How strong Australian rugby could have been
Roar Pro
By Bruce Sheekey, 20 Nov 2008 The Crowd is a Roar Pro
Related coverage
- Hawthorn Hawks news
- North Melbourne Kangaroos news
- Kangaroos news
- New Zealand All Blacks news
- Rugby League news
- AFL news
- Toyota Premiership news
A post by fellow Roarer, Frank O’Keefe, has inspired me to write this article in which I will shamelessly re-write the history of Australian rugby by nominating various teams at chronological intervals, and including those players who defected to league, or retired too early, to get a real job back in the amateur era.
All for the purpose of demonstrating how strong Australian rugby OUGHT to have been!
But first, if John Lennon had been an Australian born, rugby union lover as well as a world famous singer-songwriter, he might have penned this:
Imagine there’s no league,
It’s easy if you try,
No defections below us,
Above us only union joy,
Imagine all the people,
Living rugby for today.
You may say that I’m a dreamer,
But I’m not the only one,
I hope someday you’ll join us,
And the rugby world will be as one.
1 – 1910.
In reality, rugby union was on its knees. The defection of Messenger in 1907, and another 15 Wallabies in 1909, had finally turned the tide of public opinion towards league. But it could have been so different! League defectors, and/or premature retirees are highlighted in bold. Other players actually appeared as is. Russell, Hickey, Messenger, McKivat, Craig, McCue, Burge and Barnett were league defectors. Hughes and Hammand retired early, while Richards was playing in SA for the Lions! Gilbert defected after this series.
15-Larry Dwyer, 14-CHARLIE RUSSELL, 13-Herb Gilbert, 12-DARB HICKEY, 11-DALLY MESSENGER, 10-Ward Prentice, 9-CHRIS MCKIVAT(c), 8-Syd Middleton(vc), 7-JIM HUGHES, 6-TOM RICHARDS, 5-PADDY McCUE, 4-PETER BURGE, 3-JACK BARNETT, 2-Tom Griffin, 1-Harry George. Bench: 22-Alf Dunbar, 21-Dinny Campbell, 20-Possum Wood, 19-BOB CRAIG, 18-Paddy Murphy, 17-CHARLES HAMMAND, 16-Jim Clarken.
2 – 1934.
Strangely, few players defected in the 20s and 30s, but getting work was a problem. And in 1934 the depression was still biting. Many of the 1933 tourists to SA retired to get work, but the team was still strong, beating the ABs. Cooke decided to stay in SA, Cerutti was injured, while Ford, Thompson, Steggall, Cowper and Bland all retired prematurely.
15-Alec Ross(c), 14-Doug McLean, 13-Cyril Towers, 12-Dooney Hayes, 11-Jockey Kelaher, 10-Welly Lewis, 9-Syd Malcolm, 8-JACK FORD, 7-Owen Bridle, 6-Aub Hodgson, 5-Bill White, 4-GRAHAM COOKE, 3-WILD BILL CERUTTI, 2-Eddie Bonis(vc), 1-EDDIE THOMPSON. Bench; 22-JACK STEGGALL, 21-DAVE COWPER, 20-Wayne Bennett, 19-Rob Loudon, 18-GEOFF BLAND, 17-Ron Walden, 16-Ted Jessep.
3 – 1953.
On tour in SA. Allan, Kearney and Mossop had all defected to league, while still relatively young. Their forward presence especially, would have been helpful in SA. In reality, Kearney wouldn’t have ousted hooker Cottrell, but for the purpose of the exercise, he is included. Windon toured, but missed the tests through injury. Piper, Tooth and Baxter were unavailable to tour. Here’s a composite team.
15-BRIAN PIPER, 14-Eddie Stapleton, 13-TREVOR ALLAN(c), 12-John Solomon, 11-Garth Jones, 10-DICK TOOTH, 9-Cyril Burke, 8-Brian Johnson, 7-Col Windon, 6-Keith Cross, 5-Rex Mossop, 4-Tony Miller, 3-JACK BAXTER, 2-KEN KEARNEY(vc), 1-Nick Shehadie. Bench: 22-Ray Colbert, 21-Murray Tate, 20-Brian Cox, 19-Norm Hughes, 18-Alan Cameron, 17-Col Forbes, 16-Nev Cottrell.
4 – 1963.
If ever a year showed how much stronger rugby could have been, this is the year. A strong touring team headed off for SA. Phelps had prematurely retired, while Miller, Chapman, Freedman and one of the Boyce twins were unavailable. Chapman was later a leading thoroughbred racehorse trainer and Freedman an America’s Cup sailor. Then first choice fullback Lenehan was injured in the last training outing before the team took off. Meanwhile, another ex-Wallaby Des Connor was playing for the All Blacks. Then later that year, the 1963-64 Kangaroos headed off with 5 ex-Wallabies in Cleary, Lisle, Summons(c), Ryan and Dick Thornett. Last but not least the 3rd Thornett brother Ken, also toured with the Kangaroos. Such is the depth, I’ve selected 2 XVs. The mind boggles!!
1st XV: 15-JIM LENEHAN, 14-MIKE CLEARY, 13-Dick Marks, 12-Beres Ellwood, 11-Jim Boyce, 10-Phil Hawthorne, 9-Ken Catchpole(vc), 8-KEVIN RYAN, 7-Greg Davis, 6-Jules Guerasimoff, 5-Rob Heming, 4-DICK THORNETT, 3-Jon White, 2-Peter Johnson, 1-JohnThornett(c).
2nd XV: 15-KEN THORNETT, 14-STU BOYCE, 13-ROD PHELPS, 12-JIMMY LISLE, 11-John Douglas, 10-ARTHUR SUMMONS(c), 9-DES CONNOR, 8-John O’Gorman, 7-Ted Heinrich, 6-GEOFF CHAPMAN, 5-Dallas O’Neill, 4-Peter Crittle, 3-TONY MILLER, 2-Mike Jenkinson, 1- JOHN FREEDMAN.
5 – 1978.
We beat 5N grand slam champions Wales, and just missed winning the series against the ABs by a failed last minute penalty. But how much better might the team have been with league defectors, unavailable and injured players? Fairfax and Price had defected to league; Crowe, McLean and Loane were injured; G.Shaw and Hillhouse were unavailable. Here’s a composite team.
15-RUSSELL FAIRFAX, 14-PHIL CROWE, 13-Andy Slack, 12-GEOFF SHAW, 11-Brendan Moon, 10-PAUL McLEAN(vc), 9-John Hipwell, 8-MARK LOANE(c), 7-RAY PRICE, 6-Greg Cornelsen, 5-Peter McLean, 4-DAVID HILLHOUSE, 3-Stan Pilecki, 2-Peter Horton, 1-John Meadows. Bench; 22-Laurie Monaghan, 21-Ken Wright, 20-Rod Hauser, 19-Gary Pearse, 18-Tony Shaw, 17-Chris Handy, 16-Bill Ross.
6 – 1987.
I’ve bypassed 1984, and gone straight to 1987, the year of the inaugural world cup. What if Mark Ella was still playing? What if indeed! How would he and Alan Jones have got on? Who would have been captain, without Slack being able to make the starting XV? O’Connor, and D’Arcy had defected to league, while Moon was injured and unavailable. Williams and Ella of course, had retired too early.
15-Roger Gould, 14-David Campese, 13-MICK O’CONNOR, 12-Mick Lynagh(vc), 11-BRENDAN MOON, 10-MARK ELLA, 9-Nick Farr-Jones, 8-Steve Tuynman, 7-Simon Poidevin(c), 6-David Codey, 5-Steve Cutler, 4-STEVE WILLIAMS, 3-Andy McIntyre, 2-Tom Lawton, 1-TONY D”ARCY. Bench: 22-Matt Burke, 20-Brett Papworth, 20-Brian Smith, 19-Jeff Miller, 18-Bill Campbell, 17-Cameron Lillicrap, 16-Mark McBain.
7 – 1991.
This is the last of our revisits. O”Connor, Burke and Papworth had defected to league. Gavin was injured on the eve of the world cup, while Lawton was playing in SA. By the 90s, rugby union was losing very few players to league, and none of the key players. Post professionalism, and we’ve seen the trend reverse.
15-Marty Roebuck, 14-David Campese, 13-MICK O’CONNOR, 12-Tim Horan, 11-Jason Little, 10-Mick Lynagh, 9-Nick Farr-Jones(c), 8-TIM GAVIN, 7-Simon Poidevin, 6-Willie Ofahengaue, 5-John Eales, 4-Rod Mccall(vc), 3-Ewen McKenzie, 2-Phil Kearns, 1-Tony Daly. Bench: 22-Matt Burke, 21-Brett Papworth, 20-Peter Slattery, 19-Troy Coker, 18-Jeff Miller, 17-Dan Crowley, 16-TOM LAWTON.
Enjoy sports? Enjoy a bargain? All Sports Online has your favourite sporting brands at up to 70% off. Online only, premium quality sporting goods and merchandise at discounted prices. Get a deal now.
Do you have what it takes to become a sports writer? Write for the roar
Rugby Union articles
- Will Super Rugby crowds continue their slide? (201)
- Will South African rugby force a Super 21 by 2018? (173)
- The real story of how John O’Neill turned Manchester City down (70)
- Dan Parks and the unsolved questions of expat rugby (65)
- Australian teams at Super disadvantage (58)
- Pocock set to be named new Force skipper (56)
- Can the ‘Tahs win the battle after losing the Waugh? (51)
- France turns to Parra and Trinh-Duc
- Rebels look to lift for formidable Blues in rugby trial
- Mr Fix-It Lucas wants to nail down No.10
- Force roost loses ‘Mother Hen’ Sharpe
- Victory beat Mariners with Kewell winner
- Waratahs romp to 83-5 trial win over Samoa A
- Quade Cooper’s return to the Reds goes up a gear
- Wales show Southern Hemisphere how to play running rugby (29)
- What opening matches of Six Nations taught us (19)
- Will Super Rugby crowds continue their slide? (202)
- Clinical Chiefs cost rusty Rebels in Corio (9)
- Six Nations shows rugby is a parochial game at heart (5)
- Goose’s Super Rugby up-and-comer XV for 2012 (29)
- What does the future hold for the Six Nations (50)
Mr Mac said | November 20th 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Sheek
To extend the John Lennon idea – what would it have been like if you included players of both codes eg Reg Gasnier, John Raper, Ron Coote just to name a few
sheek said | November 20th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Mr Mac,
Oh crikey, what a nightmare! Actually, I’ve tried this exercise previously, based on the premise that the league players, had they been reared in only union, would in most cases have been just as good at union as at league.
However, one conclusion I arrived at, is that immortal johnny Raper would not have made the all-time Wallaby XV. Firstly, because he lacked the size to be considered in an all-time backrow position, & secondly, his speed wasn’t quite up there with the best either for any backrow position.
This is no way detracts from his unbelievable football ability. Off the top of my head, I reckon Churchill, Langlands, Irvine, Messenger, Gasnier, Brown, Meninga, Fulton, Lewis, Coote, Burge, McCarthy, Provan, Prigg, Treweek, Beetson, Hall & Kelly would all be serious contenders for either the 1st or 2nds all-time XV.
Indeed, while Raper mightn’t make the all-time 1st Wallaby XV, it would be difficult to leave him out of the 2nd XV. This is just another delicious aspect of the jigsaw puzzle.
Mr Mac said | November 20th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Sheek
I think its an interesting observation on Raper. My Memories of watching him play was his tremendous anticipation, particularly in defence – he seemed to be at least one play ahead of the attacking side. He was also a good league 5/8 playing there initially with Newtown.
I wonder however about Beetson – I admire him as a great league forward but I think he was too “lazy” to make it in Union.
I have often wondered what our teams would be like if there was only one code. What if??
sheek said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Mr Mac,
Very perceptive observations. Yes, Raper’s genius was his ability to know to be in the right place at the right time, either in attack or defence. Absolutely.
Had he been a Wallaby, he would have been a sensation in the 60s. The problem is, when considering him for an all-time place in a Wallaby XV, he would have been up against equally good players, who in addition would have enjoyed a size & speed advantage. Thus, the dilemma.
With Beetson, I take your point about his laziness. However, it’s also true, in the second half oh his career in the 70s, he became an extremely responsible & consistently good player. He had all the equipment to be a great prop, both sides of the scrum. If you could imagine him growing up with the same outrageous ball skills in union that he had in league, plus his technique & toughness, he would have been a sensation.
The only union equivalent I can immediately conjour up in my mind, is All Black Steve McDowell from the 80s. But even he didn’t have Beetson’s outrageous talents!
sheek said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Mr Mac,
In reference to your last question, wondering how good we might have been with one code, the short answer is “very good”.
But caution is required. It is often forgotten we didn’t consistently beat Great Britain in rugby league until the 1960s. And it wasn’t until about the mid-80s that the win-loss ledger went in the black for us.
Certainly our team would have been consistently stronger from 1 to 15, especially the forwards, with those tough league nuts. Also, we wouldn’t have been rebuilding our team regularly, because of league defections. So I think we would have been on a par with NZ & SA. Any more than that, I’m not willing to commit!
Jerry said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
As a New Zealander I’m always a tad suspicious of the often stated/implied theory that Australia would have been (and would continue to be) an unbeatable juggernaut if it had access to the League talent over the years. True, some of those League players would have been good at Union also, but it’s a different game and – crucially the lack of a true international aspect means it’s very hard to judge just how good those League players actually are. As strong as the ARL/NRL leagues and State of Origin have been over the years, I don’t think they necessarily prove a player could make it in test rugby.
I mean, if the Kiwis – who draw from a talent pool a fraction of the size of Australian League – can remain competitive and pull off a win semi-regularly, I’m a bit sceptical on how much difference the Australian League talent pool would actually make.
Midfielder said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Sheek
Excellent nay Brilliant article …….. but some acknowledgement must also go to TT who in Franks article who mentioned the ARC’s as I posted after ….. that poor old bugger Sheeek will go into overdrive on “what could have been” so TT needs a pat on the back as well as Frank.
My post in Franks article only mentioned three players two of fairly recent vintage being Rickie Stuart & Russel Fairfax, both these players took to RL a tactical and creative ability that forever changed RL …….. they where certainly not the best ever to leave RU for RL…….. but IMO they gave RL something it did not have and what the modern game of RL is based on.
But I have a solution to your problem and have posted before …….. but will again ……… Rugby has affectively three different products these being RU / RL / Touch …..all three have different rules but share a common base. I would copy football when you have FIFA manage Fustal, Beach Football & the traditional game under one body making it easier to swap and accept the other.
Somehow the governing bodies of RU / RL & touch should get together and form a international rugby body with 3 separately running forms. This allows each group to keep its identity but for rugby as a whole to market itself in ways it cannot do now .. It would be much easier to get the Chinese to play touch than RU …… from touch an interest in RU begins as its all part of the same body.
Love the song …. good article
sheek said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
And of course, how much tougher would England & the Lions have been being able to call on those toughnut Northern England players?
sheek said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Jerry,
True, that’s why I advised caution. Australia would definitely have been stronger, but not necessarily as strong as we imagine. But instead of the All Blacks enjoying a 75-25% or 80-20% win/loss advantage in Bledisloe Cup matches, in reality it might otherwise be closer to 55-45% or 52-48%. But which way I’m not willing to speculate.
Midfielder,
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I like this kind of stuff!
Mr Mac said | November 20th 2008 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
I think there is also another question hidden here – What would Rugby be like if there was no split back in 1908 and instead the game evolved with the “league” ideas?
Would the world game be bigger?