By Forgetmenot
December 10th 2008 @ 1:57am

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Ten reasons for poor international AFL growth

Faster, higher, stronger. If you don’t recognize it, it is the official motto of the modern Olympic games. But it also describes football perfectly.

The game of AFL football is played at a far faster rate than in previous generations. Players are always striving for that Jesulenko mark, and players are being modeled into muscular athletes that make players of the eighties seem puny.

Football is a game that has everything going for it. But interestingly, it is also the football code which has the smallest global reach.

This article attempts to examine reasons why football has failed to make a large impact outside Australian shores, while other sports have.

Reason 1: It has too many aspects to it
AFL does encompass all three aspects of the Olympic motto (Faster, Higher, Stronger). Are all three of these too many to have in one sport? None of the other sports encompass all three to the extent that AFL does, as identified briefly below (each code given a score out of 10 for each part):

- American Football: Faster (F) 7, Stronger (S) 9, Higher (H) 7
- Association Football: F 7, S 3, H 4
- Football: F 8, S 8, H 9
- Gaelic Football: F 8, S 4, H 5
- Rugby League: F 5, S 9, H 6
- Rugby Union: F 4, S 9, H 7

You can read the identification yourself, or perform your own, but in any analysis it is clear that football does have a large amount of each aspect in it.

Apart from that analysis we can look at the skills used in the different sports and how hard it would be
to learn, watch or use the skills.

The basic skills of AFL are marking, kicking and tackling. They are hard to learn, easy to master, but near impossible to perfect.

As a sport to pick up and start playing, it lurks about halfway between football and union.

The following list ranks the codes from easiest to hardest in playing straight away at a basic level.

1. Soccer
2. Gaelic
3. Rugby League
4. Football
5. American Football
6. Rugby Union

At its most basic level AFL is a very simple game to pick up and learn. Possibly the unique nature of kicking the ball is an obstacle towards people picking up the game and learning it.

The game does have an extraordinary amount of rules. However, again, at a basic level, it is very easy to learn.

After briefly discussing this reason, we can safely say that it has no large effect on preventing the spread of AFL, and if anything the nature of the game should be a catalyst for growth.

Reason 2: Australias comparative low emigration (and high immigration)
Australia is a country where people immigrate too, not emigrate from. As a result there are not high numbers of people spreading the game around the world. American Football has a similar situation, but its large population, economic and political status in the world means that the sport has many other opportunities to grow.

Rugby union and football, both started in Britain, have had the benefit of high emigration numbers in order to grow their respective codes, with the latter taking the most advantage of the situation.

As time goes on, AFL will grow as people emigrate and travel around the world spreading the sport. This reason has had a large influence on the poor comparative growth of the sport overseas.

Australias high immigration levels mean that there is always people coming into the country who have not been exposed to AFL. A large number of these people, if exposed to AFL in the right way, will go back to their previous countries for holidays and spread the game.

Reason 3: Australia is not a cultural hub.
Australia was originally a colony of Britain, and currently the head of state is still the Queen. Britain has colonized many countries, impressing their culture, and with that their sports, upon the natives. This has happened in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia with rugby union, and cricket. It has happened in India and Sri Lanka with cricket.

AFL has had similar chances with smaller countries like Papua New Guinea, Fiji, and Nauru, but the population of these countries means they cannot compete with Australia.

Reason 4: Australia is not an economic hub
While Australia is a first world country, it does not have the money like the United States and England to splash around. This along with the population of the country means that there is not a large amount of money flowing into AFL, which then means that the AFL is not able to spend a lot of money growing the game overseas.

Reason 5: Australia is physically isolated from the rest of the world
“Girt by sea” is a part of Australia’s national anthem. The statement above is very true if the centre of the world is Europe or America. Europe and America are often seen as the centre of the world, and Australia is viewed as the “land Down Under.”

While Australia may be surrounded by sea, planes can still travel easily to countries like New Zealand, Indonesia, and Vietnam. Football should concentrate its growth on Asia, an area which largely does not yet have an entrenched AFL code.

This reason is the reason for the poor growth of AFL in the past, but in the modern day should not be large obstacle.

However, it still is a small obstacle. People are not able to travel from Germany or the USA for a day trip, and watch a game of football. They are able to travel from Hanoi to Brisbane for a day trip.

Reason 6: World War I
Prior to the Great War, AFL was played in many countries such as South Africa, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. BWorld War I came along and took most of the Australian expats and eradicated the game in those areas.

If World War I had not occurred, the sport would no doubt be played in respectable numbers in all of these countries.

Reason 7: Perceived violent nature of the sport
Aussie rules is often known as No Rules Football, overseas. With only one umpire, and a field full of well built and strong men, the state leagues often had a problem with behind the play incidents. This combined with the strong physical nature of the game combined to create a sport that became violent as teams became more aware of tactics.

The introduction of many new rules by the AFL, including more field umpires and video technology, has meant that the game has lost a lot of the violent nature. However, many people have not seen a game of AFL since the introduction of the new rules, and they spread the word that the game is violent.

Reason 8: Football is not popular in Sydney
Sydney is often the incorrect answer to the trivia question, “What is the Capital of Australia?.” This is because when internationals think of Australia, they automatically associate it with Sydney.

AFL is not the most popular sport in Sydney.

Because of this, people coming to Australia often do not hear about AFL. The AFL is changing this scenario through the growth of AFL in Sydney, which could soon yield a second team.

Reason 9: Poor decisions
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for AFL. Because of a continual association with the Victoria, and the fact that there are 10 Victorian AFL teams, the AFL is continually criticized by Victorians for trying to grow the game outside of Victoria.

It would have been much better for AFL if the SANFL, WAFL and VFL, and possibly the TFL and NTFL had each put teams towards a National Football League. This would have prevented Victorians holding the game back.

Reason 10: Community minded
AFL, throughout its 150 year history, has been mostly community focused. Because of this, the people in control of the game have not really focused on growing the game outside its traditional areas. It was only with the persuasion of Allen Aylett that the game was grown into the traditional rugby league areas of NSW and QLD.

In recent years it has been the fans, and expats, pushing the AFL to provide funding to grow the game overseas. The AFL has been pushing the growth of the game in NSW and QLD, and also is heavily involved in the community. The AFL helps football to be the leader in areas such as Aboriginal rights, disadvantaged people, and health and well-being.

This focus has meant that AFL has improved through its history, and the people who love it, love it more.

AFL has gotten better, and as a result, it will be much easier to spread the game overseas.

However, the game could have sacrificed some of this community mindedness in earlier years and focused on international development. The game would be improved by a much larger range of supporters and followers as a result.

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Boo Cheers

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:07am | Report comment

LUck too – - –

Dally Messenger for example – - if he did not exist, would RL not exist, or at least not in the form of today in Sydney.

Had Dally Messenger remained in South Melbourne with his relatives, would RL have taken off as it did? Had Dally Messenger done as his brothers did, and stick with the ‘Australian’ game – - would Aust Footy have taken off in Sydney. Quite possibly so.

Why else did supposedly huge numbers flock to see him kick goals from over half way………because, there was an appetite for that sort of action – and RL at that time still packaged goal kicking. Messenger played the game in a manner that an Aust Footballer would, and why else was he pushing for a Aust footy and RL merger (Australeague) if he thought that RL was by far the superior game?

- – - – - had Sydney have been ‘won’ over – - then, some of the following wouldn’t have happened :

Aust Footy has a reasonable history in PNG – and was only really over taken through the ’80s as the VFL was broke and focussed on a national league with a diverse focus across to Perth, Sydney and Brisbane but with the power base in Melb. The NRL, with Murdoch on side, established a greater presence in and around QLD and flowing into PNG.

Aust Footy had a pretty good history in NZ – - and WWI had a major impact – - but, so too, that the Victorian ‘influence’ was more limited to the South Island, and the Sydney influence was greater in the North Island. As it turned out, the North Island grew as the more populous and more ‘influential’ of the islands (climate helps that).

So – - just in our local realm, had Sydney been ‘won over’, and had Australian Footy been able to continue it’s ‘Australasian’ trajectory that HAD been established in the late 1800s – - then, who knows.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment

The pompousness and hyperbole in this article is sickening.

Strenuous objections as I read through a second time:

1. Any attempt at masking totally biased subjective opinions in numerical scales is STRICTLY NOT an analysis. That said I do give this article a “faster-higher-stronger index” of nil nil nil.

2. The purported difficulty of learning AFL skills over any other sports skills is presumptuous the extreme. And breathtakingly arrogant. And simply wrong.

3. The article at times uses the term ‘football properly – as shorthand for the game known as association football or soccer – but mostly uses it in a manner which is becoming rapidly culturally antequated – to describe AFL. I note that this is against the convention on this site and the regular editing decisions of the moderators.

4. Many of the specific points are highly debateable, eg:

- Australia may not be a cultural hub at one level, however a good weight of our expats are industry and media leaders who should be able to give a degree of momentum and ‘market weight’ globally to any sport with merit. Its not as if other things that symbolise Australian culture are not out there in the global consciousness

- Australia is absolutely an economic hub, the 12th biggest economy in the world, a G20 member, a major APEC member, almost equal to all the ASEAN nations put together, and a strategically critical provider of resources to all major powers

- People do not commonly travel from Europe or Asia to the USA to watch baseball yet it has globally known teams, cable TV coverage on major global channels, numerous secondary leagues in various continents, and a world-wide brand awareness. In this world of communications, globalisation, live/streaming content, merchandise, etc bleating about geography is admitting to an abject lack of imagination and endeavour.

- I have never heard this point about WW1 before and my instinct is to be enormously sceptical of it. It defies simple logic.

- Violence in sport cannot possibly be an issue in an age where combat sports (UFC, K1 etc) have seen an unprecendented global rise, where NFL is the largest league by attendance in the world, and where broader media/entertainment options contain frequent graphic violence. Also, if anything, with stricter apcation of rules combined with more apparent diving/milking by AFL players the game is choosing to be softer than it used to be and losing this marketing edge.

- AFL IS popular in Sydney. It is popular as one of 3-4 codes in that market, all of which get 15-30 thousand supporters to a decent game. It doesnt have the unnatural myopic monocultural following that it enjoys in its southern stronghold but most here would argue the problem is with its overemphasis in Melbourne not its underemphasis in Sydney.

- All codes have administrators who make good and bad decisions, and all codes have geographic and historical legacies. Weak argument. And an issue that could be argued to be as much a strength for AFL as a weakness. In fact I can’t see a relevant point in this at all.

- AFL is ‘community minded’ because that is all it has, and also because it has momentum in its marketing hype around this issue (not the least of which, because this differentiates it from the ownership models of football and NRL).

- Finally it is impossible for you to argue that AFL has ‘gotten better’. It has no external reference point against which this could possibly be judged. It is one closed insular professional league, and what is more it has a set of socialist levelling devices between seasons (drafts and salary caps most obviously) which are certtainly not aimed at raising the levels of the best, and rather serve to re-level the comp by making sure the best in fact dont get too far ahead of the worst. One has no basis whatsoever to assess whether the game is improving, stable, or eroding down.

Bottom line for me is that AFL is a great niche sport in the Australian landscape and an idiosyncratic part of the Australian culture which I enjoy. None of what I’ve written above is intended to indicate that I am anti-AFL. But what I am absolutely anti is this kind of article and the types of biases, prejudices, blinkered views and puffery that underpins it.

Reason 11: Because hard core AFL fans do not have a realistic perspective on their game, and live predominantly in environments where they are unlikely to gain that anytime soon.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:34am | Report comment

Millster – I’m most disappointed with you.

Get you hand off it.

That’s childish in the extreme.

This article is on the AFL thread.

WHere FOOTBALL is FOOTBALL. DOn’t like it???? Go crying back to your socca thread.

Talk about inflammatory crap dressed in sheeps clothing………..

we all know that ‘Association Football’ is fine to be called football where it is the A. dominant code or B. only code. In the Olympics it is the ONLY ‘football’ competition, so, that’s fine. But calling it Soccer IS NOT WRONG. And on an AFL thread with references to many different football codes – - there’s certainly nothing wrong with using the CORRECT term “Association Football” or the unambiguous reference of ’soccer’.

The website is in English language – - and freely available – - and by far and away, in the English speaking world, soccer is a more common usage than ‘football’ when referring to Association Football. i.e. USA, Canada, NZ, Australia outside of Sydney, Ireland. compared to England, and maybe Scotland and Wales if you call them English speaking!!!! I know that’s a stretch;-)

—–

btw – violence aspect of AFL WAS a major marketing element (for god knows what reason) back in the 80s. Many in the US via ESPN developed an impression of the game very much based on that. A reasonably inaccurate impression. ANd certainly much less accurate than the modern reality – - however, if you browse through the websites of many of the US Aust football clubs – you’ll note that many have explicit efforts at effectively watering down that outdate ‘image’.

Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment

Millster,

The article was an attempt at looking at the impact different factors have had, and continue to have on the growth of football internationally. Not all of these reasons have had equal impact.
You make think there are other reasons, as in number 11. I think number 11 could be true, as the people who play the sport often aren’t the best ones to market it in new areas. It is one of the reasons that the AFL has now hired a Sydney based marketing group to market football in Sydney.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:47am | Report comment

Forgetmenot

I hope that Sydney based marketing group isn’t the same one that stuck a Canberra Raiders player celebration picture on Penrith Panthers marketing material!!! They might suffer Sydney football confusion syndrome (SFCS), and stick Clint Bolton instead of Craig Bolton’s face up on a billboard…..

Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment

Michael C

I was just hoping it wasnt a Melbourne agency with a Sydney office. But yes that SFCS really does need to be diagnosed soon. Perhaps a topic called “The Rest of Australia” in Sydney high schools.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:00am | Report comment

MC – as evidenced by the strength of my opening line, I wasn’t trying to dress anything in sheeps clothing.

Further, the original article was inflamatory to the point of ridiculousness and my response was simply following suit.

On the use of the term football, while its not an issue that I’d die in a ditch over (mainly because I can see very rapid evolution in common parlance in the direction I want, so don’t need to mount some linguistic insurgency), I thoroughly disagree. On a national site, rather than a Melbourne site, most people would assume the word football to mean “soccer”. And more pointedly, again, that is the convention adopted on this particular site and there is frequent evidence of moderator editing consistent with this convention. To not follow it is therefore to make some dogmatic point, and that, I would argue, is what is childish.

On violence, without a strong physical aspect, the AFL is in no-mans-land. Both as a somewhat-fan and as an experienced business person I cannot help but think that it is a grave mistake for the game to try and dey this side of it. I certainly preferred the AFL of the 80’s and early 90’s to the limp-wristed and over-policed stuff we see today (who can forget Ablett clothes-lining Don Pyke in the 92 GF about a second after the first siren went, and some of the biff the year before between Brereton and Jackovich)

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:16am | Report comment

On a positive note MC I am somewhat chuffed that the only thing you seem to disagree with in my long and strong response is the semantic (and to me not top priority) issue of the use of the word ‘football’.

True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment

re: per WW1 – I can talk with some authority on South Africa and what happened there, strictly speaking it was not WW1 which saw the end of Australian Football in South Africa, but the events preceding it.

There were plenty of Australian gold miners who flocked to South Africa in the 1890s, following the discovery of gold at eGoli (or Johannesburg), and many of these would have been young men from Victorian goldfields, and hence there was an AFL presence there, which increased in the Boer War, as Australia sent over 10,000 men to fight there. However the Boer War ultimately proved to be the undoing of Australian Football in South Africa.

Prior to the Boer War, the Afrikaaners had no involvement in South African rugby at all, they were cattle farmers who wanted to get away from Imperial Britain, in fact it was far more popular amongst the black and coloured communities. In concentration camps, the Boer prisoners were introduced to rugby by English, NZ and Australian troops – the Afrikaaners saw a game which they could beat the English at (sort of similar to the reason why the Irish took up rugby) – in 1906, the first Springboks toured Europe with some success, and that was the clincher that really made the Afrikaaner take the game of rugby to heart.

Also I thought you worked for the Fed Govt (Dept of Defence maybe), yet you advise here that you’re an experienced businessman?

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment

Millster -

I have illustrated before that :

West Australia -Thewest.com.au in WA uses : Australian Rules, Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union

TheAustralian.news.com.au uses : AFL, Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union

South Aust – AdelaideNow (news.com.au\Adelaidenow) uses : AFL, basketball, soccer, cricket

Tasmania – themercury.com.au in Tassie users : AFL and doesn’t list soccer or football, ironically, the little ‘foxsports lives scores and stats central’ has soccer scores next to a ‘football’ label, but for ‘more’ lists ’soccer’ rather than ‘football’.

Sydney – news.com.au/DailyTelegraph uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby, Soccer

Sydney – SMH.com.au uses : AFL, Football, NRL, Union

Brissie – news.com.au/CourierMail uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby Union, Soccer

Canberra – canberratimes.com.au uses : AFL, soccer, Rugby League

GOld Coast – Goldcoast.com.au uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby, Soccer

Melb – TheAge.com.au uses : AFL, soccer, NRL, Union

Melb – news.com.au/heraldsun uses : AFL, soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union

Albury/Wodonga – bordermail.com.au uses : AFL, soccer

ninemsn.com.au uses : AFL, football, rugby league, union

I find it hard to sustain your comment :
On a national site, rather than a Melbourne site, most people would assume the word football to mean “soccer”.

of the above sample, only 2 use ‘football’………..that suggests that outside of the SMH and a specific sydney agenda reflected in the SYdney driven ninemsn.com.au as well – - that you’re actually self defeating………….for a national site, the use of ’soccer’ is actually MOST appropriate.

btw – editorial input thus far HAS been somewhat disappointing, and I too noticed that they had either missed the boat on this article (much to you apparent disappointing ………….are you writing a complaint??), or, are relaxing their stance on sports specific threads.

————-

look, I don’t mind a sports interview talking to a Rugby player who states “I’m really enjoying my football at the moment”. What, do you want the interview to correct him “THat’d be ‘rugby’, mate, not ‘football’”????

That my dear sir is childish.

SO, keep this arcane crusade to the ’soccer’ (wrongly titled ‘football’) tab.

If theRoar wishes, they can continue on the path that they have trod a little – - and if they edit ‘football’ on the AFL thread everytime to ‘AFL’, they’ll very quickly end up being nationally boycotted by anyone with an AFL interest……(although, they haven’t proven overly popular thus far at any rate!!!).

Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment

Funny you should say that Michael C. My whole article has been edited by The Roar editors. Every single instance where you see football referred to as AFL has been editied.
Eg
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for AFL.

edited from
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for football.

John Ryan said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment

Why should Millster only comment on Football threads, you and your mates seem to think you have the god given right to comment, denigrate every one else,so if that,s what you want stick to AFL alone and the rest wont bother with you,though why they do I don,t know

Ronnie from Lonnie said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment

So Forgetmenot, what would be the global ranking by popularity, strength of supporter numbers, market size be? Probably::

1. Football/Soccer
2. Rugby Union
3. American football (solely on the strength of a US population of 300m)
4. Rugby League
5. Australian
6. Gaelic
————-
7. Canadian football? (I’ve heard this actually exists!)

Isolation has probably protected Oz football just has much as it has prevented it’s growth.
Also, Australia didn’t have an empire whereas Britain (England) did. Footballs’ simple rules, style of play and less demanding physical requirements probably explain why football prospered over sports like rugby and cricket. Quite interesting how many football clubs in Sth. America and Europe started out as Football and Cricket Clubs.

An interesting footnote: on ABC Radio Grandstand last year an academic who has researched the history of football in Oz revealed Australian football was actually growing strongly in NSW … that is until local councils (presumably under pressure) implemented a 30-year limitation on the size of football grounds in NSW so as to protect Rugby and limit the growth of Australian football. Growth was stymied. Reminds me a bit of HAL’s exclusion from FTA TV.

This would’ve been about the 1880’s. I don’t remember all the facts and have researched this matter no further. I do remember it said there were invitational games played between NSW rugby and Vic. Aust. football teams in both states. It seems Aust. football went down well with the New South Welshmen.

For mine, these are some of the dampners to Australian football’s global growth (mostly economic):
*Greater physicality (AFL mid-season injury lists look like WW1 casualty roll calls – meaning well-paid players are out of action)
*Longer playing lists mean larger wage bills
*Predominance of other football codes with more established market positions
*Australia’s relative geographic isolation to larger markets
*Only one top-tier league that can be taken to market with a running time of 6 months only. So, even though kiddies are being introduced to the sport, the heroes they can look up to live 1000’s of kms away at the bottom of the world, playing for only 6 months, and playing for clubs with very little geographic relevance.

Clutch Cable said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment

“Poor” is a bit light don’t you think? 150 years and it’s yet to expand in a meaningful way in a single country other than Australia.

Even within Australia it’s going to have to pay through the nose to get a second team up and running in Australia’s biggest city.

I wouldn’t call that poor, I’d call it a complete and abject failure.

Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment

You ought to check out this wikipedia article on football crowds in Australia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Australian_football_code_crowds

to see how that abject failure is doing in Australia.

Are you Australian?

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment

MC – As I said, fell free to continue your linguistic resistance movement. I’m not too fussed.

TT – interesting history re AFL in South Africa. Though I have mixed feelings about how “in South Africa” you can call that. For example I imagine a number of AFL balls are being kicked around between the diggers in Afghanistan and Iraq currently, and also a few in the parks of Dubai and Abu Dhabi with Aussie civilian expats. But that does not equate to AFL having any meaningful presence in the Middle-East.

TT again – if you want to write me an email I can cover off my career history But in short it started in the private sector, then saw me in Fed Govt for a long period, and is now back in a senior strategic role on the private side. You’re in the right ballpark vis-a-vis portfolio area too.

Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment

Pip

Are you saying its unAustralian not to support AFL? If thats the case then about 2/3s of the population are unAustralian?

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment

pass for now.

Redb

Clutch Cable said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment

“Are you Australian?”

Yep, and I live in an Australian city with no AFL team and more registered football players than AFL, Union and League combined.

I’ve no doubt that AFL does remarkably well in Australia, but this article isn’t about AFL in Australia, it’s about AFL internationally and the fact that it’s the ‘highest, strongest and fastest’ sport known to man apparently.

Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment

Dave

We can get stuck into Skyhooks for not making it big overseas, or we can say, what a great Australian band – singing about quintessentially Australian themes – and be more than happy about that.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment

Dave,

What I think Pip is alluding to is some, I stress some, migrants to this country tend to put down anything Australian, AFL fits with that category.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment

Redb -

and Holdens…………….

……..hang on, how many of them are still made in Australia……….

….but, y’know, since people overseas invented ‘cars’, apparently, ONLY imported ‘cars’ can be called ‘cars’, and should we endeavour to refer to a locally produced Holden as a ‘car’, theRoar editors are likely to edit it back to ‘Holden’……………….crickey, it’s like working at the ABC!!!

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment

I mostly agree with RFL’s summary.

I think in the last 2 years (barely that), we are starting to see the AFL put in a more concerted effort to grow the game internationally. It will take time, but it’s great to see the game being played anywhere else in the world, we don’t have to get into a pissing match with other football code fans here.

Our game is ours, there’s is someones elses if they are in Australia.

Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment

I can’t really criticise migrants – being the son of migrants!

But as Dave points out – a large swathe of the Australian population has a deep seated hatred of Australian Football – and I wouldn’t have thought that it’s because they are migrants.

I think it’s a very complicated sociological phenomenon: a significant minority of Australians hating their very own game.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment

Pip,

I stressed ’some’ migrants, trying not to generalise. Besides I know and and see plenty of migrants who love their AFL footy. You see quite a few Hawthorn scarves around new folk to Melbourne. If they like the game they will pick a winner first, that’s why we’ve got to get the Bullies and Dons back up to the top.

cheers
Redb

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:53am | Report comment

If you ask why some people hate AFL

Here’s one reason

It’s because people advertise the game to be the Australian game and that’s it’s unAustralian to not like AFL. That somehow not liking the game is considered unpatriotic and something really strange and deviant.

That Game that made Australia ad. Some people find it clever and funny (myself included). Other people found it offensive that a sport can take ownership to the concept of being Australian.

I always considered that the divide of people who hate AFL is the similar divide between mainstream people and alternative people. People who resent pressure of conforming to society will tend to not like AFL.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment

dasilva,

With respect this phenomen was happening well before Sept 2008 when that Ad was run and also it is a fact that it is the Australian game.

It’s been known as Australian Rules or Australian football for a very very long time. Why should there be a cringe factor unless it’s felt by those who dislike the game. Who has the problem exactly?

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:07pm | Report comment

Pippinu -

people from a certain region became very divisive in their sports – - i.e the rugby schism and allied issues pertaining to RU and RL during times of war – - seems to have created a culture of ‘hatred’ over the journey.

A culture of ambivolence is one thing, hatred is quite another.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:12pm | Report comment

Please find me the advertisement where it says it is unAustralian not to like AFL. The psychology of this is intruiging.

Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment

Redb Pip das

l enjoy AFL, having played it and been a club member for 5-6 years. l now enjoy another sport more, l dont hate football but l do agree with Das when he talks about some AFL people claim you are unAustralian if you dont like AFL?? That is more a turn off than any other aspect. AFL didnt make Australia but it is an integral part of society in the Southern states.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment

reasons for more ‘modern’ failure of Aust footy overseas -

A. nobody was actually TRYING. i.e. most international footy clubs were entirely expats and weren’t worried about ‘growing the game’, weren’t focussed upon attracting locals. Let alone attempting to develop juniors or run auskick style programs.

B. the VFL/AFL was NOT focussed on international growth. Only token gestures of playing the odd ‘exhibition’ game since the mid ’80s. But, a concerted effort would have played regular games in Tokyo, or in Canada, or the US, but, they’ve flitted around with clearly no strategy in mind. And let PNG wither in the meantime.

C. inability to provide support/networking. THe pre-internet age really was an impossible ask for the game to grow on the other side of the world. That’s changing.

D. pre TV coverage – - prior to ESPN, no one overseas would have known a single thing about the game (without a direct link). Only once ESPN started carrying the game, did US folk start noticing it. Alas, in the main, no clubs existed to join, the internet made it impossible to find existing ones.

E. no intended promotion, no pathway

———–

now, we have increasing coverage (esp via Setanta, Mhz, and via the internet), we have increasing numbers of clubs both initiated primarily by expats and those primarily by locals, we have juniors, we have games played with zero expats players, coaching, officiating. We have internet networking, we have support offered globally in an instant. We have national leagues, continental associations, we have international competitions in mens,womens and juniors. We have international rookies, and have talent pathways opening up at very least for kids from PNG as the trail blazers, hopefully ahead of Sth Af and NZ at very least.

We just don’t have a whole lot of ovals.

Minor point.

So – - in all respects – there’s no REAL way other than via much luck that the game could grow and sustain previously. Now adays, a little less luck is required.

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment

I only used the ad as an example. It’s the attitude that’s its an Australian game that some people don’t like (whose those people, generally people who don’t like AFL, fans of other sports eg Football etc). Generally a response that people make is this. I’m Australian, I don’t like AFL, does that make me less Australian. I guess bit similar to Clutch Cable response.

About migrants – I don’t believe migrants put down what is “Australian”. It’s just that the migrants believe that they can be Australian without following the stereotypes of what it is to be Australian (eg, going to watch AFL, Cricket etc). Migrants are Australian in a multicultural and diverse sense but not in a monocultural set values and interest. Perhaps a minority of the migrants ended up hating and resenting the “traditional or stereotypical aussie culture’ but i would think the main thing is that migrant choose to be different and that being Australian is to accept difference to the norm.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:30pm | Report comment

When I talk about ’some’ migrants not liking the Australian game I beleive it comes down to a cultural level, footy is not part of their culture and is rejected. Some migrants (I know Brits who have been here for 40 years) dislike the game becuase it is Australian, they sometimes are people who support anyone else who is playing Australia in cricket for example or other interntational sports and actively like to see Australia lose.

There is a cultural factor that pervades sport.

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment

RedB

There is no advertisement that say it is unaustralian to not like AFL. However to not like AFL is to be different. Being different to the norm in any factor of life can lead to annoying social problems. It doesn’t have to be AFL, pick people who don’t like mainstream music or mainstream TV. They will always be a fraction of those people who ended up hating or resenting what is considered to be normal.

True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:44pm | Report comment

Cheers Millster, sounds a bit similar to your truly, not same portfolio of course.

Das, I can throw up an example which is sort of inline with what Redb is saying, I went to school with plenty of young men of Yugoslav extraction, with the correct physiques to play rugby, but their parents pretty much said futbol is all you can play after school I remember talking to a few of them, and they said their biggest regret wasnt giving rugby or AFL a crack, if only for one season.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment

this ‘attitude’ – -

starting to sound like a “it’s the vibe” type argument.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment

das,

…..speaking of music, if you liked Flock of Seagulls your secret is safe with me.

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment

Truh Tah

Migrants sometimes talk about accepting difference and multiculturalism but sometimes have trouble of accepting difference within their own culture, community or society. I know that from personal experience. I don’t believe it’s the hatred of Australian culture but more like an ultra protectiveness of their own culture which I equally resent as well.

Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment

Forgetmenot,
do you have anything against the name “Marn Grook” ? I would embrace it a lot more if you call it by the indigenous name.. That surly would be more fitting if you wish to play it internationally as Football is the round ball game …

Pippi,
I would have thought we were all Australians.. Are you an Australian ….. ?

Millster,
you’re on the money as per usual and I love reading your posts.. I can’t add to what you write it’s always near perfect … And to say this is an arrogant article not worth contributing to … A delusionary one at that….

TT,
are you suggesting that the gold miners from Australia took a Sherrin under their arm pits wherever they went .. I would think that the gold miners were more intent to dig for gold then to waste precious time kicking a stuffed possum around the gold fields.. get real…

Das,
you are right the AFL is not the Australian national game .. end of story… Born in Victoria…

Marn Gook is the indigenous name and that is what it should be called on the tab not AFL

MC,
the revolution has begun and we intend to reclaim our rightful name Football back .. By all means call your game what ever you wish; but in your heart you know your game is “Melbourne Rules”… (Victorian) I like Victorian Marn Grook (Grooky)
An emoticon especially for you….

~~~~~~~
KB

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment

bare with me on this one:

The reality is – - the ability to even secure and spread Aust Footy within Australia was limited for a long time by certain phenomena -

the massive loss of young men in WW1 and WW11 meant that ‘natural’ population growth was limited, much of the population growth was therefore migration……..of people from countries that especially by WWII had developed a domestic football culture (whether, soccer, or rugby or other variants).

That in the strongest states, the game has withstood this, absorbed it and flourished is interesting – - RL likewise. Probably two very important ‘assimilation’ tools.

Now – - less so, especially in the RL states where soccer is weaving it’s web. How strong an assimilation tool is it just yet? Given that the ethnic blighted NSL is just 5 yeas past………..one would say still not a very mature assimilation tool.

and for years – the attitude associated with soccer even amongst soccer folk is to put down the local standard and cast their eyes abroad.

Still now – Michael Lynch (a pommie writing for Fairfax) writes Of course the standard could — and will — improve as the game becomes more professional, as players play more games, as the best youngsters come through the national youth league and we (hopefully) get new coaches from other parts of the world to inject fresh ideas and styles.

The ‘un-Australian’ ‘vibe’ that often permeates thru the soccer fraternity is that overseas is better.

That’s not necessarily so.

And, the thing that has annoyed Aust footy advocates is that it’s one thing for soccer folk to put down the standard of their own game relative to ‘back home’……….and fair enough in part because soccer was never ‘number 1′ in Aust whilst it was in their homeland- – - but to then knock our local product as being deficient as well………….now that’s like suggesting that Skyhooks and Cold Chisel and the Mentals were no good because they never performed on the ‘world stage’ (Euro Vision). Well, quite obviously, we can all accept that the Australian rock scene was far superior to the vast number of countries around the world – - and we’ve even leant some bi-linguals to other countries as well.

(something about the isolation in Australia resulting in a ‘have a go’ attitude, and the opportunities to find a stage at a pub and do a gig – - – so, normal metric comparision of populaiton size didn’t really come into it at all.)

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment

KB -

whose rightful name?

True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:07pm | Report comment

KB,

from what I understand, marngrook was from a language spoken in Victoria.

In the Tiwi Islands, the game would not be called marngrook, the Tiwi people speak a language differant to that spoken in Victoria, differant to that spoken in central Australia, etc, in fact there were over a hundred languages spoken by the indigeonous Australians at the time of European settlement.

Towser said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment

If you mean by assimilation what I once saw at Disneyland you can shove it where the sun dont shine.

The scene is set,its twilight time in front of the Enchanted castle. A laser show begins. Its a Peter Pan theme & suddenly Tinkerbell appears above the Enchanted castle , red white & blue sparks surround her. The Star -Spangled Banner starts up.
Now in front of me a family of Asian background ,who had been chattering away in what I took to be Vietnamese, get a glazed look in their eye & their right hands are placed over their hearts. Whats more their singing the SSB & looking tenderly to the sky & the darting figure of the fairy from never never land Tinkerbell.
Gimme a break.
Assimilation shove it.

Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment

“(hopefully) get new coaches from other parts of the world to inject fresh ideas and styles.
The ‘un-Australian’ ‘vibe’ that often permeates thru the soccer fraternity is that overseas is better.”

But doesnt the same happen in AFL. Leigh Matthews is not a Queenslander yet he was hired by BB…where is the difference? Ron Barassi and Paul Roos, are they from Sydenee? Then same thing again.

When developing and trying to improve a sport/team you go to the masters, those that have the expertise at the highest possible level…if that means they are not of the preferred nationality so be it. They will train a local who will hopefully take over or train more locals. Cannot see a problem there.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment

Dave –

oh my god, you’re harking back to pre-federation era are you? Last time I look you didn’t need a passport to cross into QLD let alone change of currency. (just joking, that’s the alternate tact to your L.Matthews point).

Look – I’m not saying overseas coaches aren’t required or useful – - the reality though is just because soccer in Australia is 2nd rate – - doesn’t mean that all things are…………and it’s that latter point that seems to have so often come from some.

Towser -

I certainly don’t ever mean anything like an American model!!!

TT -

and Gangajang………….with their song “Hundreds of languages”,………….I bought the cd single………….perhaps me and 37 others.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment

I’ve returned from a lunch on the first year of Rudd foreign policy, and am surprised that anyone found an hour of things to say on that subject.

So in a sense I’m glad to be back to this debate even though it started with an article that I despise and (obvioulsy) totally reject.

On the interesting issue of hating ‘things Australian’…. my 2 cents worth being half Aussie and half French… I hope I put this right as it could be sensitive… here goes…

There is the image of Australia of which we can be proud – the educated, confident, perhaps a touch anti-authoritarian, creative Australia that defies its geography and that weaves its own part in the world, including cultural symbols despite our young age and essentially ‘imported’ anglo-saxon tradition.

Then there is the “Ocker” Australia made up of entrail-filled meat pies, inch-think vegemite, also inch-thick zinc cream, drunkenness in public throughout the world, xenophobic views towards other cultures, and an attitude that there is no heaven like home (which is frankly bizarre to the other 5.9 billion people on the planet when home is largely an uninhabitable desert island full of poisonous things stuck on the arse end of the world).

To some like me AFL is a cultural symbol of Australia that fits into the former, and can be a positive thing. To some it fits into the latter (and calls, such as the one in the original post, that football has “everything going for it” contributes to the broader view of the myopic and deluded ocker red-neck). And added to that is always the underlying feeling, with some justification, that Australia has chosen to ‘wimp out’ of participation in the global sports and to invent its own funny little game in order to not have to match it with the big boys. I don’t agree, but nevertheless its not hard to see how such a view can be taken. Finally, there is the demographics. “Footy” is a white middle class boy’s game, with the one significant (and praise-worthy) exception being prominent involvement of aboriginal players. Its getting better but its heart is still not that inclusive.

Bottom line is that I can fully understand that some people do not want to be stereotypical Australians; for being one is not necessarily a good thing in the cold harsh light of day. And insofar as AFL is associated symbolically with that “ocker” grab-bag of pursuits, it suffers some negaitivity in kind. Let me be 100% clear on this – its not that migrants, or anyone, hate Australia. Its that they hate the ugly caricature of Australia.

PS: I agree that “the game that made Australia” ad is not a major cause. But it is seriously cringeworthy, and should have been rejected by AFL and non-AFL types alike.

Newbie said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment

Half French? Thought M’s posts smelled funny.

Go back to lunch.

Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment

Your just reinforcing stereotypes. All socio-economic groups, sexes, races and age groups attend AFL games. Again the Ad is only cringeworthy if the perception already exists in your head that it must be unAustralian to dislike AFL. Personally I thought the Ad pretty amateurish and uninspiring – but that is a creative criticism not becuase it made me feel cringeworthy.

True Australian football fans have pride in our game and its origins, I pity those who don’t have the connection. Certainly, the traditions of AFL clubs are rich and socially cohesive.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment

Finally, there is the demographics. “Footy” is a white middle class boy’s game

take your Sydney hat off there for a minute.

In footy states it’s be multi cultural and across all socia economic groups for a very long time.

btw – I don’t know anyone who goes in for inch thick vegemite………….you only do that when trying to make an American gag but suggesting that that is how it’s done and presenting it to him to eat.

- – - – -

it is possible to be middle ground – -
because, footy is symbolic of :
proactivity – - circa 1850s onwards – not waiting on England – but, doing it for ourselves,

for creativity? well, at least initiative

for independance – - resisted just ‘falling in line’ with other countries (and even states who had chosen to just ‘fall in line’)

remember, footys heart is in Melbourne which for a long time was considered our more cosmipolitan city, more cultured worldly city – the home of theatre, fashion, arts, the home of the tennis open (back to the Kooyong years), the original GPs at Albert Park in the Brabham era……..

It was hardly some two bit local yokel town that was thumbing it’s nose at the world. And so many of the migrants who came her chose NOT to involve themselves with the many ethnic based soccer teams and DID involve themselves with the ’skips’.

btw – I think of my parents seeing a little community of Dutch folk up in East Gippsland and opting NOT to live anywhere near them…………because, they preferred even the ’skips’ to a ‘home away from home ethnic community’.

You’ve tried to paint it B&W. It ain’t.

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment

uncreative, uninspiring and not really presenting the image of Aust Footy we’d prefer,

tongue in cheek and Bill Hunter………..nah…………we’ve moved beyond that.

Personally, I’d've preferred something a little more cosmopolitan,

but, obviously the tongue in cheek aspect was taken a little too literally by some.

Which’d be akin to believing a political satirist was actually stating their true political beliefs rather than displaying an ability to make fun of anyone.

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment

Millster

As much as I don’t like watching AFL. AFL certainly has done well with racial integration. In fact I find that they do a better job attracting the 2nd generation Vietnamese Asian community then Football does. I can see that it’s not going to be too long until you’ll see a professional Australian-Vietnamese AFL player.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:15pm | Report comment

MC – I will concede upon a re-read of my words that yes it is a bit B&W. Though aren’t we all in debating here… the very concept of this site is antithetic to the notion of balanced multi-dimensional views

RedB – other people have other equally or more worth connections and don’t need your pity. That was a bizarre line to write.

True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment

dasilva

there has been an Australian-Asian guy playing in the AFL – Peter Bell, he was adopted from Korea, his biological parents were a US servicemen and a Korean woman, I dont know what its like now, but in Korea, there used to be a real stigma about mixed race children. I think he used to play for the Dockers.

And Millster, I dont think too many Collingwood supporters would take it kindy if you referred to them as middle class…Australian Football is not my sport of choice, but it is a hell of a lot more inclusive than my game, and it engages with its community far better than any other sport here.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment

TT – Its hard to get a cultural identity for AFL in Victoria, SA and WA due to it being such a dominant mono-culture there. One can only draw conclusions as to what its natural demographic is in those states where it does not enjoy monopoly saturation and where sports consumers can segment themselves through their choices in those markets.

Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment

TT,
Yes, however, it was the modern indigenous folk who have named the game Marn Grook and you or I should not deny them their right of a general consensus to what the name should be.. Leave it to the indigenous folk to decide.. I have no reason to object to their decision of their chosen name Marn Grook .. You will find that they are all in full agreement with it, as they are with the indigenous flag .. If you need to find out the English definition of the name/words “Marn Grook” you will learn that it means “Man Ball”.. Google Wiki and search Tom Wills and see links then read…

~~~~~~~~
KB

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

True Tah

That’s good to hear.

There’s also a football player Alan Davidson who represent Australia with distinction in the 80’s. He was a half japanese half Australian Servicemen. Reading his story there was a lot of stigma in both Australia and Japan in terms of mixed race children (especially due to post WWII tensions) and that the marriage between his parents has come in lots of opposition from their family from both sides.

Unfortunately there hasn’t been any more Australian-Asian players since representing the Socceroos.

To be honest I think at least with the Vietnamese community here in Adelaide, they are more likely to produce an AFL player then an A-league player.

True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment

former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones was also the product of such a union (Aust. army dad, Japanese mum).

Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment

Flat out presently, unable to contribute.

Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:02pm | Report comment

Note to Roar moderators – and its a thought not only about this article but about many that I’ve read in the past year.

Just as there is a ‘Cheers’ button there should also be a ‘Boo’ button for each posted article.

Currently one can either support someone’s writing or remain silently neutral. I’d like the option of seeing how many people actively disagree, as well as those that actively agree.

Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment

Ronnie from Lonnie,

I would perhaps even place American Football number 2 on that list. And football could arguably be second last ahead of Canadian Football.
Canadian football simply has a few different rules than American Football.

Koala Bear,
In terms of International growth football does need a new name. It should respect the names already used in countries (hint hint). Marn Grook is an option, but may be hard to teach people in different languages, There is actually a whole thread about this over at BigFooty, under the International tab.
Other ideas are; Sherrin, footy, bigfooty, ovalball etc.

In response to everyone else discussing footballs role in Aussie culture. It is seen as a purely Australian thing to do, but the AFL is, as football always has done, trying to attract new arrivals to the game. It is part of the Australian psyche to embrace new arrivals and teach them about Australia, which is perhaps one of the reasons Australians feel so offended when new arrivals keep to themselves. THey feel that immigrants staying in their own communities is a middle finger to the Aussie Culture.

Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment

I agree with the boo button. Perhaps it would feel like a put down to some people though. (Imagine if an article had 10 boos and 2 cheers!!).

dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 6:59pm | Report comment

although I’m no fan of migrants isolating themselves from the rest of society. However the fact is that it’s human nature that you will hang out, become friends with, marry people who you are similar with, Share similar interest and share similar values. They will always be some degree with immigrants hanging out with there “own kind”. As long as they don’t isolate themselves and be open to the different things Australia has to offer then it’s not really a problem.

The migrants will eventually assimilate to Australian society but they’ll do it in there own way (and sometimes in there own time). They will incorporate some mainstream Australian value but will reject others and perhaps Australian society and culture will diversify and change as well

bozo said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment

A game centred on Melbourne and its nearest relative in Ireland. Says it all for me. Move on, there is a big world out there.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:39am | Report comment

I’m confused about your notion of ‘natural demographic’.

And that you seem to believe that there MUST be one.

The natural demographic if you will is a small country town where EVERYBODY is involved in the footy/netball club – - the entire town. Because, unlike the smaller sided games (even soccer and cricket), the footy club requires all hands on deck – - the greatest variance is seniors and reserves, but, in the main the ressies are for the older guys, some young kids up from the thirds, and often the exchange student and the couple of ‘new comers’ from non footballing backgrounds who help make up the numbers and engage with the community.

Is that a ‘natural demographic’ for you??? Because, that’s what I saw in country regions as I grew up.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:47am | Report comment

Funny how you post your boo button request on an AFL thread.

Long live footy and may it grow.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:52am | Report comment

TT –

Peter Bell, started at Freo in their first year, managed a couple of games early. Got cut. Got picked up by North Melbourne, played in 2 premierships for us, was a potential future captain, went back to Freo (and Perth – family etc), captained them. Studied, became a lawyer and now is listed as a CEO of some organisation (but I heard the other day he’s also a stay at home dad?? presently).

Also, Collingwood (then Melbourne) had a guy Danny Seow played probably 30 odd games over about 5 years back in the late ’80s. Played 18 games for 8 goals at Coll in 86 and 87, not sure what he did at Melb after that.

That’s about it for the ‘modern era’.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:45am | Report comment

MC – no its not a natural demographic. Its a monopoly. Further, in the small town context, its one borne more of the desire for social cohesion and participation than of a choice between codes. If the town played football or one of the rugbies, or had a friday night volleyball game in the sand-pit, it would be all hands on deck too.

Redb – as I said I first thought this a while back, not in relation to this thread, and in fact I think it was a Gruffalo post on League that first made me want to actively boo. However, of course, I’d love to be able to boo this one too.

Forgetmenot – what is this “Aussie culture” that the migrants are giving a middle finger to? And even if you could pin it down, is AFL core to that ‘Australian culture’? Is AFL as symbolically Australian as say sumo or kendo is Japanese? I don’t think so.

True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment

Im sure these small towns play futbol as well, who knows some of them might even have rugby teams.

At one stage or another, I guess that these towns chose AFL as their game – its not strictly a southern Australian thing, look at rugby league in the north of England where it is fanatically followed in small towns in an area where futbol is the giant swallowing up all before it, or southwest France, where it is rugby union that garners the passion.

Im sure there are plenty of other examples, but to me what it seems your suggesting is that AFL is not, based on natural demographics, the game of choice for towns in southern Australia…Ihow would you propose to test otherwise?

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:20am | Report comment

TT- no I’m certainly not going that far in my argument and of course I realise the great level of natural support for AFL in many towns.

But I also realise that in relatively socially small and activity-poor environments, people will be motivated to join in pretty much anything. This indeed has been my own experience from time to time when I have spent periods in smaller or more remote places throughout my studies and career.

So I’m not denying a natural affinity for AFL in those places. I’m just saying that its methodologically impossible to determine what the level of support would be, and how it would segment out, in those communities were they in different circumstances. There is certainly interest and participation in AFL in those places. But its natural level may be amplified by some contextual factors.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment

Ah, but, Millster -
the natural demographic originally was cricketers, but, they spread it to the workers and the school kids.

The natural demographic of Rugby Union was the (not so) ‘Public’ schools of England.

Soccer likewise, especially the very much well to do Etonians and Cambridge Uni.

But – -take your European cap off for a minute – - transplant yourself to Melbourne circa 1860. Nudging 100,000 population. A minimum of transport options……….(interesting story recently about the Mornington Footy ’shipwreck’….and that was just on the bay!!).

What you term ‘monopoly’ as if it is forced upon the people was infact a monopoly adopted and evolved BY the people. Therefore, the culture was inclusive from the outset – therefore there was no distinct ‘natural demographic’.

(and, perhaps in taking off your European Cap, you need to take off your Sydney cap as well).

You seem to want to pigeon hole a little too much.

Footy appeals across the board – - however, the marketing into a new/growth market can perhaps be misleading – - as you’ve claimed it to be a ‘middle class white boy’ game…………which is far from the truth (although, these days with the expectations of the community, re behaviour etc, both NRL and AFL are suffering because people seem to expect a higher standard of behaviour from a back-flanker than they do from Lawyers, Politicians or ruddy CEO’s – - – the world has gone mad – - – and this MAY actually force recruitment to err towards middle class………………and that’s blatantly unfair. Sports is supposed to provide opportunities they may not otherwise be financially available.)

re. all hands on deck – - NO. Quite wrong. Basketball is the best example. I played a couple of years of basketball before playing footy. Basketball was nothing compared to footy because in the main the teams were very much temporary social type sides rather than permanent community sides.
Even the community club that is the cricket club, because the 4 teams (as it was down my way, A-D grades) would go off on their merry way playing at different grounds around the district and often against different teams, and the juniors would often have a totally different draw as well and be finished their morning games – - – there was no BRINGING together of the community.

So – -sport alone didn’t do it. There’s nothing like the footy/netball day at the local recreation reserves – alas though, the great benefit of bringing so many people together is on the flip side the great danger that too soon a small town in decline can’t make up the numbers.

That need of numbers means that in a multi code town, a soccer side is easier to ‘field’ than a footy side, let alone 1s and 2s.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:42am | Report comment

Bozo -

the nearest relative to Aust Footy is NOT Gaelic. The similarities are more co-incidental.

Re the family tree, Gaelic is more a 2nd cousin.

Footy is much more closely related to Rugby and Soccer – they have some common heritage back to England. Certainly Sean Fagan still insists the first games of footy in Melb were games of Rugby – -(well, they were in reality a mix of everything, ‘handling’ games and ‘dribbling games’ and the dissent made clear the nead for a common set of rules).

The common set of rules, just as in England, cross referenced the available rules of various ‘public’ schools, such as Eton, Rugby, Harrow, and colleges like Cambridge.

There are 2 rules still in Aust Footy that no longer exist in Association Football but that were in the original rules of the London FA back in 1863. They are the ‘fair catch’ and no x-bar allowing a goal at whatever height to be awarded. As it is though, the Melb rules were penned first…………but, where not a parent to the London rules, both the London Rules and the Melb Rules have effectively multiple ‘parents’…………………..rather like a footballing village to create a footballing ‘child’.

And had the Rugby codes not evolved themselves in a strange way – there might be a great ease of identifying the closer ‘footballing genetic’ relationship. Remember, kicking goals used to be the ‘primary score’ in Rugby (before they started awarding points for a try because they weren’t able to kick enough goals!!!). A ‘fair catch’ was in the RU rules for a long, long time.

Rugby and soccer have, a little like the school of Rugby and school of Eton football codes – - seemed to react against each other…………they seem to seek to accentuate the differences sometimes. Rather like deliberately breeding certain characteristics into or out of a dog or rose.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment

re larger towns…………there’s been no real shortage of choice in Ade, Perth and Melbourne…….our migrants were bringing soccer, and the british heritage of so many could not be denied. There was no stopping people so inclined to attempt to bring these sports to a greater level to schools (especially those that seem MORE to fit with the supposed ‘natural demographic’ of certain sports).

They never did catch on.

We’re the killed off in similar ways to Aust Footy in Sydney circa 1900-1910? Where pure choice didn’t entirely dictate the outcomes?

and where choice wasn’t purely on the better game to play/watch but perhaps the better game to tour England and generate revenue via such.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment

MC – the word “better” is fraught with value judgements and subjectivity….

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

Millster
I have to admit that I’m struggling to follow your argument about demographics.

There appears to be an element of: forgive them Lord, for they know not what they are doing.

Let’s take a central Victorian town like Shepparton, that boasts at least two top football clubs in that area’s country league. Both clubs, as it happens, have netball teams, such that one whole day of the weekend is dedicated to playing football and netball and/or watching, supporting, assisting the same, and hundreds of families are basically involved across the town and surrounding disctricts.

I know for a fact that Shepparton has a high number of Italian migrants, and more recently others from diverse places. I’m confident that soccer has been played there for decades – but I can promise you that the local soccer matches will not have the same level of community support and involvement as the local footy/netball games, and, that stacks of Italian families have chosen to get behind the footy clubs rather than the soccer clubs for whatever reason. As far back as the early 70s I knew stacks of Italian farming families who were involved in the local footy clubs one way or the other.

Who can say what the reason is? But I don’t think it was a monopoly situation.

You have an economics background – you understand consumer sovereignty – isn’t it just a simple matter of offering the product and the market deciding? In Australia, we have a diversity of product offerings, more than any other place on Earth except for maybe the US – yet people keep coming up with this Communist argument that there should only be one product offering and zero choice.’

You – of all people!!

True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:50am | Report comment

Millster is anything but a socialist, if his views on salary caps are anything to go by…funnily he is half-French, a nation which if anything has adopted socialistic policies to keep French farmers in business.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment

I have to mention this as it happened this morning, i was waiting for my dad at the bank, across the road was a group of childeren on a school outing with “teachers”. As they crossed the road (8 year olds) i noticed that their were 4 sudanise kids in the pack, one near the front, a teacher holding ones hand and another 2 migling with others towards the back. Now this is where the intergration starts. Its generational and happens with the children. Hence why i keep saying we need all codes at schools, we need to be able to give the kiddies choice and get rid off the preduious and discrimanation. If we cant acheive this then in 50 years we will still be having these arguments. These kids are well drilled by the community up here where we live. They dont want to see unbehaved or uneducated sudanise kids so are making a massive effort to educate them at the highest level straight off. I have noticed this as well. Hopefully one day they might enjoy hearing “men at work”.

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:37am | Report comment

tt
I know that! I’m trying to hit a raw nerve!!

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:49am | Report comment

Pippinu / Millster -

soccer exists in vastly more countries in which it’s a monopoly……at all levels.

And hasn’t suffered from non-conforming migration that way that Aust Footy has in Australia – a land largely populated by European immigrants.

The monopoly/choice argument just really sounds a bit lame – Millster – I know you want to believe it, but, gee…………a country like Denmark – - it’s been soccer and handball……………soccer and handball……….soccer and handball and yachting……………and……….gee, suddenly, footy comes along and a batch of people and kids who get exposed to it really quite like it………………….I wonder, if, as per the NSW scholarship thread………………that, there might – in EVERY football market – be that niche for Aust Footy for those people for whom – when playing – that greater sense of ‘freedom’ becomes their defining factor (granted, one persons ‘greater freedom’ is another persons perception of ‘lack of structure’ verging on ‘chaos and anarchy’ – - so, I don’t suggest it fits for all).

Now – using Millsters favourite sporting x-ref to real world politics – perhaps the ’structure’ and ‘disciplines’ of Rugby for example, esp Union – - is seen as being somewhat totalitarian in a communist manner, rugby L and soccer are more socialist, and footy is perhaps more like a ‘free market’ game on the field………….such that, very few capitalist folk seek to move themselves to a communist state – - a social democratic perhaps, but far less likely a communist state as a voluntary movement.

Perhaps this might play a part? Why a Shepparton hasn’t ‘fallen’ to the soccer revolution.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment

oikee -

re the ‘integration’ at schools -

often it’s the non-core sports that achieve this the best – - because, for example, in an English or Scottish school, all the kids already play outside of school either soccer or rugby, and there are established ’social’ hierarchies, and talent hierarchies.

But – introduce them to Aust footy for example (as has happened pretty successfully in a number of schools) and it creates a more of a level playing field, and allows a creation of a ‘new’ hierarchy mostly internalised within the school rather than importing the external and often socio-demographic and even ethnicised hierarchies from outside of the school (yard and hours).

The thing about Aust Footy is that (for now) – it’s new to probably 99.95% of the kids even if they are African refugees/immigrants or Asian or from the US or continental Europe.

Whereas, using soccer for example in Victoria wouldn’t be so effective, as, it’s not new to everyone. You’d probably opt for a lacrosse or something like that.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment

Just on the aussie culture thing, talking about men at work, we use to be like these guys not having a care in the world, running around sand dunes and laying back like loafers, this was how the English saw us and its long past gone. Now they look at us like load mouth aussies who want to have a picture taken on a statue. Theres not many fair dinkum aussies left because you are all chasing the dollar.
What was a story i once read? A fisherman living in a waterfront village , along came a rich bussiness man and told him he was sitting on a fortune. He told the guy,” what you should do is sell your property, and when you make a fortune you can then sit back and buy a boat and a nice house, also you can put your feet up and do some fishing and just relax when you retire”. The fisherman who owned the house on the village front thought about it and replied, ” i do have a nice house and have got a boat, and i am fishing.” ?
I thought about this story and it reminds me of the aussie culture these days, we all want bigger and shinier things. We all want to live on the water, if it became trendy to live in the country we would all want that. Unfortunately we have lost what being aussie is all about, well most of us.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment

MC – “soccer” and handball and yachting to me sounds like a 3-way oligopoly, not a monopoly…. In France its football and rugby and tennis….. Plus remember that Australians have a much larger overall sports consumption relative to other pursuits that pretty much every other country than the USA, so it would actually be more accurate for me to say “in France its football and rugby and tennis and art galleries and fashion shows and ballet and jazz gigs and avant-garde cinema… etc

Don’t be under the impression that anywhere in the world football/soccer enjoys the kind of monopolistic saturation that AFL does in Melbourne. AFL in Melbourne is like the commies in Cuba. Yes small and globally unimportant territiory. But an overwhelming and abnormal dominance of it nontheless. Going back some way in this thread, I suspect this abnormal over-positioning of AFL in its home market is why some Australians and others alike react negatively to it. If I were not desensitised to it, I can see why I might find it annoying that its impossible to fly into Tullamarine on a Monday morning and not have to talk footy with the cabbie or hear about it on the radio all the way into the city…

Pip – consumer sovereignty is over-rated Most consumers (like voters I might add) are led by the nose and by the heart or purse strings rather than making free and reasoned choices after a careful balancing of factors.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment

Just thought i would mention about the kids, we have all the codes here so if they were good at one apposed to the other then they have choice to do so, along with a helping hand in that direction M.C. We should never just send them all to lets say soccer or league, this would be a waste.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:22pm | Report comment

Oikee – spot on in your first para. Not all Aussies, but a certain segment of Aussies are “the new Americans” in terms of their crass, insensitive, selfish, loud behaviour overseas. And for those people who form a view of our country based on those aspects it is not surprising that they would be cautious to adopt some of the cultural symbols of the “ocker”. What you raise is very close to the point that I had in mind when writing earlier on.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:26pm | Report comment

Now a question borne of genuine ignorance – my views and expertise are on business / administrative / policy matters and not so much on on-field things.

To what extent to the various codes cross-train in their development of kids? Do AFL teams play modified touch or similar for fitness and ball handling? Do League or Union guys play kick-to kick or some fast, simple futsal type game? (I know Sydney FC have incorporated both touch footy and boxing in their training).

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment

Well i read the other day the league players were playing soccer on the beach. And they have there cricket match to relax before origin . There are guys that train in melbourne and sydney with the AFL teams. The walls are falling, we just need to knock them down faster. Also i think some or lots of players go to watch other codes, this helps.

True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:33pm | Report comment

Millster – wasnt that the whole imagine perpetuated by Barry Crocker in the Adventures of Barry Mckenzie? Its hardly new.

Agree that plenty of loutish Aussie oafs dont do our image any good overseas, but they are no means alone, English lager lads arent angels either.

Would argue that in many parts of England, say Liverpool for example, futbol has a similar footprint to that of AFL (although Im sure plenty of Liverpool supporters would rather leave that footprint on the head of a Toffemen supporter!!).

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:34pm | Report comment

Yep, not all Millster, but from what i hear there is many who seem to give oz a bad name, when i go to England i try to steer the ship back, but i am not getting any younger. We are losing the battle with the youth. I think schoolies has not helped. This is exactly the wrong image to project.

True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment

plenty of rugby and league teams incorporate boxing into their training regimes, and also other martial arts as well.

Cant speak for others, but as a youngster to help with ball skills generally and for a bit of variety, we would play basketball with a rugby ball, but Ive always felt that basketball players potentially could make good rugby players because their hand-eye co-ordination would be very well developed – because the skill sets used in futbol are fairly unique, I would find it strange if say a rugby/AFL/NRL side developed their training around futbol. Having said that, for variety again, Im sure plenty of rugby/AFL/League players have engaged in a bit of kicking the round ball around.

Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment

Oikee

I’ll vouch for that None of the real Aussies I worked with on Building sites,factories,(you name it I worked it when I first came here. You could get a job one day, tell the boss to shove it the same day & get another job the next day)exist.
Plenty of character & unique sayings.
In those days working class Poms & Aussies had one thing in common,drinking piss & getting pissed & a disrespect of authority.
Why do you think Redcliffe got settled by a large percentage of working class Poms. Shear heaven. Sunshine ,a beach, a cheap house you could buy & not rent, Pubs . Sort of gave you the lifestyle of the fisherman you mention without being a rich bastard. Something a working bloke could never acheive in Englands class ridden society.
But unfortunately just like the simple Sheffield I grew up where the working class had values unlike today(drugs aplenty beat up old ladies)the world has also caught up with Australia. Not for the better mind either. Compare driving for instance 28 years ago when I first settled in Brisbane with today. Its like dodgem cars now. Nobody gives a stuff. I’m sure if they could drive over the top of you they would. Same as service in shops . Assistants used to be helpful ,now its like their doing you a favour. Mobile phones going off here there & everywhere. Call me a dinosaur I dont care. Gimme a bone.

Speaking of migrants & their kids heres a young lad making it at the Roar:-

http://www.qldroar.com.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&id=25406

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment

Also agree true tah, but the English way is what we expect, i dont mind them because i expect this behaviour, with the aussies its all disapointment. Nothing of what other countries expect. Which in turn gives us a bad name, imagine being referred to as yanks. Oh the shame.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment

hang on, soccer season runs for how many months?? You’ve got EPL, CArling cup, FA Cup, UEFA Cup, world cups qualifiers, friendlies, and euro’s etc going almost constantly in England/Europe…………isn’t it a pretty well 9-10 month pursuit? Now, in England, we know there to be some pockets of RL, and some pockets of RU…………but, tell me that outside of those pockets that the soccer isn’t over exposed, and an effective monopoly.

………..we play footy each weekend (and for most of the history, only on Sat arvo, thus, once a week) – for about 5-6 months of the coldest part of the year.

If you want a 3-way oligopoly, we’ll throw in cricket, and tennis……….

I could only assume you meant a ‘footballing’ monopoly…………remember that Melbourne is the city of the MCG, packing the stadium out in times past for a Vic vs NSW sheffield shield game!!! Let alone test matches and odi’s etc. Again, back in the glory days of Australian tennis – - this city is the home of the Open, Kooyong and now Melbourne Park (whatever they call it?)……..the most stable basketball team (the Tigers) is in Melbourne, the most stable HAL team is in Melbourne…….and yet people seem to think it strange that the boost of Melb AFL attendances counter balanced interstate sluggishness to boost the 2008 H&A crowds to a new record within that sporting environment.

You can’t make us Melb folk feel guilty.

And, this is taking the cake – - you’re taking a lend of me (I assume, as you can’t put out such drivel otherwise) :
“AFL in Melbourne is like the commies in Cuba. Yes small and globally unimportant territiory. But an overwhelming and abnormal dominance of it nontheless.”

So, you’re effectively comparing the importance of Melb to Australia with the importance of Cuba to the world…………nice one. I heard someone pumping up Sydney the other day, 1 in 5 Australians lives in Sydney……….well, about 1 in 5.7 Australians lives in Melbourne and Melbourne is catching up on present trends. So, if Melbourne is Cuba, what’s that make Sydney and what’s that make Brisbane.

(btw – note again, Sydney hoping to be like Melb, after looking at poaching the Aust Open tennis, they’re looking into trying to make their Autumn carnival a little more meaningful…………a bit short on original ideas Sydney is, but, after all – - their biggest sporting event finishes in Tasmania!!!)

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:50pm | Report comment

I love the way the Cubans have been getting up the nose of the Americans for five decades – viva Che Guevara!

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment

Anyone who lives in Melb will confirm AFL has a sporting monopoly here.

Take for example todays HS…what did it have on the front pages…details of any of the significant news stories around, maybe even info about the not too insignificant story of Govt support for the WC bid? No Ben Cousin’s, the fact that there is a possibility if Richmond get to put an injured player on a rookie list that this will leave a possibility that they could, maybe recruit Cousins…maybe!!!
Yaaawn.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment

MC – rather than comment back please feel free to take a look at the two major French news sites yourself http://www.lemonde.fr and http://www.lefigaro.fr

You will see from them what ‘weighting’ sports gets in comparison to other social, political and cultural activities. I note that football is probably over-weighted today compared to normal, with it being a UCL match day last night in Europe.

The Cuba thing was not meant as a directly analogous comparison in a statistical sense. Rather I was looking for a metaphor for a territory which was not so important by world standards and yet that doggedly stuck to some insular aspects to its little internal culture, and had those dominate their domestic/internal affairs.

I don’t disagree with the individual line-by-line details of what you write here MC. But even with all that taken into account, the reality is that Melbourne affords AFL a position in its social fabric, its media, its culture that is radically disproportionate to the structure and status of the game in broader global terms.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment

Dave, Millster,

And what dominates the London newspapers, rugby news? Don’t make me laugh.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment

MC,

That’s right. A few years ago, Sydney would gloat we are an event we don’t need big events. That’s called insular Millster.

What is happening now to Sydney?

I love Melbourne’s culture, it’s not as flash or pretty as Sydney Harbour, but it has a soul, an inner vibrance. I love the fact tthat I an go to the MCG (located in a great sporting precinct about to be enhanced by the bublle stadium) and be part of a big crowd, the roar, the exhilration, AFL footy drives that, shits on a pissy 8,250. And don’t tell me big crowds aren’t important.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:12pm | Report comment

RedB – Lets have a look then. Front pages of the major British website as follows – BBC = 1 football and 1 cricket story, less than 5% of page’s overall ‘real estate’. The Times Online = 1 football, 1 cricket, 1 formula one story, about 10% of total page real estate. So half of one and a third of the other…

I don’t understand your emoticons. They generally come after your most inflamatory statements. As for the crowds, maybe you could look at it the other way. Sydney crowds of 8250 may be righfully reflective of what a club that doesn’t have its act together deserves in a domestic league which is struggling for improvement. 50000+ to the MCG for what when the covers are lifted is also nothing more than a suburban comp, well hyped admittedly, but in fact with less surety given to fans that they are seeing anything of value (simply due to the total absence of external reference points) might be more a reflection of an unimaginative sheep-herd-like behaviour than of a discerning audience.

I love Melbourne’s culture too, and love the city overall. But I’d love it even more if AFL was toned down a bit down there.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment

Dave -

the herald sun is NOT a serious newspaper.

But – - is it that much different to the way the NRL is presented in Sydney??

However – - the website can be vastly different, and even in the AFL finals, we were struggling to get AFL images on the sports page……….there little 1 of 3 main photo section very often carried some overseas soccer player, and the thumbnail stories were very rarely AFL ones………….hardly the expected sports page of the Melbourne monopoly newspaper.

It was actually so consistant, and so bad that I was driven to complaint, as, it was not representing the Melbourne sports news adequately…………kinda looked more like a Sydney news.com.au website……..(I wonder!!).

So, be careful about being too selective, btw – - it’s old news (back to FEb 2008) that K.Rudd would support the FFA and Ben Cousins is a continuing sage the like of which news ltd loves to stretch our in the public domain, and even Ben has recieved coverage and been the subject of blogs/forums in the US not at all related to sport or footy. He IS actually a pretty big human interest story – - and if ALL you see in it is “AFL” and you don’t see the human interest element of it all – - – then, that speaks pretty poorly of your own anti-AFL stance now that verges on obsession.

Millster –

I scroll down Le Monde, and all I see are soccer pictures, I turn to the soccer pages, and all I see are soccer pictures and a dominance of ‘football’ stories…………a little F1.

What’s your point??

Football also dominates the Le Figaro sports section.

Now – the Herald sun has a banner headline re Cousins, but the ‘rotating’ 1 of 3 photos are ‘fat’ John Daly, a Mick Gatto punching victim and Miranda Kerr in a pink bra and undies…………..(not much wrong with that lot!!)

The sports homepage –

the 1 of 2 rotating pictures are MIchael Klinger (cricket) and some US baseballer?!?!?!?

The thumbnail stories :
Golf
Golf
Cricket
Soccer (Wayne Rooney?!?!?)
Cricket (NZ vs West Indies ?!?!?!)
Ben Cousins
Cricket
Frank Lowy
NBL
NRL

problems??

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment

l love Melb too Sydenee Schmidenee MV over SFC, Ess over Swans, MCG over Telstra, Bubble Stadium over SFS etc although l do like Sydenee Harbour.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment

btw – the double whammy of the human interest of the Ben Cousins story is that it includes the Graham Polak element – - i.e. the fellow who was hit by the tram. And, the parallel (or not) with ADam Ramanauskas who was the fellow placed onto the ‘rookie’ list whilst under going cancer treatment.

So – - – every where you look, it’s high level human interest.

So, again,……….if all you see in that is “bloody AFL”, then your too stuck with your head up you ‘rrrrrr’s to see the the story in it’s broader context.

btw – - the FFA is ruddy lucky that the headlines are “45-0, Govt beats FFA by 45Mill to nothing in funding the FFA’s ego boosting” and “Foreign aid : Govt 45.6mill granted to FIFA delegates”

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment

Whats this bubble stadium business??

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

“that speaks pretty poorly of your own anti-AFL stance now that verges on obsession.”
No anti AFL stance but certainly anti AFL media sentiment. I enjoy the game but l dont enjoy it being constantly rammed down my throat by an unimaginative biased media who are doing nothing other than making sure they still have a job when the next edition/bulletin comes out. (l no longer buy or read HS but saw its front page as l bought todays Age).

News isnt important anymore.

The example of today’s HS front page is repeated ad naseum throughout the year AFL season or not.
l just like to get a little balance back and put things into perspective…as for AFL the game it can be terrific (2nd in my list behind football).

ren said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

Millster-”To what extent to the various codes cross-train in their development of kids? Do AFL teams play modified touch or similar for fitness and ball handling? Do League or Union guys play kick-to kick or some fast, simple futsal type game? (I know Sydney FC have incorporated both touch footy and boxing in their training).”

In my football training for my school 1st team we did a lot of boxing, and wrestling. we did a ridiculous amount of running and played touch (on our knees for some reason, leg strength or something like that) and also played footy on a soccer ground with a version of offside (the purpose i think was to teach us about finding space and room where there was very little, we were after all playing 15 a side on a half field)

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment

forget the internet websites they can divide the stories via tabs, I’m talking the actual papers, back page in particular. How many back pages would get devoted to futbol compared to rugby or rugby league?

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment

Suckers, Sydney has what we all want, class, but brisbane to me has that small town atmosphere and laid back approach by the people who occupy the place. Its fast becoming a pill box because of the amount of people wishing to live there. And the sprawl going to the coast, shame.
Towser, brilliant, love Redcliffe and yes exactly what i love about the beachfront properties. We lived at Wynnum on the other side so much the same and our house was on top of the hill overlooking the bay islands. Now, my old man sold this house, a old queenslander, you know what they did, pulled it down and put 2 penthouse apartments up. See what i mean by destroying our image, our culture. Its getting like Monty Carlo down there now, women with red lipstick in bikinis and poddles.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment

Millster – (& Dave)

did you actually look at the HS website frontpage?

Dave was quoting the hard copy on the street.

There’s a vast difference between the relatively ‘live’ websites and the front page of the paper designed to attract a purchase by a commuter scurrying to catch a train.

big, big difference.

No idea why you’re going on about website front pages.

I dare say that WEndall Sailor grabbed the front page when he returned to the field earlier this year, and Andrew Johns, I assume he made the front page with his drug revelations? I really don’t understand the issue here.

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment

Millister

New Melb Rectangular stadium under construction, has a bubble shaped exterior.

Cousins created his own issues and has already been given several chances. Not much interest from me in the rest
Polak well lets just say l hope the guy recovers . l dont think you can compare his ‘incident’ to the heroic efforts of Ramanaskas to overcome a life threatening disease during his career with Essendon.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:40pm | Report comment

What you perceive as rammed down your throat is of interest to AFL fans who are in the majority. Papers sell to their audience. Must be hard if that is your attitude. It would be like having to read Sydney papers every day scanning for any tidbits on AFL.

I think the internet serves you better, so stop whinging about it.

Personally. I think the Tigers Cousins bid is a big story in Melbourne, I’m curious as to how the Richmond faithful will react but judging from the SMS received by SEN this morning they are very supportative. Cousins in a big club will get crowds.

Bubble stadium is the new rectangular stadium being built in Melbourne, at least looks like a bubble from a design perspective. It will add to the sporting precinct which is just awesome, sorry can’t be humble about it, it is magnificent especially considering it’s proximity to the Melbourne CBD.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment

ren -

AFL – certainly do boxing,

at local level we’ve played a good amount of touch rugby but with handballs obviously.

Soccer don’t do much good, rather though, reviewing other codes for strategy and the like, is very common, and AFL coaches often head overseas for study tours of all sorts of sporting clubs.

actually, a good fun footy training game is ‘baseball’ footy, where you have to kick the ball out into the field and make it around the bases, the fielders have to kick/handball to the basemen. I really enjoy that one.

Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment

Dave Millster

Perhaps as football fans you should be more worried about the abundance of overseas football stories in all sections of the media over domestic football stories. By domestic I also include Stories about Australians playing in the top leagues in Europe.
I would say that in the newspaper I get every day “The Australian” Overseas football in particular the EPL receives twice as much coverage as the “Domestic”.

An even worse picture can be painted when I go to the source of “Football ” news in Australia SBS & which I have relied on since its inception as a TV station to keep me informed on football happenings.
I used to follow their World Sports show at 7pm which generally had enough time to give give you a fairly even distribution of overseas & domestic football.
However now there is news from 6.30 to 7.30 they have had to obviously restrict daily sports news to a concentrated segment. Therefore a need to prioritise. Its obvious where their priorities lie when it comes to football. Overseas first & foremost ,domestic as an afterthought.
The other night in their news headlines at the beginning they had the usual depressing financial or Middle East news ,then a leading sports story about Liverpool heading the EPL.
OK give me all sorts of reasons why they did this. Maybe there catering to their market for instance. I’m afraid I dont buy any of them.
Because if football is reported at all on a commercial channel news its generally Overseas once again.

If SBS cant be bothered with domestic football why pick on anybody else & direct blame?

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment

I think some stories are created to put codes down, remember the image of league, still does scare some people but at least the head-highs and spear tackles are gone. So we have a story like cousins still going on, hes at a cross road because he does not do the AFL any favours. League has got the bird case along with many others this year. Soccer is yet to taste the real pressure of the media, what happens when each week we are reading these reports, do we take the same stance as league and aussie rules, or do we try to sink the boot in because we want a tarnished image for Soccer. Better off getting all things out in the open, let the public become amuned to the crap and get on with the good stories, like the uanda brisbame guy now playing for the roar. Mind you in that picture you showed me there was 2 dark guys, so i did not know which one he was.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment

$ 5.95 Thats what it costs you to get the rugby league week, so you can read all the stories to your hearts content. Get over the papers, i dont read the suckers anymore anyhow. I go online and type in rugby league news. All the stories i can handle and then i type rugby league roar, hey presto. Buy a magazine if you want stories, i noticed last year that all the stories i was reading online were in the league weekly mag.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment

DAve -

look, I agree about a lot of the over reporting of AFL stuff…….last week the obvious example was picking on Joffa the well known Collingwood cheer squad member, of all things making him newsworthy because one of his mates took a photo of him posing with a couple of rifles…………….

…………and that’s meant to be news??

newsworthy?

shocking??

Ivan Milat he ain’t!!!!

He’s a ruddy social worker with I think the Salvos or someone like that……………

But, the Ben Cousins story – - that is big news, I can live with that, but, agreed………..he acted up, he’s only got himself to blame and last week as well when they used the leaked email of the AFLPA pych to try to blame the AFL……….that was rich, given it’s the papers and media who turned it into a media circus!!!!

So – - in general, I agree fully,………….but……………it must work, it must sell papers, because,…………they keep doing it, and that can’t be denied.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment

Yes M.C remember Big Mal dropping Jacko like a sack of patatoes. Charity fights, now they were good, i think Barry Hall would be a crowd faverite. Not sure who league has to conterate him, maybe big willie, i think Hall would take him.

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment

So all that is going on in Oz and around the world today and you think it is fair and reasonable that the biggest selling newspaper in this city has as its front page, not back page (total cover) a story of Richmond maybe possibly could be who knows(even though they said no last week) recruiting Cousins possibly. Errr get real.
News it aint trying to sell more papers for sure. News is no longer relevant to the NEWSpapers.
You are right l get most of my info off the internet and hopefully most others will learn to do the same very quickly.
That is why l consider the HS an AFL mouthpiece.

Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment

Here’s a better picture of the lad.

http://www.qldroar.com.au/default.aspx?s=yleague_profile&pid=1745&tid=274

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment

Get some of these soccer dudes into the action, that french player for the Glory looks like a likely customer.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment

yes Dave,

Because that’s what sells newspapers to the masses in Melbourne. I personally only ever buy the AGE or Fin Review. If Essendon won on the weekend I will buy the Herald Sun and the AGE to read with full gloating pleasure, soaking it all up.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:09pm | Report comment

Thanks Towser, i thought it might have been him, hes a pretty boy and looks very happy. Must be the Brisbane wheather.

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment

Agreed.

Towser

Agreed and the reason…because historically the only football news considered worthy was from overseas (Aussies in Englad since late 70s). The Oz football news in comparison was about a team with the name Croatia tacked on played against another team with the name Hellas tacked on??? (just using those 2 as an example and not having a go at the people who supported and played for them) Who is that going to interest apart from Croatian and Hellas supporters?
The whole media issue is frustrating but interesting to look at. It will take a generational change for this reliance on EPL as the major football news to change. When new reporters come through the system after having had exposure to new football (remember only in its 4th year) a little more balanced coverage may occur.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment

Towser,

Correct, even in the Herald Sun there are probably more column inches devoted to the EPL outside of Melb Victory game preview articles than the HAL (Dave might confirm). There is often EPL sports news on free to air news shows. Australia is a large British migrant country, they are playing to the masses.

When i think about it, the EPL has always been in the papers and on TV , going back at least to the mid 1970s.

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment

So you very rarely buy the HS then…

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

agreed re the old ethnic suffixes,

the more balanced coverage – - it’ll be interesting to see the path it takes………..especially over the summer months…………2 Melb teams should improve it,

as for now……….there is 1 game a fortnight, ………roughly,………..because there’s all these non soccer weekends as well, and often 3-4 weeks between games………..which is why you can’t really complain presently,……….it’s hardly a rusted on part of the town during any period of the year.

In winter, there is about 85% of the time a game in Melb on a Friday night, and 95% of the time at least 1 on a Saturday arvo (of course, it used to be 100% of the time 6 games on a saturday).

Soccer still has a ways to go to deserve the coverage that you yearn for.

Certainly though, 1 game a week most of the time, a couple of local derbies……….and you hope two financially stable clubs – - – pending the capacity for the Hearts or whatever to actually get off the ground successfully and survive the first 5 years (and then the next 5 – - no one imagines it’ll be easy, but, they need to get in to capture part of the first 2 years ‘novelty’ factor of the new stadium, to A. not allow all that soccer novelty to be absorbed by MVFC, and to B. not allow Storm to capture the rest of the ’stadium novelty’ that ISN’T going to be RL specific).

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment

Just getting back to you M.C on expansion and also calling Aussie rules football. I have said that rules needs to create another comp somewhere, anywhere, just create the sucker. Then you can have a good pathway for your players overseas. League has done this for 100 years in England but it is fast coming to a end, because the brittish game is expanding and getting better. What league needs now is a good 3rd comp elswhere so they can send players to that comp.

Now the word football, i would be happy to just call soccer football, (because it is) with a few headers thrown in, league i would be happy to just call it league or super league, Union is a nusience because it follows the same path. So i would be happy to call union, rugby if we could come to terms. As for Aussie rules, maybe another name if you go global, you would have to think of a good name, not marn gook like K.B would love to use, but a global name. Get away from the Vic sentrick look to the game.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment

So hang on RedB and MC…. (and wow this thread has strayed from the original debate)…. when football news supposedly dominates the papers of the major world capitals it is an evil and oppressive global monoculture. When AFL news dominates the pages of Melbourne (and Adelaide and Perth) papers it is excused as giving the majority audience what it want… HUH???? A touch of inconsistency there perhaps? Especially in light of MC’s pointing out that there are numerous worthy sporting pastimes going on in Melbourne (which presumably could and should be given greater weight in local press reporting)??? Am I missing something or does this just not fit together correctly….

All I can say is that I am every day more glad that I’ve in Sydney, where (splitting it into rough proportions across the 7 days in the week) 2.5 days I get League on the back page, 1 day Union, 1 day AFL, 1.5 days cricket, 1/2 day football and 1/2 day everything else. Sure I wish for a bit more football news at the expense of maybe a touch less league, but goddamn it sure beats 6 or 7 days AFL saturation, including as we’re seeing currently even the ability to manufacture stories in the off-season. I’m glad to live in a city where the assumption is made that the audience wants more than the one same old thing.

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment

Coverage of the A-League in the Age? Outside of the Victory, I’d say the coverage of the A-League is comparable to the coverage of all overseas leagues combined – just an off the cuff estimate.

All of it combined is still less than the coverage of the AFL – and that’s during the Summer!!

Throw in the front page stories of Ben Cousins, and the social pages, and well, we better stop counting.

Actually, when Ljubo Milicevic was with the Victory, he got their count of mentions in the social pages way, way up!

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment

Oikee – for the second time in a few weeks, due to your post immediately above, you have made me smile and if I could grab you and give you a bear hug and a kiss on your ugly scone I would

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment

Millster
yes, quite a conundrum – I think the answer would be as follows.

Coverage of AFL in Melbourne is more akin to covering a cultural icon than a sporting contest – comparable to covering the opera at La Scala in the local Milanese rag.

You don’t see the locals getting up in arms about that!

Do you have something against Australian culture?

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment

As an aside, another question, how does the Age or the HS do in terms of reporting of the Italian and Greek leagues in its column inches devoted to non HAL football? Obviously very major constituencies in Melbourne… obviously I’m questioning Redb’s characterisation of us as a ‘British migrant country’ as a causal factor for EPL dominance. Here in Sydney there is a touch of news sometimes on Spain or Italy, more so when in the context of the UCL comp than the domestic leagues of those countries.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment

Could be interesting then next year M.C , as you might have heard 9 has bought the rights for some super league games to be shown. Extremely good veiwing i have to admit. The overly enthused poms loving there game and supporter base bulging at the hips i have just read, makes for good veiwing. Weather they take these games into melbourne and other cities will be interesting.. I for one have followed these games on Fox (2 games a week) wanting to see more. League is doing well overseas since moving to Summer, i can see soccer also over time doing well in oz. But under my thoery of walk before you run.

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment

these are my suggestions:

Big Footy

Wild Footy

Oval (or translation of that from a footy friendly language)

Freeball

Onside

Tron

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment

Re Serie A and La Liga, as you say, a touch. The Greek league – bugger all.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment

Agree Millster, i think we should be getting soccer reports all summer, because the game is being played. Same goes in the Brisbane papers, i cant find 2 many stories about league around, more soccer than anything. But i accept this because its soccer season. Now theres a good catch phrase for the season. ” SOCCER SEASON”. Bit like “SAUSAGE SIZZLE”

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment

How do you know its an ugly scone?

Seriously though you’re second last post 1st paragraph makes a very valid point.
In terms of AFL monopoly of the Melb media well you get used to it and find ways to seek out real news/storys eg paytv or internet.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment

Pip – but La Scala has a major opera perhaps 5 or 6 times a year. Whereas AFL has this relentless, never-ending coverage.

I love Australia but to me it has many dimensions, facets, diversity. And AFL is not a big one of those facets in the grand scheme of things – in fact directly to your post, lets not shit ourselves. You simply cannot equate AFL to Australian culture. It isn’t even relevant to 50% of the country’s inhabitants. But you get to Melbourne and its like nothing else of value exists sometimes.

Metaphor – I love French culture too but if someone grabbed just one small slice of it – say chocolate eclairs – and made me eat them to a point that I was nauseous each and every single day of the year I’d soon become jaded with that one element of it. That wouldn’t make me anti-French. But it would make me react negatively to eclairs!! Unless of course I was from a town where they had eaten that quantity of eclairs since birth, in which case I would develop a kind of digestive myopia where I accepted eclair saturation to an unhealthy level without knowing any better… and at the cost of opening myself to other culinary possibilities from further afield.

Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment

“supporter base bulging at the hips i have just read” Does that mean they’re all fat?

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment

I rather like the Dutch word for “oval” – eivormig, i.e. egg shaped.

All who agree with eivormig say aye!!

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment

Would you get over French maids as quicly as chocolate eclairs?

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:43pm | Report comment

Pippinu – why not something with some AFL tradition? The game could be called Cazaly for example…

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment

I like Tron, i want it to be modern. Tronathon. Men of tron, theres a couple of offshoots for the upcoming games.

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment

Haha Pip… never! Or Australian maids, Swedish maids, …..

More seriously though the notion that I’ve seen a few times in past months that not being fanatical about AFL is unAustralia really troubles me. I am proudly Australian and yet I have a comfortably warm neutrality about the game at best – enjoying it for what it is but not as a major priority in either my sporting or my overall life. I’d hate to live in a country where there was a short-list of things you had to be to be seen as Australian.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment

Good, cazaly, very good. But Tron is good, Big Bad Ugly Trondikes.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment

hang on just one cotton picking minute – YOU started on about Melbourne being a sports monoculture and AFL dominating……we’ve simply tried to illustrate that soccer gets the same (and for a longer season) in MANY overseas cities where soccer is and has been the footballing monoculture for quite some time…………….but, not nearly as significantly intertwined with the history of the city from day dot (+/- 23 years) as is the case with the native combination of rules developed locally in Melbourne.

It’s a bit like the Holden……………..y’see, losing the Nissan manufacturing plant about 20 years ago was sad, losing Mitsubishi from Adelaide was sad,…………if we lost Toyota from Altona, that’d be sad……………but BY GOD, don’t take our HOLDEN!!!!!

THat’s what it means.

If you still don’t ‘get it’, then, perhaps you don’t care about Holden either!?!?!?

btw – my parents are Danish but in the main I couldn’t give a stuff about what the Danish papers are reporting………..and that’s even WITH an Aussie princess.

THere has traditionally been a very prominant Italian language newspaper over the years that carried a lot of the Italian community specific stuff.

Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:55pm | Report comment

Like yourself I dont really need newspapers or TV anymore to get Football news I go to the Internet. On the Internet there is reliable sources of Daily Football news. However I am a lifelong fan. I actively seek out Football news both domestically & from around the globe.
So in reality there is no real need for anybody who follows any sport to whinge anymore about their sports coverage in the media. But what is now required(& this can be applied to any sport) is a complete rethink by Sports administrators on how to reach their audience via the media’s of the future such as the Internet,particularly as their future viewing audience is from the technology savvy generations coming through..
I’m from the newspaper at the front door generation yet have managed to change my mindset to use the Internet as my main source of information & knowledge. So surely it wouldnt take much for the FFA to connect to say the up & coming generation of football fans in Australia via the Internet(Lets face it its been a perennial whinge of football fans in Australia the lack of connection to the massive junior base & their families)so they have say some sort of incentive to view sites such as TWG & particulary 442 for A-League news. Maybe competitions & the like aimed at kids I see none of that. Lets face it every sport has to find a way of connecting to the up & coming generations. They wont connect to them via the old ways,yet I’ve seen no real evidence that their connecting through the new ways either. Perhaps I’m wrong & I’m not aware & I will stand to be corrected but I cant see it

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment

Name for the Aust footy code -

terra-ball

following NSW as the ‘premier state’, because they came first,

premierball

NRG ball

dyna ball

hyperball

(lustyball)

adjustaball

changeaball

FLEXIBALL

variaBALL

mutaBALL

GloBall

how about Foot-T, (pronounced ‘foot-tee’), nah, that actually works more for rugby kicking off a little tee or a mound of sand………..sheesh, it ain’t easy.

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:03pm | Report comment

Pipps -

Barrasheed?

Cazlow?

Pipp-ball???

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment

MC – now you really have me on a soap box – thanks to this stupid nationalistic bent we have thrown good money after bad, at both state and national levels, to prop up this idealistic notion of the Aussie Holden (which in fact is a General Motors – ie USA – subsidiary ironically…). Most recently $6bn announced by Rudd at a time when for gods sake we are in an economic crisis and we need a steely resolve to strengthen our economy and make important structural decision for the future (and how the hell one could possibly see the propping up of our thoroughly failed car industry as a good structural decision has eluded me for a decade). No I don’t care about the Holden one bit… actually I do care, I care that my money as a taxpayer has been thrown over an over again at a company making substandard quality cars with a repeatedly failed business model. Its nothing short of a disgrace. And I’m not even getting onto the issue of Labor party and unions and the corrupt morass behind all that.

Surely you want AFL to be tested, and either live or die, on merit. Not because of some cutesy notion that it has an inherent right to survival just because a few pissed blokes in a pub 149 years ago scratched out a bastardisation of Rugby and Football onto a piece of paper.

No I don’t get it at all. What you are promoting is the most dismal of parochial regionalistic protectionism. And its a philosophy that I abhor!

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment

Wonkyball

Notfootball

(actually I don’t like the ones ending in ball)

I’m still on the Cazaly League… then you could have the CLA (cazaly league australia), CLUS, CLUK (haha), etc… I’d put the CL first as it clearly brands the game in its abbreviated form and also the other way (ACL) would be mixed up with Asian Champions League and we’d get back into fights about nomenclature that AFL / Cazaly would inevitably lose

Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:17pm | Report comment

live or die on merit – - that’d be fine,

but, we know there’s no such thing as a level playing field.

SOccer – - we know, relies on external factors to pump it up, i.e. the popularity response to a World Cup, and then, it fades away again.

Remove all external factors, and allow AFL to go head to head with NRL, ARU and HAL and see what happens.

All the other codes have this ‘international’ dimension which is lauded over the AFL…………(for all the good it does them).

But, seriously – - do you see the HAL ever moving the AFL off the scene WITHOUT the influence of external factors………….i.e. hosting a FIFA WC, and having the Govt build a whole heap of freebie soccer dedicated stadiums………..because, remember, the FFA has no money to sink into all this……………….soccer IS NOT progressing on it’s internal merits.

And many soccer advocates believe they will win the day because all kids – in their minds – will seek to go overseas and make big dollars internationally, test themselves against the best overseas and see the world.

So – - unless you can make it a level playing field……………which it never will be…………

and the FFA and HAL could fall in a heap, but, soccer will NOT die internationally should that happen………….the FFA does not have anything like the responsibility that the AFL does for the health of an entire code of football rather than a national federation.

So – - talk to me about individual merit when the FFA can pump some of their own hard earneds into building a major stadium or funding their own WC bid. Or even funding their own NINE national teams that parade around the ‘international stage’…………..ruddy Govt should be saying…………..”No, you need to learn to derive your own revenue streams and be self sufficient”……………….Govt’s are populated by w@nkers!!!

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

“the FFA does not have anything like the responsibility that the AFL does for the health of an entire code of football ”

Again massively overstated. The world would not blink if AFL ceased to exist at a professional level. Personally, I don’t want it to die of course, or be ‘moved off the scene’, but the administrators do not have responsibility for something whose existence is of any significant global impact. Its just a little local game for gods sake.

I’m sure some species of insect or small amphibian or crustacean or something has become extinct in Guatemala today. Has your life changed?

And no it is not a level playing field. Note that I didn’t ask for a level playing field or even raise one – I don’t even believe in the concept – rather, I spoke of “on merit” which includes a range of environmental factors for each code. I also don’t believe in removing external factors, for it is those factors that allow us to gain a reasoned perspective …. including assessing whether or not a code which covers 3 cities on the entire planet on the southern coast of one country should be treated the same way and given the same support with one that offers linkages to a truly global stage and integration with countries and cultures the world over.

Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

Towser
there already is an incentive to read 442 online – especially every Wednesday morning:

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/90843,blog-too-much-of-a-good-thing.aspx

Koala Bear said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

If this is a new naming contest; I would like to put forward:-

A few names that have been bouncing around the ROAR for sometime… 1). Marn Grook 2). Marngrook 3). Grooky.. these are the best by far and have an Australian connection .. Give it back to the indigenous folk … After all it was Tom Wills who stole the game from them and pretended it was he who had invented it… Do the right thing and embrace the name Marn Grook .. Hurrah… finally we are getting somewhere …

~~~~~~
KB

Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment

Gotta go – GO ADELAIDE tonight!! 9.35pm SBS

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment

Now Now M.C lets not forget that league has always had a fight to survive, against the dark side, UNION. but we have come through and i think its nearly time we started to shine. We are not really in a fight with other codes, yes we had the AFL shuffle i call it, scared of the unknown, but we are getting past that. Soccer we dont have to fight, we have learned to co-exsist. Look to be honest, if i had to make a choice between Cricket Golf or Soccer in the summer months, soccer is the game i would have to follow. The other 2 have their obvious reasons for me to let them go.

But AFL has to expand overseas, put your efforts into that, not worrying about oz, if your games popular it will expand by itself.

oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:17pm | Report comment

I just seen a disturbing AFL add, hawthorn pointing to a cup saying thats why i love to play footy, bullshite, lets just get a pile of money and throw it in the air and say thats why i like to play footy, be honest about it, league players are, they go to union for bigger dollars. Thats why they love to play Union.

Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment

Pippinu

Maybe this is just the start of Pippinus Football wonderland for Aussie Kids.

Got to say that though that all round 442 is a superb source of information regarding the A-League & football generally in Australia.

sheek said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:05pm | Report comment

At time of posting, I’m #157, & I apologise for not reading about 150 other posts to date.

Let’s be clear about this. Australian Football is a great sport, & I like it.

But if American Football can’t conquer the globe from the lofty height enjoyed by its country, then Australian Football certainly won’t from the backwater occupied by its country.

No need for the wisdom of Solomon, or Job, or Socrates, or Plato, or Achimedes, or da Vinci, or Einstein, or Mandela, or whoever.

It’s so god-damned obvious, stop being blinded by emotion.

Norm said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment

sheek
stop beating about the bush & tell us what you really think!

Forgetmenot said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:26pm | Report comment

Sheek,

American football requires padding, and is a sport that is much harder to understand off no experience than football is.

Oikee said,
“But AFL has to expand overseas, put your efforts into that, not worrying about oz, if your games popular it will expand by itself.”

In reply,
I have thought about that as well. Maybe the AFL should stop ploughing money into NSW and instead put it all into the International development of the game in say South Africa, Asia, or the USA. I dont think Europe is a viable place to grow the game. In a globalised world the sport does need to grow, and football lovers cannot afford to sit around saying, “We are the most popular sport in these states” because one day it might not be, and then what!!I
I think the biggest hurdle for football is to get another country playing well enough to play Australia. Or get two other countries obsessed enough with the game to get a decent series going. I think once that happens, football will rapidly catch up to league in International presence, and quickly establish itself behind Union.
In the next 50 years i think it is possible for another country to be able to play Australia and challenge them. I also think it is possible to convert 2 Asian countries to the sport (or part of a large one). And that is the most optimistic i am willing to be. And to those people say “Ur dreaming”, yes i am dreaming. And dreaming is the place of ideas, and i am willing and i am motivated to turn my dream into reality.

Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:32pm | Report comment

Sheek, no-one here has said Aust footy will conquer the world. But it has taken some small tentative steps finally in the right direction to achieiving some international presence.

For the record i have no problem with Aussie Rules or Australian football as the name and doubt it has had any bearing on the game’s ability to expand. In South Africa it is promoted as Footywild.

Boris the Mudcrab said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:33pm | Report comment

Wow what a great thread!!!
Lets get fair dinkum and rate the sports

AFL – No chance of “genuine “International” growth….Very Very Popular in a Few Aust States and Passing interest in the others. Seems intent for Australian and world domination!
Soccer – The World Game…The game the world loves with the exception of US, Aust, Canada. NZ, PNG, Pacific Is, South Africa and no doubt a few others. Played by everyone from women, wimpy kids, over-protected children and no doubts very talented athletes. Supporters of soccer seem to think this should be the only game that exists for some reason. It seems world domination is not enough!
Rugby League – Can at least claim a competition called a “World Cup” Very Popular in a couple of Australian States with Good Interest in Britian. NZ, Growth in the Pacific Islands & PNG and a passing interest in the rest of Australia and a half dozen or so other countries.Locally is becoming worried about the $ some of the Union countries are throwing around (France)
Rugby Union – Popular in a couple of Australian States and a passing interest in a couple of other Aust States. Can claim a genuine World Cup and a genuine international program. Supporters in Australia are frustrated by Rugby Leagues dominance in the “main’ states of NSW, QLD and being more popular than Union in VIC. No 1 sport in NZ. Sth Africa and most of the Pacific Is

Finally I think that we are blessed in Australia as we have a choice of sports to watch and support. I can appreciate soccer, but if it was all that I could watch I think I would head for the GAP!!!

True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:44pm | Report comment

Boris

futbol is no. 1 in South Africa, athough rugby is a very popular sport there.

Midfielder said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment

My first post as I don’t like these kind of threads but will make a couple of comments and disappear.

As I see it the AFL management is only in it’s recent history pushing hard into NSW & QLD. Reason as given by the AFL needed to maintain or improve existing media deals … if that is the main reason I find that weird.

The media comments are typical on this thread but if the people trying to defend AFL media coverage in Melbourne, first you don’t have to defend it, … it simply is… we football folk have to earn our place at the table and in a professional capacity we have not earn that place yet… However to the AFL folk you do get an unbelievable good media in Melbourne and again until the very recent past football got the one in four year WCQ and other than that were is the riot..even (and Redb not the AFL’s fault) channel 7 had management team to some extent trying to bury football. Today that battle is over football now gets reasonable reporting what we lack now is space and time … but it will come. I gleam this change from the riot stories to some good / reasonable press is seen by some as a football is now getting more than it should good news stories. When football folk will argue it is still very small. … Football coverage will increase and it will get more positive over the next few years.

The problem AFL has in it’s expansion plans are twofold prior to this season the AFL never openly declared war on the other codes preferring to warn RL & RU people of the sleeping giant … only when Ron Brasattie (sorry if spelt wrong) made his speech. Suddenly NSW & QLD folk and media began to look at AFL claims and openly question things taken for granted in Melbourne as being gospel truth. This has caught many by surprise and was I think unexpected as prior to the delegation of war started by the AFL these things were never questioned. Secondly the NRL are fighting a stronger than expected fight.

But coming back to my general theme the AFL management teams over the years chose a course of action to have maximum coverage in the southern states and the drive north and internationally is driven by future potential media deals otherwise why start now why not this effort 30 or 10 years ago.

I think in the extreme this is a very foolish move by the AFL management as they have promised a lot to a lot of people to the Media the ratings to AFL clubs future media deals … so when the key driver is money / media / sponsors, something does not work for me, not much has to go wrong to get many offside when money and rating are the driving force.

Forgetmenot said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:06pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

It is a key marketing concept that if a business goes after money then it is doomed to fail. However if the business aims to please its existing customers then others will how much the business cares and will go to that business instead. The AFL currently seems to be going for money, and adopting a marketing strategy similar to the NFL.

I think that the AFL is right to go to the Gold Coast, but i am still hesitant about Western Sydney. Perhaps initially the move is for the TV deals, but maybe there are other reasons such as showing the game to all the immigrants in Western Sydney.

Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 7:07am | Report comment

Ron Barassi. There have been a few passionate followers of football like Barassi who have made statements which could be considered having a ‘ world domination’ agenda. There are far more people who are realisitic about footy’s expansion prospects both in NSW and QLD, and then a limited sense internationally. What some posters have assumed is that it’s all or nothing for the AFL in terms of international presence, it’s not.

Much like you often suggest with the administration of soccer the AFL has only got its act together in the last 5-6 years (NSW/QLD). It’s past strategy was to re-locate a team, assume everyone would flock and the game would grow. It now realises you must build from the grass roots level upwards, literally create support through playing the game. That is a big part of the agenda re expansion into NSW and QLD, it’s not just about the media, that is how it has been reported in NSW and QLD by people with other football code agendas.

Domestic scene
I think the AFL was suprised by the size of the last media deal with the concept of extra value due to TV ratings in NSW and QLD. It is now part of the agenda to drive the TV deal with two new teams. But let’s be clear, the main agenda is to grow the game of Australian football.

To Boris the RL man, QLD is far more advanced than NSW with regard to Aussie Rules. You also forget that a good proportion of southern NSW is AFL territory. I’m in southern NSW towns on a regular basis, 4 posts dominate the sporting grounds of these NSW towns.

I’ll take you to task on the ‘main’ states comment as well. 1. NSW, 2. VIC, 3. QLD, 4. WA, etc Take southern NSW and far more presence in QLD for AFL than the rugbies in VIC and you much greater depth for AFL than NRL or rugby union. AFL is bigger.

International Scene
Midfielder, there have been exhibition matches played for 3 -4 decades by the VFL/AFL, they’re good for expats but drive little in the way of local grass roots teams and leagues. It has only been in the last 2 years, yes just 2 years, that the AFL has tried to build (with funding) the game from the grass roots in another country. In that context, the AFL has an enormous task and is eons behind the other codes.

Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:09am | Report comment

Midfielder -

why not 30 or 10 years ago…………..30 years ago we had 6 games on a saturday in Victoria, and the Aust Footy states were just kicking off State of Origin (soon to be copied by the RL folk), and Kerry Packer was weaving his WSC magic.

10 years on from that, the VFL was recovering the situation after having clubs broke and players being paid 10 cents in the dollar (St.Kilda, Fitzroy….). South Melb were getting established in Sydney with Docter Edelston, and the West Coast Eagles where just kicking off along with a team of cast offs up at Carrara but called ‘Brisbane’. VFL lost sight of international aspects in PNG and RL got a kick along later in the decade. I doubt though you’d call it a major tactical blunder, there were only so many resources

10 years on from that, the ‘original’ 12 has become 16. Fitzroy have just effectively made way for Port and we now have the Brisbane Lions in Brisbane. We’ve gone from 12 teams in Victoria to 10. And 6 teams across 4 states making up the rest.Plenty of activity, plenty of change, and, perhaps the code is saved from becoming a totally irrelevant state based regional curiosity rather than a national based one.

10 years on, today…………….over the last 10 years, a period of consolidation of the national competition perhaps highlighted by a period of interstate premierships to Brisbane, Port, Syd and WCE. The AFL has overseen 3 successful INternational Cup tournaments and now the next 10-20 years offers real potential of international footy recruits NOT drawn from Ireland.
The next 10 years also promises 2 new teams built from the ground up – one a seemingly accepted no brainer from the Gold Coast, and the other with definitiive pros and cons (and they vary relative to time frame) from West Sydney, along with moves from Tassie.

Is the AFL simply chasing money? Is there any logical reason to stop at 16? Is there any reason they shouldn’t seek to expand to 20 and have 2 conferences? Is money the sole factor or a nice benefit? AFter all, if the AFL were simply seeking out the cash, we’d have had a night or even twilight GF by now……………….but, that wasn’t the AFL, that was the NRL and the HAL had a night GF.
If the AFL were simply after cash, we’d have had 2 Friday night games and Monday night games by now………..but……….that’s not the AFL, that’s the NRL. And no offence to the NRL – - as pointed out, they have to fight for survival too.

It seems a bit rich to come out and selective attack the AFL for being cash hungry – - when, business realities are certainly that there MUST be a healthy regard for financial benefit. And long term sustainability. Which is why the AFL aren’t actually rushing in with their final signing off – - a lot can change in a 6 month period.

Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment

Maybe you should read some of Frank Lowy’s comments in todays SMH about why the Asina connection is so important, its all about money and media rights. Singleing out AFL is absurd.

Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment

People on this thread might find this article by Simon Hill interesting (in 442):

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=166580&#166580

He is referring to an article in the Daily Telegraph, but then takes a massive swipe at AFL.

sheek said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment

Redb,

Agree calling a sport Australian Football is not a hindrance. After all, it’s OUR game.

General comment. A sport doesn’t have to be popular worldwide for it to thrive in a domestic market. Australia is a perfect example of this.

We’re not called ‘down under’ for nothing. We support our football codes in almost exact reverse to the world trends.

Australian Football is the most popular football code in Australia, despite having little or no meaningful international significance. Rugby League is next, despite having only a marginal world imprint.

They are followed by Rugby Union, which until recently, was our third most popular football code in terms of profile, & second highest world profile after Association Football.

Association Football has always had more participants than Rugby Union, but until recently, had a lower national profile. This has of course, now changed.

On the domestic front, as long as aspiring players are satisfied with the level of remuneration they receive from the sport of their first choice, they’ll continue to support it. Irrespective of international trends.

The AFL & A-League are expanding. Good on them. Whether too soon & too quickly, only time will tell. I admire & applaud their courage, nonetheless.

Shame Rugby Union doesn’t possess the same pioneering spirit. Better for them to stay in the backwoods & be forgotten. Union is one sport hoping its international cousins will bale it out. As always!

Rugby League lacks visionaries & sugar daddies. No big money men in league. Players, despite their love of the game, may vote with their feet, & go chase bigger bucks elsewhere.

Union bucks that is. In places like Japan, France, England & Ireland. Anyway, that’s how I see it, for what it’s worth.

sheek said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment

BTW,

Accept the argument that American football is a more complicated game to learn. However, park ‘gridiron’ is actually quite simple. You don’t need padding to play park ‘gridiron’. And it’s a lot more fun because of more lateral passing, as the yanks call it. Less emphasis on ball security. And defence & offence can be the same players!

So in terms of poor African or Asian kids requiring accessibilty to padding, the argument doesn’t hold. Like Aussie rules, all they need is the football………. open space.

Nonetheless, the principal argument remains. If the yanks can’t sell American football to the world, then the aussies certainly won’t sell Australian football.

oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment

Good points M.C Even thow i dont like money being the main object it still has to be a underlying factor for growth. The 2 conference teams of 10 should be the aim of every code. 20 teams must be the target and easily acheived i might add. If league really wanted to push ahead it could at this moment move to 20 teams. AFL is well on the way to acheiving this with there push into the northern states. Soccer wont take long to get there either. I see no harm whatsoever in having 20 teams for each code. None whatsoever.!
Just one more thing M.C we know ireland has Gaelic football, now if i was the afl and were pushing to get international growth, why not try to start a comp in ireland and use this as a international base. The growth from there can spread. ?

oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment

To be successful at international competition you need a overseas comp. All agree.Soccer has plenty, Union has plenty, league only really has one and has shown can be successful. AFL needs to fast track a comp somewhere for the game to grow. Can be acheived. This is why American football will never take off, there is no other country that has got resources to get the game going outside america, most countries have got the other codes well establised. Aussie rules greatest hurdle is grounds.

Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment

Oikee – just testing… why is 20 teams the magic number? My thinking has always been that it is better to have less teams of higher quality, so that the top players aren’t diluted too much and so that sponsorship, support, infrastructure etc is not spread too thin. My view in Australia is that 14 to 16 is probably the magic number – 2 teams in each of the major cities and 4 to 6 spare to go around elsewhere (or as ‘extras’ in the core cities for each code).

Remember that even at the lower end of 14 teams each, that means a total of 56 professional outfits that the Aust community, sponsoring businesses, administrators etc have to support across the codes.

Where I do agree is that, maybe not across the board but for some things (eg. the earlier rounds of an Aussie FA Cup style comp in football) a conference system should be considered.

On AFL in Ireland why would you want to put your game against its most direct competitor in the world? And remember the gaelic guys think the same way about their game as the Melbournites think about AFL – they are fiercely protective of it. I think the AFL is right in looking to South Africa. For some reason my gut tells me the west coast of the USA and perhaps also South America might be fruitful as well (problem with the latter is that its not such a haven for aussie expats and tourists)

Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment

Pip -

that is a crap comment from Simon Hill,

and the simple fact that to him Gary Ablett and Kevin Sheedy are English soccer players just goes show that he lives in Australia with his head still in England…………if he likes it so much………..then go back there son!!!!

But, as you say, how he turns a Daily Telegraph article into a reason to attack the AFL is astounding,

and, if he is so greatly defensive of Draws – - such that teams can make the A-League finals despite winnings less games than they lose………..because of draws……………….surely then he’d realise that even that the apparent logic to him of the worthiness of a draw is a subjective as the apparent logic of behinds used to help avoid draws (although, I always admit that perhaps behinds ought only be used as a countback to separate a game drawn on goals).

Now – - Gary Linnell who wrote the original article………..way back in September, was potting everybody and anybody,

actually check it out:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24385271-5017479,00.html

he was also potting the NZ Warriors RL team, the NBL, Stephanie Rice, Wayne Bennett, Tennis and Golf administrators and he had a go at soccer fans.

Garry LInnell, the former head of Ch.9 news and current affairs and editor in chief of the Bulletin, is a Sydney media power broker…………….why the heck Simon Hill uses an article by he, from September, given that in November he’s appointed the new editor of the Daily Telegraph………………..it just appears absurd,

Simon Hill has lost it entirely.

and sadly, Pipps, on 442, you see those folk just lapping it up.

True Tah said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment

re: South America – expect big growth in our dealings with them, especially Chile, Australia is developing trade relations there, and looking to sign a double tax agreement as well (until fairly recently we didnt have any with South American nations) and they also have some profile in rugby, albeit overshadowed by the futbol behemoth – they have hosted junior world cups which were attracting crowds of 10k plus.

Re AFL in the US, Im sure its actually bigger than rugby league there, League has about 6 teams on the east coast, Ive heard there are over 30 AFL clubs in the US.

Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment

TT – am I starting to get a feel for what govt agency or area of business you work in? AusTrade perhaps?

Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment

Oikee -

re Ireland, for now, best retained as a friend.

Footy can’t afford to compete head to head with them, and shouldn’t be seen to do so. There’s more to the GAA than just the Gaelic football, and you don’t want to offside what is effectively a broader political/cultural organisation.

(btw – Simon Hill showed his ignorance by taking the IR games seriously!!!)

For now, the most clubs are probably found in America, the most ‘participants’ in PNG and Sth Africa, the best junior structure might even be in PNG and the best access to Aust (AFL) talent pathways so far is by PNG.

THe nationals in PNG are pretty popular (for that fraternity), and with over 10,000 participants, it’s not a completely trivial location. THe participation in RSA needs to be consolidated, and formalised to a greater degree – -but, there is boundless enthusiasm and natural talent for a game like Aust Footy where they’ve been working it………………the ‘broader’ appeal is another thing, but, that will/might come later. As the AFL know, playing an exhibition game alone doesn’t achieve anything……..but, grass roots work seems a better bet.

For now – what IS healthy, is the recognition of overseas footy happening, such that, some recently retired AFL players have been bobbing up playing overseas……..whether Andrew Schauble in one of the Asian countries, or Chris Heffernan and John Ironmonger in the USA………..we’ll probably start hearing of more who have moved OS and got involved in playing/coaching. That’s nice.

btw – northern Europe is still interesting……….the recent locals dominated growth spurts from Sweden to Finland and now Norway, as an add on to Denmark. ALong with the presence in GB and Ireland…….there’s probably some nice potential there of sorts………perhaps a GB vs Continental Europe major fixture each year.

Look – we’ll know more probably in 3 years time should there be a junior International Cup alongside the senior one. If the junior tournament get’s off the ground………..then…………THAT will mean something, the senior tournament as I’ve always said is a really nice curiousity, nice stories around it and encouraging to see………….but, a junior tournament will be ‘gold’.

By Forgetmenot
December 10th 2008 @ 1:57am

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By Forgetmenot December 10th 2008 @ 1:57am

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Ten reasons for poor international AFL growth

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By Forgetmenot
December 10th 2008 @ 1:57am