By Julian Guyen
November 23rd 2008 @ 5:46am
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Record-breaking Springboks storm past England
Rugby world champions South Africa rounded off their 2008 campaign in style with a record-breaking 42-6 thrashing of England at Twickenham here Saturday.
This defeat represented England’s worst losing margin at Twickenham, surpassing the 21-point gap they conceded to New Zealand in a 41-20 defeat here two years ago.
It was also South Africa’s sixth win in [...]
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(15)
Arky said | November 23rd 2008 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Surprised the boks stepped up so far…hardly surprised by the English performance.
Sluggy said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:11am | Report comment
It puts the Wallabies win last week in perspective, too. England are not travelling well at the moment.
Australia are not getting it right at the moment, but they are winning ugly, and if its Deans’ plan for the Wallabies to develop the All Black’s habit of winning even when they play badly, he has succeeded. His new defensive pattern seems to be working, the set pieces are better, the tactical kicking is better. He has said a few times if you are winning, the team is happy and in the right frame of mind to improve in all areas. I expect him to stick with his selections and also expect to see the players’ “accuracy” as he refers to it improve over the next 12-18 months. They’ll need to, because the Boks and the AB’s new combinations are starting to gel.
Westy said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment
My current observation of English rugby is plenty of playing numbers, well run competitive club competition just short of local talent after the retirement of so many players….worse still some of the replacements are no spring chickens either.
Spiro Zavos said | November 23rd 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Clive Woodward has been the only England coach in the modern era to create a formidable England side that defeated the best of the SH rugby powers and then went on to win the 2003 RWC. The obsession with importing players not eligible to play for England into the mostr powerful club sides is white-anting the national side.
Toby Flood, for instance, has to compete for a starting position with his club with Derek Hougard, a journeyman Springbok with a huge boot. But how can Flood become functional at the Test level if he can’t play regularly at five-eights for his club?
Also, how can his game be improved, which it needs to be, without regular play and good coaching. Right now he is a one-trick pony who puts a bit of a spurt on whenever he gets the ball. There is no vision or control in his game, and this will only come with a coach who understands modern back play.
This gets me to the perennial point that the lack of real rugby intelligence leads to players like Daniel Cipriani being grievously over-rated as the best five-eights in the world and other such nonsense. A SH coach would see glaring defensive weaknesses in his play: his lack of vision in directing play: and his lack of skills, particularly with his kicking game. He was charged down twice by the Springboks, for instance.
Because of the vast chasm of ignorance there is the tendency to fantasise about players and coaches. Martin Johnson is remarkably inarticulate on rugby matters (try sitting through one of his speeche). He has never coached or selected a side. He may be England’s greatest forward ever. But it is obvious he doesn’t have a clue on how to select and prepare a team to play Test rugby.
I reckon the sooner there is a strict limitation of outside players in the English clubs the sooner England MAY put together a consistently competitive national side.
It would help, too, if the RFU made Jake White an offer he could’t refuse to pull the coaching strings for Johnson.
True Tah said | November 23rd 2008 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Spiro,
I thought the GP did have a restriction on foreigners.
For all his faults, I dont think Wilkinson would have let the Boks put 40+ on England.
I agree with Westy, England has got a healthy club scene, mass player numbers but it hasn’t translated at the top level aside from 2003.
Maybe Johnson needs to chose the players for 2011 and stick with them, this is how Woodward built a battle hardened side for 2003, it was forged, not created. But then the question is will Johnson be around till 2011?
Bob McGregor said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Wasn’t able to watch this game – was it on Foxtel? Saw all the other weekend Tests on Foxtel. Is the RFU [England to those who don't know England THINKS it owns the game and hence the name] still playing games and making viewers over pay to watch? The result ONLY confirms to me how England overachieved at RWC 2007.
Was a little surprised by extent of the win but what it does prove is that Scotland cannot be underestimated by anyone and with an ounce of luck should have beaten Sth Afr last week. Some readers might remember I forecast they were the dark horse to emerge from RWC 2007. Wallabies beware – especially if they continue to kick so poorly in defence and general play. All France’s points can be attributed to such short comings – either direct OR indirect. Had they someone who could kick penalty goals the result would have gone the other way.
sledgeandhammer said | November 23rd 2008 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
After watching the drivel served up this morning by the Wallabies (at least they tried to play rugby) and a very lazy french team that refused to play rugby, and instead tried to rely on long range penalty kicks, I was feeling a bit depressed. But reading that England were thrashed was a wonderful panacea and has brought a smile back to my face. By the way, who was the pompous Englishman commentating on channel 10 this morning??
Anyway, I remember a few months back all the English bloggers warning us to ‘just wait for the Autumn internationals’. Well we waited, and predictably the lillywhites wilted..
James Mortimer said | November 23rd 2008 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Hey Bob,
All of England’s games are broadcast on Setanta – and the same channel holds all the rights for the bulk of the european games, with the Six Nations and Guiness Premiership being on this channel.
That does unfortunately mean that the AB’s Grand Slam game against England will only be on Setanta.
Shame, that alot of the world will not get to see England get wiped by an All Black team likely to field the Wanganui open invitational school boys fifteen in order to get development going for the north island schoolboys.
Wavell Wakefieldfluff said | November 24th 2008 @ 12:00am | Report comment
Spiro, with all due respect your opinion of northern rugby seems outdated (please evrybody excuse the fluff, I made a mistake on my profile).
There is no obsession with importing foreign players. In fact there are fewer imported players than during the Woodard era. The top teams in the league have based their teams around young English talent and there is quite evidently a new ethos amongst the management of most GP teams.
Toby Flood does play regularly at 10. The only time he has played at 12 with Hougaard at 10 was for a meaningless EDF cup game. Hougaard was brought in as cover for Flood during the 6N. His arrival says more about the narrow coaching philosophy of Heynke Meyer than it does the ability of Toby Flood. Flood has been the form fly half of the GP and has played basically every game at 10. It shouldn’t be forgotten that he performed very well at 12 in the WC as well.
I don’t have a single friend who has said that Cipriani is the best 10 in the world, only that he has great potential. He has been placed in a hard situation. Do you honestly think that a Wallaby backline of Burgess – Beale – Tahu would be world beaters after 3 tests together?
Martin Johnson is widely ackowledged as a deep rugby thinker and a very articulate man. Are you aware of the EPS agreement? Johnson picked the form players of that period. He had no other option. If anything the senior players have let him down. He and Brian Smith are trying to implement a new style and to rid the forwards of that slow ball, safety-frist mentality. To that extent the last thing the RFU should ever do is make an offer to Jake White. Objective observation reveals a very poor overall record. SA were narrow and one-dimensional under his reign. It is no coincidence that the only person to offer Jake White anything in the realms of coaching or consultancy has been Eddie Jones.
Who Needs Melon said | November 24th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Where’s Benjamin today?
Nick (KIA) said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Ha. I was just coming on to post to say exactly that Melon…
Are you any relation of Blind Melon, the 1990’s alternative rock group?
Who Needs Melon said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Erm… no.
Name was originally “Bring Back Melon” – a call for the Wallaby forwards to stop playing like pumped up pretty boys and return to the raw strength and aggression shown by Owen Finegan (who is widely and affectionately known as “Melon”).
Recently changed to “Who Needs Melon” on account of recent performances by the Wallaby forwards.
Nick (KIA) said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Yes figured you may have been the other Melon, and am familiar with your namesakes work. Was always hard on the ABs and Crusaders when playing for Wallers and Brumbies. And he did have a big melon.
Ian Noble said | November 24th 2008 @ 10:39pm | Report comment
Spiro
Many have forgotten that Woodwards first tour was the infamous tour of hell when England lost 76-0 to the Ws, I think in Brisbane. In that squad was Wilko and a number of players who came through to win RWC2003. The RFU remained loyal to Woodward in spite of an inital outcry for his removal and the eventual result speaks for itself. How much time Johnson will be given is anybodys guess but he must be given a reasonable amount of time certainly up to 2011.
The demands of professional club rugby and International rugby are obviously different, but as Munster illustrated many club sides would give International sides a run for their money. Hopefully the new club/country agreement will work and the recent RFU incentive to reward clubs for bringing through English registered players will bear fruit in time.
You may also be missing the point about Cipriani and others of his generation. These new players may or may become world beaters, time will tell, but in terms of raising the profile of rugby in the UK it has been invaluable. At last we have young players who youngsters can look up to, other than Wilko, get an enormous amount of publicity and talk articulately about the game. Don’t underestimate the resilience of these guys including Cipriani, they may have had a baptism of fire but although some will be destroyed by the publicity others will rise above it and come out the other side. I suspect Cipriani with his background of having to fight against the odds will be one of them, certainly no better judge than Ian McGeechan thinks so in an interview yesterday.
Colin N said | November 25th 2008 @ 1:50am | Report comment
“Toby Flood, for instance, has to compete for a starting position with his club with Derek Hougard, a journeyman Springbok with a huge boot. But how can Flood become functional at the Test level if he can’t play regularly at five-eights for his club?”
Get a better example than that because Toby Flood is the first choice fly-half at Leicester, with Mauger (when he’s not injured) at 12. Houggard’s only playing because guess what Spiro, Flood is in the England Elite squad, so he can’t play for Leicester at the same time as England.
I know this is a SH site and some have a limited knowledge of the NH game (aka Spiro) but can anyone find examples of foreigners stopping a very good young English player getting regular first team action in the GP.
Regarding Cipriani, he has been overrated by the press, but not by the fans. Also he’s only just come back from injury and when he played last year, he was brilliant against Ireland, before the injury came. You’ve just got to give him time. It also doesn’t help when the half-backs aren’t getting good ball from the forwards, although that could partly be attributed to some cynical play by the South Africans, like lying on the wrongside constantly. Something that the referees chief says is a problem in the NH, not the SH. Fair play though, they got away with it.
It’s amazing how when you win a world cup, you are suddenly a world beater. Take Jake White for example. I’ve always been a fan of his but he was slated a year before the world cup and nearly lost his job.