By Adrian Musolino
November 23rd 2008 @ 6:04am
Storm clouds loom for Wellington Phoenix
Asian Football Confederation president Mohamed Bin Hammam caused a storm following his interview on The World Game last Sunday on the big issues of A–League imports and relegation and promotion.
But the biggest shocks were felt in Wellington as the future of the Phoenix was put in grave doubt with, according to the AFC, a year set for their exclusion.
According to the president, the FFA won’t be allowed to include a foreign team in its league beyond 2011.
While the comments shocked the Australian football community, imagine how the owners, players and fans of the Phoenix felt?
And it appears nothing the club can do will change the AFC’s stance.
Even if they attracted 30,000 fans each week and played champagne football, it wouldn’t matter.
If anything, success, for example earning a place in the Asian Champions League, would more than likely enrage the AFC. After all, New Zealand remains part of Oceania.
It’s like being permanently banished from a country you once made a living in for having what is now considered the wrong passport.
If the Phoenix were booted out of the A–League, it would be a devastating blow for football across the Tasman and throughout Oceania – perhaps a fatal blow.
Bear in mind just how important Wellington is to the national team, the All Whites. Of the current Kiwi squad, the Phoenix has eleven players representing their nation.
With no professional league in New Zealand, the avenue for Kiwis to play in a competitive league diminishes.
Wellington’s presence in the A–League is one of the few remaining links Australia has with Oceania.
Including a Kiwi team was part of the deal to ensure Australia continued to support Oceania, with the OFC not standing in the way of Australia’s Asia move.
But it is an anomaly of the Australian league to have a team from New Zealand, especially a team from a country in a different confederation.
Wellington’s matches against their A–League rivals don’t recreate the ANZAC rivalry we see so often at the national level of a variety of sports.
It also improves the chances of the likes of West Sydney, Wollongong, Canberra, Tasmania and a second Victorian outfit as the A League looks to expand to 12 teams in 2010-11 and possibly 14 teams in 2011-12.
Without Wellington all of the bidders could be accommodated.
While this would be beneficial for the local game, we should not forget the responsibility we have to New Zealand and Oceania. And if this proposal is upheld, FIFA and the FFA should ensure it continues to assist Oceania somehow, otherwise the confederation will sink further into the backwater of international football.
The Phoenix is hopeful the FFA, and possibly FIFA, whose position on the matter remains ambiguous, will back the team.
“I’ve talked to Ben Buckley today and we’ve left it with the FFA. I believe they will bring the matter up at the next AFC meeting in the next couple of weeks,” said chief executive Tony Pignata
The only solution would appear to be the fast tracking of some decision regarding the future of Oceania.
Should it be absorbed into Asia?
The concern is how this would affect the tiny Island nations and their development.
Perhaps as part of Asia, the AFC and FIFA will overlook this issue. It would certainly alleviate the embarrassment of the AFC if the Phoenix does make it into the ACL one day.
Either way, the Phoenix deserves to have a definitive answer as soon as possible and FIFA must address the future of the forgotten Oceania.
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Dickroo said | November 23rd 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment
the only way for Oceania to develop this sport is being bracketed by AFC.
Good for them – more competitions
Good for us – possible a 16 teams A-league and start to think relegation setup in 5 years
Good for AFC – more members and have total 5 seats in the World Cup final
Oceania along is a No Through Road.
Kazama said | November 23rd 2008 @ 8:41am | Report comment
I think it is absolutely vital we keep the Phoenix in the A-League. To begin with, it is hardly an anomaly confined to Australia to have a foreign team in the league – you have Monaco playing in the French system; Cardiff, Wrexham, Swansea etc playing in the English league system (and let’s not forget about Celtic and Rangers trying to join as well); FC Vaduz of Liechtenstein playing in the Swiss system; Australian teams used to play in the Singapore league; Canadian teams play in most of America’s professional sporting leagues, including football – much like we have NZ teams in a few of our other professional leagues; finally, you now have Mexican teams playing in the Copa Libertadores – so there you have teams from CONCACAF playing in the CONMEBOL club championships!
We need a team from NZ as much as they need us because it gives us access to a whole new talent pool and a stable fan base. To kick them out would be to cut ourselves off from an opportunity to have a team capable of sustaining itself (based on the evidence seen so far). If we have to have a second tier like MbH demands, I fail to see how we can achieve that with the limited amount of quality players and football-hungry fans in this nation. Australia IMO is incapable of having a two-tier league system without help not only from New Zealand but also our SE Asian neighbours. MbH has already killed off any hopes of us including a team from the likes of Singapore or Indonesia, yet continues to demand that we expand to a two-tier system. Now he is demanding we can’t have help from NZ either – so exactly how are we going to accomplish his wishes on our own?
I think that MbH has used us to get us into Asia and keep his World Cup spot safe from falling into the OFC’s hands and now he wants us to die off, because IMO that’s what would happen if he got his wish and imposed a two-tier system on us – this league would die very quickly. To me it is no coincidence that he starts making demands of us at a time when we have an A-League team making the ACL final (and representing AFC at the Club World Cup) and the Socceroos close to snaring one of the AFC’s World Cup Finals berths.
On the other side of the coin, NZ and the OFC definitely need to have the Phoenix. I think if we are really keeping true to our catchcry of being “The World Game,” FIFA and all of the confederations need to do their part in trying to keep the whole world a part of our game. To kill off the Phoenix, the only professional club in the OFC, would be a move against this mentality. My hope is that FIFA will put MbH in his place and tell him that we need the Phoenix – and perhaps other teams from the OFC – in the A-League because it the only hope for the survival of football in that region is exposure to professional football and the opportunities having a professional team representing you brings, like the visit of the LA Galaxy last season.
I think also that the OFC must join the AFC as soon as possible if we want to save those nations from being cut off from the WORLD game forever. It would mean these nations would be getting more football and better treatment from FIFA (as being part of a more important confederation), and that can only be a good thing for our sport. Also it would take away the “we’re helping another confederation” argument, which to me is moot anyway considering those Mexican teams playing in the South American club championships.
FIFA is supposed to be all about fair play and showing that our sport unlike any other brings the whole world together. I fail to see how MbH’s stance on the Phoenix is anything but betraying that mindset. MbH needs to stop this political rubbish at once and remember that as a head of a confederation and a FIFA power player he has a responsibilty to help the game develop where possible, and that isn’t limited to his own confederation or vested interests; I question whether these interests include Australia given the demands he has made.
Lastly, I was under the impression that the Phoenix aren’t allowed to play in the AFC Champions League if they qualify. I think that is why they tried to enter themselves in the OFC play-offs to try to represent their confederation at the Club World Cup.
Midfielder said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Kazama
Well put and your post is how I feel as well.
Westy said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Bluntly ….MBH should be more concerned about the state of the game in the middle of Asia…………club football in China suffers from chronic corruption and is still underdeveloped…….as to South east Asia it is still a basket case…..Cambodia/Thailand / Burma/ …there is real potential in Vietnam but again not much direction………….of all the regions that need a sub regional club competition it is South East Asia………just for your information MBH is not keen on this either….India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/ is a backwater………..all our strength in Asia apart from ourselves is Northern Asia…Japan and South Korea..across towards the middle east it is Iran and Iraq………..some of the Arabian teams seem to have a very healthy quota of imports
Be careful of this bloke ……his performance so far and future plans for football in greater Asia is very selective and has noi done much so far. Frank got us in Asia……MBH accepted because our local strength helped him push the perceived strength of Asia…and simply the security of his position.
dasilva said | November 23rd 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
“In 1994, in a bid to add some spice to the Premier League and generate increased fan interest, two teams from Australia were invited to participate – the Perth Kangaroos and the Darwin Cubs.”
So Singapore invited the Australian team who were from different confederation to play in their league and must have got permision from the AFC for mostly there own benefit. THe Perth Kangaroos end up winning the league which led to the formation of Perth Glory. So letting an OCeania side playing in an Asian League is not unprecedented and has happen before. So why can’t us Australians invite New Zealand sides to play in the A-league.
If we kick out Wellington Pheonix then Football in New Zealand OCeania will be killed and Australia can’t expect to abandon their obligation to OFC. THey gave us permission to leave OFC only under the conditions that we still help them develop the game in their region. THey could have easily said no and left us here to rot in OCeania. If we cut off oceania it’s like we used OFC and give nothing back to them.
“Lastly, I was under the impression that the Phoenix aren’t allowed to play in the AFC Champions League if they qualify. I think that is why they tried to enter themselves in the OFC play-offs to try to represent their confederation at the Club World Cup.”
It’s funny that Oceania football relies so much on Wellington Pheonix and A-league but they wouldn’t let Wellington Pheonix enter the OFC champions league to participate in the Club WOrld Championship even though they are much superior team then that Waiketere United (defeated them 7-0 in a practice match). It seems to me that Wellington Pheonix aren’t even appreciated within OCeania.
Koala Bear said | November 23rd 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Asian Football Confederation president Mohamed Bin Hammam has put the kibosh on the Nix and the future looks certainly unfavourable for them competing in next year HAL.. What was he thinking..? To come out with a statement like that, half way in the 2008-2009 season.. Bloody stupid indeed; I hope this will not affect the attendances in Wellington…
However, it highlights the real important issues to me and that is the half place in the FIFA world Cup of Oceania.. And effectively that NZ in itself has 2 places for NZ clubs to compete in the World club cup championship (on paper) ..
Time to disband the Oceania Confederation as it has been a failure as a confederation. Instead of growing it has been weight around the neck in the region.. It is time for Asia to absorb the Oceania Confederation with its half spot into the WCs into the Asian region..
So effectively they can have some meaningful international events with the lesser teams of Asia at least. Some sort of second tier system in Asia to compete with minnows .. This will help the entire Asia-South Pacific region.. This will allow also teams to from the South Pacific to become part of the HAL in the future… Providing they tick all the right boxes..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Ronnie from Lonnie said | November 23rd 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Here! Here! Well said. Absolutely agree that Oceania should be part of the AFC, which should then be broken into Western and Eastern (Asia/Pacific) Divisions.
WELL SAID, ALL.
Oceania is going nowhere by itself.
The Asian confederation is, geographically, way too big.
And why not merge CONMEBOL and CONCACAF?
CONMEBOL has only 10 teams.
CONCACAF countries really need that extra competion that CONMEBOL can provide.
That means the confederations are:
Europe
Africa
Asia: West Asia / Asia/Pacific
The Americas
OOOPS – forgot about football politics. Auckland (HQ for Oceania) and New York (HQ for CONCACAF) will throw hissy fits over this idea. Oh dear. Status quo will remain.
dasilva said | November 23rd 2008 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
I think the AFC will throw a hissy fit rather then NZ and OFC in joining AFC. I think AFC will consider OFC as an extra burden to the confederation who are already struggling to deal with developing countries in the region.
THe only way OFC will join AFC is for FIFA to force OFC and AFC to merge. I don’t believe AFC will see any benefit to themselves in NZ joining the confederation.
sheek said | November 23rd 2008 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
I’m not a main stream football fan, but I found it odd a NZ team could compete in the A-League, when Australia had departed Oceania to join the AFC. Now it seems, the matter is coming to a head.
Putting emotion aside, there is no other equivalent I’m aware of in the football world. Why should FIFA make exceptions in the Australia/New Zealand situation? It’s unfortunate, but NZ belongs to Oceania & Australia to Asia. Unless Oceania is merged into Asia, it’s likely they (NZ clubs) will be cut adrift.
Unless as Dasilva says, AFC find it in their heart to incorporate OFC. Life isn’t fair, but this the reality.
dasilva said | November 23rd 2008 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
sheek – I and Kazama has pointed out exceptions to the rules of sides playing in different countries national league. Australian sides have played in the Singaporean League back in 1994 before Australia join Asia so an Oceania side playing in an Asian Leagues has happen before. Therefore New Zealand playing in the A-league is not unprecedented and it’s not strange.
It just seems that Bin Hammen just has a problem with it perhaps because New Zealand will probably compete with Asian sides for the World Cup place.
Midfielder said | November 23rd 2008 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
I don’t think the AFC will welcome with open arms Oceania …….. a suggestion was made by Johnny Warren when Australia was trapped in Asia …….. for the winner of Oceania to go into the AFC WCQ at some stage maybe the last 24 and use the half place at the World Cup Oceania has as the olive branch to get in.
On the Nix they do bring a lot to the table …. but most of its is potential ….. maybe the Nix need to achieve some of NZ potential, and jump tho some hurdles to stay in.
But at this stage we can only hope for clam heads can bring this to a positive and the Nixs can stay in.
James Ward said | November 24th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
I like the suggestion made by Johnny Warren suggestion. Otherwise the Oceania tiny nations will just be smashed by the might of Asia. There should be some sort of relationship built between the AFC and Oceania. Makes perfect sense.
As for the Phoenix, I’m still unconvinced if they should be in the HAL, especially if there is an Aussie bidder who can take that place.
As the article says the priority is to work out the future of Oceania.
Westy said | November 24th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Phoenix is only two points out of the top four. They have beaten Sydney FC twice this year…..the elephant in the room…..representing nearly a quarter of Australia’s population….no one wants to talk about…. and we worried about Phoenix.
James Ward said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
If the Phoenix won the A – League, would that be seen as negative by people here in Australia when you think the game is still trying to establish itself in Australians hearts and minds?
Ronnie from Lonnie said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Midfielder – you’re most probably right. Why would the AFC want to acquire a basketcase? FIFA would probably have to offer a generous financial incentive to get the AFC’s willingness to absorb Oceania.
Fozzie made a few good points on TWG yesterday arvo. Perhaps the FFA should bring in a rules that says each HAL club should have on it’s books 1 or 2 playesr from Oceania – potentially 14 or 28 players in a 14 team comp.
Backers of Canberra Utd. are correct – why should NZ’s capital have a team when Australia’s doesn’t? Take out Wellington and the way is clear for Canberra or even Tasmania to take up licences.
James Ward said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too. It’s great having Wellington but if Canberra etc could come in that would be better.
I know Phoenix would probably be better off than a fledgling team but the priority should be sorting out Oceania, strengthen it then there could be a better New Zealand league and the Wellington Phoenix could play A League teams in the Asian Champions League.
Towser said | November 24th 2008 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Pretty black & white to me regardless of peoples opinions for & against. MBH has said no.MBH calls the shots we follow.
Got to wonder what sort of competition has a team from another countries capital before its own capital.
English FA ” look lads we’d better kick London teams out of the EPL & invite a few Frog teams in.particularly from Paris,you know for the good of the region.”
Reply-unptrintable.
Why do we have an obligation to the Kiwis. No other football country in the world gives a stuff about helping another & certainly wouldn’t wish to give them an advantage in football terms.
Sepps benevolent Geneva Charity mob are voted in “to spread the Luvvv” of football around the world. Leave it to them.
Lets face it Football in Australia still needs all the “Luvvv” it can give it self for quite a while after years of self loathing.
dasilva said | November 24th 2008 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
Towser
“MBH has said no.MBH calls the shots we follow.”
Not necessarily. FIFA and hence Sepp Blatter calls the shot. I doubt that MBH views are approved by FIFA. Removing Wellington Phoenix from the A-league will kill off New Zealand Football and Oceania football a long with it. It is impossible for New Zealand to have there own professional league. Seriously this is not the type of thing that FIFA will approve of. I seriously doubt that MBH comments will turn out to be true. If MBH is adamant that Wellington should be removed from the A-league then I believe that FFA/Wellington/NZ Football should take this up to FIFA. I don’t believe that FIFA will allow the death of NZ football to happen.
Why do we have an obligation to the Kiwis?
Simple OFC allowed Australia to leave under conditions that Australia continue to help OCeania. FIFA allowed Australia to join AFC under conditions to help Oceania. That’s why we have an obligation to help Oceania. Now AFC wants Australia to abandon that obligation because that might hurt AFC (as NZ is competing with Asian side for the World Cup spot). Like I said before I seriously doubt that FIFA would want Australia to abandon our obligation to help Oceania and it will be interesting to see how they respond to this. I believe in the end it will be turn out that MBH was out of line and Wellington will keep on playing on.
dasilva said | November 24th 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Canberra was only the capital of Australia as people from Victoria and NSW refuse to let the other states win due to interstate rivalry (and shear pettyness) by having a capital city in MElbourne or Sydney. I may sound desrespectful to Canberra but it pretty much became the capital in the same reason why Frank Farina or Jimmy Shoulder became coach of the National team (two opposing party refuse to let the other party choice to win so in the end we end up with an option that neither party is happy with) Canberra may be capital but it’s not as culturally important to Australia as London is to UK. People think of Australia they think of Melbourne or Sydney not Canberra. THere’s nothing wrong in having a national league without canberra.
Towser said | November 24th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
dasilva
Explain what you mean by “I seriously doubt that MBH comments will turn out to be true”.
How can you doubt what came out of his mouth. He was completely direct about it. What he said could not be mistaken. The Kiwis will be out.
On the subject of Canberra . Regardless of the argument that it is wishy washy it is the capital. . What sort of self respecting country has another countries team from their capital aheads of its own. It beggars the question at what stage does this country start to respect what has been built by its own history . Canberra has a legitimate right to qualify as the capital. Sure it doesn’t have cultural pouring out of 10,000 art galleries & museums but it is the seat of government with its own identity. Google for the capital of Australia it wont show Melbourne or Sydney despite the bunfight they had.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 24th 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Towser, MBH isn’t the final word at the AFC and this will probably come down to a FIFA decision.
I am more concerned with the implications that this type of comment has for smaller nations than I am for Wellington, even though I strongly believe we are better off with Wellington in than out.
MBH has effectively said that his position is that countries such as Bhutan, East Timor, Mongolia should not be able to participate in professional football. There are many countries in Asia which are either too small or poor (or both) to support professional leagues. However they may have the capacity to field one or two teams in a larger neighbouring competition. I think sometimes when we analyze these comments people need to look at them in an Asia wide perspective and not just in the context of the A-League.
dasilva said | November 24th 2008 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
I have no doubt that MBH wants NZ to be kicked out. The question is that does his views represent FIFA views as Wellington or NZ side playing in the A-league was decided by FIFA. AFC had nothing to do with it. Can Bin Hammen just kick out Wellington from the A-league. Maybe but I find it strange that FIFA wanted Australia to continue to help out Oceania and then approve of killing off NZ football and I don’t believe they would allow MBH to remove Wellington from the Aleague.
Canberra
Canberra is the capital city of Australia but it has the population of a minor city of Australia. It’s quite a unique thing about Australia where the capital of the country is a rather minor city. Nevertheless that’s what it is – a minor city. Sure every other country in the world treat their capital with more reverance but most capital city in the world are generally the most populous city and the cultural centre of the country. That’s why Cricket, AFL, Basketball doesn’t have canberra in the national league. It’s not a prerequisite in having Canberra in the national league of any sport. In fact Cricket and Basketball had Canberra in the league and they all folded.
Canberra should be treated as any other Aleague applicants and not be given special treatment because it is the capital. If Canberra becomes a club in the A-league – will it have the population and fans to support it. Maybe but history has shown it is a risky thing.
I’m not against Canberra being in A-league I just don’t believe that a national league MUST have Canberra to be credible. Many leagues don’t have Canberra, many leagues tried to have canberra and then found out it didn’t have the population to support it and failed . It’s not a prerequisuite for the league to be credible and it’s not a big deal if a-league has Canberra or not.
Towser said | November 24th 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Ben of Phenom Penh
Personally I believe there is not the back up for yours & dasilvas statement that FIFA will overule MBH. If FIFA did this to UEFA there would be problems. Dont have time today but will check this out further tomorrow to see who holds sway on this.
Dasilva
On Canberra. Disagree with you completely for the reasons I gave. So we’ll have to part ways on this.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 24th 2008 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
Cheers Towser. I guess only time will tell.
dasilva said | November 24th 2008 @ 6:07pm | Report comment
Towser
Agree to disagree
Saying that I would like Canberra to be in the A-league. It’s a nice symbolic thing to be one of the few leagues in Australia to have the capital city in the league. I just hope it’s get there by merit rather then a romantic “wouldn’t be nice” to have a capital city in the A-league.
True Tah said | November 24th 2008 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
das,
having a minor city as our capital is not unique to Australia. Take a look at the following countries, and you would be hard pressed to say that the nations capital is the pre-eminent city in that nation.
USA – Washington
Brazil – Brasilia
Canada – Ottawa
NZ – Wellington
Anyway, from what I have read, Canberra have already secured a stack of funding, including $2.5 from ACT Government and $2m from investors – should be a walk in the park to get admitted.
dasilva said | November 24th 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
True Tah
From what I heard I think the only obstacle for Canberra is the amount of guarantee memberships as the financial backing was covered. I think only recently they have got past the minimum required of members for an A-league bid. in anycase good luck to canberra. It’s nice to have extra team in the A-league and football a long with rugby will be one of the few leagues to have canberra.
Yes Australia isn’t the only country to have not the most prominant city as a capital. So I guess it isn’t that unique. However I would still say that Canberra is a more minor city in respective to Australia then all of the other city you mention. Canberra is the 8th most populous city in Australia and has only 300 k living there. Canberra is very very small for a capital city even compared to other countries that have “minor city” as capital.
My only point is that due to Canberra being a minor city the league doesn’t need to have a capital city to be credible unlike other countries such as UK , Spain, Italy etc.
Millster said | November 25th 2008 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Such an interesting issue.
On the one hand, the WCQ playoff structure (where the 5th best team in Asia plays the OFC team for entry to the WC) means that we are direct confederation level competitors to NZ. On that basis we have no interest in helping them.
On the other hand we have an obligation, and also a general interest in the talent and standards of football in the south western pacific.
Short of the proposed OFC-AFC merge (and I agree if this happened the AFC would need to split into conferences to manage itself) I think Fozzie’s suggestion that our obligation is changed to something like each HAL club having an Oceania player in their structure, perhaps with some salary cap relief to compensate. Structurally the continued existence of the Phoenix is untenable in my view and I see the basic point that MBH is making.
On a final note, it is incorrect to call Canberra a minor city. It is a city of 350000 people (counting Queanbeyan as part of it) and growing; most definitely on par with Wollongong, Newcastle, Townsville etc. Many European cities boasting famous football clubs are based in cities with similar kinds of population. This is not to indicate some kind of particular support for the Canberra bid, but lets not underplay the importance of that city in Australia guys.
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment
I don’t think Fozzie’s idea will work. I think the OFC is much better off having a professional team represent them than a smattering of professional players. Karembu’s stellar career seemingly hasn’t done much for the development of football in New Caledonia, so why would having a few Kiwis running around in the A-League be any different?
As for Canberra, just because I am for Wellington being in the A-League doesn’t mean I think that Aussie cities should miss out in their place. I spoke in my post above that I felt having Wellington (and perhaps another one or two Kiwi teams) would help us make a larger league than we’d be able to on our own. I believe we will struggle to expand the A-League beyond 12 clubs if we have only Aussie teams. So, which would we rather have – a 12 team league with only Aussie teams, or a 16+ team league with clubs from NZ, SE Asia, etc? This is not Europe, we need to think outside of the square if we want a quality professional league system here. Hopefully MbH will be succeeded by a more open-minded president.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Well Millster
I guess I’m just used to Australian referring to Adelaide with a population of 1.2 million to be considered a “minor city’ that 350k must be really minor.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Kazama
Agreed
I would like A-league to eventually incorporate teams from SE asia in the near future.
Also if we do have a second division. We definitely need more teams than just Australian clubs to fill it.
Koala Bear said | November 25th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Millster,
normally I never disagree with what you write; wheater it’s your views on he Aluminium WC or the Clayton’s World Clay Pot.. But to suggest that it’s the responsibility for each HAL clubs to be forced to include a player into the HAL is not on …
We should support the absorption of Oceania into the Asian Confederation. Because with two thirds of the world now living in the Asian region and the added South Pacific region, we will gain more voting power for Asia…
This would mean that we in Asia could win every FIFA world cup bid forthwith, which would mean Australia the only country in the region apart from Japan and Korea in the Asian Confederation would dominate the FIFA world cup tournaments like UEFA have done in the past…
Can you see it laddie; a world cup in Australia every 12 years.?.. Now I would like to see that…. 
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
KB, you should tell that to MbH. He might jump on board if it means more power for him to abuse.
Koala Bear said | November 25th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Kazama,
I’m working on it…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Greg Russell said | November 25th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Firstly, the position of the Phoenix is defended by citing other cases of clubs playing outside their country, for example Cardiff (Wales) playing in the Championship (England). However there is one crucial difference: in all these cases, the club is still playing in the same confederation. Wellington is playing not only in a different country but in a different confederation. This makes its position hard to defend against Bin Hammam. (And let me stress in writing this that I am 100% behind NZ having a team in the A-League).
Secondly, the complete irrationality of the position of the Phoenix is summarized by them being the only club in world football without a pathway to the Club World Cup: as a team based in New Zealand they are not allowed to represent the A-League in the ACL, and nor can they qualify for the O-League, as they do not play in an Oceania competition. (Incidentally, they recently beat Waitakere United 7-0 in a match that was meant to help prepare the Auckland club for the upcoming Club World Cup – this pretty much says it all about the standard of club soccer in Oceania.)
Thirdly, we all know that Oceania was a basket case even before Australia left it, so now it is just a total nut-job. Why can’t someone put it out of its misery? The All Whites have very little identity because they so rarely play meaningful opposition. They would benefit even more from being in Asia than Australia has.
Finally, those who read Jesse’s postings would have gained an insight into the strange (for us) world of Asian football politics. One has to ask: what is Bin Hammam really getting at with his comments? There is obviously a little bit of apprehension that because of the Phoenix playing in the A-League, New Zealand will be more competitive in their playoff with Asia’s 5th-placed team for a spot in South Africa. But I suspect this is a minor issue. If the Phoenix didn’t exist, then the best NZ players in it (e.g. Shane Smeltz, Tony Lockhead) would without doubt be playing at either another A-League club or a professional club elsewhere in the world. So it’s debatable whether the Phoenix raise the standard of the All Whites.
What I suspect Bin Hammam is really getting at is Oceania’s place in the scheme of things. Those who have recently followed the women’s U17 WCs, U20 WCs and Olympics will have noticed that NZ was at all three, while other leading Asian teams did not qualify (e.g. Australia was not at any of these). Especially with Australia now out of Oceania, it is being noticed that an Oceania team is taking a spot at these WCs (often out of just 16 spots in all), and that that spot might otherwise go to Asia if Oceania did not exist.
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Greg Russell: “…in all these cases, the club is still playing in the same confederation.”
Both dasliva and I mentioned Australian teams playing in the Singapore league – back when we were still in the OFC. As I also referenced, you now have Mexican teams (from CONCACAF) playing in the Copa Libertadores, the CONMEBOL championship. This would be like inviting Chelsea and Man United to play in the ACL, which would be ridiculous, yet FIFA have endorsed it. You also have the crazy case of South Africa playing World Cup qualifiers despite the fact that they’ve already qualified as host nation! So I don’t think it is such a stretch for us to have a team from the OFC in our league.
I think the obvious way for MbH to protect Asia’s interests is to dissolve the OFC and bring it into the AFC. It’s a pity we didn’t try to do that when Sepp Blatter handed the OFC the automatic World Cup Finals spot – before taking it back when CONMEBOL threw a tantrum. The AFC would have drooled over pinching that extra spot from CONMEBOL and would have paid a price as hefty as taking over the OFC to get it, and once in the hands of a more powerful body like the AFC it probably would not have been as easy for Sepp to reverse the decision. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing though. Right now if the AFC wants to eliminate the OFC’s threat to its WC spots (at all levels) it has two choices – get the OFC to join up, or let the OFC bleed to death. Unfortunately it seems to have picked the latter.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
“If the Phoenix didn’t exist, then the best NZ players in it (e.g. Shane Smeltz, Tony Lockhead) would without doubt be playing at either another A-League club or a professional club elsewhere in the world. So it’s debatable whether the Phoenix raise the standard of the All Whites.”
Killing off Wellington Phoenix may not remove the threat of NZ for this WCQ but it will remove the threat of NZ in WCQ for 2014, 2018 and any later World Cup.
Letting Oceania bleed to death is a lot more easier then letting OFC joining them. The biggest advantage of OFC joining Asia is the extra half a spot for the World Cup. However it’s far more easier getting that 1/2 if you kill off the competition and ensure that the best Oceania side is uncompetitive (I expect New Zealand to lose badly to the 5th best Asian side). So AFC get’s the 1/2 a spot anyway and they don’t have to spend money and resorces in developing the region in Oceania.
It’s a win win scenario for AFC.
Towser said | November 25th 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
http://www.the-afc.com/eng/competitions/staticInfo.jsp_511-ACL2008rg.html
Have been searching to find as I said yesterday who holds sway on this matter(ie Phoenix in or out). No real luck in finding a clear cut answer. However have found the regulations for the AFC Champions League(above), from which it is absolutely clear that the Phoenix can never(whilst Oceania exists as a seperate confederation) participate.
So MBH was emphatic on SBS about the Phoenix & their use by date. Even if FIFA are able to overule the AFC on this why would they? Lets go back to the fact that if we want to progress as a Football nation we are shackled to the AFC. Some people in Australia may wish to believe that somehow we can dictate terms in this relationship. “Yer Dreamin”.
So MBH & the AFC have their masterplan to professionalise Football in Asia. We are one of the few nations with the economy to support a professional League so will be a major part of the AFC’s plans. Part of the criteria to obtain more spots in the ACL is an increase in teams. Yet looking at it from the AFC’s perspective again, say we have a 12 team league perhaps the minimum required to allow 4 Australian teams. yet one of those is the Phoenix. Not to hard to imagine MBH & Co saying our rules state that your only allowed 4 teams if all clubs in the A-League are Australian.
MBH then puts this to FIFA in relation to the AFC’s master plan & says the FFA are blocking our expansion plans(of which they are part) by continuing to accomadate the Phoenix.
No brainer FIFA will applaud the AFC’s initiative & support them all the way.
THe issue of whether NZ & Oceania generally should be a part of the AFC is another matter entirely, but on the above subject FIFA will back MBH all the way.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Towser
I just believe that FFA should stick up for NZ football and argue it’s case for Wellington to remain in the A League. They should try to convince AFC and FIFA in the merits of a NZ in A-league because I think that is the right and fair thing to do. No one saying that Australia should dictate terms but we should try to argue for our best interest. Obviously if they rules otherwise then we have to respect the ruling but I don’t think we should do nothing and just let NZ football die without even TRYING.
However that may be loophole and a way Wellington Phoenix can get around this. The phoenix will never be allowed into ACL by that regulations and they may be kick out by 2011 if they remain a NZ club. However there are talks by Phoenix that they will turn themselves in an Australian club that is based in Wellington
“We’re in the process of talking with the FFA about transferring the A-League licence from NZ Football to Wellington Phoenix,” club chief executive Tony Pignata said.
“If that happens we would effectively become an Aussie club that lives in New Zealand and whether New Zealand becomes part of Asia or not would be less relevant to us.
I wonder if that will work and will AFC buy that . Would that means that NZ players will be considered foreign players to play for Wellington?
Towser said | November 25th 2008 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
dasilva
Some interesting arm wrestles ahead methinks on this subject.
Personally I hope it is sorted quickly one way or another .
Procrastination serves none of the parties involved.
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
dasilva – I’d say the AFC would have to allow it. I doubt they’d be trying it if they didn’t think it would let them overcome all of this political nonsense. Hopefully it works. It may open up the back door and let us bring in teams from Singapore etc.
Towser – First you say we are not in a position to dictate terms, but then you (correctly) say we are crucial to the AFC’s plans to professionalise Asian football. We are the #1 nation in Asia at the moment, so I think that gives us enough leverage not to be one of MbH’s puppets. I think the FFA should stand their ground here and back the Phoenix. How far will MbH push us? Will he risk letting us go back to the OFC and pinching one of their World Cup spots every four years? Australia’s acceptance into Asia was hardly a selfless act by the AFC. IMO MbH should be more worried about FIFA than we should of him and his agenda.
James Ward said | November 25th 2008 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
It’s a tough issue to get a grip on. The priority is sorting out Oceania. If Oceania was absorbed into Asia, would the AFC have an issue with Wellington in the A – League?
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Although I agree with the sentiments kazama and I believe we should fight for NZ status in the a-league.
But risking sending us back to OFC? No way. NZ aren’t worth that much.
Although I agree that AFC accepting Australia was of mutual benefit. Australia has regular competitions and save us from football isolation and AFC has an extra footballing powerhouse, keep a WC 4.5 spot and help assist professionalising Asian Football. Nevertheless we need AFC more then AFC needs us and they were going pretty fine without us. We should used whatever influence we have to fight for our interest but in the end we have to play ball when the final decision is made whether we like it or not.
I will be pretty shock if we give an ultimatum to Bin Hammen saying “Either let us keep Wellington Phoenix in the A-league or we’ll leave AFC join Oceania”.
James Ward said | November 25th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
Yeah I agree that it isn’t the sort of issue that will ruin the relationship between Australia and the AFC but you have to wonder what his exact agenda is in making those comments.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
I think the agenda is simple James Ward. New Zealand are competing with Asia for the 5th world cup spot and Australia which is a member of AFC are assisting New zealand in doing that. Admittingly there is a strong conflict of interest there but I think “for the good of the game” this has to happen.
James Ward said | November 25th 2008 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
Yeah. You just hope FIFA, AFC and even the FFA don’t forget their obligation to Oceania. It makes perfect sense for it to be absorbed into the AFC and I’m sure the AFC will get some benefits from having them – the extra World Cup spot, larger political backing etc.
But there would be a lot of work for them to do to sort out the OFC mess.
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
dasilva – I understand your concerns, but a) it’s not how much NZ is ‘worth,’ it is the principle. Every country deserves exposure to professional football. And we wouldn’t be fighting for NZ alone, we’d be fighting for all of the other nations MbH wants to ignore (outlined by Ben in his first post).
b) We won’t give MbH a threat. I was speaking from his perspective, wondering if the thought would enter his mind. We need them more than they need us, but they still benefit from us being in the AFC and MbH knows it. Don’t underestimate the importance of the World Cup Finals spot we are carrying for them, or the fact that when we go to places like Holland and win we are flying the flag for them. I wonder if they would have been able to redevelop the ACL without us as the fourth power in the East? It probably tears MbH’s guts out that we’re on track to qualify for 2010 – but it’d hurt him even more if we took the AFC’s last spot as an OFC rep (like we should have in 1997). So while we won’t go as far as I may have suggested, I’d still like to see us play hardball here and bring FIFA into the equation. I don’t want to see the FFA simply roll over on MbH’s command.
Hopefully the Phoenix will get through the back door as an “Australian” club like we discussed above and any political posturing will be mooted. Either that or a FIFA ruling would be the only way to keep the Phoenix alive. Even if NZ became part of the AFC it wouldn’t be enough because MbH has already stated we can’t have teams from other AFC member nations either.
Kazama said | November 25th 2008 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
James Ward: “It makes perfect sense for [the OFC] to be absorbed into the AFC…”
Unfortunately James, as has been highlighted several times in this discussion, perfect sense rarely enters the thought process in either politics or football – and this issue features both.
dasilva said | November 25th 2008 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
About OFC merging AFC.
I think there is perfectly legitimate reasons why AFC wouldn’t want that to happen despite being “good for the game” for reason I mention above (how oceania countries will be a burden as no oceania country has a professional league and how it’s more easier beating NZ in 5th place play off and getting the 5th spot then for the confederation to merge and then spend millions of money in developing football in oceania)
In the end I don’t blame Bin Hammen for doing what he is doing. He’s only looking after the best interest of Asian Football like he is paid to do and removing Wellington Phoenix from A-league will be doing Asian football a favour and just like it’s in the best interest of Asian football to not have OFC to merge with AFC. After all AFC has no obligation to OFC it just has obligation to itself.
However if Oceania Football dies a slow death then I blame FIFA for not doing anything. After all it’s there job to ensure the good of the game is maintain and it’s there job to look after football as a whole and not just for a particular confederation. OFC need to merge with AFC for the good of the game even if it’s detrimental to AFC. There inaction on this matter is rather disapointing.
Millster said | November 25th 2008 @ 6:24pm | Report comment
I think we can risk being too sentimental here. I see the conflict of interest quite clearly (the one dasilva has spelled out), and Australia is not so many years into a period where it can show any benevolence. At a national level our play is improving but still somewhat inconsistent, and we are only on par with the other top nations in Asia, not above them. At a club level we have a young league in Australia which will undoubtedly experience some challenges and growing pains before its stability is assured.
Also in terms of our broader interests, they lie north not south-east. Australian football is far more likely to be advantaged by an AFC which is strong in its core leagues of Japan, South Korea and the Middle-East, and which focuses on bringing up to scratch the game in China and in one of the larger S-E Asian nations (Indonesia, Thailand or Vietnam) with that group of 6 or 7 countries including us forming a high-standard ‘core’ for the confederation. While I hold some affection for our Kiwi neighbours, strategically they are totally insignificant in this picture.
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Just reading back through the recent posts. Personally I would not want to push MBH’s buttons too much on this issue regardless of whether we are a part of his”master plan” to professionalise football in the region.
I lived through enough years of being in Oceania to know its somewhere I dont want to revisit & remember the knock backs by the AFC in particular the one vote for us to join in 1997?,the rest against.
I’m sure an astute international operator like Frank Lowy knows just how far we can make a point to the AFC via the FFA,seeing as he got us there in the first place.
Midfielder said | November 26th 2008 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Tow
You make valid points even if hard ……… Asia pays the Bills ……….. the old Scott saying ………” he who pays the piper calls the tune”…