United’s dreams crushed by clinical Gamba

oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 6:11am | Report comment

What we saw last nite was some home truths that aussies have to accept and then move on from here. 1st of all, what i have been saying all along was reinforced last nite by Aloisi who mentioned after the game that we are 15 years behind Japan. And as i have mentioned on another forum we are 30 years behind the world. At least this guy has the balls to say what i can see but other guys like K.B and Millster just try to hype it up and pull the wool over our eyes.

If you and i can see weak cattle out on the feild we call them weak cattle. One person that everyone would have noticed is the Brazillan who scored at leasure. If you have 11 Brazillians on the pitch it gets more embarrassing for the aussies.

Now could we all just start calling a spade a spade and stop with the retorics and Pixies and magic wands, fairy sticks and hocus pocus and underdogs, yes we are underdogs and we all love underdogs, but backing this underdog is going to not have a fairy-tale ending believe me. This is the real world where its dog eat dog and the best are the best, cream rises to the top. Theres no luck of the irish happening anytime soon.

So getting back to what i am getting at, we should just be concentrating on our local game and trying to get this comp in order, expansion is going to weaken the comp even more, so add 5 years to that 30 i have mentioned.

P>S We all need to thank Aderlaide as well, the crowd all dressed in the red Japanese colour, these guys thought they were playing in front of a home crowd. This monkey see monkey do concept that we aussies clones are following is border line stupidity. Even the coaches follow what goes on overseas and act accordingly, its a pathetic line to take and does nothing for the sport in this country, what we need is some real coaches, maybe from rugby league. Union and also now cricket are hiring them?. These coaches are world class, at least the boys would learn something about being men, not babies.

You can knock me now all you like, i have laid down the truth for you and i know it hurts, but there it is, you can either accept it, or think about it and move on , or you can just call me what you like, but i have stated some commments that do become facts. If you wish to put your blinkers on and leave them on, thats your problem, not mine..

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:05am | Report comment

Oikee is correct about one point.

This tie was decided a long, long time ago, before even Gamba and AU lined up in Osaka.

To see the origins of this win, you have to go back to the inception of the J-League some 17 or so years ago.

That’s where the tie was won.

Dave said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment

Dont forget Gamba comfortably defeated Urawa Reds in the semi finals. Melb Victory had a cracking game with Gamba at TD losing 4-3 without AT and Hernandez. There is a gap but it is not as big as this final suggests. AU didn’t do themselves justice in both of the 1st halves in this tie. AU defeated Kashima in the 1/4 final over 2 legs just a month or two ago.
It sets up a nice little rivalry between HAL and JLeague teams that will grow in the coming years.
To see the record crowd all dressed in Red at the stadium was fantastic. Well done AU the bar has been set high in your achievements this season.

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment

Three highlights of AU’s campaign:
1. opening 0-2 away win agaisnt Pohang which set them up for the remainder of the campaign;
2. dominating Kashima over the full 180 minutes; and
3. Cassio’s 20 minute spell in the 2nd half of the 1st leg of the semi final agasint Kuruvchi, which basically got them into the final.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment

AU still got there and beat some good sides to do that …… my question does AU have a problems in finals remember the grand flogging when they played Melbourne.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment

with the team as limited as technically limited as Adelaide (and perhaps aleague clubs in general). We may once in a while upset the big guns like Kashima and we may upset gamba osaka in the CWC (not over yet). I don’t think any of the A-league sides can find consistent success until the next 15 years where we catch up to them. I feel that if adelaide plays the top side in Japan (kashima, Urawa, gamba) 10 times. We may draw against them twice, beat them other 2 times. But lose the other 6 games. It’s only so far you can go by playing street smart football, show fighting spirit and try a nick a goal in the break. Eventually class will prevail

I do believe this achievement is like Greece 2004. rather then Australian club football entering the golden age and being at the business end of competition regularly. There will be disapointment in the next couple of years.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:23am | Report comment

lucky it wasn’t 6-0 aggregate or that may become a football chant against us.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment

Oikee

Thanks mate I now realise a team with a sixty million budget with a very experienced coach ….expected to be the next Japanese coach btw… will beat a team with a six million budget with a very new coach with half his team out …….. I am sure you left these facts out by accident plus it was broadcast live to more countries than their are professional RL teams.

Funny the SA premier has said that over the last six weeks or so everywhere he went or SA government officials went in Asia people keep asking about AU, and Adelaide in general …….. also that some business has come Adelaide way ….. he did not believe it would happen until it did …….. you left that bit out to.

But most importantly I am glad you cheered the boys on and backed the Aussies over the Japs ……… sorry you did not your glad the Jap’s won this cannot be true …. remember….. Aussie spirit……like … “‘True blue …have you knocked off for a smoko and be back when its your code …..hey true blue”

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:28am | Report comment

Das

The six - nil will be on Saturday night and I will be their to witness it.

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment

Mid
AU are drained, physically and emotionally, you may well be closer to the mark than you realise.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment

oikee
Our club football may be behind japan by 15 years but not our national team where we can match them.
It’s japan success in club football conversely is part of the reason why japanese football haven’t gone the next levels it seems. Players are comfortably paid. Are heroes and house-hold names in the J-league. A lot of them don’t take the punt to leave the shores and play in Europe and bring their game to the next levels. A lot of time when they try they find themselves in a culture shock in foreign country where they can’t speak the language and away from the support network back home they ended up returning home.

jimbo said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment

OK it was 2 nil – not 3 nil, but Jesse still feel free to write some more constructive criticism of Adelaide and how bad the A-League is. Obviously there is much room for improvement and we will learn from it.

I’m as surprised and as disappointed as anyone with AU’s performance. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen them play – they looked tired and defeated and gave away acres of room in midfield and the marking of the strikers was pretty bad too. To their credit they played on in the second half and kept trying even though they had no chance of winning.
AU only conceded 4 goals in seven games leading up to the final - then let in 5 against Gamba and couldn’t score. Gamba is a good team and played very well, but I know AU is a much better team than that.
As bad as the final went for AU and the A-League, let’s not forget their achievements and when they come to play SFC I’ll give them a big cheer when they run on.

Now for the FIFA World Club Cup next month – Manchester United, Deportivo de Quito, CF Pachuka, Gamba, AU, and Waitakere and a share of the $20M prize money.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment

Aurelio Vidmar summed it up pretty well post match. His comments were:-

“Gamba are a very good and classy side. Over the two legs they were the better team. They were technically, tactically and physically superior to us,” Reds coach Aurelio Vidmar graciously conceded later.

Note he said that they were also physically superior. Which is an eye opener given that thats the only aspect of our game that we’ve had over Asian teams previously.
The Japanese club sides are our measuring stick. So now not only do we have to catch up technically,tactically but also physically. “Coming Out Fighting” means nothing if the other team is just as good at it if not better.

Pippinu you are absolutely spot on about the origins of this win & the inception of the J-League 17 years ago.
The Japanese have a football vision & are carrying it through.

But anybody who follows football & in particular Asian Football (except the rose coloured glasses brigade) knows this anyway.
What is the next step for the FFA then?
Well its obvious, to ensure that the standard of football technically, tactically, phsically keeps improving.
The physical angle can be brought up to speed relatively quickly, the tactical part a bit longer,but the real problem is technical & included in that is mindset on how the game is played viewed in Australia.
Take the goals the first resulting from a Gamba player beating the physically imposing Ognenovski by superior technique using the ball on a string method. He shoots goalkeeper parries Lucas picks up the crumbs. But the goal eventuated from the close ball control of the first player when he beat the “Ogmonster” as they called him at the Roar, like he wasn’t there.
The second was their superior passing technique whereby the Gamba player threaded a perfectly weighted ball between 2 AU players to Lucas running intelligently. Running to schedule using the outside of the foot technique goal game over.

I dont profess to have an answer but I do know one thing that money is the key. A 1.9 million salary cap as opposed to the 30 million Gamba spend on players(& they are one of the smaller spenders) seems to me like the old saying that my Dad used to say to me as a lad in Sheffield whenever I tried to pathetically physically confront him as a teenager:-
“Ey lad Elifunt said tu flea who ta pushin”.
So how do we get from the flea stage to match it with the elephant.
Well I dont wish to be a prophet of doom but if the salary cap is 1.9 million now it’ll be a slow process considering the huge gap to the Japanese clubs spending budgets.. Also to be perfectly honest theres not enough money in this country alone to ever bridge that gap. So where can it come from. There is only one possibility the very place that is exposing our football deficiencies Asia.
As I said the other day the aim of the AFC should be to have maybe 5 or 6″Super Leagues” Japan is already one. The others could be China,South Korea,Iran & us. But maybe it could be Uzbekistan taking the 5th spot over us or one of the middle East countries. If the game is to grow we cant not be in that top group of countries in Asia. All other countries in Asia will feed their top players into those countries the same as European clubs suck up the worlds best players.
So in reality the AFC needs to target certain countries(which there sort of doing with their points system at the moment) say these are “the Big 5 or 6″ & find the finances to pump into these leagues.
Otherwise I see a scenario where in 20 years time the ACL winners reads Japanese clubs only.
I’m not saying bring the Japanese clubs down I’m saying bring the rest up.
The “Rest ” realistically can only ever be a few Asian nations. Most are economic lightweights on the World stage.
So MBH i think “Is Dreamin” to quote the Castle if he ever thinks that somehow the whole of Asia can be like Japan.

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:34am | Report comment

Towser
good point on physicality, I would generalise that Australian teams and fans make two errors:

1. overstating the importance of being physical; and paradoxically
2. overstating their own level of physicality in the first place!

Gamba proved the 2nd point last night. They were more physical, but in the right places, eg:
1. Marking players - if done correctly, by its very nature is a physical exercise - if there’s too much space, it follows that the marking isn’t happening properly; and
2. Set pieces - in the modern game this is all about physicality - draw the line in the sand, mark out your turf and stand your ground, and if you can’t, the other mob will be all over you.

As a further example, allow me to use a most unlikely source, the reigning champ: Italy:
1. Does Australia have a junk yard dog like Gattuso?
2. Does Australia have a mean looking mother-f***er like Materazzi?
3. Was anyone able to keep up with and/or slow down Grosso (by fair means or otherwise) when he set off on an 80 m run at the 89th minute to seal Australia’s fate last WC? (well, eventually, yes - in the wrong spot!)

Dave said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment

Pip

Answer = Your favorite player Tiatto

Sammy C said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

Turned it off about 10 minutes after the 2nd goal.

Hearing Harper rant on about the assistants flag going up and coming down again was doing my head in.

Mixed with Cockerill beginnning to talk about the ‘fatigue’ factor of the reds - pfft.

Outplayed, convincingly.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment

Pippinu

Have to agree on the Physicality in the right places. In particular winning the ball.This requires a certain physicality but unless that physicality is combined with a correct timing, tackling technique whereby the physical strength is channeled into winning the ball it is useless . So a small guy can win the ball from the “Ogmonster” by channeling his physicality via his superior technique in tackling. Observe the game last night & you will see that AU hardly ever won the 50-50 balls.
They reminded actually in this respect of the Socceroos maybe up to 10 years ago & we still have catching up to do there as your comparison with Italian players indicates.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment

Difference in salary cap has been overstated.

This cause the other teams to buy better imports.
This helps them retain their players from going overseas to play in Europe.

In all honesty we want our players playing in Europe and even saying that I doubt if we had the salary of Gamba Osaka would have stopped Adelaide losing Burns and Djite to europe. After all both of them were ambitious players looking to further their careers and develop their talents and no amount of money was going to keep them in Adelaide.
Better imports would be nice but not crucial for Australian football and we weren’t outclass by imports where the likes of Cassio and Diego (although they flopped in the final) carried the team to the ACL final but by the difference in standards of local players.

In the end paying players more money is not going to make them better players as Bunyodkor has found out.
Although I admit that difference in salary may be a big issue later on when Australians are getting poach by asian teams. However the salary cap difference wasn’t really an issue in this current ACL campaign (squad size was though) and the fact was that we lost to Gamba Osaka due to the strength of their home grown players

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment

The biggest issues is something that has been oversaid and overplayed but still relevant as alwaysd. Technique, technique and technique. No salary or budget difference or even squad sizes changes is going to improve that.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:10am | Report comment

Tow

Your point on the few leagues I agree but I think the number is closer to 11.

Korea, China, Japan, Uzbekistan, Australia, Iran, then coming soon Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudis, Vietnam, India.

Indonesia has over ten million registered park players and they are hungry to win, its just they have no set up of talent identification, ….. and very importantly they have little top quality coaches …… further their club management is poor …. Australia joining the AFC in part was to pass on our sports management programs to countries like Indonesia, Malaysia & Vietnam …… believe me these countries have a real passion for football and huge player numbers but no idea how to pull it all together.

India is very interesting, football has a huge following among the poor, cricket is a middle class game. AS India breaks down their existing barriers between classes football will rise and importantly the interest in European leagues in the young middle classes is very high. Does this mean football will ever challenge cricket in India ……. NO way …… but can it become a very strong second code ……. most definitely …….. have a look at http://www.the-afc.com/eng/visasia/index.jsp.html it’s the vision page of the ACL site.

Australia’s future will be to remain among the top five of these eleven leagues IMO.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:11am | Report comment

Pip

Lucas Neill although now a more cultured player was originally known as a rather industrious player especially playing for Millwall. He also broke somes legs in his days.

Set pieces - for the most part weren’t all the set pieces scored by Gamba by foreign players heading the ball rather then japanese players.

But overall agree - Adelaide was out muscled and weren’t as fit as the opposition.

About the grosso incident
If Emerton didn’t get himself send off against Croatia I’m convince that Grosso wouldn’t have went past him. Bresciano ain’t no full back and was a mismatch against Grosso..

oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:30am | Report comment

The A-league in oz is never going to be anything but a feeder comp, i have stated this before and if you start listening to me you will be better off than listening to the B.S that some other bloggers write on here, i am talking K.B and Millster, they put shit on me but dont want to hear what i am saying, i said oz was not big enough to support a huge football following, yes you will get crowds but we dont have the cash. So feeder comp is what we will be, ? nothing wrong with this, the guys will move overseas and make the real money and improve there skills. The reasons behind my knowing this is that a-league is 30 years behind, fact.
Look at league and you get the picture very easy right in front of you. Oz dominate in the Asian area, all roads lead to the aussie comp. The standards are the best in the world, we have money to pay the best players. (not that the island guys get paid diddle in their own country) so we attract the best, reverse this and you can see asia and what it will become. If you can enjoy watching the Asians in our comp this will help immenseley. Lots of good has come from this effort, but it also highlights a few facts that i have mentioned before, players playing 6 games in what? 3 weeks. Just wears players down in the end, your game was finished before it started Aderlaide. Not their fault, blame the orginisers.

Expansion is going to weaken the comp, water it down to nothing if your not carefull, with any top player headed off overseas you will have a deteriated comp that no-one gives a toss about. Thats something you have to be carefull of, this Buckley is riding the wave, yes good but at what expence. Build your market here and then expand. Just finally , this AU”s next home game, lets count the numbers and see who really is supporting this team, next issue, complacensy, once the dice has been rolled, are there enough supporters to keep the ball rolling. Someone mentioned another game for the A.U ,, Wise move i think not. How many times do we need to see a massacue.

And agree with who said that A.U will get its “tail whpped” again on the weekend. Their effort against Gamba will wreck them. No fresh Cattle left down there.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment

Midfielder

I remember probably around 1980 we played Indonesia was on Channel 9 funnily enough about 10 pm.
Cant remember the score(had a few beers) but I remember the vibrant & colourful large crowd.
Now this may not be a dyed in the wool football country but sitting immediately above us is one,Indonesia with 10 times our population. I’ve often wondered why we’ve never really tapped into that since that game. Could be politics I suppose.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment

Oikee

You make many assumptions about football http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Knz3_5IXQ7s this link helps describe assumptions and the ending has a real good point to make.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment

Tow

The Indonesians are hungry to win ……. they want so much to be successful .. and why BTW considering our history with them why the Commonwealth Government is keen to use football as a method of holding informal talks.

oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment

You lost me on the 1st beat Midfeilder, dont like country or western, i am more your hard rock heavy metal type, but its a nice jester you write. You can call them assumptions if you like, i tend to call them facts. Funny how they are all seemingly starting to come true. Write my posts down if you like, memerize them and use them for future disscussions. I dont have anything to hide like some. I say what i see and let time do the rest. Cheers

Koala Bear said | November 13th 2008 @ 11:48am | Report comment

The A-league in oz is never going to be anything but a feeder comp, i have stated this before and if you start listening to me you will be better off than listening to the B.S that some other bloggers write on here, i am talking K.B and Millster, they put shit on me but dont want to hear what i am saying.

Okiee,
stop sniffing that borax and get that bauxite to the smelter .. The aluminium cup is lost and no where to be found .. Please get onto to the case laddie.. The Aluminium World Cup will be over before yer can say these coconuts are making my head split .. I can see that Bronco’s beanie of yours is looking more like an over sized Sombrero around a Kingaroy peanut…

Okiee,
Millster and I would never put shite on you. I think you are doing a fine job on your own… keep it up laddie

~~~~~~~~~
KB

oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:05pm | Report comment

I think you used that same post yesterdau K.B. I thought i would get your attention, the broncos are doing fine, get on them next year, the trophy cabinet is full and i have a closet full of maroons winning jumpers. How’s your underdogs doing K.B,
Tell you what i might do, turn tellie on in 30 years to see how your going. cheers.

oikee said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:26pm | Report comment

Aluminium price is up K.B unforetunately the price of Gold has fallen, Fact.

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:56pm | Report comment

dasilva
I agree with you on Emo and Bresh - I’m fairly certain that Bresh doesn’t like taking a look at the feeble manner in which he handled Grosso at the moment when:
1. his judgement had to be better (allowed the ball to bounce past him);
2. he needed more grit; and
3. found wanting in the chase late in the game.

The attention on the 50/50 penalty decision often overlooks what had happened 7 seconds or so earlier.

Koala Bear said | November 13th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment

Oikee,
I think your coconut wound is worse than we have realized… Hmm anyways I just want to get in a last post today and will be back in the evening..

Lads,
a disappointing result last night and I think again we did not see the real AU turn up to play. A horrible performance one after another.. Remember AU disposed of the Antlers and the Usbeks in fine style, so they can play… However, due to fatigue and injured or suspended players, gone missing they faulted at the last two vital hurdles.. That is unfortunate.. and that is Football…

Not taking anything away from Gamma’s dominance they were clearly thinking 2 yards ahead of AU and worthy ACL champions.. And played some delightful entertaining Football .. However, their first two quick soft and I mean soft goals in the first 10 minutes ended the contest.. Although it was pleasing AU still kept on attacking and imo were unlucky not to get a couple of penalties and a goal .. But when the ball is not bouncing your way on the night, you are not going to bring home the bacon..

On the positive note, this whole exercise was indeed a great learning curve for all HAL clubs and I hope AU will pass on their undoubtedly valuable information to the CCM and the Jets .. Remembering that the Japanese took a few seasons to get going in the ACL quest .. Win lose or draw, in the next tournaments, this tournament, will grow from strength to strength, in the Australian media with continued expectancy to succeed.. All looks good for Australian Football and that is evident with the STF syndrome surfacing as usual on such an occasion like this..

~~~~~~~~~
KB

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment

Pip
If you read Jesse FInk book he and rale rasic blames the whole goal on the event preceding that where Totti had the ball. Totti who was marked by cahill was left on the ball for 8 seconds and took a long while until cahil pressurised him. THat gave him the time to assess the game and saw that iaquinta on the centre and grosso on the left and assess that grosso had one man to beat and iaquinta was a mark man he then delivered a good weighted pass and the rest is history.

So it seems like 4 mistakes. Emerton getting suspended, Cahill not marking totti, bresciano stuff up against grosso and neill falling down.

jimbo said | November 13th 2008 @ 1:06pm | Report comment

Its not possible for the A-League to be 30 years, or even 17 years behind the J-League - its only been going for 4 years.

I don’t like comparing anyway, but comparing the A-League to the J-League is not comparing apples to apples - the J-League teams are full of national team players while most of Australia’s best players are overseas. There is also a big gulf in budgets and facilities.

The A-League will probably never be the same as the J-League.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment

Jimbo

In some senses we are in a fortunate position & their is a positive.
That being historically in a football sense where the game is at in Asia & In particular Japan.
Its fair to say that 2 years ago we would not be having this conversation. The J-League clubs had shown little interest in the ACL then for various reasons, one of which is that in comparison with the J-League it wasn’t worth the effort.
The ACL has been revamped with greater prizemoney. It is now worthwhile.
IF the J-League like us had started 4 years ago & history repeated itself their crowds were on a severe downward spiral.
Their clubs were fragile.
There would then be no measure of where were at. AU could havewon the final against Gamba.
THe ACL would be weaker& we would have blithely floated along thinking we were better than we really are.
But thats not the position the AFC wisely revamps the ACL comp at a time when the Japanese have now a settled developed football competition. That benefits everybody including countries like China. It shows that correct professional football development is the way to go.
How we develop it is difficult, I gave a few ideas rightly or wrongly, but at least we have a measuring stick & we can thank the Japanese for raising the bar on their football standards for this.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment

I will say that the A League will ALWAYS be weaker then the J-league. That’s not saying an australian team can’t beat a japanese side or that they can’t win the ACL. It just that over long stretches a J league team will win more ACL then an Australian side will in the next 20-30 years.

Why do I believe that. Even if we improve the technique of the players where Australian players in general are technically equal to the japanese. The fact will remain that the best japanese player will play in the J league (there is strong rumours that Nakamura will leave celtic and return back to J league due to home sickness despite his outstanding success there) and our best player will go to europe.

our aim shouldn’t really be having A-league stronger then J league but having A league being a good developmental league and support our main aim in making sure that Australia National team is the strongest in Asia. If we achieved that i can accept A-league being behind J league indefinately.

jimbo said | November 13th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment

Towser,
exactly right, to improve you need something to aspire to and the A-league and AU should get better from the experiences.
AU (and SFC) didn’t get past the first round of the AFC at their first attempt, so to make the final at only your second attempt and 4 years as a club is worthy of some credit.

The Joeys failed to qualify for the U-19s world cup at their last attempt and critics predicted gloom and doom for the future Socceroos.
But this time they have made it and could possibly take out the Asian U19s title - our first title in Asia.
Sometimes you need a good kick in the backside to make you want to do better.

Whether the A-League will be as good as or better than the J-League or not, we now know that A-League teams can beat J-League teams and all other A-League clubs should take heart from that next year.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 2:12pm | Report comment

Heres a bit about the J-League & the structure of Japanese Football in General:-

http://www.wldcup.com/Asia/region/index.html

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment

After you’ve read that for a more light hearted look at Japanese Football:-

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ACjs-ybQF20

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment

Heres another interesting article by Dr Shaji. Once again Indian English but he knows his onions.

http://www.kolkatafootball.com/shaji_prabhakaran_article3.html

Quote from it.

“If one has the opportunity to research or study each of the developed football nations then it will be clear that how each of them developed to their current level and very much the review will indicate that the development programme addressed each and every aspect of football, and concentrated on the whole of Pyramid. But it is also believed that development work should start either from top to bottom or from bottom to top of the Pyramid. The best model is to address simultaneously every sector of the Pyramid if possible for the best result. ”

Our Football pyramid is held up at different stages by strange magnetic fields all pulling in different directions,especially at the level of Football NSW.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment

Tow

Can you also add your previous link Dr Shaji wrote.

NSW Football I canot understand why we need the states any more why FFA cannot deal direct with the associations ..as for NSW football a law unto itself what more can you say.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 3:51pm | Report comment

Midfielder

http://www.kolkatafootball.com/new_article.html

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment

Dave
lol re Tiatto - a case of careful of what you really want, you might just get it!

dasilva
I wouldn’t be too harsh on Cahill - he’s thinking: ok, 15 seconds to the final whistle and then it’s an extra 30 minutes. Don’t let him get past me, and he can’t do too much damage.

But I ask you, what was everyone else thinking while Totti was holding on to the ball for 8 seconds? Why was there so much space for Grosso to run into after he shook off Bresh? Where was everybody?

It was as if Italy was still switched on, and all 11 of the Australians had switched off, waiting for the final whistle.

Either way, the Italians read the situation very well, and the Australians didn’t.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment

Tow

Thanks

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 4:27pm | Report comment

Towser
thanks for the links to the J-League set up.

The question remains open whether we could ever have a 2nd division with promotion and relegation (whether we have the market and culture to sustain that).

But I do note that under J2, there is the JPL from which teams can apply for promotion to J2.

Ultimately, let’s say we have a comp of 14 - and using the above corrollary, we may one day see a situation where teams from the state leagues are allowed to apply for promotion to the A-League, so that we end up with a quasi-relegation/promotion system (not too different from the old NSL).

Someone here, either Mid or Millster, once said that we need a 2nd division to get 4 teams into the ACL. But I have since discovered that’s not exactly correct, because South Korea only has one division, and yet has 4 teams in the ACL. What we need is to earn points to get us above a certain threshold to have 4 teams - and a 2nd division is one way to earn those points - but there may be other ways to earn sufficient points.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:05pm | Report comment

Decision Process
Participating MA (member’s association)/clubs
1. 4 slots for MA with more than 300 points
2. 1 slot for MA with less than 300 points
3. 1/3 of clubs in the league is the maximum number of slots which can be provided
4. Distribution of the slots according to the reference figure

Australia has 306 points in rating our league out of 500
However since our league has only 8 clubs and 1/3 of our league is 2.7
Only two teams can make it to the ACL.

It seems to me that if our league had 12 teams we would already have 4 teams i n the ACL already by this criteria.

http://www.the-afc.com/uploads/Documents/common/cms/afc/AFC%20PRO-LEAGUE%20AD-HOC%20COMMITTEE%20ASSESSMENT%20CHARTS%201.pdf

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:17pm | Report comment

dasilva
thanks for that - so you’re confirming that we don’t need two divisions afterall?

I must admit, I thought being at 12 teams was sort of borderline (in terms of getting us the extra two clubs).

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:28pm | Report comment

I’m not too sure. Japan was considered the only country to meet the minimum requirement for participation to ACL which is 450 points I assume. Us along with other 10 other countries has pledge that we will meet the minimum requirement in the future and will be reviewed every year and therefore is granted conditional entry to the ACL with the pledge to improve their league.

We would have met the requirement of 4 teams in our current state if we had a 12 team league for the 2009 ACL. However when the participation rate is reviewed later on we have to show some progress in reaching that acceptable levels and the standard expected of Australia will be higher so maybe 12 clubs is not enough and maybe they expect us to have promotion/relegation, fa cup style competitions etc by then

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:41pm | Report comment

so maybe for AFC 2011 we would require 350 points + 12 teams to get 4 spots.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:45pm | Report comment

Pippinu

We will have to get promotion relegation eventually. They pretty much want every Asian Country to set up league to be like the J league. Not having promotion-relegation may not prevent us from getting 4 teams in the near future but eventually it will cost us a 4th spot in the ACL as by an unspecified date they want all team participating in the ACL to have promotion-relegation.

It’s a matter of when instead of if.

Millster said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:52pm | Report comment

Well well well I’m absolutely flattered. Just spent the last 9 hours on a plane and what do you know, my name gets mentioned just as much when I’m off-line as when I’m on-line. Oikee I never knew you were such a fan I’ll send you my autograph someday if the postman can find the cave you live in.

Oh and on your cabinet full of trophies, Oikee, you must realise that Adelaide coming second in the continent last night is worth infinitely more than all your little suburban closed-code trophies put together. Your guys spash around in a small puddle whereas Adelaide were being tested in the vast ocean of world football and though they were beaten in the final fixtures, overall they came up quite ok thanks very much. In any case lets not compare so-called achievement in a bullshit little code with real achievement in a globally elite sport.

I for one applaud them. 3.5 years into the A-League, the fact we are even just having this discussion is beyond my wildest dreams. As for whether we are 5, 10 or 30 years behind, only time - and more appearances in the finals of the continent - will tell.

Towser said | November 13th 2008 @ 5:57pm | Report comment

dasilva

That is my understanding also. Although looking at the economies in Asia I see no more than 5 0r 6 countries not 11 or more being able to match the J-League & as I said earlier we will need some financial help from Asia to keep up.
Interesting times ahead.
I’m sure the AFC will keep adjusting this points business according to the way the ACL pans out from now on.
There already taking a big risk with the one final scenario next year. If this takes off & attracts big sponsorship dollars & TV rights who knows were all speculating on a work in progress.
But from the A-Leagues perspective I’d rather this scenario( Ocean liner driven by the AFC/ACL) than going it alone in a washing basket.

dasilva said | November 13th 2008 @ 6:12pm | Report comment

I’m sort of wondering. If Australia get’s 4 spots
That’s mean in East Asia there will be 16 teams for 4 countries.
Not exactly the champions league I have in mind when only 4 countries in the entire east asia participate

Perhaps australia will never get 4 spot until we become a better league then either south korea or china
Or that maybe if a-league improve. We get the other 2 teams to play in qualification rounds.

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 7:51pm | Report comment

Millster

AU tested themselves on the world stage (or at least part of it), and has nearly gone broke doing so. Most certainly, their spirit is broken, and they won’t make the finals this year as a result. That’s a minimum two years away from the ACL - one wonders what they will get out of it in the long run. If they fail to see out the decade as a financially viable club, will it have truly meant anything? (recalling that 6 of the 8 clubs don’t look like seeing the 5th year in the black, as was originally forecast).

The Jets are already verging on calling in the administrators - one wonders whether they could afford a run to the semi-finals of the ACL next season (in all likelihood, it’s a hypothetical that won’t be tested).

In the meantime, Hawthorn is celebrating a $4+ million profit for the past 12 months, which even in global terms, is not too shabby, let alone for a shitty little comp at the arse-end of the world. Most clubs in the Serie A would kill for a profit of that magnitude - they’d even consider vice and corruption to manage it!!

jimbo said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:37pm | Report comment

Pip,
I think you’re being a bit hard on AU and a lot of what you say is incorrect.
From the guaranteed prize money they already have won, they will make a profit from the ACL and WCC and not a loss.

Despite all that they’ve been through and having to play 11 games in 55 days, they’re still second in the A-League and will probably finish in the top three again.

Apart from the increased prize money for next year’s ACL, the AFC will also pay the travelling expenses of all competing clubs so the ACL is not a financial burden to anyone.

If Hawthorn made $4M profit last year why did they bludge $10M off the federal and state governments in the last 2 years to develop their ground and upgrade their saunas, bars and training facilities?

Koala Bear said | November 13th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment

Jimbo,
not another Federal Government handout to a Grooky Club… ? Geez when will it stop..?

~~~~~~~~
KB

Dave said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:23pm | Report comment

Pip

And Melb lost $2.5million only to be saved from disaster by some generous backers making donations.

AU will make a decent sum out of the ACL and ACC although not as much as next year…not too bad for a club playing in a comp that didnt exist 4 years ago. They have had 3 consecutive sold out crowds and the stadium was a sea of red last night. They have been headline news in Adelaide over the past month or two…not too bad me thinks in a town supposedly dominated by AFL.

Jimbo/KB
Also Nth Melb just received a $9million handout from state and fed govts for redoing their ground…

Joe FC said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:28pm | Report comment

Pippinu
Adelaide have indeed tested themselves on a big part of the world stage - the Asian part - something Hawthorn has not done nor ever will. As for your they’re “nearly gone broke doing so….their spirit is broken….If they fail to see out the decade as a financially viable club…” it seems you’re determined to add to your earlier absurd FFA conspiracy piffle. If Australian Rules football is to have more than a secondary presence in our Eastern states, not to mention any sort of presence outside our shores, it will need every cent of that $4M and a whole lot more.

Dave said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment

Pip

The budgetof ACL from 2009 has increased 500% from $6m in 2008 to $33m in 2009 with the winner receiving $2.5m just from winning the final (doesnt include other prizemoney won along the way)…sort of puts Hawthorns $4m into perspective a little (didn’t much of their earnings come from gambling income?). Fox sports article below;

“Cash boost for ACL

October 28, 2008 THE AFC Champions League received a huge boost with the prize money for next season’s revamped tournament massively increased to $US14 million ($23.26 million).

Asia’s top club competition will be expanded from 28 to 32 teams in 2009, but with stricter criteria for participation in an effort to raise standards.

Tokuaki Suzuki, deputy chief of the AFC’s Professional League Project, said the extra money on offer would provide clubs with motivation to meet the new requirements to compete.

“The new budget means there is much, much more revenue for clubs participating in the tournament,” Suzuki said.

“This will give clubs the incentive to be more professional so they meet the requirements to take part in the competition.”

The total budget for 2009 is $US20 million ($33.23 million), dwarfing the $US4 million ($6.65 million) available for this year’s event.

Of that, 70 per cent is dedicated to prize money and incentives, with the eventual winners taking home $US1.5 million ($2.49 million) plus bonuses from earlier rounds.

A victory in the group stages will be worth $US40,000 ($A66,450).

“This means that even if a team cannot qualify for the round of 16, they still have an incentive to do well in the group matches,” said Suzuki. ”

Not too shabby.

Midfielder said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:44pm | Report comment

PIP

How certain are you on the Jets thing …….. very big call they are your words “The Jets are already verging on calling in the administrators - one wonders whether they could afford a run to the semi-finals of the ACL next season (in all likelihood, it’s a hypothetical that won’t be tested).”

Do you have inside information a media report or some special knowledge as… rumors start…. and by Fuck you can cause some trouble with this kinda post ….. if it is based on gut feel or what your brothers mate heard down the pub from his girl friend … then I think you have crossed a line as financial matters in times like these especially when the Jets backer has major business interests as well …… so it wider than football as well.

Pip what have you based your post that the Jets crashing to ground and going under …….

Norm said | November 13th 2008 @ 9:47pm | Report comment

so Piphead
what were the comparative Japanese TV ratings for the 2nd leg of the ACL v AFL grand final?
and
what were the comparative NZ TV ratings for Friday night (19/9/08) semi-final football NRL v AFL?
and
what are the comparative European crowds for the touring Wallabies v AFL?
Get the picture?
As Joe FC says what sort of a dint will 4mill make on that gap?

Pippinu said | November 13th 2008 @ 10:16pm | Report comment

Why is everyone getting all defensive?!

All I said was that Hawthorn making a $4+ million profit for the last 12 months is pretty big for a local parish comp at the arse-end of the world.

It’s true that Hawthorn will not test themselves in another part of the world - but if you’re pulling in $4 mill annual profits, is it a big deal? In any event, they are playing

By Guy Hand
November 13th 2008 @ 3:45am

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By Guy Hand November 13th 2008 @ 3:45am