By Steve Kaless
November 13th 2008 @ 4:34am
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Do the Kiwis need an Aussie-free Warriors?
They face each other on Saturday for the right to challenge for the Rugby League World Cup, but neither England nor New Zealand would go into a match against Australia with anything resembling confidence. Perhaps the relevant question now then is, what can be done to improve these sides internationally?
Both of these teams have experienced a few false dawns in the past, but the reality is that neither is currently able to give Australia any sort of real competition.
So does something drastic need to happen?
It is not about making the Aussies weaker, but looking at ways to bring their opponents up to their level.
England has toyed with the idea of stricter quotas for players in order to encourage more development, but this has been countered by arguments that superior players raise the level of others.
As I have said in the past, arguments always tend to come from those with a vested interest, so we won’t dredge them up again, suffice to say the England’s RLF are looking to bring in tighter quotas, so hindsight will again tell us who was right all along.
Surprise, surprise.
However, if quotas are about developing the international game and not about stopping a player drain from the NRL, should one be brought in for the Warriors?
You would think that the arrival of the Warriors would have been a real boost for the Kiwis national squad, but thirteen years on, it is hard to see any significant improvement.
The majority of New Zealand’s best players tend to be playing for Australian NRL clubs or be Australians who have satisfied residence permits in the land of the long white cloud - grandmothers not withstanding.
The Warriors are currently getting key input from Steve Price, Ian Henderson, Michael Witt, Wade McKinnon and Michael Luck, just to name a few.
Is this helping the New Zealand national side?
It might seem a bit radical and might even be labelled as racist, by those who fail to understand the idea, but I have been surprised that the concept of limiting the number of imports allowed by the Warriors is yet to have been raised.
They could even sweeten the deal with a few salary cap concessions and everything could suddenly become very rosy.
Even if you could get the New Zealanders playing in the English Super League back and playing for the Warriors, we could finally see the national side playing to their potential so often promised but rarely delivered.
Another area that needs to be addressed, and one that would probably be a lot easier to resolve than the one just mentioned, is to get an international consensus on the ‘wrestle’.
England looks to have been seriously ambushed by Australia and New Zealand with the wrestle in the ruck and have employed a specialist coach this week in order to combat the problem.
Whether it is enough to turn around the result against the Kiwis and get closer to the Kangaroos is a whole another question. But I’d argue that the England team would benefit from the rules of the NRL and ESL being closer aligned in the longer term.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be all one way, and a little give and take might be what is needed to make it worthwhile. But it would seem to make a lot of sense.
Whatever the answer, it is certain that even the most ardent fans of the Kangaroos would love to see their side pushed more regularly by their rivals.
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There are certain sentences a rugby writer believes he will never write and one them was (notice the past tense): 'Al Baxter monsters Andrew Sheridan...'
oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:45am | Report comment
I agree with raising the standard of the other international sides, what we are forgeting at the momment is the simple fact that oz has some exceptional players, the kiwis are starting to find some also, Vatuvie and Jeremy Smith along with Greg Eastwood. Give them a chance to shine. Another 5 years should see massive improvements for England also, this has been awake up call for them, i am sure they will learn some hard truths from this tournament. I think France will also improve as they now know that they need to step up to compete at the higher level. I have said this once before and will say it again, even the minnow nations have shown exceptional ball play and skills, they are all moving in the right direction. The team that has really stamped their athority to me has been PNG,. What passion they have shown.
oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:54am | Report comment
At the moment NO, they dont need a aussie free inviroment, they learn from each other and get better off each other. The skills of the island players has risen so high over the last 5 years, thanks to having the guys like Price and Wiki to show them the way. I can remember the rabbill that the warriors once were, good exciting play but no grunt when it come to beating the aussie teams, now they have balance and it shows, not only with the warriors but also other NRL teams.
Its perfect the way it has become, and with so many more young Kiwis coming through it will only get better for them now, the under 20 toyota cup warrior side showed us some future talent they are now going to reap the rewards. Time Gentlemen. Give them Time.
The Link said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Steve, the solution isn’t necessarily quotas for the existing NZ NRL side, but bringing in a 2nd team. I always liked the concept of the Wellington bid - Gallop, its time for the Orcas
Kevin Cohen said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
geez oikee, that is a gem “I think France will also improve as they now know that they need to step up to compete at the higher level.” since when is knowing that you are not good enough going to make any difference dude? Simple fact, there are not enough players in any of those countries except Aus, England and perhaps PNG. So the challenges for ENgland and PNG is better identfying, coaching and developing talent but for all the other countries the challenge is to attract more players which is something that hasnt happened in 100 years of RL…
oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Funny that Kevin, giving that in france League was once the dominate code. Do some reseach dude. Give them time and like i have said, they will step up.
Kevin Cohen said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Oikee - that was 60 years ago dude. Now the sport is a minor sport with about 1/20th of the money and supporter base than Union - whatever the reason. It aint gonna change, I promise you that.
sunshinecoaster said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
The biggest thing that hurts Rugby League in New Zealand is the English super league,the Kiwis lose endless talent to England because of the money being so good,unlike alot of Australian players the Kiwis lose there players at the peak of there game
But at the end of the day Steve there just isn’t enough talent in New Zealand,everybody plays the other code,the biggest hope for New Zealand rugby league to become strong is for all its talent to be playing in the NRL,then we would see a more powerful Kiwi team
Yet again it all comes back to the salary cap
the three year resident rule should be extended to five years,that would probably clean things up
oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Big call there Kevin, so what you are saying is league wont grow in France. ? Its moving along nicely in the south of france thank you kevin. And they have a good coach so the dragons will make some more waves. Thanks for your support their kev.
oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Hpoefully there will be some good changes to the international teams for next year. And the island teams might get a origin type game off the ground, if this happens there is a good chance that the game can really start growing. The downturn in the economy might not help, then again people might be looking for cheaper nights out. I would quite happily go to a tonga samoa game at suncorp. Origin is getting nearly impossible to get a seat, and with only one game it can open up oppurtunities for more games.
Kevin Cohen said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
no worries Oikee, just the way I see it. Player numbers and supporter numbers are very low (1/20th of RU). Rugby League only got off the ground in France because the IRB kicked the French RU out in the 1930s. This crap about the Vichy government etc is just that. RL in France was at its peak well after the war in the 50’s and has been in decline since the 70s.
Rufus said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
C’mon dudes. League is the greatest game of all but shit no-one outside of NSW, QLD, Yorkshire, Lancashire, PNG and pockets of NZ actually gives a shit about it. It’s not glamarous, aspirational etc, its the working mans game and as such will never appeal to the corporate world. Sad but true
westy said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Kevin Cohen…..that is not quite true. The 13 game took of in France in the mid 20’s with a surprising popularity in urban areas.
By the late 20’s it was dominant and as you say consolidated inthe 30’s with working class support. Please note French rugby had been introuble for some time as it was basically professional and made a mockery of rugby,s shamateurism .
French Rugby authorities manipulated the Vichy Government and compulsory acquired the stadia grounds and facilities of league never to be returned.
You are correct that after the War two resistance leaders formerly rugby men could not quite stomach what rugby did and with the assistance of a few wealthy individuals sponsored some ex rugby players to play league in France in the 50’s. The cost of hiring ” rugby ” grounds was prohibitive and this final spark petered out especially when French rugby resumed its professional payment system in the 60’s. Always love the line French rugby went professional in 1995.
Rugby is the international game. It is my game But in Australia it is a boutique game played by a few. Sadly rightly or wrongly it is or is perceived as not an egalitarian game . We always blame league for our situation but we contributed heavily to our predicament and the ordinary punter voted with their feet.
Rufus …….it is precisely because it does not appeal to the corporate world that I give it some begrudging respect.It is probably why it has so many more juniors then rugby. When some rugby people attack league they impliedly attack ordinary Australians. I suppose 4th place in Australia is not to bad. We are in front of grass hockey.
We must also be careful about some lines we push. Scotland is ranked 9th in the world. It has only 10000 senior players. In its squad it has 7 English born.2 Australians. 1 New Zealander and a Zimbabwean. It does not bother me but we want to be a bit careful. Do not look to closely at Wales either.
ohtani's jacket said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
Well y’know there’s a lot of New Zealanders who think there should be more Aussies in the Warriors, less Islanders in Auckland rugby and more whiteys in the All Blacks. The reality is the Warriors have tried *everything* in their checkered history — Kiwis, Aussies, rugby converts, Super League guys. I remember seeing a foldout of every former Warrior player. It was hilarious.
The Answer said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Nice one Rufus, ten points for the originality of your thoughts. At least you included some areas outside NSW and QLD so maybe we are getting through.
However, fair is fair and your point raises the problem for both Union and League.
Of course you could pretty much toss in Italy, and South Africa to that list and same applies for Union. Rugby likes to think it is a some global sport but sadly it is propped up by Anglo expat communities is countries in which the domestic population cares little for. Do you think the Chinese really gave a stuff about the Bledisloe? More just a night out for investment bankers in Hong Kong and a junket for those from Aus.
I laugh when I read some of the countries rugby claims to have in it fold, when the comp actually consists of some ageing expats playing for a subbies team, the Persian Gulf for example.
Both sets of egg chasers have a long way to go to bust out of the colonies, the difference might be one deludes themselves to think they already have.
Steve Kaless said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Westy,
You raise some good points and are certainly correct about the Scottish and Welsh teams, however I’d argue it is certainly an improvement from last time we did this world cup thing which is a good thing.
Kevin Cohen,
While rugby league in France is certainly not as good as it once was, it is probably a slightly outdated argument to say it is still in decline.
Rufus,
“It is not aspirational or glamourous” What the hell are you talking about, has this blog been overtaken by philosophy students?
Lanky said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
The Answer - your comment “Of course you could pretty much toss in Italy, and South Africa to that list and same applies for Union” is ridiculous, Union is the national game in Wales, NZ and is huge in SA. It is also fairly substantial (in terms of organised competition, player numbers and history) in many other countries such as Argentina, Canada, Japan, USA, Romania, even Zimbabwe and Namibia. And of course it is way bigger than League in England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. So do me a favour, pull the other one. At the 2003 rugby world cup in Aus, Namibia v Ireland got a bigger attendance than Aus v NZ at the 2008 RLWC! You cannot compare the 2 games internationally.
Katipo said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Hey the answers,
Having actually lived and worked in Hong Kong I can tell you that the local Chinese do play rugby and they love the Hong Kong 7s. In fairness, the Bledisloe would be of novelty value, but league isn’t even on the menu in Hong Kong.
By the way, what happened to the South African, Welsh, Lebanon, Argentinian, Italian and USA rugby league teams? These countries were the promised land of leagues global expansion plan a few years back. Remember when the Kangaroos played the USA and the Daily Telegraph said league was going to go ballistic in America. Did it? Didn’t Wales make the semi finals of the last RL world cup. Why aren’t they in this one?
Is league really still growing in the developing countries and if so, at what rate? What is the growth in player participation on the ground in those countries? How are the league word cup TV viewing ratings going in those countries? I’m enjoying the RLWC for interests sake but I’d be interested to know if league has realisticl growth potential outside of it’s traditional territories or not.
What are the facts about leagues participation levels in countries like the USA, Argentina and South Africa?
Steffy said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
“Didn’t Wales make the semi finals of the last RL world cup. Why aren’t they in this one? ”
They didn’t qualify
Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:16pm | Report comment
Oikee & Steve
Frank Stanton in the Telie today said only two at best of the current squad would make an all time best ARL team.
Oikee you said in an earlier post “what we are forgetting at the moment is the simple fact that oz has some exceptional players” ………. but I would argue that the 86 side IMO was the best and so was the amount of general talent…. but each to their own opinion about the best side ….. and players was Joey Johns the best ever IMO it was Fulton …… my point is RL all over is struggling to get and keep some of the play makers it once took for granted.
With union going professional thereby not only stopping a player drain to RL ……. but in many ways RL is leaking players to RU these days. Further with many of footballs best going to Europe in large numbers from the early to mid 90’s add the recent development of the A-League, the rise of the Socceroos and football introduction of an national Under 14 team, with each state having an under 14 team from which to choose the national team…. many play makers who would have previously crossed to RL are not doing so anymore.
The football impact has not had time to make a real impact yet …. but tell me a RL team that would not want to have Tim Cahill / Brent Emerton / Lucas Neil / Vinney Griller etc. Essentially I am saying all codes need those naturally gifted juniors who can play at a very high level in a number of sports. Would / could RL keep or get from another codethe future, Matty & Joey Johns, John Brass, Matthew Ridge, Russel Fairfax , Ray Price, Andrew Endinhison (spelt wrong sorry) etc, my guess is no they would stay in RU & Football.
RL has many challenges ahead, IMO getting the playmakers and thus those who put bums on seats and in front of TV’s will be a major part of RL long term success or failure. The youth league is a good start how you go about it I have no idea, but it will be a major part of RL’s future and as I see it one RL is currently loosing. My example are the following players all very young all I believe 5 years ago would be playing RL these are real gun players …… Matthew Bridge / James Holland / Matthew Simon / Nathan Burns / Robert Kurise / Tim Oar.
Steve how do you see this position RL finds itself in which did not exist 10 years ago,- that is competition for the best juniors in NSW & QLD from RU & Football.
Katipo said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Steffy,
Sorry, you are correct, it was actually the 2000 world cup that wales made the semis.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/rugby-league/wales-hit-form-in-cruise-to-semifinal-624068.html
Again I ask, how has the Welsh game evolved & grown since then, why aren’t they in this one?
netrug said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
Actually, league has expanded in the USA, now fielding 10 teams in their national competition.
South Africa Rhinos have just treturned from a tour of England. Unfrtunately, it was not very successful. The Sa national competition fields 20 teams from all provinces.
Lebanon has a five team competition and just sent a virtual youth team to Moscow to play Russia in the Euro-Med Cup, only to be thrashed 80-0 by Russia.
Serbia, who played league foe 15 years in the 1950-60s have returned to league but was beaten by Russia and Lebanon in the Euro-Med Cup.
In the European Cup, the newly formed Italian team beat both Germany and the Czech Republic. Germany easily beat the Czechs.
The Netherlands and Georgia played in the RLWC qualifiers and the Dutch are still struggling to field teams and the game has folded in Georgia.
In Estonia, league is the only game played whilst it is also on a par with Rugby in Latvia. Ukraine fields one team in the Russian competition. Howver, the strong Russian national league is in trouble as two teams switch to Rugby. one in St Petersburg and the other in Kazan.
There are effots to get league into Greece, Malta and Portugal by ex-pats living in Australia.
The RLEF is making a push to get league revived in Morocco and a development team has been sent to the United Arab Emirates.
Small groups are trying to establish the game in Norway, Sweden and Argentina but the progess is very minimal. A group called Catalonia say the game ihas arrived in Spain but really it is a French based club.
There is a team called the Samurais in Japan but has never expanded.
I was impressed by the Fijian so far but do any of the players actually play in Fiji? They all seem to play in Australia. I believe there are only 500 players in Fiji.
France, to me has been a basket case during the current tournament and am still out to think that they will improve. Maybe a second team in the Super league might help.
So league is alive around the world but whether on its last gasps or ready for an explosion still remains to be seen.
Katipo said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Hi netrug,
The Japanese traditional game of ” Go” has several players in New Zealand.
So what you are saying is that league is of little more than novelty value in countries outside of Australia, in fact it is insignificant in all those countries that you mention relative to their populations.
netrug said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
In the UK, league now has competitions in Ireland, Wales and Scotland.
Ireland has 15 teams in their competition, 14 from the Republic and one in Northern Ireland and is quite strong
Wales has an eight team league but it is not all that strong.
Scotland also runs an eight team amateur competition and some say league is stronger in Glasgowthan Rugby.
However, the problem in these three places is that any good player soon finds his was into an English Super league team and this limits home development.
Katipo said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:51pm | Report comment
So Wales made the semi-finals of the 95 and 2000 RLWC and now they have 8 teams in their entire country. Isn’t that a bit disappointing for them?
Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
Netrug
I think RL has a huge future or should I say huge potential ……. like all business the ability of it’s management team to react and adjust to circumstances will determine RL future ….. at present the ARL and the management of the RLWC have showed they are reasonably good …. but with News in control of the two main competitions in the NRL & Superleague can News management act in RL interest if that is not in News interest ? ? ? this is a major concern as I see it.
Steffy said | November 14th 2008 @ 12:08am | Report comment
“Again I ask, how has the Welsh game evolved & grown since then, why aren’t they in this one?”
Wales didn’t didn’t qualify for this one. The Celtic Crusaders will, from next, year be a fully professional rugby club playing in the Super League.
JimC said | November 14th 2008 @ 3:21am | Report comment
Katipo
Can’t let your comments on the Chinese ‘love’ of the HK 7s go unchallenged.
I’ve been to 4 this decade. The vast majority of attendees are expats from HK and elsewhere in Asia.
The only chinese are sixth formers from the international schools, the Heneiken girls, and some very angry looking cops.
The answers description of rugby union development is spot on.
Stop spouting propaganda.
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Weather people who like union and want to bag league for whatever reason is fruitless, according to union it is already a world game, get on with it then, league is growing and will keep growing, like we have seen by comments from Fiji , union is still trying to squash league in places all around the world, the french are still stealing league players from the local comps, but i will say this, super league is going to become the premier comp in the U.K. With great aussie talent into the game over the next 5 years it will be must see veiwing. Guys like Croker, eastwood, stosik and ryles is going to toughen up the sport, also with the injection of our best players will take the super league to another level. I really dont mind having our best end up in super league, why,? because i know our NRL will replace this talent as it does with the likes of Gasnier and Williams, now long forgoting in our code.
Matt said | November 14th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Let’s be honest. The only thing league has going for it in terms of potential growth is the simplicity of play compared to Union.
Both Rugby codes WERE considered Winter sports, whereby they compete directly. Except now, in the NH, it has become a summer code and thus is avoiding having to try and compete with Football or Union. Would we be seeing the existance of the Catalans Dragons and Celtic Crusaders (who should probably swap their team names given their geographical locations and national histories) if League had remained a winter code? I’d suspect the 13 man game would have been truely on it’s knees as it struggled to compete with the burgeoning money of the 15 man game there.
League is always going to find it hard to grow when directly competing with Union, due simply to the money available globally. It is better off to continue to leverage off Union’s traditional appeal and remain a derivative of the 15 man game (more action, more simple etc).
The money in Union, now that it has become professional, is MASSIVE compared to league. In Australian and England there are two sustainable competitions of note. Everywhere else except for PNG it is a fringe game that leverages off the back of Unions similar skillset. New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, Ireland, France, Scotland. If Union didn’t exist in these nations then it is VERY likely that League would be even less than it is there now. In fact, most of those countries listed above (Scotland, Ireland, Samoa, Tonga) still draw their league players from the bigger league playing nations (Australia, England, NZ). This might well answer Katipo question of why didn’t Wales (who actually have some genuine growth, unlike my Movember efforts) didn’t make the RLWC08. Simply they were beaten by teams who were full of England B players.
Previously, as stated, League and Union grew globally off the back of Expats from nations who played the game back in their homeland. For Union, this happened mainly in the first half of last century, where Commonwealth countries took up the oval ball code.
The only problem for Leagues growth now is that these days, spreading the word requires global exposure and money more than the old expat colonisation. The only expats taking the code to new places are Australians expats or Australian migrants, into places like Lebanon.
Also, most nations who give it a go can’t differentiate between the two codes and many don’t even know there is a difference. Some nations, like Russia, started of playing Union but switched to League when they saw a commercial potential of the then professional game. However, rugby’s move into professionalism has eclipsed Leagues potential earnings and has also opened up far better networks for commercialism and advertising. Essentially Union offers more. Since then, most of the League teams in Russia have switched back to Union, which now has a professional 8 Team comp and is starting to perform at the top tier (seen here: http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/qualifying/news/newsid=2027556.html#russia+marks+bold). This marks a clear period where the financial lure of League from Union is no longer and nations wanting to take up an Oval ball code are far better of (and more likely) to play with 15 players per side. You just have more chance of getting funding and finding fellow players worldwide. The scope for league is SO much smaller than Union now that it is better off not wasting it’s limited money in trying to compete with the inevitable and to simply stick to it’s guns (NRL, Superleague and Origin).
Union has too much money and players to be usurped in any nation and no propaganda can hide a code a wash with corperate money and ambitous plans for expansion. Not to mention the simple amateur concept of the game of Union whereby kids of all sizes can have a go and the sport (until the ELVs) was designed for amateur fun. This is contrasted with League which has evolved based on the premise of making the sport more entertaining and luctrative at the top level for the pro players. My personal experiences of amateur league in NZ were of big polynesian kids shouting ’smash the white guy’ and of half the games ending with 20mins to go due to the violence descending into a complete brawl.
Put simply, in NZ, it is not a sport for the family or for fun. It is seen as a violent and basic cousin to Union with the novel idea of having a single club team playing in the NRL, which is still considered a very popular and strangely familar comp (most guys I know still have a favourite NRL club). So, for this reason, I would suggest that the Kiwis could do with more players in Aussie NRL teams. But I think the Warriors have performed more consistantly with the mixing of Aussie guys. What would be useful is a second popular Kiwi based team, but I don’t know whether their is the support base of money for it. The Orcas would definitely be the best bet, but then you’d be competing with the Hurricanes, Lions and Phoenix in a city of about 380,000. A second team would give the game more exposure but then you’d still be struggling to maintain a consistent support base once the novelty wears off. Just ask the Football Knights, Football Kings and now likely the Phoenix. NZers love winners as much as anyone else, and they win at rugby union better than any other sport.
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Agree with you about “they love Union” matt , new zealand need to win a world cup. Maybe if they lose this next one it might change things over there. Wait and see, yes russia may have teams changing to Union, if they dont make the next Union world cup then you will probably see the teams change back to league, after all the Challenge Cup is the more prestegious game for them to win apart from Union world cups. As for the second New zealand Team, yes i think this idea has been squashed by the NRL because of the very reason you have mentioned, not enough people live that area.
As for the warriors they are doing fine, no need for another team as the kiwis can ply there trade in the NRL teams. I have mentioned before that we need a feeder team for these other island players, ( Fiji, Cook Isalnds etc ) and maybe the same for the PNG sides. At least we have seen this come to light after holding this tournament, which is one good thing to come out of this. Nobody really is bigging this tournament up, quite the oppisite but we have made a start, its all up-hill from here.
Lanky said | November 14th 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
something I read that adds to the comments above - apparently there are only 500 league players in Fiji, compared with about 80,000 Union. Most of the players who make up the Fiji league national team (and Samoa and Tonga) learned and were exposed to League in Aus / NZ - not at home.
As for league having 10 teams in the USA - there are something like 2,000 Union clubs with about 100,000 players!
Fact is I see League as the NRL. Yes its nice to play NZ and the Lions from time to time but for me the highlight is SoO, not test football because it really isnt competitive. Perhaps bring NZ and Pacific Islands into origin - that would be good!
I think the public agree with me - they vote with their feet. Test match league doesnt draw big crowds, however much some want to expand the game globally. Money talks.
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Hey oikee - just going back a couple of posts:
1. If Williams and Gasnier are ‘long forgotten’ then how come do you remember them?
2. are you suggesting, when you say that super league will become “the premier comp in the UK”, that it will surpass football?
And going back further…
3. you say you’d be happy to go to a Tonga v Samoa game at Suncorp… I thought (from other debates) that you were only interested in major powerhouse countries not back-waters? Or have I missed something major and is Tonga more of a power-house in the world than say Japan?
Koala Bear said | November 14th 2008 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Millster,
I can remember Gasiner, Raper, Fulton, and Beetson (not all in the same Roo team at the same time) they all played in amazing touring Australian Roo teams; that’s why the ARL is going backwards at the rate of knots; as well as the opposition; even faster; as they just don’t produce players of that quality anymore .. It just seems to me that the ARL is in decline and Gus, Sterlo, Matty, and even Fatty have said so much.. No wonder Sonny Bill split the scene; he saw the writing on the wall … Not that I agreed with what he had done …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
KB - re Williams I’m not so dark. I think it says more about the stupidity of not having a mature player transfer system with transfer fees between League clubs, and also for League-Union transfers. Aside from that its a free world and as long as there are recovery provisions in various contracts which people adhere to if they walk then let them do as they please. I thought it was all a big circus over nothing personally.
Koala Bear said | November 14th 2008 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Millster,
That was pointed out in no uncertain terms by Gus Gould who had a lot to say about David Gallop’s stupidity with the out come being only a breach of contract that was resolved in the end… Until the ARL get rid of Gallop and replace him with Gus the ARL will continue to spiral downwards … 
indeed it was … David Gallop under pressure with no leg to stand on… He certainly made the ARL look like a bunch of Queensland Hicks…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
You mean replace him with Guus surely…
And maybe change the shape of the ball and a few rules about use of hands while we’re at it…
Lanky said | November 14th 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
why on earth would Union ever agree to a transfer system with League? For 100 years League stole Union players with no recompense!
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
Yes to all 3 millster. I do remember those 2 guys, its only been 3 months, and yes super league will be the number 1 sport in england even above soccer, and yes tonga is a bigger power-house than Japan, they cant play rugby for shite, any more questions. As for you K.B i thought you were crossing the border back into your own state, you back already.
The aim of this mass gathering is to expand, all i see is how many players play union here and there, big deal, against 80 thousand union players a bunch of players from 500 strong have made a semi final. So from this any team in the world who has 500 players from a local comp can make it onto the world stage.
What i see is exactly what happened with soccer england, a domestic comp plying there trade to the world and as you all know this was how they have expanded around the globe. The reason why league will make it faster is we already have 2 reallly good top class comps Super league, NRL , all we need is a good comp in say Russia or America and the game can expand, The only reason you 2 guys make comments is because you would hate to see this happen. Get over it boys, you and i know that the A-league wont over-take league anytime soon, maybe never if we start singing at the games like the shark supporters are doing..
Millster i am allowing for age with you, give you time to adjust, but K.B you really should know better, I still are not sure if you just knock the game because your scared of reality. Either way i have read your post Millster about that drink next monday, would love to catch up with you but wont be in town. I am heading down over the week-end so will only be their over-nite. (sat mass gathering semi.)
But will take a rain-check on the drink for another time. As for your comments about it being a one horse race, just proves to me you know squat about league, i will reserve judgement after the final hooter, by no means are the aussies certainties to lift the cup, new zealand can beat them, england, not sure, i think they have to many good players missing. We will see, i dont mind watching people wipe egg off there face, let this be your leason for future reference. Dont get me wrong i am with the kangaroos, but for the good of the game the others will rise. Now this sounds like fairy-tale bullshite to you guys, and i expect plenty of flak back at me, but i will put my neck on the line for the sake of league. And that same passion is what the game is about, K.B one last thing, its been harder for you i know, a cockroach living here in queesland for the last 3 years
Oh the shame of the Blue Jersey.
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Oikee - love your work buddy but on the responses to the 3 questions above you really are on some very serious mind-altering drugs.Especially on the 3rd, I just laugh and laugh that you determine a ‘powerhouse’ or a ‘real sporting nation’ by whether they play RU (a minor code) or RL (a code not even on the radar). Its as stupid as if someone determined powerhouse countries as those who played decent badminton.
Going down your post, if a team drawn from only 500 players can make a semi, its far more likely to mean that the semi is shit quality rather than the team being extra good. This encapsulates my whole problem with small codes and comparing a win in them to a win on a true world stage like football or - to a lesser extent - union. You have just demonstrated how meaningless it is to make a semi-final in your code through your own words. Pretty creaky, crappy world stage that must be if its so easy to hop on it…
On your third para are you saying that the EPL is the only top class comp in the world of football? How about Serie A? La Liga? Bundesliga? Ligue 1? Dutch Eridivise? and then a touch lower down the Scottish, Belgian, Swiss, Russian, Romanian leagues? the MLS? the J-League? the K-League? the Mexican League? the Brazilian and Argentinian leagues? the growingg - and rich - middle eastern leagues? So sorry mate we already have a dozen or more top (or near top) class comps spread the world over whereas you have one suburban league in Australia and another which represents a tiny corner of England and is not even in the slightest a major sport there. No comparison; even having to write this out is laughable.
And finally, if Australia don’t lift the cup is will be a national disgrace. We are the only country in the world - small as we are - where some decent proportion of the population gives a shit about the game at all.
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
See you are being ignorant again Millster, now you always call me ignorant for the things i say, do you call new zealand a power-house nation.? In rugby Union it is, a measly 4 million there. If you said to any person around the world that they were not, you are the fool. So a small nation like Fiji can become a power-house by rep alone, lets not dissmiss this.
Now the EPL as you say is not the only league, true but back in the 70’s it was the only one being telecast to oz. All those other comps you mention dont rate here, you know that , i know that, there importance is only in their country, the EPL is where all the good players head, for the dollars, same applies to super league and NRL.
Your last comment is laughable, England, New Zealand and Australia have been at it for 100 years, your the only one who seems to not understand this, but as i mentioned in my previous post i understand the way league works, so i have total faith in the system, and the real gods. Not the greedy gods that you protest too. Dont take it personally, it will make sense to you once the Mass gathering is over. Then you can sit back and enjoy your a-league. I could be wrong. If i am wrong i will never have another bad thing to say about any code. Promise.
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
NZ is not and never will be a powerhouse. Being good at one code (union) and having the odd decent player in a range of other sports is something that a number of countries can achieve. Is Pakistan a powerhouse because they dominate the game of squash and are top-class at field hockey too? Yes we have a traditional rivalry with NZ and it makes them a fraction more important to us, their neighbours. But that does not equate to them being a ’sporting nation’ or a ‘powerhouse’. They are just another little country that happens to have a couple of common sports with us.
Umm… Serie A includes AC Milan, Inter, Juventus, Roma… some of the most famous clubs in the world with the cream of the worlds best at them including Ronaldinho, Kaka, Seedorf, Viera, Del Piero. La Liga includes Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevillia, Deportivo - all also with a line-up of stars that would make your eyes water. Need I go on to the other leagues? The other comps rate here to anyone who even has the foggiest clue about quality sport. In any case I totally reject the notion that EPL is the only magnet for the best players. It is one of them for sure, but there are other absolutely amazingly high quality alternatives, and you are showing a total lack of understanding of world football in your post.
You would need 4 or 5 NRL standard comps and then about 15 super-league standard comps spread across multiple continents to even have a chance of being in the same ballpark as football in the next half century.
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
I think oikee that you don’t understand my approach.
I feel like you start with the games we play in Oz and then look for other countries that play those games at some decent level, then ignore the rest of the world. In doing so you forget the fact that most of the games we play are minor games with limited participation and not that relevant to any major countries (maybe except the UK).
I see it the opposite. Take the list of countries with biggest population, economies, development, and cultural (including sporting) power in the world. So USA, the major western European countries (UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc), Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Brazil, Argentina… and I start with the view that any decent world competition has to include a significant number of those nations. Then I look for what sports or pursuits we play against such nations. I come up with 2 at the top of the list - football and tennis. Union is also there-abouts, at a slightly lower level but with a reasonable spread of big countries playing at a decent level.
So when you speak of NZ and Tonga and Fiji, see why I laugh it off. Sure they are great little island countries, with a few good proud players. But would you ever define a ‘world’ of competition by them? I think not.
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
For crying out loud Millster, read my posts properlly, i said back in the 70’s we did not give a rats F*%&^$ king arse about the other comps. Yes today we have Fox and get all the top league comps, and yes your right about those good players coming through in the spanish league. What i am mearly trying to say is that we have 2 f*&&^%king comps that people enjoy, alright, maybe not you but other people do. Thats all. And your a goose if you dont think The all-blacks are a power-house, even the Japs realise this. Grow up. God how old are you, 2.
Now forget about economy’s for a minute and lets just talk about which countries really make a difference in sport. OZ yes oz, we are recognised on a world stage because like i keep telling people we punch above our weight, Olimpics, people see this all around the world and look up our name and find out we only support 20 mill. So us, and UK, most powerfull country in the world last milliniem, USA, agreed, and Russia of course, i see they tested a new nuke recently, probably to kill just people without taking out cities. And asia, which you keep telling me and i realise this, so we do have europe also which includes france. Now you know as well as me we have league in all these countries except maybe asia, if you call Lebanon part of that then they are represented. Not huge but a presense in all.
And my last post said a measely 500 and you can get league off the ground. But as you tell me soccer has thousands so why the constent attacks on league is anyone’s guess. You frightened some poor countries might get paid for playing the game. Get this through your head Millster and try to remember it, not everyone is good at soccer, whos paying the other guys.
Millster said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
Hey oikee its Friday and we should have that beer - as a peace offering. I do like your passion buddy. And will enjoy being in Brisbane on Monday, been a while since I was allowed into QLD
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Just read your last post, agree with you, but league has not had the exposure that Union and soccer has enjoyed, why knock a sport for trying, because we are aussies probably, look i know that league is nowhere compared to other sports, but giving the fact that we are trying, is maybe the aussie way. Who knows.
I have had simalar arguements with Union supporters for years, wealth in codes are nice to have, when you have to do it tough is hard. This is why i support league, not because i am fanatical , simply because it never gets a fair go, all the reports are put-downs, one day i would like to see it humming along without any support needed.
And your last point i do see what you say, but these are nations that stand alone, most Eropean countries have the luxury of being joined at the hip, so to speak. Just because a Nation is small does not mean any less importance, Monaco being a good example.
oikee said | November 14th 2008 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
No worries Millster, will catch up with you one day, we can talk about the what-ifs and butts.
cheers.
Steve Kaless said | November 14th 2008 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Thanks for your posts, you asked for my opinion on a few things so i’ll do my best to answer those…
“What RL team that would not want to have Tim Cahill / Brent Emerton / Lucas Neil / Vinney Griller” (Vinnie Grella?)
I have enormous respect for those guys as footballers but I think would really struggle as leaguies. Certainly the way I seen them react after a physical collision and the way they attempt tackles may mean it would be hard to see them make a seamless transition.
“RL has many challenges ahead, IMO getting the playmakers and thus those who put bums on seats and in front of TV’s will be a major part of RL long term success or failure. The youth league is a good start how you go about it I have no idea, but it will be a major part of RL’s future and as I see it one RL is currently loosing.”
Not sure what you mean here. You have no idea about how to go about setting a Rugby League Youth comp? Why no get every NRL club to field an under 20s team and we call it the National Youth Comp?
How are we losing that when it is clearly the stand out youth competition amongst all the football codes? Football has always had the juniors but that has never guaranteed success at an elite level.
“Steve how do you see this position RL finds itself in which did not exist 10 years ago.”
Ten years ago Rugby League was just emerging for the ashes of the Super League war, most “experts” claimed the game was dead and wouldn’t survive the next few years. I’d argue it is in a much better position than it was 10 years ago, but won’t detail everything here..you’ll have to keep reading my columns…
Cheers
Steve
Midfielder said | November 14th 2008 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
Steve
Thanks for your reply;- my comment on the Socceroos in league assumes they would have crossed codes in their mid teens and be beefed up a tad and that’s in essence this is my main point very skillful players who would have previously gone to RL are staying in greater numbers in football and the fight for the very talented player is on in earnest with RU, AFL & Football all chasing the Thurston’s of this world.
This is what I meant when I said RL is loosing / well not as successful as they where 15 years ago. Joey Johns is said to be the best player of the last 20 years …… if he had stayed in football it is difficult to judge what affect on RL or Football a player of this class would have on each code….. But if to many of the very skillful players no longer cross codes IMO it will damage RL I guess is my point on a major challenge facing league. The young Lucas Neil who was offered in his mid teens a place with Manly and knocked it back. The leakage of players from RU / Football to RL from the 1950’s to the early to mid 90’s is much less today and AFL is also looking to pick up many of the best youth talent around.
As to the SLW you wrote on…how RL is still on it’s feet is amazing and should be a warning to the AFL RL is alive and well … I think on an expansion path if they make the right calls in Oceania …. I agree with your comments on RL’s NYLC ..t
In one sentence Steve the battle for the best juniors RL is not doing as well as it did 20 years ago what can RL do to fix this in addition to its NYLC. In the past the players I named Matty Simon, Michael Bridge, James Holland, etc would all have played RL 15 years ago that’s why I said RL is losing.
Thanks for your reply
Midfielder / Halfback ( I played RL for years and a number at a semi professional level )
Koala Bear said | November 15th 2008 @ 7:26am | Report comment
You mean replace him with Guus surely… And maybe change the shape of the ball and a few rules about use of hands while we’re at it…
Millster,
I can see you are definitely a lad who likes to dot the “i” and cross the “t” so yes my apologies for the typo; It should have read “Guus Gould” apologies to Okiee for the blunder…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Steffy said | December 30th 2008 @ 5:31am | Report comment
“why on earth would Union ever agree to a transfer system with League? For 100 years League stole Union players with no recompense”
Who was stolen?
Crosscoder said | December 30th 2008 @ 5:50am | Report comment
Union players stolen LOL! Thought each union player made his own decision ,without duress to cross over to the “dark”side.
As did no doubt did the many French rugby league players who crossed over to “amateur” union in the decades after WW2 for the loot.
NZ winning the RLWc did more for the game in that country,than many of the false dawns of the past.Throw in the extrememly successful under 20 rl youth competiton,in which the Warriors have some outstanding juniors and the future looks rosy.