By Michael C
November 4th 2008 @ 1:38am
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A-League crowds will be down 133k this season
There have been articles referring to the A-League crowd slump. I’m sticking with known facts to make some HAL attendance projections for the second half of V4. This is designed to illustrate just what the significance of the crowd decline so far might extrapolate to by the seasons end.
And just what hope there is within the last eleven rounds for a venue-by-venue rise in crowds over the run home.
So far this season, crowds are down more than 84,000 on V3, and are sitting in between V2 and V1. This, of course, does not take into account Adelaide United’s ACL crowds, which have been very good at home and a nice boost for their coffers.
We know that V1 to V2 saw an increase in overall attendances, almost exclusively due to the MVFC moving to TD. They drew an extra 160,000 people through the gate compared to V1.
In V3, the Wellington Phoenix accounted for 83,000 of the overall 140,000 increase.
The question for V4 was always, “Where will the improvement come from?”
Anyone with common sense could see that improvement hadn’t been as ‘even’ across the board as it would be preferred. So far, this has been answered in the double negative across the board. Not just that no-one is so far offering improvement, but that all clubs are suffering from a home crowd decline.
Using the ‘record high’ of V3 as the benchmark, all clubs are down on crowd averages on the completion of round 10 V4 versus the completion of round 10 V3.
In the past, some teams have experienced a late season ’surge’, or at least increase, in attendances in the run home to the finals. So a forecast allowing for the best exhibited increase in crowds for each venue from round 10 onwards looks like this:
Rnd 10: this is the current ’status’, in all cases a decline of round 10 V4 vs round 10 V3.
Best: Exhibited Rise from round 10 onwards in any previous season for each venue. NJ’s figure is skewed positively based on V2 increase from 7,300 in round 10 to 11,400 at season’s end. However, this is the rate of increase applied for ‘best case’. How likely is it?
Need percentage” the percentage increase on round 10 average to achieve a season average to match last year’s full season average crowd for each venue (nb. this is independent of the number of games).
Forecast Total Variance: using the best case percentage change from round 10 onwards, the sum total variation in crowd aggregates. The bracketed correction is for fairness, given 10 games vs 11 last year. However, the same correction is not used where there is only 10 games this year vs 11 games last year. So, for the overall impact, ignore the bracketed corrected figure. This clearly illustrates that Brisbane, Sydney and Wellington have a lot of work to do.
Rnd 10 Best Need% NeedAvg Forecast Total Var
QLD -16% 19% 68% 20,224 -52,526 (-35,575)
Well -37% -1% 107.5% 15,282 -36,047(inc 1 more game)
SFC -7% 7% 30% 18,521 -32,692 (-16,319)
NJs -6% 57% 27.4% 14,766 +3832 (+17,009)
CCM -2% 30% 61.6% 15,407 -5070 (inc 1 extra game)
MVFC -13% -2% 17% 27,906 -1173 (inc 1 extra game)
PG -0.7% 3% 8.11% 7892 -9333 (-1737)
AdeU -19% 9% 38.7% 13,602 -139 (+11,186)
MVFC for example, has 11 Telstra Dome games this year. The -1173 drop forecast is even with an extra game compared to last year. So the real terms (corrected) drop would be more around 25,000, give or take.
This gives you an idea of the Wellington scenario.
The overall figures (not using ‘corrected’), indicate, that even with best case (exhibited) crowd increases at each venue – that aggregate crowds will be down about 133,000 at season end. A drop of about 11% and just ahead of the V2 figure.
For reference, the mid case would be a drop of 187,000 and the worst case a drop of 232,000.
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jimbo said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:20am | Report comment
MC,
’
won’t be long before the A-League goes broke and AFL takes over the rest of Australia.
True Tah said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:24am | Report comment
MC,
I think Sydney FC’s crowds will increase following last weekends game, and Adelaide shoudl increase on the back of a successful ACL campaign (it already is a success). MV are doing pretty well do.
The big problems are Perth, Wellington and Queensland Roar, the Roar should be dominating, but there are talks about going to Ballymore, why would they do that?
Dave said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
l look forward to the same analysis when the AFL crowds drop next season.
Unusual timing when 2 teams had there best crowds of the season in the last round SFC and AU.
Taking into account AUs ACL exploits more people have watched them this season at home than any of their years of existance…3 x capacity crowds with many tens of thousands unable to go to these games due to the small capacity of Hindmarsh. They just had their best HAL crowd of the season over 13,000.
MV was always going to have a levelling off season or two from their incredible growth early on…from 0 to 16,000 to 27,000. Their crowds are averaging just under 24,000 and with both SFC and AU to come plus the run into the finals (hopefully) their ave will probably be up on last season by the end…dont forget 55,000 also paid to see MV during the group stage of the ACL so add those figures in and their total attendances are probably up for this year.
QR are just dreadful at home and l’m suprised that anyone would go and watch them play at Suncorp…the fact that they have won only a handful of games at home in 3 1/3 seasons and still ave 12,000-13,000 is remarkable.
NJ and CCM will both ave around the same as last season as the run into the finals comes up with possibly NJ more likely to suffer a drop as they struggle on the field.
PG are not far off par and with signs of onfield performance improving will expect them to actually show a slight increase on last year.
SFC are a problem child but last week had their best attendance for a CCM match during the season over 18,000 a figure that almost matched the Swans finals crowd a month or two ago…maybe signs of improvement?
WP are in a slump both on and off the field…they struggle to score and definetly are not great to watch so in sense understandable their crowds have dropped. The weather has also been terrible for several games and that doesn’t help.
MC
You have raised the HAL attendances regularly since the start of the season…l just hope you keep mentioning them as crowds improve with the lead in to the finals. You didnt mention about the improvement in pay tv ratings this year and in the past 2 weeks MV’s games have both had on or over 100,000 viewers. Again comparable to some AFL and NRL games.
Keep up the good work but dont drop off when things turn around.
Dave said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:42am | Report comment
TT
QR are moving admin to Ballymore. At this stage no movement of games there but it must be expensive to hire Suncorp. l dont know what the crowd break even figure is but they would need more than 13,000 ave me thinks.
Is Ballymore close to the city centre and does it have good access, public transport? What is its capacity?
True Tah said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Dave
Im not sure about Ballymore being close to the city, but the capacity used to be about 24K, the Qld Govt is contributing $4.2m to upgrade it, I understand it will be the training base for both the Roar and the Reds.
Suncorp is probably closer to public transport, with plenty of pubs close by, I think its about a 10 minute walk from Brisbane CBD.
Slippery Jim said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Shouldn’t this article be under the “AFL” propaganda tab?
Couldn’t you have just put it in one line Michael C – ‘attendances are down in the A-League – good times for football haters everywhere’…I just can’t see the point of this article except to have a cheap gloat, it doesn’t say anything relevant at all.
Millster said | November 4th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Can someone please do an analysis of the growth in people who bought a ticket to football of any kind (Socceroos, ACL, A-League, exhibition matches) over the last 5 years, and perhaps also taking 1998 as a ‘10-year-ago snapsot’ point. I think we will be most happy at the growth in support for our code even if it is not all directed only at our domestic comp.
oikee said | November 4th 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
It does say something to me slippery jim, times are tough and i dont think rugby league will be expanding in a hurry, not after last years lousy crowds, think we had a couple of games where we only had 6 thousand turn up. Bottom teams yes, but still its not a good look when you think that AFL had a increase of everything across the board. And things wont improve for league but soccer has the best chance to improve and considering hard times is doing ok.
That move to ballymore would obviously be to save money, they are taking a pounding in brisbane with the roar gate not acheiving as planned, so a move to a smaller ground would be good for them at the momment. Once the crowds pick up then you just move back, no big deal. Also dont forget the roar can get 40 thousand when they are winning towards the end of the season. Brisbane mentality is they love winners, they would get behind the queensland reds if they were winning.
Losing is something we are not accustomed too.
Dave said | November 4th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Speaking of HAL clubs good to see some excitement building in SA for the upcoming ACL final as from the FFA website:
“Adelaide celebs get behind The Reds
Tuesday, 4 November 2008
Nova’s Jules, Fitzy & Lisa. A number of South Australia’s celebrities are getting behind Adelaide United as the club takes on Japan’s Gamba Osaka in the AFC Champions League Final.
They may be in a battle for ratings but popular radio breakfast presenters from Triple M (Kym, Ali & Dzelde), Nova 919 (Fitzy, Jules & Lisa) and SAFM (Amber, Rabbit & Cosi) are all cheering on The Reds as the club attempts to become the unprecedented champions of Asian club football.
Adelaide’s commercial television networks’ nightly news services have also thrown their support behind the team, Channel 7 and Channel 9’s new presenters proudly leading the charge.
The Reds’ achievements in reaching the prestigious Final have ‘united’ the whole of South Australia and put Adelaide on the world football map, and supporters are expected to turn out in their droves at major LIVE sites across Adelaide to watch the two legs of the Final.
And while Adelaide is being taken in by the hype of Reds fever, football fans from around Australia are also pledging their support for the club as Coach Aurelio Vidmar and the boys represent the country in front of the estimated millions that will be following the game on television, radio and online.
It all kicks off in Osaka on Wednesday 5 November before the return match at Hindmarsh Stadium on November 12. Kick-Off for the 1st leg in Japan is at 8.30pm (ACDT).
Adelaide United FC would like to thank everyone who has proudly been supporting the club throughout the AFC Champions League journey and the Hyundai A-League, and also wants to convey its sincere gratitude to fans of other Hyundai A-League clubs that have wished the team luck throughout the competition.”
Although the title seems a an oxymoron if ever l’ve seen one (Adelaide and celebrity)
Towser said | November 4th 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
. I predicted a major drop in crowds this year ages ago. In fact 133K is conservative. I predict more in fact. More like 200-250k in line historically with the MLS & J-League.
Dont even need to super analyse the figures .Just need to go to Roar matches at home & watch whats presented on the park. Is it better than season 3-No or season 1 maybe. Probably on a par with season 2.
Most Roar fans except the rose coloured glasses brigade feel the same. Hence the crowd drop till football reaches a standard that for my team the Roar deserves the average of 17,000 last year.
The last home game was abysmal & deja vu resulting in an outporing of emotion by Roar fans & an article in the Courier Mail by their leading sports columnist expressing the fans discontent.
So Dave theres your explanation for the Roars crowds this season . Pure & simply the display at home over the 4 seasons.
I would say in one way or another in differing ways but for the same basic reason-football standard this would apply to other clubs.
The one shining light is the quality of football shown by AU in the ACL. That is a more keeping possession sharp passing technical game. As I said in a previous post this is the same Adelaide United who beat the Roar at Suncorp the other week & played to the opposition. In other words the aerial long ball heading ping pong garbage was paramount. As I may have said before the ultra critical Frenchman next to me called it “Park Football” he wasn’t coming back anytime soon.. Fans leaving the stadium including me couldn’t disagree. Hence the forthcoming newspaper article.
As more teams participate in the ACL the influence of Asian clubs on our A-League will increase. Will CCM & NUJ play kick & rush football next year in the ACL. Not likely if they wish to progress past the first round & pocket some more cash.
The only thing in this article that I would acknowledge is the mention of the Wellington Phoenix.
I’m starting to get a deja -vu NZ Knights feel about them.
Not good.
Dave
Regarding Ballymore. Its close to the city. In particular its close to me. 10 minutes drive away. But Suncorp is only 3 minutes more so personally neither are an issue.
Some fans have complained that it is less accessible to them than Suncorp & I get their point. Particularly those who come by train from the outer suburbs. They will have to change to go to Ballymore rather than just walk to the ground from the station as per Suncorp. But I’m sure Shuttle buses etc could be arranged.
Lets face it Rugby fans used it for years & they seemed to have no problem getting there & filling it on occassions.
As for the ground itself ,the training surface is better than Richlands(origonal Roar base) according to Craig Moore when the Socceroos trained there before the Qatar match. There is talk of a major upgrade to Ballymore so that its all seated(depending on funds available) so if this happens I see the Roar playing there as its capacity(25,000) is more suited to their crowds except for one or twothat could be moved to Suncorp anyway.
Personally either way I dont care both grounds suit me. I’m more concerned that the Roar improve their showing at home than where they play to be honest.
Joe FC said | November 4th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment
No doubt Michael C HAL crowds will be down this season compared to last, by how much remains to be seen. However total attendances at HAL, ACL, WCQ & ACQ matches will be up this season over last, as will television audiences & merchandise sales.
Towser said | November 4th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Oikee
Cannot disagre with the “winning ” mentality in Brisbane.
Regardless of what the Roar do away their home record is hampering their ability to grow in Brisbane.
Lazza said | November 4th 2008 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Michael C,
Adelaide UTD are generating huge interest here in Adelaide. Interest in the AFL may have peaked over here though. Port Powers’ crowds were down to less than 19k for many games. The showdown used to be the hardest ticket to get but this year only 33k went to the game. AAMI has a capacity of 52000?
Is this the start of a long term decline or just a one off? At least the A-League has new “cashed up” teams joining the league and then there’s the ‘bounce’ they should get from the World Cup in 18 months time.
The other interesting thing over here is how the ‘redneck’ Football bashers now seem to be in the minority. As former local polly Chris Schact said “if we don’t embrace Global sports we’ll end up just being an AFL backwater”. Whatever your preferences there is no doubt that the ACL has done more to put Adelaide on the sporting map than the AFL ever could.
Koala Bear said | November 4th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
There he goes again…
I’m speechless.. I have no speech Mr Christian … Enough of you, you Grooky vagabond .. 
This year has definitely been the hardest; several reasons why with the distractions of the China Olympics and NRL WC and Marn Grook false centenary celebrations; with recession talk that may soon be imminent.. However, I have noticed that, (although I have not made any real study into this) the fact that the home teams have lost more often at home than on the road is to my mind the major factor of the drop in attendances .. But my gut feeling is as Dave has pointed out that, the tide is finally turning on this season; it still may end up below last season’s figures.. However, I take comfort when MC writes a negative article; just after a good round of HAL figures ..
I like to think he is my barometer; when he writes negatively; things in Football terms are starting to rise, and when he does not write then you know the position is bad .. Ho hum… Off to the CRSL for the cup .. tally ho Football lover, Football will win in the end.. with the federal government to pour more and more taxpayers dollars into the FFA coffers… good on ya Kev2018….
~~~~~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | November 4th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Omen tip for today’s Melb Cup for the ACL game tomorrow night – Red Lord.
Hope AU have more chance of winning.
Millster said | November 4th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Zero cheers says it all in terms of this article.
Norm said | November 4th 2008 @ 5:47pm | Report comment
Michael C took up your challenge Millster & gave himself a cheer.
Michael C said | November 4th 2008 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
Millster -
just thought I’d put some numbers to it………..critical analysis is bereft if unquantified.
Towser -
the ‘worst case’ scenario using the methodology was -236K, and the mid case was -186K.
Just in general guys – - it’s more about ‘expectations’. And – - I reckon Oikee was about the only one to really pick up on the purpose of all this. The potential expansion plans for several codes may well be getting slight delays – - because, even if Australia copes better with the GFC than most others, if the HAL is suffering in this manner so soon, then, how much worse will it all get before it gets better?
Lazza -
and Adelaide United are such a prime example – - that the ACL is making clear that people are making a ‘choice’ re. the football attendance………i.e. if they go to the ACL, then they quite likely won’t be going to the HAL. How much HAL soccer impacts AFL in Adelaide, who really knows – - but, good on Ade Utd for making themselves ‘hot’ by NOT switching out of Hindmarsh.
btw – showdown 1 in rnd 3, the Crows home match drew over 45K, and showdown 2 for 2008, a Power home match drew just under 32K – back in Rnd 16,…….where a few players such as Chad Cornes were playing that week ONLY because it was a ’showdown’ and then went straight off to surgery paddocks, as Power had about 4 weeks earlier already pulled the pin on the season.
btw –
I was off today, Cup day and all, so, I thunked I’d best leave a couple of threads so anyone who wanted could have a go at me any time during the day.
Michael C said | November 4th 2008 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
btw -
Newcastle Jets – - are interesting, because, from Rnd 10 onwards back in V2, had an increase in crowds of 57%. From about 7300 to just over 11,440. This was a fabulous increase,………….., and – - whilst probably fanciful to suggest that it may be replicated from here on this season – - – the great thing in Newie is that their present reduced crowd figure for V4 is 11,588……………which, is up on that V2 figure. So, whilst down 6% on V3 – - – NJs are still a glowing success story.
I was going to try to insert this paragraph in the original article, but, it was just getting too long. The main thing I wanted to do was at least get an estimated range upon which to base expectation. The GFC means that fans of most sports are watching intently, nervous about the ‘code (phoney or otherwise) wars’
Joe FC said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
-”so anyone who wanted could have a go at me any time during the day” – still wrestling with the victim syndrome Michael C?
Victer said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
This forum shouldn’t be about cross code fighting. Michael I have read some intelligent posts of yours and I don’t mind you defending AFL but this is a crossing the line a tad. Most sane football(soccer) supporters realise we have our work cut out for us in going trully mainstream in this country. However, your posts lately have become more and more bigoted. It’s actually turning in to an unhealthy obsession. How many times can one keep bringing out the same issue?
Westy said | November 4th 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
I think it is important to also be aware that the 8 team by three rounds is becoming a little monotonous. There is only so many times Mariers v Pheonix grabs you……Remember the two teams of real concern are Sydney and the Roar….I have thought about this and honestly believe that unlike Melbourne Victory 30000/35000 Sydney fc are a good 18000 /20000 no more and in as emi or grand final could fill the SFS. Sydney in the long term needs a second team aiming for another 10000/15000 crowd target. Sydney FC as presently constituted will never be a Melbourne Victory
The Roar has had the biggest drop in crowds. I seriously wonder if this has got to do with their basic inability to win at home. Their home results are terrible.
It may well be that the A league needs new blood to reinvigorate variety . The Gold Coast will be a good fit although I still have doubts about Townsville. No one should have any doubt about the Gong. Illawarra or the South Coast will be a powerful and well supported competitior.Not so sure about the second Melbourne team at the moment.
jimbo said | November 4th 2008 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
The NJ’s problem’s with marquee players continues and sadly Edmundo Zura has terminated his contract and stay in Newcastle to return home to his family for personal reasons.
keeper11 said | November 4th 2008 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
..and the point of this article???
Do i smell something emanating from the exclusive club that is the backrooms of the ‘footy’ establishment club and their media masters ???
Maybe I missed them…but how come I haven’t seen any of the following aricles that present an alternate view?
- are the socceroos now arguably the biggest national football team drawcard in the country?
especially compared to the anemic turnouts to the much over-hyped Kangaroos..who can’t fill a stdium for love or money…
..
-In light of the above…should the league team still deserve ..umm 20x the media coverage and support of our true national and more popular team ..the socceroos?
- The NRL in its so-called centenary year celebrations ..crowds down 2.5%….7% in sydney..
Only average about 2000 more than A-league despite ..100year history and …oh 50x more media support
Please discuss….
and..
- Can rugby league sellout ANY game these days despite saturation media support?? i.e. state of O, test matches, semis, grand final….umm nope…..
Oh..did I hear something about vested media interests……
paul said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:44am | Report comment
SFC got 18,000. Anybody who bought a paper last week got a buy one get one free voucher. That is the reason I went. Will never go again though.
paul said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:46am | Report comment
Comparing NRL averages to aleague is apples and oranges. There are 8 games a week compared to 4, take out melb victory and the average is quite poor indeed.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Paul – that’s the next stat I wanted to illustrate, the unhealthy reliance upon MVFC. It’s assumed, but, just to quantify it.
JoeFC – - mate, victim, hardly, ’twas meant in jest dear sir.
Keeper11 – - the point of this article? Well, seemingly some folk are over defensive and getting a little too code vs code about it. I made no cross code comments in the article. There have been several articles previously about the crowd slump – - but, thus far, no one had extrapolated forwards. I thought that was a worthwhile exercise. Obviously some folk aren’t that curious.
btw – the NRL attendances of Sydney clubs vs non Sydney is also very much worthy of review.
Westy -
is that part of the FFA expansion gamble? How much can they write off as an already tired format – - – and press ahead. Or, is the HAL about a 2nd or 3rd tier competition in the household budget stakes such that – presently anyway, it feels financial stresses first. (or, soon after the basketball).
True Tah said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:31am | Report comment
keeper11,
NRL final drew over 80k, that is impressive in any code for a final anywhere. The HAL final drew 36K, I know it was two out of town sides, but they are still within a 3 hour drive from Sydney, but when the HAL can draw 80k to its final, then maybe your argument might have some legs.
Comparing HAL crowds with NRL is ridiculous, NRL has too many sides in Sydney as it is, and Sydney FC are not getting 25K plus crowds every week.
The RL World Cup might be a joke to you, but so far it has averaged over 15K per game. In any event, I have no doubts the next Socceroo game will get its turn in the sun with the next WCQ coming up shortly, the Qatar game got a fair amount of coverage/
Clutch Cable said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:44am | Report comment
I’m thinking of writing an article about Australian Rules Football crowds outside of Australia; 130 years and they’ve remained remarkably consistent…at zero.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Clutch Cable – that would be a useful exercise. (not!)
Although, your initial assertion is quite wrong – - there have been crowds at Aust Football exhibition matches overseas. But, please, go ahead and do so. And the point would be?
Victer -
I’ve put before the argument that if the HAL crowds are benchmarked internationally and even just vs the NRL – - then, everything is pretty rosey. I’ve cautioned against viewing the AFL as any form of benchmark. I think that’s unhealthy. I do believe some soccer folk have got ahead of themselves a tad. And, too, perhaps some of the ’smell the fear’ rhetoric on both sides is unwarranted by the actuality. After all, very few ’sports’ in Australia operate in a vacuum with a perfectly linear upward growth profile across the board.
The interesting phenomena is that because of the sporting mix of Australia, it isn’t a given that strong socceroos equals strong HAL.
The main reason I put this article out, was that in the national press and article was recently published that effectively mirrored the round X of V3 vs round X of V4 comparative figures that I’ve published here on theRoar. Perhaps, just perhaps, people in ‘high’ places do monitor our activity?? So – - I couldn’t really just do ‘more of the same’, so, at this point, make a statistical prediction and then I’ll shut up about it.
Deal???
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Westy and I are as one on the issue of expansion. I have my doubts about Townsville, and one year further on while I think Victoria needs more clubs I am not so sure about the Melbourne Hearts idea in direct competition to Victory.
For mine, I’d have the FFA go to 10 teams with Gold Coast and South Coast/Illawarra as two very strong, obvious entrants. And I’d have them work hard on the situations in Perth and Wellington which need real strengthening because there is no points adding clubs if others are looking like dropping away (and that’s not to mention the loss of geographic footprint that would occur if those two clubs aren’t sustainable)
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
On the broader point, while it is a common theme from MC and maybe was not worth repeating in this article yet again, I do think there is some value in what is happening to the HAL.
Years 1 to 3 were undoubtedly a good start (or, to please some, re-start). There was the excitement of a new comp, a better handling of the media coverage, and of course the ‘riding the wave’ of the Socceroos exploits at WC2006.
We now see the league ‘taking a breath’. And we have rightfully observed that some analogous leagues (eg J-League, MLS) have done the same in their 4th or 5th seasons and then resumed growth. Others – most notably the Chinese League – have seen the retreat in attendances after the first handful of seasons become entrenched, and sadly have not recovered onto a growth curve despite the latent interest in the game and the decent standard of their league.
I guess what I’m saying is that if V4 crowd figures rattle the FFA cage a bit, shock a few people that might have been becoming a touch complacent out of their taking football and HAL growth for granted, and really give us a ‘next level’ of focus then it may just be a good thing. No-one can assume that the growth will resume unless we plan and work for it.
Where I do agree wtih MC is that we should not benchamrk against other Aussie sports which have completely different characteristics. If we get to the point where we have a decently supported domestic league that is competitive in Asia, that spits out the odd star player into the bigger clubs around the world and also into the Socceroo machine, and that offers a good product (both live and on TV) to the fans here – with one vital ingredient being having the right infrastructure in place – then thats cool with me. As I’ve written many times before, if we can aim in the mid-term (~3yrs) to have average normal-season HAL attendances of 15K with no club dropping below 10K per match, in a 10 or 12 club competition, then we will have done pretty well for ourselves and would be the envy of many other ’second tier’ leagues in the world.
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
I’m thinking of writing an article about Australian Rules Football crowds outside of Australia; 130 years and they’ve remained remarkably consistent…at zero.
Clutch Cable,
I have already done that research and it has conclusively matched yours.. Yes, it’s hard to believe. Although you are wrong on one point, it has been longer than 130 years in fact as Roy Masters has stated consistently it is really 149 years.. Not that there hasn’t been any gallant attempts to spread the game to England back in 1870 with the Melbourne rules introduced over there, but still yes you guess it, crowds remain ZERO ….. good point…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Towser said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:14am | Report comment
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/a-league/road-to-acl-riches-about-to-get-even-more-congested/2008/11/04/1225560841369.html
Millster
Arent you setting your own football benchmarks by expecting certain average & bottom line figures in a set time frame?
There is only one benchmark the standard of football presented on the park as I stated above regarding the Roar.
This will be determined by the AFC & its requirements not the FFA as I discussed with you on another opinion piece.
So whilst we can compare with the MLS & the J-League at the same stage of development this is flawed in one major aspect. Neither had a higher organisation pushing them to professionalise their Leagues. See SMH article again(above) & quote:-
“What’s clear is that the A-League will have to get better, smarter and leaner in everything it does. Ultimately, that’s a good thing. In the meantime, we should savour Adelaide’s achievement. It may be a while before we taste such success again.”
Remember this quote everything the FFA does regarding the A-League is connected to it.
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Good point Towser and we are all the better for it.
Happy blogging guys; I’m going across to the news desks to follow the results out of the USA. Yes sadly, I am as much a politics junkies as a football junkie and the US election is the “once in 4 year” world cup in that respect
True Tah said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Millster..you’re not alone there.
The Link said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
keeper11 – and the point of your post? You’ve done pretty well to turn an article written by an AFL fan about A-League crowds into a tirade against rugby league, pretty sad really.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Towser -
interesting article. It will be a challenge – - – but, then, one challenge is testing a ‘champion team’ against a ‘team of champions’.
btw -
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22760901-5001023,00.html?from=public_rss
is a reminder that if soccer folk are going to try to stand atop a building and bare their butt to other sports during the good times – - (just 3 years in), then be ready to take hits back.
FFA head of commercial operations, John O’Sullivan, insisted the figures showed cricket was no longer the only show in town in summer.
He warned that soccer’s crowds would continue to increase and the game was on cricket’s tail. “Our numbers don’t lie,” he said.
Towser said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
True Tah
I’ve got about 5 different news sources at the bottom of my screen. But nothings really happening yet as far as results go.
Towser said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Michael C
THe old saying “people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones” applies to us all.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Towser -
I guess that’s part of the issue though – - people are only in ‘glass houses’ if they are ‘transparent’ to the public. As TT has been following up on, the FFA and member clubs aren’t overtly transparent,…………their ‘glass house’ is heavily tinted – - – but, seemingly a legal tint!!!
with respect to throwing stones……………..is that only permitted on a ‘pitch’? or a ‘field’? (see Urbanonic on : http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/11/04/wallabies-vs-kangaroos-in-the-spirit-of-afl-and-gaa-ir-matches/)
Towser said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
http://www.wiseoldsayings.com/wosdirectory.htm
Michael C
The site above should provide you with old sayings for a lifetime.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Towser
brilliant:
Fear the Greeks bearing gifts. – Virgil (70-19 BC) “I fear the Greeks, even when bringing gifts.”
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Not too worried about comparisians to rugby league, i know the english league teams crowds have increased this year, next year might be a different story but they have 2 new teams coming in so i expect better crowd figure.
If you need to compare Keeper 11 , try to do it with the union stats, they are alot bigger overseas. Baraka Obarma has won the ellection.
Hope he is a league fan.
Clutch Cable said | November 5th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
“Baraka Obarma has won the ellection.
Hope he is a league fan.”
According to his article, an Obama win is actually a good sign for football (soccer) in America.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2008/10/would-obamas-el.html
Clutch Cable said | November 5th 2008 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
“Baraka Obarma has won the ellection.
Hope he is a league fan.”
According to this article, an Obama win is actually a good sign for football (soccer) in America.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2008/10/would-obamas-el.html
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Clutch Cable -
funny the attempted stereotypes associated -
where as the center of the country is full of people who are the enemies of soccer and Obama — white, 50-and-over guys who listen to talk radio and only care about football or basketball.
golly, they only have over 50s in those states???
perhaps the best friend of soccer are 1 child ‘families’ who haven’t observed for themselves the natural ‘rough’ play that children partake in. Molly coddled kids are the greatest ally of soccer.
True Tah said | November 5th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
I always thought Basketball was Obama’s game.
Im sure plenty of fans of NFL/NBA/NHL and MLB would have voted for Obama too, and given that hes virtually won already, they must have.
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
According to this article, an Obama win is actually a good sign for football (soccer) in America.
The Football family continues to grow .. Another 300 million people playing, talking, watching, FIFA Football .. Amazing no doubt this will mean more government spending on football across the world that the Bush regime neglected and failed to do… I hope that sometime soon Rud2018 will be meeting Obama to get his support…
“I fear the Greeks, even when bringing gifts.”
A bit like Danish pastry without the filling…
GC17… MC, many folk on the Gold Coast fear the same thing…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Clutch Cable said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Yeah to be honest I’m not exactly sure how an Obama victory has much to do with Major League Soccer, but thought it was an interesting and pretty topical read.
Towser said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Gracious speech by Mckain.
Barack Obama never thought I’d see it in my lifetime.
A seismic shift.
On that football article . Theres some good ideas for Football here to follow particularly in using the internet to connect to young people. Would have been useful for the Roar to use this sort of input via the internet regarding its name & what fans want when it first started up.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Towser -
GC17 allowed for the internet for ‘potential’ fans to put forward suggestions etc – - as it turned out, with no clear winner, they defered it………..and therefore, at least listened to the less than coherant voice of the fans!!! Actually, AFL.com.au has been great in recent years in inviting input on rule propositions and the like.
Interesting the 4 yearly voting rights……….trying to give franchise ’subscribers’ a greater stakeholding. Given my AFL club North Melb finally reverted back to the traditional member based club with members having voting rights and all normal rights to form a ticket and run for the board. In the Australian context – - I’d think even that pseudo member base privately owned franchise model is worth considering…….especially in AFL cities.
btw – connecting via the internet – - – for whom is it the ’sporting sole domain’? The AFL for example gets a lot of pressure from those overseas for whom AFL.com.au is their only or most up to date interface. In the Australian demographic, you certainly couldn’t make any of those Obama/soccer assertions………….and, again, I reckon there’s overlap.
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
No big deal, i thought soccer was already global game. All i know is by the time soccer takes over america we will all be that bored of hearing its name we will be craving for our smaller sports hey M.C. Cant say we are going to be dominated by soccer, we already are.
The world is being over run by the game now. Anyone looking forward to winter yet.? And thats another thing thats going to spoil the game and i have said this also, once the yanks become involved its all over.
P.S while i am here i will give the mass gathering a plug, 2 games tonite starts at 5 pm fox3.
Fiji Scots, Ireland,Samoa.
True Tah said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
KB,
it doesnt mean anything of the sort, it means that Americans have voted to go with a dynamic new leader and made history in the process, and a change in American policy. In my opinion, the impact on the sports Americans are interest is not really too much of an issue here.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Oikee -
no plugs with tips!!!!
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
Word has it M.C that one of the Johns boys has been working with those lucky irish lads and has givin away a few of his beauty tips, not with looks but with the ball. He has showed them how to kick the ball porperly, (unlike those round ball players, his skills would be greatly cherished) so there could be a upset on the cards. We will see, We willl see, “oh” to be sure, to be sure. Say that last line with a irish accent.
thats like saying the socceroos will win the world cup. 
So this will be interesting and i think they only need to win by 7 to make the semi. The scots on the other hand, well, they dont seem to have any luck what so ever , i am surgesting that they might get a hammering by a side mind you that thinks it can knock off the big one. OZ …… Anyhow,
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
btw I was thinking the other day and this is only a point of interest .. What happened to that RU official who received some $1-$3m dollars (one month of work ?) for organising the RU world cup in Australia that everyone got upset about .. I have forgotten the details .. Can you throw some light on the out come on that story ..
~~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Shame i cant spell porperly.
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
K.B they love losing money R.U 1-3 mill is pocket money. Start looking when you hear they have lost 500 million.
True Tah said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
KB,
are you talking about Colin Love – its not the rugby union, it was the rugby league, although you have overstated the figure.
However in light of your post, I will do my investigation, this is the first I have heard of a rugby union official getting over $1m to organise the 2003 RWC, but it could well be the case.
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
Oikee – nice of you to suggest some things for people to do before they see Adelaide United V Osaka on Fox 1 at 9pm. And I do have a tip for that one… 1-1 (which is better for the Japs than for us due to away goals rule).
I don’t think Obama would have ever heard of League. I also question whether he’ll be good for football as, in his first term, he’ll still want to be one of the ‘common man’ and seen at as many games of NFL and baseball as possible to win a few hearts in the red-voting central and southern states.
To MC and your ‘molly-coddled kids’ post – what part was meant to be analysis and what part stereotye? I couldn’t work that out for myself…
Finally on the election in the US I am torn. On the one hand the end of Bush is a good thing even for a red-leaning person like myself. On the other we have truly seen the rise of a ‘pop-star’ president – a guy has made it to the white house riding almost totally on symbolism, good rhetoric and a fair dose of reactionary vote, and with an almost total lack of the normal qualifications one might expect for such a position. Thank god he has the smart old dude Biden (who I respect a lot) to hold his hand.
Forgetmenot said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Reading through the comments … there are alot of soccer fans stating that the article is written out of fear, and that it is a blatant attempt to put the sport down.
Maybe you like to see the world through rose coloured glasses, but the simple reality is, is that the A-league crowds have dropped.
Perhaps someone could do an analysis of the last 5 rounds of the AFL season to see how crowd growth/decline compares.
The drop in the soccer crowds can partially be attributed to the global financial crisis, as well as other issues (such as more soccer internationals, rugby league world cup, international rules series, Wallabies, US election etc).
Also a point for the website administrators, in Australia it is colour not color. The website dictionary tries to correct this.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
Millster -
ah, twas trading stereotype for stereotype,
just as one could spend all day trading wise old sayings for wise old sayings………..actually, I think I got caught up in that game once upon a time on the SMH flog!!!!!
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot, good point, i see the soccer fans are laready warming to the color of the yankie language, wont be long before we have the boy bands and Pop idol girls running the show, hehe, dont worry i still know how to spell colour correctly and it starts with a “G” for grenn, as in show me the money.
Thanks millster, i did not realise they were playing that game tonite , now i suppose you want me to watch it, alright then, but it had better not dissapoint.
cheers. Sorry forgetmenot, Tonight, not tonite. Theres that damm american influience again, 
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Was it the league..? ah yes I do now think you are right … Colin Love It was; a considerable amount of money for just a short amount of time spent… hmm any idea of the complete story of his deal.. ; John O’Neill parted ways over money or internal politics after the RU world cup I think .. That may have been what I was thinking of ?
~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot
There have been plenty of articles on The Roar about the drop in crowds including one by Jesse Fink and other football analysts. We all know that there is a plateau and that we have to vigilant and not complacent about our place in Australian society.
However this article by Michael C reeks of gloating at our sports. He doesn’t mention anything that other football commentators and journalist haven’t already said. We know there is a problem with crowd number and we don’t really need people like Michael C to point it out.
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Oikee – no game where an Aussie team is battling for the championship of a whole continent will ever be a disappointment. Especially when we have our backs to the wall – playing against a Japanese team worth 10 times on paper what we are, and playing them in their home base.
This is one where non-football viewers will have to understand what a ‘good’ result is. A draw will be very good; even better if it is a ’score-draw’ as we will then have the away goal advantage for the second leg. I’d even take a loss by one goal, especially if we score away as part of it, as I think we can overtunr that at Hindmarsh.
Love how I’m using the term “we” for a team in Adelaide… when I’m a Sydney fan! I guess thats the mystery of football…
PS: Go the Irish tonight in the Mass Gathering. I’ve met enough girls called Sinead with those gorgeous accents at bars and pubs the world over that I’m in love with the place despite having never even been there
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
oikee,
You really not going to believe winning the RL world cup compares to winning the FIFA world cup are you lad ..? emoticon x 10 
(have you notice mine have the greatest laugh) .. Not that I wouldn’t support our ARL lads.. I’m right behind them but the Kanga –”Roos” have the greater hurdle to jump .. Are you sure you don’t want to take up the EMU name as I have since noticed that they lay egg shape balls with the Steeden logo on them… 
and run like Billy-the-kid… 
emoticon overload you put two more up than me ..
~~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
You soccer dudes are too soft, these same gumballs have been telling us leaguies that it was dead 10 years ago, you cant kill off any sport , even union which to me was dead is making a comeback. Big deal crowds are down, so what, the t/v veiwers are still watching. To be honest i prefer games with less a crowd on t/v at least you can watch it without having to turn the sound off with that sickening singing or the 80 thousand sound of people all talking at once at the AFL, give me a origin crowd any day of the week, they swing to the courus of the ebb and flow of the game.
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Millster, just one thing it really annoys me, dont say are worth 10 times more than us. Its something i really dont like about any code. Dollar value sickens me, just so you know. I would love for money to not be a issue but its fast becoming the major player.
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Sorry, i just reread you point and noticed on paper. alright then. sorry.
oikee said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Just a quick one for you K.B as the mass gathering calls. I have seen that the coach has called the second team he is playing this week-end the emu’s ,
you have a word to him , :}
Millster said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Sorry Oikee and yes I understand your frustration. Dollar value doesn’t sicken me, but I agree it is not the whole story and should never be. All I mean is that they have a bigger budget, not that they are really worth 10 times. But it does make it sweeter still if we win against, or even remain competitive with (eg. if they win make them work very hard over the 2 matches) team who have a ‘paper value’ of much more than ours. It also means that our system is doing something right to get more of the potential out of players that the football market may see as having less value.
Anyway basically I agree with you, but its all part of the underdog dynamic that I like about this ACL stuff. Aussie teams, in a league only 3.5 years old, with all the salary caps and other restrictions put on them, competing against bigger, older, richer clubs and doing us proud.
Michael C said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
daSilva -
you read far too much into it if you feel thus : ‘reeks of gloating’
remember our friend Dave – - – I’ve done this purely for his benefit. As, back when I was presenting him the year on year round 8, 9 and 10 stats, he kept speaking of the increase that will come – as always. So, I’ve quantified that, and used the BEST case venue by venue crowd trend for the remaining 11 games of any previous season.
re AFL – I’ve got stats on that, but, it’s overly complicated including too many ruddy venues and the unbalanced draw etc………AFL is a statistical minefield for that. But, I’m working towards putting something together from that perspective.
Not far off. I’ve no idea what it’ll show — I try to go in with a relatively open mind.
btw – forgetmenot -
back when crowds were up, year on year, I was providing proof that crowds were NOT bouyant across the board and that in V2 MVFC deserved ALL the credit, and in V3 Phoenix and CCM and NJs deserved the credit. Why did I do this?? Because I don’t like Sydney and SFC getting undue credit. Soccer or footy, doesn’t really matter………….but Sydney vs Melbourne……….now that matters and perhaps on that front I CAN tend to be a bit tragic.
btw – - MVFC fan rang SEN on Monday, just back from road trip to Hindmarsh………..he HATES the Adelaide folk and hopes they get done 0-5 in BOTH legs of the final of the ACL……………..to him, it has NOTHING to do with national pride………….
Koala Bear said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Just a quick one for you K.B as the mass gathering calls. I have seen that the coach has called the second team he is playing this week-end the emu’s , you have a word to him , :}
Okiee,
I have no idea what you are talking about … You are not referring to the Galahs are you; that’s not Football if you are.?..
Can you give me more detail.. laddie…
~~~~~~~
KB
Dave said | November 5th 2008 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
MC
“remember our friend Dave – - – I’ve done this purely for his benefit. As, back when I was presenting him the year on year round 8, 9 and 10 stats, he kept speaking of the increase that will come – as always. So, I’ve quantified that, and used the BEST case venue by venue crowd trend for the remaining 11 games of any previous season”
You shouldn’t have spent so much time on it…because in the the end you are only guessing/speculating on the future. As l said in my original reply back in post no 3 the crowds will build for most teams as the season progresses and finals approach. AU have another game at Adelaide Oval did you factor that in? for eg. Certainly WP will drop and possibly NJ but on field performance will determine the others.
As said originally AU already have record numbers watching them at home..that cant be just ignored as if it is not happening.
Kazama said | November 5th 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
Michael C: “btw – - MVFC fan rang SEN on Monday, just back from road trip to Hindmarsh………..he HATES the Adelaide folk and hopes they get done 0-5 in BOTH legs of the final of the ACL……………..to him, it has NOTHING to do with national pride………….”
It’s a shame really that some people can’t put aside their hatred of their rivals for the greater good. Forget pride, a win for Adelaide in the ACL is a win for Australian soccer. Yes, I don’t like Melbourne, but if they were in the final instead of us I’d be cheering my guts out for them.
I know some people in Adelaide who are small-minded to the point that if Melbourne Victory had to beat an alien team to save humanity from annihilation, they’d probably cheer for the aliens.
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 5:29am | Report comment
Kazama -
I thought about this guy after listening – - and, realistically, isn’t what you want around the HAL some of that ‘tribalism’?? Perhaps the problem so far, is that there are still a lot of ’soccer fans’ unwilling to do more than dip their toes in to the HAL. This fellow has jumped in fully. And the result,……he no longer cares about ‘greater meaning’, or ‘following the game JUST to support the concept’………he’s moved beyond that. And for him………he couldn’t care one bit about what AdeUtd do. Is that a myopic view? Or, is that the view that is needed for the HAL to function going forward? Otherwise, you’ll have a lot of ’soccer elitist’ ’supporters’ who only care when a HAL side progresses into the ACL because, for some folk, everything is justified by the metrics of the opposition (seemingly).
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 5:47am | Report comment
Dave -
“As l said in my original reply back in post no 3 the crowds will build for most teams as the season progresses and finals approach.”
that’s just it – - based on present position, I forecast the BEST CASE growth for each side/venue that has been exhibited in the past.
The Roar for example – - best ‘growth trend’ was 19% last season – allowing a 19% factor from here on, they will still fall almost 3000 short. Because, they are starting from such a low base – i.e. 12K avg thus far compared to 14.3K same time last year.
Worst case was V1 when the trend here on was -12% and in V2 there was a 0.3% growth.
No NZ franchise has yet showed a positive trend in the 2nd half of the season.
SFC trends have been +4%, -12% and +7%.
NJs and CCM are the only sides to show positive trends EVERY season – - and you’re probably thinking about them more so – - NJs though, +2%, +57% and +6%. They need to exhib 27.4% growth. That’ll be a stretch, mainly because, whilst their round 10 ‘base’ is lower than this time last year, it’s still 4300 UP on V2. (see, that’s a good news – longer term upward trend).
CCM – +17%, +19% and +30%. even replicating the 30% from last year will finish with an overall decline (not huge).
MVFC even in V2 showed a -2% drop in the run up to the finals (at TD – granted, the OP crowds can mask a ‘real’ trend here – - – however, more damning is that MVFC are top of the table, great start, great pre-season and have been tracking around 9K-10K down on same time V2) – - – so, certainly, a bit of ’scope’ exists for MVFC. As indicated, they need a 17% increase up to regular 28K crowds. In V2, their last 3 TD games averaged 35K – including the 50K match v SFC).
PG – only showed ‘growth’ in V3. -8%, -5% and +3%. But, are tracking about on line, looks like they HAVE bottomed out, so, if this is the worst they’ll get, then that’s probably okay.
AdeUtd – - we now the ACL factor – - I’ve mostly recognised that. I’ve also exclused the Ade Oval match and stuck to the Hindmarsh comparisons. Why? The Ade Oval figured would skew the year on year comparisons, and the reality really is that the Ade Oval match from last year will be benchmarked against the Ade Oval match this year………..simple. Wait and see on that one.
so – - all in all, you now have the tools to figure out just where and how much improvement is needed.
In V3, 5 teams increased and 3 dropped after round 10.
in V2, it was 4-4.
in V1, it was 4-4.
So long as MVFC is up there – - – the FFA can retain hope………………and that will lead onto the MVFC ‘factor’.
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 8:01am | Report comment
K.B ricky stuart , hes p,laying the team he calls the emus this weekend, the reserves are getting a run so he calls them the emus. The kangaroos are being rested.
Just another point i made was joey johns helped ireland with their kicking game this week, made a difference to ireland dont you think. ?
chris said | November 6th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Michael C, good point aobut the bloke who rang in to SEN and the whole ’should we follow ade utd’. I guess it can open up another debate – club vs country. I myself am one of those individuals who actually does not have a fave club at all. whether it be in australia or overseas. yet i watch the game religiously. I also follow rugby league. I watch quite a bit of it as well yet i dont have a fave club. the only team i follow are the socceroos. I think to me in general all clubs no matter what sport are too much coke vs pepsi. Although when you are watching the national team play its a matter of national pride.
Kazama said | November 6th 2008 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Michael C
I think tribalism is a very dangerous path to go down, a bit of a double-edged sword. Having seen first hand some of the violence associated with tribalism, even in the local Aussie Rules competition, I think A-League clubs are quite wary of their supporter groups and the troubles that over-enthusiastic one-eyed fans can bring with them. And with the stigmas attached to soccer in this country, of crowd violence, any signs of this will scare off the casual fans, which the A-League certainly needs the support of if it is to avoid a collapse.
IMO, it is certainly myopic. I think that supporter and others like him need to realise that, as you allude to in this article, the A-League is still quite fragile and the success of our clubs in Asia can directly and indirectly affect the future of the league. So, assuming that a win for Adelaide would have been of benefit to the league and thus to Melbourne Victory, this supporter is cheering to the detriment of his own club.
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Chris -
I can understand that attitude in the world of ‘manufactured’ franchise clubs that are privately owned. I can well understand that the less ‘commoditised’ national teams are more able to draw ‘passionate’ support. For me, I’ve effectively stated my position here. I don’t like privately owned ‘franchises’. But – - I come from an AFL/VFL perspective, and our clubs are member owned and in the main, so historically entwined with the history of the city/state that no many clubs in other codes come close (for several reasons, I won’t go into now).
Kazama -
I still, after seeing the ‘increased’ prize money on offer in the ACL – - see something like that in the short term as dangerous to the HAL…..if that is used as a reason to increase salary caps………on the odd chance the 1 team once every how many years might win the whole lot. The relative cost across the league will be enormous. For the time being, the ACL might be a dangerous and premature distraction.
Again, a potential issue of delusions of grandeur within the code in Australia, of putting the cart before the horse.
However, if every club had a Clive Palmer willing to pump as much money in as required………then fine. Go for it.
Until such time that the HAL can generate larger amounts of broadcast rights funding or the like, then each club is still running close to the margin. (as will most likely always happen, budgets exist to be spent!). It just means that ‘infinite growth’ models, or AFL style crowd predictions and modelling – - – all sounds a bit too much best case scenario, and not what you’d be wanting to have to manage towards. Along the way then, each club needs their rusted on myopic supporters who buy club memberships, and who turn up week after week and who HATE losing to the opposition. (the fine line is to HATE losing, LOVE beating – - but in general be apathetic towards – the opposition. The danger in OVER focussing on specific ‘rivalries’ can be a loss of control. And we’ve seen what stadium management along with the FFA have done at TD to try to retain control and public safety – - – AFL fans have been subject to higher levels of allocated seating for sometime now, the standing room on the terraces is a thing of the past – other than at lower grades.)
Millster said | November 6th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Kaz, MC – I also think that tribalism is a result of the sporting traditions of Australia, built upon primarily domestic codes.
A Carlton fan has never had to ask himself whether he would support Collingwood as the AFL’s representative against a foreign AFL club. A Roosters fan has never asked herself whether she would support the Eels in such a contest.
The closest you get is the question of whether to support “your state’s” club if a final is an inter-state affair (e.g. Would a Dockers fan support West Coast as ‘the other Perth team’ against a Melbourne AFL club in a GF; or did supporters of other Sydney clubs support Manly against the Storm).
Bottom line is that dogged adherence to your own club and an absolute hatred of others in pretty much all circumstances is a long stadning and necessary feature of these codes.
Different equation in football where, as we are currently seeing, the concept of a club being the “standard-bearer” for your national league at continental or world level is much more a part of the equation. I would normally bay for South Australian blood when AU was playing Sydney. But last night I was Red as they come. Same in Europe, my team PSG’s traditional rival is Marseilles and I hate them. But was I glad that they – representing France Ligue 1 in the UCL – had a win overnight? Damn right I was.
I think as with most things we won’t see change short term in the current fan base. But as the generation gradually changes, and as we see the kids with a global access and a global view grow up, we will also see this shift to a more complex, nuanced and intelligent support that still puts the ‘home’ club first but also has broader adherence to and pride in the ‘home’ league.
Millster said | November 6th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
I am however in full agreement with MC’s caution against rapid salary cap relaxation just because of ACL. A-League has shown that it may not be in the top tier but it is competitive as-is so there is no sense in making the game more fragile just to accellerate the chase for that one prize when we can build towards it more sensibly.
This does not signal a change of commitment on my behalf towards the cause of sensible, gradual relaxation – and perhaps eventual elimination – of the salary cap in Australian football. But I do agree that we should do this at the right pace for us, and not just driven by the need to match a top few Asian clubs.
Towser said | November 6th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Millster
Let me put this to you & I dont disagree with building sensibly its a no brainer.
So for football clubs in Australia how do you build,rembering that unlike European football & other sporting clubs in Australia & their competitions there is no pre history where sponsors etc have ploughed money into the domestic competitions because they are worthy in their own right. So take Europe the EPL stands on its own but the icing on the cake for clubs is the ECL. Same in France Italy etc.
This is the opposite of what is happening here & the Clive Palmer involvement with GCU a classic example.
Why is Clive involved because of the A-League stand on its own competition. Of course not he’s publically stated that the main reason is the ACL & his ability to network the business side of his affairs ,particularly in China. So no ACL no GCU.
Wheres the prize money for the A-League? Its zero as far as I know. So from a financial perspective how does an A-League club earn extra dollars & where would it attract extra sponsorship?. From the ACL. Increased prize money& companies will be more willing to part with their cash to sponsor the A-League as a whole & individual clubs knowing that their is greater exposure to a much wider market through the ACL . Do you think that Hyundai would sponsor the A-League if its only market was Australia. Do you think AU would have penetrated the SA market as an A-League winner in the same way that it has by being in the ACL final?
In other words unlike other leagues in any sport in the world the A-Leagues growth is being driven entirely by the ACLfrom birth.
Even the J-League has had 16 years to develop a strong domestic competition sponsored heavily in its own right.
I guarantee that if the A-League had not been connected to the ACL we would not have an expanding A-League. Indeed we may not have an A-league at all.
Its not only the financial side of the A-League that is involved but also our football development in the A-League is being driven by other ACL clubs,particularly the more advanced J-League. Its set the standards for us to follow.(last nights match a classic example)
No doubt it will have to be managed prudently across the board by the FFA but with the thought always in the back of their mind that the A-Leagues & the games bread is well & truly buttered in Asia not Australia.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/blogs/philip-micallef/aussie-way-winning-hearts-and-minds-146606/
This Micallef’s article is a very good balanced article to where the HAL and the ACL stands today and of its future. These two quotes in Micallef’s article how the Australian Football Fans perceive where it stands are interesting.. All I can say about the SEN phone caller that MC has mentioned on this thread; he must know something that this Melb Vic supporter does, not, know. Although you must admire his passion .. I just love the friendly-hate rivalry that is now being generated in Football, as long as, we can, keep the lid on the violence, which has no place in Australian Football…
A few months ago a punter at a Sydney FC game came up to me at half-time with this gem of a remark: “It’s not the European Champions League, mate, but it’s ours.”
“A blog about Adelaide’s Asian odyssey by TWG colleague Jesse Fink brought this reaction from one reader who said he was a Melbourne Victory fan: “Can’t wait for the day when the A-League is big enough for me to say I hope Adelaide lose lol. But for now I hope Adelaide fly the Aussie flag!”
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KB
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Towser -
The J-League has certain advantages :
less ‘football’ competition, and less ’sports competition’ in general (domestically),
higher domestic population
more global general and consumer item companies are Japanese
And it’s taken them 16 years.
To almost have clawed back to the their novelty value starting point. Fair enough, the advantage for the HAL is that the ACL exists now like nothing existed by comparison 16 years ago.
But – you certainly illustrate the issue – - the domestic comp will be vulnerable, whilst over reliant on external factors – i.e. whilst the ‘bread is well & truly buttered in Asia not Australia’. In a cluttered domestic market place, it implies that for many people they will get their ‘local/tribal’ fix via the already established ‘tribal’ domestic codes, and will get their ‘international’ fix via soccer. If soccer were operating in effectively a footballing vacuum……..then it’d logically be different.
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
KB -
A few months ago a punter at a Sydney FC game came up to me at half-time with this gem of a remark: “It’s not the European Champions League, mate, but it’s ours.”
D’you know what this reminds me of?
An AFL fan says to his European mate – - “It’s not the ‘world game’, mate, but it’s ours.”
btw -
You’d love such a positive sales pitch from your real estate agent, wouldn’t you??
Hence, the decreasing relevance to mainstream Australia of the game abroad, a game so embedded in the world’s culture that it can survive the greed, cheating, violence and blatant disregard for supporters that have taken hold of it the last 20 years or so…………woohoo……….where do I sign up to get on board that train??
The final sentiment :
Which reminds me of one other thing I’m beginning to dislike about European and South American football. It’s the appalling inter-club hatred that passes for passion and rivalry.
reminds me of some debates back on the SMH flog of soccer folk trying to assert themselves as MORE passionate than other codes supporters etc…………..is there suddenly a realisation that some soccer folk had been wearing rose coloured glasses previously? This author seems to be admitting that.
btw -
the line :
But the bottom line is that the A-League, Socceroos, Olyroos and Matildas are all part of our football family. And they are as Australian as Bondi and Uluru. , sounds a little like a sales pitch, heck, I can picture childrens choirs sitting atop Australian land marks. Reality is that naming ‘Greenland’ as such, didn’t make it Green. But, seriously, this whole article seems to be the author expressing that his bottom line isn’t ACTUALLY achieved just yet – - but, it IS happening. And the greatest area to achieve it is within the Australian soccer fraternity (& in my view, rather than other codes followers).
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
MC,
1 – If it’s not part of the world game mate, you can have it… If no one in the world wants AFTL … It’s all yours mate …
2 – Yep, and they all come together with love and love for each others players when playing for the national football team. Especially if that players is the hero who might score the winner in the FIFA WC final… I hope it’s Aloisi or Archie..
2 – Qantas – are working on a new TV ad campaign for “the Australian National Football Team” (Kanga — Roos) for the FIFA SA 2010 World Cup, It should be a beaut… as Australian as Bondi and Uluru… Its what puts Australia in the spot light…
~~~~~~~
KB..
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
KB -
yeah…..spotlight………….that and Kylie Minogue and Baz Luhrman films…………..groan!!! (get me one ‘o dem Qantas sick bags!!!!).
reality re point 1 – - – is the realisation for some that the rest of the world DON’T have to ‘rate’ the HAL. For the rest of the world, they don’t want the HAL………..that’s the realisation………….it’s a case of ‘who cares’.
btw – KB,……….I’m happy in the knowledge that there ARE folk in the rest of the world, who, once exposed to AF(T)L (as you put it) – - actually fall in love with the game and wish only that they’d been exposed to it earlier…………so…………nothing you say on that front can bother me – dear sir because……….for the foreseeable future, it WILL be all ours but for the ‘world’ to come and join should they wish. So – - – your ‘if’ statement is wrong from the outset. And whilst you and yours have delusions of dometic grandeur, we AFL internationalisationists have very, very low and simple goals. (which, have probably been 90% met in recent times beyond our expectations so in a couple of years we may yet have to revisit our limited scope of thinking on such fronts).
Norm said | November 6th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
“…so in a couple of years we may yet have to revisit our limited scope of thinking on such fronts).”…does that include the..”AFL 9s to be an Olympic sport in 50 yrs”?
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Norm -
if the Olympics want’s to be a haven for amateur sport and a bringing together of people outside of the realms of the super rich global mega stars……………..yeah………….why not.
The simple question is how many participants are required in how many core countries.
again though, one might fear that the International Rules might evolve into a future Olympic sport………….ah well……….could be worse………….anyway, it’d be nice to have a non offside dominated footy code at the Olympics.
Anyway – - this thread isn’t the place for this…….sorry.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Hmm that could be worse an AFTL olympic amateur sport .. could be MC, could be.. And why would you want for it to be an Olympic sport as didn’t you just say It’s all yours and stuff the world… hmm Norm and I have seen it and we did not fall in love with it .. tho I have tried to on so many occasions; it just does not have any particular skill sets that seem all that difficult … No real challenges such as beating an offside trap with a well timely run … No laddie it’s all yours mate. HAL and the ACL will do us fine .. More and more Australians are falling in love with Football no need to entice the true believers with freebies that Roy Masters has exposed in Grooky …
No laddie we are quiet happy for the moment and plan to expand further.. the ACL grows in recognition the premier league in Asia
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KB
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
KB -
the diference between the foreseeable future where it’s all ‘ours’, and a far flung future (in all likelihood beyond all of our lifetimes) where ‘our game’ might be a little more ‘global’.
KB –
what was it a theRoar poster the other day mentioned, 18K to the SFC game after they had buy one/get one free ticket vouchers in the paper.
Freebies are the domain of the marketers. Don’t you go attempting to ascend any high moral ground on the issue of ‘freebies’.
KB -
you’re apparent inability to recognise skills/attributes worthy of testing/challenge in Aust Footy is your own loss and short coming – - I wouldn’t brag about it too much. It’s a bit like attempting to boast that you still don’t see what the fuss is all about regarding electricity.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
what was it a theRoar poster the other day mentioned, 18K to the SFC game after they had buy one/get one free ticket vouchers in the paper.
Well I was not notified and it was a newspaper promotion not SFC I would have imagined and he said he was a RL supporter they can’t be trusted to tell the truth; except Roy Masters myth buster on AFTL … I would like to hear a Football supporter to confirm it he had received one from the HAL or from SFC .. You can’t count papers enticing to create more sales for their publication it just goes to illustrate how the sport has captured the imagination of the public…
Skill sets in Grooky not much to cover unless you are suggesting that placing the ball on the palm of your hand is very difficult to do and master only using your hands and feet to deliver a ball … excuse me … a thing; hmm where in football you need to use all parts of your body to control and master the ball, hands (keeper), head, chest, thigh, and feet plenty of electricity to be had from brain to any part of a footballer’s body parts. It seems however, in Grooky it by passes the most important parts of the body even if it can send down a weak signal to wherever it is suppose to go..
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KB
True Tah said | November 6th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
KB,
I get the impression you headed the ball a lot in your day!!!
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
TT,
Be honest with me, did you get that same feeling..? Not an Asian insight except for the security guards ..
did you do that search on John O’Neill and Colin Love .. I had the impression that you had said you were going to check it out.. find anything..? Not knocking JO but I watched the Wallaroos last Saturday night in Hong Kong and loved the first half .. disappointing in the end… However, I was expecting to see the stadium packed to the rafters with Asian faces, but all I saw were Caucasian types .. Makes you wonder what it was all about, doesn’t it.? Unless it was to encourage more Qantas ticket sales ..
Heading the ball is a fantastic skill, scored some beauties in my day playing in defence (own goals) nah didn’t hurt a bit …
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KB
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
K.B you need to take this line of posts over to the diving post, to alot of people the main skill is diving.
? Well its the one that seems to win games.
Looking forward to the qantas adds K.B,
just to shut you up. They know and respect the league players for one reason, they know they cant ever be that good. Face facts K.B the socceroos will only ever be a ireland in soccer as compared to league, they will have some wins but once they have to play the big boys its nite nite sonny. Stop trying to make our soccer some sort of be-all end-all. It’s simply put, not. We love to watch the socceroos because they are the under-dog .
And thats a cheesy grin.
Always will be.
Aloisi, is he not the cousin of Craig wing. He is your best hope then. K.B one more thing, the emus are running around this week-end at townsville, looks like you have lost that name also. This has to be the new socceroos name, the emus, good but not ever going to be number 1. .Just remember that everyone recognises that the kangaroos are the greatest team in the world, even if its only half the world, the brand is known for winning, just like qantas. Earn the right and you can use the brand, at the moment you cant even beat gamba.in the little league.
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
KB -
a magnificent and out dated skill that ought be outlawed:
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/soccer.html
What a game! Where else do people use their heads to bounce balls going 100 kilometers/hour?
A Norwegian study found that 35% of 69 Division I soccer players had abnormal electroencephalogram (EEG) patterns. This is more than twice the rate of abnormal EEG patterns in control subjects. Retired soccer players had several brain abnormalities including reduced cortical tissue and increased lateral ventricle size.
KB – what ‘era’ did you play in? leather balls or plastic balls (I know it sounds a bit personal??)
Jeff Astle, a former England international football player, and had been an exceptional header of the ball, and the coroner found that the repeated minor trauma had been the cause of his death. (It should be noted that the leather footballs used in Astle’s playing days were considerably heavier than the plastic ones of today, especially when wet.) A verdict of death by industrial injury was recorded.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
oikee,
.. Well we will just have to be known as the “Australian National Football Team” (Kanga–Roos for the time being) I’m not going to knock the Leagues lads as I’m an old Blue Bag turned Rabbitoh but really the opposition is appalling.. I don’t think the opposition could beat my local pub team..
funny after your post I did remember Ricky calling the second string lads Emus and thought gee wiz how scared the ARL lads.. Trying to stop all avenues to a decent Aussie nickname for us
btw I had a sneak look on Saturday avo of the Roar W-League team playing at Perry Park Brisbane on the ABC TV ..
they out drew the QLD Cup games.. What’s going on okiee..? 
~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
TT
KB’s been around a long time and can remember when only bad news stories where in the press when many good news stories where never reported ……….. there are some on this site who long for those days again …… who what to return to pre 2005 ……. who struggle with the concept that a sport-call be truly national and embrace all races and classes and have a strong international presence ……… some who dismiss every achievement, who belittle many great achievements past and present. These folk are very insecure and like all insecure folk quite noisy.
KB’s I guess in a kinda of blogg war with these folk ……… so allow for his age he has been tho a lot of rubbish ……. Using a military view its like KB wants to re take every island the Japanese took in WW 2. Whereas many what to take the Douglas Mcauther way and ignore those islands and go straight to Japan.
Once having won in PNG at the Kokoda Track the way forward was obvious and winning past battles of island hoping was a waste of energy …….. But thats KB’s choice and good luck to him and maybe a article form the Los Angele’s Times that looks at Obama and football and in one part says ………… and explains why KB’s would react the way he does.
From LA TIMES …….If you took a map of America where Obama is strongest and laid it over a map of where soccer has its biggest appeal, you’d see an incredible overlap,” he told me. “The blue states on both coasts are very soccer-friendly as well as huge areas of support for Obama, where as the center of the country is full of people who are the enemies of soccer and Obama — white, 50-and-over guys who listen to talk radio and only care about football or basketball.”
KB maybe could re write ..and it would read “where as the media of the country is full of people who are the enemies of football and anyone not like them — white, 50-and-over guys who listen and work on talk radio and only care about NRL or AFL.”
But in closing KB did not start a stirring thread meant to dismiss and selectively select those things that suited the them ……. he is reacting to them ……… me I don’t normally react to these things preferring not to island hope, my first post in this thread.
But I will say this that given the Hal honeymoon is over, Hal 4 started in earlier than it has in the past, that in the early part of the season with the Olympics on sports news times was hard to get especially when you consider that 7, 9 & 10 have vested interest in AFL & NRL, that we have had financial news over the last few weeks with the sub prime, stock market, property market, bank to bank credit all headline news, a US election campaign and the huge interest it has generated …… for the crowds to be where they still are is a HUGE EFFORT and Shows contrary to the scare and mayhem of some in the article Football is well placed.
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
KB -
I had a sneak look at the W-League………….oh god, it was baaaad. But, then, on Ch.31, I’ve seen some womens state league……………oh god, it was baaaad.
Let’s leave it at netball, and perhaps basketball, ……….and certainly beach volley ball and US lingerie bowl.
Millster said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Oikee – how many times do I havee to point out that the Kangas cannot be all you put them up to be because they are not even just a big fish in a small pond, they are the one shark in a pool of 8 or 9 meazly goldfish.
Do you understand that being a decent underdog, say somewhere in the range between 20th and 30th in the world, in a competition that has massive quality worldwide is a much much – in fact incomparably better – thing than being first in the world when daylight is second and some tiny little nothing teams are third, fourth, fifth, etc…
You say “everyone recognises that the Kangaroos are the greatest team in the world…” I say no. My guess is only 0.5% of the world recognises the Kangaroos at all, even less would know that they play League not Union, and then a fair few of those that are still in the mix would say – like many here – that their results are meaningless because there is an abysmally low standard of international competition in the game.
Remember AU made it to the game against Gamba, playing bigger, stronger, richer teams. Given how soft the Kangas must be due to 50+ years of no real competition, if someone came up and really challenged them I’d say they would get a major shock and a fair flogging.
My respect goes to NSW and QLD SoO teams when it comes to League because each year they play 3 fiercly fought and well regarded fixtures. That is 3 more decent competitive games than the Kangas will get in their entire history.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
MC,
Nonetheless, still a STFS attached…
Of course I don’t have a problem as much as Pipp and you who have all said that Grooky never received government funding after SJ, Jimbo and myself kept telling you for what .. 8 months, so senility has come before your time lads, not sure of your age but I guess fair younger than me.. Hmm I wouldn’t place too much faith in American propaganda with the smell the fear syndrome spreading rapidly to traditionally thing games (that sound a bit like the Munsters) ..
~~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
Yes i seen that K.B and i also witnessed our bigger defeat, i think it was the netball team outdone a parramatta clash.
Womens sport is making a huge comeback. These are botique sports are they not K.B ? I will include womens soccer in there.
I am a big beleiver in the botique sports. I have to be because rugby league is one off them, cheers.
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Be careful Millster, you calling the irish a nothing team, i would not go down to PJ o’briens and say that.
Towser said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
MC KB
Heading a ball today is a ponces game,particularly in drizabone Australia.
A leather football in my day wet through with mud clinging to it,well I remember a dull ache & ringing. Surely you’ve noticed the abnormal posts by football fans on the Roar particularly ones like me born & raised in colder damper climes.
Training in Sheffield involved heading house bricks till the coach EJ ected the players with less than 20 stiches on their forehead during the session. In a good session a player was considered to have done well if he ended up with house bricks actually embedded in his skull.
One of the jobs of the long suffering womenfolk of Sheffield was removing house bricks after football training.
They were known locally as Malleters for obvious reasons.
Professors know nowt.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
Be careful MC,
your wife may want to turnout for the Melb Vics ladies team (7th biggest club football team in Melbourne) and leave you minding the Kidlets when and if selected for the Matildas next Olympics …
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Towser
absolutely (re the abnormal posts).
KB -
I believe we was talking regular propping up funds to the AFL – - as with what the FFA are getting, as compared to project specific funding grants to clubs and to grass roots and indigenous AFL programs that fall under the regular time frame of co-funded grants/funding available to all – - as distinct to the soccer ‘hand outs’.
Millster -
agreed re the 3 SoO matches vs ANYTHING the ‘Kangaroos’ have to face.
btw – carna roos, see that Simmo stepped down as captain. The North Melb Kangaroos face tougher opposition on a weekly basis than the RL Kangaroos. (at very least on a relative scale).
hometime.
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Just one thing about your Kangaroos being over rated. You and i know that the NRL is the best comp, hence the Team being so damm good, what you dont see is the quality of these other teams who have been mixing in with this comp and the english comp. There skills are really good compared to 8 year ago.
8 years ago they would be dropping balls and knocking on at dummy half, you dont see this Millster because you dont realise this, just as you dont recognise a truely supreme outfit, all you seem to see is soccer and there journey, fair does but dont knock the best aussie team. These guys would also play the socceroos and probably beat them without too much effort. Give you something to moan at me about that last remark, keep your venom focused on me.
Your the one doing the knocking yet you fail to see past your nose. Joey johns would have been a good soccer player, his kicking game with a rugby ball is unbeilable, the irish put some of his skills to work the other nite, imagine if they had him 24/7. Like you keep telling me, your game is huge, why try to knock a non player(league) as you keep telling me. Dont try to belittle these guys, you would shite your panties if you told them to there face. I seen that Ashton Simms sunk 2 balls from centre court the other nite Millster, the 3rd one bounced off the ring, he dont play basketball , he is a league player, does not mean if he took that sport up he would not have been good at it. These players are good sportsman, lets not just try to dissmiss this, i seen scotty prince do a dive the other week, maybe he would be good at soccer. ?
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Millster and Towser,
as the thing’s pointed end is more dangerous than a football not to mention a house brick. I can see where you are coming from Towser but trust me on this one.
nothing could compare with the “Falcon” I fear that Okiee has suffered one more then he should have
You only need to listen to Mario Fenech when he speaks the condition that medical science has documented in medical journals.. I dare say it has also extends to the Grooky lads with mistimed marks pointed ends striking their target.. so prevalent in a game of Grooky these days..
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KB
Slippery Jim said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Michael C, sorry wrong. None of that ‘fine print’ was to be found when Pippu cleary and repeatedly said that the AFL had never received a cent from any government. Too late to backpedal now, we clearly won the conversation, let’s move on.
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Okiee,
Matty and Joey johns played junior football in Newcastle and said if they had a decent team to play for they would have continued along that path and to go on and try and play for an EPL outfit; if they thought they could have made the grade.. They have been to a fair few Newcastle Jets home games last HAL season and have said so .. Still great past players of RL and all made possible due to their Football exposure at an early age with ball skills..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
You are right again SJ these acronyms are very powerful language tools .. 
MC has had one too many “Falcons” as you can see an early dementia condition; if that was not enough with his STFS ..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 6th 2008 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
Cant beat the Falcon KB
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Midfielder, what on earth are you talking about..? (no one else need reply)
I must say you are not telling the true story there sunshine.. The Grooky lads and others; I include TT with his few snipes at me.. have been relentless with their continued demeaning of a Football code that has given to me so much enjoyment and thousands of kids in Australia ..
nice piece you wrote about me …
You are dead wrong … MC and his cronies have written far more crap about Football on Football Threads than I have written on AFL or NRL or RU threads. In fact I hardly go there anymore and try just to post up items of interest on Football only threads, only to get a negative response from him and others, which I duly reply back with conviction…. If you want to roll over like one of their puppies go right ahead, but I shall return fire.. every time.. I think TT is old enough to respond to me without you explaining my state of mind..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Ronnie said | November 6th 2008 @ 7:36pm | Report comment
I think it’d been a very big shock if HAL attendances had actually grown this season. The A-League has done well in it’s short history and has even overshot the FFA’s own growth targets.
Football is a representative sport played at international level. Australians almost always support a sport at only it’s highest level.
We should therefore be comparing apples with apples. HAL attendances dump all over the awful crowd numbers for domestic cricket and Union numbers (anybody remember the ARC????)
Westy is so right … 8 teams has become monotonous and predictable. MV vs. SFC 3 times per season is too much of a good thing. More variety is needed.
More of a drag is that 25% of HAL teams are in Perth and Wellington – 2 underperforming teams isolated far from the vital eastern seaboard market. Who wants to watch them? And this is touches on the real impediment to the HAL – football of any code in Australia is a parochial thing and thrives on local derbies.
The A-League desperately needs more derbies (eg. MV vs. Melbourne Heart ; Qld Roar vs. GC United ; SFC vs. Western Sydney ; The Gong vs. SFC) to drive attendances and interest. It’s too hard to maintain interest in the larger cities when games are staged there on average once per fortnight.
And what of AFL and NRL attendances????
When speaking of more derbies let’s not sink to the laughable standards of the AFL and NRL. Whenever either talk up their ‘fantastic’ attendance figures keep in mind both codes enjoy the absurd luxury of a whopping 9 suburban teams in their leagues! A ludicrous number by global standards. You can’t have a truly national competition consisting of 50%+ suburban clubs!
Imagine what AFL home attendances would be like for the Melbourne-based clubs in particular and the AFL in general if there were fewer suburban teams and more interstate teams – averages would trend back to MV averages.
The fact the NRL has poor averages even with 9 teams in Sydney shows how badly it underperforms the AFL!! It’s only a matter of time before HAL catches the NRL.
I’ve only 2 personal whinges about the A-League:
1. The Qld. Roar should drop the “Qld.” and rebrand itself as Brisbane Roar (esp. with GCU and Townsville entering in 09/10)
2. The FFA needs to get rid of that bloody awful and ghoulish “90 minutes, 90 emotions” ad and get back to the concept of “Football but not as you know it.” It’s not long before the dills at Cricket Australia get a summer Twenty20 comp. up and running in Oz, so c’mon FFA – start marketing the HAL better!
Koala Bear said | November 6th 2008 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
oikee,
They must be all accountants… say no more… 
Its good to read some of your replies retaining a sense of humour .. Only God knows why there are so few humorous lads on here .. good on ya laddie…
~~~~~~~
KB
paul said | November 6th 2008 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Did someone on here question my intergrity? I may follow league and although I shopuld not have to defend my honour I will in this case.
http://www.melbournevictory.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47374&page=23
paste the link and see the 2 4 1 freebie deal. 18,000 ha! the afl do the same thing with their auskick as well. so I don’t want any one bagging footy crowds in Sydney. Sydney is a tough place to live and work especially if you typical blue collar working class slat of the earth leaguies.
Norm said | November 6th 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
KB….”They must be all accountants… say no more”…..indeed some of our fellow Roar bloggers have come out of the closet on this one…True Tah & Midfielder to name two ( excuse the pun KB )…which is why your precise description of the athletically toned nubile W-league footballers had zero impact on those two. Just picture the evening bedroom scene at their homes…not tonight dear, I have the tax act to read.
jimbo said | November 6th 2008 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
KB,
What’s the definition of an accountant?
Someone who solves a problem you didn’t know you had in a way you don’t understand.
Midfielder said | November 6th 2008 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
Jimbo
CEO to engineer what is two and two , engineer says 4, CEO to advertising manager whats two and two four by what a weird question and it goes on until he get to the accountant . whats two and two …. whatever you want it to be boss ………old but passable …….
Michael C said | November 7th 2008 @ 5:32am | Report comment
Ronnie -
good post.
However – your points re AFL and NRL are interesting. For the NRL their ‘Sydney’ traditional ‘heartland’/'power base’ has actually been their achilles heel in recent times. Crowd averages on decline in Sydney whilst the crowds from QLD have been inflating the averages.
In the AFL, the Melb ‘traditional heartland’/'power base’ is thus far rather much more robust – - and less ‘fractured’ than the Sydney sporting ‘marketplace’.
As it is, for both codes – having a home ‘bastion’ different to the other code means that they have different but nonetheless compelling broadcast rights value propositions.
Comparing to the rest of the world is a redundant exercise. No one else operates so many ‘national’ footy codes across such a big country-continent with such a small domestic population. And only England (UK) was establishing clubs and competitions at the same time as Melbourne.
In both the AFL and NRL – you wouldn’t ‘design’ the competition structures as is – - but, that’s how they have evolved – - and that compares differently to a lot of effectively ‘deisgned’ leagues overseas.
Ronnie from Lonnie said | November 7th 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Michael C – it really is a tale of 2 extremities with the NRL and AFL, eh? Under Wayne Jackson (bring him back!) the AFL did all the right things and the clubs started growing their membership revenues. As for the NRL – league wars, an increasing and perhaps fatal addiction to pokies revenue, and an influx of migrants with no affiliation to League into their heartlands. Achilles heel indeed. Plus, the AFL has the enviable advantage of being headquartered in arguably the world’s most sports mad city.
Both the AFL and NRLs’ roots developed in the relative isolation experienced by the colonies of Victoria and NSW. Australia is unique in the world – many railroad guages and many football codes. Very complex and worth a book to explain the situation. Check this interesting site …
http://www.convictcreations.com/football/sport.htm
NRL needs to expand into WA and SA to put the “national” into NRL.
The AFL – instead of stacking it’s league with extra teams, the AFL Commission should show the balls to replace 2 Melbourne teams with GC and W Sydney (Jackson would’ve, Demetrigoof won’t). Then cut 2 more Melbourne teams to get league numbers down to a manageable 14 – then scrap the silly pre-season comp. so teams play one another twice per season (26 rounds). 16 teams each in the AFL and NRL is a lot for a country with a population of 21 million (9.5 mill. in the “AFL states” and 11.5 in the “NRL states”)
Like many footy addicts I appreciate and enjoy 2 codes (Australian football, moreso football) and 2 leagues (AFL and A-League) which means year-round football. Even better for EPL fans. Yeeaahhh! Understanding 2 codes is like driving auto or manual – easy!
At least with football there isn’t the farcical situation that occurs at the end of each AFL and NRL season – the bouncer flicks the lights and bellows “Show’s over, folks, come back in 6 months.”
I seriously wonder how people following exclusively League or Australian football or Union cope over the summer months without some form of football action. It’s must be like going cold turkey because a diet of cricket sure ain’t an adequate substitute!
Cheerz.
Michael C said | November 7th 2008 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Ronnie -
for us AFL only ‘football’ followers – a couple of things happen:
October – the month of weddings, engagement parties etc
late Oct/Nov – spring racing carnival, suddenly you’re getting 80K-110K to Flemington every second day.
Cricket season
for a couple of weeks we pay attention to tennis
camping and fishing season – - suddenly the snow fields become hiking and camping trails
holiday season – - with a distinct winter season, we make the most of the summer months to get out and about.
- – - – build up anticipation for the new season.
That’s how the summer months progress……..but, certainly, for some, they pay attention to varying degrees to the HAL and EPL etc. Certainly the MVFC have benefitted from the capacity for AFL fans of different clubs who go their separate ways in winter to get together and go to the one game/venue together.
- – - –
so, ’shows over folks’, come back in 6 months isn’t really that bad……it keeps ‘em keen.
I gain the impression there are many soccer folk who seriously don’t follow any other sport. And would have kids play ONLY soccer or soccer derivatives from perhaps age 5 or 6.
That to me is just crazed.
For me, there’s a whole world of sports, play a bit of everything. And that’s where something like Aust Footy can fit nicely too, because, for an Irish lad who plays rugby and Gaelic, as an adult, he can play Aust Footy and combine the 2 skills sets reasonably well into the one game. LIkewise a Canadian who has played volleyball, soccer and basketball. This is more about the transition from a school kid dabbling at everything to a recreational adult who is time and cash challenged fitting 1 sport around their life responsibilities.
Koala Bear said | November 7th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
paul said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:44am (2 days ago) | Report comment
SFC got 18,000. Anybody who bought a paper last week got a buy one get one free voucher. That is the reason I went. Will never go again though.
Paul,
yes I question your claim and an unofficial Melbourne Victory blog site is hardly proof of your claim especially as the fixture you refer to was SFC v CCM at the SFS… Was it the Melbourne Sun Herald paper you bought..?
btw: are you an accountant..? I have a goodie for you…. A newly bunch of departed earthly souls arrive at the Pearly Gate to be greeted by St Peter to register in the book of heaven. Where Archangel Gabriel was ushering in the newly arrivals .. St Peter bellows out, Murders, Thieves Liars, Accounts and Solicitors to the left … All others please proceed to the next check point…
~~~~~~~
KB
hazza said | November 7th 2008 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
More than 1.2million people have watched HAL/SOCCEROO games so far. Memberships are up, tv ratings up 7%.
My guesstimate says that home/Away attendances will be down 4%-6%. Home/Away attendances will make comeback because Victory will play 5 of its last 7 games at home with blockbusters against ADELAIDE and SYDNEY included.
FINALS SERIES: Crowds will be up 30% on last year. Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Queensland will make up top 4 for first time in A LEAGUE HISTORY. I predict that the finals series will be watched by over 200 000 people( record attendance for A LEAGUE). Crowds will more likely be up by years end.
paul said | November 7th 2008 @ 11:01pm | Report comment
KB, the blog site contains a scan of the voucher that appeared in the paper, that is why I used it. The blog is one that talks about a-league crowds generally and in this case was bagging SFC as, the way I understand it, MVFC hates SFC with a passion. Why such vitriol and hate I don’t understand, the language leaves much to be desired. I can understand a rivalry but a healthy one should be preferred to one based on some attempt to recreate what happens in the UK.
Koala Bear said | November 8th 2008 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Paul,
I see; a Newspaper Daily Telegraph promotion not really a SFC freebie as such .. I believe the papers have on occasions, with the NRL’s blessing did exactly the same thing for League so you have no real point to prove.. Except you are a Rugby League Fan .. good for you; I am too.. So you have contributed to the coffers of the NewsCorp Group supporting the NRL in the main; well done…
Hate is a unacceptable emotion; we have also seen a touch of that in the Bulldogs and the Easts supporters at the SFS..
~~~~~~~
KB
Saint said | November 10th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Even worse for the HAL I read an Article that crowds figures were inflated for some really poor turnouts this year. Lets face it, the honeymoon is over and all those bandwagon supporters that jumped on in 2006 have had enough of this boring compitition. The hype is over and the HAL can not survive on substance because it lacks everything a strong compitition needs to thrive and survive, no superstars and never will be, no quality, Europe is where the real soccer is and where the real professional players are and anyone who plays in the A-league is merely a dud in my eyes. These A-league players are not good enough to make it to the big leagues and the FFA believe we should actually sit through this stink for 90 minutes and try to enjoy it.
I called it’s demise when this all started but I didn’t expect crowds to start going backwards after just year 3. Maybe 10 years of hair pulling was suitable but perhaps fans have lost their patience already. It’s a weed that can not die, a disease that can not be cured if you try and run a 3rd rate compitition. Just ask the NBL how it all unfolds……
Soccer will always have a strong presence in Oz with the Socceroos but a Professional league will never cut it. Expansion will not account to much for the A-league because Glory and Phoenix will be lucky to see out the decade.
Michael C said | November 10th 2008 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Saint -
it’s interesting that the global financial crisis may allow the cracks to be painted over – for some.
it’s interesting that the ‘official’ line seems to be that the 8 team competition has become ’stale’……………….after 3 years??
Reality, is that in Brisbane and Sydney, crowds stagnated or dropped from the outset. Their honeymoon period ended pretty soon. And MVFC in V2 and Wellington Phoenix in V3 allowed those cracks to be painted over.
Just how the game progress in attempted to expand to a 14 team league – - is a very interesting question.
And just how much the lower tier (domestic club comp) can thrive when the higher tiers (ACL and socceroos and other international soccer) potentially cast large shadows will be interesting to see.
Just how much individual clubs might rely on wealthy benefactor style ‘personal sponsors’ is another thing.
AGain though – - it’s one thing to be a prophet of doom. It’s another to simply view this as a very, very interesting case study. the rebranding of a football code. the rebranding of a football league. the sponsorship of govt. the attempts to market the resultant product and grow it in a crowded sporting (footballing) marketplace. It’s fascinating.
Millster said | November 10th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
I fundamentally disagree with Saint and think his post comes from a very biased place, and one that does not understand football, nor the bases for its support at various levels.
However it is true that there is a real onus on the HAL teams to give us good quality games as ‘their end of the bargain’. And in that light, I was really disappointed in Sydney when I was walking out of the SFS on Friday night. 13000 had come to see them play, a decent crowd against the Phoenix. Problem is that Sydney FC didn’t show up on the night, and I would guess that the game was a disincentive for non-regular supporters to attend again anytime soon.
MC – your thoughts are interesting. I can’t help but think that on the one hand Socceroos and ACL and foreign leagues might cast large shadows over HAL, but on the other they are vital in getting the ‘primary interest’ in football up, some of which will translate to participation in the HAL. So it is a delicate balance – part symbiotic and part parasitic.
Michael C said | November 10th 2008 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Millster -
exactly – that balance between symbiotic and parasitic will be interesting.
I just reckon in a ‘virgin’ footballing market, that it would be very much more skewed to ’symbiotic’, however, in Australia which is a crowded ‘footballing market’, and a crowded ’sporting market’ including national teams of many descriptions – that it might naturally tend to be more skewed to the ‘parasitic’ side of the graph.
And in large part due to the environmental factors associcated with geographically vast but isolated country (single country continent), associated with small domestic population and one that is in large already associated with ‘primary’ footy domestically and soccer more broadly.
Basically – as none of the off-shore templates quite fits. People can talk all they like about overseas examples and what they forecast as logical assumptions of cause and effect (in a vacuum). In Australia, the rules don’t necessarily apply.
Millster said | November 10th 2008 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
100% agree. But that makes life so difficult for the FFA. We can’t fully model ourselves on overseas football leagues. But equally we can’t (and shouldn’t be lured into) model ourselves on the other Australian domestic codes which have a totally different structure and environment. It really will be a case of trying to find our way. The one thing I hope is that some regular opportunity for HAL – MLS dialogue exists as I see the teasing out of some issues that are common in both geographies as potentially very valuable. Not saying they should adopt identical things though, just share and discuss based on some similar circumstances.
Towser said | November 10th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
Millster
Re SFC on Friday.
If ManU didnt turn up one match it doesnt matter.
Their fans have locked in memories of thousands of matches when they did.
So what can JK do apart from throw his after match tirades at reporters & look like a galah.
Its his job to make sure that he inbreeds consistency into the SFC mindset.
So the performance against MV the other week starts to fade & your campaign begins to crumble on the back of the comeback by CCM & the loss to the Phoenix.
Of course professional clubs lose to other professional clubs. But its not the loss its the way it happens that is the key to retaining fans long term particularly in a new league..
So say Sydney had played well ,professionally, effort couldnt be doubted. However Phoenix were better on the day Ricki Herberts men thoroughly deserved their win by say superior tactics for instance.
But no the general consensus(& my opinion also as I watched the match) was that SFC were pathetic in comparison with the 2 previous matches in general play.
Consistency is the key. I should know the Roars home record is consistently bad. So much so that if they havent scored at half time the crowd know that the away team will pop one in shut up shop,game over.
On the JK incident & GVE yesterday. Are Australian coaches developed enough(& I mean this in a football emotional sense)
To handle professional football & the media scrutiny it brings?
Frank Farina said last week that the people who criticise him for the Roars poor home record have never played football at the same level as him ,they have no right.
Fans like me assume that includes us.
I wonder what Frank thinks professional football is about. My impression is that its a plaything for his own ego ,the orange coloured mugs who sit at Suncorp every home match are just figments of his imagination.
Australians are finding out that theres more to professional football & running a professional club than at first meets the eye.
Maybe a few overseas professionals in all areas are still needed here?
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Towser -
re SFC :
Ernie Merrick on SEN radio this morning. Spoke of how MVFC are travelling and treating each game the same, i.e. playing for a win. He said, unlike Europe, and quoted his ‘inspiration’ as South AMerica AND AFL, that teams play to win each game – - he figures if you only play for a draw, for the 1 pt, then, realistically you limit you possible outcomes of 0 or 1 pt. If you attempt to win, then your range of possible outcomes includes the 3 pt option.
Perhaps, SFC need to adopt some of that mentality and call it ’soccer the Australianway’,……..i.e. play to win.
re the coaches – the FFA needs to introduce AFL style ‘gagging’ (it actually works) and encourage coaches off the field so that the coaches themselves can’t get embroiled in on field ‘incidents’.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Good point MC.
There’s a very good article in 442 on that very same subject (Ernie’s approach to winning games):
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/88286,blog-one-point-will-never-suffice.aspx
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Playing for three points every time is easy in a league where there is no threat of relegation. Where a point can be the difference between staying in a league, you have to think more strategically.
In Australia in all sports, If you lose who cares, it’s not as if you run the risk of dropping down a league, losing sponsors, key players, TV right etc. It’s sport lite – all reward and no risk.
It this regard much of Australian sport isn’t the real world, it’s shielded from the realities of modern sport as a business. It’s a throwback. Sport without the nasty bits.
There is an emphasis placed on entertainment and having a cavalier approach that just wouldn’t wash in Europe.
“Soccer, the Australian way” would quite frankly be laughed at by the big money leagues.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
hmmm, Pippinu………….I wonder who could’ve penned such a fine article??
btw – Ernie admitted that the Eureka flag WAS hanging in the rooms pre-game.
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment
The AFL is a great example of the artificial nature of Australian sport….
As Australian academic Harry Rosenbloom (a Melbourne boy) so eloquently puts it…
“There are sixteen teams in the AFL, and every year half of them get to play in the finals. This means that aspirants only have to win 12 games — they only have to win one more game than they lose throughout the season — to make the finals. Is there any elite sporting competition in the world which basks in such mediocrity?
Many years ago, there was a ‘final four’ in a 12-club competition. That made sense logistically, and felt about right. But it didn’t last long once commercial interests took hold. Once the four started being stretched to five and then six, the game was up.
Of course, you won’t get any discussion about this in the media (especially in the TV networks that cover the sport). You won’t hear or read of footy fans complaining about it. None of the clubs are against it. And the AFL commission – they just love it.
It’s a virtuous circle: everybody’s happy. Just think about the benefits: the fans get to daydream about their side making the finals well into each season; the networks get to attract advertising for games that would be dead rubbers; the sponsors get extra mileage; the radio stations and the press get to talk and speculate endlessly about the importance of each game every round; the ground managers get to fill their stadiums; the clubs get to sell more membership tickets during the year and to offer hope every new season; and the AFL gets a fortune for broadcasting rights.
There’s also the small matter of extra finals, each with large-to-massive attendances, having to be played each year. And several of them get played in the late afternoon or evening, when the dew makes the ground slippery and conditions are often tough for the players, but there’s a prime-time TV audience watching all around the country. (And there’s continuous pressure from TV for the grand final to be played at night — what a lip-smacking advertising bonanza that would be.)
This is win-win-win, a beautiful, triple bottom-line.
The only trouble is, it’s a carefully confected bit of fairy floss. What’s worse, it feels like the worst parts of the Australian character coming together: a ruthless pursuit of material gain; a dumbing down of values and principles; a worship of ordinariness; and a triumph for patronising managerialism.”
Dave said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Saint
And can you provide a link to this “article” ? Seems like you are coming from a certain direction with you little tirade.
HAL crowds have far surpassed expectations 3 1/2 yrs into the comp so dont know how you could have “called it” ?
Your judgement on the players doesnt cut as a number of HAL players have been good enough to move to the Euro leagues and seem to be doing fine. The 2 AU players Burns and Djite most recently.
Vicentin said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
woo hoo – I’ve got a new local hero. Harry Rosenbloom! – That’s gold, particularly that last paragraph. Lord forbid that anyway might challenge our worship of ordinariness …no wonder some of you guys are so paranoid about football getting any kind of toehold.
Sadly, a lot of our football is rather ordinary at the moment too ….but hopefully that will grow.
Millster said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Tigerface – Hear hear hallelujah and I am doing a war dance in joy around my office at your last 2 postings….
You couldn’t have written what I’ve been trying to bang on about for a year any better. Sports lite – that is gold!
Plus of course add in the facets like drafts and salary caps so that not only is there zero risk of a team ‘dropping down’, but in fact these so-called comps are substantially re-levelled each year so as to maintain some artificial semblance of competition that is totally removed from performance or merit.
Vicentin said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
and yes, I also enjoyed your last two posts Mr Tigerface. And thanks again for the Rosenbloom quote – is there a link to this article … for future reference?
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Some interesting views from Tigerface.
“Playing for three points every time is easy in a league where there is no threat of relegation.” – But that’s the reality of an 8 team A-League at the moment. Easy or not, only one team can win the double, and it will inevitably go to the team best able to play for the win (which was Melbourne 2 seasons ago). In terms of the big European leagues? Surely it’s even easier for the big clubs to go for the three points, and the rest can suit themsleves (look at the top 4 of the EPL – it’s back to the same old faces, despite the promise of others finally breaking through).
“If you lose who cares, it’s not as if you run the risk of dropping down a league, losing sponsors, key players, TV right etc. It’s sport lite – all reward and no risk.” Clubs do lose sponsors, they do lose key players – in fact clubs disappear all the time – what on Earth are you on about?!
Re the AFL’s various idiosyncracies: 50% of teams making finals, salary cap, drafts, etc – is this truly anymore “contrived” than the prize always going to the team with the wealthiest backer? It’s not as if Manchester United regularly fields a starting XI made up of boys born and bred in Manchester.
The maths of this Rosenbloom is a little bit awry as well. He says you can make the 8 with 12 wins (true, and you can miss it with the same amount of wins) but that’s two wins more than you lose, not one – I’m not sure if this guy has much credibility after a simple error like that.
I note that he is willing to excuse a top 4, but has a great dislike for a top 8 – but surely that’s just a personal value judgement? Why is any particular finals system necessarily with more merit just because it has fewer teams in it? The ultimate winner has to negotiate at least 3 wins at the business end of the season to win the flag – we see that as the ultimate test – the team capable of withstanding the pressure wins the prize – what’s wrong with that?
Do you have a preference for a team being able to win the World Cup after only managing a draw??
In the Asian Cup, South Korea claimed 3rd spot on the back of 3 consecutive nil-all draws. Is that anymore desireable than a finals system that demands the ultimate winner must win at least three games against the best team in the land??
Re salary caps – it’s true that that has an equalising effect – a bit like ensuring that in a motor race, all cars have similar specifications. Is it “contrived” competition or does it epitomise competition?
Re the draft – there is a myth that bottom teams automatically rise to the top because of preferential draft choices. The facts and figures don’t support that. Geelong is the strongest team of the last two seasons, and yet it has never finished lower than 11th for over 20 years. Carlton, in 1995, and Essendon, in 2000, had record breaking seasons, and yet at no stage did they have access to favourable draft choices. St Kilda did have access to favourable draft choices, and yet, has not made a grand final.
The reality is that drafts aren’t a panacea for success, and that they are fraught with risk. The decisions that are open to a club are endless (smalls or talls? forwards, mids or backs? kids or mature players?) – there is no single correct answer to this choice. Any kid from 1 to 99 can be the star of the century. James Hird was taken at around number 80. There are many, many stories like this. The draft process itself is of massive interest to the enthusiast.
At the end of the day, the coach has to mould a team that can survive the rigours of a full season, and a finals series, in the most demanding team game on Earth. No one hands you the prize for turning up – you have to go earn it.
In the meantime, there are clubs in Europe that can field three different line-ups, all capable of winning one piece of silverware or another. Is that the purity in sport that some here are seeking?
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Tigerface – bit of a silly artilce to reproduce, did you actually read it with a half way critical eye?
Is there any elite sporting competition in the world which basks in such mediocrity
just in Australia for allowing minimum half the teams to make the finals :
okay, the NRL was a 15 team comp with a top 8, now is a 16 team comp with a top 8.
the NBL – - what was it, a 12 team comp with a top 8??
oh, and the HAL, 4 out of 8.
This means that aspirants only have to win 12 games — they only have to win one more game than they lose throughout the season — to make the finals.
Have you looked at the current A-League ladder? The top 4 –
1 Melbourne Victory FC played 11 won 6
2 Adelaide United FC played 10 won 5
3 Sydney FC played 11 won 4
4 Queensland Roar FC played 11 won 4
and 1 pt out in 5th place are CCM, played 10 and won 3. And note, QLD have lost 4 too. They haven’t even won more than they have lost, and they’re in a play off position?!?!??!
so – - soccer, a game where you don’t even have to win at least half your games to make the finals.
Of course, you won’t get any discussion about this in the media (especially in the TV networks that cover the sport). You won’t hear or read of footy fans complaining about it.
wrong – you do actually. However, most annoying over the journey has been the dumbed down tv broadcasts. But, via print and radio, there’s always sufficient discussion, and questioning the value of in many cases busting a gut to ‘over perform’ an average list to just make the finals. As distinct to focussing on ‘rebuilding’ the list via promoting youth and perhaps accessing better draft picks by giving up on aiming for mid-table finishing. The debate about whether there’s too much reward for finishing LESS well than a team could is a strong debate, and possible solutions include a US style ‘lottery’ draft system or allocating draft positions after round 10 – as very few teams will be willing to ‘tank’ right from the outset. No, make no mistake, this IS discussed over and over again. Only a silly minded academic would be too hoighty toighty to read the Herald Sun or listen to a 24 hour sports radio station!!!
Many years ago, there was a ‘final four’ in a 12-club competition. That made sense logistically, and felt about right. But it didn’t last long once commercial interests took hold. Yes, yes, and yes – - except, the final point forgets that that 12 team Melbourne based competition was financially going down the gurgler. Perhaps there might have been an ‘other’ means of ‘rescue’, but, given the present position of strength, I guess we need to admit that the ‘rescue path’ taken wasn’t too bad. Really. Certainly not a ‘perfect by design’. But, no one claims that. What with 16 teams into 22 rounds, and 10 in Victoria. We know that.
It’s a virtuous circle: everybody’s happy.
What a dopey comment. Just ask how happy St.Kilda fans are or Bulldogs fans. ONly ever had their club win 1 premiership in a 12 team comp back in ‘66 and ‘54 respectively. With the AFL expanding to 18 teams in the foreseeable future. What odds any supporters seeing a premiership in their lifetime? People certainly are NOT deliriously happy. And, often will have to content with just trying to WIN a finals match in a giving year as their ‘reward’. And, reality is, just as during the season there’s ‘always next week’, well, just making the finals is considered an optimistic base for there being ‘always next year’.
And several of them get played in the late afternoon or evening, when the dew makes the ground slippery and conditions are often tough for the players,
this sounds like the comments circa 1985 when North Melb first started playing night games at the MCG, and based peoples mid winter experiences at Waverley (Arctic park).
Reality is, night matches in September aren’t nearly as affected. That fans actually quite like night matches (my preferred time slot was always Friday nights). And being a little slippery or not is okay, ‘cos, sometimes it rains too. We used to play in mud, including chopped up centre cricket pitch blocks. If the trade of is a little evening due in place of ankle deep mud?? (mud that could wreck knees when it was hardening in the sun but still sticky).
Norm said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Michael C
Tigerface makes just as much sense as Saint does.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Tigerface -
Playing for three points every time is easy in a league where there is no threat of relegation. Where a point can be the difference between staying in a league, you have to think more strategically.I play in the VAFA where we have 7 grades of P&R – but, since it’s footy, we don’t play for draws. So, we don’t have that problem……must be something about soccer??
In Australia in all sports, If you lose who cares, it’s not as if you run the risk of dropping down a league, losing sponsors, key players, TV right etc. It’s sport lite – all reward and no risk.actually you can and do lose sponsors – - i.e. sponsors MUCH prefer winners. Winners make the finals and offer ‘bonus’ exposure. Also, the AFL rewards ‘winners’ via the fixtures each year – the ‘winners’ effectively earn the FTA and Friday night prime exposure. There certainly is real world corporate reward and penalty.
It this regard much of Australian sport isn’t the real world, it’s shielded from the realities of modern sport as a business. It’s a throwback. Sport without the nasty bits.All sport is shield to some degree……….that’s the point……….a bit of escapism……….we let ourselves believe that we are a better person on Monday should our team win on Saturday……..actually, AFL fans probably know better than many followers of other ‘codes’. Our clubs are all member based clubs rather than privately owned franchises. That makes us very much interested in the ’sport as a business’ aspect and it’s impact on our clubs.
There is an emphasis placed on entertainment and having a cavalier approach that just wouldn’t wash in Europe.
is that a bad thing?
“Soccer, the Australian way” would quite frankly be laughed at by the big money leagues.
that’s the fine line then for a domestic soccer league in this country – - and given the ongoing loss of players overseas to the better money and the better ‘learning’ environments – - it seems that the only way to turn that around is to kill off the ‘entertainment’ notion of sports in Australia, claim all the financial might of the NRL and AFL and provide us with a domestic soccer league fully appreciative of playing for a draw……………………..spare us, please!!!
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Sorry…I was sent the copy on an email a while back. I just thought it was the most awesome thing I’d read in years.
spot on. The worship of the ordinary.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Norm -
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:37am | Report comment
The most demanding team game on Earth.
Nonsense.
Imagine a world in which the entire world is a global marketplace for players. Where a manager can be sacked for losing fives games on the spin. Where the worth of one player often exceed the revenue of an entire AFL club.
Imagine a sport where the best of the best battle across a global playground, were different languages, philosophies and ideals have to be fused in the pursuit of glory, where history and modernity collide.
Imagine a sport where global scrutiny of the players means they become brands in their own right, as big as clubs in some cases. Where nationality means nothing in the desire to find winners,
Born in Manchester? Who cares, we’ll take an Argentinian over you. Imagine a world where to have a top class career in your native country you need to be able to perform on a global level, no excuses. no sentiment. Only the best. Sporting recruitment at it’s most pure. No salary caps, so restrictions.
Imagine a sport where home grounds are sacred, not shared. Your home is your fortress, your history, your life.
A sport that teaches you art, strategy, history and politics.
That game is football and it’s to many Australian’s eternal shame that they have such a tortured relationship with it.
I suppose it’s a bit like the Cadbury’s Gorilla advert. The only nation on earth where it caused a drop in sales was Australia. We just didn’t get it.
We embarass ourselves too often with our desire for more the easy and simple: AFL is that product.
I don’t dislike AFL but I dislike much of what it stands for.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Tigerface -
cheers -
worship or the ordinary is harsh.
The reality is that for an ‘elite’ competition in a small country (population wise) like Australia (large geography) – that for a ‘positively skewed’ rule set game like AFL – the gap between the top teams and the next tier has stretched way too far. P&R could never work. (on present structures). The capacity to carry a suitable standard and resourced and supported 2nd tier are severely reduced……………..by comparison to England for example.
Also, the nature of soccer allows a greater capacity to NOT be blown away most of the time on the scoreboard. On the whole mediocrity argument, soccer can encourage 10 men behind the ball simply aiming to achieve a draw. Now – - the comment of Peter Roebuck I think yesterday regarding India in the cricket was along the lines that they should seek to ‘win’ the game/trophy in a ‘winning way’ with men around the bat. They shortly there after, changed their line of ‘attack’, got Hussey and Hayden and ended up winning in ’style’ and going 2-0 rather than strangling a draw to take the series 1-0.
Somewhere down the line…….AFL for all it’s faults, forces a team to ‘win’ a game over 4 quarters rather than just defending, seeking not to concede and then leave it for a last 10 minute burst, or alternatively scoring once early and seeking to just defend that lead.
There’s winning and there’s winning. There’s ordinary and there’s ordinary.
NOt many AFL coaches keep their jobs if they keep losing.
Not many AFL players retain their position on a list if they aren’t up to it.
There aren’t many ‘micro’ rewards for losing. High draft picks a little consolation for the 7 or so players cut at seasons end of which at best 1 might find another club.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Tigerface -
same bulltish the world over………only the number of zeroes varies.
Don’t over estimate it all.
A livelihood lost is a harder ‘hit’ to the individual if the nest egg built up during the ‘career’ is relatively smaller.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Tigerface
It’s an interesting discussion.
” The most demanding team game on Earth. Nonsense. Imagine a world in which the entire world is a global marketplace for players. Where a manager can be sacked for losing fives games on the spin. Where the worth of one player often exceed the revenue of an entire AFL club. ”
* I used the adjective “demanding” to denote the athleticism required. The average AFL player will cover far more distance, and at a greater average rate of knots, far higher than any other football code on Earth. In fact, if you do the comparisons, there’s day light. That’s something the sports scientists in the AIS know only too well – but others choose to ignore when they partake in these flights of whimsy.
” Imagine a sport where the best of the best battle across a global playground, were different languages, philosophies and ideals have to be fused in the pursuit of glory, where history and modernity collide. ”
* Plenty of history – but not much modernity! In fact, FIFA has an absolute disdain for the modern – change is extremely slow. The rulebook has barely changed in over 135 years.
” Born in Manchester? Who cares, we’ll take an Argentinian over you. Imagine a world where to have a top class career in your native country you need to be able to perform on a global level, no excuses. no sentiment. Only the best. Sporting recruitment at it’s most pure. No salary caps, so restrictions. ”
* Increasingly, that top class career is to be found in one, maybe two countries – the remainder of the world is running dross competitions in comparison. There is no top class careeer anywhere else.
” Imagine a sport where home grounds are sacred, not shared. Your home is your fortress, your history, your life. ”
* Unless you’re Juventus, and have to play in the much despised Stadio Olimpico, where they occasionally draw less than 1,000 fans to a game.
” A sport that teaches you art, strategy, history and politics. ”
* I would have thought our very own game teaches far more about these things than a foreign game, especially when our own game is actually much older. Within our own cultural context, our own game inspires far more art and literature than the foreign game.
” I suppose it’s a bit like the Cadbury’s Gorilla advert. The only nation on earth where it caused a drop in sales was Australia. We just didn’t get it. ”
* Are you suggesting that we should stoop to the lowest common denominator at all times?
” We embarass ourselves too often with our desire for more the easy and simple: AFL is that product. ”
* Many would argue that the world game is a simple game, and is easily understood and that’s why it appeals to most of the world (I should hasten to add that there are significant parts of the world where the game is barely followed.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
MC
I’ll apologise for saying you wrote this article due to gloating
If you want to avoid that in the future perhaps give a reason why the crowd is falling and something constructive in how to improve the crowd number instead of just stating a fact that most people already know.
THis may avoid AFL propaganda accusations.
Cheers
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
Pip
I agree with most of your argument but I do believe football in Australia has a fair bit to offer about art, strategy, history and politics from an Australian context just as much as any other sports like AFL, RL RU etc(especially the politics section).
First playing of Advance Australian Fair in 1973 for any national side instead of god save the queen
Playing football in the middle of Vietnam War
FIrst aborigenes representing national team
THe classic successful migrant stories that is abundant in football.
Australian national team playing against Iraq during and after our involvement in htat country
Ethnic clashes – sure it’s not positive but I think some Australian learn more about european history due to these events
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
dasilva
I just thought that Tigerface’s outlandish statements were worthy of a response.
At the end of the day, it’s the old argument: everyone in the world is doing it, and so should we, and if we’re not, then we are clearly defective as a nation and a people. (then going on to blame the media and the AFL for corrupting the freewill of people in choosing what they prefer to spend their own money on, as if they have been mesmerised by a hypnotist or brainwashed by an evil scientist).
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
dasilva -
the word limit meant that I couldn’t write the greater ‘what does it mean’ component of the article.
So, forgive me for that.
The main reason initially was to make a quantative ‘forecast’, and provide a range of best vs worst case scenarios. They actually got edited out. The proposition being based on those scenarios – - – what does it mean?
and of course, is it simply indicative of the GFC? or is there a ‘lag’ impact of that still to come? Given there’s apparently still the worst to come, i.e. reduced employment as a lag, esp after xmas – - then, perhaps the worst is still to come. The question is, for a young League, how much ‘fat’ is there to absorb it all?
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
By the way – the Herald Sun is reporting that the AFL will cut back on expenditure by $5mill next calendar year as a result of the GFC – their first drop in outlays since 1990. This is the first time I have heard of comp or body being directly affected by the GFC. Is there more news to come??
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
* I used the adjective “demanding” to denote the athleticism required. The average AFL player will cover far more distance, and at a greater average rate of knots, far higher than any other football code on Earth. In fact, if you do the comparisons, there’s day light. That’s something the sports scientists in the AIS know only too well – but others choose to ignore when they partake in these flights of whimsy.
Pipp,
All your replies to Tigarface are wrong! .. But the most significant is the above.. I have stated this before after watching AFL stats on TV Saturday avo games. Almost every time the “ground covered” by an AFL team over a quarter was consistently only 19 klms give or take a klm over the quarter.. (20 min) This was noted by me on the Saturday afternoon games on CH 10… In comparison the Footballer stat “ground covered” over 45 mins was averaging 57 klms (SBS UCL) give or take a klm over each half 45min. And please don’t come back with time added on crap no one is running when the clock stops… (busy day today shall check back later)
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Vicentin said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Off topic? If you want a classic example of worship of the ordinary here are two words for you V8 Supercars
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
“the old argument: everyone in the world is doing it, and so should we, and if we’re not, then we are clearly defective as a nation and a people”
I don’t like that message either
I felt that I got a message that because everyone else in Adelaide and perhaps Australia likes AFL then perhaps I am defective for not liking it. What’s wrong with us football fans being a bit different to the rest of the country?
So I guess what’s wrong with Australia being different to the rest of the world? If Australia want to be unique and have a different national sport to everyone else then so be it. Australians in general are not obliged to like football because everyone else is just like I’m not obliged to like AFL because it’s the most popular sport in Australia.
Advertise football should be done by its own merit not by how popular it is.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
KB
You’re way of the mark.
Before I go to the source of the stats itself, just a basic understanding of the game would tell you that you’re wrong. For starters the ground is almost four times the area of a soccer pitch, with 18 players rather than 11 (and no offside), so that tells you straight away that the average AFL player will run at least twice the soccer player in a single game.
On top of that, because the ground is so much bigger, the opportunity to hit higher speeds is made available, and over the course of a game, the AFL player is not only running further, but a much higher average speed. That’s basic common sense. There are many reasons to attack the game of aussie rules, but not on these points.
Now go to the Aust Sports Commission site
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/sports/australian_football/home
you will read this:
An Australian Football match lasts about two hours and midfield players can run up to 20km a game.
And the range of 20 to 21 kms is certainly the sort of figure I have seen plenty of times.
The 19km you saw is clearly the average for the game per player – not for the whole team in total!!!
Now people – you might well say to me that these stats mean nothing in terms of the aesthetics or whatever – fair enough – but don’t go arguing against what the sports scientists tell us in terms of the raw data – that is all I ask!!
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
The parochialism inherent within AFL might ultimately be it it’s undoing in a quickly changing world.
I’m generally suspicious of sports where I have no idea of the quality, regardless of what Fox Sports or Seven might try and tell me. The Irish turn up every year and make me feel even more suspicious about AFL. International rules is alway eye-opening.
I’ve often wondered what the obsession with our history, our context because no matter how you spin it its pretty poorly presented.
I give you this example. I’m always appalled that at the start of the AFL season, The Age will do a pull out on the draft and have a separate section for the Indigenous players. It’s a bit like the UK in the 1970’s when newspapers would speculate on what an all black team would look like. When will these proud Australians just be treated like every other player. Is this too much to ask in 2008?
I fear it might be for the average AFL fan. You see, “That’s just all part of the history” seems to be fine even when the way that history is presented is still fundamentally racist and backwards.
DaSilva’s comments about footballs progressive nature are interesting but to the average Australian football and it’s world are always looked on with a degree of suspicion, you see….it’s just a bit different.
My issue with AFL is that in so many ways it is an affront to a forward facing and progressive Australia.
AFL may be older but it’s history and impact on the world is a millionth of football and it’s a part of history we sadly missed a major part in. I just hope we can still grab a piece of it.
It still disturbs be that when watching the Socceroos, the commentators still feel the need to point out the ethnic origins of any player with an foreign sounding name. This not progressive. As my German friend pointed this out it’s dumb and offensive. The players are either Australian or their not.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Vicentin and dasilva
I agree 100%!!!
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Tigerface
Ultimately, supporter bases and popularity are built up around parochialism. About half of all AFL clubs now have memberships hovering around the 40,000 mark or higher (world class numbers in anyone’s language) precisely because of parochialism.
What is any comp without parochialism? A game for theatre goers – people flicking on the TV because there is nothing else to watch. People in China and Australia pretend to be Man Utd fans when they will never ever see a game live, and don’t invest a cent of their hard earned directly into supporting them.
It’s this very parochialism that explains why I remain a member of an AFL club and an A-League club (despite being able to see only a couple of games a year). If I weren’t parochial, I’d hold onto my money and pretend to be interested for the hell of it, like these people in China and Australia pretending to be Man Utd fans.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Pip -
While attendances are confidently predicted to remain strong, there is speculation from some club chief executives that membership will drop significantly, possibly by more than 10 per cent.
“What’s happening financially on a global perspective is something none of us has seen in our lifetime, and on that basis, it is the unknown and the uncertainty of what lies ahead that provides food for thought as to how to approach the next 12 months to two years,” Demetriou said.
It makes all the more interesting that the FFA are ploughing on with a possible 50% increase in clubs over the next 2 years………ah well……….money is cheap if you can get it!
btw – AFL warning clubs to be ready for their own ‘firepower’ style situations. All the AFL really need focus on is screwing Telstra Dome for a better deal for North and the Bullies.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
MC
and three clubs, incl bullies, need a major sponsor – this could actually get serious.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Tigerface -
re the AGe AFL liftout????????????? what are you on about??
the AFL has lead the way in Australia regarding racial vilification.
I don’t recall what your referring to whatsoever and generally each year I get either or both of the Age or H-S editions with the players season lift outs.
You are aware though aren’t you that every 2 years an indigenous all-stars team is assembled to play an exhibition match vs an AFL club up in Darwin.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
“It still disturbs be that when watching the Socceroos, the commentators still feel the need to point out the ethnic origins of any player with an foreign sounding name. This not progressive. As my German friend pointed this out it’s dumb and offensive. The players are either Australian or their not.”
I will agree with that fully
As a child of a migrant. I’m solely an Australian citizen and not a citizen in any other country in the world and I should be treated like that (although sometimes I feel the 2nd generation migrants themselves forget that but that’s another issue).
Although saying that some players in our national team are duel citizen like Mark Viduka who’s married to a croatian women and has a house there as well. So I don’t have a particular problem with that in particular.
Unless your duel citizen. Your either Australian or you’re not
Pip
Agree 100% on fake manchester utd fans.
EPL are practicing football equivalent of colonialism.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
MC
I think Tigerface would criticise the whole prospect of an indigenous all-stars team because it separates indigenous australia from the rest of the country.
Like he said you’re either australian or you’re not.
My views
Although I don’t oppose it. I’m uncertain whether an all indigenous team symbolised national unity and perhaps represents a divide between indigenous australian and the rest of Australians. I would like to here your views on that.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
dasilva
I too wasn’t sure what Tigerface was referring to, and I agree with MC that the AFL has set very high standards in terms of combatting racial vilification (and is world’s best practice, I would have thought).
Indigenous people in many parts of Australia (not all), feel such a strong bond with the game, I would think they take great pride in an indigenous team playing another team. About 11-12% of all AFL players are in fact indigenous, which is an absolutely extraordinary percentage.
I’m not sure on what grounds anyone would ever attack the AFL over its relations with indigenous people. I would have thought the AFL has done more on this issue than any other organisation.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
I certainly agree that AFL does more for indigenous relationship then any other sporting organisation.
It was a strange critique. IF you are going to criticise anyone for not doing enough on indigenous Australians you have to pick on Cricket not AFL.
Although the idea of an indigenous all star team in AFL or RL or an Maori rugby league team does bring up an interesting question that does it shows a lack of national unity and reflect a racial divide in society. We wouldn’t really accept a racial specific team in any other ethnic groups but then again Aborigenes aren’t just any ethnic groups.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
dasilva -
Look – I’m mostly against ‘indigenous’ teams in serious competitions. However, this once every 2 year exhibition game is demanded and used by the indigenous community for specific purposes. Often to understand how, you need to tune into the ‘Marngrook’ panel show on Ch.31. Doing so blew away my cynicism towards the ‘Dreamtime at the G’ annual match between Rich and Ess.
So – whilst I’m not a fan of token gimmicks, when it’s driven by the indigenous community and used by them as a tool for education, awarenes and the like – then, fine. It’s a bit like the AFL IC included a parallel group of ‘teamAsia’, and ‘teamAfrica’ – mostly recent arrivals/refugees etc ……….. now, for an ‘introductory’ purpose – that’s fine………but, ongoing I’m not in favour of ethnic based regular season teams.
However- – there are the Fitzroy Stars team that is predominantly indigenous, but, not exclusively, but re-created by the local indigenous community. Again, if they believe it serves a useful purpose – then fine.
Pippinu -
I think Tigerface is a fine example to Jimbo of why some of us AFL advocates end up working tirelessly at setting people straight. It’s amazing what rot some people seemingly WANT to believe. And I get accused of not having an open mind!!!! Heck, I believe in flip sides………….and as Millster indicated, he finds he agrees with about 30% of what I say. That’s probably about it – the other 70% will be perspective based flipsides……….niether wrong nor right.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Let me elaborate
If there was a competition where you have an anglo saxon team vs european descendent team vs asian descendent team vs african descendent team vs aborigenes team. We wouldn’t accept it and quite rightly consider that racist cause in the end all of them are equally Australians.
Nevertheless aborigenes are the orignal inhabitants and have a history of being subjugated. Perhaps there history is separate from the rest of Australian and having an aborigenes team recognise the reality of that. So that allow them to be the exception to the rule?
I don’t know.
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Das
That the AFL does more for the indigenous people than any other sport is pure bull TBH. RL has an entire team in the NRL as an indigenous teama nd for years have had an annual indigenous games ……….football had Australia’s first national player, further football had a Australian team captian who was indigenous, a national and current coach who is indigenous. and as a precentage of players in RL indigenous has the highest of players.
This should never be used as a measuring stick and it as I see it wrong for the AFL to put out this kinda of hype when they are no better and no worst than a number of other codes……..
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
ok MC
I accept that
My previous comments were written before your comment was posted up
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Midfielder
I don’t know much about RL so I’m not going to comment on that
From football prospective we are not bad at dealing with indigenous community and like you said we do have our achievements. Harry Williams, Jade North, David Williams etc (Btw who’s the national and current coah who is indigenous?). Nevertheless from many writers who talk about where to improve our youth development. One thing is always said. We should engage the indigenous community more and then use AFL as an example. It seems to me football although not bad with engaging the indigenous community still has to catch up to AFL. I think the 10% of indigenous players in AFL is much higher then it is in Football. Jade North and Harry williams all admit that majority of aborigenes kids want to play AFL and not football and they are both determine in trying to change that.
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
are you saying that Frank farina is an indigenous Australian?
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
dasilva -
“but then again Aborigenes aren’t just any ethnic groups.”
exactly. For them, it does serve a useful purpose now and then to group some of their highest profile community leaders – i.e. footy stars.
Not really a silly thing to say, because, nowadays, so many of them have come through the Clontarf and similar academies, where these kids get groomed to become future community leaders on and off the field. There’s a very important cultural dynamic involved.
Do a google on the Clontarf academy program………..and you’ll see why Blacktown council is happy to be on board with the AFL and the relatively new Blacktown and Campbelltown Academies.
It was in all likelihood this sort of program that would’ve suffered had the Fed Govt gone ahead with withholding funding to the AFL back over the WADA issue. That wouldn’t have been smart. It’s also, these sorts of programs that seemingly is giving the AFL ‘cultural currency’ in South Africa. (so it’s proving very useful – - not saying other codes don’t have the cultural currency equivalents – - more that for my knowledge of the AFL this is HOW they have acquired theirs).
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Das
Frank Farina ….he never makes a big deal of it……..his mother is Aboriginal and his father Italian ……..Frank has made quite a number of tours to inland Australia and does a lot of work for the indigenous community in outback Qld & NT….. but he sees it as a duty and is very understated about it …….. but as Is said it is an area that we need to respect what everyone is doing and any sport trying to claim bragging rights in this area should be ashamed of themselves …… as I see trying to gain a market advantage and good news media story by helping the indigenous community is the very essence of what should not be done ……..
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
“AFL has set very high standards in terms of combating racial vilification (and is world’s best practice, I would have thought).”
This is at best hopeful. Rugby Union is the leader in this area buy some distance. Ask any race relations group.
I do also agree with the with the comment about cricket. I’d love to know how many talented Australian’s of Indian background have been ignored at grass roots level.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
midfielder -
you’ve just invoked potential tokenism -”football had Australia’s first national player, further football had a Australian team captian who was indigenous, a national and current coach who is indigenous.”
I’m not saying it WAS tokenism – but, hanging one’s hat on it can be tokenism. I hope you understand this.
From the VFL perspective, first indigenous player in 1904, Fitzroys Joe Johnson, ironically from Newcastle NSW .Well – Rugby League didn’t exist yet, so, no wonder Joe Johnson beats George Green by 4 years.
FIrst indigenous player to represent the VFL (vs WA) was Douglas Nichols (also born in NSW) in 1935.
Along the way, club captains, coaches and field umpires. Brownlow medalists and Coleman medalists and Norm Smith medalists, 300 gamers and all-Australian…….there’s no shortage of recognition and achievement along the way, but mostly so for the VFL experience from the 1980s onwards – - because, the Vic indigenous population is not so great. The WAFL by comparison had many more indigenous players. What do you benchmark with – the VFL, the WAFL, the SANFL?
It’s a bit pointless trying to get too much mileage from this sort of discussion.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Midfielder
fair’s fair – the AFL instituted a code to stamp out racial vilification back in the early 90s – and it was pioneering work on even a global level (and you need not venture too far away from Madrid to know that the World Game could learn a lot from aussie rules in this respect).
Would the NRL have more than 11% of their players being indigenous? I ask because I don’t know, I honeslty thought that the AFL had set a very high benchmark in that regard.
I agree that in recent years indigenous players have made a big impact on the Socceroos as well.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Tigerface
I’m honestly surprised that anyone would try to downplay what the AFL has achieved in this area over the last 15 years. I would have thought that 11% of all professionals in a particular comp would represent an exceedingly high proportion (that’s the percentage of indigenous players of all players on AFL lists).
Do the four Australian super 14 clubs compare well agaisnt that? (I don’t know, they might).
What has the South African RU achieved in this area over the last 18 years?
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
http://www.rl1908.com/History/indigenous.htm
the NRL’s Reconciliation Action Plan (Feb. 2008) states that 11% of NRL players are of Indigenous heritage
an AFL media release from 2007 :
“There are 71 indigenous players listed with AFL clubs representing nearly 10 per cent of players.”
for actual raw numbers, it’s roughly equivalent…….i.e. 16 AFL clubs have slightly larger ‘lists’ so, the final tally is probably pretty similar.
I took great pride in the 1980s that after Barry Cable at North Melb that we then had the Krakouer brothers and since then have had a constant number of indigenous players. Hawthorn on the other hand, took some time to ‘break the ice’, but, now their 2008 premiership featured several including Franklin, WIlliams, Rioli and Bateman. All absolute ‘guns’. It took VFL/AFL clubs a while to work out actually how best to ‘nurture’ the kids – - especially as for kids coming from WA, NT, SA etc, it was a long, long way to cold Melbourne. (a major factor on both fronts – distance from home/family and the climate).
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
If you think it’s as simple as the number of players on the pitch you miss the point.
How many Indigenous fans do you see at a game?
Administrators in the game or in anyone calling the shots?
Indigenous coaches?
Indigenous commentator or pundits?
“The game that made Australia ™” does a great job of using Indigenous communities as and when it suits them.
Indigenous players interviewed post game? Very, very few.
And of course when an Indigenous player (Goodes) says the game is native to his community, he’s called a racist.
All you can do is laugh.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Tigerface -
correct – - rattling off numbers isn’t proof of much. So why are you urging for it?
Thus far, most indigenous past players have headed back to their communities to influence things via that aspect rather than the narrower focus of a football only ‘position’. Most I gather prefer to return to coach and develop at the grass roots level (of indigenous communities) rather than limit themselves to elite level AFL club coaching.
Also, we all know that indigenous education standards have lagged for some time………..it’s sad that the CLontarf academies are still needed – - – at any rate, you don’t go around making token indigenous appointments as CEO of any organisation.
btw – indigenous players interviewed post game – - you really don’t watch much footy at all, do you –
Andrew McLeod, Mickey O’Laughlin, Buddy Franklin (every time!!), Chance Bateman, Mathew Stokes, either Burgoyne, etc etc etc.
TIgerface – you seemingly don’t like AFL, presumably don’t watch it much – - so don’t crap on with comments like Indigenous players interviewed post game? Very, very few..
Tigerface said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
….And of course when an Indigenous player (Goodes) says the game is native to his community, he’s called a racist.
All you can do is laugh.
I rest my case.
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Pip & MC
I am not having a go at the AFL nor am I trying to down play in any way what they have achieved ….. but so does RL so to has football and union the Ella brothers …. its not a contest …… its about doing the right thing and that in itself is it’s own reward enough said ………. no sport should claim themselves special in this area or somehow think they hold a higher moral ground than anyother code ……… and any sports that tries to market how great they are in this area has missed the point IMO.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Tigerface -
it was an academic who labelled the comment as racist by inferring that aboriginals were somehow naturally better at the game………
this is a silly thing on 2 fronts.
One is that aboriginals DO actually find the old ‘black magic’ a bit of an affront as they don’t want people to disregard the hard work, dedication, determination, sacrifice etc of the kids who ‘make it’ as being just written off as ‘naturally gifted’ etc.
however, if a ‘people’ are more genetically suited to a given pursuit (sport), then, perhaps that can’t be denied either……..however, in this case, I’m not so sure that it is a given or a proven. And for some folk, it’s not some much the genetics as it might be an altitude environment or the like.
At any rate – - it’s not quite a ‘black and white’ issue – - – and your using it here for mileage is completely ignorant and rather disrespectful.
Midfielder -
there’s a difference between marketing slogans and grass roots action. THe AFL it seems is doing pretty well on the grass roots plain, so I accept it.
I don’t know enough about the other codes. I won’t try to claim one upsmanship on this issue – - as indicated, it’s pointless…….i.e. does VFL win because we had our first indigenous player 4 years before RL…………..given RL didn’t exist. It’s a void argument.
What I will do though is urge anyone unfamiliar with Sir Douglas Nichols to check out his life story…….might be worth an article.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:37pm | Report comment
Midfielder
What you say is fair enough, but the point has to be made that the code of practice the AFL introduced in the early 90s to stamp out racial vilification on the field (i.e. sledging on the basis of race) was truly ground breaking, and we have to be honest, there remains a massive problem in this area in Spain, Italy and other major football countries to this day (and FIFA appears to be doing little about it).
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
From the discussion here
It seems to me that most of the codes have done a pretty good job in attracting the indigenous community (except for cricket)
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Pippinu
To be fair though. In England there used to be a massive problem with racism (and hoolaganism) and so far they done a great job of stamping racism out of the game where nowadays it’s not very likely you’ll hear racial chanting in any EPL or national team matches.
Also in SPain and Italy the problems is not so much players racially abusing other players or coaches abusing other players (exception of that ex-spanish coach). FIFA code of conduct is ok at penalising people who racially abuse other professionals. However the problem is how to deal with large sections of the crowd starting racist chants.
Did AFL ever had that problem like they have in SPain and Italy. If they did how did they dealt with that?
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
dasilva
that’s a good point you make in relation to the EPL and the problem in Spain and Italy.
In the days of the VFL and early years of the AFL, they certainly did have the off-field problem – everyone would have seen the famous photo of Nicky Winmar lifting his guernsey in front of the Collingwood cheer squad and pointing to his skin (in a game where St Kilda came from behind do knock them off and he copped much racial abuse from the opposition fans).
All this happened around the time that onfield racial sledging was getting some negative press.
So to answer your question, both sides of the problem came to a head at around the same time. The AFL introduced a code of practice for the onfield stuff; this got huge media attention, there was much public debate – and through all these efforts, the off field stuff was pretty much eliminated.
The other factor is that each club now has on its books 3 to 6 indigenous players, so this fact, coupled with the public debate and the pro active leadership by the AFL, it became unacceptable behaviour on and off the field.
Millster said | November 11th 2008 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
I am sad that Tiger’s original vaid posts have been diluted by this tangent about aboriginal people.
I think his original points though do warrant some serious consideration. To me it is fundamental to my assessment of the quality and competitiveness of any sport to ask:
- whether it can be referenced to any credible external standard (eg. how the sport is played in other parts of the world);
- whether the code is open or closed (e.g. does it have a heirarchy of leagues from state to country to continent to world and/or whether it has promotion and relegation)
- how broad the pool of participants (players, coaches, administrators, sponsors/financiers) is by world standards; and
- whether or not the code needs to be re-levelled each season to artificially maintain a veneer of ‘competition’
Irrespective of whatever other directions this thread has meandered it, these aspects are so central to my ability to have real passion for football on the one hand, and on the other to be at-best lukewarm about the insular codes due to the realisation that a lot of the way they are structured leads to a superficial and fake level of competition.
So again to that core message I say hurray as, however much I might enjoy a one-off AFL or NRL match for what its worth, when I stop to think about it these issues really worry me in terms of the broader credibility of those sports.
Please note this is not an attack on individuals participating as I know that you have to make do with what you’ve got in a particular code and all – well most – participants will be giving their 100% which whatever else anyone thinks deserves some level of respect
Millster said | November 11th 2008 @ 5:07pm | Report comment
dasilva – having been in the stands of subi at many west coast eagles matches through the 1990s I can sadly report that yes there was much hurling of racist abuse from the fans there on a regular basis. While on other bases AFL fans are comparatively well behaved, and while I admit that my experiences with AFL were – in all but 3 matches – based in Perth which may be a special case, yes I do associate AFL with racist abuse by fans.
On the broader issue I am never in favour of singling out a minority. Whether with good or bad intentions, the minute you identify a group by their race and give them special treatment (including membership of an ‘all-star’ team based on that race) you are being racist. There is positive racism and sexism (euphemistically called affirmative action – a term I despise) and negative racism and sexism. But it is all racist and sexist to me as it misses the point that race / gender should never be an issue.
The1and only master said | November 11th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
TIGERFACE,
I just read you initial piece and wow.
Barack Obama called and he said he wants you on his writting staff. What a speech !
I’ve never heard such an expression of self hate.
Before getting into the vast over exaggerations, such as “A sport that teaches you art, strategy, history and politics” the simple question i really need to know is why dont you just leave Australia if you hate it so much, if you find the people backward and racist. You have a very clear and easy option in life.
Now this one here is a classic reffering to the AFL
“worse, it feels like the worst parts of the Australian character coming together: a ruthless pursuit of material gain; a dumbing down of values and principles; a worship of ordinariness; and a triumph for patronising managerialism.”
This sounds more like a description of the EPL. “A triumph for patronising managerialism.” The premier league, should consist of 4 teams, untill you can find an Arab Shiek, or Russian Olygarach, or Chinesse Business man to pour his cash into a team and buy players from around the world and start ateam from scratch to compete. And it’s the AFL who has A RUTHLESS PURSUIT OF MATERIAL GAIN.
Soccer throughout the world is based soley on who has the most money. Simple. Are these the values and principles you criticise the AFL for but neglect to mention in the money hungry debt ridden EPL
“Imagine a sport where home grounds are sacred, not shared. Your home is your fortress, your history, your life. ”
Didn’t the EPL just want to add a game to their season and lay them in different parts of the world.
I think you have your wires crossed Tigerface. You talk a good game but your content is flawed.
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
Pip
The point you make about how the AFL started this bit may be true but other codes started other things …. were do you start and were do you stop ……… as I said the moment you start talking about it …… is the time you have lost it.
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 7:12pm | Report comment
Pipp,
if you read my post properly 19klms (avr stat shown on CH 10 “ground covered” for a team on the park) is one quarter multiply that by 4 = 76 klms divide that by 18 players not counting the interchange bench = 4.2 klms over 80 min discarding add on time … Dave posted up some research he obtained that one footballer covers nearly 12 klms over 90 mins and the “ground covered” per half by the team was around 57 klms over 45 min (SBS UCL). a total of 114 klms avr over 90 mins not including add on time.. and no half time in the sheds..
AFL does not go on for 2hrs for a player .. for the spectator’s experience maybe 2hrs.. with breaks in between first quarters and half time and then again after the third quarter players sitting on their bums listening to a coach having a rant is not exactly running around on the field… Somehow that information you put up seems flawed to me… Obviously written by an AFL undergraduate…
The surface area has nothing to do with how much or how far a player covers the ground its the player wanting to run the distance in a given area just as I would not expect (Plugger the ex Swans player) to run too far out of his forward pocket..
PS. … TIGERFACE, I love your work .. spot on Digger..
~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | November 11th 2008 @ 7:25pm | Report comment
Millster
For the most case I agree but there are some cases where I think it is a grey area.
There’s always the balance between we are one – but we’re not the same.
You are right that we are all humans and should be treated equals
But then every individual, every society and every cultures are different and should be treated differently.
There are aboriginal community is sadly living in a third world status (and perhaps below it). You can’t just then treat them as the same as the rest of society. Affirmative actions to these groups is not a bad thing. Also having different laws to these areas such as banning of alcohol may be descrimitory but I believe is acceptable discrimination as it is taking in consideration the unique problems of that community.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
KB
I read it – and you’re way wrong – now go read the link to the Aust Sports Commission – they know a bit more about it than you will ever know. Size of the ground has nothing to do with it????
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Millster
your arguments about the purity of a laissez-faire system in sport remind me of the sorts of arguments you are going ot hear from wealthy American industrialists and merchant bankers, until we notice:
1. it’s nearly always a case of deregulation and taking the profits in the good times, and regulation and passing the losses to the taxpayer in the bad times (as we are currently seeing); and
2. it is the entreprenerial Americans themselves who invented the socialist format of sports administration: salary cap, draft, etc, which the AFL copied to the letter and ultimately turned themselves into the biggest and richest sporting organisation in the land (and let’s be honest, it’s no accident that the NFL is the biggest and wealthiest sporting comp in the world by a very big margin).
These sorts of arguments invariably change with the perspective that one has.
1. Follower of EPL big 4 – laissez-faire is a very good idea, especially if they can monopolise all CL spots for themselves forever;
2. One of the Sheffield teams hanging on to a spot in the 3rd tier by the skin of their teeth – doesn’t look so attractive;
3. Follower of an AFL team that hasn’t won a premiership in 54 years and struggling to stay alive – give me the AFL model any day;
4. Follower of an A-League team that could win the double for the next 10 years if the system was completely freed up – yes please!!
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Tigerface
“A sport that teaches you art, strategy, history and politics.”
How come Christian Ronaldo comes out and says the current transfer system is like the slave trade?
He plays in Manchester, and that is close to Liverpool, when I was in Liverpool last I went to the maritime museum, and they have an outstanding display on the international slave trade.
I would encourage Mr Ronaldo to pay a visit to educate himself on the slave trade, because from that statement it seems he does not know much about history.
Dave said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
TT
It was Mr Blatter who made the slave trade comment likening the current transfer system to it…Ronaldo has said plenty but is innocent here.
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
Australian Football – Home
An Australian Football match lasts about two hours and midfield players can run up to 20km a game. Some of this movement will be low intensity jogging and some will be explosive sprints. Players in most positions will also kick, handball or punch the ball, tackle and be tackled, and change direction quickly. Players require an extremely high level of physical fitness, and an understanding of their nutritional requirements and fluid intake while on the field. They also need to have the tactical skills to play in a range of positions. The Australian Institute of Sport/Australian Football League Academy supports scholarship holders in every aspect of their game development.
Obviously they don’t Pip; they speak of a game running for 2hrs.. when its only 20 min per quarters official time please don’t suggest the balance is 40 mins add on time … This author doesn’t understand nor you I guess, sitting on the ground between quarters and in the sheds at half time is not running on the park.. I could say that a Football match with added on time and time in the sheds at half time will take a Football match up to 2 hours as well; it simply is not the case.. Next year watch the “ground covered stat” as I have alluded to you that is what only counts, it is only the time running on the pitch over the quarters.. not star gazing into the coaches eyes during the breaks listening to him ranting on …
~~~~~~~
KB
Dave said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
TT
On further review it seems both Blatter and Ronaldo made comparisons to the slave trade…apologies
Dave said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
The latest studies indicate AFL players now run less in a game than previously due to the high number of interchange. Onballers ave 12-14klm but whilst on work at slightly higher intensities than previously. Less distances for fixed position players such as full forward.
Footballers on ave (Brazilian League study) 9-11klm per game but no interchange. Brazilian players would tend to run less than European counterparts in general mainly due to style of play and weather factors. Also the distance covered varies slightly depending upon position.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
No worries Dave, maybe Ronaldo should invite Mr Blatter when he goes to the maritime musuem.
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
TT,
wasn’t Sony Bill Williams who broke his slave bonds and escaped to freedom and wealth with the blood hounds right on his tail … Great to see he made it over to freedom..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
KB
Here’s another link:
http://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/231422/Burke_2008-18_Sports_Nutrition_and_Australian_Football.pdf
Note it’s Ausport. It’s an article by someone from the Northern Hemisphere. She notes the typical distance run in the game as being 12 to 16 kilometres, with thost at the high end reaching 20km per game.
Now why is it that I pull out facts and figures from credible sourcs, while we have to rely on your memory of what you thought you saw on tele one day? And then you back that up by saying that the size of the ground has nothing to do with it.
Curious.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Koala,
maybe Sonny Bill can make it a threesome, although I dont recall him making any statement about the slave trade…nevertheless, he would definitely benefit from the trip.
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Dave,
I would also add the Brazilians cover a lot of unrecorded ground due to goal celebrations taking off their shirts running around the arena ala Aloisi.. (penalty)..
~~~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:45pm | Report comment
Dave
that sounds reasonable enough, and is consistent with what I’m putting up. Even with interchange, players are still on the field for 80 to 90 minutes, but with additional rests, as you point out.
And they need them, those 12 to 16 km are being run at a faster average speed than any other football code.
There’s nothing controversial being said here, nor does this mean anything of itself (people may still argue that they find it an ugly game, which is their perogative).
But I just want to say that at least on two measures, on a scientific basis, the athletic exertion required to play aussie rules is at a world class standard.
Why some want to go out of their way to disprove that, I don’t know.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
KB
goal celebration – well – that’s an extra 50 to 100 metres!
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
Pip,
Its not what I thought I saw; Its what I did see, as you know only too well; or is it you don’t watch what is in front of you.. ??… But then we have told you that Government spends millions on AFL, which you have denied for months on end; I can’t help it if you do not want to face the truth…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
KB & Pip
My 2 cents it makes little sense comparing AFL & Football games on athletic ability …… just as a general observation the AFL player is moving constantly but rarely at full pace ……. Whereas the football player will go from a slow trot to flatout and often run at full pace.
But the chief difference between the games is spaceial / time/ angles. To explain AFL is played on a wide canvass with plenty of space to play in, have a shot when a mark is taken with a wide goal to aim at hand control the pass to the feet with no one closing either the space a player has to work in or the time on the ball. Football on the other hand gives little sight of the goal, little time on the ball without being closed down and most angles are also closed by off the ball play.
Effectively meaning one game is essentially an attacking game, where attaching is rewarded thus a high scoring game, Football is also attacking but has refined defence to the point where defensive players are as important as attacking players so essentially two totally different games that are almost impossible to compare skill sets ………. However I can say I think with full agreement that a football player can play AFL and learn the skills of AFL before an AFL player could develop similar skill levels in football.
Proving nothing accept the games are different …..
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA4gmMvye5M
Well that’s a bit of outdated information 30min qrts; since when. ? See above and on a TV Saturday afternoon match 20 min qtrs Mister…
The midfield players who wear GPS units during the match typically log 12–16 km of running during a game of four ~30-min quarters,
I can help with the documentation revisions Pipp…. If you like…
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:14pm | Report comment
KB -
Obviously they don’t Pip; they speak of a game running for 2hrs.. when its only 20 min per quarters official time please don’t suggest the balance is 40 mins add on time
Correct, a game tends to run for 2 hours PLUS the time for the qtr time break, half time break and 3/4 time break – which is why a game starting around 2.10pm will finish around 4.40pm. i.e. 2 hours of game time plus about 30 mins in scheduled breaks.
Each quarter is a maximum 20 minutes of ‘accounted’ ‘time on’. Each quarter on average runs about 30 mins via the ‘time off’ micro time accounting. How does one manage 10 mins extra every 20 mins with what in the main looks like continuous action? Well…..unlike soccer, the clock stops after the ball goes out or through the goals/behinds, such that time does not resume until play does either via the bounce restart or via the ‘full back’ bringing the ball back into play. Oh, gee, KB………surely everyone just stands around hands on hips during that ‘time off’………………if you honestly believe that then give up now!!!!
… This author doesn’t understand nor you I guess, sitting on the ground between quarters and in the sheds at half time is not running on the park
what are you on about KB? Of course the time sitting on the ground between quarters is NOT counted in any way. The clock stops at quarter time for each quarter……..because,……the 20 mins of time on is up. And, invariably ‘real time elapsed’ will have been anywhere between 27 mins and 34 mins in general depending on such factors as injury (obviously), number of goals, number of general stoppages…..all those 5 seconds and 30 seconds add up.
I’m beginning to worry KB that you don’t actually understand – - – are you thinking the inter-quarter breaks are included in the 2 hours of ‘play time’???
.. I could say that a Football match with added on time and time in the sheds at half time will take a Football match up to 2 hours as well; it simply is not the case..
Oh my god………KB…………..that IS what you believe………….oh crikey…………no wonder you’ve harped on and on about it. KB, believe me, as per the official FIFA WC stats for 2006, the average ‘play’ time within the 90 mins (plus injury time) for soccer matches in the pool games was around 52 mins. The worst was 47 mins and the best around 69 mins I think it is.
This notion of ‘play time’ and ’stopping the clock’ obviously is something that you as a ‘dedicated follower of soccer’ (yep, I am thinking Kinks here) – - so, you really DON’T UNDERSTAND IT, ……..do you??
Next year watch the “ground covered stat” as I have alluded to you that is what only counts, it is only the time running on the pitch over the quarters.. not star gazing into the coaches eyes during the breaks listening to him ranting on …
I think I’ve established that you have no idea what you’re on about, so, I’ll leave this one alone. KB…………I really gotta get up to the GCst next year and take you to a game and explain it to you.
Koala Bear said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
MC,
haa yes the clock still runs when a mark is rewarded in the 50 or in the midfield it seems you don’t understand your own game MC; they can take up to 15 seconds a time (no added on time for that) before a player decides to kick it.. It seem you just don’t understand MC what goes on in your own house … Cricky man, watch a game instead of just ranting on about it …
~~~~~~~~~
KB
westy said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:28pm | Report comment
My brain hurts. I love watching Buddy Franklin / Judd /Kewel/ Chipperfield/ Inglis/Slater/ Cooper/ Giteau. That is all I have to say. It often depends how a game is played………….it is possible to slow an AFL or a football game down legally illegally and tactically.. Intentional .Possession at the back can slow either game down …includind aerobic output.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
westy
would love to have seen Buddy Franklin running around in a Wallaby jersey…oh well, his sister is dating Matt Giteau, hopefully if they have any kids, if they have a fraction of Buddy’s talent, I hope the Force picks em up.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
But the chief difference between the games is spaceial / time/ angles. To explain AFL is played on a wide canvass with plenty of space to play in, have a shot when a mark is taken with a wide goal to aim at hand control the pass to the feet with no one closing either the space a player has to work in or the time on the ball. Football on the other hand gives little sight of the goal, little time on the ball without being closed down and most angles are also closed by off the ball play.
I’ll shed a little secret here for you -
AFL in the main is about 2nd, 3rd, 4th efforts.
Most the hard running is NOT seen on TV, as the running is done ‘off screen’ to actually ‘create space’.
The space you talk about is two fold. there’s dangerous space and there’s less dangerous space. Less dangerous space is around the boundary line – - or going backwards as per soccer chipping around the backline to wind down the clock a bit and try to open up a loose man.
Dangerous space is fiercely guarded and fought for. i.e. the corridor. Here ’space’ most certainly is NOT easy to find.
Because of the variety of strategies, as per basketball at it’s simplest with full court press vs zonal, in AFL you have some games where 95% of the players are accountable i.e. man on man all over the ground. In those matches – there’s never easy space to be found without a heap of hard work. In a more zonal game…….there’ll be more space to be found in the ‘less dangerous’ areas.
Often, a game will pass through several ‘phases’ of such alternating match style (tempo) – - the team that manages this the best and can set the agenda strategically will most likely be able to slow the game down whilst the ‘A’ midfielders are having a break and the ‘B’ midfielders are perhaps playing a more ’shut down’ style.
That wide canvas you speak of – - – you do realise that it tapers in at both ends don’t you?? It actually reduces available space inside the 50m arc. Check the stats for marks inside 50. These are pure gold……more so inside 40 on a less than 45 degree angle.
plenty of space to play in, have a shot when a mark is taken with a wide goal to aim at hand control the pass to the feet with no one closing either the space a player has to work in or the time on the ball.
So, only so many shots are taken from a nice safe ‘mark’ situation (or free kick). The goal mouth itself is actually more narrow than a soccer goal mouth. don’t go counting the behinds because, in general, good teams hurt you on the rebound from defense via the kick out after a behind. There’s more options for the defender bringing the ball in after a behind than a kick out on the full beside a point post which is easier to ‘defend’.
btw – the hand drop of the ball to foot is actually a huge variable. especially in windy conditions or with a wet ball. I don’t underestimate the skills required to volley a moving spherical ball. But, be careful about trying to dumb down the skills too much. On a relative measure, the ratio of goals in soccer kicked from the penalty spot probably equates to the ratio of AFL goals from marks 25 metres out.
In general play, both in soccer and AFL you WILL most times having someone closing at you. The chances are few and far between for an individual in either code to suddenly find themselves heading towards an unguarded goal line.
btw – re angles, soccer, via the deeper corners allows a greater capacity to endeavour to open the angles via the deep cross. i.e. the defenders are either drawn further from the goal mouth to defend or they stand off.
Don’t forget, the thing about soccer (and Gaelic for that matter), is that you don’t actually have to kick the goal….you just need to get the ball in the net, including off the opposition. Getting defenders uncomfortable, unsure, and getting the ball in there and not in the hands of the goalie – - anything can happen and clear and concise skill of field kick is often the least desirable way to achieve a goal. But damn it looks good when it happens, the rest of the time, deflections, fumbles, ball through the legs of the goalie (I’m remember doing conceding that way in European handball at school).
I think Middie, we need to get you from 40 out directly in front with a blustery cross wind blowing from right to left slightly towards you – - we’ll get you to kick the sherrin and realise how the slightest miss calculation or extra gust on ball drop can make a 20 metre difference on your shot at goal………very much in the same way as a hook or slice in golf when you try to tee off and the ball is high in the air and that hook or slice get’s accentuated by the wind………it’s a tricky enough job from a set shot……let alone on the run on an angle with opposition on your tail, coming at you and covering you team mates.
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Mid
they are both different, that’s fair enough, but how on Earth do you conclude the following:
………. However I can say I think with full agreement that a football player can play AFL and learn the skills of AFL before an AFL player could develop similar skill levels in football?
I’m reminded in 2001 when Frank was training with the Socceroos at the MCG, and for a bit of a lark, he brought out the Sherrins, and as it happens, some journos were there to report back.
Dukes was the best (grew up in Melbourne, would no doubt have played some kick-to-kick a few times in his life).
But have a guess as to who was described as not having a clue?
What I don’t understand is how you assume that someone not raised handling the oval ball with his hands, can all of a sudden walk out onto an oval, and trick up a kick?
I’ve been involved in games where blokes aren’t used to the round ball, and as you would know, it’s mighty ugly. So I would never say that an AFL player could cross over easily.
But I’ve also coached blokes who have never handled a Sherrin – and without exception, they were useless.
Why? Well, apart from giving away endless free kicks, they can’t judge the flight of the footy in the air, they can’t run and bounce it, they can’t handball it and they can’t kick the ball while sprinting (and do this little hop which is quite amusing) – that pretty much covers it.
Some who are used to sinking the slipper into a rubbery Steeden, get a bit of a shock to the system when they try kicking a hard, leather Sherrin. It’s chalk and cheese – why do people have trouble understanding that?
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
KB –
brilliant. You’re like the black knight……..”it’s only a flesh wound”……..you’re still trying.
Correct, the clock doesn’t stop for a mark. Players generally are given about 5 seconds these days to move it on around the ground, and effectively for a shot on goal they have about 20 seconds to line it up and start their approach.
The clock can be stopped if the umpire deems it appropriate and often does so when he needs to ‘attend to the mark’ by lining the player up.
Have you noticed that the soccer clock doesn’t stop for anything………..so………when there’s a corner, or a penalty, or a direct free kick or an indirect freekick……….there’s a lot of standing around……in the case of the DFK there’s a lot of standing around and fondling thy self.
I will run through for you tomorrow perhaps just what the clock does and doesn’t stop for in AFL.
Now – - care to explain again your theory about the 2 hours including the half time break?!?!?!?! KB…………you disappointed me greatly on that one.
It must be late – - – I’ll allow you that escape clause………’cos, it’s mine for now……..’night all. cu2moro.
Michael C said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:53pm | Report comment
Pip -
there’s always those who ask that old gem “How hard could it be”. some of them think they know the answers. Middie……..really, you don’t. I know enough of soccer that I realise it’d take me ages just to be comfortable to dribble the ball safely from foot to foot in a 3/4 pace zig zag run without pressure. I know that I can theorise all I like about how to impart the desired spin on a billiard ball, golf ball or soccer ball…..but getting it right under pressure is another thing entirely….let alone on the move…………but then, I can hit and place a cricket ball bowled at great pace, with precision, through a gap and pace the shot via wrist and soft hands to run the ball into a gap for 2 rather than just a single.
It ain’t genetic……….it’s practice.
again, ‘night all.
Midfielder said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
MC & Pip
MC … thanks for the report all I said the games are so different they cannot be compared I still stand by that each has a different skill set …
Pip
Generally speaking the touch required by a football player at a senior level requires years of practice …… the AFL skill set, and I am in no way trying to say its simple, but can mastered quicker than touch in football. i.e. head / chest/ thigh/ shin/ foot/ heel
Pippinu said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
Mid
I would hope you’re not using your shin too often!!
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Good morning from Singapore today gents
Pip – interesting response to me from the perspective of your 4 club situations. What I would reply to this is that :
1. Follower of EPL big 4 – laissez-faire is a very good idea, especially if they can monopolise all CL spots for themselves forever;
And why cannot an investor come in and revolutionise another team through financial backing and management reforms? It has happened to Man City (though not so-far with stunning on-field results) and Al Fayed owns Fulham and could if he wanted to pur a whole lot money in. Also I foolow Spurs in the EPL and don’t mind the big 4 at all. Its grand when we get a draw or win against them. And the gap is not so big that we are precluded from the 4th or 5th spot, or from participation in Europe via the Cup route.
2. One of the Sheffield teams hanging on to a spot in the 3rd tier by the skin of their teeth – doesn’t look so attractive;
Yes but if the Shield was artificially propped up or protected it would hide the dire, urgent, severe need for re-evaluation of the whole concept and structural reform that is required. Often laissez-faire is the best at exposing things that simply aren’t working.
3. Follower of an AFL team that hasn’t won a premiership in 54 years and struggling to stay alive – give me the AFL model any day;
I follow St Kilda in the AFL, last flag 1966 and not so many GF appearances since then, and I don’t mind. Why? Because I dont value a GF win in the current socialist structure of the AFL. Its a good game but the level of performance of clubs across various years is rendered totally meaningless by the levelling devices that are used. Plus there’s no bigger picture so what does winning a flag mean? Getting driunk for a few days, maybe having a few players in the club get individual accolades, a slightly rowdier end of season trip… and then we start again. No access to continental championships, no heirarchy to a world level of competition, no greater reward at all. So I just watch the games and take them one at a time, enjoying them for what they are.
4. Follower of an A-League team that could win the double for the next 10 years if the system was completely freed up – yes please!!
And why not? If MV combines good membership and fan support, good sponsors, a good ground, good players including good recruiting, and a good coach then let them utilise that success to improve their standard, capitalise on their riches, and lift the bar for the whole league. I’m Sydney so naturally hate MV but I’d prefer to have a league dragged forward by a powerful club like that even if it wins 8 out of 10 years than one that is languishing in mediocrity because we put so many brakes and ball-and-chains around its progress.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:30am | Report comment
KB – as promised – a quick rundown onthe timekeeping ‘accounting’ practices in AFL.
this is covered in section 10 of the Laws of Australian Football. (section titled “Timekeepers, duration of matches, quarters and intervals“)
“a Match shall be played for a period of 80 minutes, divided into 4 quarters, each of 20 minutes duration. The 20-minute duration for each quarter shall be actual playing time and shall not include stoppages in play.” {10.1.1}
from 10.1.2 Intervals between quarters we find :
I
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:42am | Report comment
KB – ah bugger that, my internet flickered and decided I’d submitted!!
Right, back to 10.1.2
Max 6 mins between qtr 1 and qtr 2
Max 20 mins for half time
Max 6 mins between qtr 3 and qtr 4.
So, a max of 32 mins on top of the 80 mins on top of the ‘stoppage time’.
Now, section 10.5 Stopping and recommencing time
I’ll do this verbatim for you :
10.5.1 Stopping Time
The timekeepers shall stop the clock which is used for the timing of a Match when:
(a) directed to do so by a field umpire in accordance with Law 10.5.3;
(b) the goal umpire signals that a goal has been scored;
(c) the goal umpire signals that a behind has been scored; or
(d) the boundary umpire signals that the football is out of bounds or out of bounds on the full; or
(e) the field umpire crosses his or her arms to indicated he/she is going to bounce or throw the ball up.
10.5.2 Recommencing Time
The timekeepers shall recommence the clock used for the timing of a match when:
(a) directed to do so by the field umpire in accordance with Law 10.5.3
(b) the football is bounced or thrown up by the field umpire
(c) the football is brought back into play after a behind has been scored
(d) the football is thrown back into play by the boundary umpire or brought back into play by a player (as the case may be), after it has gone Out of bounds or out of bounds on the full; or
(e) the football is obviously in play.
10.5.3 Signalling
A field umpire shall signal to the Timekeeper to stop the clock or re-start the clock used for the timing of the match by blowing a whistle and raising one arm above his or her head.
————-
so KB, hopefully now you have no excuse.
And remember, for the actual time in a soccer match to get to around the 80 minute mark, as per the FIFA WC 2006 official stats, extra time was required, at the end of which the ‘actual’ play time in matches I reviewed was around the 80 min mark +/- a couple of minutes.
Next time you watch a soccer match, just tally how much time is ‘dead’ time. How much time is posturing by the self importance Ref and how much time is wasted every time the following happens:
ball goes over side line and fellow gets in position for a throw in;
a goal kick;
a resmuption after a goal;
setting up a corner kick;
setting up a free kick;
setting up a penalty kick.
It’s all dead time. Rugby League folk have had an issue themselves with the clock not stopping between the try and the taking of the conversion kick….you can lose minutes at a time……..such that the more scoring that occurs, the less of a game there actually is to play.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Millster
You must be one of the very few non-Melb A-League fans alive that would readily accept MV winning 8 of the next ten championships!
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Pip – I would prefer that to needing to question the entire championship from a feeling that its structures led to artificial outcomes.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Millster
looking at the A-League in particular, with its salary cap.
It seems to me that everyone is playing by the same rules – and it makes it a very tough comp – in any week, the bottom club can defeat the top club – each team has to be extremely focused for every game – I’m wondering why that makes it an artificial comp?
Surely it would be artificial if some clubs were allowed to, say, import more foreigners, or were allowed to pay their players more, etc.
But if everyone is playing by the same rules, it’s up to the manager and the eleven out on the pitch – I don’t understand what the issue is?
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Millster -
you said Its a good game but the level of performance of clubs across various years is rendered totally meaningless by the levelling devices that are used. Plus there’s no bigger picture so what does winning a flag mean? Getting driunk for a few days, maybe having a few players in the club get individual accolades, a slightly rowdier end of season trip… and then we start again.
funny, you don’t place a value on an AFL premiership cup…………..what it provides is bragging rights and validation of history and validation of careers.
Rightly or wrongly.
It provides opportunities to purchase premiership memorabilia to whack up on the wall, it provides the opportunity to wedge the scarf in the rear passenger window for the next month as you drive around and keep the WEG posters on the front window at least until they tend to be moved aside on the quiet one day by the missus to replace with xmas decorations.
It provides 12 months of being the ‘reigning’ premier. Alas, no god given right to ‘defend’ the title.
It provides validation of a season, of a playing list, of a coach. Compare the careers of Bobby Skilton, a triple brownlow medalist who played in only one finals match to the career of Demott Brereton – no brownlows, but I think 5 time day premierships and 5 time night premierships.
For me, the individual, I’m not much into getting drunk at the best times – - but the luckiest I’ve every been is to have the correct memberships to be able to be at the ‘G for both the 96 and 99 premierships.
At the end of it all Millster – - – it doesn’t matter that that (an AFL premiership) is the end of the line so to speak. There’s nothing wrong with a sporting ‘closure’. In your case, you prefer the soccer hierarchy,……….but………….at what point do you ever sit back and just celebrate a job well done. A good years effort, and head off and enjoy xmas and come back for the next year (possibly there’s a winter code difference here aroudn the NH vs SH – - for us, the ‘calender’ year containment of a season makes it perfectly valid that each year is effectively self contained. The inverse occurs for domestic cricket seasons of course of Aust vs England.)
re the levelling devices
I think you really do over state these.
What levelling devices have brought Geelong back to the field after 2007? They moved on some journey man players, Charlie Gardiner who after 1 year at St.Kilda is now delisted and most likely finished. Steven King who rucked well enough for St.Kilda, but for Geelong far the better to further develop Mark Blake and young Trent West in his place with Brad Ottens the number 1 ruckman. It’s actually in Geelongs interest to move on the player ‘chaff’ and bring in and further develop the younger players coming through. That’s not artificial – - that’s list management and succession planning. The salary cap is a player in it all, but, Geelong weren’t forced to decimate their best 15 and off load top notch players (let alone at fire sale prices). While winning a premiership may see some bonusses kick in and some upward pressure on some salaries, the cutting has been in the fringe players……and the reality always is more around the ‘upside’ of players. For a fringe player at age 25 who may only be deemed worth perhaps 8 games as a ‘back up’ who isn’t deemed to hold much ‘upside’ – - the usual course of action is to move him on (if he is surplus) and give those 8 games instead to a 19-20yr old who is deemed to have greater potential ‘upside’. That this can also provide salary cap TPP relief means it’s all part of list management from an economic and football department perspective. Hardly artificial.
The problem in the AFL at present is ACTUALLY THE LACK of player trade. The draft is but a regulated player market – - via the trade period clubs have the opportunity to bring player market forces to bare on the draft. West Coast did that when Chris Judd wanted to head home, WCE managed to get a very good young key forward plus a high draft pick that other wise they would never have got.
West Coast I guess is an example………..did the cyclical nature of things bring them down via the framework of Millsters levelling devices? Well, not at all. They lost Chris Judd who wanted to head home to Victoria. They lost Ben Cousins for reasons completely unrelated to football and the supposed levelling devices. Beyond that, WCE have underperformed with often 16 or so ‘premiership’ players on the paddock.
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Pip – but is it right that everyone should play by the same rules? Is it right that a club with good community links and membership, or a good financial backer, or with savvy in the player transfer market, should be held back to a ‘parity’ level with other clubs that – whether through circumstances or lack of effort/endeavour or both – don’t capitalise in the same way? Why shouldn’t a club with a bigger bank account be able to buy better players with it and/or pay them more?
Do we want a competition that is superficially fair? Or do we want a race for each party to get the best, the most, out of what their club can do and to really extend the boundary?
Maybe an analogy is motor racing. At the moment we see races between machines that are so limited in their specifications and guidelines that the manufacturers have to – at best – squeeze the most out of a totally constrained set of parameters. Imagine what innovation, what speed, what engineering excellence could be achieved if we told them basically no rules, just bring the best of your engineering smarts and as long as there is somewhere along the line a wheel or two in contact with the road and a driver in the machine then go for it. We would see some amazing things… even if, admittedly, the winning of races would probably be constrained to a small group that was well ahead of the pack in money and technology.
My basic point is that short-term ‘fairness’ and levelling is almost invariably at the expense of overall development towards excellence. And as such, I don’t think we should take it as a given that short-term fairness is what we always want in our sporting endeavours.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Millster – on the hand, yes, I’d like MV to rise above the morass and control proceedings for the next decade or so.
On the other hand, all sporting comps have rules and regulations – you are picking on a specific group of these – but I’m not sure that this group necessarily deserves more attention than, say, another group of rules and regulations that define all comps.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Millster -
motor racing is usually conducted in classifications………i.e. classes……………as it turned out, the 2 litre class got squeezed out of the Bathurst land mark race. And so now, it’s a V8 only class. There’s now motorbikes in there. There’s now open wheelers in there. Motor racing is all about classes of car and certain guidelines within that. So that the premise is that “everyone should play by the rules.”
The F1 is often attempted to be turned into a pure branding and marketing exercise rather than a valid motor racing class. Do you want it to be sports or advertising? That’s the basic question. Personally, I’d prefer that all teams had the same budget and may the best team win. i.e. the most efficient, imaginative, determined, etc. Not just the richest.
The boundaries get tested all the time on and off the field. That will happen. The trick is to manage it sustainably. The temptation in this world is to ‘DO’ things just because we ‘CAN’. Sometimes we need the odd barrier to allow caution, common sense, long term sustainability etc to prevail.
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Pipp – ALF would still be AFL as a game if player trading was de-regulated and salary caps were removed. I’m not talking about the basic rules of play. I am focused on those regulations that serve to limit or control the distribution of players, the ability of clubs to pay unimpeded premiums for the talent they want, and that are overtly aimed at ‘relevelling’ through any form of preferential treatement at the bottom end of the ladder, and any form of restriction to the top end (or, likewise but in an off-field way, that limit the ability of a financially successful club to make its own free economic decisions in any aspect of its operations).
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:44am | Report comment
I should say in fairness that I am reading carefully MC’s explanation that salary cap and draft mechanisms have only had marginal effects on the squads of Geelong, the current ‘team to beat’ in the AFL.
On the one hand I am glad, for at least the other teams have a coherent benchmark to reach which is not regularly eroded or fractured.
On the other I cannot but remain cynical. Were there no salary cap, would other clubs have entered into a bidding war for some or all of those players which would either have changed their distribution, or forced Geelong to pay a proper market value for them given their premiership player status in order to retain the integrity of the squad? Surely the salary cap substantially diminishes the competitive pressures on player values and wages.
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment
MC – I guess we have got to the heart of it. To you, the “best team” is a team that does the best given a set of limitations, given some abstract notion of a level starting point or playing field. To me the “best” is the “best” irrespective. Why is not valid for one of the criteria of the “best” to be that a team has the biggest budget?
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Pippinu and Millster -
re the rules – - why should on field be any different to off field.
Why do we have weight divisions in wrestling and boxing etc? (simply because we aren’t interested in purely the biggest and strongest – - we are interested in the ‘technicians’)
Why do soccer players have to adhere to the off-side rule and NOT use their hands………..what silly rules……..let’s return to mob football where you simply get the ball from point A to point B by whatever means possible rather than all these artificial constraints………..it’s a bit like finding out who the fastest walker is when a runner would’ve beaten them all……….what’s the point of it all? Why bother? Let’s just give up. You can’t be selective and say that on field you must obey the rules religiously but off the field, there are no rules.
or………somewhere down the line the entire game, and it’s ‘league’ are within a framework of rules and regulations. It’s that framework that dictates who plays who and when. What Millster effectively advocates is a step back 120 years when it was a free for all…….because, the reality is that the EPL is an artificial constraint on the top 4 clubs………why should the FIFA requirement that you don’t have multi national ’super leagues’ get relaxed? Presently, there’s pseudo super leagues that give the impression of fairness but we know that they are in the main the domain of the top couple of financed clubs in each league. It’s a farce………….the ‘Claytons Super League’. It’s all so artificial. Let’s just let Man Utd NOT be constrained by the English FA or by FIFA. Let Man Utd play whom they want where and when they want. It’s ridiculous to force Man Utd to play a bottom of the ladder team at a venue with sub 20K capacity.
You do realise that that was what all football was like back around the 1870s……..no fixtures……..matches arranged as apprpriate…….no real management of the codes……..i.e. irregularly convened matches in all codes with only 10-20 rules meant that there would always be agreement on the day. It was enough that rules had to be brought in to dictate a maximum number of clubs an individual could represent in a given ’season’………..oh the injustice of such regulation and restraint of trade!!!!!
Laissez-faire football on and off the paddock.
but, at the end of the day………it’s NOT meant to be the real world………it’s meant to be club level sports.
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
MC,
As usual your response is bollocks!!! Have you ever seen a game of Football that finished exactly on 90 mins..? It always runs overtime with some 1-2 min after the first half and up to in some instances 5 min after the second half … the ball these days hardly goes out and play resumes in less that 7 seconds apart from some free kicks outside the box and penalties are a rare occurrence..
a resumption after a goal;
setting up a corner kick;
setting up a free kick;
setting up a penalty kick.
In Grooky I have seen Marks taken just in the 50 or on it with the clock still running.. the player Fevola taking some 30 seconds dropping the ball to the ground after walks back some 25 metres then adjusting his socks pick up the ball go-into-a-trance-like-state then to take the kick… up to 30 sec. and the clock still running…. multiply that x amount of times (8 for both teams) 8 minutes or so… maybe a lot more… ! I repeat a quarter is only 20 min official time and it you watch it on TV it stops right on the 20 min mark with the last quarter going into overtime with an additional 5 mins for upms incompetence’s… For not retrieving the ball quick enough… and players standing around with their hands on their hips ..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
MC – surely you have your tongue in your cheek. I am not talking about the abolition of all structures and frameworks. I am not talking about the disolving of all geographic boundaries. I am not talking about an 120 year reversal in the order of the world. I am just talking about making sure that clubs are free to compete within the current basic frameworks as they see fit. And that those basic frameworks are biased towards the overall reaching of excellence, and rewarding of performance, investment and innovation. You are taking my point much too far. I don’t want a revolution in the framework of football. I just want freedom for each entity participating, whether individuals, clubs or ivestors, to be able to make their own free and unfetterred decisions to compete within that framework in the best way they can.
Most importantly I simply want a level of distancing and rejection from policies which are so obviously, blatantly aimed at the manipulation of the level of competition and at bringing the best back down to the level of the worst. That is ultimately what gives me the grief I have over this issue.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Millster -
ah, but all clubs DO have the capacity to offer the ‘world’ to any of the Geelong players……..it is for Geelong to re-contract the players. Un-contracted players are fair game. If all the Geelong players have chosen to roll over their contracts and extend irrespective that they might or would be able to get more money elsewhere – - – then that says something pretty damn cool about their sense of ‘club’ above purely personal financial gain.
COntracted players CAN be traded but only via the official trade period where players and draft picks can be bartered.
The main issue presently is the capacity for a player to effectively put a ‘price on his head’ or to otherwise dictate – - such that someone like Josh Carr who want’s to return to Port Adelaide from Fremantle. He is presently de-listed I think, and so, uncontracted, a trade was not able to be made (which would’ve seen Freo at least get something for him), Carr is then freely available via the pre-season draft – - – but, he is able to state “I won’t play footy anywhere other than Adelaide, so don’t think about drafting me if you’re not from there”.
Is that compromising the draft – - and that’s where the ‘limited free agency’ push eminates from………..the capacity of a player to actually get to somewhere they want to get to. There have been a couple of bungled moves, such as Jade Rawlings who wanted to leave Hawthorn and join his brother at North, in the end, the deal couldn’t be done and he ended up at Pip’s mob down at the kennel (Whitten Oval – Bulldogs).
There’s not really perfect systems………..but………there are functional systems.
I note that the HAL has a NRL style system that allows players to sign with a new club for the following year and remain where they are playing out the current contract. Who was it the other day, one of the HAL coaches was critical of it. It seems to work i the NRL, I don’t really like it – - it’s certainly not perfect…………but………is it suitably functional…………in this domain it’s simply gotta be good enough because ‘perfect’ doesn’t exist.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:09am | Report comment
KB
I have seen a half of play end at exactly 45 minutes, usually the first half.
And who can ever forget that Italian ref who called time on exactly 90 minutes with Australia needing to defeat Israel in a WC qualifier in 1989, and with the Israelis having gone to ground (and stayed there) the whole game.
The expression on Arok’s face was priceless, mouth agape, holding up his little stop watch.
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Gotta turn this off as I’m overseas and about to go into meetings but see you guys tomorrow arvo when I’, back.
Towser said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Pippinu
The issue is quite simple the A-league is breeding mediocrity.
Like Millster I’m a firm believer in the survival of the fittest.
I’m also a believer in “If you can do better then go ahead”.
Thats why I migrated to do better. I’m sure that Frank Lowy agrees with me.
If either of us had been “Salary capped” & hampered in our quest “To do better get ahead” by an artificial restriction,well for me it would only affect my personal quality of life compared with the one I left,but in Frank Lowys case it would have affected thousands of businneses & the convenience for consumers to shop for many varied items under one roof.
For Football,well lets not go there.
I dont say “Mediocrity” lightly. I have waited a long time to see the game where its at today.
But where is it at in relation to the only criteria that counts “playing standard”.
Can anyone honestly say the standard in season 4 is better than season 1.
I’ve told the story of the Frenchman & his “Pub Football” comment at the Roar match the other week.
Last week Sydney played “Pub Football” & nobody can tell me that was better than the worst game in season one.
Why is there “Pub Football” still being played in season 4?
Why because no club even those in Australias biggest markets can stand out from the pack.
If they believe in “If you can do better then go ahead”,they are told no you cant “Pub football is the standard of the day” we’ll keep you at that level by a salary cap.
Even the “Marquee concept” is being dragged back by mediocrity. So you get Joel Griffiths, Jade North & yes even John Aloisi as marquee players.
I remember Simon Hill saying very early on in the A-Leagues beginnings each club needs 2 “Marquee players’.
By that he meant instantly recognisable “Bums on seats EPL Serie A standard” so that the Frenchmen & the thousands of others like him couldnt use the “Pub Football” line when attending an A-league match & indeed would rather than say as he did to me “I wont be back” quote the Real Arnie & say” I will be back”.
Can any football fan honestly look at themselves in the mirror & say the A-League playing standard is much better than Season 1?
Can any Football fan say that an A-League club given no salary cap can do better?
I guess it depends what fans want.
An expanding comp where mediocrity rules (& will do for a long time while expanding-everybody brought back to the pack)
or a comp where each club can acheive according to their ambitions & if you dont cut the mustard bye bye.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Millster -
I am just talking about making sure that clubs are free to compete within the current basic frameworks as they see fit.
depends how basic you want the frameworks to be.
in the AFL context, as much money as any wealthy benefactor wants to throw the clubs way can be done so ‘off field’. The limitation there is attempted to be that you don’t go and employ player X’s wife as a $200K a year secretary. (and that’s been done). There’s a lot of ‘fringe benefit’ that an AFL player for example can enjoy at certain clubs compared to others off the field.
Presently, clubs with the resources are seriously looking into the international rookie system that effectively operates outside of the regular draft – - not every club can afford to run talent identification camps in Fiji for example – - and realistically the Bulldogs can’t afford it and that was bankrolled by a wealthy supporter based in Fiji.
In the short term, in the AFL, there’ll perhaps be an increase in this sort of activity. And those clubs sticking their hand up and getting involved in South Africa (WCE, Freo, Coll and Carl) – - there’s no coincidence that they are independantly wealthy clubs with huge memberships, sponsorship and financial supporters. (not owners though).
The1and only master said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
KB
What you fail to take into consideration is the amount of muscle AFL players carry into the game. It is alot easier to carry a light frame around than one of muscle.
Why do they carry more muscle. Well the rigours of the games demand it.
BTW, back on topic what were the crowd figures for the Roar V Victory ??
Towser said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
The1andonlymaster
Crowd figures Roar v MV just go to the A-League site.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
KB -
soccer time keeping is in the hands of a single referee attempting to adjudicate the game…………that is so…so….antiquated.
Please, direct me to the Laws of Association Football section on regulations for added time.
WE all know it’s rubbery and seemingly arbitrary. We all know that wasting time in all games is an art form………….and certainly the game of soccer is not deficient in such activity.
Time wasting occurs in AFL……..but………the fact that a regular 20 min qtr can provide about an extra 10 mins just via those gazetted ’stoppages’…………and yes………I’d love to see the clock stop when a player takes a mark only to resume as the ball is kicked or the umpire calls play on. To me, that does seem an over sight………..and that alone might require that game to be 4 * 15 min quarters with time on and equating to about 30 minute quarters!!!!
Reality is, grid Iron is that isn’t it? And their game goes on and on…….but so do their stoppages and lack of continuous play and swapping offensive and defenisve teams etc etc……….hopefully we don’t get to that point………but…….in fairness……….they account for every single second…………and yard!!!
Soccer is diametrically opposed to Grid Iron and Aust Footy is somewhere in the middle striking a dynamic equilibrium.
btw -
As usual your response is bollocks!!!
you’re mad, absolutely mad. Firstly I’ve quoted directly from the AFL rule book – - – evidently you still don’t recognise any AFL or Australian football documentation……..you still don’t recognise the 1859 hand written rules of the game.
secondly………what was bollocks about the mentioned stoppages in soccer. If you get 20 corners at 5-10 seconds each, 20 goal kicks at 5-10 seconds each, 30 side line throws at 5 seconds each, a couple of minutes after 1 or 2 goals, around the 4 or 5 free kicks, and a couple of minutes from real ‘injury time’……..you’re rapidly requiring a minimum of an additional 10 minutes. In the main ‘injury time’ provides about 1 minute after the first half and about 3 mins for the 2nd half………obviously more ‘time wasting’ occurs in the 2nd half.
I’ve got my workbook here again of the FIFA WC 2006 – - the first 48 pool games, it was actually 55.083 minutes of ‘actual playing time’,
the worst example Ukraine 1 Tunisia 0 in match 48.
Ukraine 47% possession and 22 mns actual playing time
Tunisia 53% possession and 25 mins actual playing time.
4 mins of injury time just doesn’t quite cut it when there’s only 47 mins actual playing time out of 90 mins (+ inj time!!!). And that game only had 6 corners, 1 penalty, there were 18 shots and 3 free kicks. There were 7 off side calls, 8 yellow cards and 1 red card.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Towser
I would happily have everything freed up to follow a team that won the double every single season – so that’s my opinion from my personal selfish viewpoint (greed is good, etc).
Now, just standing back as a casual observer, how long would this brand new league survive if that were to happen?
A balance is clearly required, and I’m sure we will see some freeing up in the ensuing years. It started this season with the junior marquee, I imagine a 2nd marquee, and other categories aren’t too far away.
Otherwise, teams have to do the very best within the rules, and I would have thought that MV has done a terrific job putting together the list that it has, where a grand final player like Panta can’t eve make the bench. Where Caceresa and Kaz were deemed as not being required players.
On the quality – you’re right at least two of the games each week are pub football standard. Personally, I follow one club, and I want to see them do well – and I’m happy to see them win, I’m unhappy if they lose, I’m extremely unhappy when I feel the refs have given us the wrong end of the pineapple.
However, plenty of players coming back from overseas, many from the 3rd tier of English football, aren’t exactly walking in to teams an dominating. The A-League is proving to be tougher and more competitive than many of these blokes imagined. And as you know, there’s a huge list of such players.
On the weekend, Thwaite probably played his best game for the season – but it’s taken him a while. Costa Rican international, Lopez, called up for duty this week, isn’t getting it all his own way. Nick Ward is coming on off the bench.
As you will recall, last season, current Socceroo Moore had a baptism of fire in his first ever A-League game.
I’d agree with you that a 2nd marquee would be great – but 6 of the 8 clubs are still making losses right now. If we took the views of you and Millster to their logical conclusion, there’d be no A-League within a few years. Some balance is needed surely (a bit like running an economy).
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Roar vs VIctory was just over 12K, likewise the SFC game was just over 12K.
PG had high 7K, which actually RAISED their avg crowd for the year and brought them just above the avg same time last year. They basically have their ‘benchmark’ and are sticking to it for now – - – around 7.5K.
SO, 3 of the 4 games designated for the round, and sitting about the 32K mark.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Pippinu -
perhaps people also over rate the green ness of grass in the lower leagues in Europe – - if 3rd tier players from England return to Australia and aren’t really that great…….does that tell us something?
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment
The1and only master -
very true – - AFL players of same height tend to be about 10 kg heavier than their soccer counterparts, but, then 10-30kg lighter than their rugby counterparts.
For some it’s a body type issue more so than sports specific conditioning.
This is one primary reason that the International Rules games are shorter because over a longer period of play, the AFL superior fitness would come so much more to the fore………..and this is why it’s ridiculous people rabbiting on about the amateurs beating the professionals as some amazing feat – - reality is that the IR rules and framework is totally structured to give the amateurs as much chance as possible. The handicappers have been doing a pretty good job.
Only ignorant folk don’t understand that…………..and probably would scratch their head at the Stawell Easter Gift and the Melbourne Cup.
dasilva said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Millster
The reason why people object to billionaires taking over clubs especially clubs that aren’t particularly successful is this Great clubs of the world like Liverpool and Manchester United and very recently Arsenal have a lot of money to spend because due to good management, good coaching they win trophies. It’s their success that allowed them to buy success. They earnt the right to spend more money to maintain their success through long history of achievement. Their achievement is meritocratic. I have no problems with them having more money to buy more success
However people take an exception with the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City as they were a mediocre club who have not have a realistic chance of winning the title. THey have no history of success. They were not title challengers for a very long time. However a big businessman came in bought their club and then have almost immediate success and now Chelsea are title challengers when in the past they never had a chance. It’s a short cut to the top. It taints the hard work that Alex Fergurson or Arsene Wenger did to turn those clubs to a premier team in Europe. I’m quite sure both of them would have love the sugar daddy when they were starting off. Hell this isn’t meritocratic. It’s not rewarding successfull clubs. Chelsea and Man. City were mediocre clubs and were rewarded for it as their cheaper price tag allowed them to be attractive for a foreign takeover.
I believe in a 60% of turnovers instead of salary cap
CLubs who make more money and is more successful can spend more money on players. Good clubs are rewarded, bad clubs are punish. However there is still a cap in there to save clubs from themselves. I believe that in the next 10 years you’ll see some bankruptcy from English clubs as a regular thing. Clubs are grounding themselves into debt as there is no safeguards to protect them from themselves. It will be absolutely bad it will be for the A-league if even one of the club folded and collapse into bankrupcy. You’ll will be back to the NSL days. It will be disasterous for a league in its infancy.
Now look at Germany – Every clubs makes a profit in the Bundesliga. The club that is relegated still makes a profit that season. It’s virtually unheard of for a club to fold and die due to bankrupcy. It’s a very financially stable league. ALso the 60% turnover still allow the dynasty of Bayern Munich and perrenial challengers of Werder Bremen, Shalke, Bayer Leverkusen etc.
HOwever this 60% turnover will prevent a big sugar daddy coming in and buying immediate success. Giving mediocre clubs a short cut to the big time. So if the sugar daddy does come and take over. He still has to increase the income of the club before able to use his money to buy better players. What’s wrong with that? THat’s will just encourage the owner put more money on improving infrustructure of the club and setting up long term success.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
dasilva
I agree with everything you wrote – and I reckon this % of turnover rule is worth looking at in the future.
Towser said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Pippinu
Ask me the direct question “Would you prefer an easing of the salary cap , helping therefore to raise the standard of football with perhaps a few clubs dominating at this level of football & the chance of some clubs going broke or continuing the eveness of competition but with an overall mediocrity of play with no club going broke.
My answer would be the former. I dont think the FFA realises how many football fans dont watch the A-League because of the “Pub Football ” tag,but on a personal level I know several & not just migrants but members of the Brisbane Football community who love Arsenal etc.
Having said that I will swap your team for mine anytime & yes Thwaite was excellent the other night.
Consider your forward line of Archie Allsop & Fabiano then consider the Roars of Van Dijk(a sloth is quicker) & Smits(from the BPL & plays accordingly)
Reinaldo is to come back but hes no better picked up from a DVD sent from a village in the Brazilian jungle.
So even with a salary cap a club can be clever in picking the right players & following on from my “reward “concept they should be allowed to continue to rewarded for their cleverness in choosing players by being allowed to keep cleverly choosing better players.
But no they are hampered by the Salary Cap.
In the meantime the Roar can blithely meander along choosing mediocre players because their recruiting is dumb & unimaginative,knowing that well, clubs like MV can never get too far ahead because of the salary cap.
MV are a shining example in the A-League of a club who could be massive unshackled given their already substantial crowds. They could be the Urawa Reds of the A-League. But they are shackled & they cant. That is plain wrong in my book.
Towser said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
dasilva
Have discussed the Bundesliga before. As a compromise its definitely worth a look & would reward clubs like MV(see post before) for their endeavours.
The1and only master said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
MC
Outstanding point !
I have to say the rules commitee for the IR series need to be applauded for constructing a hybrid game that is so evenly contested
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
A quick note about the capacity for ‘off field’ to soak up funds -
Melbourne FC are allocated 45 staff spaces at the new Melb Rectangular stadium development – - but presently have just over 50 staff. They are considering focussing back to the MCG to return MelbourneFC to the ‘G.
that’s all well and good
a quick comparison to the West Coast Eagles – West Coast’s proposed new development at Subiaco had plans to house 150 staff.
The reality as well is that the more funding to the admin of a club allows the greater retention for example of key membership staff who ensure a more supporter geared rather than club geared membership package suite of products – - and can reduce churn and can ensure that the more expensive ‘new business’ isn’t cancelled straight up via the churn.
So, more money to start with can very easily result in more money just via general operations.
There’s so much to take into account before you even worry about player payments. In the AFL regulated player market – list development is a huge factor – - development coaches, and player welfare officers to ensure that interstate and country recruits are settled appropriately – - – the recent return home of an Equadorian from the HAL shows that the HAL can worry all they like about paying big money to get foreign players……..but……….there’s no avoiding that Australia is a long way from anywhere, and most cities in Australia are a long way from anywhere. HAL clubs will have no shortage of ways to spend more money OFF the pitch……….but………
and this is a key factor here – —
the closed shop AFL labour market means that the one competition will benefit from player development – - these guys don’t reach the cusp of their potential and then head overseas for more money. In general, playes at that point are re-contracted and retained. The club investment has a pretty good chance of realising a return. In the soccer world – - that’s not so much the case…..
and for the HAL……..are the clubs all about winning trophies in the HAL? or developing talented players into future European higher tier players and hopefully Socceroos.
(it’s the Sheffield shield conundrum………do you play the 32 yr old fast bowler to win the game or do you play a 21 yr old raw quick who might wear the baggy green one day? PResently the NSW team is the ‘development’ team vs the Vic team which is going for the win. In effect, given the soccer global market as distinct to the what HAS been a national based cricket labour market – the HAL has to decide what it wants to foucs on – - going for the win, or going for the development pathway.)
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Just popping in for a second to see how this debate is evolving. DaSilva… geez you are swaying me a touch with your good arguments from my laissez-faire dogma. Good response to my views.
In practise, I readily admit that its not black and white. And I do like the solution of the percentage of revenues.
Though some of you will have already seen this, back in February I did some research on the NBA’s soft salary cap and suggested that it may be a good model for the A-League as a compromise between the current state of play and a completely unregulated situation.
You will see that the model starts with this very same concept of the % of revenues and goes from there. Anywat rather than repeating what I wrote, here is the link. The more I think about it the more I think it should be adopted.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/02/05/the-nbas-soft-salary-cap-and-its-potential-for-the-a-league/
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:54am | Report comment
You guys still adding to this blog, i thought i had better mention Artie Beetson, he has done more for the Aboriginal community than any other player. He introduced queenslanders to the Aboriginals in this state and made them hero’s. He is still going to the outback to support these players and move them forward. He was the shining light for the code and others have followed. This is why so many of them play for queensland, Justin Hodges, John Thurston,, Scotty prince, Greg Ingliss to mention but a few.
Queensland fully supports all the players and even Petro Civineciva has done wonders for Fiji. From what i have seen also is many Aboriginals players in the Northern Terrortory play AFL and league so they are all well supportered in these games, who was 1st is a mystery, but i can tell you that the All-golds i think had a Aboriginal on tour with them 1908, now thats ground-breaking. Anthony Mundine once said that the Aboriginals need to move to Queensland so they get a better go, i would not dought him on this isssue, you only have to look at Preston Campbell who plays for the Titians, he is now there local Hero, and a lifetime Member.
Just that other issue i read about stoppages, in league we have scrums, this is mearly used as a rest for the players, league fans accept this as the game now is so fast, i think the players who put their bodies through so much deserve a break. As for AFL i can see the Mark as a break for the players. Soccer i see corners as a break. We all know you cant keep going for a full 80, the only bludgers i see these days are union, they stop every 2 minutes for some indiscression that nobody knows what has happened to cause the stoppage, even the players look confused.
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
What you fail to take into consideration is the amount of muscle AFL players carry into the game. It is alot easier to carry a light frame around than one of muscle. “The1and only master” You are so right !!!! Thank You…. that is why a Grooky player can’t cover the same ground as a Footballer can…
MC
Football has transparency … Try to find the time lost in Grooky land with the lost time in marks all over the pitch especially when a team plays the flooding tactic in the last 10 minutes of normal time in the last quarter…. You won’t find any stats .. but they are there aren’t they… 20 corner kicks in a game of football .?. I think you have lost it…
Pip
of course you have heard of Graham Poll, shite happens, blunders in all football… In the past 11 years name me one game that did not go into over drive (added on time) … after 90 min.. btw I was at the SFC encounter against Israel and I think Frank Arok’s pleas were unfounded according to FIFA … They did not act upon the Arok’s conspiracy theory, to keep Australia out of WC contentions. If you didn’t already know FIFA always have an independent time keeper on the side line and act if something goes wrong at the end.. .. Bloody shame as he was right…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Oikee
and we Southerners are even more confused!!
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
So thats why they dont play 30 minutes M.C i was saying on a blog the other day that they should make it 30 minutes to allow for fitique to set in.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
KB
are you saying that the Italian ref was correct in not adding time??!! Maayte, can’t you remember the game? The Israelis were lying on the ground more often than they were standing on it!!
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
KB -
the best answer to flooding is accountability, if every player has a man – - then there’s no easy chip pass sideways marks to be got – - -surely from your soccer background you understand the cat and mouse game played, ……trying to break down the defensive flood so you can attack through the hole created. In the main, the player taking a mark in this back field play is NOT challenged immediately anyway and invariably called to play on before an opponent get’s near him.
KB – match 47 Spain had 10, okay, Saudis only had 4. 14 is a common total, match 37 though, Nederalnds v ARgentina in a nil all draw
19 shots, 17 corners, 40 fouls, 3 free kicks, 5 off sides, 5 yellow cards………….and 51 mins actual playing time.
MVFC 12 corners vs NJs 7 corners in rnd 3 this season. (okay, 37 attempts on goal).
The reality is, in a sense, without the ‘protection’ of stopping the clock…….the more action you have, the less action you have. i.e. this game had 37 attempts on goal, 19 corners, 37 fouls, 2 off sides, 8 keeper saves, 3 yellow cards….and 5 goals – - to MVFC………I’d love to see the ‘actual playing time’ for that game. But – - we don’t know.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
K.B i seen the player for New Zealand the other day getting into the football experience, he took a great dive and got away with it, “wink wink’ i thought he might have some Italian blood in him. We call it milking the penalty, not diving. Maybe you need to change the name like you are trying to do with the Kangaroos, and call this milking, it sounds alot better and the public accept it as such.
Since you want to be so much like the Kangas, maybe you can adopt there attatudes. 
Hey, ! its a start. 10 cups later you might get there. 
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
I would love to see 37 attempts at goal and at least 20 scored, anything under and dont pay the waste of time players, getting paid millions for missing, geez ;( No wonder they sing.
I could do a equal to that result, get 2 guys, put one in goal and give me 30 attempts at scoring, if i dont at least score 10 then something is wrong and thats at a amatuer level.
Weak Cattle.
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Seeing that this thread has become a magnate for all manner of footballing news, thus satisfying our catholic tastes, here is a bit more news of the oval ball variety.
Hawthorn has just anounced a $4+ mill profit for this year, eclipsing hte previous AFL record held by West Coast last season ($3.8 mill). These are quite serious numbers for a little comp at the arse end of the Earth.
Equally interesting is that my club, the bullies, are about to put on their rookie list a young Sydney kid, the first product of the AFL’s NSW “scholarship” scheme.
His name is Chris Ogle, son of golfing great, Brett. He comes from a rugby background, having played for Scots College, and has just finished year 12.
He will now move to Melbourne to try his luck at the indigenous game.
He first played the game at the age of 15, and he was noticed in some local school comp. He says:
“Although I struggled skill-wise I think they noticed I had some pace and was pretty fit. I loved the space and being able to run as far as I wanted.”
He had received athletics colours in year 10 but missed another set when he chose to travel to Melbourne with the NSW/ACT Rams for the under-18 championships only to miss out on the team and instead carry drinks on and off the MCG.
“It was a bit of a battle at school,” said Ogle, “missing Saturday sport to work on my AFL skills and Scots weren’t happy with how the AFL were coming in and taking their kids.
“But now it all seems worth it. Even missing out on an athletics carnival was worth it to run water on and off the MCG.”
Ogle remains a long-term project at the Bulldogs. He will not resume full training until next year because of upcoming shoulder surgery and he admits he is still learning to read the play and has some way to still travel in skill development.
It’s just another very small hint that aussie rules is making some in-roads into the biggest city in Australia.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
oikee -
re the IR – yep, the 18 minute quarters with NO time on – - (well, a primitive injury time type equation too – - which added generally less than 2 mins of added time, so, for AFL guys playing 20 min quarters effectively, it’s very short…….you’re just getting warmed up……and the reality is that each quarter in a regular AFL game, the ‘red time’ or the old traditional analogue scoreboard clock in the old 25 mins plus time on days …..the time past 25 was painted ‘red’………well, ‘red time’ is often where the fitter teams really damage the opposition. Games are very often won and lost purely on the basis of the aggregate of the last 3 minutes of each quarter.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Pippinu –
Yeah, I just read that one too…………..the old story about the allures of the game for kids who feel too restricted by the over regulation of player movement in some of the other footy codes.
“Although I struggled skill-wise I think they noticed I had some pace and was pretty fit. I loved the space and being able to run as far as I wanted.”
Says it all on that front.
The main thing though is that he’s still learning how to ‘read the play’ and fine tuning his skills…………they don’t just happen over night – - he’s still got a lot of making up to do, he’s a project player with no guarrantees.
Obviously for your Bulldoggies you’ll be hoping that both he and Tom Williams can come on (injury free for the latter) over the next few years.
(I wonder, does Ogle qualify as a ‘poached’ player from another code — or will there be a move to ban fun footy fridays??)
“I grew up playing rugby union,” he said, “and then in 2006 they started a fun Friday night AFL competition and then from that I made a junior rep team
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Understand that point M.C league is doing the adjustments with the interchange to let fatique set in, to me its a delicate situation that either goes one way or the other. Tinkering is the best word to use, because the games only need slight adjustments.
Hey PIP, just dont get upset if you read some league stories of them stealing your aussie rules talent down in Victoria, not happened yet but wont be long now.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
of interest :
FA Statement
Tuesday, 11 November 2008.
In relation to media reports today regarding future developments in drug testing in English football, The FA can issue the following clarification:
An FA spokesman said: “The introduction of a national testing pool in each country is a requirement of the WADA Code, but there are still discussions to be had between the FA and UK Sport on the size, composition and testing requirements for English football’s pool.
“To be clear, these details have not yet been defined, and The FA will be guided by FIFA’s view as our international governing body. We also want the PFA to be involved in these discussions.
“In addition, we can also clarify the status of cocaine in our Doping Control Programme.
“Under the WADA Prohibited List, cocaine is only prohibited in-competition. However, The FA’s social drugs programme, also supported by UK Sport, goes beyond the WADA Code in also prohibiting players from taking social drugs out-of-competition. This is borne out of a belief that footballers should be drug-free at all times.
“Under our Doping Control Regulations, a positive out-of-competition test for a social drug such as cocaine can and does result in a ban of up to 6 months for a first offence.
“The FA currently runs the biggest drug-testing programme in British Sport, with 1600 tests conducted every season. Our programme is run in conjunction with UK Sport and joint-funded by the two bodies. The bulk of testing is random, unannounced out-of-competition testing at training grounds. We are committed to being at the forefront of the fight against doping.”
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Pip,
But one thing for sure Footballers cover on average more ground.. over a game..
only the Italian ref and the FiFA official will ever know it seems they were in agreement and maybe your watch, Franks and mine stopped for some percluiar reason only the Gods know…
Just to reflect on my previous posts for Grooky players 19klms (avr stat shown on CH 10 “ground covered” for a team on the park) is one quarter multiply that by 4 = 76 klms divide that by 18 players not counting the interchange bench = 4.2 klms over 80 min discarding add on time … Dave posted up some research he obtained that one footballer covers nearly 12 klms over 90 mins and the “ground covered” per half by the team was around 57 klms over 45 min (SBS UCL). a total of 114 klms avr over 90 mins not including add on time.. and no half time in the sheds..
Okieee,
But I do rate it above the Clayton’s Grooky World Cup… at least we have an Australian team playing in it.. even if the world doesn’t see them as the real Kangaroos… 2010 the world will recognise the real ones … We don’t have to win it as long as we perform creditably and we will receive the accolades coming to us from all over… 
Is that Aluminium World Cup still in progress..?.
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Oikee
I won’t be upset!
I remember as a kid I used to love playing British Bulldogs, which reminds me a bit of RL – the point is that no doubt you will find kids who want to give the game a go and may take it up. They might be attracted to the constant physical contest and/or breaking through and scoring tries.
There’s plenty of scope for kids to play whatever they want.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Ok KB -
you’ve let me down by not referring to the official FIFA Laws of the Game of Association Football -
so, here goes (and please note how the ’simple game’ is so ‘precise’ and ‘clear cut’ in the terms used:
Allowance for Time Lost
Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:
-Substitutions
-assessment of injury to players
-removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment
-wasting time
-any other cause
The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.
—–
Oh MY GOD – - how archaic………….and how much power is too much power for the sole referee of the game, ….the sole R, the R sole.
So, the ref is judge AND jury. No wonder soccer folk get so peed off with ref’s so often. Learn from us Australians who never respected ‘umpires’ enough from cricket to fall for given football umpires too much power!!!!! (that’s the Australian character and certainly is NOT illustrated via the RU and Soccer school master style refereeing).
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Talking of time lost…
On another subject – is it odd that there’s nothing on The Roar covering tonight’s game??
Pippinu said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
MC
I too like the aussie rules approach to officiating – pay them well, demand high standards, absolutely rip into them when those impossible standards are not met!!
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
KB -
are you the muse for Jethro Tull????
THick as a brick!!!!
.. and no half time in the sheds..
Soccer players play two 45 min halves with a max 15 minute half time in the sheds.
AFL players play 4 qtrs each of 20 mins actual playing time duration plus ’stoppage time’ equating in general to about 10 mins – - thus 4 quarters of 30 mins each.
i.e. 1st qtr 30 mins duration
max 6 mins for qrtr time break
2nd qtr 30 mins duration
max 20 mins for half time break
3rd qtr 30 mins duration
max 6 mins for 3/4 time break
4th qtr 30 mins duration
Game over. 80 mins actual playing time played over ~2 hours of ‘game time’ for the 4 quarters with an additional max of 32 mins of ‘break time’ that IS NOT counted towards the 2 hours.
Compare to Match 50 of FIFA WC – Argentina vs Mexico 2:1 after extra time,
after 120 mins of ‘game time’ – - actual playing time equated at 77 mins, 39 for Argentina and 38 for Mexico.
Do you notice that roughly the same applies – - on whatever accounting practice that FIFA applied – - that for 80 mins of ‘actual playing time’, the result is about 120 mins of game time required.
I MUST admit to being curious about what stoppage time system they used.
KB – - do something useful and try to find out will you?
btw – if you seriousl believe AFL players are only covering 4 kms each over 120 mins of footy, you are seriously deluded.
Daves quote was “Onballers ave 12-14klm “.
ANd the main findings in recent times has been that traditionally onballers who played most the game midfield without change were pushing 20 kms or more, now, they tend to do less individually, but, more players A. rotate through the midfield and B. with flooding tactics and the like, more players form more positions are running further – - – so, the actual average across the board has closed.
Midfielder said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Mil
The reason for the cap is being missed or lost in the argument ……… my understanding in both the RL & AFL the cap was brought in to stop teams going broke and not being able to pay their players ……… this was also the reason for the cap in the A-League ……….. That because of the cap teams become more even is a by-product of the reasoning behind the cap.
Looking further into the logic ……… given our size population base and that no code has the base support Australia wide to let clubs fall over without considerable cost to the code in question. Further it protects agreed player payments ……. and allows all to share in whatever media income earned.
Is it without fault ………..no …….. does Australia have experiences of teams going broke ……….yes. Lets compare to overseas for all my love of the EPL ….outside the top say 9 clubs you actually have no hope of winning …. but football is so engrained this causes little damage …..or more correctly other codes like RU & RL do not have the management skills to take advantage of this problem.
My take is the A-League has created the best payment method and for this needs to be congratulated. First there is a cap in place around 2 million dollars, plus if you get sponsors who meet certain work criteria another 450, 000 is available, plus you can have one marquee player not counted in the cap and pay whatever you like and a marquee junior who can be paid up to 450, 000.
Meaning the A-League can have a excellent junior marquee plus a marquee this allows clubs better managed to improve their squads …….maybe not as good as Europe … but we live in Australia
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
Adelaide – - out of sight, out of mind.
And the further out the better…..;-)
Midfielder said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
MC
Go ya Red’s tonight…………but on Saturday night …….F*** the Reds and go the Mariners.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Spotted this story in the Goldcoast.com.au – I never realised Suncorp was built over on old graveyard. Is this the actual reason for the Roar to be moving over to the Union stronghold?
Coolangatta 18C – 25C. Shower or two Weather
November 12, 2008 03:04pm
Spooky Suncorp leaves Roar with grave fearsDavid Lewis
November 8th, 2008
THE search for answers to Queensland’s horror home form has taken a bizarre twist, with midfielder Massimo Murdocca admitting the fact that Suncorp Stadium is built over a one-time graveyard could have spooked the side.
With the fourth-placed Roar winning just 10 of 37 A-League home matches going into tonight’s blockbuster against leaders Melbourne Victory, Murdocca concedes the idea of an exorcism or blessing from a priest might be worth a try to lift a shroud of failure which hangs over the former burial ground.
Murdocca, a Roman Catholic, is slightly unnerved by the possibility of poltergeists in the penalty box.
“The players all know about the history of the stadium,” said Murdocca.
“We’ve studied it, and whether it’s a spiritual thing at play or just bad luck we don’t know.
“I’m confident we’ll turn it around but it’s a bit scary that there are still bodies under there. If you believe in spirits, you don’t want to hear that sort of stuff.
“When you can’t win, you ask yourself if maybe that’s the cause. It’s certainly a coincidence that we can’t win and the stadium happens to be built on top of a graveyard.
“I pray every night but I haven’t prayed over the Suncorp situation yet.
“If things get any worse I might have to.”
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Asked if it was time to call in a ghostbuster (in the form of a man of the cloth), Murdocca replied: “Who knows? It might be worth a try. We brought in some people to look at the feng shui of the stadium last season, but it didn’t change much.”
The site of Lang Park was originally North Brisbane Burial Grounds, which until 1875 was the city’s biggest cemetery before it became a recreational area in 1914.
It has been a mausoleum of broken dreams for the Roar, though Murdocca has another explanation for the Roar’s failure to bury opponents at Suncorp.
“It might just be that we haven’t been good enough,” he said.
“We haven’t put our chances away and we have to do better. Maybe we’re just a team that’s great away (four wins and two draws is the league’s best record).
“It’s freaky how successful we are on the road.”
Murdocca, one of the Roar’s pivotal performers in last weekend’s 2-1 win against Newcastle at EnergyAustralia Stadium, is convinced even the phantoms won’t stop them winning their first home game in five this season tonight.
“Last season we started an eight-game winning streak at about this time. We’ve won two on the spin now and I think Melbourne will be our third. This could be the turning point for us,” he said.
The Roar’s hopes have been boosted by the news that six-goal Charlie Miller has been passed fit after recovering from a calf strain.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
How funny the game is, on Fox they are still making out the reds can win, (fair does) they put a 3-0 goal aggregaite up on the screen and promote the game to the unconceince. Having already had they “tails whipped” by the japs we now have no sprouting about how great these boys really are, why cant someone just say we are way below average and need to concentrate on our own back-yard before we take on a minor nation.
K.B going to love to see you eat cake when the soccerdoos come home with there tails between their legs, Again.
2010, now thats the real joke. I have got my baseball bat out ready and waiting. Its nearly as humourous as the Union world cup being played in New Zealand. Yeh-Har. Funny thing is that union has already told us that they intend making millions losses for this cup. Looking forward to the after-marth of the Football world cup. You and i know the only press we will see is the riots taking place.
As for the Mass Gathering, nearly over K.B not a lick of trouble and outta this we have seen Ireland stand up to be counted, Fiji sprouting that they are now a league nation, ( once again be down-trodding by Union as stated in a report ) and PNG with there governments full backing. Looking forward to seeing what the others acheive. Cheers.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Midfeilder, yes the cap they have got is perfect, wish league had something like this one in place.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
M.C do you read my posts, i have mentioned this before about the Grave-yard under suncorp,
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Geez oikee if Japan is “minor” at 120 million people, the 2nd biggest economy in the world, and the 6th most capable defence force, then what is Australia?
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
MC,
if you read my post properly 19klms (avr stat shown on CH 10 “ground covered” for a team on the park) is one quarter multiply that by 4 = 76 klms divide that by 18 players not counting the interchange bench = 4.2 klms over 80 min discarding add on time … Dave posted up some research he obtained that one footballer covers nearly 12 klms over 90 mins and the “ground covered” per half by the team was around 57 klms over 45 min (SBS UCL). a total of 114 klms avr over 90 mins not including add on time.. and no half time in the sheds..
Well as I said this is how it is but if you want to argue your line of thought it is still 19klms per quarter avr even worse with your standing around add ons (30 min not officially recognised) now it looks even worse and let’s see with your rationale only 30 min in Football well still 57 klms ave a half on the stat hmm that seems even better doesn’t it …
Go the Reds and oh the envy of the Vics with Melb going out in the first two games (Sorry Dave) but unfortunately the North Bengal Lances the 9th largest team heading for the most populous country to lift their membership wanting to qualify for an Asian tournament hmm ACL I guess.?.. Nah full of dunces.. MC are you the lancer up Pipp’s backside..? Or is it the horns on your Grooky shirt… ? btw those Grooky club songs they play; Do you think they will survive through the 21 century..?
Yes indeed as Craig Foster said on TWG, Football is near perfect… The football family agrees except the few wanna be Nth Koreans STFS living in Melbourne .. …
Yes we all but a tinny corridor between the two greater respected cities will be going for the REDS … Not that they are the team but I love an Australian underdog …
~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Just seeing if your awake Millster, i knew calling Japan minor would wake the dragon,
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
If you love the underdog that much K.B get behind the soccerdoos, i do, i love supporting these misfits.
What you dont take into account K.B is leg size and height as well as body weight, if you really find a need to get technical about who travels the furtherest. In league you dont travell at all, you get polvirised.
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
oikee,
So unAustralian laddie .. Tell me who will be presenting the Aluminium Cup.. to the lads.. ? Do you have any idea and the worth of it in today’s metal prices ?.. Will it have any periwinkles around the edges … Hmm yes I can donate 20 doz XXXX empties if Colin Love has run short of aluminium .. I could even scrounge a few Clayton Aluminum left overs from the Grooky World Cup; then there’s always plastic you can fall back on …
Ah the FIFA world cup is made of solid 24 carrot gold. I think that about says the worth of the minnows from the the real prize. As long as we do well that should be enough to excite the nation to call us Kanga-Roos … This Aluminium prize you are chasing is it any real worth ..? Apart arousing your primitive instincts of you head butting coconuts… Not that there is anything wrong with that…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Not so much underdogs anymore oikee – when within our confederation we are not clearly top, but we are in a top group of 4 or 5 (including Japan, Korea, and Iran) that are regarded as the ones to beat.
And if you make it to WC finals you are in the top 32 of 200-odd entrants (so in the top 15% of the world) – to be honest for the time being I would be quite happy if the Socceroos simply made it there on a regular basis as that is a great achievement in itself.
Can’t wait for FIFA world rankings to be released overnight. I think Australia may just creep into the top 30 or so which would be awesome. Speaking of that, back to Japan, at a national level you should know that some years ago they had a spell around ranks 10-15, peaking at 9th in the world. So we’re talking a nation that has quite some respect and a serious history of world-class performance.
Michael C said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
oikee -
…….um………….apparently not all of them!!!! (you probably mentioned it on a RL tab and I’d be the last to go trolling!!!
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Oikee,
When did the Kanga–Roos get polverized in the last FIFA 2006 real world cup.. ? Nah laddie you must have cracked open your coconut and the remnants of your liquid brain cells spilt over the grass at Suncorp that, you were given by a half wit in your adolescence that, you held so dear…
~~~~~~~
KB
ren said | November 12th 2008 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
kb-your ignorance is amazing. have you ever watched a game of live football in your life let alone played a quarter. the only place you will see an average of 4.2 kms covered in a game is junior football.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Talk them up all you like Kanga bear. Its only you who you have to impress, i am quite happy seeing them run mid 30ish as our ranking surgests, i dont make mountains outta anthills as some of us doo. And you keep looking for the gold in that cup kanga, our cup has a history about it, it goes missing every so often.
More history to add to the alluminien cup.
Millster said | November 12th 2008 @ 4:49pm | Report comment
Off to Orchard road and the bar for the Adelaide game. Funny to be seeing an Aussie club from up here in Singapore – as I said I wish them well and hope they play with pride, even though I don’t think they will turn around the 3-0. I also hope Gamba turn up again as they were a joy to behold last week; absolutely on par with anything out of Europe.
Cheers boys
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
Ren,
yes ren I did have a soft spot for Carlton in my early days and watch a lot of AFL on CH 10 Saturday afternoon last year in the quarter stats that came up in the afternoon was the stat team “ground covered 19klms ” it was always around the 19klms mark give or take plus and minus average … multiply that by 4 and it is 76klms for four 20 minute quarters so check it out next season on CH 10 only Gold Coast of course. I was amazed as well had to check over a few weeks to see if it was true… Yes it was… Now divide that by 18 and their you are 4.2 av a player over 80 min..
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Ren,
speaking of ignorance Ren do you get CH 10 on a Saturday afternoon in Perth .. If you do do you check out the stat “ground covered”… ?
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | November 12th 2008 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Okiee,
History what history…? An Aluminium cup you are the one being disrespectful … I love the Aluminium Cup; Just sick of playing pub teams and then it being handed over to us with no real contest… Nah give me the solid 24crt Gold Wold Cup .. The holy Grail; now that is something to aim for laddie; even Matty and Joey Johns will tell you that …
Last post off to cheer the Reds on at the CRSL ole ole ole … ole … ole .. I just love an Australian underdog….. makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck doesn’t it….
~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | November 12th 2008 @ 7:10pm | Report comment
Oikee
Have they found the cup yet or is it still lost ….. lol what a joke they put the RLWC in Australian Post Express pack with the bubble wrap and all .. no expenses spared …… then it gets lost ……. similar to the RL management team I guess.
oikee said | November 12th 2008 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Yes they found the cup. Get used to cheering for the underdog K.B
ren said | November 12th 2008 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
kb- footy on tv is completely different to watching a game live, and yes i watch the footy on ten every sat arvo and night, abd on seven on fridays and saturdays. and if i dont have too much uni work i’ll try and catch a game on fox
i’ll give you an average of 4.2 kms for elite midfielders PER quarter but nothing more than that.
ren said | November 12th 2008 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
that should be ‘and on seven every friday and sunday’ the only exceptions are for when im at a freo home game
Michael C said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
re the 4 main footy codes -
this was released back around 2006-
http://www.sportedu.org/news_061204.asp
Through GPS (Global Positioning System) devices and other research tools, Norton has tracked the training and playing movements of teams including the Adelaide Crows (AFL), Adelaide United (Soccer), the NSW Waratahs and Wallabies (Rugby Union).
SPORT KNOWLEDGE AUSTRALIA RESEARCH EXTRACTS
Training and volume loads in professional team sports are now higher than ever. Today we cannot expect to increase these loads any further as the risk of injury and overtraining will become unacceptably high.
RUGBY UNION
Game density is an index of the number of players around the ball at any time. The density has increased since the first World Cup (1987) and the last one (2003).
Play periods last much longer today, and are played at a higher speed once the ball is released from set pieces. Since there are many more players around the ball players today face a much tighter and overall faster game. This requires quick and correct decision-making under increased pressure, a greater level of fitness for recovery, and superior skills.
AFL
Speed of the game is much faster today.
During the past 6 years, Norton et al found that distance covered per match has decreased from about 20 km to 12-15 km.
Today, players cover a shorter distance at higher speeds, while previously they covered longer distances at lower speeds.
Player density has also increased significantly in the AFL.
SOCCER
Game speed has increased continuously for the past 30 years.
Percentage of the game as play time has decreased. Also, the time to restart the game after stops (corner kicks, throw ins, kick outs) has increased. This shows that today the game is more intermittent than before and that play periods are played at a very intense tempo.
With longer stoppages, recovery from previous efforts is higher, resulting in higher levels of power once the game is restarted.
Player density has also increased significantly in international soccer games.
ABOUT SKA: Launched in June 2005 with a Federal Government grant, SKA is jointly owned by the University of Sydney, University of Technology, Sydney and the Sydney Olympic Park Authority. SKA assists the continued global growth of the sports industry, helping more communities around the world to benefit from Australia’s strong sporting culture. Since its launch, SKA has delivered sport management programmes at the prestigious Indian School of Business in Hyderabad, run facility management courses in China and various seminars and courses in Australia on topics as diverse as player valuation strategies, genetic doping in sport, player welfare, executive sport management, elite sport coaching, major event management and facility management.
Koala Bear said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Midfielder,
We can’t leave the lads with nothing to hold above theirs heads can we.. As light as it may be…. 
Oh no, oh no, have they lost the Aluminum cup..? Heavens forbid … Okiee, just got through 24 doz of XXXX last night at the CRSL with the “All Stars” … Where is the nearest smelter to forge a new Aluminium cup .. Any ideas ?? I just checked out the ASX and borax has plummeted. So alternatively we could get a bag load of cheap borax on the cheap before it goes to China me ol’ China Plate…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment
KB
I am sure there are many second hand shops around who would have a cup for sale and with a bit of spit and polish would clean up nice …….. just have to rub off the name off who ever won it. Pawnbrokers would have plenty and could be another place to look for a replacement.
Redb said | November 15th 2008 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
anyone know any good golf jokes?
Redb
Pippinu said | November 15th 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
One A-League game tonight. The team that has been in the news for the past fortnight, that has single handedly put Australia on the world map, that has struck a blow for making Australia credible throughout the sporting world, rocked into town, and a whole 8,000 enthusiastic souls were there to greet them (although, in all honesty, they didn’t sound all that enthusiastic).
Even a 3-0 scoreline couldn’t fire up the home crowd – and they were blessed with hosting the conquerors of the World on their little ol’ dung heap! I could have sworn that I was looking at an NSL game from the 80s.
Michael C said | November 16th 2008 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
It doesn’t all quite add up – – - – maybe the ‘freebies’ have dried up?? KB??
Midfielder said | November 16th 2008 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
MC
In a recent football article a comment was made which I shall pass on to you ……… …..” So the message to any surviving members of the anti-football brigade out there is: Don’t you worry about football, we’ll solve our problems on our own and in our own time.”….. but keep watching we loose no sleep over the AFL …… are you loosing sleep over football.
Joe FC said | November 16th 2008 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
“The team…..that has single handedly put Australia on the world map, that has struck a blow for making Australia credible throught the sporting world….hosting the conquerors of the World”. Pippinu the employer of misrepresentation, exaggeration, hyperbole & fantasy determined not to let fact get in the way of a good story. It seems you were never told that ignorance and stupidity are not virtues. Childish illusion may very well appeal to the lowest common denominator but I’ve always preferred the learned person’s perspective.
Pippinu said | November 16th 2008 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
My intention is actually to encourage everyone to cut the hyperbole.
AU’s adventure hasn’t translated to bigger A-League crowds in its own city, let alone wherever they appear in other parts of Australia.
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Joe FC
can you “smell the fear” from these anti-football, Marngrooky types… They post more comments on a Football site than on an AFTL thread.. That says it all doesn’t it…
Last Sunday on SBS the final of the “under 17’s girls World Cup” was played in Auckland NZ of all places and drew a crowd of 16,162 .. Back in Australia we have had the Marn Grook world cup on a deserted beach somewhere in Victoria with no crowd in attendance; the show case of the season hmm what is going on MC….? 8(
~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
KB -
funny, the HAL in Auckland couldn’t attract more than 4000.
So……….what are you reading into the crowd of the girls world cup vs the Auckland NZ Knights……………time for the HAL to have a 2nd crack at Auckland are you suggesting?
and you know fully well -
the AFL IC is NOT a ‘world cup’, nor even a ‘pseudo world cup’
the AFL IC was anything but a show case of the season
what garbage you go on with KB.
Typical of the tripe they dish up at the Currumbin RSL………you should go across the road to the sports club instead……….y’know, the one at the footy oval……
……..wonder how many freebies and school kids and ‘guides’ groups were at the girls u17 WC.
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 10:49am | Report comment
btw – KB
that final is the only game they posted an attendance for…………..all the others, seemed rather devoid of attendees.
So – attendance starts out with all the other teams for the official presentations………..not trying to devalue it – - but, you on the other hand are endeavouring to OVER state it.
btw – please note – the FIFA site includes ‘actual playing time’ stats again.
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
re Ade Uted -
SOUTH Australian sporting legend Ken Cunningham made a pretty big admission last week.
Writing in the Sunday Mail, the former state cricketer and SANFL umpire declared an Adelaide Utd victory would be the greatest achievement by a club in SA sport history.
Bigger than back-to-back Crows flags. Bigger than the Power knocking off the Lions. It’s a big call.
He commented that whilst the ‘occassion’ was ‘great’, the game itself was a bit of a yawn. Y’see – - the international ‘flavour’ has a level of appeal that the game itself doesn’t. It’s interesting in countries like Australia, the US, Canada, NZ etc – where existing domestic codes are much more appealling – - and many folk happily pursue them, and will jump on the ‘international’ bandwagon of soccer when it suits.
Which is exactly why the phenonom illustrated by Pippinu is true -
AU’s adventure hasn’t translated to bigger A-League crowds in its own city, let alone wherever they appear in other parts of Australia.
There’s no hyperbole about it. Trying to suggest otherwise is the devious path.
Reality anyway – is that those soccer advocates who declare that the game will take all before it in this country – - – are the ones who wish to unrealistically project as inappropriate a ‘football’ model on this country as those who endeavoured to farm the harsh Australian conditions as if still working in Europe.
Joe FC said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:05am | Report comment
watched part of that game on SBS Koala Bear, good to see the girls getting plenty of support.
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:09am | Report comment
MC
Looking at some real estate are we in Currumbin?
Re: crowds just about the same as the North Melbourne paying customers at Carrara… Girls WC Semis had 8k… according to the commentator more than Nth Melbourne paying customers at Carrara … 17yr old school girls…
I am please you checked it out for yourself.. Now what was the ground covered stat 19 klms 20 min per quarter again (30 min) 
Are you ready to say sorry lad… ?
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Joe FC,
So did I and for a bunch of 17yr old school girls and TV coverage it certainly put the Full Grown Men’s Grooky World Cup to shame didn’t it.. ?
~~~~~~~~
KB
Joe FC said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Michael C
it goes without saying that your perspective, like your knowledge of history leaves me bemused.
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Joe FC -
A. don’t read too much into banter with KB — giving his poor grasp upon reality, it makes for a poor conversation for a 3rd party to enter into.
However – -
I’m curious – what in particular leaves you bemused?
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
MC,
I have to agree whole heartily with Joe FC we are bemused (both of us) to the fact you post more articles on Football Threads than the Grooky ones — do you have a problem with reading the tabs above to where you should put your ignorant rabbiting stuff ?? Especially your poor knowledge of what is actually happening outside of Victoria; not to mention what has recently happened in NZ..? Was your wife too afraid to bring you into the real world with the most recent turn of events over there ??.. hmm ?
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
KB -
check out Millsters contributions on the AFL thread.
Is there a law against it?
Do you have a problem with cross code banter?
re happenings in NZ – - their election was a slightly bigger deal, and ……………along with Oikee, obviously we’ve all been glued to the results to see if the Kiwis could make the RLWC final
btw – KB – -you well know that here and there, I want to discuss Australian Football………..so……….surely I’m not having issues with tabs…………there is only one code that plays the ‘Australian Football League’ and by the ‘Laws of Australian Football’
Norm said | November 17th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
“Typical of the tripe they dish up at the Currumbin RSL”
Ye gads MC..I’ll have you know that our world class entertainment officer…jimbo…does a fantastic job keeping all the lads amused at the CRSL..usually by rerunning all your old Roar postings..absolutely hilarious.:-)
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Norm -
world class entertainment officer – - ah, I’d best let jimbo know that the Nintendo DS’s for the kids was a great touch.
KB -
twas the recent trek to QLD for a wedding out west of Brissie. Ended with a couple of evenings at Currumbin. I was most impressed with some of the high quality local Aust Football venues along the Gold Coast. The Currumbin FC have quite nice digs. Surprised though at the lack of KB’s hand at work…….i.e. the lack of a graffiti daubed ‘T’ between the F & C.
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
MC,
you see what you fail to realise is; that Millster is a very respectful person along with his comments in regard to the Marn Grook code and others . Yes, he can lose it on occasions with the ignorant posts that he has had to endure; and I have read too, also you have read, and put up. However, he does not work for the FFA to destroy Marn Grook. His writings are always fair and true .. Except for those very rear occasions I have disagreed with him that, 30% of what you write is creditable ..
Now, we here on the Football tab all know you work for AFTL. Which, Vicentin has said; it would not be possible for someone to write so much, or so often, as you do, to demean Football, unless you do work for the AFTL… So to say that we Football folk are bemused is an understatement..
As I have written before I was hoping that the New Zealanders would get into the RL Final as the Girls under 17s Football have made an enormous impact in the land of the Kiwi warriors; the only ones left on the planet … Let me know when the Hakka is over before I switch on the Tele… The last one I saw I was worried about Benji Marshall swallowing his tongue… Have you ever seen that happen… ?
God it’s ugly…
~~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | November 17th 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
MC
the ACL finish now. Before people can’t afford to go and watch 2-3 matches a week.
Let’s see if there are bigger crowds for future Adelaide matches at hindmarsh before you reach for that conclusion. If the A league crowd for Adelaide remains low and doesn’t increase despite the finish of the ACL then I would concede that you won your argument about ACL hasn’t translated to bigger A-League crowds in its own city
Koala Bear said | November 17th 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Norm,
One can only imagine the despair on MC’s face, so close yet so far….. 
Or was it ‘Gastro.?.. hmm
MC, has heard of the legendary beauty of Doris from Siberian Paul and has felt let down in life’s only true search for true happiness of not ever being allowed to meet with her, to touch her, to caress her, in the CRSL store room.. Now it is all too late with Benni taking a Government free lease of the CRSL store room…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 17th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
KB -
I’ve never before seen anyone swallow Benji Marshalls tongue…………I guess it’s usually for ‘private’ functions only.
DaSilva -
exactly true – in my reviews of the crowds being down across the board I’ve been sure tor recognise the fact that AU have mitigating factors. And certainly, it remains to be seen. I’ve mentioned before about how the Port Power people would save their ‘finals’ spend for a prelim final ahead of a 1st round final.
The1and only master said | November 17th 2008 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
I have read with delight the writtings of KB.
I am sure he is clinically insane, for he is chastising MC for writing on this thread when it was infact MC who started it with what I consider to be a very very conservative figure on the falling A-league crowd figures for the year.
KB also denied flatly that a 2 for 1 promotion to a sydney and central coast game was a TICKET GIVEAWAY.
What amuses me most about soccer fans in this counrty is that they have the arrogance to compare soccer to Australian Football when a far more compelling arrangement would be to compare it to Basketball, with regard standard compared to the world arena as well as crowd figures ans mainstream interest
jimbo said | November 17th 2008 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
The 1 and only wanker . . .
you make the same mistake that the other Anti-Soccer Hooligans like MC make and ONLY focus on attendances at A-League games.
Football offers this great country of ours a whole lot more than just bums on seats at A-League games.
Football is already the number one football code in this country if you consider number of registered players – male and female, all ages, number of clubs, teams and officials and level of international recognition and international television audiences.
No one should underestimate the achievements of Adelaide United and the FFA to get to where we are now.
For a start, the team which makes it to a final of a competition has actually performed very well.
Whether it be the NRL or AFL Grand Finals, the finals of the cricket One Day Internationals or finals of the Super 14s, it is generally accepted that the two teams competing have excelled to get that far.
Let’s put Adelaide United’s achievement in making it to the final of the Asian Football Confederation’s (AFC) Champions League against Gamba Osaka into perspective.
To get to the final, Adelaide had to:
(a) finish as either minor premiers or champions of the Hyundai A-League to earn the right to represent Australia in the first place
(b) come through a group stage playing six home and away matches against teams from Korea, China and Vietnam
(c) navigate through the quarter finals and semi finals, playing a further four home and away matches, against one of the most successful teams in J-League history, Kashima Antlers, and Bunyodkor from Uzbekistan, and
(d) meet another top team from the Japanese league which is widely considered the top national league in the Asian confederation.
Since 2006, the FFA has been actively addressing the shortcomings of the sport with a long term plan for Australia to improve its technical skills and to achieve sustained success internationally.
Last year, Football Federation Australia (FFA) released the first ever national strategic framework for the development of the sport in this country.
It is a long term plan for Australia to achieve sustained success at international level within the historical context of a lack of investment in the critical area of football development over many decades.
The national football development plan sets out a comprehensive program for improving and upgrading the game at every level and for all participants, whether they be players, coaches, referees, volunteers or other administrators. The plan addresses development at two distinct levels:
· ‘game development’ which focuses on the grassroots that underpins the sport’s popular base as well as the development of talented players who may well become the next Brett Emerton, Heather Garriock or Lucas Neill, and
· ‘talented player development’ which is focussed on a nationally coordinated talent identification system involving the Australian Institute of Sport, the State Institutes, the member federations and the Hyundai A-League clubs.
Since then, the FFA has delivered a number of the initiatives outlined in the national football development plan all of which have the aim of improving the skill levels and technical proficiency of players. These include:
· introduction of Small Sided Football which aims to improve the skill levels and technical proficiency of young players
· establishment of a National Youth League
· establishment of the Westfield W-League
· improved integration of pathways for talented players, and
· a customised development program for the top 50 talented players.
Small sided football is critical to our strategy as it gives children more touches of the ball, leading to improved skill levels. After just one year, 70,000 children are playing small sided football and this number will increase further over the next two years.
It’s one thing to produce good players, but we also need to produce good coaches.
While it’s terrific to see the ‘mums and dads’ at weekend games helping out their children’s teams, we also want to ensure those mums and dads have the skills they need also to help children appropriately as they guide them in the early years.
To date, the FFA has:
· introduced a national coach accreditation scheme from grassroots upwards
· held our first ever national coaching conference with leading experts from around the world, for coaches from grassroots to elite
· set out minimum coaching qualifications for elite level coaches, and
· awarded the first four scholarships under our new Elite Coach Development Program – to two former Socceroo captains, Alex Tobin and Paul Okon; to another former Socceroo, Alistair Edwards; and to Nicola Williams.
In time for the 2009 winter football season, the FFA will have a new online course available for accredited coaches to supplement and complement certificate courses.
The best Aussie football players are in big demand overseas. This is a reality which has been ever-present in football for 25 years and reflects the fact that football is the truly global game and the growing numbers show how the talent and player base is growing.
It is almost a rite of passage for talented young Australian players to try their luck in the bigger and richer leagues around the world, just as it is for young footballers from elsewhere such as South America.
It is a reality which other sports can only dream of, especially AFL.
But with the large participant base, nine national football teams for men and women, and regular competitive opportunities through the Asian Football Confederation, the Hyundai A-League (along with the National Youth League and the Westfield W-League) will grow into a more and more significant competition and source of playing talent for national teams as the competition matures and evolves.
At the end of season 3 of the Hyundai A-League, average crowds were 15,350, club memberships increased by almost 100% on season 1 and FOX Sports continued to report increasing viewer numbers.
Even though there has been a small reduction in crowds to date in this season, we are light years ahead of the old national soccer league.
Expansion will not only give us the best geographical footprint of any national sporting competition in the country, but more teams will help make the competition even more vibrant and attractive.
We are expanding to ten teams next season, with the addition of the Gold Coast and North Queensland Fury, and to twelve the season after.
Even further growth of the Hyundai A-League will come from creating local heroes that young players can touch and see week-in, week-out and we are taking positive steps to ensure that we have enough quality players available.
Importantly, an expanded Hyundai A-League will also give clubs an extended season with more games which – as every coach and armchair expert knows – leads to improved skill levels, technical proficiency and match preparedness.
So, far from being “in crisis” football is rebuilding from the grassroots up.
· expanding the Hyundai A-League
· involved in regular quality competition in Asia
· over 1 million Australians enjoy playing the sport
· a national plan to improve technical skills
· The sport is back in the ‘black’ financially (which we will be announcing later this month), and
· We are bidding for the right to host the 2015 AFC Asian Cup and the 2018 FIFA World Cup.
To suggest that football is like basketball shows your incredible lack of understanding of Australian sport and football in particular and a narrow mindedness and sporting bias that is far worse than any form of imagined insanity.
Midfielder said | November 17th 2008 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Jimbo
That’s a great letter BB wrote and what is so great …… and I have often said this the old soccer management allowed the media to belt them around and could never stand on their record ……. they even told Kerry Packer to fuck off when he tried to set up a 10 team national competition yonks ago and well before any code went national with more money on the table than either RL or AFL where getting at the time ……….. but our management today is running a strong code and we can know stand proud and say sticky on your wicket or whatever ……….
Michael C said | November 18th 2008 @ 5:44am | Report comment
Jimbo -
coupla things – - AU met and beat a J-League team earlier in the ACL – - but, we all know that different clubs attach a different focus on ‘external’ competitions at the early stages relative often to their progress in their domestic league. Kashima Antlers are atop the J-League table whilst Gamba Osaka are 7th with a crap GD. Kashima didn’t put too great a focus on the ACL at that early stage, whilst, in the early phases Ade Utd were inbetween seasons and thus inbetween conflicting domestic campaigns and able to totally focus their preparation on the ACL.
Basketball -
the basketball analogy is more interesting than you give it credit for.
Basketball offers international opportunities, back in the late 80s and early 90s the impact of US culture, the biggest sporting names any where were Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar etc, the most common casual sporting garb would be a Chicago Bulls top. Suddenly, we all wondered that basketball wasn’t ready to consume all before it in the country – - we were selling out soul to the NBA!!!!
Basketball was in a serious growth phase. A wonderful geographic foot print was achieved. (for all that is worth). The national league expanded. As a TV support, the local product was complimented by the international dimension, including the NBA on TV. Who could compete with that?
Basketball offers olympic and vast international opportunity of top notch competition and recognition and huge money. Girls can play it and suddenly netball was under threat.
And yet – - what happened? Did America and basketball become unfashionable? Did the game expand too rapidly? Did the game expand too regionally? Did the game spread the talent too thinly? Was the local lower standard too much compromised rather than complimented by the ready comparison to the NBA?
Basketball still has pretty good participation numbers.
But, the top level of the game has spiralled in decline, it’s passed the ‘mature’ phase and, whether cyclical or not, is in decline. The game has been lost to local TV (oh, sure, people could blame Ch.10 of burying it!!!!). Attendances have fallen.
There are plenty of warnings here for soccer to NOT take endless growth for granted.
The comparisons to the initial ‘boom’ in the J-League and subsequent ending of the honey moon and a 10 year consolidation phase is a neat reminder that in a nation of 120 million, without major alternatives in the football domain – that soccer needed to be careful at how rapidly it expanded. Even now, the broader strength of the game still hasn’t seen crowd averages reach the very early (novelty value) peak.
A lot of soccer folk don’t want to admit that the initial growth in crowds may have included a novelty factor.
If head office doesn’t play around a potential 10 year lull as a contingency – then they’d be negligent.
And, already, we’ve heard the term ’stale’ and needing ‘freshening up’, with respect to the 8 team HAL. So, effectively a recognition that the honey moon is over, the novelty factor has waned……..so……..we need what? MORE novelty!!!!! 2 new teams from QLD including one far, far away in Nth Qld in a regional outpost.
There’s dangerous parallels to the basketball ‘growth phase’ – - and, after all – Australia is NOT a sporting vacuum – - – far from it.
And as per
http://www.convictcreations.com/football/battleamerican.html
Basketball
Like it was for baseball, the 90s were very good for basketball. It was one of the most watched sports on TV, had a very successful national league, and was very popular amongst young people. Many basketball fans even felt their game was in a position to challenge Australian football for the title of Australia’s most popular sport. Today, basketball is not on TV and many of the teams have gone bankrupt. Media, corporate and spectator interest is low.
Like baseball, basketball suffered due to America falling out of fashion. Aside from its image problems, basketball probably suffers due to comparisons to Australian football. In some respects, basketball is like an indoor version of football, except that it lacks the physical component, and unpredictability.
Perhaps, just perhaps – - soccer will remain in this country mostly similar to basketball – - – a high participation game that we don’t really want to watch the domestic competition because, it really doesn’t stack up via both soccer and non-soccer comparisons.
That’s the point.
The1and only master said | November 18th 2008 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Jimbo
All the white papers in the world won’t guarantee success especially when like Basketball, the A-League has to rely on private money to support your clubs because the public certainly dosen’t.
Take into account the credit crunch and you might find the A-League with their high flying backers go down a similiar path to a number of NBL clubs. Not withstanding the chief overload of the FFA, the tax dodging Frank Lowry with his heavily financed expansion into London with his new wam bam shopping centre. Looks like Frank has backed 2 losers of late, the A-League and opening a shopping complex at the begining of a Major consumer lead recession.
BTW, the increases in Fox Sports viwers are most likely just a result of increased subscription to Pay TV in general, not an expanding of viewers interested in soccer.
The1and only master said | November 18th 2008 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Oh Yes Jimbo, what the language please
Dave said | November 18th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
The1and only master (at what?)
“BTW, the increases in Fox Sports viwers are most likely just a result of increased subscription to Pay TV in general, not an expanding of viewers interested in soccer.” Got some stats to back that up or just going with a dig at the game? Fox Sports seem to have a different view to yours.
” KB also denied flatly that a 2 for 1 promotion to a sydney and central coast game was a TICKET GIVEAWAY” Is that what the AFL did for 10 – 15 years to get the Swans up and running and they still do on the Gold Coast to get a crowd?
What is your fear of Sokkah? Any sane person looking at the situation from 4 years ago to now would need to take a 2nd take…the change and improvement has been truly remarkable for the better…there is no comparison in every facet of football now. Amazing that the knockers cant wait to have a dig though. Pick your moment when you think there’s a chance of a wobble.
Well put your cards on the table why do you hate Sokkah or should we refer to it as the game you would call Wog Ball?
The1and only master said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Davo,
If you want to call it WOG BALL go ahead.
I was simply making the case that to compare soccer to AFL is a little presumptious from the soccer folk. A fairer comparison would have to be with Basketball, of which I have stated my reasons.
If you dont think my reasons are valid then state why ? Rebuff then all you like but dont stand their with your panties in a twist telling me i fear soccer. I dont and doubt anybody does. I fear soccer as much as i fear basketball.
It is the soccer folk who should fear basketball because that is the path you are treading.
Did I deny the AFL gave tickets away to the swans games ? Did I deny the AFL gave tickets away on the GC ?? Mate if your going to make a statement make sure it’s relevant.
The roar give away free tickets every single week from free community newspapers and they dont get a crowd.
What is so commical about you soccer folk is that you act as though the A-league is the first time soccer has been played in this country. It’s new, people have to get used to it etc. The swans in Sydney was new, AFL was foreign at the time.
So if your going to make a comparison please make it a well thought out one, no one inspired by anger and ignorance
Now do you really want me to tell you why i think soccer is painful to watch ?? If you do i will
Michael C said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:38am | Report comment
The1and only master -
soccer (HAL) still has a major issue that for such a high participation base – that it doesn’t attract the major interest of it’s own ‘family’.
Until that happens – then, it can’t at all be compared to the AFL. And, effectively is more easily compared to basketball and netball and even the NRL (who can’t engage ’supporters’ to buy club memberships or attend games). In a crowded market like Australia – - there is exhibited some clear examples of sports that fail to bridge the participation and top level viewing/attendance divide. What makes anyone think soccer will manage to bridge that gap at the HAL level?
I reckon, the ACL might be a little earner on the side now and then should a HAL team progress like AdeUtd. The Socceroos will continue to do good business – - but, in reality, they’ve been selling out the MCG well before the HAL came along.
But – I admit, that I too often look at HAL and NRL crowds from an AFL perspective.
When, instead, we should benchmark soccer with soccer.
And an awful lot of leagues around the world are sub 20K crowd averages, such as Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, USA, Japan, Sth Korea, China, France etc etc.
So – - perhaps the HAL has achieved market maturity already??
No one really knows for sure.
btw – the thing as well that all those participation figures fail to show is sports exclusivity. We know from the AFL perspective via club memberships and attendance as well as viewing figures that those ‘associated’ with the game are far more ‘engaged’ with it. Other sports though, haven’t achieved that, and the thing we know about the AFL is the distinct seasonality, the lack of overseas and international component – - means that many AFL fans DO follow other sports too. Like the Socceroos, EPL, cricket, basketball, the Wallabies etc etc.
Towser said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
The1and only master
As a Roar fan I needs to put the free tickets from community newspapers into perspective. Our local paper gives away 10. So I presume that all local community papers across Brisbane do the same or it could be 10 for the whole group. However taking the latter as the go I doubt whether more than 100 free tickets are given away overall. Hardly an amount that makes a difference either way to the Roars crowds.
If you wish to discuss the Roars crowds I’m quite willing to do so seeing as you’ve mentioned them saying they dont get a crowd. Perhaps you should clarify this statement by stating what is a crowd,judged by what standards.
I tend to judge by what has gone before in football,then secondly what has happened over the last 4 years when football in Australia has had what I consider a professional administration & a platform to grow on- Asia & our participation in its various competitions
If we take the first premise that football/A-League as stated is not new then a comparison between the Roars crowds & its NSL predecessor the Strikers shows that last season the Roar averaged 17000 per match. This is more than 5 times the Strikers average.
This year the crowds are down to an average of 12,000 for reasons I have gone into in detail on several occassions,not least of which is their dismal 10 from 38 home record. Brisbane is a winners city.
Pippinu said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
The1and etc.
How about a shorter name?
I too get sick of the “smell the fear” crap, and have said so many times. I have made the point to my football (soccer) brethren many times in the past that if you stood in Melbourne in the middle of Winter and told them to “smell the fear”, they honestly wouldn’t have the foggiest notion what you’re talking about.
Basketball in Australia actually offers many lessons (although that is a different thing to saying that the A-League will necessarily go down the same route – it does have other factors on its side).
You must admit that the Victory are doing reasonably well in Melbourne – a market that the FFA initially thought would be tough to crack. But they were way wrong for two reasons:
1. there has always been a decent following for soccer in Melbourne (even if the fans also followed aussie rules at the same time); and
2. Melbourne people actually go to games, buy membership, etc.
Melbourne will never have more than two A-League teams, and therefore I see no problem with those teams co-existing with 9 AFL teams (if anything, those 9 will one day have to reduce to 7 or so).
I know I’m inviting trouble here, but I have no problem hearing why you find soccer painful to watch.
Dave said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
The1and only master
What reasons have you put up? That you reckon Football will head down the same path as Basketball? How so? You have just put up some assumptions on your part with no factual basis.
Pay TV figures for football are up on fox, check their website. Where’s your stats to say that it is due to increased subscription?
You raised the free tickets in your first post…but its ok for AFL to do it because…LOL they are/were a foreign code in Sydenee…isn’t this the game that made Australia?? Check with the AFL advertising mate they reckon it made Australia and now your telling me its a foreign code in our largest city!! Suppose AFL is a foreign code on the Gold Coast as well? Where else in Oz is it a foreign code?
Football can be compared to AFL in some aspects eg participation rates but as yet not in others such as attendances, TV revenue etc. Football is 4 years into its new phase and lets just see where we are in another 5-10 years…but by all means keep speculating and hoping it doesnt continue its rise.
Now feel free to outline why you think Sokkah is painful to watch…
Towser said | November 18th 2008 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Michael C
said
“When, instead, we should benchmark soccer with soccer.”
More or less what I said. I’m learning so much on the Roar.
Norm said | November 18th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
1 and only wanker
I’m sure that your reasons for finding soccer painful to watch will exactly mirror my reasons for finding AFL so painful to watch.
Pippinu said | November 18th 2008 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Norm
actually I’d expect the reasons to be different – they are, afterall, different games (with a few common elements).
Anyway, I for one would love to hear your reasons – I won’t take offence – cross my heart and hope to die.
Towser said | November 18th 2008 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Just a quick reality check on A-League crowds & anybody who still hasnt twigged (football or non football fans theres ignorance on both sides).
I’m telling some people what they already know,but for those that dont. Football operates in a world market for players. The better Leagues reflect the better crowds generally & theirs a sliding scale of attendances according to the standard of football on display. You can confirm this by looking at the A-League standard. Last year crowds reached an unatural high compared with football quality,this year fans like me said what have we got in front of us. We saw where its really at & many chose to switch back to watching the EPL on Fox.
This also happened in the J-League & MLS in their early years both have now settled on a reasonable crowd average after many years of operation. J-League(19,000) & MLS(17,000).
Given the population of this country & the geographical areas it plans to expand into in the future,I would be happy with an average of around 15,000 long term. Anything above that is not sustainable given the realities of competing in a world market for players.
The1and only master said | November 18th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
MC
Spot on. How you maintain such a level, balanced view on this site when surrounded by these passionate but void of fact soccer types is beyond me but credit to you.
Norm said | November 18th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Well 1 and only wanker hero worship of Michael C highlights your lack of self esteem and his denoument of intellect.
Dave said | November 18th 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
The1and only
Still waiting for the reasons? Or could it be you dont have any facts ?