By Etienne
November 11th 2008 @ 2:14am
Loading ...Super 14 tipping now live for sign-ups. Join now and invite your mates..
---------------
Thoughts on the South Africa vs Wales match
The experiment of playing John Smit and Ruan Pienaar at 3 and 10 was a success. They’ll need a few more games before a final verdict can be given, but their fist run was a definitive success.
Smit stood his ground at tighhead and still got through a lot of work in the loose. Pienaar controlled the game nicely from 10 and I though his tactical kicking was good.
What I liked about him was that he found touch when he needed to.
A lot of South African flyhalves of recent years have struggled with this, putting their teams under a lot of pressure by exposing them to counterattacks. He was also dangerous when deciding to run, almost scoring a try.
Some people might say that the Bokke were lucky to win this one. Their winning margin was less than the seven points resulting from Jean’s intercept try, after all.
But I disagree.
I thought this was a very good win. The Bokke were playing their first game on tour against a very strong Welsh side (probably the best Northern Hemispehere team at the moment), they had a few bad calls go against them, were down to fourteen men at a time when the Welsh were on fire, and they still managed to keep their composure and close the game out.
Hats off to you boys.
The Welsh may feel unlucky not to have won this game, but they have a lot to feel positive about. Their new Number 8, Powell, is a killer. And I hope they’ve learned their lesson at 10: pick James Hook (despite his intercepted pass), and bench Stephen Jones.
If the Welsh stick to their guns, I think they’ll get a Tri-Nations scalp soon enough.
Super 14 tipping now live for sign-ups. Join now and invite your mates.
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(44)
Loading ...
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 2:55am | Report comment
Pienaar’s debut was a storming success. I think he only made one (?) mistake all game. Smit went well although I would reserve judgement until the end of the tour simply because Gethin Jenkins has never been a punishing scrummager. Regarding the scrum I don’t think Mtawarira found it an easy ride against Adam Jones, he was rather inconspicuos in the loose. I think a lot of SA rugby fans have missed the point with Smit. He may well go on to be a very solid number 3 but with the 5 metre rule it is necessary to play the most punishing scrummagers available. A player doing a holding job is not a good long-term option.
I don’t think the referee was biased or poor.
van der Merwe said | November 11th 2008 @ 6:35am | Report comment
The referee certainly did make some strange calls. Like the time he awarded a 22 drop out instead of a 5 meter scrum when the Welsh player clearly carried the ball over, or allowing Martin Williams to come in from the side then penalizing his opposition. He also missed a number of forward passes.
In my opinion, Wales wouldn’t have been able to get so close if the Boks hadn’t squandered so much possession. I’m not sure whether the mindless kicking they fell into in the second half is influenced by the O’Neill ELVs or the lack of game plan, but man did they toss the ball away.
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 6:39am | Report comment
You could say the same thing about SA. SA would have been 7 points short had Hook been more conservative. It’s hard to make any speculations because we saw so little from SA in terms of attack.
TembaVJ said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:02am | Report comment
Benjamin your favorite JP Pieterson had a cracker of a match!
Habanna might has well been sitting on the side, he did nothing, the lad needs some ball and inspiration. Most of the players did not play to their potential.
The kicking is driving me mad, they have to do something with this law.
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:08am | Report comment
He had a very, very good game defensively, he actually appeared to seek out contact for the first time (that I have seen anyhow) but again we saw nothing from him with ball in hand, which may or may not have been his fault.
The way SA played was bizarre. It was the complete extreme from the ethos that PDV espoused during the 3N which means the tournament could now be a complete waste.
What can you do about the kicking? The LPG seem not to understand how tight and pressured test matches are. Rugby nis now a big business and winning is everything, absolutely everything. To that extent it is no surprise that the laws have been greeted with cautious and conservative play.
TembaVJ said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Both JP and Habanna saw very little of the ball which is a shame especially with a player like habanna. It could be the Welsh rush defense that cuts the feed to the wings?
The centers had more to do but they marked both JDV and Adi Jacobs knowing that Pienaars first start at 10 will not see him attack much with ball in hand. The rush defense seem to focus an arrow towards the centers. It frustrate the saffa attack… I could be wrong. Jantjies is so solid under the high ball we have not had a full back like that since the days of Andre Joubert but he lacked some attacking flair in that game… Especially with the centers under pressure.
Good coaching by Gatland, he is clearly a far better coach then quota Christ de puppet who I don’t think has any control over what he says or his players.(don’t know if ‘no control’over his players is a good thing or a bad thing)
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment
SA employ the rush as well and the Welsh back three carried a lot of ball which suggests that it comes down to intent. I would be inclined to suggest that PDV decided to play it tight but even in the 3N when he wanted SA to throw the ball about like confetti the two stayed on their wings. Perhaps he employs a system where he doesn’t like the wingers to come near the midfield? Bernard Laporte often played a system whereby he only allowed certainy players to play in certain parts of the pitch. I noticed that when Kankowski came on he was sweeping the back and caught quite a few deep kicks. Perhaps PDV doesn’t trust the pair?
van der Merwe said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Ja, not too sure who the coach is. It’s a tossup between the senior players and Dick Muir. It certainly isn’t Snorre, that’s for sure.
What do you think the team will look like next week? I would keep the same team; switch de Villiers for Steyn and Jacobs for Fourie and perhaps have Nokwe start.
TembaVJ said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:59am | Report comment
For this week id keep certain combinations get them fine tuned for England. Jean DV needs to play he is a monster, Id give Adi Jacobs a break and start Steyn off the bench behind Fourie.
I think dropping Habanna for a match will wake him up a bit, put Nokwe on 11 and reward JP for his good match by keeping him in the starting lineup. Kanko can start ahead of Spies, get Januarie in on 9 and bring the king of 9’s off the bench saving him for England.
Colin N said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Firstly I’ve never been a fan of Jacobs, but why is he ahead of Fourie. I know Fourie was out of the June test against Wales through injury but he was brilliant in the world cup and is a very silky smooth runner, who I believe is an out-standing and under-rated player.
Habana was again anonymous, but that might be down to PDV’s tactics as he use to often come off his wing during Jake White’s reign. Although, I don’t think Wales pushed the ball wide enough, both Williams and Halfpenny came off their wings to find work in midfield. Often Halfpenny was used during a scrum move, like Habana use to be during White’s reign (do you see what I’m getting at) and Williams was everywhere, apart from first-receiver really.
TembaVJ said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Colin I cant agree with you more, Fourie is a far better player then Jacobs. I have to say though that I was impressed with Jacobs during the 3N.
This coaching business has started a little thinking process in my head… What if Dick Muir is not really as good as people think he is, I know Puppet isn’t? What if Dick Muir’s success with the sharks was largely thanks to John Plumtree? Now we have 2 out of 3 useless coaching staff(it looks that way on the field). Yes Colin no matter what people in the south say about Jake White and his “boring game plan”, he is a far better coach then Dick and puppet put together and always had some tricks up his sleeve. Habanna and JP often came into the game, I remember times when they would both be on the same wing… Many tri’s score that way for the boks.
Unfortunately PDV as a quota coach has to select a prime amount of “colored” players. When Du Preez was injured he had Januarie at 9 but you cant deny Du Preez a spot in the team. Adi is good but not as good as Fourie but his color gets him selected ahead of Fourie.
Adi has heart though and reminds me of Gittue, the little man that has a go…
But this will be South Africa’s problem for many years to come. PDV will scrape along to the next world cup, winning only enough to keep him in the job (thanks to excellent players left to him by Jake) South Africa will get kicked out before the Semi’s. PDV will lose his job and the focus of politicians will change to something else. The Springboks will start building again, later start winning again and the politicians will start interfering again.
It’s a cycle, remember that when the boks are losing the politicians don’t care about quotas and emblems, its only when they win or look strong that they really care.
van der Merwe said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Colin, agree 100% about Jaque.
Ja, I think Dick really lost his marbles after he lost that S14 final. He just went crazy, rotating everything that move on two legs! Snorre needs to discard him and bring in Erasmus. It makes sense because Rassie’s team succeeds in playing the beautiful running game that Snorre wants.
TembaVJ said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Screw that VDM!!!
Rassie should take snorr’s job and snorr can become media liaison for the springboks!!!
Imagine how it would hurt Rassie to see Snorr take the credit? Nope Rassie will be the next coach, I don’t think he will work for Snorr…
Colin N said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
I might be quite controversial here but I enjoyed the way South Africa played in the last world cup. They played some great rugby in the pool stages, demolishing us (England). When it came to the knockout rounds, they did become a bit more conservative but I thought the way they dispatched with Argentina on the semi’s was superb. They pounced on every mistake, scored great tries after turnovers and they were very clinical, and it was a joy to watch. During the final, I didn’t really concentrate on how South Africa were playing the game, because I was too busy supporting England.
Guy Smiley said | November 11th 2008 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
This game was all about Wales and their inability to convert all those opportunities. SA merely did the basics well and never really functioned as a cohesive unit otherwise - they looked unfamiliar with each other when they had the ball in hand and off the pace. Defensively though they were superb. Wales made a right hash of this game and should have won by 5-10 - their dynamism in attack was at times sublime but amounted to no tries, apparently Gatland was furious with them after the game for throwing away this opportunity. NH teams do this far too often they seem to lack the killer instinct.
As for Fourie I have always admired his play - tough, intelligent, great balance and and eye for a gap plus that touch of arrogance. Jacobs has done very well but lacks the subtlety and nous of Fourie.
Etienne said | November 11th 2008 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
What I liked about this game is that it looks like Peter Div has arrived at the XV and the game plan that’ll make the Bokke challenge NZ as the No.1 team from now until the next RWC. All the players involved should still be around at the next RWC (Bakkies and Victor have both signed with the Bulls until 2011).
Don’t get me wrong, I think there’s still a lot of work to be done. The Bokke need to learn to concentrate and play for a full 80 min and not back off if they go ahead by 2 or more scores. The also need to be more clinical in the execution. But the foundations are there: an experienced, talented group of players; a strong captain figure; powerfull forwards; halfbacks who can play percentage rugby and control the game; strong defence and the ability to punish opposition with turnover ball. If they continue to build on that and work on their attack they’ll be very hard to beat. If….
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Wales butchered any chances that came there way, I agree with Guy Smilie, they should have won by at least 10 points…the Boks did the basics well and left it at that.
I thought the Welsh No.8 had a stormer, extremely difficult to stop with a first up tackle, good footwork, made Pierre Spies look pedestrian…Benjamin who is he, how has he been going in Magners League/Heineken Cup?
Colin N said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
The number 8 for Wales was Andy Powell, who’s been out for the last two years with injury and has only broke into the Cardiff Blues first team this season, due to the injury to Xavier Rush. He’s been playing exceptionally well in HC, ML and EDF-he absolutely murdered a very strong Leicester team with his powerful running.
He did have a very good game but my only criticism would be that he often took the ball on himself from the scrum and I thought the South Africans realised this and were quickly onto him whenever he got the ball. Even so, he often broke the first tackle pretty much every time, which was key. However, him being at 8 nulified the threat of Ryan Jones, who I didn’t see do anything of note throughout the game.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 8:41pm | Report comment
Colin N,
I thought Ryan Jones has put on a bit of weight, having said that my best memories of him were on 2005 Lions, but has he put on a few kgs?
I personally think the Welsh would benefit from the ELVs, they really should try running the ball a bit, and they have some talented backs.
Guy Smiley said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
If Powell plays like that for the rest of the November games and the 6N he will be a shoo-in for the Lions tour, he did everything Spies used to do but has a neat sidestep too. The more realistic side of me says that he simply caught the Boks napping as they knew next to nothing about him - if they played again maybe they’d pay him more repsect.
Overall though another lession in how SH teams are simply more professional, clinical, and clean.
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
I think if anything the complete opposite is true.
Australia were very unprofessional and error-ridden and SA offered literally nothing. They didn’t kick for corners and pressure the Wales lineout they didn’t get Habana or Pieterson to chase down kicks. It was bizarre. They just sat back and defended and even that wasn’t greatly successful because they missed 24 tackles. Lets not forget that Wales were missing 5 first xv starters. A win is a win but it was a worrying performance from SA.
Colin N said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
True Tah,
People have been saying that about Jones this season. What worries me (sort of-from a Lions perspective) is that he didn’t seem to make any impact physically and didn’t go through the work that Burger went through etc. He just seemed a bit out of it, for some reason.
I don’t really think the ELV’s will benefit the attacking teams if I’m honest, unless we use the Southern Hemisphere ones which is unlikely to happen, apart from at the scrum. If anything they benefit the team that have kickers that can kick it long. In the first-half of the South Africa-Wales game, it was because of Pienaar’s huge bot that they could get on the front foot. There were other factors but that was the main one IMO.
brad said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
I find it very strange that the Northern teams actually think that they can compete with the South. I guess Englands once off never to be repeated succes at RWC 2003 will haunt us forever. The NH teams will lose 90% of the time to the SH that is fact. Even Argentina are showing some grit these days and generally have a winning % over the scots and france. What the NH should do is look long and hard at their domestic structures and proffesionalism because quite clearly they are in a different league. Even their conditioning is poor Ryan Jones and the like look weaker and a bit fat when compared to the likes of Spies and Bakkies. Now I know that evry NH will bring up Fat dunning but he is an exception.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Colin,
if Powell stays fit and keeps playing the way he did, then yes he should be a shoo-in for the Lions.
Ill be watching the England v Wallabies game this weekend, and see how the English backrow performs before I make any rash decisions on the potential lions backrow.
Comparing Jones to Burger is a bit tough on jones, at times I dont think Schalla is made out of flesh and blood like the rest of us and is a freak, whereas Ryan Jones looks like he spends a bit of time propping up the bar outside Milennium.
The Welsh fullback, Mears played well too, dropped ball occassionally, but he looked dangerous when he got the ball.
Maybe the Aussies wont have it all their way after all.
Photon said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
True Tah
The Boks weren’t lucky, they should have won by mor points. Piennar dropped a try over the tryline, Fourie took a stupid tap and go off what must have been our only kickable penalty in the entire second half. Over and above this Mr Rolland decided to do his best to ensure a Welsh victory in the second half, his worst call being a 22 drop out for what should quite obviously been a five etre scrum, then sending off Jacque Fourie for legally ripping the ball then playing the ball through his legs, not to mention penalising the Boks for killing the ball but allowing Wales to do the same when they had possession. If anyone was lucky Australia were, Italy should have been 3 points up with 8 minutes to go.
Oh and Benjamin
As for five injuries, everybody in world rugby is carrying injuries to a certain extent, the truth is the Boks where well on their way to giving a accomplished performance prior to Mr Rolland stepping in fifty minutes into the game.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
brad,
Spies was overshadowed big time by Powell, the Welsh no. 8, also overshadowed by Kankowski when he came on.
Australia does not have a good away record against Poms anyway, Im sure Benjamin will pip up here, but we have loss more than we won since 2001 against the Poms in Twickenham…if anything, the domestic English game is far more successful than ours…last year the GP final drew over 80K, this year our Sydney club final drew a touch over 5,000.
Also France did beat los Pumas as well.
An ill-informed statement.
True Tah said | November 11th 2008 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
Photon,
the Boks never played anywhere near as good as they could have, they were never going to run up a cricket score like they did against us in Johannesburg.
They did the basics well and that was sufficient to win.
Fourie wasn’t on his feet when he played the ball, the ref made it quite clear to Smit that the next infringement would be a yellow card…maybe Fourie wasnt on the field, when Rollain told Smit this.
brad said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:09pm | Report comment
True Tah. ill informed statement? So you would put your head on the block and say that the NH teams can beat the SH teams? Wales have never beaten the All Blacks neither has Ireland Scots have beaten them once. Ireland/wales/scotland have beaten the boks only once each and i am sure that the Aussiies have better winning records overall as well. England and france are competative but will always lose more than they win and any win by the NH over the SH is considered an upset. The 80K that the GP gets for a final is only for a finla they average about 10,000 but since when is crwod attendance a measure of the players talent? Only an ill informed and basically blind rugby fan would dare think that the NH could ever dominate the south. they failed to do it in the last 100years. They need toseriously look at their proffesional structures is all im saying. And yes powell played briliantly and so does shane williams but 1 performance does not make you a SH chalemger.
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
“Im sure Benjamin will pip up here”
Tah, I heard an interesting sentence the other day.. “If you argue with fools, it’s hard from a distance to tell who is who”. Good luck to Brad I say, and Photon.
ohtani's jacket said | November 11th 2008 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
Brad,
Wales have beaten the All Blacks three times. Scotland have never beaten them. Ireland have beaten the Boks three times and Scotland four times.
Photon said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Bejamin
There’s also an expression which goes, “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent” You hurling personal abuse at me instead of putting forward arguments to counter what I said about Saturdays game is just a an indictment on you. But it doesn’t matter anyway, everything you say about the Springboks is just a thinly veiled attempt to tarnish the achievments of a proud rugby nation, so good luck to you too!! Hope the Aussies hand your beloved Poms a hiding on Saturday
Benjamin said | November 11th 2008 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
You’ll have to excuse me Photon, I didn’t mean to refer to you in the first point, only the second. I meant “good luck” to you as in I couldn’t be bothered to debate. Out of 3 blog sites you’re the only person to offer that view which I think is an indictment of you. I have to say… your violence expression is rather ironic.
Brad, it’s also worth noting that since 2000 France have won and drawn in SA which until this years 3N was better than Australia’s record in SA. Further, SA last won in France in 1998.
brad said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:10am | Report comment
check out http://www.pickandgo.info awsome site. All blacks vs Northern Hemisphere win % since begining of time = 83.2% Boks = 67.4% and Wallabies = 64.0% if that is not dominance then I am an idiot. Again all I am saying is that the NH needs to look at their proffesional setup. Are the guys properly conditioned? Perhaps they are playing to many games and thus spend less time in the gym preseason. Or are there too many foreigners in the league? should they rather move to a combination of synthetic and grass fileds so that they can run with the ball instead of grinding it out all afternoon. The dominance is nit just at test level but in sevens and junior level as well with most competions being won by SH teams. Maybe its the youth setup that is not producing quality proffesionals (this could be the reason for League and SH poaching).
Benjamin said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:22am | Report comment
The beginning of time is beyond irrelevant.
Why has every professional WC final been contested by a NH v SH team?
How did England win in NZ, SA and Australia this decade?
Why don’t the SH teams dominate every single autumn/spring tour?
Why are so many SH players so willing to leave the S14?
Benjamin said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:24am | Report comment
Ignore the above. I don’t have time and simply could not be bothered.
ohtani's jacket said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:31am | Report comment
Brad,
Europe has a long and rather historic tournament that far outweighs our own Tri-Nations competition and I’m not sure how much they particularly care about playing the Southern Hemisphere sides outside of Lions tours and World Cups. I think it’s “us” who are a little obsessed with playing “them”.
brad said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Q1 = True therefore see below
Q2 = Knockout tournament therefore pure luck as illustrated by New Zealand who have a 70%+ winning margin but only one cup (also NH have only won 1/6)
Q3 = Statistically they have to win at least once or twice every 100years
Q4 = yes they do
Q5 = money
SH vs NH 1998 - 2008 (proffesional era) = SH 62.8% win margin
Benjamin said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Just briefly… you’re far too postmodern for me so I’ll have to keep this short and sweet.
The WC is pure luck? I don’t think it is.
Australia have won once in SA this decade, England have won there once and France have won there once and drawn once. How can that be?
SA have not won in France since 1998. SA have won once at Twickenham in 10 years. SA have been beaten by Ireland in their past two appearences in Ireland. That hardly sounds like dominance.
Australia have won at Twickenham once since 2000. Ireland have beaten Australia 2 out of the past 3 times they have played. that doesn’t sound like dominance.
Yes. All players move to Europe for money.
Benjamin said | November 12th 2008 @ 1:50am | Report comment
… check. Australia have won twice in SA this decade.
Colin N said | November 12th 2008 @ 2:28am | Report comment
I think some people are defending our game too much (the NH game that is) and some are just being idiots, so I’ll try and put an even hand on it. There is no doubt that on ability and wins the top three SH teams deserve to be where they are in the rankings. However, if you take the three strongest teams in the NH, ie England, France and possibly Ireland and put up their win percentage over SH teams against it the other way round, I wonder what the stats would show. I’m not denying that the SH teams would have a higher win percentage, I’m just saying that it would be closer than some peope are suggesting.
As for the NH comps, we are prowd of the six nations, but there is no way that the respective countries don’t want to put one over on the SH teams. I would say that the six nations teams play with as much intensity in the AI’s than they do in the 6n’s, possibly even more.
True Tah said | November 12th 2008 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Brad,
as an Australian it pains me to say that our domestic game is nowhere near the English domestic game.
If you took away Super rugby, we would effectively be reduced to Sydney/Brisbane/Canberra club rugby, with maybe a state tournament.
With that in mind, we would struggle to beat the likes of Italy, and forget about competing with NZ, South Africa, England, Wales.
brad said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
Its actually amazing how the wallabies can compete. It also shows by virtue of the longevity of their senior players that maybe the rest of the world do play to much rugby.
Benjamin said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
Perhaps you should do some research on the ages of the England teams of the past two WC finals Brad.
True Tah said | November 12th 2008 @ 8:12pm | Report comment
brad,
if you’re happy with mediocrity, the lobby for Australia to pull out on SANZAR and allow the Wallabies to play club rugby.
After a few years, a 30-20 over Italy will seem like a distant memory.