By Michael DiFabrizio
December 9th 2008 @ 1:51am
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Expansion alone won’t save A-League crowds
As the season rolls on, this year’s A-League is looking more and more like Baz Luhrmann’s “epic” Australia: a lot of hype and promotion, a lot of hope pinned on expensive local talent (hello John Aloisi) and more than anything, a poor reception at the box office.
Despite the fact highlight reels have been flooded with superb goals over the past few weeks, fans have been staying away in their droves. The weekend’s second-straight round without a crowd of over 10,000 officially marked the end of the honeymoon period.
No longer can the A-League pitch itself as the bright, young new kid on the block.
The drastic decline in support has revealed that the problem runs deeper than first expected. Those within the football family that expected expansion would turn things around must surely have to think again.
It was assumed that watching the same eight teams running around for going on four years had grown tired and that the influx of two new teams would provide a much-needed injection of variety to the competition.
But seriously, if variety was everything, we wouldn’t have seven clubs still sporting white playing strips every time they’re on the road.
And when fans are not pointing to expansion as the saviour, they are pointing to the global financial crisis as the reason for the decline.
This is despite the fact that, according to Roy Morgan research, consumer confidence began to plummet back in January and has levelled off since then.
Admittedly, things aren’t what they were a year ago.
But if a cutback in spending was truly a driving force behind football’s crowd woes, there would’ve been similar evidence of struggle in the winter codes.
Clearly, there wasn’t.
AFL crowd figures actually increased. The NRL escaped a tumultuous year off the field to see only a small drop in support.
Alas, it is fair to say there is more to it than just monotony and the economy.
Put simply, the A-League has had its day in the sun. Things haven’t been the same in Melbourne since the Victory tore season two to shreds. Things haven’t been the same in Sydney since “All Night Dwight” was bringing in the fans.
The momentum fuelling those glory days is the same sort of stuff that made the Reds take over Adelaide during the AFC Champions League.
Expansion will not address the issue of how to ensure A-League clubs are not just one-hit wonders. If anything, it will create two more one-hit wonders, exacerbating the problem down the track.
Of course, expansion also presents concern in the fact that a 10-team competition will require a 27-round season.
This works against the principle of bringing fans through the gates on two fronts.
Firstly because it is asking fans to rock up for an additional three home games. Membership numbers, which have only just found themselves solid foundation after a dreadful first season, will take a hit solely on this basis.
Secondly, we are likely to see mid-week games introduced to accommodate the extra rounds. Wednesday night games are hardly a big drawcard and have yet to prove themselves in this country outside of major events (such as State of Origin and the business end of the ACL).
Kudos must be given to the FFA for not underestimating the issue. They are currently conducting market research on the state of the competition.
Hopefully the research will help re-kindle that old spark the A-League once had.
After all, it’d be scary to think that a couple of extra teams only differentiated by the colour of their sleeves should have to shoulder all the burden.
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(205)
onside said | December 9th 2008 @ 5:43am | Report comment
”expansion alone wont save the A league”
The title presupposes the A League is doomed.Something needs to be done to save it,and expansion alone wont do it.
If that is your opinion,then I would like your ideas on , WHAT WILL SAVE IT, not what wont save it
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 6:27am | Report comment
Michael DiFabrizio
Basketball and AFL folk … all these shit articles by people than know little and have so little insight …. dream on even the NSL as tragic and miss managed as it was, lasted 50 years … mate you are so far off the mark the Caroline Wilson of the Roar.
David said | September 18th 2009 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
I agree the NSL was poor managed and had little to no coverage and it surivied 50 years and many of the clubs of the state premier league still stand today. There is Four problems with the A-league:
1. There is no relegation – Relegation brings a special aspect to football that no other sport has
2. Its still young A-league its only in its fifth season i doubt even AFL would have got any better support when it frist began. The quality has still got a way to go, although it has improved alot. Alot of players from the state premier league that are young are more then capable of filling A-league boots a greater emphises need to be put on local talant it cheaper and better local support then just buying interationals that are not good enough to make it in there own country.
3. There is only 10 teams – i think expansion is a good idea there should be at least 12-16 teams and a second division like the SPL. The A-leagues on the rise i believe Basket ball is lossing crowd numbers, cricket wont last over the next generation its not popular like it used to be. AFL and NRL will always be big but statistics show Football (soccer) is the most played sport amoungst young people which can only be good because in my opinion its the easiest and most fun sport to play.
As you can see im a big fan on local talent its good to have internationals with experience from europe and South America however to improve the game we need our local boy playing the world game. For everyone player that players for a team there whole family will support it that a fact. Also local talent is cheaper easier to acquire and we can also sell players that are older to rich Arab clubs like Victory did with Allsop, and sell out younger ones to qulity teams in the EPL Holland etc..
Personally i think you got it wrong i think the A-league is heading in the right direction but no one said it was going to be easy if the Socceroos preform well in the world cup the game will expand even more.
I believe our national team is the driving force of our domestic league we need to keep sending and producing quality players to play in europes big leagues to create a strong generation of socceroos once our current guys hang up the boots.
We need to Find a new Kewell, Cahill, Neil etc if the game is to keep growing local talent is the way to go theres heaps of good playes out there they jus need to be given a chance Dijt, Bojic, Jedi are some some of the names we have already uncovered who will we find next i hope the next Messi or Ronaldo who knows thats mght be Aroon Mooey.
Dave said | September 18th 2009 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Relegation has ruined the Scottish premier league and is a major problem with the EPL. Super league has improve since they got rid of it.
Soccer is not the most popular sport amongst young people.
Cricket will last over the next generation and keeps growing in popularity.
You want the new Kewell, Cahill, Neil……….look for kids with European passports like them and the will be able to play EPL
David said | September 18th 2009 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
u GOT NO IDEA m8 soccer is the highest participated sport amoungst kids from the ages of 8-16 LMAO i noe i study this hahahaha second is swimming LMAO get ur facts right.
Dave said | September 19th 2009 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
well…..um……yes ……… good luck with those studies
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
and then there is massive drop off in the ages 18-24
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/2D0179A15287F5BFCA2574E400117321?OpenDocument
Participants, – By age
Age group (years)
15-17 18-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65 and over Total
——————————————————————————–
Participation rate (%)
——————————————————————————–
Soccer (outdoor) 15.6 6.3 3.3 2.1 *0.2 *0.5 – 2.6
——————————————————————————–
* estimate has a relative standard error of 25% to 50% and should be used with caution
Dave said | December 9th 2008 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Is this MC under a (slightly) different name?
This topic has been done to death. 10 of the AFL clubs had reduced attendances in 2008 and the increase was due to a couple of Melb teams doing very well. SS lost members, TV ratings, crowds etc and had the worst ever attendance for a final of 18,000 at an 83,000 capacity ground!! Where were your comments then Michael.
Port Adelaide yesterday announced a record loss for the season. Even a 3 1/2 year old HAL club MV gets more spectators than they do. HAL club membership numbers were up this year as a re TV ratings, media time/column inches, sponsorships etc.
AFL will be hit by further crowd drops in 2009. Look forward to your death of the AFL article next year when that occurs.
HAL attendances had grwn for 3 consecutive years to match RL which is 100 plus years old. They were due for a step back after so many steps forward.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Dave -
ah…….so, ’tis now the ‘Michael C principle’……………
I’m flattered.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:35am | Report comment
I join Middie and Dave in thinking that this is a overly-stated and not-so-helpful article. Not quite Rebecca Wilson but heading in that direction.
However even us football guys, who are optimistic about the future and understand the combination of grassroots and global push-pull which puts our game in a unique position, can read the tea leaves and know that it is now time for a good look at the league and its early development.
This is a natural process and part of the ‘growing up’ of the league. As with so many things in life, after a burst of initial energy the system is not ‘taking a breath’ and this gives all stakeholders the chance to evaluate, tweak, and ensure the strength and viability and further growth of the league.
So I think we shoud take the current state of play as an opportunity. We have something immeasurably better than the NSL. And we have a good foundation for moving forward. Is it perfect? No. Can we be complacent? No. So lets use this next season or two and the coming expansion phase to take the code to the next level…. at all levels.
After all, an A-League which is BOT expanded and further sharpened in 2009, followed by World Cup 2010 and then Asian Cup 2011, and hopefully with some more ACL action sprinkled in, is about as good a platform for the next phase of development of the game in Australia that I can imagine.
Towser said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:45am | Report comment
All toilet trained 4 year old toddlers are now destined to go back to sh*tting their pants & will regress to wearing nappies.
Forgetmenot said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Another bit of doom and gloom.
This summers cricket against South Africa is looking potentially very interesting.
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment
I posted to this earlier today but is still to get thro the mods when it does I will pot agian
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:01am | Report comment
I didn’t mind this article, and I think Millster’s response is a reasonable one (Michael di Fabrizio lists his loves as AFL and football).
One thing that did stand out though, is that Michael is far more forgiving of the current state of basketball in Australia, which I would have thought is a prime candidate for having had “your day in the sun”.
That’s the oddest thing for me.
Otherwise, all fans of the A-League must now accept that the crowds started poorly, and are now getting worse when we all thought they would have started picking up by now.
We have to accept that despite all the hype surrounding AU’s ACL campaign, and forthcoming club championship, their crowds have stagnated (at best).
And we have to accept that SFC is an absolute basket case.
The one shining light, Melbourne, is maintaining crowds at a decent level (marginal drop), but has the spectre of a 2nd team coming in.
And there are big questions marks around the financial viability of both Perth and Newcastle, the latter being the reigning champoin, yet this fact has done zero for its crowds – there are very big warning signs everywhere.
Will the game get another kick along post the 2010 WC? maybe, maybe not – I don’t think it’s all that clear cut.
sheek said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Historically,
Any new comp suffers a ‘fall back’ after the initial tide of enthusiasm & goodwill. We’ve all heard of the “honeymoon period’, be it marriage, or politics, or whatever.
A survey several weeks ago of all the AFL, NRL, A-League & S14 clubs TV audiences placed the football & rugby union in the last 12, with union occupying 4 of the bottom 8. That meant 4 A-League clubs were still generating more TV interest.
If the A-League is in deep trouble, could we please swap your 8 national teams & dwindling crowds, with our 4 S14 teams & ordinary crowds???!
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
A little bit harsh there, guys. If you did actually read the title, it is about saving “A-League crowds”, not the A-League itself.
If you actually read the article, you might find that there are some arguments suggesting certain factors have been overstated — feel free to debate these points. I happen to think they are important.
For the record I am a football fan, this just so happens to be my first football article on The Roar. Heck, I even went out of my way to praise the FFA for what they are doing to correct the problem.
All I was trying to suggest was that those people thinking expansion would be the magic trigger for a turn around in attendance had to realize that there is more to it than just two extra teams.
Let’s stick to debating these points and stop jumping to conclusions.
David said | September 18th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
yea fair enough sorry i was a bit harsh i see your point its just every journalist these days seems to aim to put football down and most of them have no idea about it. Im just sick of the medias fear of the ’soccer code’ in Australia the socceroos got a crowed of 74000 in a dead rubber match against japan and still they aim to bring it down. Football can potentially bring in more money then other code in Australia they sold Adem Griffen of over a million and Allsop for just under and they are old and not so great players imagin just from a economic stand ponit the benefit football would have if more of the media gave it a chance just gets on my nerves
Towser said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Pippinu wrote
“And we have to accept that SFC is an absolute basket case.”
Now a Russian owned basket case it would seem.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24772403-5000940,00.html
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Pip -
questions marks also about Wellington Phoenix,
the issue I guess is that once upon a time people were queing up to own an NBL franchise………..and privately owned franchises can seem somewhat exciting and you feel as though as a league that you have a ‘tighter’ stakeholder ‘investment’.
However, the financial plight of the owners of the Brissie Bullets and Sydney Kingz has reflected so poorly now that ‘white knight’ saviours couldn’t be found. Why? Is basketball suddenly a bad product? Completely on the nose? Unfashionable?
If the ‘Nix get kicked out, and PG and NJ’s suffer financial ‘crises’, suddenly, public perception might (rightly or wrongly) conspire to paint a less than favourable picture for the HAL privately owned franchises.
Presently, there’s half a chance that for the 4 steps forward (expansion adding 4 clubs) that there will be corresponding 2 steps bac (‘Nix and one of PG or NJs – — worst case here – - as I said, ‘half a chance’).
Again though – - we have spoken about even IF the 12 club comp is achieved and stabilised, that the whole issue of the fixturing (as per Adrians article??) takes on a life of it’s own.
Those advocates (inc Les Murray) of a 9 month season – - will only see greater issues re ground availability and season overlap and potentially too soon initiate the head to head fight with the NRL especially in the many shared markets (perhaps too soon for FFA to declare it’s hand – or, they see NRL as vulnerable now?).
Ronnie from Lonnie said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Good article which raises some points of concern, though it perhaps should’ve been titled “A-League crowds will be down 266k this season” given the ongoing deterioration!!! Standby for ver. 3 – 399K!!!
But what I really want to whinge about (AGAIN) is the FFA’s advertising. It’s woeful. Even sports as big as the AFL and NRL see the need to advertise it’s season and it’s finals with good quality themes and concepts. Remember the classic AFL add based on the Russian space station, ending with the comment “Vat vas dat?”
What does the FFA do? It rehashes that truly awful ver. 3 “90 minutes, 90 emotions” advert, slipping in a few face shots of Aloisi for ver. 4. And they think that’s good enough in arguably the world’s most competitive sports market???? People just won’t ‘turn up’ as a kind gesture.
The only product that I recall being sold using darkness / nightime / ghoulishness as themes are … batman movies. Until “90 minutes, 90 emotions”, that is. When I first saw that add I asked myself if I’d really want to go to an A-League match. So why would it appeal to your average Joe Sixpack looking for safe, family-friendly entertainment for the kids?
It’s sort of like “How much more dark can this advert be? The answer is ‘none more dark’”
Surely it can’t be too difficult a task to dream up a theme. Let’s have a go:
HAL – the computer in “2001 a space oddyssey”. Footbal (of the roundball variety) is on a continental-wide odyssey in Oz. How’s about “2009 a football odyssey”? Not perfect but better than “90 minutes, 88 emotions between happy and sad”
Interesting news on Port Adelaide. At first I thought the drop in support might be the economic downturn, with the kind folk of Adelaide choosing to be more selective with their footy dollar. Supporting the Crows and offloading the Power*.
Then I decided more likely Port’s supporters are revolted by it’s insipid 2007 GF and season 2008 performances and voted with their feet – much like MV supporters in 2007/08 and Newcastle Jets supporters in 2008/09.
* If ever faced with such a choice, will Gold Coast residents choose the Titans over GC17?
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Exactly what i expected, i can even remember my post about the novelty wearing off. But i have delved a little deeper to see if i can put some more light into the acuasion.
Lets start with standard, the standard of the games being played is about right, not perfect but very competitive. So this cant be the reason for less attendence. Interest, now the interest of having the A-league up and running should over-all be good for crowds being in-tised to the games. Holding its own in this department at the moment. Juniors, it seems like there has always been a large base for the game to tap into, so not really the issue.
Coaching , seems like we need to get more clinics up and running with better direction for the juniors, this has cropped up but is a progression factor. Discrimination, this is a area which i would like to consentrate on now if i may hold your attention to this subject for a veiw-point. Sounds a little harsh i know, but you will see my point after i have finished, so please bare with me on this point. This has been my reasoning behind having all four codes work together and understand what this means for each code. Mind you this is only my veiw on the subject, i am sure that others will have a different veiw and will be heard, but i will make my points
1st. Discrimination happens wheather we like it or not, even if we dont understand how it happens, its still releviant in our country and i will try to explain how it happens.
Football= you never notice any larger bodied players in the top league, most players are of equal apperence across the board. Sooner or later you will find that many youngsters who have tried hard and dont have good foot co-ordination or are slighty over-weight will sircum to being left out, or they just might be left out before they begin.
Aussie Rules= this really is a game for taller men, we do see alot of ordinary height players but less frequently these days. The height of the players is getting taller and levelling out so smaller players at grass roots are becoming less disfranchised at having any hope of succeeding at top level. Writing is on the wall so to speak.
Rugby Union= now this seems to stem from problems created with-in. The game growing up around Uni’s and Colleges in this country has had a marring effect on its growth over the years. The game does allow for most type players to be involved but has a stigmar attached to the game.
Rugby League=now this is where the beauty of league really shines, it’s there for all to see and yet really goes un-noticed. This game does not discriminate.. You could be short, tall, over-weight or just plain ugly but yet! you would still be welcomed and have the opputuntiy to play at the very highest level of the game. It has no boundaries for any coach, he treats each child or player the same and he has no intention of singling out any kid from his team. I thought back to my playing days in which we played football and league, during football the kids who were good at this game got involved more, the others lost interest because they could not keep up, but when we played league they all got involved. We used the large kids to bust defences and the quicker ones to run the ball. Even the nerds had a run. Never has the game discriminated .
So this gets to my final evaluation of where we need to be headed, all 4 or 5 codes being played right across the country in every school curricuelum. When we have this we will stop discriminating against kids for what they or there body types might be, in so doing this we will also stop any preduous we have against any other sport, in which the crowds will increase.
sheek said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:26am | Report comment
I apologise for deviating here, but it never makes sense to me to have only one NZ team in the A-League, NRL or NBL. One team acts as a sort of unofficial national team, unintended or otherwise.
If you’re going to have NZ participation, it must be 2 teams minimum. With the A-League, Auckland must be brought back.
Down the track, I can envisage a 16 team comp – Sydney x 2, Melbourne x 2, Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane, Newcastle, Central Coast, Gold Coast, North Qld, Wollongong, Canberra, Tasmania or Sunshine Coast, NZ x 2.
Football will continue to have its problems, just like the other codes. But its future is assured. There’s no going back to the ‘dark ages’. Not in our lifetime, anyway.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Ronnie
I don’t mind the HAL ad to be honest – but you only really ever see it on Fox (that I can recall).
The situation with Port is a fascinating case study. They did win a flag only 7 years after entering the comp (after finishing on top 3 years running) – so by rights, they should have a solid fan base in Adelaide, but then there are these factors to consider:
1. the Crows entered the comp a full 6 years before Port, and indeed won their first of two consecutive flags in the year Port entered the comp (thus winning a big slab of the city’s support); and
2. Port has always been a bit like Collingwood, love them or hate them, there is no in between. In the final analysis, perhaps Port has failed to win support beyond the original Port clan – which might be big for the SANFL, but is never going to be big enough for an AFL club.
There are very interesting lessons to be learned here for the 2nd Melbourne HAL team. Yes, the derbies will be keenly contested and watched (just as the Crows v Power showdowns are) – but that of itself may not be enough to sustain a big fan base for the new team.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
“You could be short, tall, over-weight or just plain ugly but yet! ”
OIkee
that’s the best analysis I’ve read all day!!
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Ronnie , i agree with you, that add on Fox is really demeaning, it shows you a red card and the crowd roars, ? whats that all about then. M.C you seem to think Soccer will bring league down by your comments, wont happen ever, if league can sustain itself in football heartland then over here in oz it would be like winning the lotto. The 2 codes get along nicely, well good enough to co-exsist in England. What your concern should be M.C is the Greek Italian Factor in melbourne, this could have a ( what i call a fanitic) hosing down support wise affect on aussie rules in the future. If and when this happens, then AFL crowds will suffer. Can you see it differently. ?
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Towser –
ah, Russian co-owner, and what – - the son-in-law to be inserted in charge……….ah, nepotsim is but one step from incest!! (i.e. first, you use your family to screw everyone else, and when it all goes bad, everyone else forces you to screw your family).
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
oikee –
only as to whether the FFA – strategically – might deem NOW to be the time at which their irons will be hottest RELATIVE to the NRL’s irons, and so the FFA might decide to ’strike’ now. Would they be correct????
The Australian ‘footballing environment’ means that the relative co-existance of England probably doesn’t project to Australia.
re the ‘greeks and italians’………..and AFL in Melbourne………….dunno. WHo ever knows. I can’t speak too greatly on their behalf, suffice to say, I know a few who love their footy and aren’t impressed at all by the HAL even as a summer distraction. HAL has a lot of hard yards ahead – -
- – and whilst generational change MAY happen, as some forecast – -
- – the reality is, we ain’t talking about an ‘operational sporting vacuum’ here.
btw – AFL won’t suffer from ground availability issues should HAL go 9 months. And, head to head, NRL and HAL overlap FAR MORE SO than do AFL and any other code/major sport.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
I see the HAL ad in cinemas mostly. I don’t mind it but think its a bit generic and artificial. Also I hope it doesn’t make “My People” by the Presets stale before WC 2010 as that would be the ultimate Aussie supporters song.
For mine the only sports ad that has been truly memorable in the past few decades has been the Barnsey / Tina Turner “Simply the Best” for Rugby League. I used to see it all the time in Perth (a non-League state of course) and it was exciting and impactful.
Worst ever sports ad gaffe in recent time, in my opinion, was AFL finals “Thanks for the Memories” (because anyone who knows the song knows it to be highly sarcastic, with the following line being “even if they weren’t so great…”). Truly idiotic choice by the producers of that clip.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Have to say that this is very good news for Sydney having the big Russian Bear on board. Now remember i talked about looking at possitives instead of negatives all the time. Alot of you guys would not realise this but rugby League in Russia is played at the highest level over there. Now the possitive for me is that the Big Russian Bear will see our league games over here at some point and realise what a good game it is and might show some further interest back home in Russia. The trouble with league in russia is that a Billionaire owns the biggest club so the whole league struggles to make ground. This is why a salary cap is such a good institution for codes. See possitve, i like the Bear already.
Ronnie from Lonnie said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Oh damn it, I got carried away with my whingeing and forgot to mention to Michael DiFabrizio that I for one don’t at all expect the addition of GC or Townsville will boost home numbers for Perth, Adelaide, MV or other clubs outside of Qld.
I do expect GC and Townsville will in time consolidate and grow Qld. Roar’s numbers once a local rivalry starts developing. And that’s what FFA and HAL need to do – in the coming seasons put in place the groundwork for local derbies and let the clubs do the rest. Examples:
SFC v. Newcastle (last round’s game probably proves if the team is crap, forget it)
New v. CCM
Qld. Roar v. GC
MV v. M. heart (Casey City)
The Gong v. Newcastle
MV v. Tassie
etc et etc.
Oikee – yes, a couple of extra good points re. the ad. I’d love to know how much the FFA actually bothered spending on HAL advertising. Me thinks budgets are probably very tight and as such advertising gets the ass
Pippinu – agree with the ‘port clan’ remark. Talk to any person from Adelaide and it’s soon obvious Port is loved by it’s ‘clan’ and quite literally detested by the rest of the city. With United’s perfomance in the AFC CL a couple of people I know personally have now developed an awareness, respect and following of sorts for ‘the reds’. But they still hate and detest “The Power”. I sometimes wondered how many AFL clubs Adelaide can truly sustain – and that was in more prosperous times.
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Thanks for that Ronnie, nice to know somebody read the article without jumping to any conclusions. Or worse, comparing me to that biased News Limited scribe Rebecca Wilson.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Oikee – I liked your long post on discrimination as it is an interesting angle. But (and only because someone has to respond to it directly) you have to remember that you have a QLD point of view where League is well regarded throughout the community. By that, I’m saying don’t ignore the fact that League has a big stigma in Sydney / NSW. Its the opposite one to Union, but its equally strong nontheless. So out west the folk see Union guys as snooty private-school gits. But equally where I live in the East, its very uncool to say you like League and it is regarded as a totally bogan sport. I think these stigmas are sad and – like you – I wish for an open, non-discriminatory view to enjoying each code. But thats not the way it is and please don’t think that League has no stigma in NSW. From my point of view it bears as heavy a burden as the other sports do in this respect.
I do 100% agree with you that each of the codes should be on the curriculum of school sports nation-wide. Do you know that in Perth we played neither of the Rugbies at school? Once we got past AFL, cricket, tennis and football it was straight into hockey, lacrosse and stuff. Even some exposure to touch footy would have been better than going straight for those minor games…
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Not sure if aderlaide has 2 aussie rules clubs, but yes they should only have 1 because other codes will affect their crowd level, god help them if league ever goes back there. Same applies to Perth, maybe 2 because of inter city rivalry, but with more codes coming the support will suffer, same again, league will be back there one day when they have everything in place. I have always stated that teams in Queensland is a must, the rivalry between cities is intense up here. Will work in the roars favor. Same applies to coast, their inner rivalry towards brissy is felt both ways. Healthy of course.
M.C have to mention this one to you, my Wife works for a ex victorian up here and he told her he is happy living with the rednecks up here, said we are the nicest people he knows and would never go back to Vic.? Not a good advertisement for the Mexicons.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment
oikee -
Queensland has a soothing feel for Victorians………..it’s like being in the bush but, when in Brissie etc – - you’re NOT in the bush – -you’re in town.
Most Victorians would love to be there other than for the heat, humidity and the size of the gall…….hail………..stones.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Parallel promotion of the HAL by KB -
HAL – 90 minutes, 90 emotions
KB – 90 posts, 90 emoticons
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
btw – the HAL ad – I’ve seen it on FTA in Melb a few times, generally promoting an upcoming MVFC home match.
However, it doesn’t really feel like a ’sports ad’, and feels more like a computer game ad – - which may be what they were after, and if the Gen Y kids are attracted to it and by it – - then, it all comes down to their ability to become a solid supporter base…..
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
One thing that people miss is that there is a BIG difference between an inter-city rivalry and a derby when it comes to crowd dynamics.
Intercity rivalries (eg. Sydney V Melbourne), while arousing more passion than a ‘normal’ game, still fundamentally rely on the support of one home team. The away side is usually based too far away for substantial numbers of fans to travel.
Derbies (currently the only ones we have in the entire A-League are Sydney – Mariners – Jets) are games where a significant number of fans of both clubs can attend; where it’s an ‘almost home’ match for the away guys too, and therefore crowd numbers should be almost 2x ‘normal’ if the game is properly promoted.
Looking at the A-League expansion prospects, we can see the expansion of the ‘Derby set’ around Sydney with either or both of West Sydney and South Coast hooking into the Sydney-CCM-Jets trio. Melbourne is also likely to get a true derby (though interesting question is whether the 2nd Melb club will also focus its inter-city angst at Sydney as MV has, or choose another target – perhaps Adelaide…). Tassie would have no derby, but would have an inter-city with the Melbourne teams…. perhaps. Ditto Townsville with Brisbane as inter-city but too far away for a Derby. On the other hand, transport is easy enough between Brisbane and Gold Coast that the pair can establish what would be close enough to a Derby. Adealide – no derby but inter-city with Melbourne. Perth and Canberra would be cities with neither a derby nor a traditional focal point for any inter-city angst (and therefore would probably market around the fixtures against Sydney and Melbourne as the big bad cities).
Anyway all conjecture but the point is we need to look at the layout of emerging derbies and inter-city rivalries in the HAL and market each accordingly. They are both critical rallying points for fans of the game. But they are not the same thing at all.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
Yes, good points Millster and thanks for clarifying Sydney’s point of veiw. Look to be totally honest i also know that league has a stigma attached to the game, even here in Queensland, but i really dont mind rubbing shoulders with down to earth bogans as you call us, mind you i never considered myself one for liking league, i just find the game good. My wife was a little eadgy when i 1st took her to a game. I think its because of the islanders and large supporters who scare the average guy and his wife that gives the game this stigma. I call it real world and simplicity. These people are living in our neibourhoods, get to know them and lose your own sigma. Just make sure you have the right coloured jersey on when this happens.
I think supporters need to get over their who supports what code issues. As i have mentioned, this starts in the schools.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Hey oikee I found the perfect solution… follow the Raiders and watch your League in Canberra surrounded by cardigan-wearing public servants who are not scary at all!! (just joking)
MC – one thing about the HAL ad and how generic it is. This links into the failure of the HAL to do their community work properly. TV is a major way to reach people and even a 15 or 30 second ad can give a community some familiarity of player faces and names. I understand that FFA marketing budgets are tight but I would think that club-specific ads for each city would be a step in the right direction. Then (as I’ve written before) get those faces on TV out to the real-life training grounds of juniors, to charity events, etc…
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Good point again Millster, this is why league and aussie rules works so good in their respective cities, the fans can travel if they wish to boast numbers so to speak. Last game i was at the Cowboys Broncos had lots of Big hat cowboy fans there. Closet fans? dont know but they do travel them cowboys. Coast like you have said now has rail right to stadium door so to speak.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Bottom line though is that we have to keep working at the on-field product whatever happens.
And I’m pleased to have read over lunch that while Adelaide are in Japan for the CWC they are going to have a chat to Utaka Kahara. 26 years old (so not over the hill by any stretch), a striker and former Japan U-21 international, and a career so-far with Yokohama Marinos and Kyoto Purple Sanga. Just the sort of guy that I think we should be looking at for a decent stint in our league.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Agree heat is a issue in Summer.M.C thought you would bite a bit more than you did, you must be a well seasoned Victorian M.C nothing fases you. Cheers good humoured one.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
I think MC is still a touch stunned after earlier today it was suggested that he wrote this article in quasi-disguise
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
oikee -
re your physical discrimination – - I’ll humour ya’ – - let’s compare my North Melb vs your Broncos
Brent Harvey 172 cm 76 kgs – - vs PJ Marsh 173 cm 80 kg
Matt Campbell 174 cm 69 kgs – -
L.Adams 176 cm 79 kgs – - vs D.Lockyer 178 cm 84 kg
D.Wells 180 cm 78 kg – - vs S.Michaels 179 cm 88 kg
L.Thomas 181 cm 79 kg – - RDavies 180 cm 86 kg
G.Urquhart 181 cm 83 kg
– - vs T.Hewitt 184 cm 82 kg & B.Hannant 184 cm 106 kg (is young Hewitt playing the wrong game??)
S.McMahon 184 cm 87 kg – - vs Karmichael Hunt 186 cm 90 kg
A.Edwards 184 cm 92 kg – - vs D.boyd 185 cm 95 kg
D.Pratt 186 cm 88 kg – - vs T.Carroll 186 cm 101 kg
Ed.Lower 187 cm 80 kg – - N.Emmett 188cm 96 kg
Jesse Smith 191 cm 83 kg – - vs J.Clinton 190 cm 105 kg
S.Watt 193 cm 95 kg – - vs A.Sims 192 cm 109 kg
Josh Smith 195 cm 105 kg
Drew Petrie 197 cm 107 kg
D.Hale 201 cm 103 kg
T.Goldstien 201 cm 105 kg
H.McIntosh 203 cm 107 kg
—————
I’m struggling to find a Bronco over 192 cm tall. A height range of 20 cms, 173 cm to 192 cm. My Rooboys have a height range of 172 cm to 203 cm.
Tell me which is discriminatory???
btw – - when you have guys at 6 foot +/- 2 cms – such as D.Taylor 185 cm and 115 kgs and S.Thaiday 181cm and 108 kgs – - – if you call that a healthy weight for that height………..I’m 185 cm and if I could get back below 90 kgs I’d be ecstatic – - I couldn’t concieve carrying another 20-25kgs.
Towser said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Millster
FIFA also gave them some money. Shame that AU didn’t reap the benefits of the revamped ACL this coming year. They wouldnt be out of pocket $800,000 for the comp. Newcastle & CCM will of course even if they dont get beyond the first round next year.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24772888-5000940,00.html
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Totally agree Millster and MC about the FFAs ads. Hate them – get rid of them!
Money would be much better spent in local newspapers/lradio/ocal community, where Mariners do most of their advertising, followed up with promotional stories about the team, good news stories – visits to local schools, art galleries, hospitals, photo opportunities with homeless refugees kicking around a football or one legged leper kids playing Futsal on crutches.
Get the locals to recognize the team and get a sense of belonging.
Run some promotions, competitions and giveaways, shopping centre appearances, stories of the youth team challenging one of the local all age teams as part of their preparation.
There are hundreds of very inexpensive and worthwhile promotions they could do.
What are the players and coaches up to when they are not training or playing – boozing and snorting with the AFL and NRL boys?
Those dark, dreary, murky FFA ads turn my stomach and make me less likely to go to the game.
Let’s not miss the opportunity yet again, to relate and connect to and tap into the biggest sporting group in this country – those that play football and those that go along to watch their kids, relatives and friends playing football. The FFA only need to get 5% of them to come to an A-League game every fortnight or so in their home town to have absolutely no concerns about attendances at games.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Hang on, hang on. Jimbo et al.
I didn’t say I hated the HAL ad. I actually don’t mind its slightly edgy gothic surrealism if truth be told. And I’m not calling for it to be scrapped.
But equally I don’t think it stands up by itself as the only HAL TV/film ad. It is a generic ad, and should be used for generic ends. It needs to be balanced with specific ads – about players, about games, about events.
The problem for me is not this ad. Its that nothing else comes with it.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
See you left out Hodges and Folou there M.C and your rules guys were getting rather tall towards the end. All i was saying is that league can be played by 5′5 burrows england and 6′7 to 8 inch guys across the board Dane tilse canberra i think is 6′7 inches, the taller guys are at disadvantage because of leg injuries yes, but this is where rules comes in, this is my meaning towards looking for the right talent at schools. Also i noticed that your slightly over weight guys did not get a run. We have Piggy riddell and the pig who flies playing our game, now thats porky. And a guy who should be a jockey, forget his name but he played for the broncos and got sacked, think he was 5′3 so i will say league does not discriminate unless you want to show me a guy at 5′5 that play’s AFL in the top league.? Or a guy that weights 120 kg, we have them too.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
And also i mentioned Ugly, now we have this all rapped up also. You dont get uglier than a league player. Agree Millster.
The Uglier the better isay. Not worried about his looks. Hope there is no league players reading this, they are not all ugly, it helps thow.
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Millster,
love them or hate them, the ads and FFA’s strategy are not working.
There are probably other extraneous circumstances for crowds falling, but that ad isn’t hitting the right chord with a lot of people, as quirky as they may be.
The point is, the Mariners have shown how to get people to games and get contributions and sponsorship and be able to turn a profit within 3 years, without having spent any money on TV ads.
Towser said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
JImbo no argument that so far advertising for the A-league has been piss weak.,particularly in targeting specific markets. Lets face it the A-league is as generic as an ALDI shelf even down to each clubs website.
However we go back to YCPAT. You dont advertise the pub crooner as Frank Sinatra. So unless you’ve got Frank Sinatra on stage you pull your head in & advertise to the only thing that counts in the end,the community.
We harp back to CCM but this club has managed to fast forward what it has taken clubs in small towns 100 odd years to create. A connection with the community. Particularly first & foremost your football community. For instanceThe Roar instantly put the football community in Brisbane offside by being a regeneration of Qld Lions. A club despised by BPL clubs for being richer & therefore able to lure the best local players in that comp.
SFC we wont go their with Stefan & Co.
So because of the generic nature of the A-League big city clubs cannot be bigger than CCM sized city clubs. Hence the big city clubs are now getting CCM sized crowds.
Do they deserve such crowds. Well have a look at the crowds in a league with what I consider a similar standard of football
to the A-League. Division 1 in England.(below).Scroll sideways to see different dates. Seems to me that if CCM can average about 9000 thats about right at this point in time. Hence the Roar & SFC are being brought back to the true average regardless of the size of both cities. MV by astute recruiting have managed to retain a hint of a big city club ,hence crowds more in accordance with their city size. But still slipping back somewhat.
So MIchael answering your plea not to take the mickey on yet another article on the A-League & its crowds. Heres another perspective on
“Expansion alone won’t save A-League crowds”
Which answered from taking the above factors no it wont.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/fixtures?league=eng.3&date=20081208&cc=3436
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Oikee – Frank Ribery is probably the best wide midfielder in the world of football currently, a brilliant French international and Bayern Munich superstar. Not so pretty either, as you can see at….
http://sportzwriter316.blogspot.com/2008_04_06_archive.html
and
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/080609/59/122i8.html
I think this handsome bloke gives most league players a run for their money!
On a serious note, the scarring on the left side of his face happened when he was 2yo – his family’s car collided with a truck near Boulogne-sur-Mer in the north of France.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Oikee- –
yeah, shame to say, AFL isn’t for over weight ‘athletes’………….surely that’s an oxymoron.
I think heaviest AND tallest goes to Aaron Sandilands at 211 cm and 125 kg,
I think there’s a kid taller than Sandilands but not heavier.
There are guys like Josh Hunt at Geelong 186 cm and 100 kg – - that’s RL territory that. Their (Geelong) shortest is Shannon Byrnes at 174 cm.
I did leave out Hodges at 190 cm and 97 kgs.
Reality is – as I’ve often said, for most these guys – it comes down to a pre-season in the gym doing more weights and a little less running that can be the difference of 5-10 kgs. They aren’t necessarily a different gene pool – - some, the islanders – certainly are though.
Most of it is code specific conditioning.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Towser and others. Getting back to the serious stuff, it also strikes me that if the way to go is community, we have to stabilise the clubs in terms of the amount of player movement that occurs. One of the things that makes the HAL so generic is the almost ridiculous merry-go-round between the squads. How on earth can fans identify with players and feel that they have a club that is firmly rooted in their community if those players come one year from somewhere else, and half-way through the following year are already committed to buggering off to yet another club (have a look at how many of the SFC starting XI are already signed with other teams for 09-10 despite their being numerous games to go… its downright ridiculous).
Through a combination of salary cap structuring (eg loyalty relaxations aka the Larry Bird exemption in the US NBA) and other incentives we absolutely need for each squad to have a core group that stays with it for 4-6 years at a time and with which people can really identify. Players in the late NSL who had good runs at one club like Despotovski and Horsley just to name a couple may not have been Messis or Kakas or Ronaldos, but they sure were local heros in their clubs and in their towns and a lot of that had to do with loyalty and consistency.
Otherwise I as a community member will only invest so much of my emotional energy in the team when I know that they will be scatterred far and wide in 12 months time and will probably be on opposition sides. And to make it personal, my SFC cap has Ian Fyfe’s signature on it. If I was a kid, or just someone less pragmatic than I am, how would I feel wearing that cap when Ian turns up next season in Adelaide colours…?
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
oikee -
btw – the broader height range of AFL vs NRL is probably less discriminating – - as, for most people, you can do things about your weight, but, invariably – your height is not negotiable.
also – - over time, rather than the source of the theory of ’statistical regression to a mean’ applied to humans and height, the average height of people has been increasing – -and perhaps AFL in part reflects that. Blame AFL or blame growth hormone in KFC…………it’s up to you.
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Towser, Millster, et al
There’s no shortage of people here that like to stick the boot in to basketball. But there’s actually a lot that football can learn. Basketball’s been where football is now yet still managed to end up where football was five years ago. (Not that this is saying football’s destined to go down that path, which I reiterate was NOT the intention of the article….)
Basketball’s equivalent of the Crawford Report, released back in September, really rammed home the notion of community involvement. It even suggested that local basketball associations should have a small ownership stake in teams in the new national league starting up next year.
So right here in our own backyard, we have a textbook example of how focussing on short-term marketing gimmicks and having a lack of community involvement can impact the supporter base in the long term.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Millster -
glad you mentioned player stability.
from my sheltered world of AFL – people just have NO idea about the volatility of the global soccer player market. (fair enough though that the AFL via trade rules is TOO restrictive – - hard to get the right balance).
And – it’s within the culture and attitude towards teams and team sport and clubs and loyalty that the Australian installment of the ‘world game’ finds itself struggling to define itself, and assert itself…………because, one size dost not fit all.
The above includes AFL states attitudes to private ownership and franchises………..we speak of AFL licences and franchises………but, in the main, it’s NOT involved ownership of the club and the value of a license – well, back in the 80s that was seen as a revenue raising scheme by the VFL. Now – - there’s so much overhead, that the face value of the license can be set a zero – it’s the ability to generate $30m turn over minimum annually that counts.
The ads though, they don’t appeal though, appeal to mid/older teens – - not young families.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
MC – I’m not going to be drawn into AFL comparisons as this article isn’t about AFL – and most certainly not about ownership models.
But the one response I make is that even by global footballing standards, the volatility in player rosters in the A-League is just stupid. So its not about the global player market and global patterns – its not on par with that volatility, its well beyond it – and in my view to the detriment of the loyalty and community-building aspects that we so need in the league.
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Michael,
disagree that the GFC and spending cuts didn’t affect the Winter Codes.
The impacts of the GFC were only felt towards the end of the season when both AFL and NRL crowds started falling off.
NRL were headed for another record season for attendances and then fell to 2004 levels by the end of the season.
Swans, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane AFL attendances all fell off sharply towards the end of the season and the Swans only got 19K to their prelim final win, the lowest AFL finals crowd in 50 years.
The main thing that helped AFL to another record year (only slightly) was the Melbourne teams doing very well and Hawthorn winning the flag.
Will be very interested in the AFL and NRL crowds and ratings next year.
Unlike Basketball, the other thing is that even though attendances in A–League games have dropped off, the ratings and sponsorship dollars have climbed to new records again. International audiences for Socceroos and A-League clubs in Asia are also greater than they have ever been.
Millster,
Good explanation of the local derby and how the away crowds are much bigger when two teams in the same city play each other and can help swell the attendances even to the point when the away support is as good as the home support.
I’m sure a second Syd team and a second Melb team will grow interest and attendances at A-League games in those cities.
CCM are located between Syd and Newc and get good away support to their games.
Towser,
Interesting comparison with English Div 1 crowds – the standard of the A-League is somewhere around there and the Championship level at times.
How well the team is performing is also a factor.
Perth were getting 40K plus crowds when they were winning the NSL and Brisbane had similar crowds when they won the NSL.
While teams are winning they get more community interest and press coverage (free advertising) and this helps the team’s momentum.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
Millster -
well, in that case – if HAL is even worse than par – - then, in Australia to be like that………..well…………code vs code hear might apply a bit – - as, the mood of the crowd in Melb is AFL educated, and we did away with mid season transfers etc sometime ago,
whereas, the mood of the meeting in Syd and Bris for NRL educated is that they (seemingly) accept players like Smeltz (HAL) signing on already for next year with a new club and fulfilling duties with old club for the rest of the season.
So – - just on the ‘local rules’ so to speak – there are vastly different ’schools of thought’. THe irony is that MVFC is the best supported – - however, probably is also the most stable.
Might just be something in that, the ’soccer people’ at the helm need to know their city. ANd, MVFC had an AFL man at the helm in Geoff Lord.
And all that DOES come back to you community engagement (and respect for and recognition of the local community – even if a city of 4+ million.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
MC
I’m 182cm – I remember being under 90kg a long, long, long time ago!
182 cm is/was a funny height, too tall to be a rover, not tall enough to be a key position player – and too slow to play on the wing or flank!!
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Jimbo – just a correction – Glory didn’t regularly get 40K+ crowds except for 2 NSL finals which were played at Subi ovals. Their regular gate was aroundd 13 to 15 thousand at Members Equity (though, of course, by NSL standards that was enormous and about twice the average of other clubs)
MC – notwithstanding the NRL also accepting mid-season contract signings, I would argue that the average tenure of a player at an NRL club is still far longer than one at a HAL club so-far. Its one thing to sign an away deal mid-season if you’ve shown 4.5 years of loyalty before that. Its quite another if you’ve been there only say 6 or 18 months. I think this issue is above the ‘local’ city culture level and needs a league-wide systemic approach and focus on loyalty encouragement.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Pip -
I found growing to about 183-5 relatively early, but not starting footy until age 14, I started on a wing (Chris Langford became my ‘champion’ so to speak). Funny, he went to full back, so did I!!!
But, yep, at lower standards I’d be a short ruckman and light on key position – - if I played higher standards I’d be a more of a half back – - which was a posi I really quite liked – - you can kick goals from there and yet not run as much as a winger.
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Pip
Was that 182 cm , height or waist size.
Dave said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Talking of local connections for HAL teams…one from perhaps unexpected club GCU where 18 yo local lad James Brown has signed a 3 year deal. Well done to GCU and Brown who is an indigenous lad and hopes to get more indigenous youth interested in playing the game…excellent story from the FFA website;
http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/InsideFFA/default.aspx?s=insideffa_newsfeatures_newsitem&id=25381
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Millster,
counter correction – I didn’t say they were getting 40K crowds all the time, just when they were winning the NSL, which happened twice I think.
They held the domestic football record for attendance, before it was broken by MVFC.
Strange how their NSL average is twice their A-League average attendance and I think the A-League team is better and playing better football – also goes to show the technical standard and comparison of standards is not the only consideration for an audience.
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Jimbo – for a while there going to Glory was the ‘cool’ thing to do in Perth. The Eagles were in a semi-slump after their 92 and 94 flags, the Dockers were a basket case, and the Force weren’t yet on the scene. Plus WA was not being looked after in terms of getting a good share on international cricket. And somehow or other the Sth African, English and Continental (Italian/Greek) communities were all being harnessed and were all involved. I could be wrong but I even seem to remember the local Ch7 affiliate running Glory away games FTA on Sunday arvo’s (would have been Sunday evening games ‘over east’).
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
And to MC please understand that my comments above about squad volatility do not apply to players moving overseas (though it is a touch frustrating when decent players leave the starting XI for a HAL club only to warm the bench in Europe). It is only natural that as a ‘third tier’ league the HALs better players will be attractive to, and attracted to, overseas opportunities – and indeed that is in my opinion one legitimate measure of success of our comp. What I am commenting on is the huge amount of transfers within the HAL, which do not serve this talent pathway purpose.
oikee said | December 9th 2008 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Good story Dave, i have also mentioned we need to fast-track the Indigernous players into the code, they are a natural fit. Goes for most sport in saying this, aussie rules has there fair share. I think papuans would be good at football.
Dave said | December 9th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
oikee
It’s just a matter of making sure they get the opportunities, whichever code they elect to play. In terms of GCU it is refreshing to see them recognize the local talent and give them opportunities…certainly one for the future.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Mid
I admit that I am rapidly approaching a 100 cm waistline, and am thinking very hard of counter measures (my seafood risotto for lunch not being exactly what I had been contemplating).
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Millster -
re the success of the HAL – is it the comp itself?, or the AIS academies, and the various touring age group national teams that effectively present the best up & coming youth on a platter to be monitored and recruited as appropriate.
Not sure how much credit the HAL can take – - I guess, the measure might be on how many talented kids spend less than 2 years in the HAL before moving on. ANd perhaps, in some cases, the theory is to just see the kids play against ‘men’ first before recruiting them.
btw – certainly, both the international and intranational player market that especially applies to the HAL are largely foreign to AFL followers – - but, not so much to the NRL folk who even have intercode movements,
although, with the Gaelic boys we have inter code movement, international (1 way) movement, but, via a couple of washed up hacks we’ve had that movement out via Graham, Bennett and Rocca to the NFL…………..but………….what I mean is it’s NOT mainstream to us!!!!!
Millster said | December 9th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
MC – I think the answer is that in a perfect world there are multiple pathways including those you identify and also including a league like the HAL (and associated NYL). One example for this need is Shannon Cole, who at 24yo would be too old to come out of an AIS or junior program yet who showed enough promise in the NSW premier league to force some attention his way and eventually a contract from Sydney FC, and soon thereafter Pim had a look at him and included him in an extended squad at national level (though very fringe admittedly and he was cut from final reckoning).
I do have a view though that the AIS should be formally linked into the league, whether at the senior or NYL level. Many of those juniors will of course have aspirations far beyond Australia’s domestic comp but nevertheless to give them experience against adults (some quite seasoned), in major stadia and in front of decent audiences must have value. I don’t know how, andd don’t pretend to tell that bid team what to do, but if AIS was to somehow work a practical partnership with the Canberra consortium that would make me very happy.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2008 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
That Pim thought Cole could make it in the NT is a bit of a worry.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Millster -
irony, in AFL – some clubs start going on about a ‘no over 23′ recruiting policy!!
I guess, a soccer team can sometimes be managed on more of a season to season basis – - than AFL is for example. Irony then seeing Ben Graham cut by the NY Jets, then plays 2 games as a fill in, then plays 1 game as a fill in for someone else, and now finally picked up by the Cardinals on the eve of the play offs.
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
Here we go again, another “smell the fear” article from a Marn Grook advocate.. Gold Coast United have just about completed their 2009–10 squad and it looks awesome .. This squad is young and has 3 Brazilians in their mid twenties that have played for their country at under 17 level .. I think we will have an exciting competition next year that, will ignite the HAL .. Yes, its been a bad year (GFC) but this will pass, and next season when the Socceroos have clinched qualification; the Football will bounce back in the press that was missing this season … Hold onto your hat… Michael D.. It will blow off in the rush from the Football family returning in their thousands..
~~~~~~~~
KB
True Tah said | December 9th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
The current “90 minutes, 90 emotions” seems like its advertising a dance club event as opposed to a sporting event – it might have been appropriate when All Night Dwight was scoring goals for Sydney FC during the day and lighting up Kings Cross and Darlinghurst night clubs by night.
Luke W said | December 9th 2008 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
KB,
There is no doubt that the A-League burst onto the scene with the help of the Socceroos at the WC. Sure, the “honeymoon period” is over, but with the Socceroos all but qualified for the 2010 WC, I have no doubt that Buckley and Lowy are fast-tracking the expansion of the A-League to coincide with it. They want teams in a wide as geographical area as possible to fully maximise the huge benefits that will come with the Socceroos uniting a nation and creating an interest in football never seen before. It will not be too difficult for football to become the number one code in the this country. The Socceroos must continue to succeed however, and Lowy must use every political tool at his disposal to get either the 2018 or 2022 WC in Australia.
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Hmmmmmmmmm … raw data / exception reports / analysis .. can see lots of these things in this thread.
Using the above criteria, This year the A-League pushed forward into the business end of the NRL & AFL seasons .. result almost no press .. also head to head with Olympics .. momentum dieing.
Some other interesting events media happened from about the start of the season started. Media talking about a depression massive amounts of media. Obama lead up and election pre season and during the start up. Biggest media stories in years hard to get media or spark up interest at this time.
News from start of season scaled back amount of coverage.
Weather almost 70% of Roar / Sydney & Mariner games played in very poor weather conditions and for the family sport lots of mums & dads .. meaning flu keep kids dry …. Also Perth have played in some weather wise very poor conditions Melbourne to have had their share of poor weather as have AU … difference to last season about 60% more games affected by very poor weather.
Sheep Shaggers have been given the poison chalice i.e. play most of their home games at 17:00 on Sunday worst possible time and only done to suit Fox .
Rugby League world cup massive coverage in NSW & QLD by News / radio & FTA TV,.
AFL internationals … again more to disrupt the media.
Meaning in the main shit weather and launched at the same time two of the biggest News stories of the last 25 years go to air. At the business end of NRL & AFL season plus the RLWC and AFL international series.
During the entire off season and for much of last season SBS were in a phony war with Fox and its starting to bite. It has changed this year a bit finally SBS realised Hal was not a 100 year old entrenched sport but only a very new baby.
In spite of all this TV ratings up 7%, membership up 10%, four bidders wanting to get involved in the A-League with strong bids. Central Coast Mariners will announce next week a new 60 million dollar training facility. Socceroos very close to making the next world cup, the launch of a Woman’s league. Yep we are in big trouble.
But have the FFA sat on their hands and done nothing Hmmmmm . No they have surveyed fans, clubs held a number of focus groups. Resulting in not sure yet but football management today is not inefficient.
For those with a hole in their head comparing the backers of Basketball in Australia to those backing the A-League .. you jest of course… For those questioning the franchise system remember the two largest sporting areas of the world Europe and North America are in the main different forms of franchise.
The re birth of football is 3 & a half years old … football will solve its own problems with crowds and it will be with the development of skill as discussed in another thread this is the football way.
Am I concerned .. You bet Ya .. do I think we have the talent and the resources to turn it around ..You bet Ya. But the FFA management team will use modern methods of analysis to fix the problems identified … the ink well ’shit what a piss poor crowed your fucked” .. well hang in their with your ink wells .. someday join the modern world
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Great post and the FFA have been active.. Did you see the interview with the new Dutch Technical Director of Football ..?.. Very impressive and has already started to plan for the future… Funny that the other codes do not care to employ such people ..
Luke W,
yes indeed you have nailed it and I thought the same an overall strategy to coincide with the 2010 Socceroo qualification.. Its a football feast just around the corner…
~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
KB
Missed the interview was it on SBS so I can go looking for it.
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 9th 2008 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Midfielder, although this is contrary to the way my article has been construed, I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.
Like you, I’m supportive of the route the FFA are taking. It’s in the article.
Unlike the accusations flying around, I’m not trying to suggest football is doomed.
In fact, for those that bothered to read the article, they would know I was just looking at the next 12 months, when new teams come in. Hardly a good basis for a “smell the fear” article.
And even then, never once did I say that the next 12 months are doomed. Just that it would take more than expansion to turn things around, as quite a few people seem to hold that opinion.
Look, I love my football, and to be misunderstood and spend a day as an outsider did not really paint a good picture of the football cognoscenti. Perhaps we all need to relax on this us-versus-them culture.
Dave said | December 9th 2008 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
Midfielder Luke
Exactly.
If anything the HAL grew too fast, wildly exceeding all expectations and perhaps blinding us football fans to the fact that it is and will continue to be a hard slog which requires time to build and gain acceptance of the competition to the wider sporting fraternity in Oz. The early success has built strong foundations for a local comp where previously there was none (or very little). In retrospect a slip back a peg or two was inevitable as growth at such amazing levels was never realistically going to be sustained.
Whilst expansion alone is not the total answer IMO it is a major step in the right direction.
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
yes you can see it on SBS TWG and Ben Buckley interview as well…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Joe FC said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
If Michael DiFabrizio wants to be taken seriously then he will have to do better than posting turgid, cliché ridden gibberish masquerading as informed judgment. Sensationalism and flippancy may very well titillate the juvenile mind but considered thoughtful appraisal demands mature reflection. DiFabrizio is simply not up to it. Unsurprisingly his fan club boasts the usual assortment of intellectually challenged historians and conspiracy theorists. Attendances are but just one measure of a sport’s health. Australian football will encounter success and failure as it endures and grows.
Redb said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:31pm | Report comment
Michael D,
Liked your article , thought it more accurate than some of the excuses being made for falling attendances by other HAL commentators and fans. Certainly, you know you’ve hit the mark with some home truths when our fellow Roar posters resort to insults (Caroline Wilson, et al) and bring up a heap of irrelevant crowd stats about other sports and vitriol.
For the record, I like the HAL ads on Fox, there is nothing wrong with the marketing of the A League. Melbourne and Central Coast (where is that again? ), Adelaide United have done well… the rest appear to be struggling. The HAL however is not in the same boat as basketball.
your one hit wonder comment was absolutely spot on, this is exactly the problem new teams/franshises face in a new market, support is fragile. If you add two more teams you’ve jsut relegated more teams to potential ‘fall off’ status.
Why Sydney is not performing crowd wise is a bit of a mystery and is at the core of the A Leagues problems, combined with Melbourne you need a strong Sydney for the code to have relevance in the two biggest sporting and media markets. Especially when the those markets are dominated by AFL and NRL respectively.
Dave, Jimbo,
for the record, AFL crowds hit an all time high in 2008, there are pockets of weakness, but if Carlton, Richmond and Essendon had made the finals and been more successful during the year, the crowd record would have been smashed. Geelong and Hawthorn are 5th and about 7th in crowd support stakes. In other words, AFL crowds could have been even better if the right teams were successful.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
True Tah,
well still waiting on the $7m profit the Wallaroos made in Hong Kong… Link… or what was that 7 min on the loo with 7 bowl motions..?
~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:43pm | Report comment
MD
Ok accept we may have got off to a poor start but here is some good news . http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/a-league/mariners-super-model-should-set-the-trend/2008/12/08/1228584743830.html …
Mariners’ super model should set the trend
Michael Cockerill
December 9, 2008
WELL done Central Coast Mariners. Well done Peter Turnbull and Lyall Gorman for believing in the dream, and well done Kevin McCabe for sharing in it. It’s not often you get a good news story from every angle, but this is one. It wasn’t that long ago the Mariners were on life support.
Now, after last week’s re-structuring of their ownership model, their future is assured. The Mariners are aiming to become the A-League’s version of the Green Bay Packers. A small club with big ideas putting itself ahead of the curve.
The best houses always have the strongest foundations. At the start, the Mariners didn’t have money, but they did have enthusiasm, and determination. Because of that, they have become the role model of a community club – not through largesse but through sheer hard work.
It is these foundations which last year encouraged Turnbull to move his money from Sydney FC, and which this year enticed McCabe, who owns his home-town club, Sheffield United, as well as sides in China, Hungary and the UAE.
In these fraught economic times, it could be seen as folly to be spending instead of saving. But McCabe doesn’t see it that way. “Football is the world game and always will be,” he says. “Put it this way – I travel all the time, and I don’t see its popularity waning.”
Instead, McCabe sees his latest investment in the Mariners as a smart one, not a risky one. He could be right. Having dug deep into the grassroots, where they can now access a database of 60,000 players across the Central Coast and northern Sydney, the Mariners have laid their foundations. Now they have to build the house. Which is where the newly formed Mariners Trust comes in.
It is this trust, which has now assumed the majority stake in the Mariners and is owned by McCabe, Gorman and Turnbull, which will take the club to the next level. A state-of-the-art, $60 million training complex at Tuggerah is planned for starters. The first sod could be turned by this time next year.
There is also the mooted swapping of talent – both playing and coaching – between McCabe’s worldwide network of clubs. Down the track, the trust would like to control the management rights to Bluetongue Stadium. But the first team won’t be neglected. The trust intends to make clever investments – primarily in property – to ensure there is sufficient cash flow to make the first team “perennially successful”.
With the Mariners about to make their debut in the Asian Champions League, the restructure could hardly be better timed. “Think local, act global”. It’s not an original slogan, but one Gorman has taken on board with a vengeance. Just days after winning last season’s minor premiership – which secured passage to the ACL – the Mariners started brainstorming how they would make the most of the opportunity. They see Asia as the springboard, and intend to jump as high as they can. Both local and state government are already on board – last month, the Mariners addressed NSW Cabinet ministers after they met at the Mingara Club, outlining the possibilities.
NSW tourism officials, for instance, are likely to take road shows to China, Japan and South Korea when the Mariners play in the ACL. When they’re playing in Gosford, there will be trade shows held around the ACL matches.
It’s not rocket science, but it is proactive. And that’s what the restructure is ultimately about. One day, there might not be a salary cap in the A-League, and there aren’t too many Frank Lowys or Clive Palmers living on the Central Coast. It could be a jungle out there, and this is the Mariners’ way of making sure they can do better than survive.
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
KB -
Hans Berger in the evenings and Robert Cornthwaite in the mornings……..sounds balanced enough to me…….(well, like my Uni diet all those years ago – - 2 for 1 whopper deals in the footy record!!).
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Redb,
Please explain the 19k at the ANZ semi with Swans vs Nth Melbourne Home Semi final .. Caroline Wilson will let you know with a polite email…
they only hit an all time high because of he hundreds of thousands of free tickets distributed over the whole season, I refer you back to the Roy Masters myth buster article…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
That’s definitely a good news story. I believe Jesse Fink was saying recently that when it comes to engaging with the community, the Victory have done it right on a big scale and the Mariners on a small scale.
It’s little wonder they are the benchmarks of the comp, even if they are truly at the opposite ends of the spectrum (one in a one-team city and one of our largest cities, the other in the smallest market in the league, wedged in between Sydney and Newcastle).
I can’t speak highly enough of the Mariners organization.
Redb said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
KB,
Seems Frank Lowy has had enough of propping up Sydney FC with family funds, no doubt a lack of tax offsets is not helping.
The Russian is coming…. Comrade FC.
Redb
Michael C said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
given the x-code discussions around GFC (global fin crisis – not Geelong footy club) Interesting re financial state of footy clubs etc – -and also in light of the Cairns Taipans suddenly being belly up too.
Brisbane Lions announced a ‘loss’ today – -but, for them, they had an operational profit of $120K (and distributed $113K of that to ‘grass roots’ footy). the Loss was due to their share portfolio – - took about a 50% hit from the highs of Oct/Nov 12 months ago to Oct/Nov now. Nothing is realised, so it’s purely on paper – but, international reporting standards dictate that this ‘impairment’ is added to their P&L rather than just sitting in the balance sheet.
Port Power with a reasonably substantial loss – - suffered as well via having to pay a $335K fee to the SANFL, and having losses from their licenced club!!!!!
Collingwood suffered due to non-core activities with hotels…………somewhere down the line, it seems that footy and business should be very careful about mixing.
btw – the Lions still derived good dividend revenue from their investment portfolio, next year may be different. The irony is that even if it all rebounds, only the impairment get’s reported in the P&L.
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
MC,
Yep what better.?. I thought it to be a wonderful diet for football as well ..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Dave said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
Redb
I think you”re having a lend re Swans…25 years to establish themselves, 3 GFs, 2 GFs and a win only a couple of seasons back, make the 2nd round of finals this year and…ave crowds down, TV ratings well down, memberships well down, record low crowd for finals match…need we go on. l will agree Sydenee is a basketcase but it aint just football. Perhaps the Swans could do with some Red Money…if only they were worthy.
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
Redb,
Great news the future secured and the ACL will be ours.. This man owns Zenit FC, the Russian club he took to the top of the league and the same club that did so well in the UCL … Glad to have you aboard comrade Traktovenko
Sydney takeover complete
9 December 2008 | 18:11 – SBS
email this page print this page change font size ARTICLE
End of an era … FFA chairman and Sydney owner Frank Lowy has agreed to sell his share to David Traktovenko and Paul Ramsay (Getty)
David Traktovenko and Paul Ramsay have announced that they will become the major shareholders in Sydney FC with an equal and combined shareholding of 74 per cent at the completion of the current A-League season.
Sydney urged to splash cash
Lowy gives up Sydney control
Mr Traktovenko and Mr Ramsay have developed a close friendship in recent years and are excited by the opportunity to become majority owners of one of Australia’s premier football clubs as well as be involved in Australia’s fastest-growing sport, the two said in a statement.
They recognise the huge potential football has in Australia and see great scope to grow Sydney FC into an internationally recognisable brand and one of the Asia-Pacific’s premier football clubs.
Mr Traktovenko and Mr Ramsay plan a clear, long-term strategy for Sydney FC that delivers success on and off the field. Key to that objective will be engagement with Sydney’s large and diverse football community, sponsors
and partners.
Mr Ramsay said this was a rare opportunity.
“The Lowy family has made an outstanding contribution to not only Sydney FC but to the popularity and
growth of football in Australia,” Mr Ramsay said.
“I would also like to involve myself in the club, personally and through my business interests, and how it engages with children to make a positive contribution to young people in the community.”
Mr Traktovenko added: “Sydney FC has the most passionate and committed fans in the A-league and is ideally placed to grow its following and performance. I am excited to become more involved with the club’s direction.”
Mr Traktovenko will continue to be represented on the Sydney FC board by his son-in-law Scott Barlow, whose principal remit will be the club’s strategic direction.
Mr Traktovenko and Mr Ramsay are delighted that the Lowy family would continue to be shareholders in Sydney FC.
David Traktovenko is one of the original major shareholders in Sydney FC and has had a long association with top flight European football. He is a former Chairman and majority shareholder of Zenit St Petersburg. He is also the former chairman and joint owner of a top 10 commercial bank in Russia.
His business interests have since expanded to include insurance, leasing, factoring, auditing and consulting activities; and, more recently, large scale residential and commercial property development in Russia.
Paul Ramsay is chairman of the Paul Ramsay Group of Companies which has operated for more than 45 years in real estate, health care and communications.
He is the chairman and majority shareholder of Ramsay Health Care Limited and Prime Media Group.
Mr Ramsay is also a director of the George Gregan Foundation, the Youth Mental Health Advisory Board and
The Australian Science Media Centre.
Scott Barlow is a current director of the Sydney FC board. He is the founder, managing director and a major shareholder in the STRADA group of companies which operates a commercial and residential property
development and investment company.
Mr Barlow has previously held positions in corporate finance and corporate strategy.
~~~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | December 9th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Dave,
you better take some of those Big V powders (Vincent powders) you are soon to be overtaken on the ladder laddie.. the “special one” is back on the case…
Sydneyiski a basket case .?.?.
~~~~~~`
KB
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Redb,
AFL finals crowds were actually down this year on last year and overall only a 0.5% increase on 2007.
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/summary.html
If you look more closely at the figures, there was a sharp drop in AFL and NRL crowds towards the end of the season, especially outside Melb for AFL and outside Qld for NRL.
All codes are going to go through bad times in the next couple of years and expect to see a worrying drop in AFL and NRL attendances next season.
KB,
the Russian Oil Billionaires Mafia are taking over SFA and Kossie to be shown the door for the Special One – you heard it first here on Roar.
jimbo said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
After a great start to the season and looking like breaking their attendance records again, the NRL crowds dropped off towards the end of the season to fall back to 2004 levels.
http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/summary.html
The attendances at NRL finals this year were 10% lower than what they were in 1999.
Where’s the Rebeccah Wilson News Limited article pointing out the crisis at the NRL and highlighting the falling attendances, TV ratings and sponsorship dollars?
Midfielder said | December 9th 2008 @ 11:43pm | Report comment
KB
So you got a commie running the place now hey … into the Vodka another Borris Yeltsin maybe… Kossie can do that dance the Kossacks do and change the flying Choppers to the sitting kickers .. see that Russian ref a few weeks back was actually your new owner..
REVENGUE on Saturday night F the Choppers in the words of the Daleks in Dr Who… EXTERMINATE or maybe the android in an episode of Lost in Space… CRUSH, KILL, DESTROY
Scott B said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:23am | Report comment
Are crowds that important???
If the quality of football continues to improve , who cares,
The a-league should be seen purely as a developemental league. Helping players to go on to bigger better things. Enforcing australia’s playing style and ambition.
Let football be important to those that care,
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 5:23am | Report comment
Scott B -
crowds HAVE been made important by the ‘growth’ being used as a marketing and political tool to promote the league. So, for crowds to drop – - well, enjoying and crowing about the good times, you have to face up to the bad times.
Attendences are the financial icing on the cake – - (incorporated with memberships, and memberships are driven generally by attendences – i.e. the value of a pre-sold and reserved seat are increased when the likelihood is that all the good seats will be taken if you don’t have such a seat).
True though – the HAL should just be regarded a developmental league……..it just seems that some people have gotten ahead of themselves (not all).
btw – when the crowds improved – V1 to V2, was entirely on the strength of MVFC rather than across the board. V2 to V3 was 2/3s due to Wellington Phoenix as compared to NZ Knights. There have been highly significant markets doing stuff all, i.e. Brissie and Sydney – - but, all the crowing about overall crowds seemed to be a deliberate attempt to gloss over that 2 of the big 3 markets were flat lining.
Crosscoder said | December 10th 2008 @ 6:18am | Report comment
Jimbo.
just on NRL crowds ,according to official ARL stats the average attendance(15,5950 is in par with last year(o7) and becomes the 3rd highest crowd average in the history of the game>it is separated from the 07 average of 15,751 by .099%.
Club membership grew by 24% in 2008.
In sydney and brisbane the 2008 SOO occupied the top 3 rating FTA programs of the year,out rating all olympic events.
Nationally the series occupied the top 3 rating positions when olympics are excluded.The 2008 series was the highest rating series in history with games 1 and 2 breaking all previous benchmarks before origin 3 set yet another new figure for the largest Origin TV audience in Oz Tan history.The FTA ratings for NRL were down slightly in sydney and up in brisbane,the pay Tv held steady and the uunder 20 comp at times had ratings that beat some S14 games.the under 20 comp has now a new multi million dollar deal with Fox.
More people played rl in the game’s centenary year than in any of the previous eras.There were a record 445,000 participants in juniors,seniors,schools and masters comps around the nation this season.
licensing.At the end of the 2nd qtr this year the NRL’s licensing program was up 22% on last year. ie %65m in sales for 2 qtrs.
The sponsorship program had its biggest year ever with revenue of more than $23m for the combined rights of the NRL/World cup and centenary. Rugby league(the head bodies) achieved a 100% renewal rate of existing partnership agreements in 2008
All this in a financially tough year,with the SBW drama that affected dramatically Bulldogs crowds and their ordinary performances,and some ordinary weather.Hardly the stuff to get worried about.
Suggest Rebecca Wilson does a little more research if she posed the doomsday question. The same person stated no one cared about the”predictable” world cup,which achieved a $5m plus profit.Her absence sans foot in mouth has been noted.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Dave, Jimbo,
You can throw crowd stats for the AFL around all day. The point is the AFL may experience a drop due to the GFC in crowds but that will be transparent. I think the troubles highlighted by Michael D’s article show that there is more to the HAL crowds drop than just economic conditions.
Err…the reason AFL crowds outside of Melbourne dropped away was simply due to the dominance of Vic clubs in this years final 8 and finals. The average for the comp hit an all time record.
I’m not saying the AFL is immune to crowd fluctuation of course it is , for a variety of reasons, but again you fall into the trap of comparing to the HAL.
Even with MV’s healthy crowd average by HAL standards, crowd number levelled off way before the GFC. This is symptomatic of the HAL as a whole, which is why you can’t just blame the GFC.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Err…the reason AFL crowds outside of Melbourne dropped away was simply due to the dominance of Vic clubs in this years final 8 and finals. The average for the comp hit an all time record.
See Roy Masters article myth buster; the reason was the end of the freebies at semi finals time.. Michael D is another “smell the fear” writer .. Whats knew comrade .?.
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Actually – - crowds often drop away in the lead up to the finals for a coupla (few) reasons -
A. the team you play against has fallen right off the radar, so, you get stuff all of their fans coming to see them get belted,
B. the followers of the team building up to a finals campaign are saving their dollars for the finals series (such as potential treks to around the country, especially should they make the GF, or at least for a prelim final)
C. unlike the HAL, the AFL runs concurrent with ALL local footy comps. Many local footy comps begin their finals series during August, juniors especially – - the priority for many families etc is to participate directly at grass roots level – and kids and adult players too – are far less likely to take a week off to go to the footy as they build up to the conclusion of their own season.
D. the best part of the snow season, coming out of coldest July, into August, you can get some ripper days up on the Alps, with good snow and sunshine.
E. coming out of the shortest days etc, the cold of July, suddenly hitting August, and the odd sunny afternoon – - unfortunately – outdoor household chores often take priority…………….I know that. (and early planted for the ’spring crops’).
F. even a 22 round season is plenty long enough when you’ve come across winter to get to it. I have no idea how soccer folk believe that a longer season is good for them…………if the players can’t learn to kick a sphere off the ground in 21 rounds……..what’s 27 or 30 rounds going to do for them????
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:09am | Report comment
KB,
I’m not going to put up another post about how this was never meant to be a “smell the fear” article and that I was only looking at crowds over the next 12 months and not the long-term health of the game, etc.
But I will say this: the only fear I’ve been smelling in this comments section has been coming from football fans.
One sign of someone perceived to be an outsider showing criticism and the football fraternity are all too ready to pounce!
Funny, isn’t it?
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:03am | Report comment
F. even a 22 round season is plenty long enough when you’ve come across winter to get to it. I have no idea how soccer folk believe that a longer season is good for them…………if the players can’t learn to kick a sphere off the ground in 21 rounds……..what’s 27 or 30 rounds going to do for them????
MC,
your ideas are representative of a dinosaur .. The longer the season the more apt you will be for total professionalism .. In Europe they play unofficially 12 months of the year a 10 month season .. Throw in international commitments; lead up games to the season proper; the confederation tournaments; its a non stop 12 month football season with players playing up to 60 games a year…
Today’s Football climate belongs to the committed professional with enormous financial rewards.. The days of a kick and giggle suburban leagues are over. They will die and be forgotten left only for the the romantics of a pub social football team.. As the good Californian US professor Tobby’s sport study on globalisation has revealed .. Slowly but surly it’s going down that road of globalisation ..
We in Australia and especially Frank Lowy have realised that the season for football in Australia is far too short and small. If we are going to match it with the Europeans on a confederation level, then Asia has to structure itself the same way.. That will eventual be a longer season with more teams and more professionalism in the ACL. With more professionally capable teams across the board to become champions.. There is no other way, grow or die, withering on the football vine with old world concepts riding on the a sheep’s back ..
Michael D,
yes I agree it is funny as you an AFL advocate putting up a “Smell the Fear” article on a Football blog; for what purpose .?. Other than to continue to try and stifle the progress of the HAL to grow… I live on the Gold Coast and I can tell you the enormous expectations with the Gold Coast United FC to make its eagerly awaited debut in the HAL… Yes indeed its funny you object to it.. 8(
~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Michael D,
check your profile again; whoever wrote it has painted you as a Marn Grook or Grooky follower as I like to refer to the indigenous game to avoid confusion.. We Football folk can “smell the fear” when one posts up such articles along the lines of your comrades… ;(
~~~~~~~~
KB
Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Michael D
Could be that this was about the 10th (felt like it anyway) article on the same topic…just getting a little sick of the doomsayers and those ready to jump in when there is a perceived problem.
Perhaps an article on the good things that are happening in football now and how the situation has improved out of sight in the last 5 years. Write a negative article and you will get lots of responses.
Towser said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
KB
Agree completely about competing on the world stage we have to have much longer seasons from a competitive angle.
I remember once talking to my grandfather about footballers & their off season which even back then in England was probably in reality (given pre-season training) the same as today. I made an innocent youthful comment that they deserved the break must be hard a close to 10 month season.
“Off season off season weirs ma off season lad” was his reply’ Ad swap em any time fur ma job,20 quid er week(football wage prior to 1962?) fer keepin fit ,most er blokes on ma shift er deeud bi 50, un a dint ger a holday til ah wer 55. He was a file grinder in a steelworks & worked 12 hour shifts till he was 70.
Put playing football & real life into perspective for me.
They used to say that you should ignore the league tables in England till after the Xmas break as football clubs only got going then. This would be around the length of the current 21 round A-League season. A check of records long term over the seasons will prove this statement to be valid.
Craig Moore a veteran of overseas football leagues said recently that the A-League was way to short to prepare him for International football. I’ll take a seasoned professionals word for it.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Dave,
So only good news stories allowed on futbol in the Roar. Hmmm… the Russian influence already comrades.
The fact that articles have appeared in Fairfax papers about falling HAL crowds points to this issue being both topical and relevant.
Redb
Towser said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:50am | Report comment
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24777129-5000940,00.html
Interesting article about what Sydneys new owners need to do to improve crowds. Whilst I fully agree with Robbie Slater that in a market like Sydney an International recognisable(to the football public firstly & secondly the general sporting fan market) marquee player is a must ,what is more important in my book is what Branko Culina said:-
“Some of the decisions made by the club were by non-football people and a lot of these decisions were short-term and this has led to some of their current problems.
“The new investment is much-needed, but it is important that the money is used wisely.
“If the club need to pay $150-200,000 a year to a director of football to oversee scouting and player recruitment then so be it.”
MV did this straight away,why did Sydney think they didn’t need to? Puzzles me.
Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Towser
re comment about not getting going tilll after Xmas, there’s also the point that what players manage to do at the end of the European Summer, and what hey are able to do in the middle of a depressingly cold Winter – can often be two very different things!
Speaking of playing talent, lengths of season and the like, people may be interested in my most recent opinion piece on FourFourTwo:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/90843,blog-too-much-of-a-good-thing.aspx
Nothing in there about crowds – I promise!
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Towser,
Frank Lowy was the reason more money was not put in. He has stated in the media that he was not prepared to keep propping up Sydney FC with money. Now it’s Comrade FC that may change.
Redb
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:19am | Report comment
“But it’s believed Lowy became exasperated with the continued financial calls on his resources, despite a stringent cost-cutting exercise embarked on by Kemeny.”
here’s the link.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24770460-5006068,00.html
Redb
jimbo said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
MDi,
We don’t enjoy having to talk about A-League crowds either and would rather have an intelligent conversation, but that seems to be the focus of the Anti-Soccer Hooligans lately.
A lot of what is posted is quite frankly wrong and you all should take a look at the problems the other codes are facing and not be so obsessed with A-League attendances – people in glass houses . . .
Falling attendances is really the only thing going in the wrong direction for the FFA and it will bottom out eventually and head back the other way.
Everything else appears to be heading in the right direction and doing very nicely thank you very much, although no one in the Anti-Soccer Hooligan brigade cares to want to mention it.
The most significant thing is that the national football governing body FFA, has finally turned a profit for the first time in its history – a not insignificant net profit either at $12M.
This is after an $11M loss last year – that’s a $23M increase in net profit over 2 years – does that sound like a sporting body in crisis? Is that the failing pulse of a national football competition that is going to die?
Did Rebeccah Wilson mention the financial health of the FFA anywhere in her “Soccer is in Crisis” article?
Crosscoder,
Not sure where you are getting your figures from, but have to agree to disagree there.
Both of the SoO games in Sydney failed to sell out this year for the first time ever and TV ratings were down, not up.
Goes to prove the point though, that you can always find “facts” and statistics to back up your article or post.
“NRL finals crowds in 2008 were 10% lower than in 1999” sounds pretty negative doesn’t it?
If the News Limited editors had asked Rebeccah to write an article on “NRL in Crisis” or “AFL in Crisis” or “Australian Rugby in Crisis” there would have been plenty of material to work with.
But which code did News Limited’s Rebeccah choose to comment on and how many more papers did they sell and websites did they hit with their anti-Soccer “story”?
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Jimbo,
You lot are being over sensitive. The HAL crowd drop is real and not just a Roar poster thing. Michael D’s article dared to suggest deeper causes than the popularist GFC excuse.
Below is a link from The Age blog and soccer writer Michael Lynch published by the Melb Victory sponsor. It seems its not just the Roar crowd that are talking about this. Of course he spins it just like most of you lot.
http://blogs.theage.com.au/sport/archives/2008/12/accept_the_alea.html
However, it wouldn’t a be a subject if there was not some deeper concern. In the end, the HAL is running, the news of AFL and NRL crowds aren’t relevant. Basketball crowds are also in the spotlight.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Redb, Dave and Towser,
anyone who says anything in the slightest negative context about Grooky you guys (Redb, MC, Pippi) fly off the handle.. it cuts both ways … So don’t be a hypocrites and we will get along fine…
Now read the real interview with Frank Lowy on Sydniski FC and you will see Frank Lowy is still in there but wants to concentrate on setting up the FFA and win the 2018 FIFA world cup… He says that will be his focus from here on end… Total commitment to land the 2018 FIFA world Cup… SFC will always be his club with still a 15% holding…
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/a-league/regrets-i-have-none–restructure-puts-sydney-fc-in-safe-handssays-lowy/2008/12/09/1228584839557.html
Towser,
good post, yes indeed your grandfather was right and I saw that interview of Craig Moore’s as well .. Totally correct and Paul Okon said as much of the HAL Football season ie is far too short..
~~~~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
KB,
hehe… that’s the spin article. The truth was in the first article posted.
Redb
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
KB,
The HAL honeymoon is over, welcome to the real world. It’s easy to avoid negative articles when your the up and comer on the OZ sporting scene with crowds growing,etc. But now in the spotlight your all like stunned rabbits. If I flew off the handle at every anti- AFL comment on the Roar I’d never leave the keyboard .
Comrade.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
If I flew off the handle at every anti- AFL comment on the Roar I’d never leave the keyboard .
Reb, I think you just made my point clear to everyone.. We don’t nearly write anti AFL posts as much as you guys do… about Football… on a Football tab…
You are thicker than we football folk have perceived.. How could a one on one interview with Frank Lowy stating his reasons being a spin article.. He states clearly he still remains on the the board as a safe guard ..
The work load of worrying about SFC and FFA are too much as he says he has a bigger fish to catch; the FIFA 2018 WC .. Don’t you see he knew weeks ago he got the go ahead from Kev2018’s email: “clear your desk lad and go get it Frankie” … What a wonderful relationship these two lads have… comrade …
Sydniski FC for the Championship, it’s in our blood.. Comrade…
~~~~~~~~~
KGB
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
KB,
So are you suggesting the first article is incorrect?
Comrade.
Redb
Towser said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Midfielder
More good news for the Mariners:-
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/90870,mariners-get-another-1m-boost.aspx
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Redb,
or are you suggesting he holds the same values you do… and Dickie Pratt..?.. No, the continued pressure to let go, due to a conflict of interests that I could never understand; had finally wore thin. As he said, he was not going to let go until a good owner came along… Now he can feel free to catch the big fish… Comrade..
did you read the FL, man on man interview being asked the hard questions and answering them truthfully
~~~~~~~~
KGB
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
Kb,
As someone who once expressed a loose affection for Carlton you are indeed closer in spirit to Dick Pratt than I. He is Carlton scum.
COMRADE.
Redb
jimbo said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Redb,
no football supporter on the Roar has ever denied that HAL crowds are falling.
What about all the other aspects of FFA’s operations that are going very well?
There are also signs that the other codes are in for some lean times ahead too.
Basketball and Cricket have seen as big or bigger drops in crowds and ratings than the A-League.
Just looking at some balance here and not all the focus on A-League crowds, which keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.
Midfielder said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
Tower
Thanks for the link… very clever what they are doing essentially most football teams of any code earn revenue via media / crowds / sale of merchandise / supporter groups & sponsors.
The Mariners have identified new forms of revenue and are in negotiation for a number of potential revenue streams. First the building of a 120 room motel and training facilities, second the a joint venture with a local club which is will provide land and fields for the motel & facilities, and buying the stadium rights for Bluetounge. Additionally by creating a world class football academy they in time will be able to transfer players for fees.
The clever thing about the stadium rights is the NRL play about 10 games each year at Bluetounge to fly the flag on the coast. Catering revenue and ground hire revenue from these matches will go directly to the Mariners, further talk is a RL franchise will come back to the coast and if they do the Football club will profit.
The real funny part is you, Jes & me maybe Das KB & Jimbo Dave are the only ones that know by acknowledging you need to improve our skill and offering to help so others how to improve there skill the Mariners have grown from nothing tohaving close to 4 million in local sponsors with no major sponsor, a Sydney investor changing ship in Peter Turnbull and now oversea investors, along with heaps of local groups like the afore mentioned club ( link to this story on our site scroll to near the bottom and see the club meeting notice)/ also we have this year the lingual Central Coast beach football competition … get it on the coast the beach is important connect show the skill same game plan new format.
From nothing within four years to owing the rights to our stadium / a 60 million training facility/ close to four million dollars in sponsors / a youth academy / our own be it small club while SFC & Newcastle both in much better positions are both falling way behind …. even football people but certainty the SFC people just did not hold true to the simple model.
Midfielder said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Tow
Forgot the link http://marinators.net/forum/index.php?topic=2657.0 remember link to this story on our site scroll to near the bottom and see the club meeting notice
Midfielder said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
Tow / Jes & MD & others
The local high school near me is Epping Boys a once very proud rugby high school … this is how the skill thing works watch this and at about the 1.20 thing would this kid have made a crack 5 / 8 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_m6WN-s8fBk&feature=PlayList&p=BED586F9CC149116&playnext=1&index=85 and rember street football and this type of clip is what the kida watch and hunger to learn http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RxOeyJ8EWZY&feature=PlayList&p=BED586F9CC149116&index=89
Midfielder said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
Tow iKB MD Dave Das
Anyone out there just put up a post worth watching but may take a while to come tho.
Crosscoder said | December 11th 2008 @ 6:34am | Report comment
jimbo
The figures I quoted are the official ones from the ARL on the NRL State of the Game issued just prior to the final series this year.
The figures did not state the crowds were sellouts in Sydney(seeing there were 2 games on).I am stating the ARL official figures”The 2008 Harvey Norman SOO series was the highest rating series with game ! and 2 breaking all previous records before origin 3 set yet another new figure for the largest Origin TV audfience in OZTam history”.
You are welcome to disagree me if the figures don’t suit you,however these are official figures from the ARL and OzTam.Whillst there may have been a drop off in one state,it was more than made up by others and regionals.
As to Pay Tv why would fox pay millions of dollars for the net under 20 NRL comp,if it wasn’t a raging success on Pay TV>
Down 10% on 99 for the GF,one from memory in the daytime and the latter late afternoon.Grand final crowds have fluctuated for G/F for decades in the AR/NRL.It is not a new phenomena.
Interesting home crowds were up on 2007 at 8 of the 16 clubs(broncos,titans,knights,Dragons,Roosters,Storm,Raiders an Sharks.the club that dragged the averages down was the Bulldogs.
Interest rates and fual charges were a darn side higher in the wineter months of 2008 ,than they are now,so the slight drop in NRL/SOO crowds is a reflection of still strong support and resilence in financially trouble times.
i don’t have any axe to grind with the A league,I played soccer(ok football) for 5 years as a kid.I am simply stating what another sport acvhieved this year.
jimbo said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
If the effects of the GFC started back in January, then why did the A-League have its best ever crowds during Jan and Feb as part of Season 3, which was its best year ever. That’s when all the home attendance records were broken.
The effects of the GFC didn’t really start to bite till Q3 of this year.
If you look more closely at the attendances and ratings from Aug on, you’ll see that they started to fall for both NRL and AFL and the finals crowds and attendances particularly are down.
As an example – NRL GF 2007 rating 2.422, NRL GF 2008 rating 2.051 (20% drop).
Then look at Basketball and cricket crowds since Aug and the same sort of drop.
Its not just a “soccer thing”.
I am a fan of most sports and love watching NRL and other sports, this article has got flaws and doesn’t fully account for the GFC impact on all codes and is particularly focused on the drop in A-League crowds.
Norm said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
“this article has got flaws”…jimbo…that’s an understatement!
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Jimbo
To support what you are saying from The Age today;
Swans Forced to Cut Costs in Football dept After Loss
Despite reaching finals for 6th successive season SS’s total membership fell by almost 6,000! , corporate support dropped by between 10-15% and ave crowds at Telstra Stadium fell by 16,000 per game with overall aves also falling.
Add this to the fall off in TV ratings and the lowest finals crowd for 50 years.
This together with the losses of BL and Pt Adel indicate all may not be running so smoothly in the AFL juggernaut either, particularly away from Melb. it cant be fobbed off as being because of poor form because SS made 2nd round of finals.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Jimbo -
AFL finals crowd was down on 2007 by about 3,000,
571K vs 574K – - – now, how much was that figure distorted by 19K up in Sydney for 1 match in particular. Take that out, and crowds were rather healthy really, with more finals crowds in excess of 70K than any other year with a final 8 in place.
‘98 was the only other year to top the 2008 finals figure, and that was 572K.
So, had North played Sydney in Melbourne……let me suggest we would have set a new record……and we know that half the problem with the Swans game was that holding it at Homebush provided zero imperative to books seats early (as the SCG would have done). That the crap (COLD and wet) forecast meant people sat on their hands all week and were very unlikely (as proven) to buy tickets come the latter part of the week. Let’s be careful about overstating the importance of that. It’d be like claiming that ‘only’ 36K or whatever to Suncorp to watch the socceroos was a dodgey result – - but, they HAD bought tickets and the weather kept people away (and the start was delayed until the weather had passed, and people with tickets still opted to stay home!!!).
The drop off in crowds in the H&A portion – is interesting.
Using the round avg crowd, which equates to 4.5% of the season as the base line, in 2007, there were 2 distinct periods of ’sluggish crowds’, rounds 4-10 and 17-19.
In 2008, it was a different pattern, rounds 8 & 10, and then 13&14, and then 18-22.
Question is, is it just a redistribution?
Is it that more teams were pulling up stumps for that last month or so? (esp Port Power, Melbourne, BOTH WA teams…….)
it’s not entirely possible to take too much out of the AFL crowd dynamic for 2008. Not as a ‘proof’. (however, Melb MAY have been ‘hiding’ it, as I gather that Melb was for a while a little more ‘insulated’ than some other parts of the country).
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
A few of you may be interested…
I just listened to an ESPN podcast with NBA commissioner David Stern. He said this year’s season is on par to match last year’s in terms of attendance (and last year was the third-biggest year for the league attendance-wise.)
This is in America, at the heart of the GFC.
Food for thought.
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
MC
The only reason AFL finals were up is because there were more Melb teams playing at the bigger MCG vs previous years.
When interstae teams played Melb teams the crowds ran at about 30-40% ground capacity.
Crows v Coll 37,000 out of 52,000 capacity
Bulldogs v Swans 42,000 out of capacity 100,000
Swans v NM 18,000 out of capacity 82,000
Perhaps further indicators of GFC?
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Didnt see your YT videos till now. Youve got no idea of the chill it sends up my spine when I see Aussie kids understanding by their ball work the true essence of Association football. Emphasised by the Brazilians in the other clip. Control of the football & understanding that I’d never thought I see it in Australia.
When I coached it was like flogging a dead horse
In one of the teams I coached I think under 11’s the catch cry was “Look at Ricky Go”. Ricky was a powerful for his age, fast as the wind player, who made up for his lack of ball skills at that age because of his other attributes. Scored lots of goals sure, but I knew he never make a professional footballer overseas. He had little mastery of the ball, but could push it ahead run on to it & with his superior speed & strength leave the other kids in his wake.
He was in reality a prototype of the sort of player Australia produced for the Socceroos, before the better ones started to leave for overseas clubs & be exposed to whats really required at the professional club level. But even they had to be eventually coached by a “Dutch Master/s ” to know whats required at International level.
Good to see the Mariners setting the trend in the A-League for players with the “ball knowledge” to be produced.
Surely the rest of the clubs will see the light on this.
It cant all be left to the FFA to take responsibility in this respect.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Dave -
I don’t mind all the other Swans metrics, but – “ave crowds at Telstra Stadium fell by 16,000 per game with overall aves also falling.” this is still mischevious. As I’ve indicated, the Homebush avg was the 3rd best since they started playing there. With 1 extra game. It was the 2nd highest number of attendees at the venue they’re had, only surpassed by 2007.
The 2008 SCG avg was 25.4K, vs 2007 was 25.2K. So, the SCG average was UP, marginally, despite the construction works.
The 2007 season was just super good – but, included the misleading 60K+ crowd for the StKilda game with the many thousands of women for the field of pink cancer awarenss promotion. The overall avg was up on 2005 which was a premiership year. People are trying to paint that crowd issue as a doom and gloom………..but………..it was actually a pretty good year,……………it’s just that 2007, off the back of consecutive GFs was a super year,………3 crowds of 60K + I don’t think anyone would imagine that was going to become the norm. As it was, the stretching the friendship, testing the water, being a little greedy, with 4 games, drew 35K, 45K by 2 and 59K+. For the 3rd best HOmebush avg with 1 extra game……………I don’t think the swans would complain about that.
BUt – - certainly, on memberships, ratings and corporate………yes,………you’d be concerned. The Swans at least provide a unique marketing ‘outlook’ to the Sydney market…………..and for now, they might be pleased there’s no 2nd AFL team to share it with.
And for now, it might be argued that an extra team in the GC and Tassie would actually enhance the uniqueness of the Swans national marketability relative to the Sydney marketplace.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Dave,
AFL finals crowds were OK, if you consider that only Collingwood of the big 4 made the finals, there was plenty of room for upside. A healthy 570,000 fans who attended 2008 AFL finals series in September when as you and others suggest the whole sports market went to shit solely due to the GFC.
The HAL honeymoon is over, GFC or not.
There is weakness in the sports market, but what your not quite accepting is that the AFL has 3-4 clubs that had poor seasons and still managed to AVERAGE a very good overall crowd result. The HAL minus maybe the stagnant but healthy crowds of Melbourne, as a whole competition has seen a large drop in AVERAGE attendances. There is difference.
Objective fans simply don’t care about HAL teams enough to attend. This is naturally I belive a result of an immature competition not having enough time to cement itself in the traditions and hearts and minds of generic sports fans. It is easily forsaken than say the rusted on fans of AFL clubs.
So whilst you can point to pockets of weakness in the AFL, the overall crowd numbers reveal a rusted on fan base, all other sporting comps whether its the HAL or NBL as weaker comps will suffer more in these times. It’s a little like companies in the economy, strong companies with good balance sheets are still going to suffer a downturn, the newer perhaps weaker companies with higher debt will struggle much more.
Redb
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Dave -
last year (2007)- – the record – - saw PA host WCE at AAMI with 37,750 which compares to Ade hosting Coll in rnd 1 of finals with 37,684 (true, in 2006, Ade got 42K hosting Freo in rnd 1 of finals)
Haw hosted Ade at Dockalnds in 2007, for 36.5K in wk 1 of finals
but, in week 2, WCE hosted coll, and ‘only’ drew 43.6K to Subi, and then Port ‘only’ drew 45K to AAMI for their Prelim final.
- – - reality always is for interstate sides, especially when they’ve been ‘up’ for a few years, that the dollars tend to get stashed a little to save for the ‘big’ finals should they need to travel (at short notice).
——- the reality is, no matter how you look at it, the averages will be boosted because the MCG is really the only venue (other than Homebush) that’ll take over 60K, and in reality over 50K. The Melbourne numbers will always boost the overall average – - that’s why it’s hard to take a definite guide out of it.
Remember, in 2008, Geelong were clear favourites, and with 4 Vic teams in the top 4 – - the Adelaide and Sydney folk weren’t getting too excited. Adelaide had recently lost their greatest ‘X’ factor player in Brett Burton and the Swans had probably thought that 6 rounds out that their season was over and it was more an unexpected bonus to make the finals than a serious campaign. (making a final like this is the opposite to when a team on the rise scrapes in for their first final in a number of years…………a very, very big attitude difference in the supporter group. I was there with North Melb from 93 to 2001).
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
MC,
I know a few Adelaide fans, they were knew their season was gone as soon as Burton got injured. Curiously, muck like ANZ stadium in Sydney , AAMI stadium is really on the nose over there. There has been a lot of publicity about the need for a new multi purpose stadium near the Adelaide CBD (similiar to Docklands in Melbourne).. Having attended the last Showdown, i can confirm AAMI is a crappy 1970s pale brick out of the way shitehole. Some impact of all live Port Adelaide games there with Foxtel as well for the first time.
As for Sydney, similiar to Adelaide Crows, fans knew their prospects slim. In Sydney’s case they climbed the mountain and had little fresh blood to excite the fans. It won’t improve next season either. Paul Roos with his crappy playing style has to go and more youth injected.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Well it looks like expansion alone won’t save the Marn Grook league; Sydney Swans released depressing last season results .. Members down; Attendances down and TV ratings down.. Hmm looks like the West Sydney and Gold Coast will only remain a dream …
Start printing more Freebies lads..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
KB -
how to you include Gold Coast in your summation with West Sydney???
Dave and Redb -
Redb, calling 571K ‘OK’, it was the 3rd best ever and only bettered by 1K and 3 K respectively. And, as you say, NO Essendon, Carlton or Richmond, and Collingwood imploded at seasons end with H.Shaw and A.Didak suddenly out of the squad, seemingly the ‘PR’ put ahead of club finals campaign and having the best side on the ground and they dropped out of contention for a top 4 position………………so………………a bit better than ‘OK’ I’d've thought.
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
More food for thought out of the States….
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061002&content_id=1695261&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Major League Baseball season just finished had the second-highest attendance of all time. Also, NHL doesn’t appear to be struggling crowd-wise.
Only the NFL, which is far more tilted towards the corporate and high income dollar than the everyday fan, is suffering.
Michael DiFabrizio said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Wrong link, sorry…
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081001&content_id=3578763&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Koala Bear said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
MC,
An inspired quote from Andrew Demetriou .. “2012 is not a done deal yet”
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
KB -
yep, in the meantime, GC17 are going to forge a mighty strong under 18 side!!!!
If the HAL wasn’t so relatively cheap, by comparison, the FFA would be seriously considering all options too. As it is, the FFA should be very, very careful…………….as, a sponsor going broke can be very bad, an owner going broke, as in the NBL can be catastrophic………….there’s good will at present towards the HAL, but,………….if 1 or 2 teams fall over (due to owners going bust combined with clubs failing to generate profits – - over the next year or two, don’t count on the reported – in the past – long list of potential bidders still being there as robust as you’d like them to be).
Anyone carrying debts at present is in big trouble – - just look at Rio Tinto,
and ABC was brought down by their debt.
There’ll be a bit of ‘restructuring’ happening, a few people will lose their paper fortunes and if they can’t then service their debts – then they’re kaput and if they OWN a HAL or NBL franchise………..then………….good night, she said.
on that, good night, I said.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Michael
Baseball is the sport in the USA I consider the most similar to English football(could be arguments nowadays at EPL level) that is the one that is most community orientated.
So relating it back to the A-League we look no further than CCM for this community approach rather than the corporate one.
Its no coincidence that out of all the clubs in the A-League the “Cleanest” in regard to past history is CCM. They could invent themselves as they went in a non football area.
SFC had the Lowy/Hakoah connection, Roar the Qld Lions/BPL connection. Newcastle-Con & virtually same NSL club,Adelaide & Perth the same. MV had to persuade what had largely been a strong ethnic football market to follow a new club NZ clubs were basket cases.
Koala Bear said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
MC,
that’s interesting.. So the under 18s are going to play for nought in what competition and for what again did you say.?
In the meantime they would be wondering about if they made the right choice.. As Clive Palmer is wooing the local juniors into the National Youth League and a chance to go to play in the ACL .. Hmm I know what I would like to do with my life in the next 3-4 years with professional football .. Did you see that YouTube that Midfielder put up..? I thought it was a demonstration of amazing football skills by our youngsters …
Just remember the Toby Miller sport report on Grooky expansion lads …
Midfielder,
Sorry to have not been around to congratulate you on that fantastic bit of research of the kid’s incredible skill sets; what these kids are performing in park Football is fantastic .. In my day we did not show such skill and dedication .. Wow, the future looks bright for 2018 ..
~~~~~~~
KB
Boris the Mudcrab said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Expansion for expansions sake is frought with danger.
ALL competitions should be bunkering down for the next 2-3 years
AFL – Sydney’s West is really hurting. Probably the hardest hit in Aust in the current financial crisis, Swans interest is down and TV ratings are nearly to the extent that the networks dont want to show the games as repeats of the ABC’s “The Bill” beat the daylights out of the Swans games. The Swans are NSW’s AFL team in a state that is only moderatly interested when they are going well
SOCCER – Crowds way down, Interest in Socceroos way up????????????. I can see a similarity in Union where the Wallabies have great interest and support, but at state & club level has very little going for it. Super 14 gives the diehards some quality footy.
No interest in Free to air coverage for Super 14 and Club Rugby as well as the “A” League. I have very strong doubts about the strength of the new teams and competition when in real terms the standard is not real high at 8 teams,
Rugby League expanded willy-nilly a few years back and was found out with regards to the standard of play. Players who previously would have never played 1st grade footy were now regulars in the top grade.
And lets not forget the economic situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crosscoder said | December 12th 2008 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Jimbo
Not arguing it is not just a soccer thing.Nor the G/F and final series crowds.Nor the drop in Sydney crowds.
What I was trying to point out that interest the effect of the economy.It hit hardest durinng the winter months not (jan/feb) for interest rates and fuel costs.Throw in the fact NRL clubs followers in general St George,Souths,Canterbury find the Olympic stadium lacking in atmosphere and a Bulldogs which performed so badly,its a wonder their execs bothered turning up.
Yet as pointed out 8 of the 16 clubs were up on 2007 figures.Performance had a lot to do with it.
I will repeat the average crowds for 2008 15,751 a drop of only .99% on 2008.Finals series were down on Tv and at the match,and when did the economic problems of the world hit the fan September.I had the thrill of watching my super take a massive dip then whilst on holidays,after paying exhorbitant amounts for fuel to get there.There is only so much in the personal till and of course it effects all codes.
Crosscoder said | December 12th 2008 @ 6:59am | Report comment
Opps should have read “affects” all codes.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 7:17am | Report comment
KB,
GC17 will compete in the TAC Under 18s in 2009, the VFL in 2010 and the AFL in 2011. There is squud made up of mostly Queenslanders. You talk about the HAL needing new clubs to inject further interest, the AFL has not expanded since 1996, the Gold Coast and its exicting team of young Queenslanders represents a similar chance to boost interest in a mature competition.
Get behind them.
Clive Palmers mercenaries make for good press and a possible weapon for GC17 in the any code war Palmer may want to start. GC17 is about young Queenslanders playing our native game, GCU is about money.
Redb
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 7:18am | Report comment
err…that should be squad.
Dave said | December 12th 2008 @ 7:56am | Report comment
Redb
How long has the AFL been in Queensland…late 80s? Now after 20 years they have decided to make up a team of locals?
“GC17 is about young Queenslanders playing our native game, GCU is about money.” Crap! Do the AFL wear white and those nasty evil football people always wear black?
QR have been going for 3 1/2 years, they have a team of locals in the NYL which travel around the country playing games…GCU will also have a NYL team made up of locals. Why should people on the GC get behind the AFL yougsters and not the football youngsters? Words such as mercenary and native game and code wars are just emotive clap trap. If the AFL people are going to stoop to that level to try and get some interest in their teams…
jimbo said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:12am | Report comment
I don’t think the GFC is going to kill off any sport in this country.
We are a great sporting and sports loving nation and all codes will bounce back.
Just another point, the FFA is not expanding the A-League to save it, the expansion plans were put in place 2 years ago while the sport was on the big rise. There are no cold feet or shortage of takers either.
We now have 3 consortiums bidding for the 2nd Sydney Franschise in 2010.
Interestingly one backed by the Schwarz, one backed by Lucas Neill and the third one, a Wollongong bid backed by Tim Cahill.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Dave,
I was responding in fashion to KB, I dont see you challenging KGB on some of the tripe you know is ‘crap trap’ about the AFL. So I’ll assume your indigination is limited and subjective
However, Palmer has business interests in Asia and its no secret he is using this club to further those money interests, it is also true that he is searching far and wide to recruit rather than focusing on local Queenslanders. Palmer actually drew first blood with code war rhetoric a couple of months back, I did state IF Palmer wants to start a code war then GC17 has weapons to fire back.
Get a copy of todays’ Fin Review, the special magazine section (Kewell’s $11M) has a piece on money and sports stars and the relative ladder in international sport for sports in Australia. Palmer’s money drive in Asia is quoted there as well.
Redb
Joe FC said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Redb
Australian rules football might very well be the native game of Melbourne but it is not so of Sydney, Brisbane or the Gold Coast. That GCU is about money is only your opinion. You can choose to ignore the large numbers of individuals ( male & female ) involved in association football throughout Queensland. They participate because they love their game and they relish the enjoyment, the camaraderie and the opportunities it provides them. As for “any code war Palmer may want to start” you should limit yourself to knowing your own mind and avoid any claim to knowing what others think.
Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment
In fact the Brisbane Football Club was formed in 1866, now defunct. See this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_football_club
I’m sure GCU will come close to matching the crowds of the new Gold Coast Football Club in 2011. They’ll have a one year start and plenty of financial backing, no excuses.
Dave said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Redb
Will forgive you this time
l hope both clubs can be successful.
etat said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Agreed Joe FC,
Although I don’t think any code war on the Gold Coast will really involve the AFL. Despite the influx of people from the far south, GC is still R.League territory. League and Assoc Football will pair off for a bit of a dust up. Should be amusing.
Aus Rules is great sport and should build an international prescence along with an expanding domestic base. The lack of international competition means Rules lacks a little something. It should also dump the hybrid gaelic series with Ireland or adopt those rules and be done with it.
Finally, someone with the contacts and cash that Palmer has better be recruiting from outside of the Queensland. I think a talented kid from south Tweed would be a little put out if he was excluded for not being from Queensland. The more quality Chinese players in the A League the better. Palmer might deliver a few with his recruitment policy.
The Link said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment
etat, I see no reason why GCU needs to square off against AFL on the Coast, or especially the Titans.
The A-League season is particularly structured to avoid clashes with the other football codes.
Remember also, without the Titans, there is no GCU.
Koala Bear said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
I was responding in fashion to KB, I don’t see you challenging KGB on some of the tripe you know is ‘crap trap’ about the AFL. So I’ll assume your indignation is limited and subjective
Redb,
let me explain .. When Dave and I talk Football we are as brothers; we are united as one in “Australian Football the native game” (and I don’t mean Grooky) the HAL was born in Australia and also is a native as any other code and may I add the clubs are native, as young as they may be…
Dave, and I have a bit of fun with the banter between our preferred Football Clubs .. Its a nice relief from the nonsense, you Grooky followers subject us football folk to, on our own forum called “Football”.
Being a concerned resident of the Gold Coast, I do not want my tax paid dollars to go to a $200m (oval 45k ?) white elephant that will only service less then a dozen games of Grooky a year on the Coast, with nothing else played on it… Just to satisfy a Melburnian fascist by the name of Andrew Demetriou, who has now hesitated to say as quoted that “the 2012 GC17 expansion is not a done deal “.. Where is the dough he said he was going to spend some $100m on the stadium.?. Not a word or a cent .. He wants the GC taxpayers to fork out the dough before he commits to the G17 franchise.. I say commit $100m Andy to the franchise now.. Then we will think about updating the Carrara stadium ..
The Gold Coast United FC has not cost the taxpayer a cent as the skilled stadium was built for the Rugbies and the taxpayer has welcomed the GCU Football Club as an additional tenant to reduce the costs of up keep .. Not to increase the cost on the GC taxpayer… This is an intelligent bipartisan deal with the Rugbies, Football and taxpayers..
As a suggestion taken from the reincarnated Michael-Moses-C, who has delivered a revised 10 commandments on another AFTL thread. As I recall one of his commandments (?) states .. Thou shall be able to play on a field with no qualified size or dimentions .. Therefore, the Robina Skilled Stadium would suffice and save the GC resident of a false $200m fork out on a new Grooky stadium.. In other words.. use what is there, or you pay for it, or blow off…
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
RedB,
and may I add I don’t see you supporting Dave against MC what you know is clap trap against Football .. So in turn what you say is subjective also …
~~~~~~~~
KGB
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Dave,
No worries.
Etat,
I think it’s improtsant for the AFL to grow teams in enw regions with local talent. There are genuine young Queenslanders who play quality Ausse Rules starting their careers as a result of GC17. to me it’s a real selling point to the local population, that say the Bris Bears (full of Vics, SA, WA players) lacked. The Gold Coast represents real expansion, using local AFL players, rather than transplant teams and palyers like the old Swans, Bears in the AFL and Storm in RL.
Etat and The Link, I agree there should be less of a battle between GC17 and GCU which is why I was surprised Palmer himself targetted the new AFL team a few months back. He hasn’t said word about the Titans, maybe he fears a bigger backlash which is probably the reason as you imply RL is the biggest beast. They will share a stadium,etc and the Titans have got their act together with great marketing.
cheers
Redb
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
KGB,
MC gives you a dose of your own medicene. My comments were directed at you and Dave chimed in, that’s now sorted
Redb
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Joe FC,
Get a copy of today’s Fin Review glossy magazine it’s their in black and white re Palmers intentions. This is an opinion website and Palmer has form re code war rhetoric – it’s fair comment. Watch this space.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Redb,
surly you mean we give MC a dose of his own medicine you and the rest of the “Smell the Fear” advocates..?.
We all know on the ROAR football blog that the “Smell the Fear” advocates work for either Kaos (Melb Herald) or the AFTL ..
Clive Palmer, was born and bred on the Gold Coast and once an ex junior RL player .. Is he doing anything different to you lot who live in Melbourne … Surly not… ? He can see a future in Football with the Asia confederation .. If it was about the money he would have put his support with a Super League Chinese team.. So please don’t be rediculous…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Dave1 said | November 11th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Classic….Clive Palmer. I hope he’s doing things different to the AFL for the AFL’s sake.
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
KB -
firstly – - how wrong you are you perhaps will never know (or be willing to admit to) : We all know on the ROAR football blog that the “Smell the Fear” advocates work for either Kaos (Melb Herald) or the AFTL ..
and Redb – - with regards to types and brands of medicine……………..I’d have thought that mines got a slightly greater scientic background than the whiskey smelling potions and balms of messers KB, Jimbo and Norm…………….KB’s travelling salvation show…………..
……did ye get healed? ………………or heeled?
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
KGB,
I can speak for others but I have no link whatsover to either organisation. You Comrade I’m not so sure you don’t have some covert operation running down at the CRSL
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 12th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Redb, MC,
It’s called the resistance…
~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Persistence beats resistence.
Redb
Norm said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Redb said “GCU is about money.”….is that like AFL expansion putting West Sydney before Tasmania?
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
I wrote this article in my blog exactly 8 months ago:
http://pippinu.blogspot.com/2008/04/tassie-show-us-money.html
Dave said | December 20th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Midfielder, the NSL didnt last for 50 years it lasted from 1977 until 2004.
Michael C said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Norm -
presently West Sydney to the AFL vs GCU to the HAL are totally, totally different (at least in the short term)………..can you discern the difference???
btw -
notice Wellington Phoenix was doing 2 for 1 ticket deals for the game on Friday (Dec 19th)…….and drew a massive 6722. They’ve got kids (up to 3 with an adult) get in free for the Jan 4 game……..let’s see how many they get for that?
Michael C said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
Is John Aloisi the most over paid and over rated ‘footballer’ of any code in Australia………….what a sad sight, and being booed off by his home crowd……..
………2 own goals……………..oh my gawd…………….yep, expansion alone can’t save from that!!!
Redb said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
ahh the fickleness of Sydney fans, at least they didn’t boo the Swans. Fancy booing your million dollar marquee player, a decorated Socceroo to boot and the man who put through that penalty against Uruguay – what a disgrace. ;-( Hang your heads in shame Sydney FC fans.
I guess this is the problem when HAL takes on too many has beens, we will no doubt wait until Viduka and kewell are past their best, suck the fans into thinking they’ll see the real thing and then disappoint. Still, a little respect for Alosi please.
Redb
Norm said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
Michael C
the the only difference is the one you are conveniently conjuring up out of thin air. Redb claims that GCU is all about money & maybe it is. But that is exactly the AFL rationale in promoting WS before Tasmania. If its good enough for the AFL then why is it not good enough for the FFA? You are certainly becoming adept at chicanery & deceit.
Redb said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
Norm,
“Money, money money, It’s rich man’s world” – ABBA’s tribute to Clive Palmer……. then oops the world just turned into an economic toilet and those bucks are going down down the drain.
Apologies that I actually know this line from an ABBA song, it’s really the only one I know, really
I agree with you though, Tassie should come before Western Sydney.
Redb
Norm said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
Redb
compliments of the season.
Dave said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
for MC and other AFL devotees who seem to enjoy deriding SFC (they deserve it at times no question but lets put some facts on the table)
Lets compare the Sydenee Swans who have been in that market since 1982 with their first 12 years or so to give us an understanding of how well SFC are going:
SS
Year Members Finishing position² Average Home crowd
1982 7th 15,993
1983 11th 12,025
1984 2,750 10th 12,497
1985 2,777 10th 10,137
1986 4,927 4th, semi-finalists 25,819
1987 3,594 4th, semi-finalists 22,032
1988 2,516 7th 12,311
1989 2,631 7th 12,317
1990 2,624 13th 9,178
1991 2,907 12th 11,521
1992 3,020 15th 9,881
1993 3,097 15th 9,423
1994 3,327 15th 9,813
1995 6,088 12th 15,949
So in fact SFC after 4 years are doing much better than the SS in the same time frame….and after 12 years of existence with all the freebies and money poured in by the AFL SS had….3,327members!!!!! and ave crowds of 9,813!!!
Currently after 3 1/2 yrs SFC have ave crowds of 12-13,000 and 7-8,000 members (l believe).
This in “The Game That Made Australia” according to the …AFL… In a city where there were no other AFL teams to take members away etc
The news obviously isnt all bad for SS because fast forward and after 26 YEARS and playing in finals 7 of the last 8 yrs including 2 GFs they now have 26,000 members (although they have dropped 6,000 members in one year from 2007 sort of makes MVs membership drop of 4,000 not too bad).
So the point being l think SFC (no one can seriously believe they are doing well either on or off the park at this stage) need just a little more time and come back after 26 years to see how things are to make true comparisons.
Midfielder said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Bridge / Aloi$i / Musialik / plus a injured Colosimo.. Arguably the best buys of the off season had many nay most going how are they keeping all this talent under the cap.
The one common thing that has brought them all down is ??? was maybe on the big screen today. However Karma must work as when Kossie send out his team to kick the shit out of us (Mariners) last year he like the Socceroos before and the witchdoctor Kossie brought a curse on his coaching that can never be lifted.
To the tune John Paul Young when he sings ” I Hate the Music ” …. I Hate the Choppers..
For Aloi$i … what a waste of money … again ..what a waste of money … and lets keep going for KB & SJ ..what a waste of money … what a waste of money … what a waste of money
dasilva said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
Huge news on Wellington phoenix in the A-league.
Sepp Blatter – almost exact quote
When teams from one association will play in the other association. It is not the matter of the confederation, it is the matter of the FIFA Executive Committee, it’s in the statute to decide if it’s a problem or not. Therefore this problem is not an Asian problem, it’s a problem has to go to FIFA. If Wellington will go on play on in Australian League, then as long as australian league wants to have them and wellington wants to stay. Both association in this case, New Zealand Soccer and Australian Football are happy with that then we will give them the blessing. The confederation can not interfere with that.
Midfielder said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Das
Saw that will put Obie One in a difficult position IMO.
Blatter said essentially it was FIFA decision about the Nix and my reading was that FIFA gave special conditions to NZ and those conditions can only be changed with FIFA approval via the FIFA excutive committee.
So I see no change to the current position both players wise and ACL wise.
The point that Blatter did make …is.. ” Blatter said as long as the Nix and FFA wanted the arrangement to continue it would”.
Two things are a concern for me with this statement … first how will MBN feel and how much he wants his own way i.e. blackmail Lowy over the World Cup to dump the Nix … as a counter its obovious FIFA want the Nix in… so if FFA dump Nix maybe no hope of getting WC…. Second if as I understand from what Blatter said nothing changes Australia will only get at best 3 ACL spots i.e. another form of Blackmail … Australian sponsors want as many ACL places as possible even if the Nix get one… as a counter if the Nix went the with MBH approach to only having 4 NZ players then no problem with making the ACL or being in Australia… but then difficult to market to the public in gereral…
Poor old Obie One .. I think its called the “meat in the sandwhich” this is still going to require all his skills.
Joe FC said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
dasilva
that is certainly reassuring news for Well fans. I must admit though as someone who originally supported NZ participation in the HAL I’m starting to go cold on their continued involvement.
Sam said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
Good research Dave. Give Sydney FC another 5-10 years before making comments. By the way the supporters booing the team today is all about passion. It shows the fans truly care about the club. It may not be an AFL thing, but it is a football thing.
Sam said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
Das
I would prefer to see Wellington thrown out, and put in Melbourne, West Sydney and Canberra as the next three teams. This will create a nice 14 team comp which is where the expansion can then stop. Wollongong and Hobart can then come in once there is a bit of stability over the next 10 years (if there ever is).
Koala Bear said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
Lads,
interesting strategy employed by the “Special One” today.. The mind games are in full swing with the “Scottish One”.. After today, it seems none are prepared to give anything away with the coming block buster at the TD.. Nor their final attacking line ups if you take this weekend’s round of fixtures seriously .. The defence in both camps seemed were well drilled to create a false impression that they are truly easy beats .. If you think now that SFC are poised to finish the season out of the 4 .. Well think again lads.. This is going to be a race to the finish line starting next week ..
What a week we will have installed for us Football folk; dissecting what will be the match of the season.. Yes a lot will be riding on this encounter next weekend; the winner to go on and win the championship and the loser to start their planing to rebuild for the new season.. That’s all I have to say tonight lads; as I am gong to have a Bex, a hot cuppa, and a good lie down, to await the final of the WCC Final on SBS..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Dave said | December 21st 2008 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
KB
Likewise will be tuning in to see Man U become Champions of the World!!!
Will be at TD next week for MV v SFC…will give JA a booooo for you
Midfielder said | December 21st 2008 @ 8:03pm | Report comment
The irony is to hard to resist Kossie problems complete with Bling from the stars to solve his problems… then cheating by taking the axe to the brome or maybe its Christmas and I am in a funny mood … but Mickey Mouse and his mounting problems all self created .. and the wizard must be that new Russian owner …
If you have never seen it before Mickey Mouse in the Disney classic Fantasia The Sorcerer’s Apprentice is this Kossie coaching
[url]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=LD8HDta7Z_4[/url]
Midfielder said | December 21st 2008 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Great game Man U won .. the send off a bit soft … Imagine how hard it must be to defend against that Man U attack did they play some beautiful balls today.
Midfielder said | December 21st 2008 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
Present for me Gotta love this from Galatasaray fans … great mix of songs
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kv5HCs6u3pQ
Michael C said | December 22nd 2008 @ 5:33am | Report comment
Norm / Dave-
the difference is that Sydney Swans was (rightly or wrongly) a relocated out of town club from a (considered) foreign code into the heartland of the enemy.
(Dave) SFC sure isn’t, they are a home grown club in soccer heartland, NSW – with everything going for them including the big boss (FL) and an Aussie Hollywood star.
(Norm) GCU – - is entirely about the money for Clive Palmer. He isn’t so much focussed on ‘growing the game’, considering he’ll play his first game in China……..to further his business interests and about as far from Mermaid Beach as is possible (perhaps that suits him?).
AFL and West Sydney – - if it’s about the money it’s certainly a far more long term equation…….more like 50 years down the track. It IS about seeking to gain greater access to the NSW/Sydney population base – - it’s about the main achillies heel that get’s quoted so much – - by some tossers on here – - that the AFL is dealing to 48% of the population………..well………step 1 now is to get 2 teams in each of NSW and QLD and have a game a week in each market. Is that purely about money………….well………you can believe it is. Is it about broadcast rights………probably. Is it abut growing the game……….certainly……..’cos the AFL have and will continue to pump funds into those ‘development’ states.
Norm said | December 22nd 2008 @ 7:21am | Report comment
“considering he’ll play his first game in China” – what’s the difference between HAL teams playing a promotional game in China & AFL teams playing a promotional game in the UAE?
“by some tossers on here” – does that apply to everyone who disagrees with you?
Dave said | December 22nd 2008 @ 7:28am | Report comment
MC
Foreign code?? The AFL tells us this is the “Game that made Australia” !! You cant have it both ways.
The AFL pumped tens of $millions into the SS and continue to…SFC havent had that.
The comparisons are very strong and indicate that it takes some time for a NEW team to grab a foothold in Sydenee.
SFC still have time and should be judged in the next 5-10 years on their successes or otherwise. l have no doubt that after 10 years they will be doing much much better than the SS in comparable time frame.
Redb said | December 22nd 2008 @ 7:29am | Report comment
Norm,
And to you.
now Dave, when are you going to get a life.
I think we should set up a virtual boxing match with you and MC – statistics at ten paces etal. 
Redb
Michael C said | December 22nd 2008 @ 8:05am | Report comment
DAve –
quote fully if you’re going to bother quoting relocated out of town club from a (considered) foreign code into the heartland of the enemy.
You’re being childish in the extreme to pluck out as you have – when you know very well the figurative context. You’re just trying to be a trouble maker – - – -which to me suggests either :
A. you have no one to buy xmas gifts for
B. you completed you gift purchases 3 months ago on e-bay
C. you haven’t yet realised there’s only a couple of days left before Xmas such that
- C.1 – you haven’t got time for e-bay purchases
- C.2 – you’ll be one of those people shopping at 5 minutes to midnight on Xmas eve……
Michael C said | December 22nd 2008 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Norm -
it’s a massive difference if it’s the first ever game of a brand new franchise trying to capture the Gold Coast market……………………why would you go well and truely off shore?
Totally different – - therefore, isn’t admissable as a precendent.
Dave -
so they ruddy should……….with the grass roots support for soccer in SYdney(NSW) – - the Sydney SWans ruddy well ought to be a ‘poor relation’ of SFC…………………SFC thus far simply illustrate that soccer is still mis-managed and seemingly ‘missing something’………………work out what that missing ingrediant is and you’ll become a millionaire.
– - – might be goals and action!!,
Koala Bear said | December 22nd 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Lads
First thing first, congratulations to Man U, the new World Club Champions; Champions of the world … well done .. I thought it was an extremely good advertisement for the tournament watched by billions of Football fans around the world with a blanket TV coverage.. Sort of makes you laugh when the Grooky folk compare its TV deal with big brother..
Anyways, Adelaide FC as proven that Australian Football is heading in the right direction with its success so far this season and its brand has been exposed across the world competing in the FIFA WCC ..
In comparison the NAB corporation, most probably pulled the plug on the Grooky expansion concept in Dubai and India because of embarrassment after seeing this magnificent advertisement for Football, and now are searching for a club in the HAL to sponsor .. I sort of remember they have a small link now; no doubt this will change shortly .. ..
But what now for Grooky’s Swans delivering bad news on its membership abysmal TV rating in NSW and Qld.. Their TV deal only with 2 more seasons to run before the cut and the pending demise of the expansion of Grooky into the Gold Coast and West Sydney .. Oh yes, we have heard that their long term strategy is over 50 years well let me tell you, it will need every day as the relentless push of “Australian Football” (and I don’t mean Grooky) will dominate in 50 years according to Professor Toby Miller of the University of California with his thesis and study of globalisation in sport..
If Demetriou was serious he would have granted franchises in the these frontiers already, but he does not believe they are going to work or he would have done so already .. Yes the Grooky expansion concept is a furphy
Clive Palmer on the other hand, the successful born and bred Gold Coast Boy putting his money back into the community is being suggested that its about the money .. Oh really ?.. The ignorance of such a suggestion, because he is taking the GCU FC on tour to China; huh, please explain..?? .. Demetriou was hoping to relocate the Grooky Bengal Lancers backing them to the tune of $100m and has not promised the GC17 cent .. Demetriou please go and get a life..
and stop this pretence or alternatively give them the nod now or are you all bullshit .?.. 
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | December 22nd 2008 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Norm -
if you believe ‘tossers’ does apply to all those who have disagreed with me…………you may be correct………….but I wouldn’t dare to suggest it – - I’ll leave to such idenfication and categorisation to an expert in the field.
btw – the comment was made around the fool hardiness of suggesting anything in absolute terms…….i.e. that all of Vic, SA, WA & Tas are 100% AFL/footy anyway, let alone the suggestion that NSW and QLD are 100% anti AFL. It’s a silly comment that is patently inaccurate and counter productive to decent discussion. Almost as pointless as suggestions that AFL is a white middle class game………………..?!?!??!
Dave said | January 3rd 2009 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Dave your comparison of the sydney swans to sfc is intersting. In 1982 there were more peole going to socer games in Sydney than are in 2007. in 2007 there are more epoeple going to AFL in Sydney than were in 1982