By Brian
December 3rd 2008 @ 1:53am
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Northern Hemisphere rugby is on its knees
285-123. That’s the combined score of the matches that the three Southern Hemisphere nations – New Zealand, Australia and South Africa – competed in against their Northern Hemisphere rivals these past weeks.
Of the eleven Tests played in this northern Autumn, only Wales managed to win a match. And that was by three points against Australia.
Wales, coached by New Zealander Warren Gatland, looked to be the best of a bad bunch of Northern Hemisphere teams. They lost a close contest to South Africa, 15-20, competed with the All Blacks up until half time, before losing 9-29, and then defeated the wobbly Wallabies 21-18.
Wales played with direction and skill for periods in all their Tests, something England failed to do in any of their matches.
South Africa handed England their worst home defeat in memory, completely outplaying the English 42-6. Prior to this thumping, Australia ran over the top of an ill-disciplined England 28-14, before the All Blacks completed a Grand Slam against this ordinary outfit with a deserving 32-6 win.
England are a team that lack impact, attacking vision and skill.
In their three tests against Southern Hemisphere opposition, they scored just 26 points, and conceded 102. Danny Cipriani failed to ignite the English backline, and was dropped for Toby Flood in their last Test against New Zealand.
Flood showed the same ineptitude as Cipriani, leaving England fans calling once again for the injury-plagued Johnny Wilkinson.
In the forwards, England do have some very good front rowers, but their back five just aren’t up to it.
Ever since Neil Back retired, they have lacked a ball-stealing openside, and Nick Easter, their No. 8, is a premiership footballer, not an international.
Easter lacks the ball running ability and agility of his Southern Hemisphere rivals, Rodney So’oialo, Wycliff Palu and Pierre Spies.
Given the cattle Martin Johnson has to work with and the pressure on international coaches to produce results these days, his time as England manager could be a very short one.
Ireland showed a great deal of courage in their 3-22 loss to the All Blacks. However, playing depth is their biggest single concern. Ireland have some great potential in their backline, and with Australian Alan Gaffney now running the Ireland backs, there will be improvement in the Irish attacking structure and rhythm.
It is in the forwards that the Irish need some competition so that players can put pressure on the likes of Marcus Horan, John Hayes and Doncha O’Callaghan. At the moment the Irish forwards are just not up to it, and they need to produce some forward depth and talent in order to compete at the top level.
Scotland were hammered by the All Blacks 6-32, and then showed a little grit to scare South Africa before going down 10-14.
Scotland are a very weak international team who need to look at their approach to rugby. They rely on their goal kicking winger-fullback, Chris Paterson, to be their sole point scorer each week, and if they don’t look to re-model their play, they will become an international minnow.
The once brilliant French backline now looks unsettled and restricted with the loss of playmaker Frederic Michalak and coach Bernard Laporte. David Skrela showed against Australia that he is suspect under pressure, and their game plan lacked direction and typical French flair.
The French forwards will always be a force, and they showed that with a strong pushover try against the Wallabies. However, coach Marc Lievremont has a job on his hands to get the French back to playing their best rugby, and that is when their creative backline play what is in front of them and attack.
With the 6 Nations tournament kicking off in February, Wales have been clipped into 2/1 from 9/4 by Paddy Power to retain their Six Nations crown after Saturday’s thrilling victory over Australia. France are out to 3/1 which is the same price as England. Ireland are at 4/1 with Scotland at 20/1 and Italy at 66/1.
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Brendan said | December 3rd 2008 @ 6:18am | Report comment
Good article Brian
Notice how all the English experts have stopped conrtributing their expert analysis in response to articles posted on this site. I’m talking about Benjamin in particular his comments always seemed, to me, to excude the don’t argue with me you southern hemisphere neanderthal’s – the typical born to rule mentality that the english seem to have great difficulty getting out of their system despite losing their empire so long ago.
Cheers,
Brendan
Colin N said | December 3rd 2008 @ 7:17am | Report comment
I’m English and still commenting on this site. You seem very smug when saying that Brendan.
“the typical born to rule mentality that the english seem to have great difficulty getting out of their system despite losing their empire so long ago.”
I also see some people still have no knowledge of the English, and what is the point of refering to the past.
Sir Barrington said | December 3rd 2008 @ 7:23am | Report comment
I remember something Rudyard Kipling once said to me about empire
Oh wait, no, I forgot
Arky said | December 3rd 2008 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Brendan – the absence of Benjamin in particular is noticeable. The tally sheet stands in stark contrast to his brave predictions in response to Spiro’s article on the Southern invasion. Not sure about your comments on the empire – while it may or may not be true it is not important. What is interesting and valuable is the perspectives and insights that contributors share and how if received objectively can be used to improve one’s own insights and understanding. Benjamin had a lot to share he was just lacking in objectivity when it came to taking on board the insight and judgment of others – and he is not standing to admit defeat – in trading terms he was just ‘carried out by the market!’
Harry said | December 3rd 2008 @ 8:16am | Report comment
I enjoyed Benjamin’s views and from my perspective he’s sorely missed. He has a real passion for the game and provided an excellent insight into Eruopean club rugby.
Colin, your hemisphere – particuarly once formidbable at home England – was walloped in the AI’s. So, just like we antipodeans had to at the 07 RWC QF’s, you now have to wear a lot of disparagement and abuse, much of it banal, outdated, unoriginal and offensive; reflecting particularly poorly on the orginators character.
So cop it sweet you soap-dodging, country-decaying, whinging pommy loser.
On a serious point, I do worry that the wealth of the clubs in Europe is ruining the international game. This is already the main reason why the SH has to endure sub-standard NH teams fronting up down here year after year and being humiliated – France this year were frankly a disgrace to a national jersey.
Who Needs Melon said | December 3rd 2008 @ 8:16am | Report comment
I don’t think Brian intended this article to be a Pommy-basher.
I may not always agree with them but I for one welcome the comments from our Northern brethren, Colin N and Benjamin especially. This site would be much, much duller without them. If they continue to show optimism and confidence in their national team then good on them. I don’t think it is entirely unfounded and we here in Australia have no reason to be cocky.
I’m hoping Benjamin is in Ibiza or somewhere and will be back shortly.
Nick (KIA) said | December 3rd 2008 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Bring Back Benjamin! These boards are boring without his input.
Colin N said | December 3rd 2008 @ 9:13am | Report comment
To be fair, I thought England would beat South Africa and Australia. How wrong I was.
But with the perceived talent in the team, I thought we would. There was no doubting the talent of the back-line, yet it is ironic that they couldn’t get quick ball from the usually powerful England pack. The international stage is where players are found.Yet it is also a place to flourish and impress, especially with the SH watching like Armitage and to some extent Kennedy, did.
Care and Cipriani were disappointing but as I said earlier, they didn’t get quick enough ball. Having said that, they should have done better. I felt for the New Zealand game that Care was told to be calmer, not take the quick taps, but Why? That’s his game. You could see him when we were awarded a penalty itching at the chance to take a quick tap.
This is a team that can improve providing we can find a new front row and another lock to complement Kennedy (Bothwick isn’t good enough). Richard Blaze has been mentioned but there is very little talent in that area in England atm. In the front-row, Sheridan has struggled this season for both club and country and Alex Cobisero (Not sure on the spelling) has been mentioned, but again not much talent around.I still feel that Matt Stevens is the future at tight-head, but is being kept out of the team by an ageing Phil Vickery, who should now be replaced. That’s why I would disagree with the original post, as I feel Haskell and Rees are excellent players, but agree to some extent about Easter. However, he’s currently the only 8 that really gives us that balance. The only other 8 you could argue that will challenge and give the balance is Jordan Crane, who had an excellent game against Sale last week.
We have plenty of injuries with Simpson-Daniel (out for a further 2 months) and Matthew Tait struggling with a hamstring problem. Of course Wilkinson is also out and Abendanonm, who would have played full-back, is out.
Regarding the other NH teams, I still wouldn’t regard the AI’s a success for Wales despite their great win against Australia, simply because they should have beaten South Africa.
Scotland played well against South Africa but will never compete consistantly at the top level, because of their, or lack of resources.
Ireland have talent but don’t have the pack to use it against the big teams, ie the SH three. I’m not a big fan of O’Gara and can’t believe he’s currently regarded as the favourite for the Lions jersey. Against New Zealand, he played so laterally they could barely get over the gain line. When he’s on his game, he can be brilliant, but when he’s poor, Ireland are almost certain to lose.
France-well, the mystery of France. Have talent everywhere apart from 10, the linchpin of the back-line, and in some ways the go to man. Skrela is an awful player, Michalak is inconsistant and others such as Beauxis need game time, just to see if they’re up to the challenge of international rugby. I think that France, though, are fairly weak in the front-row, with Georgians and Romanians swarming the French league leaving a real dearth of talent in that area.
Westy said | December 3rd 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
…………..I think I begin to understand the English rugby dilemma and condition. It would appear to me that the game there is overwhelmingly social in character……….this must be the case otherwise the gene pool amongst the English middle class needs urgent athletic input………..you have so many registered and adult senior players relative to Australia where our game comes in at number 4.team sport ………….This I think is what irks many English rugby supporters deep down……on depth of playing numbers alone , English rugby being the No 2 team sport in a nation of over 60 million with 2 divisions of professional club teams and it struggles to beat Australian rugby our No 4 team sport with the lowest number of juniors nationally and about only 28100 senior adult players…and only 4 professional teams ………..No more need be said……….on any objective analysis English rugby should flog us every time they play ….. and they never have………..
I watched England play three games……………basically to remain competitive England resorted to downright cheating ….it was there for all to see………remember it was the English media who consistently labelled us as cheats in scrummaging. I read your press . Good luck rebuilding ………….English rugby…numbers …money but always lacking something
True Tah said | December 3rd 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Westy,
NZ has less senior rugby players than Australia, but I suspect that the NZ club comps in the various provinces would be far more competitive than in Australia..i.e. there is no real equivalent of subbies comps in NZ, I know in South Africa they do not have subbies-equivalent comps (well at least in Capetown they dont).
Plus in NZ, in particular the rural areas of the South Island, a lot of these guys are a bit tougher than the average Australian, to illustrate this most South Islanders I know through footy were big into their pig hunting, and over there they dont use rifles due to the nature of the country (i.e. thick undergrowth), not surprisingly these guys were incredibly strong and fit, and it wasnt like they lived in the gym either.
Martin Johnson made that observation when he compared the English with the NZers, as he played in King Country. From this I suspect that the vast majority of English rugby played is of a level equivalent to Subbies, and on the whole, far less competitive than say NZ, South Africa and probably Wales as well.
On a side note, I would like to see how the Sydney club comp would compare with the Auckland or Christchurch comps.
Chris Ash, syd Aust said | December 3rd 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
any know if the Wallabies vs BaBa’s game will be televised – can’t seem to find any info on it on foxsports.
cheers
Nick (KIA) said | December 3rd 2008 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Maybe Setanta?
Some users of this forum have been able to see games on p2p tv (peer to peer television) avaiable by the web. I couldn’t manage to find the England Abs game myself.
Fragglerocker said | December 3rd 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I really believe that the Northern Hemisphere is ‘a sleeping giant’. By that I mean he’s just gone to bed an hour ago, he’s just beginning REM, and will probably sleep-in till afternoon because it’s a Sunday and he had a late night.
If you look at player numbers, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and to a lesser extent Wales should be struggling every year but they are often able to field competent teams. Wales is boosted by the fact that rugby is a high profile game in most of the country. However they are all helped by their centralised contract system. France and England don’t have the same luxury.
Our Super 14 is nicely placed at the start of the season and is followed by a few northern hemisphere touring teams, the Tri-nations and then the November tours up north. Some French clubs play 40+ games in a year, while the 6-nations happens during their club season. Also the influx of foreign superstars is damaging their home grown players. Occasionally you’ll see French players selected for the national squad who aren’t always selected in the 1st XV at their home club. If you go off player numbers alone, England has more players registered with their under 12’s than Australia and NZ have players registered in all age groups. Add to that the enormous amount of money in the French and English club competitions and you’re left with a scenario which, on paper, should see France and England dominating world rugby (look at cricket in India over the last 5 years).
The reality however is that France and England don’t dominate, in fact at times they struggle to compete. This will never change until their club v country issue is solved. If those problems are solved then we in the south will be the ones struggling to keep up. The real tragedy is a great servant of the game like Martin Johnson is probably going to be the next sacrificial lamb blamed for England’s problems when no coach in the world can work miracles. You can’t carve a marble masterpiece out of a lump of concrete.
Fragglerocker said | December 3rd 2008 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
And one other thing on the subject of POMMIE-BASHING.
I’ve been guilty of the odd anti-northern comment in my day, but I have to admit that through the year of 2001 with the many Lions tour matches watched at stadiums and pubs with visiting supporters, followed by a visit to the home-nations for a Wallabies tour the same year, I’ve never had a better year. I benefitted from an enormous amount of hospitality shown to me in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and yes – even England. Some Lancastrian supporters even organised a free England v Australia ticket for me, as well as before and after tailgate parties in the Twickenham Western Carpark, followed by pub crawl and a traditional post-lager curry at an Indian restaurant. All at a time when the Australian dollar was worth 36p. I wish my countrymen could show half the amount of hospitality to visiters here as I was shown up north.
So to all readers up north, our occasional criticisms of Northern rugby (ok more than ‘occasional’) should be taken as hopefully constructive criticism, not a personal attack. I love to see Australia win, but I’m not annoyed when we lose to clearly world-class opposition, as opposed to losing because our own team is playing slightly more woefully than the other team.
hayden said | December 3rd 2008 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Colin – agree regarding Vickery. He should be on the bench, brought on late in the game, or else if things are turning to poo. It is far better to give Stevens more game time. What happened to the loosies? They wer pretty good in NZ, but mia this Autumn. I disagree with your assessment on the backs. Care seemed to have real potential in NZ in June, but was hopeless in the AI’s. To date, Cipriani has shown nothing to suggest the hype has substance. Who knows how he’ll develop? It’s a big step up from Wasps vs Bath to international rugby, esp when your forwards are going backwards. I guess the jury will be out until this is solved. Flutey left NZ because he couldn’t break into the top tier, and didn’t do anything to suggest his game has improved. It seems 13 is a real problem also. Armitage is a real find – cool and composed, he could be in for a long and stellar career. Hard to tell about Sackey and Monye – no front foot ball, and pretty disorganized play inside them.
brad said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
I did mention in an earlie post that the NH players seem somewhat underdone ie Ryan Jones vs Schalk burger. One of the most significant things about the 2003 england side was that they were extremely well conditioned Dalaglio vs Easter quite frankly easter is a bit on the chubby side. Perhaps the NH needs a few indoor training venues so that they can train properly or even have their fileds intergrated with synthetic fibre like they do at newlands. Despite the relentless winter rains in the cape WP and the stormers are a running rugby side. Another reason for poor conditioning as mentioned above is the poor state of non proffesional and semi proffesional rugby and also a weakness in the country’s youth acadamies. Every english premiership side should hav an under 19 and under 21 side competing in a weekly comp and having full time coaching between varsity and work. THe sharks academy over the past few years have produced most of their super 14 stars in the current squad and thus have not had to make to many purchases like the european clubs.
True Tah said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Brad
there are a few too many doughboys running around in NH rugby, Wales being the general exception (aside from Ryan Jones). Look at Matt Stevens, what has happened to him?
I dont think Johnson likes having a bunch of unfit blokes wearing the Red Rose, Im sure he will be limiting their Christmas Turkey portions over the summer…Dallaglio was a bit of an exception though, the guys shoulders were huge, Im surprised he didnt have problems walking through doorways.
Chris Ash, syd Aust said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
*cough* michalek was abit of waste of money no? *cough*
the stormers bought tony brown… bit of a has been, that other fijian flyer Naqelevuki. That being said I think SA have the strongest player depth of any country in the world.
Compare that to aussie and nz s14 teams where no outside purchases have been made apart from the recent signing of braid to the reds… granted the laws permitting this have only just come into play.
True Tah said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Chris
the Reds also signed Ezra Taylor from the Highlanders.
Chris Ash, syd Aust said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
ezra is abit of strange name isn’t it :p
Sam Taulelei said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Chris and anyone else that’s interested the game against the Baa Bass will be broadcast live on channel 10. Coverage begins at 6am. Foxtel have no rights to the game and won’t be screening it delayed or otherwise. Setanta may be screening it.
I was wondering where Benjamin has been myself. I enjoyed reading his views and provocative comments, he’s clearly as passionate about the game as we are and we need more people like him on this site.
I’m picking the Wallabies to lose this match, but then again I picked them to beat Wales last week so what do I know?
Chris Ash, syd Aust said | December 3rd 2008 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
thanks for the info Sam – appreciated, an early rise is on the cards 2mrw then. Can’t wait to see this game.
wallabies at half strength to beat a World XV… not likely in my opinion
B Johnson said | December 3rd 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
I must say I was intrigued by some punters who expected England to beat Australia and the Springboks. What was that based on? World Cup form? Six Nations form? Martin Johnson? Cipriani? No, England does have some exiting prospects, especially the back three, fast , strong and willing, but the soft underbelly are the 2 locks and the backrow. Get that right and England will be back on its way.
B Johnson said | December 3rd 2008 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
Missing Benjamin is like missing that idiot teacher from school 20 years ago and then remembering what a twerp he realy was. That being said, i would love to read his explanation of what was an autumn of discontent for the NH teams. It is just not the same without him.
He would probably start with something like this: “BJohnson SIGH what a juvenile comment”
Anyone else has a favourite Benji comment?
van der Merwe said | December 3rd 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
“I did mention in an earlie post that the NH players seem somewhat underdone ie Ryan Jones vs Schalk burger.”
Not really fair since 1. Schalk is actually an openside and 2. Everyone seems underdone when compared to him.
“Anyone else has a favourite Benji comment?”
I liked the one where he takes a dump upon the legend of Os du Randt.
Worlds Biggest said | December 3rd 2008 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
Let’s hope the Welsh and Poms send out quality teams when touring here like Ireland do. France will continue to send 2nd rate teams if it clashes with Top 14 Finals and Scotland are a basket case and a non entity in World Rugby now which is a pity. England and Wales have good young talent. If they want to be serious about RWC 2011 they have to send there strongest teams down under to learn about what it takes to compete. Wales are notoriously bad when touring, maybe the LIons tour ( of which a lot of there players will be involved ) will give them the experience necessary. England have sent out rubbish teams here the last two tours. How does that benefit anyone ??. The Southern Hemisphere Powers have completley dominated the Autumn series. We need our NH bretheren to return the favour and send out there top lineups here. The more teams seriously challenging for the Webb Ellis Trophy the better the game will be.
Dublin Dave said | December 3rd 2008 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
I will pledge loyalty to many things: to family, neighbourhood, province and country. But I draw the bloody line at being pigeonholed with an entire shagging hemisphere. That’s a few lines of latitude too far.
Having said which, if you want to lump all teams in the “Southern Hemisphere” together for the Autumn Internationals (as we call them up here) then the real figure is three NH wins out of fourteen. Argentina, third placed in the last world cup and fourth in the IRB rankings lost to both France and Ireland, the latter by a new record margin.
In fact, that game came close to changing the pecking order in a way that would have made a mockery of the IRB’s rankings system. As I understand it, the margin of 15 points is a watershed in the IRB’s calculations. If you lose by 15 points or more your ranking figure takes a serious hit.
Argentina lost to Ireland by 17 -3. The last score was a try in the corner and had the conversion gone over, Argentina would have lost by a margin of 16 points. That would have been enough to push them down the rankings from fourth to fifth where their place would have been taken by England. What makes this ridiculous is that while Argentina were losing in Dublin to a new record margin to Ireland, England were suffering a similar but worse fate at home to South Africa, losing eventually by a whopping 42-6.
However, a successful conversion of Irelad’s late try would have seen England climb a place in the rankings to fourth, despite their abject performance that day. What makes it even more ironic is that the difference between fourth and fifth at that moment in time was the difference between a first and second tier seeding in the next World Cup.
However, just to prove that two ironies can cancel each other out, the fates conspired to put both Argentina and England in the same world cup pool anyway. So, Much Ado About Nothing, as that great Northern Hemisphere writer Shakespeare might have put it.
Guy Smiley said | December 3rd 2008 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
Fitness, hunger, playing depth, pride, strength, teamwork, skill – as a team unit the SH teams are better than the NH teams in all these facets. OK Australia don’t have playing depth but they do have a freakish ability to make do with limited resources. NH club teams have extremely congested schedules in difficult conditions requiring them to often win ugly – SH club teams by contrast are not involved in multiple competitions at the same time and they also have no threat of relegation hanging over their heads. While relegation may produce more exciting nail-biting moments than S14/Currie/NPC rugby it is not conducive to a multi-dimensional game plan capable of beating the best in the world.
South Africa have taken on all comers even with an oddball coach who has no idea what he is doing – its in their nature.
NH rugby needs to take a good look at its future direction. To be so consistently beaten especially in the second halves of games shows an ingrained, inherent problem in the system. Wales are heading in the right direction but look who’s coaching them! It was not that long ago that Gatland was coaching the Ireland team until he was turfed out on his arse by internal IRFU politicking – what a loss that has proven to be.
There’s no shame in getting beaten by superior teams but year in year out the lessons just haven’t been learned. As an NH ‘native’ I’m sick to death of the optimism borne from hope not reality – NH teams must think differently or 2011 will be a waste of time for them.
As for Benjamin – he returned to his home planet some time back, exasperated at other people persistently having different opinions to his own.
Rowdy said | December 4th 2008 @ 1:28am | Report comment
I doubt very much that Benjamin is sulking in his tent. He’s probably just contemplating slitting his (or better, Rob Andrew’s) wrists. I suspect, anyway, that he loves the game too much to stay away, even if it means crossing cudgels with some crims who seem to think they’re a shoo-in to get to the 2011 final (just friendly banter, boys, friendly banter).
On player numbers – maybe having large numbers available makes things harder, as there is always someone just below top level who can step in, fail, and be replaced after 3 games ? A reason, maybe, but certainly no excuse for England’s underwhelming record over the past 5 years.
I disagree with one area that the writer covers – I think England are weakest in the front 5 – back row is not too bad, once Haskell, Rees, Easter, Narraway, Crane and Moody are all available. They need to get shot of Borthwick, who’s never looked the goods, stick with Kennedy, start Hartley, and kick Sheridan’s and Stevens’ arses around Twix a hundred times a day, followed by some intensive coaching in how to actually do their f**king jobs.
9 to 15 is reasonably OK and will be better once Noon is sent back to clubland and replaced by Tait at 13; but there’s no point fiddling about with them while they’re not getting the ball. The current crop, as MJ says, is about the best we’ve got, so we need to stick with them.
Ian Noble said | December 4th 2008 @ 1:53am | Report comment
Westy
You are right, in the main English rugby is a social event and I can remember when I played you wouldn’t dare buy an orange juice or mineral water after the game, because it just wasn’t done, you ordered a jug of beer. Training what is that, on a cold wet Tuesday or Thursday evening prefer to be in the clubhouse having a few beers. This mindset does take a lot of readjusting and it is only with the new breed of professional players who have only known the professional way that the elite game is changing. Cipriani for all his socialising is teetotal, and the majority of the new breed is the same. They have very strict discipline regimes at their clubs and if they transgress then they are out.
As these players are being increasing better rewarded for their efforts, there is a greater commitment to the professional way,. They must retain a greater level of fitness not just through training with their clubs but right across their entire lifestyle. Many of the new breed have started taking extra personal coaching on sprinting as they have to show not just to their clubs a 100% commitment, but that extra element which places them above the rest. It is becoming increasing competitive. For example, there are a number of academy players at Quins who are sweating on professional contracts for next season, all good players with plenty of potential but who has the extra element to be a successful professional player. I am glad I don’t have to make that decision.
Will it translate through to the International arena, who knows, but if the competition is strong at the lower level then there is a better chance of success.
I know Spiro loves to have a pop at the RFU, but the RFU in many ways is similar to the FA, set up in the amateur era struggled to get to grips with the elite professional game. The Premier clubs in football moved away to form the Premier League so in rugby exactly the same has happened with the professional clubs forming the Guinness Premier League. It is only this year that the Professional Game board has been established with the RFU, The GP and the Professional Players union having equal stakes in the formation of the board. Their remit is to monitor the overall performance of the professional game in England, the number of foreign players, the relationship between club and country, incentives for clubs to introduce more English players to the first XV’s etc. Very early days, with Johnson incidentally being nominated by the GP clubs not the RFU to sit on the board.
I must admit preferring at this stage that England are written off as no hopers, because given time we may surprise you. Whether it will be by RWC2011 I don’t know but once an Englishmen gets a bee in his bonnet he generally works it out and is successful.
ohtani's jacket said | December 4th 2008 @ 7:31am | Report comment
Benjamin is alive and well on other rugby boards.
Chris Ash, syd Aust said | December 4th 2008 @ 7:42am | Report comment
18 – 11 C’mon!
apart from that fudged kick from o’connor he played very well. lachie turner speedsta! Lote playin smart footy. Few big hits, great physicality from the green and gold.
ps love the new baba’s jersey, wonder how many pounds those will go for?
Colin N said | December 4th 2008 @ 7:52am | Report comment
OJ, which boards are those, just out of interest.
ohtani's jacket said | December 4th 2008 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Will Carling’s board, I believe.
pothale said | December 5th 2008 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Don’t ya just love the way you can get figures to support the point you want to make? Let me try mine.
For example, if the debate is going to be about SH vs NH in comparing quality and performance, how about making the comparison fairer? Why not compare 6 nations from SH with 6 nations in NH? Why not include Argentina (4th), Fiji (10th) Samoa (12th)? After all, those are the top 12 teams in the IRB rankings. NH results against SH teams (including Pacific Islanders) makes it 5 wins out of 17 matches. So of the 6 nations that played, only Scotland and Italy failed to win a match against SH opposition. That’s a more accurate picture of what happened. Still poor by NH teams, but more accurate.
Against SH teams, Wales, Ireland and France won one match apiece. England won one as well if you count the PIs.
Another point. Why is everyone focusing on Wales as the best of the NH teams? In my view, the Irish seemed to do as well, if not better, in terms of meeting targets, and winning scorelines.
England got hammered in every game, (bar the PIs) and were arguably the worst performers of the 6 nations, given the scorelines. They failed to get 4th spot in WC, but regard themselves lucky in getting Argentina/Scotland. Hmmm.
Italy lost to PIs but ran the Aussies close. They fell into third tier of WC, and got Australia and Ireland for their efforts.
Scotland ran the Boks close as evidenced by the scoreline. But lost both their matches against SH teams. They missed their target of getting 8th spot, and got England/Argentina in their group.
Wales lost to ABs. They lost to SA – by a smaller margin, and they beat Oz – not by much. It was a good result against a team playing their 4th test in as many weeks. Not outstanding though. Gatland wanted to get Wales into 4th spot for WC draw – he failed to meet that target, and got landed with SA as a result.
France lost the game to OZ – and narrowly beat Argentina without crossing try-line. They failed to gain 4th spot and ended up with NZ as a result. Lievremont won’t be happy.
Lastly, Ireland whupped Canada, were beaten by AB’s and then beat Argentina – handsomely.
They had 3 matches based on what teams were willing to play them. Don’t know why that is – they get the crowd numbers, and they have the passion as instanced by Munster – the best match of all over the last few weeks. The Canada match was more for the benefit of the Canucks than serving any useful purpose in preparing the Irish for the furnace of the All Blacks play, and the result was a given. However, Ireland’s stated target by coach Kidney was to maintain their second tier ranking. And since Canada wouldn’t have any IRB points, he had 2 matches to achieve that. Beating the ABs was going to be a tall order, but given their results down South in last couple of games, they had well-founded aspirations. They failed to prepare. They did well in first half (like Wales & England subsequently) and then were over-run in the second half. However, of the four home nations, they conceded the least amount of points to ABs.
Then they played Argentina – the 4th ranked team in the world. Their bogey team, who had put them out of World Cup twice. A game with a lot of niggle and bad history. A far more compelling match to watch than the AB game the previous week. O’Gara came out of his shell and steered the game perfectly including his perfectly judged kick into the arms of the winger at game end. They won by 14 points – the best winning margin of any of the 6 Nations teams against SH opposition – well IRB-ranked teams anyway.
They met their target of keeping second-tier place, and got a WC draw group from which they are highly likely to qualify for quarter-finals. I reckon they’ll give OZ a run for their money – they only lost by a point in their last two WC matches.
According to bookies, Wales are now rated 2/1 for Grand Slam, and Ireland are rated behind England and France.
Don’t get that.
Nick (KIA) said | December 5th 2008 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
pothale (is it pronounced Pot-Hale or Po-Thale?)
5/17 doesn’t sound too crash hot to me. I don’t think I’d be throwing that figure about to try and feel better about state of play in the north.
I agree with some of your points about the Irish, especially with regard to the spirit/crowds/compellingness of matches, at least from the appearance on the TV. Sounds like they’ll be happy (?) that they made their targets.
I doubt any of that stuff comes into the bookies calculations though – they’ll be looking at recent performances, history in 6N and available player form. I wasn’t convinced at all by Ireland’s performance vs the ABs – Wales certainly made a better fist of their chance, despite score lines. And Wales beat Australia, who have been the only team to run the ABs best line up close this year consistently. Also Wales are defending champs, have IRB player of the year, and great coach. They’ve got to be odds on to win 6N.
I’d rate Ireland better than England and probably France currently (although a lot depends on which french side decides to turn up on the day). Incidentally, Scotland looked better than England and France currently too, at least in the game against the ABs second stringers.
As for all the stuff about the WC pools, well I think it’s all pretty irrelevant. It’s not being played next week, so it’s a bit hard for anyone to know whether any particular opposition is going to be worth their salt in 3 years (although history would suggest that England, Australia and the Boks will be in good form by then).
Nick (KIA) said | December 5th 2008 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Yeah, so my ill informed SH biased prediction for the 6N:
1 Wales
2 Ireland
3 France
4 Scotland
5 Italy
6 England
pothale said | December 6th 2008 @ 3:30am | Report comment
Nick
You’re right 5/17 matches is not a good result. But it’s a more accurate summary of the Autumn Internationals than the article that headlines this discussion makes out. find it somewhat infuriating that discussion on SH teams seems to revolve always around SANZAR performances, but when it’s NH teams, the pool is wider. Anyway, point made – I won’t belabour it.
I don’t think there will be a Grand Slam this year in 6 Nations. Since Home and Away alternates against teams each year, home fixtures benefit some teams. For example, France have got a great home record and are rarely beaten, so playing them away is going to help another team in search of a Grand Slam. Ireland, England and Italy play them on their home patches. Croke Park and Twickenham will be hostile venues and I figure they’ll lose one of them. Wales winning in France will be tricky, but they’ve got Ireland and England at home. Ireland have England and France at home, which they could win, but they’ll find Wales at the Millenium very difficult. So the top teams could lose out against each other, and the Championship gets decided on scorelines as has happened in previous years.
Difficult to call who’ll score the most tries….
Ian Noble said | December 6th 2008 @ 3:59am | Report comment
Nick (KIA)
It looks as though you have England down to win the “Wooden Spoon”. In the late 70’s and early 80’s England were so bad that a group of English supporters got together to form the Wooden Spoon Society. Essentially it started off as a way of getting over your England blues, but over the years it has grown to become probably the largest rugby based charity in the UK and raises large sums for various good causes. Indeed the main benficiary of the Baa- baas v Wallabies match on Wednesday was the Wooden Spoon Society.
How will England perform who knows, Italy will be no pushover and the 6Ns look as though it will be as unpredictable as ever. Looking forward to it, the BBC coverage is superb and I suspect the TV ratings and attendances will hit new heights.
pothale said | December 7th 2008 @ 5:17am | Report comment
Just finished watching today’s Heineken Cup matches. Some surpising results, some great matches. Most keenly contested was Leicester vs Perpignan. Perpignan took a hammering and have the return leg next week. Sitting in the stands watching his new team getting hammered was one Dan Carter. Must have been feeling a little queasy about his decision after this result. He said wanting to play in the Heineken Cup was one of the key reasons for moving, Well he’ll get to play in the remainder of the Pool matches, but nothing more, they’re too far behind. Let’s hope he can move Perignan up from 3rd spot in the Top 14 to win the championship.
Colin N said | December 7th 2008 @ 7:18am | Report comment
Lots of excellent Heineken cup games this weekend and still Clermont-Munster to come. Leicester were very good today and the winger Matt Smith looks a real talent. There was also a huge shock with Quins, led with an awesome halfback partnership of Danny Care and Nick Evans, beating Stade Francais 15-10 in the Stade de France, in front of 77,000 fans.
Quins took their chances and their defence was superb, after being camped in their own 22 for 10 minutes at the end.
The problem with Carter going to France is that some of them don’t take it seriously for some reason, and at the moment it looks like very few of them are going to make it out of the pool stages. Toulouse should do it but Clermont must win tomorrow to stand a chance and Stade losing to Quins today is a huge blow for them.
Ian Noble said | December 7th 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
Delighted with the Quins win with a young squad of mainly English players. Can’t wait for the return at the Stoop on Saturday, Stade Francais will be hurt by the result and it will be a fierce exciting contest.
It looks as though DC has made the wrong choice with Perpignan as they are almost out of the HC, but the return in Perpigan on Saturday will particularly interesting to see Flood v Carter at the fly half. Carter could struggle as Perpignans pack was completely dominated by Leicester, with Julian White destroying their fromt row.
Westy said | December 7th 2008 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Ian Noble……………I would never rite off the old dart. There is no sin in rebuilding……as are the Wallabies……I think it was the overestimation by much of the English press as to where they actually were …..(artificially raised by the quality of the professional clubs.)…………..and the teams tendency to spoil…even against the weaker Wallabies but at times against SA and the Blacks what they call here cheap shots …………..that reflected poorly on themselves……England will rise again……….but it must play as a cohesive unit in the style their coach chooses………..not a spoiling infringing game that was never his choice.
pothale said | December 8th 2008 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Westy….is it just a style thing…..that you….put so ….many…..epsilons…..in between your sentences?….I keep thinking I’m meant to….be……reading…. a…..news…..flash….but…all…… it….ends up…..being…is….very…..bloody……irritating.
Ian Noble said | December 8th 2008 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Westy
We are in for an exciting couple of years as virtually all the main nations try and sort out their squads in the build up to RWC2011. From an English point of view the first batch of the academy players are breaking into the GP, Care, Cipriani, Rees, Croft, Naraway, Crane,etc. How many if any will step up to International Level will be fascinating to watch? So many unknowns.
On the press there is no harm in overbulling the players as rugby struggles to generate publicity for the game in the England and the UK generally. Of course, football rules the roost but rugby offers another dimension for kids to consider and the spread of the game and its popularity is generated by publicity and brand awareness. The professional game has to sell its product and even if some of the players don’t cut the mustard the continual debate creates the interest.
Westy said | December 8th 2008 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
pothale……it …especially …becomes …difficult….when….asking ….your …..wife …..for……… sex…….I have been doing some lecturing recently and developed this bad habit……waiting for the students to respond anything wakeup laugh anything.Wil take your comments on board.
pothale said | December 9th 2008 @ 6:19am | Report comment
Westy –
I now have a picture of you standing at front of classroom like that teacher bloke in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off –
“OK boys and girls, the French fought the ….anyone, anyone…English in the Battle of?……anyone, anyone…Hastings in ten sixty…..anyone anyone, six and the ……anyone, anyone…?” Reminded me so much of schooldays. Very funny scene.
Was only slagging you…. honestly…didn’t want…you to take it …..too seriously.
bob said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:57am | Report comment
Of course English rugby is social… do you think there are 750,000 elite players? Anyone who knows anything about English rugby knows that every fan is linked to a low level, social, muddy, drunken club, then a higher one down the road, then a better one in the premiership… it’s all club, club. club, and we play for them, our kids play for tehm, we coach, we support, we input. Then there’s England, the pick of teh clubs play for them, but not always… how comes Dellon Armitage is 25 and just now gets “discovered” when he’s been in the premiership for years? The list doesn’t end there… why didin’t Duncan Bell, arguablly the best tight head in England for years get an England shirt? And how comes the woprk-a-day Englkand fans virtually never get a ticket to a full test? We can go see England play the barbarians, and often then the crowd support the baabaa’s… but we don’t usually get too excited by international tests, excpet for patriotic fun… they just aren’t representative… it was different in 2003, that squad felt like it belonged to everyone, that the players were like your club players, the coach working on a bigger picture, not just winning his blazer… but most of the time, the real thing here is in the clubs… thats why SH players coming north have so much fun, on all levels… because it is about enjoyment, belonging, and the challenge of the battle… not just about winning… and not about demonstrating something to do with bizzare notions of hemispheres…