By Liam FitzGibbon
October 30th 2008 @ 1:31am
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FFA upbeat despite crowd decline
Football Federation Australia is confident interest in the A-League has not waned despite a notable drop in attendances from last season. The league is averaging 11,854 fans per game after nine rounds, compared to 13,544 at the same time last season, with all eight teams experiencing declines in their average crowds.
There are concerns the league’s eight-team format has become tired, with many believing the addition of the Gold Coast and North Queensland next year will give the competition a timely boost.
But FFA chief executive Ben Buckley said today he was confident the A-League still had momentum and that this year’s competition was holding the attention of the public.
“The competition is very much alive, particularly with the prize of participation in the AFC Champions League for 2010 at stake,” Buckley said.
“The teams are close with less than two games separating the first and sixth-placed team.
“There is some real momentum in the competition, and there are some important matches this weekend for a number of teams.”
While Adelaide’s fairytale run to the Asian Champions League final is doing wonders for the A-League’s reputation, Buckley said it was a big factor in the decline in crowds.
“A significant proportion of the reduction in A-League crowds is due to Adelaide United, which has also had home games for the AFC Champions League,” Buckley said.
“So, while fewer people have gone to A-League matches, this is offset by the fact that more people have seen a A-League team in action this season than compared with any other season.
“In addition, we’ve had five Socceroos home matches this year which means around 1.2 million people have attended a first class football match in 2008 at either club or national level.”
Buckley was particularly encouraged by last weekend’s crowd figures (58,403 overall), the largest of the season which included more than 31,000 at Telstra Dome to watch Melbourne play Sydney FC.
Central Coast coach Lawrie McKinna, whose Gosford-based side has seen home attendances fall from an average of 12,741 last season to 9,536 this season, said the global financial crisis was having an impact across several sports.
“Everybody’s crowds are down, rugby league, A-League, I think it’s just the times we’re facing at the moment,” McKinna said.
“I think as the season gets more exciting and tighter we’ll see the fans come back.”
McKinna believed next year’s expansion would help the competition attract more interest.
“I think the interest is fine now but obviously with the two new teams coming in those areas it’s going to be huge and new and fresh,” McKinna said.
“We can play more games, and if it’s more games against different opposition then all the better.”
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(64)
Pippinu said | October 30th 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Just as there was never a problem with the Eureka flag, there is clearly no problem with crowd numbers.
Dave said | October 30th 2008 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Pip
Have AFL crowd figures ever gone down?
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment
warning! warning! warning!
Dave has mentioned AFL on a futbol thread. warning, warning,warning.
Remember it was Dave.
Ok, yes the AFL crowds have gone up and down, I’m looking for my website stats. Oops sorry gotta go to a meeting.
back soon with some stats to enthrall all.
Redb
Pippinu said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Dave
Probably - I know the VFL was nearly broke in the early 80s. But between you and me - I don’t really keep an eye on things like crowd numbers - my club is one of the smaller drawing clubs anyway.
Although I am interested in history, do you know that within a few years of 1858, games in Melbourne were already drawing 10,000+ spectators? That’s our history.
The World game is great, I enjoy the Victory and the A-League - but it’s not really our history.
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Redb - most football fans like me will just have noticed the 4-4 result between the Gunners and Spurs, and be wondering what excuses they can pull to go home and watch what sounds like it was an incredible match ASAP. So don’t worry, we won’t bite, probably not even notice.
Pippu - aren’t A-League games also drawing 10K+ just a couple of years after the league’s inception?
(different I know)
jimbo said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Dave ,
The drop in attendances at AFL in Sydney this year is a lot worse than the drop in SFC attendances – only 18K turned up for the Swans do or die finals game.
Pip,
I remember going to an NSL game with my dad and the crowd was 825.
Despite some woeful attendances, the NSL competition ran for 27 years.
It’s not time to panic and I don’t think it’s the end of the A-League. The A-League continues to exceed initial expectations and the A-League is only a small part of the FFA’s operations. The franchise operators wear any financial losses, not the FFA. If Perth or Wellington fail, then there are other franchises that want to take their place.
Attendances will pick up for the rest of the season and every other aspect of FFA’s operations continue to grow, including TV ratings, international exposure, revenue, sponsorship and most importantly profitability.
An article in 442 today quoted a rise of 28% in Fox TV ratings already, which is on top of a 40% rise last year.
This isn’t a 150 year old competition, there will be casualties, but who knows where football will be in this country in another 150 years.
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Liam,
we are still on the move up even without the freebies other codes enjoy… With the 2010 SA WC qualification, and a new TV deal … Nothing will hold back Australian Football as the only real premier national code in this land… Fasten your seat belts and hold on to your hats.lads… 
The Sponsorship Dollars are still pouring in….
Australian Football set to grow with more teams to compete in the HAL and ACL….
~~~ SBS
The Tasmanian Football Taskforce (TFT) is in the mix with four mainland franchises, from NSW and Victoria, for admission into an expanded 14-team A-League set down for 2011-12.
The taskforce, set to be bolstered by a naming rights sponsor, say the inclusion of Tasmania United FC will add increased credibility to football’s national competition.
TFT official Ken Morton said the A-League would become a far more “national” competition than rivals AFL and NRL if Tasmania was granted a licence.
“I think it should give us (Tasmania) the edge, just being in Tasmania gives it a real A-League, a real Australian football league,” Morton told Fox Sports.
“The whole of Tasmania is behind it. They want to see us compete at national level.”
The A-League will expand to a 10-team competition next season with the additions of Gold Coast and North Queensland but the FFA are keen to increase the competition to 12, and even 14 beyond that.
A Melbourne franchise has already gained sole negotiating rights from the FFA for a place in an expected 12-team competition from 2010-11.
Bid teams from Wollongong-South Coast, Western Sydney and Canberra are also lining up for inclusion.
Morton said the performances of the Tasmanian Tigers, who have won four-day and one-day cricket titles in the past two seasons, had shown sporting success was possible for Australia’s smallest state.
“We have a good cricket team down there who compete well at national level and we believe we can do the same in the A-League,” said the former Wollongong coach.
The Tasmanian taskforce, which has the backing of the state government, has scheduled the launch of Tasmania United for November 25.
Morton said they were “very close” to closing a deal with a potential naming rights sponsor.
“Today we had good news regarding the major investor and once that is finalised in the next few days I think you will see our bid progress very aggressively,” he said.
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Dave,
Attendances since 1987 (West Coast and Brisbane added)
Year, Total crowd, ave crowd
2008 7,083,015 38,287
2007 7,050,945 38,113
2006 6,736,234 36,412
2005 6,763,852 36,561
2004 6,368,297 34,423
2003 6,351,655 34,333
2002 6,092,987 32,935
2001 6,447,560 34,852
2000 6,307,373 34,094
1999 6,243,586 33,749
1998 6,691,897 36,172
1997 6,402,997 34,611
1996 5,694,921 30,783
1995 5,712,693 30,879
1994 5,237,398 30,100
1993 4,657,489 29,666
1992 4,814,265 27,990
1991 4,178,884 24,296
1990 4,063,385 25,238
1989 3,581,822 22,386
1988 3,528,878 22,055
1987 3,411,846 21,324
I would expect crowd attendance to fall in 2009 with the economy sliding into recession.
Redb
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Jimbo,
Interesting you mention Sydney, i think most sporting teams in Sydney struggled this year.
Foxtel audience increased 7% for HAL games.
Redb
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Dave asked “Have AFL crowd figures ever gone down?”
Most recent crop drop was in 2006, a 1.27% decrease from 2005 (however, 2005 had seen a 6.33% increase over 2004 - - therefore, the 2006 figure continued the upward trending of 2003 and 2004 prior).
This is important, because, while the 60K decrease to Rnd 9 for the HAL this year is of concern, the greater concern is that the crowd aggregate is 20K down on V2 and not that far off V1. It’s quite one thing to take 3 steps forward and 1 back, it’s quite another to take 3 steps forward and 2.5 back.
Pippinu allueded to the 1980s - - this was a dire time for the old VFL, but, also having to ‘break’ the ‘national’ concept through the barriers of old school suburban mentality.
Avg crowds had grown to 25K by 1981, but, the advent of the South relocation among other things saw crowds drop 4 years running to just over 20.5K. There was a 9% upward rebound in ‘86 and then a startling drop of 14% in ‘87. Since then though, the over whelming trend has been upwards form the 1987 crowd avg of sub 20K. In the main, downward fluctuations overall have been relative to MCG redevelopments and reduced capacities.
The befuddling aspect of the HAL presently is probably MVFC - - - it’s been known that SFC and Roar have been stagnating since V1. The regional sides as is the exposure of too many regional sides in such a competition, that financial ‘crises’ can hit hardest in the regional areas. MVFC however, in Melbourne, has been bouyant and the corner stone of HAL crowds - - they’ve had a very successful start to the year, and pre-season, and their first taste of ACL - - and yet, there crowds have been free falling when ALL logic demands otherwise. Melbourne, the city, afterall gave us record AFL memberships and crowds.
- - - - -
KB - your faith in the value of ‘expansion’ is wonderful - - -however,
if the global financial crisis is so great impacting the ‘established’ franchises - - then, is now REALLY the time to be attempting to start up brand new clubs??? With sponsorship at a premium, with crowds yet to be wooed?
The notion that 4 years in the HAL is a ‘tired’ concept and needing of new teams………that’s a concern isn’t it? It remains to be seen how the fixturing of 10 teams are handled? Will the HAL reduce to an 18 round competition (and thus stay ‘fresh’), or, expand out to a 27 round competition (won’t that just increase the ‘tiresome’ factor??) - - - or will it become a bit of a compromised fixture like the AFL? IN many respects, the sooner the HAL is 12 teams playing a 22 round H&A the better (that was, for the old VFL, such a fabulous ‘fit’ from a fixturing perspective.)
btw - a lesson from history about expansion.
1924 - VFL crowds avg 20,494 for 72 H&A games.
1925 with the addition of 3 clubs (Hawthorn, Footscray and North Melb) - VFL crowds avg drops 21.27% to 16,135 over the 102 games……………..however, there was an aggregate increase of 170,000 ‘attendees’ over the full season.
chris said | October 30th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
i read a couple articles yesterday regarding a league ratings. One article had it at 24% or something and another at around the 7% mark. Dont know which one is correct, either figure is positive.
In terms of crowds, I predict that over the next ten years a league crowds will average between 10 and 17k. I think this season will perhaps be toughest for the aleague, acouple reasons why: 1)only 8 teams, old format 2) economic downturn 3)olympics 4)adelaides crowds being effected due their afc run. 5)sydney poor decision to appoint aloisi as marquee and queensland failing to win at home (what is the go there????????????????).
I think things will start picking up again next year, gradually?
ALthough lets not forget a-league crowds are still very respectable. Take out the Queensland teams out of the nrl and you would have an average similar to that of the aleauge if not lower.
Dave said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
So crowd figures are only one indicator and as mentioned above and rightly pointed out by the FFA (what are they supposed to do when crowd figures are down close the league until we can guarentee better attendances?) there are other indicators which point to a healthy comp - teams queing up to get in, TV ratings up, sponsorships at all time high, bigger comp next season, media mentions/interest up etc
Pip
l do enjoy most of your contributions but…the FFA bashing gets a little tiresome after a while. Sure they are not perfect and make mistakes but its all only 3-4 years old. By all means point out wrongs that need to be addressed but compared to what we had for decades before these guys deserve a medal. They have given me something that l genuinely didn’t think l would see in my lifetime…an Oz domestic football comp which is competitive, diverse, interesting, at a fairly high technical level and which is drawing good, sometimes fantasic crowds with increasing media attention and a link into leagues outside this country. My son has a pathway to elite football at the local level etc etc
redb
I take full responsibility for mentioning AFL and duly await my sentence…
Also thanks for your research although not really required…l did notice the AFL crowds dropped 400,000 in 2002 (MC will fill us in on the reason) and they all came back to play again the next season!
jimbo said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Redb,
This is the article:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/87736,footy-ratings-hit-new-tv-highs.aspx
and I interpert that as referfing to all their football coverage and not just HAL. “Average audiences are up by 28 percent on last year,”
While in some respects falling attendances are of some concern, focusing just on attendances at HAL matches in a catastrophic global financial crisis (as Rudd puts it) is not a true indication of how the FFA and football are travelling.
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Jimbo,
Article from the Australian yesterday.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24568706-2722,00.html
So the GFC is inadequte it should now be CGFC.
HAL crowds have levelled off, I think your right if TV ratings were dropping as well that would be a greater cause for concern.
Dave,
Taking responsibility is the first step towards redemption.
Redb
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:28am | Report comment
The Sydney Swans were mentioned -
They actually had an increase in their SCG attendance average for season 2008 - - up from 25,222 over 8 matches to 24.076 over 6 matches.
Perhaps the ‘greedy’ move??, or at least testing the water - was to play 4 rather than three matches at Homebush.
in 2007, those 3 matches averaged 63,392 (noting that no previous year had the Swans averaged over 50,000 for their 3 annual Homebush matches.
The 2007 figures were well and truely out of the box - so to speak - - the 2007 Homebush figures were a 40.9% rise on 2006. The drop from 2007 to 2008 was -27.7% to an avg of just under 46K (still very healty, and the 3rd best for the Swans at that venue over 2002-2008). The reality is that taking 2007 out of the equation - the 2008 crowd avg figure for Homebush (for 1 extra match) was the bettered ONLY in 2003.
That’s the importance of understanding the context - relative to the previous year, or the longer term trend.
Generally - I’ve steered clear of ‘finals’ matches in crowd comparisons - - and we know only too well the danger of a large venue for an interstate finals match - - there’s no need to rush out and buy tickets - - and when the weather forecast is ugly and it goes crap in the immediate lead up - then, people won’t bother buying tickets to NOT turn up………….as we saw with the Socceroos at Suncorp recently………the crap weather plays a fair part in scaring off those who HAVE bought tickets, let alone anyone who hasn’t yet.
btw - the Swans this year dropped overall -7.87% (as indicated though, they didn’t drop at the SCG - only at Homebush)
The previous 3 seasons increased by over 10% in total - the position the Swans crowd average is at is an interesting one……..normally it’s been upwards or downwards from the 32K figure - - however, Homebush vs the SCG will play a part going forwards, as will the redevelopment of the SCG as that has impacted SCG crowds (presumably) to a degree.
jimbo said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Redb,
classic examples of the difference in media coverage of football, depending on your commercial interests.
442 is in the same media stable as the owners of Foxtel and they don’t focus on crowd figures – they put a positive spin on the overall growth in Pay TV for all their Aussie football coverage, including the Socceroos and Adelaide in the ACL.
The Australian is owned by the media scrum that have invested heavily in NRL in the eastern states and AFL in the southern states – their focus is a negative spin on falling HAL attendances and mention only the modest increase in HAL TV coverage and ignore the tremendous interest in the Socceroos and Adelaide in the ACL.
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Re Suncorp and the 30K crowd due to the poor weather, where is Oikee lately? He’s always banging on about Suncorp, if the game was played at Docklands we would have closed the roof and got 50,000.
Redb
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Dave -
2002 and 2003 were interesting times - -
there was some heavy ‘political’ impact on fixturing as the AFL effectively sacrificed crowds by conducting big games at Telstra Dome rather than the MCG to effectively force the MCC into agreeing to a flexible compromise around the finals MCG matches that allowed the AFL to effectively ‘bank’ games and allow interstates sides to ‘earn the right’ to host interstate preliminary finals.
That was a very frustrating phase, as the AFL was playing their own game………that in truth was of it’s own (previous administrations) making.
2003 - interestingly, this was the season that the MCG Olympic/Ponsford stand redevelopment was in full swing - the year of a sub 80K Grand Final.
why was 2003 up 400K on 2002? More to the point, why was 2002 the low point? btw - Redb provided the total figure including finals.
—- btw - - - why the focus on attendance?
on the SMH flog, people generally in the first 3 years would tip result……….and crowd……..gleefully anticipating the rise and rise of soccer and the HAL…….suddenly, the crowd tipping seems to have lost favour.
In the early days on the SMH flog, they would often refer to the AFL and NRL etc - - it seems that soccer folk from the outset have been seeking to benchmark themselves………….so…………why stop now?
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Jimbo and others - even though as you all know I am a football fan, we can’t be complacent about the crowd numbers and just assume an upturn again based on external factors. Yes ratings are gradually rising on Fox as more and more people become familiar with the game and “into” it. But a key part of football is the atmosphere that live attendance brings.
I think Sydney needs a community investment and plan that guarantees 20K to each and every game. Any less is a disgrace. Not the least of which because Melbourne beats us hands down in terms of the attendance of Victory crowds - even on a bad day. We should work towards the aggregate of Sydney and Melbourne crowds bringing a total 50K each week as the crowd ‘backbone’ of the league. I don’t think that’s an unrealistic target.
Perth and Wellington also need a “fan plan” for different reasons. They are very remote and only get a couple of games each month at home, with the next closes in each case being over 1000km away. So if a new fan goes to a match that is a dud on field or in terms of low/boring crowds there is nowhere to go in terms of redemption for the code for those guys. The problem is compounded because those cities are each dominated by another code. Each and every interaction with the HAL in those most remote of places needs to be a good one. Same will apply to Townsville when it joins.
The same applies at a lesser level for the other centres, but to me there needs to be a concerted addressing of the Sydney issue, and of the most remote HAL cities as the starting point for a live audience plan. The near-term (seasons 5 to 7) objective should be to aim for a normal-round average of 15K with no single match falling below 10K.
In any case, while Redb and MC might not always bring up crowd numbers in the spirit of helping ourr code achieve its great destiny
I do think they highlight an issue that we can and should work on as a game. We’ve had a good start but we need to capitalise on that and not be complacent in terms of the next steps for growth.
True Tah said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Why would FFA be worried about crowds - the government will not let FFA fail, nor will the FFA let any club fall over. It makes a lot of money from Socceroos matches, and I dont think there is any doubt that Australia will qualify for 2010.
It would be interesting to see as a % of total revenue, how much government grants are for each code. The FFA Financial Report should be coming out soon and I will be interested to see the improvement which I expect there to be.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Dave
It’s the obligation of every Victory member to bash the FFA - without mercy.
The FFA will never, ever do the Victory a favour.
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
re the foxtel average audiences being up on last year -
that’s nice.
The abnormals - you gotta be careful about adding them to the bottom line -
the quote was “Much of this spike has been due to Adelaide United’s extraordinary success in Asia.”
And that’s the 28% vs the 7% factor.
re. the 7% factor - - for the HAL alone………….
well…….starting point is that 60,000 bums on seats to this time last year have stayed home to watch!! (swings and round abouts)
It’s sort of good news…………but……….be careful how much you’d be willing to bet on the fall of the dice on the value of these figures.
For now - the biggest challenge is still to attract the Foxtel international soccer viewers to give the foxtel HAL coverage a go…………the soccer family still has to keep focussing on engaging it’s extended family rather than worrying too much about what fans of other codes may or may not think. I’d've thought.
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Lads,
Ray Gatt, is a Grooky advocate and has always in the past written damming articles about football .. Nonetheless, its interesting to see him mellowing alot more in the wake of Melb V with its 31k .. Eventually he will realise that Football will be just as popular as Marn Grook in Melbourne and his days are numbered… I have read the representative of Fox with his unbiased opinion as they have all code ratings.. Therefore, I would never take too much notice from a Melburnian scribe who fears that his job is under threat … I think it’s called Smell the Fear syndrome…
One last point, I think we have seen that in Football we have more home teams losing at home than any other code in Australia … I am puzzled the reasons why we have in Australia teams doing better on the road than playing in front of their home crowd.. If one was to imagine that all teams in the HAL get their act together and start winning at home It should be an instant 30% increase in home attendances with overall HAL figures… C’mon lads start winning at home …
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Millster,
Remember it was Dave.
Redb
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:06am | Report comment
KB,
I’ve never heard of Ray Gatt, he does not write for the Herald Sun. The Australian has very poor circulation in Melbourne it is viewed as a Sydney centric paper. They were giving it away here for ten cents a few years ago.
Redb
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:11am | Report comment
TT,
you have mentioned the FFA Annual Report; did you make an inquiry to the FFA to see the AR online..? And did they reply to your request..?
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Ray Gatt????
who’s he?
now I’m going to have to google him…….you realise……..
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
KB -
what are you on about
“On 28/2/1999 Australian soccer journalist Ray Gatt was present at the induction of Australian Soccers first Hall of Fame inductees. ”
me thinx you’re confusing football with Football.
!?!?!?!?!??
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Redb,
please let me bring you up to speed. He has written in the past some very bitchy pieces about the “Australian National Football Team” during their 2006 WC campaign that I have read .. Nice to see some stuff coming out of his key board with less “Smell the Fear” about it so to leave him with an opportunity to switch camps so he will be still able to feed his family…
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
KB -
a quote off a fox sports blog :
Oh, come off it. Ray Gatt, whether you admire him or not, has stayed pretty loyal to football when no-one in this country gave a frog’s fat ass about it. He isn’t out to knock football down a a few pegs. Football isn’t a criticism-free zone. Criticising one aspect of it doesn’t suddenly make you a dastardly conspirator.
Tue 12 Dec 06 at 07:34pm
KB - - - just what IS your criteria for ‘grooky’ advocates????
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:27am | Report comment
KB -
guess who wrote the biography of 1974 Socceroos coach Rale Rasic??
You guessed it, that long time soccer tragic Ray Gatt.
It seems to me, that he MIGHT just be one of the very few soccer journos with some integrity, i.e. willing to call a spade a spade………..and eveidently you’re capacity to recognise a spake is limited when given the option and told to take your pick.
True Tah said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment
KB,
i did make a request, and have got a pdf copy emailed to me.
It is for the year ended 30 June 07, and shows a loss of $11m, which someone already mentioned.
08 should be coming up shortly, and I expect the financial position to be somewhat better, given that there have been socceroos games, etc.
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
KB -
ah,
Crowd figures on downward spiral
By Ray Gatt
September 23, 2008
A-LEAGUE crowds continue to slide this season, highlighted by concerns over the poor figures for one-time powerhouse club Perth Glory.
Latest figures show the aggregate crowd attendance up to and including round five is 235,939, down 39,621 for the same period last season. It is also a drop on season one (down 5402) and season two (4474).
So - - - - he MUST be a ‘plant’…………….to write something ‘negative’, because, like any true mob mentality……..”You’re either WITH us, or, you’re AGAINST us.”
Poor Mr.Gatt, having the temerity to report facts.
Sheesh, KB…………what will happen next? Journos reporting facts whether palatable or not? Better get that helmet out from the circa 1963 air raid shelter out back………’cos the sky is about to fall in.
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
My apologies to Ray Gatt, — I had him mix up with Gleeson Melbourne jurno — MC nice to see you are very efficient with google now try the “19klms ground covered by players quarter stat” — I shall keep you up to date with commencement of the new Grooky season.. Unless you want to confess now…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Lazza said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
It’s no real surprise why crowds have tappered off a bit this season. With only 8 teams the league has become a bit stale and you can’t have growth every year?
The other main reason is the lack of decent marquee players. You need a Dwight Yorke or Junihno to get the ‘Euro snobs” out to games let alone fans of other sports.
The league is expanding from next season and the new TV deal should give clubs the scope to attract better players from overseas.
Let’s never forget what the main game is here, the Socceroos. We don’t need a league that’s on par with the AFL or NRL, nice as that would be. We just need a decent professional league that’s a good foundation for our next generation of Socceroos.
Also, don’t forget Cricket is deemed to be a major sport in this country even though it has only the national team that attracts any crowds. There were 8 people at Adelaide Oval for the Sheffield Shield clash? Surprisingly there doesn’t seem to be any ‘debate’ here in Adelaide about all that taxpayers money that’s gone to Adelaide Oval?
Football seems to be the only sport here that has to get a full house every week before the Government will consider putting any money in.
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
KB -
if it was ‘technology’ on channel 10 that gave you that ground covered stat…………then……………’nuff said about Channel 10 cutting edge technology!!!
btw -
so, you’re hung, drawn and quartered poor Mr.Gatt………..and now that he’s safely dispatched 6 feet under we’ll see hit headstone reading
“He lies poor old Mr.Ray Gatt,
for KB did give a fatal whack,
KB sorry,identity mistaken,
Gatt gone, life foresaken,
for Gleeson was due the attack.”
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Lazza -
the smartest move for cricket over the years has been ‘letting’ footy onto their ovals…….such that now the SCG and MCG and Gabba are to varying degrees primarily AFL venues more so than cricket. (note, I said, to varying degrees).
Certainly cricket alone would’ve struggled to generate the capital works programs.
The Adelaide oval is a bit unique, but has some SANFL at least.
Lazza said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Michael C,
The dumbest thing Cricket ever did here in Adelaide was to get off-side with the SANFL and force them to buid their own stadium in the 1970’s. They have been struggling to fill Adelaide Oval since then.
While Adelaide Oval is unique, with only 9 Commonwealth countries that are interested in Cricket it’s hardly ‘World Famous’.
The same goes for the MCG by the way. It may be World Class but to be famous people around the World have to know about it?
jimbo said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Poor old Ray Gatt.
Since he fell on hard times, he was forced to go and work with the Daily Telegraph. In the same stable as the Australian and majority shareholders of the NRL.
He who pays the piper calls the tune and he now sees the football glass is half empty and has lost any credibility with true football supporters (as does any Tele journalist).
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Lazza,
The problem with the Adelaide Oval is in order to preserve its visual appeal as a cricket ground it has remained locked out of large scale grand stand development. It has the perfect position, very similar to the MCG next to the CBD, but as you say it shunned footy to its detriment and the city of Adelaide.
Dont’ even compare Adelaide Oval to the MCG, it’s not in the same league. It is irrelevant how many people in the world know about the stadium, the MCG fits it’s purpose magnificently and can match any of the major stadiums around the world for its crowd capacity and facilties in a modern stadium.
Redb
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
MC - thats pure gold!
(except for the detail that Koalas scratch rather than whack)
And Lazza hear hear. This is why I don’t think we should spend so much time measuring ourselves against the other codes, more so against analogous foreign football leagues.
Most recent J-League figures I can quickly get (’05) have it around 18K average after climbing out of a slump down to the 10-12K mark for a few years. Same figures show K-League hovering around 11 to 12K consistently with a few ‘boom’ years of 14K but not much more. Again both Japan and Korea are serious Asian confederation nations in football terms and major competition to the Socceroos for continental honours and World Cup places.
China league had a “honeymoon period” of 4-5 years of 20K+ averages in the 1990’s but has steadily declined since then to an average in ‘05 of 10K or so.
The MLS is by no means number 1 and gets decent but modest crowds yet has delivered the US mens team into the world’s top 20 and kept it there for a few years now. I don’t have true averags but have found some of the top attendance figures for 2007/08 games. Seems like major games NOT involving LA/Beckham average in the low 20’s, and some LA Galaxy games go up into the 30’s and 40’s. Their GF (not involving LA) saw 55K. The one thing that I do really envy is that new franchise Toronto FC, despite finishing bottom of the ladder, lifted season tickets from around 14000 to 16000, and only stopped there due to the club board deciding that was the right cap for 2009.
See this interesting article on how MLS sees its competition vs other sporting codes for audience:
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/575946.html
None of this paints our domestic league in a bad light. Our domestic crowds well on par with Korea and China, and the next step is to match it with Japan and (non-Becks) USA. If we could get there and sustain it, that’d be just fine by me for the next decade or two…
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
..and the interesting thing also about what I’ve just posted is the discussion about early-days MLS relying on unsuitable NFL stadia vs current day where they have custom built 30K capacity grounds.
[This won't make sense right now but I have a prior post with links that will appear in a while and give context to this comment]
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Once again pre-empting a post that will appear a touch later due to links, I now have true MLS average figures. They are 17K for 2008, having started there in MLS’s first year, dropped to about 14K for years 2 and 3, then to 11K for year 4, and then slowly and very evenly risen back over 8 years to the current mark.
Lazza said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Millster,
Football in America has the patronage of several Billionaires that have made it’s growth possible. They have just turned a profit after 15 years and have signed their most lucrative TV contract with ABC/ESPN. Yet, it will probably be another 20 years before it becomes a ‘mainstream’ sport.
When other sports talk about breaking into the US market they have to realise that without that kind of investment it just won’t happen.
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
MC,
well, well, well, made to confess finally when you said no, no, no I was telling lies …. Well glad you have confessed that you’re not infallible like the rest of us poor, poor, souls.. What was it again you said “I now do remember some experiment” after checking with your comrades.. I guess I was right after all… So there you have it folks, but still no Sorry..!! Who are you MC .. John Howard…? Well lunch time is over back to work for me…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Out of general interest I am posting the following link.
I am 100% sure that the data isn’t totally corrent (varying sources, and conflicts in some cases with what we know from elsewhere) but the overall quantums and rankings won’t be too far off the mark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Lazza - that said, mainstream or not, it is already at the same average crowd levels per game as NBA and NHL. Obviously somewhat behind baseball’s average (plus the total number of games in a baeball season makes that almost incomparable with anything else) and well behind the NFL’s which is the highest in the world I think.
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
KB -
the crap ch.10 ‘technology’ I was refering to, to use as a benchmark, was the ridiculous umpire ‘CAM’ used to weight a field umpire firmly to the earth - used during the ‘Dreamteam’ match earlier this year. I still have no knowledge or recollection of what you’re referring to, and, allowing for the inaccuracy of the Ray Gatt comment, for all I know you were watching the Tour de France…..;-)
Lazza said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Millster,
Football is doing well in the US, no doubt. Even my US sports shows on Foxtel are starting to talk ‘intelligently’ about Football.
Still has work to do though, that’s all I’m saying.
Don’t forget there are only 16 regular season games in the NFL, it’s probably the shortest professional league in the World. If they had 40 games per season I don’t think their crowds would be as high.
True Tah said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Lazza and Millster,
dont forget college sports in the US as well, in particular college football and basketball which would get bigger averages than the MLS, one of the stadiums has a capacity of over 100,000. The NFL is the pinnacle, just like the EPL has the leagues below it and a system of P & R, the NFL and NBA have their college system.
I agree the MLS is doing well for itself these days, it has upwards of 25 million registered players, which is almost as much as the UK and probably more than France or Italy, so that it a helpful start.
Personally I think Rugby and Cricket will be nothing more than a partipation sport in the US, because they already have similar games (NFL and Baseball).
Michael C said | October 30th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
At various times, the biggest crowds at the MLS were there for a ‘higher order’ match with which the MLS match formed a ‘double header’. This compromises some crowd comparisons over the journey.
Invariably, the teams based out of NFL type venues have the crappier crowd numbers compared to those with the boutique stadiums - - and so, the whole question about the main value in soccer attendance being the atmosphere generated by effectively a sporting mosh pit???
Perhaps a warning to those coveting a bevy of 40K,50K venues throughtout Australia just in case we host the FIFA WC…….
btw - - -
It’s interesting that it’s deemed valid to compare Australian soccer crowds (given a domestic population so vastly smaller than Japan and double the smaller relative to the US) to J-League and MLS - - given the larger domestic populations in those nations and the less competitive a ‘football’ market that each of those nations offers.
It could be that Australia - even if ‘matching’ them, does in effect put them to shame.
Or, it may be that Millster might be foretelling at least an 8-10 year period of ‘growing pains’ just being entered into.
Koala Bear said | October 30th 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
MC,
A simple sorry will do (John), or will I have to wait until next season to bring it to your attention again… ?
sorry, no Tour de France on a 2pm Saturday afternoon on CH 10 but I’m not surprised you have no knowledge of what I am referring to as again you said “I’m too involve with my own team on a Saturday avo”.. Well as bad as channel 10 are, says you, I was watching the watchers… “19klms stats per quarter” …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | October 30th 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
MC - on your last point, exactly why we can’t be compacent andrest totally on “but its a world game so it will grow” arguments. We need a plan and a strategy and some clever investment in its success. We also need to find the right ways to work with other codes when appropriate; not always against.
Working backwards through your post, people here may not realise that overall Aussies pay an enormous attention to sport. Yes we put Japan and a bunch of other countries to shame simply because we have a vast majority that has “some” interest in sport (whatever sport that is), when those other countries may have smaller sports audiences with others preferring the arts, movies, or other pursuits. So yes I totally agree that the fact we can even be talking about 4 professional football-type codes in a country of 20 million, notwithstanding all the other sports that are followed and played here, is quite a peculiar thing.
And in a sense this leads to the first point you make about venues. I’m on record before calling for the HAL / rectangular venues here to be built to a 25-ish K capacity maximum; and I have Canberra Stadium in mind as an ideal model venue. Even with the current ACL hoo-haa around Hindmarsh, surely its only when AU get close to sell-out to every single game that expansion makes sense. The fact that it will sell out for a couple of big one-off games is not a business case for its expansion. Looking into the future, surely these 25K stadia can be designed to be temporarily expanded for a potential WC bid. The only downside is that this puts the onus still on the major current stadia (MCG, TD, and better suited Sydney and Qld venues) to host the big international blockbusters and finals - meaning that the modification of the biggest grounds in the land to be “multi-use” will remain a priority - but one that makes sense over building rectangualr monoliths that will inevitably be under-utilised.
Towser said | October 30th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
http://www.kolkatafootball.com/new_article.html
Glad to see nothing changes on the Roar. Still the same posters with the same banter.
However I noticed this heading & as I predicted that the A-League would suffer a fall in crowds this season as per the MLS & particularly the J-League did in their 4th season, as they say in Yorkshire “al stick mi neb in”.
I also said at one stage that the A-league is a dead duck without Asia & its growth is intrinsically linked to the growth of Asian football. The success of Adelaide United in the ACL is the first signs of the of the region starting to change the embryo into a chick in this country. The above article(From India & the English is a bit askew) gives a very good overview of what problems Asia(therefore us) needs to overcome in the future . The main one being the power & dynamics of European football. Be warned its lengthy so avoid if not interested.
Essentially what it is indicating to me is that it is impossible(given the strength of European football) for all but a few football leagues in Asia to succeed. We are mentioned as one of these leagues. It is essentially about the ability of the Asian region to lift the standard of the Asian player to a level where its possible that one day an Asian nation will win the World Cup. & it proposes that those few chosen Asian leagues should be the magnet that draws the cream of Asian football talent to them.
The Japanese clubs are already exploiting this allowing another visa player from Asia on their books. We will need to follow if we are to become one of the top say 5 or so Asian Leagues. In other words if the region wants to attract the sort of money that Asian billionaires & media is throwing at the EPL etc so Asian football can grow it will take some clever strategies by the AFC & countries like Japan & Australia to be put in place.(AFC already has reduced the ACL next year to 11 teams & increased prize money five fold) One future A-League club,Gold Coast United has already publically acknowledged the need for more Asian players in the A-League,the other clubs will follow eventually.
I was at the Roar the other Friday & sat next to a Frenchman who was constantly comparing the Roar players with Arsenal & Fabregas particularly. Whilst on one level his unrealistic comparison pissed me off ,it forced me to look at what was in front of me & assess the improvements in the A-League from what I saw in Season One to Season Four. To be frank (no pun intended) the basics of professional football ie the ability to string together a few passes & keep possession were sadly lacking,particularly on the part of the Roar. Adelaide were marginally better.
Then it made me think hang on isnt Adelaide the same team I’ve watched in the ACL looking very much as though a polished passing possession game was second nature to them. Adelaide were playing to the Roars standards.
In reality last seasons crowds were an aberration in relation to football standard. This seasons crowds are truly reflecting where A-League football is really at on a par with season 1 or season 2 at best.
So what that indicates to me(Adelaides ACL form) is that already the ACL is influencing our football. In future when more of our teams have participated in the ACL the standard will improve & so will the crowds as per MLS & J-League.
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
welcome back Towser.
Redb
Lazza said | October 30th 2008 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Towser,
Agree with everything you’ve written. Asia is the future.
They have just signed an Englishmen to be the commercial director of the ACL. I’ve seen an interview with him where he pointed out that there are 2.7 Billion people in our region. It’s not inconcievable that in 20-30 years time this comp could be bigger than European Champions League. Certainly has the potential and the fan base.
Redb said | October 30th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
Towser,
I’ve asserted in the past on the Roar that the standard of the ACL can’t be that good if Adelaide can beat these teams relatively easily. Particularly when Melb Victor beat them easily awhile back and with the limitations of the salary cap.
Whilst i would agree playing better opposition does lift and improve your performance, what do you think of that comment?
Now that AU are in the final against what i assume is a high quality J-League team - will they get creamed, noting the lack of salary cap restriction?
Redb
Towser said | October 30th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Redb
My thoughts are that the top club teams in Asian football are of a decent standard technically. It would be unrealistic to compare them say with the Football Leagues I know the best,ie English Football. as the lower the division goes the more the teams really on physicality stamina etc.
The top Asian teams are probably at a similar level to say the clubs at the lower end of the French or Dutch first division,but lack the physical strength in general of Europeans due to the smaller stature of people in most Asian nations.
Australian teams & players also have it over Asian teams in this respect.
In relation to Adelaide United add the technical skills of their Brazilians(relishing the less physical ACL in comparison to the A-League) to the physical dominance of Aussie players(Travis Dodds