By Forgetmenot
December 10th 2008 @ 1:57am
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Ten reasons for poor international AFL growth
Faster, higher, stronger. If you don’t recognize it, it is the official motto of the modern Olympic games. But it also describes football perfectly.
The game of AFL football is played at a far faster rate than in previous generations. Players are always striving for that Jesulenko mark, and players are being modeled into muscular athletes that make players of the eighties seem puny.
Football is a game that has everything going for it. But interestingly, it is also the football code which has the smallest global reach.
This article attempts to examine reasons why football has failed to make a large impact outside Australian shores, while other sports have.
Reason 1: It has too many aspects to it
AFL does encompass all three aspects of the Olympic motto (Faster, Higher, Stronger). Are all three of these too many to have in one sport? None of the other sports encompass all three to the extent that AFL does, as identified briefly below (each code given a score out of 10 for each part):
- American Football: Faster (F) 7, Stronger (S) 9, Higher (H) 7
- Association Football: F 7, S 3, H 4
- Football: F 8, S 8, H 9
- Gaelic Football: F 8, S 4, H 5
- Rugby League: F 5, S 9, H 6
- Rugby Union: F 4, S 9, H 7
You can read the identification yourself, or perform your own, but in any analysis it is clear that football does have a large amount of each aspect in it.
Apart from that analysis we can look at the skills used in the different sports and how hard it would be
to learn, watch or use the skills.
The basic skills of AFL are marking, kicking and tackling. They are hard to learn, easy to master, but near impossible to perfect.
As a sport to pick up and start playing, it lurks about halfway between football and union.
The following list ranks the codes from easiest to hardest in playing straight away at a basic level.
1. Soccer
2. Gaelic
3. Rugby League
4. Football
5. American Football
6. Rugby Union
At its most basic level AFL is a very simple game to pick up and learn. Possibly the unique nature of kicking the ball is an obstacle towards people picking up the game and learning it.
The game does have an extraordinary amount of rules. However, again, at a basic level, it is very easy to learn.
After briefly discussing this reason, we can safely say that it has no large effect on preventing the spread of AFL, and if anything the nature of the game should be a catalyst for growth.
Reason 2: Australias comparative low emigration (and high immigration)
Australia is a country where people immigrate too, not emigrate from. As a result there are not high numbers of people spreading the game around the world. American Football has a similar situation, but its large population, economic and political status in the world means that the sport has many other opportunities to grow.
Rugby union and football, both started in Britain, have had the benefit of high emigration numbers in order to grow their respective codes, with the latter taking the most advantage of the situation.
As time goes on, AFL will grow as people emigrate and travel around the world spreading the sport. This reason has had a large influence on the poor comparative growth of the sport overseas.
Australias high immigration levels mean that there is always people coming into the country who have not been exposed to AFL. A large number of these people, if exposed to AFL in the right way, will go back to their previous countries for holidays and spread the game.
Reason 3: Australia is not a cultural hub.
Australia was originally a colony of Britain, and currently the head of state is still the Queen. Britain has colonized many countries, impressing their culture, and with that their sports, upon the natives. This has happened in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia with rugby union, and cricket. It has happened in India and Sri Lanka with cricket.
AFL has had similar chances with smaller countries like Papua New Guinea, Fiji, and Nauru, but the population of these countries means they cannot compete with Australia.
Reason 4: Australia is not an economic hub
While Australia is a first world country, it does not have the money like the United States and England to splash around. This along with the population of the country means that there is not a large amount of money flowing into AFL, which then means that the AFL is not able to spend a lot of money growing the game overseas.
Reason 5: Australia is physically isolated from the rest of the world
“Girt by sea” is a part of Australia’s national anthem. The statement above is very true if the centre of the world is Europe or America. Europe and America are often seen as the centre of the world, and Australia is viewed as the “land Down Under.”
While Australia may be surrounded by sea, planes can still travel easily to countries like New Zealand, Indonesia, and Vietnam. Football should concentrate its growth on Asia, an area which largely does not yet have an entrenched AFL code.
This reason is the reason for the poor growth of AFL in the past, but in the modern day should not be large obstacle.
However, it still is a small obstacle. People are not able to travel from Germany or the USA for a day trip, and watch a game of football. They are able to travel from Hanoi to Brisbane for a day trip.
Reason 6: World War I
Prior to the Great War, AFL was played in many countries such as South Africa, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. BWorld War I came along and took most of the Australian expats and eradicated the game in those areas.
If World War I had not occurred, the sport would no doubt be played in respectable numbers in all of these countries.
Reason 7: Perceived violent nature of the sport
Aussie rules is often known as No Rules Football, overseas. With only one umpire, and a field full of well built and strong men, the state leagues often had a problem with behind the play incidents. This combined with the strong physical nature of the game combined to create a sport that became violent as teams became more aware of tactics.
The introduction of many new rules by the AFL, including more field umpires and video technology, has meant that the game has lost a lot of the violent nature. However, many people have not seen a game of AFL since the introduction of the new rules, and they spread the word that the game is violent.
Reason 8: Football is not popular in Sydney
Sydney is often the incorrect answer to the trivia question, “What is the Capital of Australia?.” This is because when internationals think of Australia, they automatically associate it with Sydney.
AFL is not the most popular sport in Sydney.
Because of this, people coming to Australia often do not hear about AFL. The AFL is changing this scenario through the growth of AFL in Sydney, which could soon yield a second team.
Reason 9: Poor decisions
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for AFL. Because of a continual association with the Victoria, and the fact that there are 10 Victorian AFL teams, the AFL is continually criticized by Victorians for trying to grow the game outside of Victoria.
It would have been much better for AFL if the SANFL, WAFL and VFL, and possibly the TFL and NTFL had each put teams towards a National Football League. This would have prevented Victorians holding the game back.
Reason 10: Community minded
AFL, throughout its 150 year history, has been mostly community focused. Because of this, the people in control of the game have not really focused on growing the game outside its traditional areas. It was only with the persuasion of Allen Aylett that the game was grown into the traditional rugby league areas of NSW and QLD.
In recent years it has been the fans, and expats, pushing the AFL to provide funding to grow the game overseas. The AFL has been pushing the growth of the game in NSW and QLD, and also is heavily involved in the community. The AFL helps football to be the leader in areas such as Aboriginal rights, disadvantaged people, and health and well-being.
This focus has meant that AFL has improved through its history, and the people who love it, love it more.
AFL has gotten better, and as a result, it will be much easier to spread the game overseas.
However, the game could have sacrificed some of this community mindedness in earlier years and focused on international development. The game would be improved by a much larger range of supporters and followers as a result.
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Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:07am | Report comment
LUck too – - –
Dally Messenger for example – - if he did not exist, would RL not exist, or at least not in the form of today in Sydney.
Had Dally Messenger remained in South Melbourne with his relatives, would RL have taken off as it did? Had Dally Messenger done as his brothers did, and stick with the ‘Australian’ game – - would Aust Footy have taken off in Sydney. Quite possibly so.
Why else did supposedly huge numbers flock to see him kick goals from over half way………because, there was an appetite for that sort of action – and RL at that time still packaged goal kicking. Messenger played the game in a manner that an Aust Footballer would, and why else was he pushing for a Aust footy and RL merger (Australeague) if he thought that RL was by far the superior game?
- – - – - had Sydney have been ‘won’ over – - then, some of the following wouldn’t have happened :
Aust Footy has a reasonable history in PNG – and was only really over taken through the ’80s as the VFL was broke and focussed on a national league with a diverse focus across to Perth, Sydney and Brisbane but with the power base in Melb. The NRL, with Murdoch on side, established a greater presence in and around QLD and flowing into PNG.
Aust Footy had a pretty good history in NZ – - and WWI had a major impact – - but, so too, that the Victorian ‘influence’ was more limited to the South Island, and the Sydney influence was greater in the North Island. As it turned out, the North Island grew as the more populous and more ‘influential’ of the islands (climate helps that).
So – - just in our local realm, had Sydney been ‘won over’, and had Australian Footy been able to continue it’s ‘Australasian’ trajectory that HAD been established in the late 1800s – - then, who knows.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment
The pompousness and hyperbole in this article is sickening.
Strenuous objections as I read through a second time:
1. Any attempt at masking totally biased subjective opinions in numerical scales is STRICTLY NOT an analysis. That said I do give this article a “faster-higher-stronger index” of nil nil nil.
2. The purported difficulty of learning AFL skills over any other sports skills is presumptuous the extreme. And breathtakingly arrogant. And simply wrong.
3. The article at times uses the term ‘football properly – as shorthand for the game known as association football or soccer – but mostly uses it in a manner which is becoming rapidly culturally antequated – to describe AFL. I note that this is against the convention on this site and the regular editing decisions of the moderators.
4. Many of the specific points are highly debateable, eg:
- Australia may not be a cultural hub at one level, however a good weight of our expats are industry and media leaders who should be able to give a degree of momentum and ‘market weight’ globally to any sport with merit. Its not as if other things that symbolise Australian culture are not out there in the global consciousness
- Australia is absolutely an economic hub, the 12th biggest economy in the world, a G20 member, a major APEC member, almost equal to all the ASEAN nations put together, and a strategically critical provider of resources to all major powers
- People do not commonly travel from Europe or Asia to the USA to watch baseball yet it has globally known teams, cable TV coverage on major global channels, numerous secondary leagues in various continents, and a world-wide brand awareness. In this world of communications, globalisation, live/streaming content, merchandise, etc bleating about geography is admitting to an abject lack of imagination and endeavour.
- I have never heard this point about WW1 before and my instinct is to be enormously sceptical of it. It defies simple logic.
- Violence in sport cannot possibly be an issue in an age where combat sports (UFC, K1 etc) have seen an unprecendented global rise, where NFL is the largest league by attendance in the world, and where broader media/entertainment options contain frequent graphic violence. Also, if anything, with stricter apcation of rules combined with more apparent diving/milking by AFL players the game is choosing to be softer than it used to be and losing this marketing edge.
- AFL IS popular in Sydney. It is popular as one of 3-4 codes in that market, all of which get 15-30 thousand supporters to a decent game. It doesnt have the unnatural myopic monocultural following that it enjoys in its southern stronghold but most here would argue the problem is with its overemphasis in Melbourne not its underemphasis in Sydney.
- All codes have administrators who make good and bad decisions, and all codes have geographic and historical legacies. Weak argument. And an issue that could be argued to be as much a strength for AFL as a weakness. In fact I can’t see a relevant point in this at all.
- AFL is ‘community minded’ because that is all it has, and also because it has momentum in its marketing hype around this issue (not the least of which, because this differentiates it from the ownership models of football and NRL).
- Finally it is impossible for you to argue that AFL has ‘gotten better’. It has no external reference point against which this could possibly be judged. It is one closed insular professional league, and what is more it has a set of socialist levelling devices between seasons (drafts and salary caps most obviously) which are certtainly not aimed at raising the levels of the best, and rather serve to re-level the comp by making sure the best in fact dont get too far ahead of the worst. One has no basis whatsoever to assess whether the game is improving, stable, or eroding down.
Bottom line for me is that AFL is a great niche sport in the Australian landscape and an idiosyncratic part of the Australian culture which I enjoy. None of what I’ve written above is intended to indicate that I am anti-AFL. But what I am absolutely anti is this kind of article and the types of biases, prejudices, blinkered views and puffery that underpins it.
Reason 11: Because hard core AFL fans do not have a realistic perspective on their game, and live predominantly in environments where they are unlikely to gain that anytime soon.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Millster – I’m most disappointed with you.
3. The article at times uses the term ‘football properly – as shorthand for the game known as association football or soccer – but mostly uses it in a manner which is becoming rapidly culturally antequated – to describe AFL. I note that this is against the convention on this site and the regular editing decisions of the moderators.
Get you hand off it.
That’s childish in the extreme.
This article is on the AFL thread.
WHere FOOTBALL is FOOTBALL. DOn’t like it???? Go crying back to your socca thread.
Talk about inflammatory crap dressed in sheeps clothing………..
we all know that ‘Association Football’ is fine to be called football where it is the A. dominant code or B. only code. In the Olympics it is the ONLY ‘football’ competition, so, that’s fine. But calling it Soccer IS NOT WRONG. And on an AFL thread with references to many different football codes – - there’s certainly nothing wrong with using the CORRECT term “Association Football” or the unambiguous reference of ’soccer’.
The website is in English language – - and freely available – - and by far and away, in the English speaking world, soccer is a more common usage than ‘football’ when referring to Association Football. i.e. USA, Canada, NZ, Australia outside of Sydney, Ireland. compared to England, and maybe Scotland and Wales if you call them English speaking!!!! I know that’s a stretch;-)
—–
btw – violence aspect of AFL WAS a major marketing element (for god knows what reason) back in the 80s. Many in the US via ESPN developed an impression of the game very much based on that. A reasonably inaccurate impression. ANd certainly much less accurate than the modern reality – - however, if you browse through the websites of many of the US Aust football clubs – you’ll note that many have explicit efforts at effectively watering down that outdate ‘image’.
Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Millster,
The article was an attempt at looking at the impact different factors have had, and continue to have on the growth of football internationally. Not all of these reasons have had equal impact.
You make think there are other reasons, as in number 11. I think number 11 could be true, as the people who play the sport often aren’t the best ones to market it in new areas. It is one of the reasons that the AFL has now hired a Sydney based marketing group to market football in Sydney.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Forgetmenot
I hope that Sydney based marketing group isn’t the same one that stuck a Canberra Raiders player celebration picture on Penrith Panthers marketing material!!! They might suffer Sydney football confusion syndrome (SFCS), and stick Clint Bolton instead of Craig Bolton’s face up on a billboard…..
Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Michael C
I was just hoping it wasnt a Melbourne agency with a Sydney office. But yes that SFCS really does need to be diagnosed soon. Perhaps a topic called “The Rest of Australia” in Sydney high schools.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:00am | Report comment
MC – as evidenced by the strength of my opening line, I wasn’t trying to dress anything in sheeps clothing.
Further, the original article was inflamatory to the point of ridiculousness and my response was simply following suit.
On the use of the term football, while its not an issue that I’d die in a ditch over (mainly because I can see very rapid evolution in common parlance in the direction I want, so don’t need to mount some linguistic insurgency), I thoroughly disagree. On a national site, rather than a Melbourne site, most people would assume the word football to mean “soccer”. And more pointedly, again, that is the convention adopted on this particular site and there is frequent evidence of moderator editing consistent with this convention. To not follow it is therefore to make some dogmatic point, and that, I would argue, is what is childish.
On violence, without a strong physical aspect, the AFL is in no-mans-land. Both as a somewhat-fan and as an experienced business person I cannot help but think that it is a grave mistake for the game to try and dey this side of it. I certainly preferred the AFL of the 80’s and early 90’s to the limp-wristed and over-policed stuff we see today (who can forget Ablett clothes-lining Don Pyke in the 92 GF about a second after the first siren went, and some of the biff the year before between Brereton and Jackovich)
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:16am | Report comment
On a positive note MC I am somewhat chuffed that the only thing you seem to disagree with in my long and strong response is the semantic (and to me not top priority) issue of the use of the word ‘football’.
True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Millster,
re: per WW1 – I can talk with some authority on South Africa and what happened there, strictly speaking it was not WW1 which saw the end of Australian Football in South Africa, but the events preceding it.
There were plenty of Australian gold miners who flocked to South Africa in the 1890s, following the discovery of gold at eGoli (or Johannesburg), and many of these would have been young men from Victorian goldfields, and hence there was an AFL presence there, which increased in the Boer War, as Australia sent over 10,000 men to fight there. However the Boer War ultimately proved to be the undoing of Australian Football in South Africa.
Prior to the Boer War, the Afrikaaners had no involvement in South African rugby at all, they were cattle farmers who wanted to get away from Imperial Britain, in fact it was far more popular amongst the black and coloured communities. In concentration camps, the Boer prisoners were introduced to rugby by English, NZ and Australian troops – the Afrikaaners saw a game which they could beat the English at (sort of similar to the reason why the Irish took up rugby) – in 1906, the first Springboks toured Europe with some success, and that was the clincher that really made the Afrikaaner take the game of rugby to heart.
Also I thought you worked for the Fed Govt (Dept of Defence maybe), yet you advise here that you’re an experienced businessman?
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Millster -
I have illustrated before that :
West Australia -Thewest.com.au in WA uses : Australian Rules, Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union
TheAustralian.news.com.au uses : AFL, Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union
South Aust – AdelaideNow (news.com.au\Adelaidenow) uses : AFL, basketball, soccer, cricket
Tasmania – themercury.com.au in Tassie users : AFL and doesn’t list soccer or football, ironically, the little ‘foxsports lives scores and stats central’ has soccer scores next to a ‘football’ label, but for ‘more’ lists ’soccer’ rather than ‘football’.
Sydney – news.com.au/DailyTelegraph uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby, Soccer
Sydney – SMH.com.au uses : AFL, Football, NRL, Union
Brissie – news.com.au/CourierMail uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby Union, Soccer
Canberra – canberratimes.com.au uses : AFL, soccer, Rugby League
GOld Coast – Goldcoast.com.au uses : NRL, AFL, Rugby, Soccer
Melb – TheAge.com.au uses : AFL, soccer, NRL, Union
Melb – news.com.au/heraldsun uses : AFL, soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union
Albury/Wodonga – bordermail.com.au uses : AFL, soccer
ninemsn.com.au uses : AFL, football, rugby league, union
I find it hard to sustain your comment :
On a national site, rather than a Melbourne site, most people would assume the word football to mean “soccer”.
of the above sample, only 2 use ‘football’………..that suggests that outside of the SMH and a specific sydney agenda reflected in the SYdney driven ninemsn.com.au as well – - that you’re actually self defeating………….for a national site, the use of ’soccer’ is actually MOST appropriate.
btw – editorial input thus far HAS been somewhat disappointing, and I too noticed that they had either missed the boat on this article (much to you apparent disappointing ………….are you writing a complaint??), or, are relaxing their stance on sports specific threads.
————-
look, I don’t mind a sports interview talking to a Rugby player who states “I’m really enjoying my football at the moment”. What, do you want the interview to correct him “THat’d be ‘rugby’, mate, not ‘football’”????
That my dear sir is childish.
SO, keep this arcane crusade to the ’soccer’ (wrongly titled ‘football’) tab.
If theRoar wishes, they can continue on the path that they have trod a little – - and if they edit ‘football’ on the AFL thread everytime to ‘AFL’, they’ll very quickly end up being nationally boycotted by anyone with an AFL interest……(although, they haven’t proven overly popular thus far at any rate!!!).
Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment
If theRoar wishes, they can continue on the path that they have trod a little – - and if they edit ‘football’ on the AFL thread everytime to ‘AFL’, they’ll very quickly end up being nationally boycotted by anyone with an AFL interest……(although, they haven’t proven overly popular thus far at any rate!!!).
Funny you should say that Michael C. My whole article has been edited by The Roar editors. Every single instance where you see football referred to as AFL has been editied.
Eg
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for AFL.
edited from
The AFL was started from an expanded VFL and has become the world governing body for football.
John Ryan said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Why should Millster only comment on Football threads, you and your mates seem to think you have the god given right to comment, denigrate every one else,so if that,s what you want stick to AFL alone and the rest wont bother with you,though why they do I don,t know
Ronnie from Lonnie said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment
So Forgetmenot, what would be the global ranking by popularity, strength of supporter numbers, market size be? Probably::
1. Football/Soccer
2. Rugby Union
3. American football (solely on the strength of a US population of 300m)
4. Rugby League
5. Australian
6. Gaelic
————-
7. Canadian football? (I’ve heard this actually exists!)
Isolation has probably protected Oz football just has much as it has prevented it’s growth.
Also, Australia didn’t have an empire whereas Britain (England) did. Footballs’ simple rules, style of play and less demanding physical requirements probably explain why football prospered over sports like rugby and cricket. Quite interesting how many football clubs in Sth. America and Europe started out as Football and Cricket Clubs.
An interesting footnote: on ABC Radio Grandstand last year an academic who has researched the history of football in Oz revealed Australian football was actually growing strongly in NSW … that is until local councils (presumably under pressure) implemented a 30-year limitation on the size of football grounds in NSW so as to protect Rugby and limit the growth of Australian football. Growth was stymied. Reminds me a bit of HAL’s exclusion from FTA TV.
This would’ve been about the 1880’s. I don’t remember all the facts and have researched this matter no further. I do remember it said there were invitational games played between NSW rugby and Vic. Aust. football teams in both states. It seems Aust. football went down well with the New South Welshmen.
For mine, these are some of the dampners to Australian football’s global growth (mostly economic):
*Greater physicality (AFL mid-season injury lists look like WW1 casualty roll calls – meaning well-paid players are out of action)
*Longer playing lists mean larger wage bills
*Predominance of other football codes with more established market positions
*Australia’s relative geographic isolation to larger markets
*Only one top-tier league that can be taken to market with a running time of 6 months only. So, even though kiddies are being introduced to the sport, the heroes they can look up to live 1000’s of kms away at the bottom of the world, playing for only 6 months, and playing for clubs with very little geographic relevance.
Clutch Cable said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
“Poor” is a bit light don’t you think? 150 years and it’s yet to expand in a meaningful way in a single country other than Australia.
Even within Australia it’s going to have to pay through the nose to get a second team up and running in Australia’s biggest city.
I wouldn’t call that poor, I’d call it a complete and abject failure.
Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment
CC
You ought to check out this wikipedia article on football crowds in Australia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Australian_football_code_crowds
to see how that abject failure is doing in Australia.
Are you Australian?
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment
MC – As I said, fell free to continue your linguistic resistance movement. I’m not too fussed.
TT – interesting history re AFL in South Africa. Though I have mixed feelings about how “in South Africa” you can call that. For example I imagine a number of AFL balls are being kicked around between the diggers in Afghanistan and Iraq currently, and also a few in the parks of Dubai and Abu Dhabi with Aussie civilian expats. But that does not equate to AFL having any meaningful presence in the Middle-East.
TT again – if you want to write me an email I can cover off my career history
But in short it started in the private sector, then saw me in Fed Govt for a long period, and is now back in a senior strategic role on the private side. You’re in the right ballpark vis-a-vis portfolio area too.
Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Pip
Are you saying its unAustralian not to support AFL? If thats the case then about 2/3s of the population are unAustralian?
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 10:45am | Report comment
pass for now.
Redb
Clutch Cable said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
“Are you Australian?”
Yep, and I live in an Australian city with no AFL team and more registered football players than AFL, Union and League combined.
I’ve no doubt that AFL does remarkably well in Australia, but this article isn’t about AFL in Australia, it’s about AFL internationally and the fact that it’s the ‘highest, strongest and fastest’ sport known to man apparently.
Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Dave
We can get stuck into Skyhooks for not making it big overseas, or we can say, what a great Australian band – singing about quintessentially Australian themes – and be more than happy about that.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Dave,
What I think Pip is alluding to is some, I stress some, migrants to this country tend to put down anything Australian, AFL fits with that category.
Redb
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Redb -
and Holdens…………….
……..hang on, how many of them are still made in Australia……….
….but, y’know, since people overseas invented ‘cars’, apparently, ONLY imported ‘cars’ can be called ‘cars’, and should we endeavour to refer to a locally produced Holden as a ‘car’, theRoar editors are likely to edit it back to ‘Holden’……………….crickey, it’s like working at the ABC!!!
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I mostly agree with RFL’s summary.
I think in the last 2 years (barely that), we are starting to see the AFL put in a more concerted effort to grow the game internationally. It will take time, but it’s great to see the game being played anywhere else in the world, we don’t have to get into a pissing match with other football code fans here.
Our game is ours, there’s is someones elses if they are in Australia.
Redb
Pippinu said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Redb
I can’t really criticise migrants – being the son of migrants!
But as Dave points out – a large swathe of the Australian population has a deep seated hatred of Australian Football – and I wouldn’t have thought that it’s because they are migrants.
I think it’s a very complicated sociological phenomenon: a significant minority of Australians hating their very own game.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Pip,
I stressed ’some’ migrants, trying not to generalise. Besides I know and and see plenty of migrants who love their AFL footy. You see quite a few Hawthorn scarves around new folk to Melbourne. If they like the game they will pick a winner first, that’s why we’ve got to get the Bullies and Dons back up to the top.
cheers
Redb
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 11:53am | Report comment
If you ask why some people hate AFL
Here’s one reason
It’s because people advertise the game to be the Australian game and that’s it’s unAustralian to not like AFL. That somehow not liking the game is considered unpatriotic and something really strange and deviant.
That Game that made Australia ad. Some people find it clever and funny (myself included). Other people found it offensive that a sport can take ownership to the concept of being Australian.
I always considered that the divide of people who hate AFL is the similar divide between mainstream people and alternative people. People who resent pressure of conforming to society will tend to not like AFL.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
dasilva,
With respect this phenomen was happening well before Sept 2008 when that Ad was run and also it is a fact that it is the Australian game.
It’s been known as Australian Rules or Australian football for a very very long time. Why should there be a cringe factor unless it’s felt by those who dislike the game. Who has the problem exactly?
Redb
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
people from a certain region became very divisive in their sports – - i.e the rugby schism and allied issues pertaining to RU and RL during times of war – - seems to have created a culture of ‘hatred’ over the journey.
A culture of ambivolence is one thing, hatred is quite another.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
dasilva,
Please find me the advertisement where it says it is unAustralian not to like AFL. The psychology of this is intruiging.
Redb
Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Redb Pip das
l enjoy AFL, having played it and been a club member for 5-6 years. l now enjoy another sport more, l dont hate football but l do agree with Das when he talks about some AFL people claim you are unAustralian if you dont like AFL?? That is more a turn off than any other aspect. AFL didnt make Australia but it is an integral part of society in the Southern states.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
reasons for more ‘modern’ failure of Aust footy overseas -
A. nobody was actually TRYING. i.e. most international footy clubs were entirely expats and weren’t worried about ‘growing the game’, weren’t focussed upon attracting locals. Let alone attempting to develop juniors or run auskick style programs.
B. the VFL/AFL was NOT focussed on international growth. Only token gestures of playing the odd ‘exhibition’ game since the mid ’80s. But, a concerted effort would have played regular games in Tokyo, or in Canada, or the US, but, they’ve flitted around with clearly no strategy in mind. And let PNG wither in the meantime.
C. inability to provide support/networking. THe pre-internet age really was an impossible ask for the game to grow on the other side of the world. That’s changing.
D. pre TV coverage – - prior to ESPN, no one overseas would have known a single thing about the game (without a direct link). Only once ESPN started carrying the game, did US folk start noticing it. Alas, in the main, no clubs existed to join, the internet made it impossible to find existing ones.
E. no intended promotion, no pathway
———–
now, we have increasing coverage (esp via Setanta, Mhz, and via the internet), we have increasing numbers of clubs both initiated primarily by expats and those primarily by locals, we have juniors, we have games played with zero expats players, coaching, officiating. We have internet networking, we have support offered globally in an instant. We have national leagues, continental associations, we have international competitions in mens,womens and juniors. We have international rookies, and have talent pathways opening up at very least for kids from PNG as the trail blazers, hopefully ahead of Sth Af and NZ at very least.
We just don’t have a whole lot of ovals.
Minor point.
So – - in all respects – there’s no REAL way other than via much luck that the game could grow and sustain previously. Now adays, a little less luck is required.
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Redb
I only used the ad as an example. It’s the attitude that’s its an Australian game that some people don’t like (whose those people, generally people who don’t like AFL, fans of other sports eg Football etc). Generally a response that people make is this. I’m Australian, I don’t like AFL, does that make me less Australian. I guess bit similar to Clutch Cable response.
About migrants – I don’t believe migrants put down what is “Australian”. It’s just that the migrants believe that they can be Australian without following the stereotypes of what it is to be Australian (eg, going to watch AFL, Cricket etc). Migrants are Australian in a multicultural and diverse sense but not in a monocultural set values and interest. Perhaps a minority of the migrants ended up hating and resenting the “traditional or stereotypical aussie culture’ but i would think the main thing is that migrant choose to be different and that being Australian is to accept difference to the norm.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Dave,
When I talk about ’some’ migrants not liking the Australian game I beleive it comes down to a cultural level, footy is not part of their culture and is rejected. Some migrants (I know Brits who have been here for 40 years) dislike the game becuase it is Australian, they sometimes are people who support anyone else who is playing Australia in cricket for example or other interntational sports and actively like to see Australia lose.
There is a cultural factor that pervades sport.
Redb
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
RedB
There is no advertisement that say it is unaustralian to not like AFL. However to not like AFL is to be different. Being different to the norm in any factor of life can lead to annoying social problems. It doesn’t have to be AFL, pick people who don’t like mainstream music or mainstream TV. They will always be a fraction of those people who ended up hating or resenting what is considered to be normal.
True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Cheers Millster, sounds a bit similar to your truly, not same portfolio of course.
Das, I can throw up an example which is sort of inline with what Redb is saying, I went to school with plenty of young men of Yugoslav extraction, with the correct physiques to play rugby, but their parents pretty much said futbol is all you can play after school I remember talking to a few of them, and they said their biggest regret wasnt giving rugby or AFL a crack, if only for one season.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
this ‘attitude’ – -
starting to sound like a “it’s the vibe” type argument.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
das,
…..speaking of music, if you liked Flock of Seagulls your secret is safe with me.
Redb
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
Truh Tah
Migrants sometimes talk about accepting difference and multiculturalism but sometimes have trouble of accepting difference within their own culture, community or society. I know that from personal experience. I don’t believe it’s the hatred of Australian culture but more like an ultra protectiveness of their own culture which I equally resent as well.
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot,
do you have anything against the name “Marn Grook” ? I would embrace it a lot more if you call it by the indigenous name.. That surly would be more fitting if you wish to play it internationally as Football is the round ball game …
Pippi,
I would have thought we were all Australians.. Are you an Australian ….. ?
Millster,
you’re on the money as per usual and I love reading your posts.. I can’t add to what you write it’s always near perfect … And to say this is an arrogant article not worth contributing to … A delusionary one at that….
TT,
are you suggesting that the gold miners from Australia took a Sherrin under their arm pits wherever they went .. I would think that the gold miners were more intent to dig for gold then to waste precious time kicking a stuffed possum around the gold fields.. get real…
Das,
you are right the AFL is not the Australian national game .. end of story… Born in Victoria…
Marn Gook is the indigenous name and that is what it should be called on the tab not AFL
MC,
the revolution has begun and we intend to reclaim our rightful name Football back .. By all means call your game what ever you wish; but in your heart you know your game is “Melbourne Rules”… (Victorian) I like Victorian Marn Grook (Grooky)
An emoticon especially for you….
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
bare with me on this one:
The reality is – - the ability to even secure and spread Aust Footy within Australia was limited for a long time by certain phenomena -
the massive loss of young men in WW1 and WW11 meant that ‘natural’ population growth was limited, much of the population growth was therefore migration……..of people from countries that especially by WWII had developed a domestic football culture (whether, soccer, or rugby or other variants).
That in the strongest states, the game has withstood this, absorbed it and flourished is interesting – - RL likewise. Probably two very important ‘assimilation’ tools.
Now – - less so, especially in the RL states where soccer is weaving it’s web. How strong an assimilation tool is it just yet? Given that the ethnic blighted NSL is just 5 yeas past………..one would say still not a very mature assimilation tool.
and for years – the attitude associated with soccer even amongst soccer folk is to put down the local standard and cast their eyes abroad.
Still now – Michael Lynch (a pommie writing for Fairfax) writes Of course the standard could — and will — improve as the game becomes more professional, as players play more games, as the best youngsters come through the national youth league and we (hopefully) get new coaches from other parts of the world to inject fresh ideas and styles.
The ‘un-Australian’ ‘vibe’ that often permeates thru the soccer fraternity is that overseas is better.
That’s not necessarily so.
And, the thing that has annoyed Aust footy advocates is that it’s one thing for soccer folk to put down the standard of their own game relative to ‘back home’……….and fair enough in part because soccer was never ‘number 1′ in Aust whilst it was in their homeland- – - but to then knock our local product as being deficient as well………….now that’s like suggesting that Skyhooks and Cold Chisel and the Mentals were no good because they never performed on the ‘world stage’ (Euro Vision). Well, quite obviously, we can all accept that the Australian rock scene was far superior to the vast number of countries around the world – - and we’ve even leant some bi-linguals to other countries as well.
(something about the isolation in Australia resulting in a ‘have a go’ attitude, and the opportunities to find a stage at a pub and do a gig – - – so, normal metric comparision of populaiton size didn’t really come into it at all.)
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
KB -
whose rightful name?
True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
KB,
from what I understand, marngrook was from a language spoken in Victoria.
In the Tiwi Islands, the game would not be called marngrook, the Tiwi people speak a language differant to that spoken in Victoria, differant to that spoken in central Australia, etc, in fact there were over a hundred languages spoken by the indigeonous Australians at the time of European settlement.
Towser said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Michael C
If you mean by assimilation what I once saw at Disneyland you can shove it where the sun dont shine.
The scene is set,its twilight time in front of the Enchanted castle. A laser show begins. Its a Peter Pan theme & suddenly Tinkerbell appears above the Enchanted castle , red white & blue sparks surround her. The Star -Spangled Banner starts up.
Now in front of me a family of Asian background ,who had been chattering away in what I took to be Vietnamese, get a glazed look in their eye & their right hands are placed over their hearts. Whats more their singing the SSB & looking tenderly to the sky & the darting figure of the fairy from never never land Tinkerbell.
Gimme a break.
Assimilation shove it.
Dave said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
MC
“(hopefully) get new coaches from other parts of the world to inject fresh ideas and styles.
The ‘un-Australian’ ‘vibe’ that often permeates thru the soccer fraternity is that overseas is better.”
But doesnt the same happen in AFL. Leigh Matthews is not a Queenslander yet he was hired by BB…where is the difference? Ron Barassi and Paul Roos, are they from Sydenee? Then same thing again.
When developing and trying to improve a sport/team you go to the masters, those that have the expertise at the highest possible level…if that means they are not of the preferred nationality so be it. They will train a local who will hopefully take over or train more locals. Cannot see a problem there.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Dave –
oh my god, you’re harking back to pre-federation era are you? Last time I look you didn’t need a passport to cross into QLD let alone change of currency. (just joking, that’s the alternate tact to your L.Matthews point).
Look – I’m not saying overseas coaches aren’t required or useful – - the reality though is just because soccer in Australia is 2nd rate – - doesn’t mean that all things are…………and it’s that latter point that seems to have so often come from some.
Towser -
I certainly don’t ever mean anything like an American model!!!
TT -
and Gangajang………….with their song “Hundreds of languages”,………….I bought the cd single………….perhaps me and 37 others.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
I’ve returned from a lunch on the first year of Rudd foreign policy, and am surprised that anyone found an hour of things to say on that subject.
So in a sense I’m glad to be back to this debate even though it started with an article that I despise and (obvioulsy) totally reject.
On the interesting issue of hating ‘things Australian’…. my 2 cents worth being half Aussie and half French… I hope I put this right as it could be sensitive… here goes…
There is the image of Australia of which we can be proud – the educated, confident, perhaps a touch anti-authoritarian, creative Australia that defies its geography and that weaves its own part in the world, including cultural symbols despite our young age and essentially ‘imported’ anglo-saxon tradition.
Then there is the “Ocker” Australia made up of entrail-filled meat pies, inch-think vegemite, also inch-thick zinc cream, drunkenness in public throughout the world, xenophobic views towards other cultures, and an attitude that there is no heaven like home (which is frankly bizarre to the other 5.9 billion people on the planet when home is largely an uninhabitable desert island full of poisonous things stuck on the arse end of the world).
To some like me AFL is a cultural symbol of Australia that fits into the former, and can be a positive thing. To some it fits into the latter (and calls, such as the one in the original post, that football has “everything going for it” contributes to the broader view of the myopic and deluded ocker red-neck). And added to that is always the underlying feeling, with some justification, that Australia has chosen to ‘wimp out’ of participation in the global sports and to invent its own funny little game in order to not have to match it with the big boys. I don’t agree, but nevertheless its not hard to see how such a view can be taken. Finally, there is the demographics. “Footy” is a white middle class boy’s game, with the one significant (and praise-worthy) exception being prominent involvement of aboriginal players. Its getting better but its heart is still not that inclusive.
Bottom line is that I can fully understand that some people do not want to be stereotypical Australians; for being one is not necessarily a good thing in the cold harsh light of day. And insofar as AFL is associated symbolically with that “ocker” grab-bag of pursuits, it suffers some negaitivity in kind. Let me be 100% clear on this – its not that migrants, or anyone, hate Australia. Its that they hate the ugly caricature of Australia.
PS: I agree that “the game that made Australia” ad is not a major cause. But it is seriously cringeworthy, and should have been rejected by AFL and non-AFL types alike.
Newbie said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Half French? Thought M’s posts smelled funny.
Go back to lunch.
Redb said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
Millster,
Your just reinforcing stereotypes. All socio-economic groups, sexes, races and age groups attend AFL games. Again the Ad is only cringeworthy if the perception already exists in your head that it must be unAustralian to dislike AFL. Personally I thought the Ad pretty amateurish and uninspiring – but that is a creative criticism not becuase it made me feel cringeworthy.
True Australian football fans have pride in our game and its origins, I pity those who don’t have the connection. Certainly, the traditions of AFL clubs are rich and socially cohesive.
Redb
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Millster -
Finally, there is the demographics. “Footy” is a white middle class boy’s game
take your Sydney hat off there for a minute.
In footy states it’s be multi cultural and across all socia economic groups for a very long time.
btw – I don’t know anyone who goes in for inch thick vegemite………….you only do that when trying to make an American gag but suggesting that that is how it’s done and presenting it to him to eat.
- – - – -
it is possible to be middle ground – -
because, footy is symbolic of :
proactivity – - circa 1850s onwards – not waiting on England – but, doing it for ourselves,
for creativity? well, at least initiative
for independance – - resisted just ‘falling in line’ with other countries (and even states who had chosen to just ‘fall in line’)
remember, footys heart is in Melbourne which for a long time was considered our more cosmipolitan city, more cultured worldly city – the home of theatre, fashion, arts, the home of the tennis open (back to the Kooyong years), the original GPs at Albert Park in the Brabham era……..
It was hardly some two bit local yokel town that was thumbing it’s nose at the world. And so many of the migrants who came her chose NOT to involve themselves with the many ethnic based soccer teams and DID involve themselves with the ’skips’.
btw – I think of my parents seeing a little community of Dutch folk up in East Gippsland and opting NOT to live anywhere near them…………because, they preferred even the ’skips’ to a ‘home away from home ethnic community’.
You’ve tried to paint it B&W. It ain’t.
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Redb -
uncreative, uninspiring and not really presenting the image of Aust Footy we’d prefer,
tongue in cheek and Bill Hunter………..nah…………we’ve moved beyond that.
Personally, I’d've preferred something a little more cosmopolitan,
but, obviously the tongue in cheek aspect was taken a little too literally by some.
Which’d be akin to believing a political satirist was actually stating their true political beliefs rather than displaying an ability to make fun of anyone.
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Millster
As much as I don’t like watching AFL. AFL certainly has done well with racial integration. In fact I find that they do a better job attracting the 2nd generation Vietnamese Asian community then Football does. I can see that it’s not going to be too long until you’ll see a professional Australian-Vietnamese AFL player.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
MC – I will concede upon a re-read of my words that yes it is a bit B&W. Though aren’t we all in debating here… the very concept of this site is antithetic to the notion of balanced multi-dimensional views
RedB – other people have other equally or more worth connections and don’t need your pity. That was a bizarre line to write.
True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
dasilva
there has been an Australian-Asian guy playing in the AFL – Peter Bell, he was adopted from Korea, his biological parents were a US servicemen and a Korean woman, I dont know what its like now, but in Korea, there used to be a real stigma about mixed race children. I think he used to play for the Dockers.
And Millster, I dont think too many Collingwood supporters would take it kindy if you referred to them as middle class…Australian Football is not my sport of choice, but it is a hell of a lot more inclusive than my game, and it engages with its community far better than any other sport here.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
TT – Its hard to get a cultural identity for AFL in Victoria, SA and WA due to it being such a dominant mono-culture there. One can only draw conclusions as to what its natural demographic is in those states where it does not enjoy monopoly saturation and where sports consumers can segment themselves through their choices in those markets.
Koala Bear said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
TT,
Yes, however, it was the modern indigenous folk who have named the game Marn Grook and you or I should not deny them their right of a general consensus to what the name should be.. Leave it to the indigenous folk to decide.. I have no reason to object to their decision of their chosen name Marn Grook .. You will find that they are all in full agreement with it, as they are with the indigenous flag .. If you need to find out the English definition of the name/words “Marn Grook” you will learn that it means “Man Ball”.. Google Wiki and search Tom Wills and see links then read…
~~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
True Tah
That’s good to hear.
There’s also a football player Alan Davidson who represent Australia with distinction in the 80’s. He was a half japanese half Australian Servicemen. Reading his story there was a lot of stigma in both Australia and Japan in terms of mixed race children (especially due to post WWII tensions) and that the marriage between his parents has come in lots of opposition from their family from both sides.
Unfortunately there hasn’t been any more Australian-Asian players since representing the Socceroos.
To be honest I think at least with the Vietnamese community here in Adelaide, they are more likely to produce an AFL player then an A-league player.
True Tah said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
dasilva
former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones was also the product of such a union (Aust. army dad, Japanese mum).
Michael C said | December 10th 2008 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Flat out presently, unable to contribute.
Millster said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
Note to Roar moderators – and its a thought not only about this article but about many that I’ve read in the past year.
Just as there is a ‘Cheers’ button there should also be a ‘Boo’ button for each posted article.
Currently one can either support someone’s writing or remain silently neutral. I’d like the option of seeing how many people actively disagree, as well as those that actively agree.
Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Ronnie from Lonnie,
I would perhaps even place American Football number 2 on that list. And football could arguably be second last ahead of Canadian Football.
Canadian football simply has a few different rules than American Football.
Koala Bear,
In terms of International growth football does need a new name. It should respect the names already used in countries (hint hint). Marn Grook is an option, but may be hard to teach people in different languages, There is actually a whole thread about this over at BigFooty, under the International tab.
Other ideas are; Sherrin, footy, bigfooty, ovalball etc.
In response to everyone else discussing footballs role in Aussie culture. It is seen as a purely Australian thing to do, but the AFL is, as football always has done, trying to attract new arrivals to the game. It is part of the Australian psyche to embrace new arrivals and teach them about Australia, which is perhaps one of the reasons Australians feel so offended when new arrivals keep to themselves. THey feel that immigrants staying in their own communities is a middle finger to the Aussie Culture.
Forgetmenot said | December 10th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Millster,
I agree with the boo button. Perhaps it would feel like a put down to some people though. (Imagine if an article had 10 boos and 2 cheers!!).
dasilva said | December 10th 2008 @ 6:59pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot
although I’m no fan of migrants isolating themselves from the rest of society. However the fact is that it’s human nature that you will hang out, become friends with, marry people who you are similar with, Share similar interest and share similar values. They will always be some degree with immigrants hanging out with there “own kind”. As long as they don’t isolate themselves and be open to the different things Australia has to offer then it’s not really a problem.
The migrants will eventually assimilate to Australian society but they’ll do it in there own way (and sometimes in there own time). They will incorporate some mainstream Australian value but will reject others and perhaps Australian society and culture will diversify and change as well
bozo said | December 10th 2008 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
A game centred on Melbourne and its nearest relative in Ireland. Says it all for me. Move on, there is a big world out there.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Millster -
I’m confused about your notion of ‘natural demographic’.
And that you seem to believe that there MUST be one.
The natural demographic if you will is a small country town where EVERYBODY is involved in the footy/netball club – - the entire town. Because, unlike the smaller sided games (even soccer and cricket), the footy club requires all hands on deck – - the greatest variance is seniors and reserves, but, in the main the ressies are for the older guys, some young kids up from the thirds, and often the exchange student and the couple of ‘new comers’ from non footballing backgrounds who help make up the numbers and engage with the community.
Is that a ‘natural demographic’ for you??? Because, that’s what I saw in country regions as I grew up.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:47am | Report comment
Millster,
Funny how you post your boo button request on an AFL thread.
Long live footy and may it grow.
Redb
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:52am | Report comment
TT –
Peter Bell, started at Freo in their first year, managed a couple of games early. Got cut. Got picked up by North Melbourne, played in 2 premierships for us, was a potential future captain, went back to Freo (and Perth – family etc), captained them. Studied, became a lawyer and now is listed as a CEO of some organisation (but I heard the other day he’s also a stay at home dad?? presently).
Also, Collingwood (then Melbourne) had a guy Danny Seow played probably 30 odd games over about 5 years back in the late ’80s. Played 18 games for 8 goals at Coll in 86 and 87, not sure what he did at Melb after that.
That’s about it for the ‘modern era’.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:45am | Report comment
MC – no its not a natural demographic. Its a monopoly. Further, in the small town context, its one borne more of the desire for social cohesion and participation than of a choice between codes. If the town played football or one of the rugbies, or had a friday night volleyball game in the sand-pit, it would be all hands on deck too.
Redb – as I said I first thought this a while back, not in relation to this thread, and in fact I think it was a Gruffalo post on League that first made me want to actively boo. However, of course, I’d love to be able to boo this one too.
Forgetmenot – what is this “Aussie culture” that the migrants are giving a middle finger to? And even if you could pin it down, is AFL core to that ‘Australian culture’? Is AFL as symbolically Australian as say sumo or kendo is Japanese? I don’t think so.
True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Millster
Im sure these small towns play futbol as well, who knows some of them might even have rugby teams.
At one stage or another, I guess that these towns chose AFL as their game – its not strictly a southern Australian thing, look at rugby league in the north of England where it is fanatically followed in small towns in an area where futbol is the giant swallowing up all before it, or southwest France, where it is rugby union that garners the passion.
Im sure there are plenty of other examples, but to me what it seems your suggesting is that AFL is not, based on natural demographics, the game of choice for towns in southern Australia…Ihow would you propose to test otherwise?
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:20am | Report comment
TT- no I’m certainly not going that far in my argument and of course I realise the great level of natural support for AFL in many towns.
But I also realise that in relatively socially small and activity-poor environments, people will be motivated to join in pretty much anything. This indeed has been my own experience from time to time when I have spent periods in smaller or more remote places throughout my studies and career.
So I’m not denying a natural affinity for AFL in those places. I’m just saying that its methodologically impossible to determine what the level of support would be, and how it would segment out, in those communities were they in different circumstances. There is certainly interest and participation in AFL in those places. But its natural level may be amplified by some contextual factors.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Ah, but, Millster -
the natural demographic originally was cricketers, but, they spread it to the workers and the school kids.
The natural demographic of Rugby Union was the (not so) ‘Public’ schools of England.
Soccer likewise, especially the very much well to do Etonians and Cambridge Uni.
But – -take your European cap off for a minute – - transplant yourself to Melbourne circa 1860. Nudging 100,000 population. A minimum of transport options……….(interesting story recently about the Mornington Footy ’shipwreck’….and that was just on the bay!!).
What you term ‘monopoly’ as if it is forced upon the people was infact a monopoly adopted and evolved BY the people. Therefore, the culture was inclusive from the outset – therefore there was no distinct ‘natural demographic’.
(and, perhaps in taking off your European Cap, you need to take off your Sydney cap as well).
You seem to want to pigeon hole a little too much.
Footy appeals across the board – - however, the marketing into a new/growth market can perhaps be misleading – - as you’ve claimed it to be a ‘middle class white boy’ game…………which is far from the truth (although, these days with the expectations of the community, re behaviour etc, both NRL and AFL are suffering because people seem to expect a higher standard of behaviour from a back-flanker than they do from Lawyers, Politicians or ruddy CEO’s – - – the world has gone mad – - – and this MAY actually force recruitment to err towards middle class………………and that’s blatantly unfair. Sports is supposed to provide opportunities they may not otherwise be financially available.)
re. all hands on deck – - NO. Quite wrong. Basketball is the best example. I played a couple of years of basketball before playing footy. Basketball was nothing compared to footy because in the main the teams were very much temporary social type sides rather than permanent community sides.
Even the community club that is the cricket club, because the 4 teams (as it was down my way, A-D grades) would go off on their merry way playing at different grounds around the district and often against different teams, and the juniors would often have a totally different draw as well and be finished their morning games – - – there was no BRINGING together of the community.
So – -sport alone didn’t do it. There’s nothing like the footy/netball day at the local recreation reserves – alas though, the great benefit of bringing so many people together is on the flip side the great danger that too soon a small town in decline can’t make up the numbers.
That need of numbers means that in a multi code town, a soccer side is easier to ‘field’ than a footy side, let alone 1s and 2s.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Bozo -
the nearest relative to Aust Footy is NOT Gaelic. The similarities are more co-incidental.
Re the family tree, Gaelic is more a 2nd cousin.
Footy is much more closely related to Rugby and Soccer – they have some common heritage back to England. Certainly Sean Fagan still insists the first games of footy in Melb were games of Rugby – -(well, they were in reality a mix of everything, ‘handling’ games and ‘dribbling games’ and the dissent made clear the nead for a common set of rules).
The common set of rules, just as in England, cross referenced the available rules of various ‘public’ schools, such as Eton, Rugby, Harrow, and colleges like Cambridge.
There are 2 rules still in Aust Footy that no longer exist in Association Football but that were in the original rules of the London FA back in 1863. They are the ‘fair catch’ and no x-bar allowing a goal at whatever height to be awarded. As it is though, the Melb rules were penned first…………but, where not a parent to the London rules, both the London Rules and the Melb Rules have effectively multiple ‘parents’…………………..rather like a footballing village to create a footballing ‘child’.
And had the Rugby codes not evolved themselves in a strange way – there might be a great ease of identifying the closer ‘footballing genetic’ relationship. Remember, kicking goals used to be the ‘primary score’ in Rugby (before they started awarding points for a try because they weren’t able to kick enough goals!!!). A ‘fair catch’ was in the RU rules for a long, long time.
Rugby and soccer have, a little like the school of Rugby and school of Eton football codes – - seemed to react against each other…………they seem to seek to accentuate the differences sometimes. Rather like deliberately breeding certain characteristics into or out of a dog or rose.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Millster -
re larger towns…………there’s been no real shortage of choice in Ade, Perth and Melbourne…….our migrants were bringing soccer, and the british heritage of so many could not be denied. There was no stopping people so inclined to attempt to bring these sports to a greater level to schools (especially those that seem MORE to fit with the supposed ‘natural demographic’ of certain sports).
They never did catch on.
We’re the killed off in similar ways to Aust Footy in Sydney circa 1900-1910? Where pure choice didn’t entirely dictate the outcomes?
and where choice wasn’t purely on the better game to play/watch but perhaps the better game to tour England and generate revenue via such.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
MC – the word “better” is fraught with value judgements and subjectivity….
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Millster
I have to admit that I’m struggling to follow your argument about demographics.
There appears to be an element of: forgive them Lord, for they know not what they are doing.
Let’s take a central Victorian town like Shepparton, that boasts at least two top football clubs in that area’s country league. Both clubs, as it happens, have netball teams, such that one whole day of the weekend is dedicated to playing football and netball and/or watching, supporting, assisting the same, and hundreds of families are basically involved across the town and surrounding disctricts.
I know for a fact that Shepparton has a high number of Italian migrants, and more recently others from diverse places. I’m confident that soccer has been played there for decades – but I can promise you that the local soccer matches will not have the same level of community support and involvement as the local footy/netball games, and, that stacks of Italian families have chosen to get behind the footy clubs rather than the soccer clubs for whatever reason. As far back as the early 70s I knew stacks of Italian farming families who were involved in the local footy clubs one way or the other.
Who can say what the reason is? But I don’t think it was a monopoly situation.
You have an economics background – you understand consumer sovereignty – isn’t it just a simple matter of offering the product and the market deciding? In Australia, we have a diversity of product offerings, more than any other place on Earth except for maybe the US – yet people keep coming up with this Communist argument that there should only be one product offering and zero choice.’
You – of all people!!
True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Pip
Millster is anything but a socialist, if his views on salary caps are anything to go by…funnily he is half-French, a nation which if anything has adopted socialistic policies to keep French farmers in business.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I have to mention this as it happened this morning, i was waiting for my dad at the bank, across the road was a group of childeren on a school outing with “teachers”. As they crossed the road (8 year olds) i noticed that their were 4 sudanise kids in the pack, one near the front, a teacher holding ones hand and another 2 migling with others towards the back. Now this is where the intergration starts. Its generational and happens with the children. Hence why i keep saying we need all codes at schools, we need to be able to give the kiddies choice and get rid off the preduious and discrimanation. If we cant acheive this then in 50 years we will still be having these arguments. These kids are well drilled by the community up here where we live. They dont want to see unbehaved or uneducated sudanise kids so are making a massive effort to educate them at the highest level straight off. I have noticed this as well. Hopefully one day they might enjoy hearing “men at work”.
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:37am | Report comment
tt
I know that! I’m trying to hit a raw nerve!!
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Pippinu / Millster -
soccer exists in vastly more countries in which it’s a monopoly……at all levels.
And hasn’t suffered from non-conforming migration that way that Aust Footy has in Australia – a land largely populated by European immigrants.
The monopoly/choice argument just really sounds a bit lame – Millster – I know you want to believe it, but, gee…………a country like Denmark – - it’s been soccer and handball……………soccer and handball……….soccer and handball and yachting……………and……….gee, suddenly, footy comes along and a batch of people and kids who get exposed to it really quite like it………………….I wonder, if, as per the NSW scholarship thread………………that, there might – in EVERY football market – be that niche for Aust Footy for those people for whom – when playing – that greater sense of ‘freedom’ becomes their defining factor (granted, one persons ‘greater freedom’ is another persons perception of ‘lack of structure’ verging on ‘chaos and anarchy’ – - so, I don’t suggest it fits for all).
Now – using Millsters favourite sporting x-ref to real world politics – perhaps the ’structure’ and ‘disciplines’ of Rugby for example, esp Union – - is seen as being somewhat totalitarian in a communist manner, rugby L and soccer are more socialist, and footy is perhaps more like a ‘free market’ game on the field………….such that, very few capitalist folk seek to move themselves to a communist state – - a social democratic perhaps, but far less likely a communist state as a voluntary movement.
Perhaps this might play a part? Why a Shepparton hasn’t ‘fallen’ to the soccer revolution.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment
oikee -
re the ‘integration’ at schools -
often it’s the non-core sports that achieve this the best – - because, for example, in an English or Scottish school, all the kids already play outside of school either soccer or rugby, and there are established ’social’ hierarchies, and talent hierarchies.
But – introduce them to Aust footy for example (as has happened pretty successfully in a number of schools) and it creates a more of a level playing field, and allows a creation of a ‘new’ hierarchy mostly internalised within the school rather than importing the external and often socio-demographic and even ethnicised hierarchies from outside of the school (yard and hours).
The thing about Aust Footy is that (for now) – it’s new to probably 99.95% of the kids even if they are African refugees/immigrants or Asian or from the US or continental Europe.
Whereas, using soccer for example in Victoria wouldn’t be so effective, as, it’s not new to everyone. You’d probably opt for a lacrosse or something like that.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Just on the aussie culture thing, talking about men at work, we use to be like these guys not having a care in the world, running around sand dunes and laying back like loafers, this was how the English saw us and its long past gone. Now they look at us like load mouth aussies who want to have a picture taken on a statue. Theres not many fair dinkum aussies left because you are all chasing the dollar.
What was a story i once read? A fisherman living in a waterfront village , along came a rich bussiness man and told him he was sitting on a fortune. He told the guy,” what you should do is sell your property, and when you make a fortune you can then sit back and buy a boat and a nice house, also you can put your feet up and do some fishing and just relax when you retire”. The fisherman who owned the house on the village front thought about it and replied, ” i do have a nice house and have got a boat, and i am fishing.” ?
I thought about this story and it reminds me of the aussie culture these days, we all want bigger and shinier things. We all want to live on the water, if it became trendy to live in the country we would all want that. Unfortunately we have lost what being aussie is all about, well most of us.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
MC – “soccer” and handball and yachting to me sounds like a 3-way oligopoly, not a monopoly…. In France its football and rugby and tennis….. Plus remember that Australians have a much larger overall sports consumption relative to other pursuits that pretty much every other country than the USA, so it would actually be more accurate for me to say “in France its football and rugby and tennis and art galleries and fashion shows and ballet and jazz gigs and avant-garde cinema… etc
Don’t be under the impression that anywhere in the world football/soccer enjoys the kind of monopolistic saturation that AFL does in Melbourne. AFL in Melbourne is like the commies in Cuba. Yes small and globally unimportant territiory. But an overwhelming and abnormal dominance of it nontheless. Going back some way in this thread, I suspect this abnormal over-positioning of AFL in its home market is why some Australians and others alike react negatively to it. If I were not desensitised to it, I can see why I might find it annoying that its impossible to fly into Tullamarine on a Monday morning and not have to talk footy with the cabbie or hear about it on the radio all the way into the city…
Pip – consumer sovereignty is over-rated
Most consumers (like voters I might add) are led by the nose and by the heart or purse strings rather than making free and reasoned choices after a careful balancing of factors.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Just thought i would mention about the kids, we have all the codes here so if they were good at one apposed to the other then they have choice to do so, along with a helping hand in that direction M.C. We should never just send them all to lets say soccer or league, this would be a waste.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Oikee – spot on in your first para. Not all Aussies, but a certain segment of Aussies are “the new Americans” in terms of their crass, insensitive, selfish, loud behaviour overseas. And for those people who form a view of our country based on those aspects it is not surprising that they would be cautious to adopt some of the cultural symbols of the “ocker”. What you raise is very close to the point that I had in mind when writing earlier on.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Now a question borne of genuine ignorance – my views and expertise are on business / administrative / policy matters and not so much on on-field things.
To what extent to the various codes cross-train in their development of kids? Do AFL teams play modified touch or similar for fitness and ball handling? Do League or Union guys play kick-to kick or some fast, simple futsal type game? (I know Sydney FC have incorporated both touch footy and boxing in their training).
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Well i read the other day the league players were playing soccer on the beach. And they have there cricket match to relax before origin . There are guys that train in melbourne and sydney with the AFL teams. The walls are falling, we just need to knock them down faster. Also i think some or lots of players go to watch other codes, this helps.
True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Millster – wasnt that the whole imagine perpetuated by Barry Crocker in the Adventures of Barry Mckenzie? Its hardly new.
Agree that plenty of loutish Aussie oafs dont do our image any good overseas, but they are no means alone, English lager lads arent angels either.
Would argue that in many parts of England, say Liverpool for example, futbol has a similar footprint to that of AFL (although Im sure plenty of Liverpool supporters would rather leave that footprint on the head of a Toffemen supporter!!).
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Yep, not all Millster, but from what i hear there is many who seem to give oz a bad name, when i go to England i try to steer the ship back, but i am not getting any younger. We are losing the battle with the youth. I think schoolies has not helped. This is exactly the wrong image to project.
True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Millster,
plenty of rugby and league teams incorporate boxing into their training regimes, and also other martial arts as well.
Cant speak for others, but as a youngster to help with ball skills generally and for a bit of variety, we would play basketball with a rugby ball, but Ive always felt that basketball players potentially could make good rugby players because their hand-eye co-ordination would be very well developed – because the skill sets used in futbol are fairly unique, I would find it strange if say a rugby/AFL/NRL side developed their training around futbol. Having said that, for variety again, Im sure plenty of rugby/AFL/League players have engaged in a bit of kicking the round ball around.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Oikee
I’ll vouch for that None of the real Aussies I worked with on Building sites,factories,(you name it I worked it when I first came here. You could get a job one day, tell the boss to shove it the same day & get another job the next day)exist.
Plenty of character & unique sayings.
In those days working class Poms & Aussies had one thing in common,drinking piss & getting pissed & a disrespect of authority.
Why do you think Redcliffe got settled by a large percentage of working class Poms. Shear heaven. Sunshine ,a beach, a cheap house you could buy & not rent, Pubs . Sort of gave you the lifestyle of the fisherman you mention without being a rich bastard. Something a working bloke could never acheive in Englands class ridden society.
But unfortunately just like the simple Sheffield I grew up where the working class had values unlike today(drugs aplenty beat up old ladies)the world has also caught up with Australia. Not for the better mind either. Compare driving for instance 28 years ago when I first settled in Brisbane with today. Its like dodgem cars now. Nobody gives a stuff. I’m sure if they could drive over the top of you they would. Same as service in shops . Assistants used to be helpful ,now its like their doing you a favour. Mobile phones going off here there & everywhere. Call me a dinosaur I dont care. Gimme a bone.
Speaking of migrants & their kids heres a young lad making it at the Roar:-
http://www.qldroar.com.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&id=25406
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Also agree true tah, but the English way is what we expect, i dont mind them because i expect this behaviour, with the aussies its all disapointment. Nothing of what other countries expect. Which in turn gives us a bad name, imagine being referred to as yanks. Oh the shame.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Millster -
hang on, soccer season runs for how many months?? You’ve got EPL, CArling cup, FA Cup, UEFA Cup, world cups qualifiers, friendlies, and euro’s etc going almost constantly in England/Europe…………isn’t it a pretty well 9-10 month pursuit? Now, in England, we know there to be some pockets of RL, and some pockets of RU…………but, tell me that outside of those pockets that the soccer isn’t over exposed, and an effective monopoly.
………..we play footy each weekend (and for most of the history, only on Sat arvo, thus, once a week) – for about 5-6 months of the coldest part of the year.
If you want a 3-way oligopoly, we’ll throw in cricket, and tennis……….
I could only assume you meant a ‘footballing’ monopoly…………remember that Melbourne is the city of the MCG, packing the stadium out in times past for a Vic vs NSW sheffield shield game!!! Let alone test matches and odi’s etc. Again, back in the glory days of Australian tennis – - this city is the home of the Open, Kooyong and now Melbourne Park (whatever they call it?)……..the most stable basketball team (the Tigers) is in Melbourne, the most stable HAL team is in Melbourne…….and yet people seem to think it strange that the boost of Melb AFL attendances counter balanced interstate sluggishness to boost the 2008 H&A crowds to a new record within that sporting environment.
You can’t make us Melb folk feel guilty.
And, this is taking the cake – - you’re taking a lend of me (I assume, as you can’t put out such drivel otherwise) :
“AFL in Melbourne is like the commies in Cuba. Yes small and globally unimportant territiory. But an overwhelming and abnormal dominance of it nontheless.”
So, you’re effectively comparing the importance of Melb to Australia with the importance of Cuba to the world…………nice one. I heard someone pumping up Sydney the other day, 1 in 5 Australians lives in Sydney……….well, about 1 in 5.7 Australians lives in Melbourne and Melbourne is catching up on present trends. So, if Melbourne is Cuba, what’s that make Sydney and what’s that make Brisbane.
(btw – note again, Sydney hoping to be like Melb, after looking at poaching the Aust Open tennis, they’re looking into trying to make their Autumn carnival a little more meaningful…………a bit short on original ideas Sydney is, but, after all – - their biggest sporting event finishes in Tasmania!!!)
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
I love the way the Cubans have been getting up the nose of the Americans for five decades – viva Che Guevara!
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Anyone who lives in Melb will confirm AFL has a sporting monopoly here.
Take for example todays HS…what did it have on the front pages…details of any of the significant news stories around, maybe even info about the not too insignificant story of Govt support for the WC bid? No Ben Cousin’s, the fact that there is a possibility if Richmond get to put an injured player on a rookie list that this will leave a possibility that they could, maybe recruit Cousins…maybe!!!
Yaaawn.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
MC – rather than comment back please feel free to take a look at the two major French news sites yourself http://www.lemonde.fr and http://www.lefigaro.fr
You will see from them what ‘weighting’ sports gets in comparison to other social, political and cultural activities. I note that football is probably over-weighted today compared to normal, with it being a UCL match day last night in Europe.
The Cuba thing was not meant as a directly analogous comparison in a statistical sense. Rather I was looking for a metaphor for a territory which was not so important by world standards and yet that doggedly stuck to some insular aspects to its little internal culture, and had those dominate their domestic/internal affairs.
I don’t disagree with the individual line-by-line details of what you write here MC. But even with all that taken into account, the reality is that Melbourne affords AFL a position in its social fabric, its media, its culture that is radically disproportionate to the structure and status of the game in broader global terms.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Dave, Millster,
And what dominates the London newspapers, rugby news? Don’t make me laugh.
Redb
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
MC,
That’s right. A few years ago, Sydney would gloat we are an event we don’t need big events. That’s called insular Millster.
What is happening now to Sydney?
I love Melbourne’s culture, it’s not as flash or pretty as Sydney Harbour, but it has a soul, an inner vibrance. I love the fact tthat I an go to the MCG (located in a great sporting precinct about to be enhanced by the bublle stadium) and be part of a big crowd, the roar, the exhilration, AFL footy drives that, shits on a pissy 8,250. And don’t tell me big crowds aren’t important.
Redb
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
RedB – Lets have a look then. Front pages of the major British website as follows – BBC = 1 football and 1 cricket story, less than 5% of page’s overall ‘real estate’. The Times Online = 1 football, 1 cricket, 1 formula one story, about 10% of total page real estate. So half of one and a third of the other…
I don’t understand your emoticons. They generally come after your most inflamatory statements. As for the crowds, maybe you could look at it the other way. Sydney crowds of 8250 may be righfully reflective of what a club that doesn’t have its act together deserves in a domestic league which is struggling for improvement. 50000+ to the MCG for what when the covers are lifted is also nothing more than a suburban comp, well hyped admittedly, but in fact with less surety given to fans that they are seeing anything of value (simply due to the total absence of external reference points) might be more a reflection of an unimaginative sheep-herd-like behaviour than of a discerning audience.
I love Melbourne’s culture too, and love the city overall. But I’d love it even more if AFL was toned down a bit down there.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Dave -
the herald sun is NOT a serious newspaper.
But – - is it that much different to the way the NRL is presented in Sydney??
However – - the website can be vastly different, and even in the AFL finals, we were struggling to get AFL images on the sports page……….there little 1 of 3 main photo section very often carried some overseas soccer player, and the thumbnail stories were very rarely AFL ones………….hardly the expected sports page of the Melbourne monopoly newspaper.
It was actually so consistant, and so bad that I was driven to complaint, as, it was not representing the Melbourne sports news adequately…………kinda looked more like a Sydney news.com.au website……..(I wonder!!).
So, be careful about being too selective, btw – - it’s old news (back to FEb 2008) that K.Rudd would support the FFA and Ben Cousins is a continuing sage the like of which news ltd loves to stretch our in the public domain, and even Ben has recieved coverage and been the subject of blogs/forums in the US not at all related to sport or footy. He IS actually a pretty big human interest story – - and if ALL you see in it is “AFL” and you don’t see the human interest element of it all – - – then, that speaks pretty poorly of your own anti-AFL stance now that verges on obsession.
Millster –
I scroll down Le Monde, and all I see are soccer pictures, I turn to the soccer pages, and all I see are soccer pictures and a dominance of ‘football’ stories…………a little F1.
What’s your point??
Football also dominates the Le Figaro sports section.
Now – the Herald sun has a banner headline re Cousins, but the ‘rotating’ 1 of 3 photos are ‘fat’ John Daly, a Mick Gatto punching victim and Miranda Kerr in a pink bra and undies…………..(not much wrong with that lot!!)
The sports homepage –
the 1 of 2 rotating pictures are MIchael Klinger (cricket) and some US baseballer?!?!?!?
The thumbnail stories :
Golf
Golf
Cricket
Soccer (Wayne Rooney?!?!?)
Cricket (NZ vs West Indies ?!?!?!)
Ben Cousins
Cricket
Frank Lowy
NBL
NRL
problems??
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Redb
l love Melb too
Sydenee Schmidenee MV over SFC, Ess over Swans, MCG over Telstra, Bubble Stadium over SFS etc although l do like Sydenee Harbour.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
Dave -
btw – the double whammy of the human interest of the Ben Cousins story is that it includes the Graham Polak element – - i.e. the fellow who was hit by the tram. And, the parallel (or not) with ADam Ramanauskas who was the fellow placed onto the ‘rookie’ list whilst under going cancer treatment.
So – - – every where you look, it’s high level human interest.
So, again,……….if all you see in that is “bloody AFL”, then your too stuck with your head up you ‘rrrrrr’s to see the the story in it’s broader context.
btw – - the FFA is ruddy lucky that the headlines are “45-0, Govt beats FFA by 45Mill to nothing in funding the FFA’s ego boosting” and “Foreign aid : Govt 45.6mill granted to FIFA delegates”
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Whats this bubble stadium business??
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
MC
“that speaks pretty poorly of your own anti-AFL stance now that verges on obsession.”
No anti AFL stance but certainly anti AFL media sentiment. I enjoy the game but l dont enjoy it being constantly rammed down my throat by an unimaginative biased media who are doing nothing other than making sure they still have a job when the next edition/bulletin comes out. (l no longer buy or read HS but saw its front page as l bought todays Age).
News isnt important anymore.
The example of today’s HS front page is repeated ad naseum throughout the year AFL season or not.
l just like to get a little balance back and put things into perspective…as for AFL the game it can be terrific (2nd in my list behind football).
ren said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Millster-”To what extent to the various codes cross-train in their development of kids? Do AFL teams play modified touch or similar for fitness and ball handling? Do League or Union guys play kick-to kick or some fast, simple futsal type game? (I know Sydney FC have incorporated both touch footy and boxing in their training).”
In my football training for my school 1st team we did a lot of boxing, and wrestling. we did a ridiculous amount of running and played touch (on our knees for some reason, leg strength or something like that) and also played footy on a soccer ground with a version of offside (the purpose i think was to teach us about finding space and room where there was very little, we were after all playing 15 a side on a half field)
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Millster,
forget the internet websites they can divide the stories via tabs, I’m talking the actual papers, back page in particular. How many back pages would get devoted to futbol compared to rugby or rugby league?
Redb
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Suckers, Sydney has what we all want, class, but brisbane to me has that small town atmosphere and laid back approach by the people who occupy the place. Its fast becoming a pill box because of the amount of people wishing to live there. And the sprawl going to the coast, shame.
Towser, brilliant, love Redcliffe and yes exactly what i love about the beachfront properties. We lived at Wynnum on the other side so much the same and our house was on top of the hill overlooking the bay islands. Now, my old man sold this house, a old queenslander, you know what they did, pulled it down and put 2 penthouse apartments up. See what i mean by destroying our image, our culture. Its getting like Monty Carlo down there now, women with red lipstick in bikinis and poddles.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Millster – (& Dave)
did you actually look at the HS website frontpage?
Dave was quoting the hard copy on the street.
There’s a vast difference between the relatively ‘live’ websites and the front page of the paper designed to attract a purchase by a commuter scurrying to catch a train.
big, big difference.
No idea why you’re going on about website front pages.
I dare say that WEndall Sailor grabbed the front page when he returned to the field earlier this year, and Andrew Johns, I assume he made the front page with his drug revelations? I really don’t understand the issue here.
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Millister
New Melb Rectangular stadium under construction, has a bubble shaped exterior.
MC
Cousins created his own issues and has already been given several chances. Not much interest from me in the rest
Polak well lets just say l hope the guy recovers . l dont think you can compare his ‘incident’ to the heroic efforts of Ramanaskas to overcome a life threatening disease during his career with Essendon.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Dave,
What you perceive as rammed down your throat is of interest to AFL fans who are in the majority. Papers sell to their audience. Must be hard if that is your attitude. It would be like having to read Sydney papers every day scanning for any tidbits on AFL.
I think the internet serves you better, so stop whinging about it.
Personally. I think the Tigers Cousins bid is a big story in Melbourne, I’m curious as to how the Richmond faithful will react but judging from the SMS received by SEN this morning they are very supportative. Cousins in a big club will get crowds.
Bubble stadium is the new rectangular stadium being built in Melbourne, at least looks like a bubble from a design perspective. It will add to the sporting precinct which is just awesome, sorry can’t be humble about it, it is magnificent especially considering it’s proximity to the Melbourne CBD.
Redb
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
ren -
AFL – certainly do boxing,
at local level we’ve played a good amount of touch rugby but with handballs obviously.
Soccer don’t do much good, rather though, reviewing other codes for strategy and the like, is very common, and AFL coaches often head overseas for study tours of all sorts of sporting clubs.
actually, a good fun footy training game is ‘baseball’ footy, where you have to kick the ball out into the field and make it around the bases, the fielders have to kick/handball to the basemen. I really enjoy that one.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Dave Millster
Perhaps as football fans you should be more worried about the abundance of overseas football stories in all sections of the media over domestic football stories. By domestic I also include Stories about Australians playing in the top leagues in Europe.
I would say that in the newspaper I get every day “The Australian” Overseas football in particular the EPL receives twice as much coverage as the “Domestic”.
An even worse picture can be painted when I go to the source of “Football ” news in Australia SBS & which I have relied on since its inception as a TV station to keep me informed on football happenings.
I used to follow their World Sports show at 7pm which generally had enough time to give give you a fairly even distribution of overseas & domestic football.
However now there is news from 6.30 to 7.30 they have had to obviously restrict daily sports news to a concentrated segment. Therefore a need to prioritise. Its obvious where their priorities lie when it comes to football. Overseas first & foremost ,domestic as an afterthought.
The other night in their news headlines at the beginning they had the usual depressing financial or Middle East news ,then a leading sports story about Liverpool heading the EPL.
OK give me all sorts of reasons why they did this. Maybe there catering to their market for instance. I’m afraid I dont buy any of them.
Because if football is reported at all on a commercial channel news its generally Overseas once again.
If SBS cant be bothered with domestic football why pick on anybody else & direct blame?
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
I think some stories are created to put codes down, remember the image of league, still does scare some people but at least the head-highs and spear tackles are gone. So we have a story like cousins still going on, hes at a cross road because he does not do the AFL any favours. League has got the bird case along with many others this year. Soccer is yet to taste the real pressure of the media, what happens when each week we are reading these reports, do we take the same stance as league and aussie rules, or do we try to sink the boot in because we want a tarnished image for Soccer. Better off getting all things out in the open, let the public become amuned to the crap and get on with the good stories, like the uanda brisbame guy now playing for the roar. Mind you in that picture you showed me there was 2 dark guys, so i did not know which one he was.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
$ 5.95 Thats what it costs you to get the rugby league week, so you can read all the stories to your hearts content. Get over the papers, i dont read the suckers anymore anyhow. I go online and type in rugby league news. All the stories i can handle and then i type rugby league roar, hey presto. Buy a magazine if you want stories, i noticed last year that all the stories i was reading online were in the league weekly mag.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
DAve -
look, I agree about a lot of the over reporting of AFL stuff…….last week the obvious example was picking on Joffa the well known Collingwood cheer squad member, of all things making him newsworthy because one of his mates took a photo of him posing with a couple of rifles…………….
…………and that’s meant to be news??
newsworthy?
shocking??
Ivan Milat he ain’t!!!!
He’s a ruddy social worker with I think the Salvos or someone like that……………
But, the Ben Cousins story – - that is big news, I can live with that, but, agreed………..he acted up, he’s only got himself to blame and last week as well when they used the leaked email of the AFLPA pych to try to blame the AFL……….that was rich, given it’s the papers and media who turned it into a media circus!!!!
So – - in general, I agree fully,………….but……………it must work, it must sell papers, because,…………they keep doing it, and that can’t be denied.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Yes M.C remember Big Mal dropping Jacko like a sack of patatoes. Charity fights, now they were good, i think Barry Hall would be a crowd faverite. Not sure who league has to conterate him, maybe big willie, i think Hall would take him.
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Redb
So all that is going on in Oz and around the world today and you think it is fair and reasonable that the biggest selling newspaper in this city has as its front page, not back page (total cover) a story of Richmond maybe possibly could be who knows(even though they said no last week) recruiting Cousins possibly. Errr get real.
News it aint trying to sell more papers for sure. News is no longer relevant to the NEWSpapers.
You are right l get most of my info off the internet and hopefully most others will learn to do the same very quickly.
That is why l consider the HS an AFL mouthpiece.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Oikee
Here’s a better picture of the lad.
http://www.qldroar.com.au/default.aspx?s=yleague_profile&pid=1745&tid=274
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Get some of these soccer dudes into the action, that french player for the Glory looks like a likely customer.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
yes Dave,
Because that’s what sells newspapers to the masses in Melbourne. I personally only ever buy the AGE or Fin Review. If Essendon won on the weekend I will buy the Herald Sun and the AGE to read with full gloating pleasure, soaking it all up.
Redb
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Thanks Towser, i thought it might have been him, hes a pretty boy and looks very happy. Must be the Brisbane wheather.
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
MC
Agreed.
Towser
Agreed and the reason…because historically the only football news considered worthy was from overseas (Aussies in Englad since late 70s). The Oz football news in comparison was about a team with the name Croatia tacked on played against another team with the name Hellas tacked on??? (just using those 2 as an example and not having a go at the people who supported and played for them) Who is that going to interest apart from Croatian and Hellas supporters?
The whole media issue is frustrating but interesting to look at. It will take a generational change for this reliance on EPL as the major football news to change. When new reporters come through the system after having had exposure to new football (remember only in its 4th year) a little more balanced coverage may occur.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Towser,
Correct, even in the Herald Sun there are probably more column inches devoted to the EPL outside of Melb Victory game preview articles than the HAL (Dave might confirm). There is often EPL sports news on free to air news shows. Australia is a large British migrant country, they are playing to the masses.
When i think about it, the EPL has always been in the papers and on TV , going back at least to the mid 1970s.
Redb
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Redb
So you very rarely buy the HS then…
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
DAve -
agreed re the old ethnic suffixes,
the more balanced coverage – - it’ll be interesting to see the path it takes………..especially over the summer months…………2 Melb teams should improve it,
as for now……….there is 1 game a fortnight, ………roughly,………..because there’s all these non soccer weekends as well, and often 3-4 weeks between games………..which is why you can’t really complain presently,……….it’s hardly a rusted on part of the town during any period of the year.
In winter, there is about 85% of the time a game in Melb on a Friday night, and 95% of the time at least 1 on a Saturday arvo (of course, it used to be 100% of the time 6 games on a saturday).
Soccer still has a ways to go to deserve the coverage that you yearn for.
Certainly though, 1 game a week most of the time, a couple of local derbies……….and you hope two financially stable clubs – - – pending the capacity for the Hearts or whatever to actually get off the ground successfully and survive the first 5 years (and then the next 5 – - no one imagines it’ll be easy, but, they need to get in to capture part of the first 2 years ‘novelty’ factor of the new stadium, to A. not allow all that soccer novelty to be absorbed by MVFC, and to B. not allow Storm to capture the rest of the ’stadium novelty’ that ISN’T going to be RL specific).
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Just getting back to you M.C on expansion and also calling Aussie rules football. I have said that rules needs to create another comp somewhere, anywhere, just create the sucker. Then you can have a good pathway for your players overseas. League has done this for 100 years in England but it is fast coming to a end, because the brittish game is expanding and getting better. What league needs now is a good 3rd comp elswhere so they can send players to that comp.
Now the word football, i would be happy to just call soccer football, (because it is) with a few headers thrown in, league i would be happy to just call it league or super league, Union is a nusience because it follows the same path. So i would be happy to call union, rugby if we could come to terms. As for Aussie rules, maybe another name if you go global, you would have to think of a good name, not marn gook like K.B would love to use, but a global name. Get away from the Vic sentrick look to the game.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
So hang on RedB and MC…. (and wow this thread has strayed from the original debate)…. when football news supposedly dominates the papers of the major world capitals it is an evil and oppressive global monoculture. When AFL news dominates the pages of Melbourne (and Adelaide and Perth) papers it is excused as giving the majority audience what it want… HUH???? A touch of inconsistency there perhaps? Especially in light of MC’s pointing out that there are numerous worthy sporting pastimes going on in Melbourne (which presumably could and should be given greater weight in local press reporting)??? Am I missing something or does this just not fit together correctly….
All I can say is that I am every day more glad that I’ve in Sydney, where (splitting it into rough proportions across the 7 days in the week) 2.5 days I get League on the back page, 1 day Union, 1 day AFL, 1.5 days cricket, 1/2 day football and 1/2 day everything else. Sure I wish for a bit more football news at the expense of maybe a touch less league, but goddamn it sure beats 6 or 7 days AFL saturation, including as we’re seeing currently even the ability to manufacture stories in the off-season. I’m glad to live in a city where the assumption is made that the audience wants more than the one same old thing.
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Coverage of the A-League in the Age? Outside of the Victory, I’d say the coverage of the A-League is comparable to the coverage of all overseas leagues combined – just an off the cuff estimate.
All of it combined is still less than the coverage of the AFL – and that’s during the Summer!!
Throw in the front page stories of Ben Cousins, and the social pages, and well, we better stop counting.
Actually, when Ljubo Milicevic was with the Victory, he got their count of mentions in the social pages way, way up!
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Oikee – for the second time in a few weeks, due to your post immediately above, you have made me smile and if I could grab you and give you a bear hug and a kiss on your ugly scone I would
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Millster
yes, quite a conundrum – I think the answer would be as follows.
Coverage of AFL in Melbourne is more akin to covering a cultural icon than a sporting contest – comparable to covering the opera at La Scala in the local Milanese rag.
You don’t see the locals getting up in arms about that!
Do you have something against Australian culture?
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
As an aside, another question, how does the Age or the HS do in terms of reporting of the Italian and Greek leagues in its column inches devoted to non HAL football? Obviously very major constituencies in Melbourne… obviously I’m questioning Redb’s characterisation of us as a ‘British migrant country’ as a causal factor for EPL dominance. Here in Sydney there is a touch of news sometimes on Spain or Italy, more so when in the context of the UCL comp than the domestic leagues of those countries.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Could be interesting then next year M.C , as you might have heard 9 has bought the rights for some super league games to be shown. Extremely good veiwing i have to admit. The overly enthused poms loving there game and supporter base bulging at the hips i have just read, makes for good veiwing. Weather they take these games into melbourne and other cities will be interesting.. I for one have followed these games on Fox (2 games a week) wanting to see more. League is doing well overseas since moving to Summer, i can see soccer also over time doing well in oz. But under my thoery of walk before you run.
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Oikee
these are my suggestions:
Big Footy
Wild Footy
Oval (or translation of that from a footy friendly language)
Freeball
Onside
Tron
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Millster
Re Serie A and La Liga, as you say, a touch. The Greek league – bugger all.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Agree Millster, i think we should be getting soccer reports all summer, because the game is being played. Same goes in the Brisbane papers, i cant find 2 many stories about league around, more soccer than anything. But i accept this because its soccer season. Now theres a good catch phrase for the season. ” SOCCER SEASON”. Bit like “SAUSAGE SIZZLE”
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Millister
How do you know its an ugly scone?
Seriously though you’re second last post 1st paragraph makes a very valid point.
In terms of AFL monopoly of the Melb media well you get used to it and find ways to seek out real news/storys eg paytv or internet.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Pip – but La Scala has a major opera perhaps 5 or 6 times a year. Whereas AFL has this relentless, never-ending coverage.
I love Australia but to me it has many dimensions, facets, diversity. And AFL is not a big one of those facets in the grand scheme of things – in fact directly to your post, lets not shit ourselves. You simply cannot equate AFL to Australian culture. It isn’t even relevant to 50% of the country’s inhabitants. But you get to Melbourne and its like nothing else of value exists sometimes.
Metaphor – I love French culture too but if someone grabbed just one small slice of it – say chocolate eclairs – and made me eat them to a point that I was nauseous each and every single day of the year I’d soon become jaded with that one element of it. That wouldn’t make me anti-French. But it would make me react negatively to eclairs!! Unless of course I was from a town where they had eaten that quantity of eclairs since birth, in which case I would develop a kind of digestive myopia where I accepted eclair saturation to an unhealthy level without knowing any better… and at the cost of opening myself to other culinary possibilities from further afield.
Dave said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Oikee
“supporter base bulging at the hips i have just read” Does that mean they’re all fat?
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
I rather like the Dutch word for “oval” – eivormig, i.e. egg shaped.
All who agree with eivormig say aye!!
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
Would you get over French maids as quicly as chocolate eclairs?
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Pippinu – why not something with some AFL tradition? The game could be called Cazaly for example…
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
I like Tron, i want it to be modern. Tronathon. Men of tron, theres a couple of offshoots for the upcoming games.
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Haha Pip… never! Or Australian maids, Swedish maids, …..
More seriously though the notion that I’ve seen a few times in past months that not being fanatical about AFL is unAustralia really troubles me. I am proudly Australian and yet I have a comfortably warm neutrality about the game at best – enjoying it for what it is but not as a major priority in either my sporting or my overall life. I’d hate to live in a country where there was a short-list of things you had to be to be seen as Australian.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Good, cazaly, very good. But Tron is good, Big Bad Ugly Trondikes.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Millster -
hang on just one cotton picking minute – YOU started on about Melbourne being a sports monoculture and AFL dominating……we’ve simply tried to illustrate that soccer gets the same (and for a longer season) in MANY overseas cities where soccer is and has been the footballing monoculture for quite some time…………….but, not nearly as significantly intertwined with the history of the city from day dot (+/- 23 years) as is the case with the native combination of rules developed locally in Melbourne.
It’s a bit like the Holden……………..y’see, losing the Nissan manufacturing plant about 20 years ago was sad, losing Mitsubishi from Adelaide was sad,…………if we lost Toyota from Altona, that’d be sad……………but BY GOD, don’t take our HOLDEN!!!!!
THat’s what it means.
If you still don’t ‘get it’, then, perhaps you don’t care about Holden either!?!?!?
btw – my parents are Danish but in the main I couldn’t give a stuff about what the Danish papers are reporting………..and that’s even WITH an Aussie princess.
THere has traditionally been a very prominant Italian language newspaper over the years that carried a lot of the Italian community specific stuff.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Dave
Like yourself I dont really need newspapers or TV anymore to get Football news I go to the Internet. On the Internet there is reliable sources of Daily Football news. However I am a lifelong fan. I actively seek out Football news both domestically & from around the globe.
So in reality there is no real need for anybody who follows any sport to whinge anymore about their sports coverage in the media. But what is now required(& this can be applied to any sport) is a complete rethink by Sports administrators on how to reach their audience via the media’s of the future such as the Internet,particularly as their future viewing audience is from the technology savvy generations coming through..
I’m from the newspaper at the front door generation yet have managed to change my mindset to use the Internet as my main source of information & knowledge. So surely it wouldnt take much for the FFA to connect to say the up & coming generation of football fans in Australia via the Internet(Lets face it its been a perennial whinge of football fans in Australia the lack of connection to the massive junior base & their families)so they have say some sort of incentive to view sites such as TWG & particulary 442 for A-League news. Maybe competitions & the like aimed at kids I see none of that. Lets face it every sport has to find a way of connecting to the up & coming generations. They wont connect to them via the old ways,yet I’ve seen no real evidence that their connecting through the new ways either. Perhaps I’m wrong & I’m not aware & I will stand to be corrected but I cant see it
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Name for the Aust footy code -
terra-ball
following NSW as the ‘premier state’, because they came first,
premierball
NRG ball
dyna ball
hyperball
(lustyball)
adjustaball
changeaball
FLEXIBALL
variaBALL
mutaBALL
GloBall
how about Foot-T, (pronounced ‘foot-tee’), nah, that actually works more for rugby kicking off a little tee or a mound of sand………..sheesh, it ain’t easy.
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Pipps -
Barrasheed?
Cazlow?
Pipp-ball???
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
MC – now you really have me on a soap box – thanks to this stupid nationalistic bent we have thrown good money after bad, at both state and national levels, to prop up this idealistic notion of the Aussie Holden (which in fact is a General Motors – ie USA – subsidiary ironically…). Most recently $6bn announced by Rudd at a time when for gods sake we are in an economic crisis and we need a steely resolve to strengthen our economy and make important structural decision for the future (and how the hell one could possibly see the propping up of our thoroughly failed car industry as a good structural decision has eluded me for a decade). No I don’t care about the Holden one bit… actually I do care, I care that my money as a taxpayer has been thrown over an over again at a company making substandard quality cars with a repeatedly failed business model. Its nothing short of a disgrace. And I’m not even getting onto the issue of Labor party and unions and the corrupt morass behind all that.
Surely you want AFL to be tested, and either live or die, on merit. Not because of some cutesy notion that it has an inherent right to survival just because a few pissed blokes in a pub 149 years ago scratched out a bastardisation of Rugby and Football onto a piece of paper.
No I don’t get it at all. What you are promoting is the most dismal of parochial regionalistic protectionism. And its a philosophy that I abhor!
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Wonkyball
Notfootball
(actually I don’t like the ones ending in ball)
I’m still on the Cazaly League… then you could have the CLA (cazaly league australia), CLUS, CLUK (haha), etc… I’d put the CL first as it clearly brands the game in its abbreviated form and also the other way (ACL) would be mixed up with Asian Champions League and we’d get back into fights about nomenclature that AFL / Cazaly would inevitably lose
Michael C said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Millster -
live or die on merit – - that’d be fine,
but, we know there’s no such thing as a level playing field.
SOccer – - we know, relies on external factors to pump it up, i.e. the popularity response to a World Cup, and then, it fades away again.
Remove all external factors, and allow AFL to go head to head with NRL, ARU and HAL and see what happens.
All the other codes have this ‘international’ dimension which is lauded over the AFL…………(for all the good it does them).
But, seriously – - do you see the HAL ever moving the AFL off the scene WITHOUT the influence of external factors………….i.e. hosting a FIFA WC, and having the Govt build a whole heap of freebie soccer dedicated stadiums………..because, remember, the FFA has no money to sink into all this……………….soccer IS NOT progressing on it’s internal merits.
And many soccer advocates believe they will win the day because all kids – in their minds – will seek to go overseas and make big dollars internationally, test themselves against the best overseas and see the world.
So – - unless you can make it a level playing field……………which it never will be…………
and the FFA and HAL could fall in a heap, but, soccer will NOT die internationally should that happen………….the FFA does not have anything like the responsibility that the AFL does for the health of an entire code of football rather than a national federation.
So – - talk to me about individual merit when the FFA can pump some of their own hard earneds into building a major stadium or funding their own WC bid. Or even funding their own NINE national teams that parade around the ‘international stage’…………..ruddy Govt should be saying…………..”No, you need to learn to derive your own revenue streams and be self sufficient”……………….Govt’s are populated by w@nkers!!!
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
“the FFA does not have anything like the responsibility that the AFL does for the health of an entire code of football ”
Again massively overstated. The world would not blink if AFL ceased to exist at a professional level. Personally, I don’t want it to die of course, or be ‘moved off the scene’, but the administrators do not have responsibility for something whose existence is of any significant global impact. Its just a little local game for gods sake.
I’m sure some species of insect or small amphibian or crustacean or something has become extinct in Guatemala today. Has your life changed?
And no it is not a level playing field. Note that I didn’t ask for a level playing field or even raise one – I don’t even believe in the concept – rather, I spoke of “on merit” which includes a range of environmental factors for each code. I also don’t believe in removing external factors, for it is those factors that allow us to gain a reasoned perspective …. including assessing whether or not a code which covers 3 cities on the entire planet on the southern coast of one country should be treated the same way and given the same support with one that offers linkages to a truly global stage and integration with countries and cultures the world over.
Pippinu said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Towser
there already is an incentive to read 442 online – especially every Wednesday morning:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/90843,blog-too-much-of-a-good-thing.aspx
Koala Bear said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
If this is a new naming contest; I would like to put forward:-
A few names that have been bouncing around the ROAR for sometime… 1). Marn Grook 2). Marngrook 3). Grooky.. these are the best by far and have an Australian connection .. Give it back to the indigenous folk … After all it was Tom Wills who stole the game from them and pretended it was he who had invented it… Do the right thing and embrace the name Marn Grook .. Hurrah… finally we are getting somewhere …
~~~~~~
KB
Millster said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Gotta go – GO ADELAIDE tonight!! 9.35pm SBS
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Now Now M.C lets not forget that league has always had a fight to survive, against the dark side, UNION. but we have come through and i think its nearly time we started to shine. We are not really in a fight with other codes, yes we had the AFL shuffle i call it, scared of the unknown, but we are getting past that. Soccer we dont have to fight, we have learned to co-exsist. Look to be honest, if i had to make a choice between Cricket Golf or Soccer in the summer months, soccer is the game i would have to follow. The other 2 have their obvious reasons for me to let them go.
But AFL has to expand overseas, put your efforts into that, not worrying about oz, if your games popular it will expand by itself.
oikee said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:17pm | Report comment
I just seen a disturbing AFL add, hawthorn pointing to a cup saying thats why i love to play footy, bullshite, lets just get a pile of money and throw it in the air and say thats why i like to play footy, be honest about it, league players are, they go to union for bigger dollars. Thats why they love to play Union.
Towser said | December 11th 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
Pippinu
Maybe this is just the start of Pippinus Football wonderland for Aussie Kids.
Got to say that though that all round 442 is a superb source of information regarding the A-League & football generally in Australia.
sheek said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:05pm | Report comment
At time of posting, I’m #157, & I apologise for not reading about 150 other posts to date.
Let’s be clear about this. Australian Football is a great sport, & I like it.
But if American Football can’t conquer the globe from the lofty height enjoyed by its country, then Australian Football certainly won’t from the backwater occupied by its country.
No need for the wisdom of Solomon, or Job, or Socrates, or Plato, or Achimedes, or da Vinci, or Einstein, or Mandela, or whoever.
It’s so god-damned obvious, stop being blinded by emotion.
Norm said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
sheek
stop beating about the bush & tell us what you really think!
Forgetmenot said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
Sheek,
American football requires padding, and is a sport that is much harder to understand off no experience than football is.
Oikee said,
“But AFL has to expand overseas, put your efforts into that, not worrying about oz, if your games popular it will expand by itself.”
In reply,
I have thought about that as well. Maybe the AFL should stop ploughing money into NSW and instead put it all into the International development of the game in say South Africa, Asia, or the USA. I dont think Europe is a viable place to grow the game. In a globalised world the sport does need to grow, and football lovers cannot afford to sit around saying, “We are the most popular sport in these states” because one day it might not be, and then what!!I
I think the biggest hurdle for football is to get another country playing well enough to play Australia. Or get two other countries obsessed enough with the game to get a decent series going. I think once that happens, football will rapidly catch up to league in International presence, and quickly establish itself behind Union.
In the next 50 years i think it is possible for another country to be able to play Australia and challenge them. I also think it is possible to convert 2 Asian countries to the sport (or part of a large one). And that is the most optimistic i am willing to be. And to those people say “Ur dreaming”, yes i am dreaming. And dreaming is the place of ideas, and i am willing and i am motivated to turn my dream into reality.
Redb said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Sheek, no-one here has said Aust footy will conquer the world. But it has taken some small tentative steps finally in the right direction to achieiving some international presence.
For the record i have no problem with Aussie Rules or Australian football as the name and doubt it has had any bearing on the game’s ability to expand. In South Africa it is promoted as Footywild.
Redb
Boris the Mudcrab said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
Wow what a great thread!!!
Lets get fair dinkum and rate the sports
AFL – No chance of “genuine “International” growth….Very Very Popular in a Few Aust States and Passing interest in the others. Seems intent for Australian and world domination!
Soccer – The World Game…The game the world loves with the exception of US, Aust, Canada. NZ, PNG, Pacific Is, South Africa and no doubt a few others. Played by everyone from women, wimpy kids, over-protected children and no doubts very talented athletes. Supporters of soccer seem to think this should be the only game that exists for some reason. It seems world domination is not enough!
Rugby League – Can at least claim a competition called a “World Cup” Very Popular in a couple of Australian States with Good Interest in Britian. NZ, Growth in the Pacific Islands & PNG and a passing interest in the rest of Australia and a half dozen or so other countries.Locally is becoming worried about the $ some of the Union countries are throwing around (France)
Rugby Union – Popular in a couple of Australian States and a passing interest in a couple of other Aust States. Can claim a genuine World Cup and a genuine international program. Supporters in Australia are frustrated by Rugby Leagues dominance in the “main’ states of NSW, QLD and being more popular than Union in VIC. No 1 sport in NZ. Sth Africa and most of the Pacific Is
Finally I think that we are blessed in Australia as we have a choice of sports to watch and support. I can appreciate soccer, but if it was all that I could watch I think I would head for the GAP!!!
True Tah said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Boris
futbol is no. 1 in South Africa, athough rugby is a very popular sport there.
Midfielder said | December 11th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
My first post as I don’t like these kind of threads but will make a couple of comments and disappear.
As I see it the AFL management is only in it’s recent history pushing hard into NSW & QLD. Reason as given by the AFL needed to maintain or improve existing media deals … if that is the main reason I find that weird.
The media comments are typical on this thread but if the people trying to defend AFL media coverage in Melbourne, first you don’t have to defend it, … it simply is… we football folk have to earn our place at the table and in a professional capacity we have not earn that place yet… However to the AFL folk you do get an unbelievable good media in Melbourne and again until the very recent past football got the one in four year WCQ and other than that were is the riot..even (and Redb not the AFL’s fault) channel 7 had management team to some extent trying to bury football. Today that battle is over football now gets reasonable reporting what we lack now is space and time … but it will come. I gleam this change from the riot stories to some good / reasonable press is seen by some as a football is now getting more than it should good news stories. When football folk will argue it is still very small. … Football coverage will increase and it will get more positive over the next few years.
The problem AFL has in it’s expansion plans are twofold prior to this season the AFL never openly declared war on the other codes preferring to warn RL & RU people of the sleeping giant … only when Ron Brasattie (sorry if spelt wrong) made his speech. Suddenly NSW & QLD folk and media began to look at AFL claims and openly question things taken for granted in Melbourne as being gospel truth. This has caught many by surprise and was I think unexpected as prior to the delegation of war started by the AFL these things were never questioned. Secondly the NRL are fighting a stronger than expected fight.
But coming back to my general theme the AFL management teams over the years chose a course of action to have maximum coverage in the southern states and the drive north and internationally is driven by future potential media deals otherwise why start now why not this effort 30 or 10 years ago.
I think in the extreme this is a very foolish move by the AFL management as they have promised a lot to a lot of people to the Media the ratings to AFL clubs future media deals … so when the key driver is money / media / sponsors, something does not work for me, not much has to go wrong to get many offside when money and rating are the driving force.
Forgetmenot said | December 11th 2008 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
It is a key marketing concept that if a business goes after money then it is doomed to fail. However if the business aims to please its existing customers then others will how much the business cares and will go to that business instead. The AFL currently seems to be going for money, and adopting a marketing strategy similar to the NFL.
I think that the AFL is right to go to the Gold Coast, but i am still hesitant about Western Sydney. Perhaps initially the move is for the TV deals, but maybe there are other reasons such as showing the game to all the immigrants in Western Sydney.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 7:07am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Ron Barassi. There have been a few passionate followers of football like Barassi who have made statements which could be considered having a ‘ world domination’ agenda. There are far more people who are realisitic about footy’s expansion prospects both in NSW and QLD, and then a limited sense internationally. What some posters have assumed is that it’s all or nothing for the AFL in terms of international presence, it’s not.
Much like you often suggest with the administration of soccer the AFL has only got its act together in the last 5-6 years (NSW/QLD). It’s past strategy was to re-locate a team, assume everyone would flock and the game would grow. It now realises you must build from the grass roots level upwards, literally create support through playing the game. That is a big part of the agenda re expansion into NSW and QLD, it’s not just about the media, that is how it has been reported in NSW and QLD by people with other football code agendas.
Domestic scene
I think the AFL was suprised by the size of the last media deal with the concept of extra value due to TV ratings in NSW and QLD. It is now part of the agenda to drive the TV deal with two new teams. But let’s be clear, the main agenda is to grow the game of Australian football.
To Boris the RL man, QLD is far more advanced than NSW with regard to Aussie Rules. You also forget that a good proportion of southern NSW is AFL territory. I’m in southern NSW towns on a regular basis, 4 posts dominate the sporting grounds of these NSW towns.
I’ll take you to task on the ‘main’ states comment as well. 1. NSW, 2. VIC, 3. QLD, 4. WA, etc Take southern NSW and far more presence in QLD for AFL than the rugbies in VIC and you much greater depth for AFL than NRL or rugby union. AFL is bigger.
International Scene
Midfielder, there have been exhibition matches played for 3 -4 decades by the VFL/AFL, they’re good for expats but drive little in the way of local grass roots teams and leagues. It has only been in the last 2 years, yes just 2 years, that the AFL has tried to build (with funding) the game from the grass roots in another country. In that context, the AFL has an enormous task and is eons behind the other codes.
Redb
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Midfielder -
why not 30 or 10 years ago…………..30 years ago we had 6 games on a saturday in Victoria, and the Aust Footy states were just kicking off State of Origin (soon to be copied by the RL folk), and Kerry Packer was weaving his WSC magic.
10 years on from that, the VFL was recovering the situation after having clubs broke and players being paid 10 cents in the dollar (St.Kilda, Fitzroy….). South Melb were getting established in Sydney with Docter Edelston, and the West Coast Eagles where just kicking off along with a team of cast offs up at Carrara but called ‘Brisbane’. VFL lost sight of international aspects in PNG and RL got a kick along later in the decade. I doubt though you’d call it a major tactical blunder, there were only so many resources
10 years on from that, the ‘original’ 12 has become 16. Fitzroy have just effectively made way for Port and we now have the Brisbane Lions in Brisbane. We’ve gone from 12 teams in Victoria to 10. And 6 teams across 4 states making up the rest.Plenty of activity, plenty of change, and, perhaps the code is saved from becoming a totally irrelevant state based regional curiosity rather than a national based one.
10 years on, today…………….over the last 10 years, a period of consolidation of the national competition perhaps highlighted by a period of interstate premierships to Brisbane, Port, Syd and WCE. The AFL has overseen 3 successful INternational Cup tournaments and now the next 10-20 years offers real potential of international footy recruits NOT drawn from Ireland.
The next 10 years also promises 2 new teams built from the ground up – one a seemingly accepted no brainer from the Gold Coast, and the other with definitiive pros and cons (and they vary relative to time frame) from West Sydney, along with moves from Tassie.
Is the AFL simply chasing money? Is there any logical reason to stop at 16? Is there any reason they shouldn’t seek to expand to 20 and have 2 conferences? Is money the sole factor or a nice benefit? AFter all, if the AFL were simply seeking out the cash, we’d have had a night or even twilight GF by now……………….but, that wasn’t the AFL, that was the NRL and the HAL had a night GF.
If the AFL were simply after cash, we’d have had 2 Friday night games and Monday night games by now………..but……….that’s not the AFL, that’s the NRL. And no offence to the NRL – - as pointed out, they have to fight for survival too.
It seems a bit rich to come out and selective attack the AFL for being cash hungry – - when, business realities are certainly that there MUST be a healthy regard for financial benefit. And long term sustainability. Which is why the AFL aren’t actually rushing in with their final signing off – - a lot can change in a 6 month period.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Maybe you should read some of Frank Lowy’s comments in todays SMH about why the Asina connection is so important, its all about money and media rights. Singleing out AFL is absurd.
Redb
Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:37am | Report comment
People on this thread might find this article by Simon Hill interesting (in 442):
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=166580𨪴
He is referring to an article in the Daily Telegraph, but then takes a massive swipe at AFL.
sheek said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Redb,
Agree calling a sport Australian Football is not a hindrance. After all, it’s OUR game.
General comment. A sport doesn’t have to be popular worldwide for it to thrive in a domestic market. Australia is a perfect example of this.
We’re not called ‘down under’ for nothing. We support our football codes in almost exact reverse to the world trends.
Australian Football is the most popular football code in Australia, despite having little or no meaningful international significance. Rugby League is next, despite having only a marginal world imprint.
They are followed by Rugby Union, which until recently, was our third most popular football code in terms of profile, & second highest world profile after Association Football.
Association Football has always had more participants than Rugby Union, but until recently, had a lower national profile. This has of course, now changed.
On the domestic front, as long as aspiring players are satisfied with the level of remuneration they receive from the sport of their first choice, they’ll continue to support it. Irrespective of international trends.
The AFL & A-League are expanding. Good on them. Whether too soon & too quickly, only time will tell. I admire & applaud their courage, nonetheless.
Shame Rugby Union doesn’t possess the same pioneering spirit. Better for them to stay in the backwoods & be forgotten. Union is one sport hoping its international cousins will bale it out. As always!
Rugby League lacks visionaries & sugar daddies. No big money men in league. Players, despite their love of the game, may vote with their feet, & go chase bigger bucks elsewhere.
Union bucks that is. In places like Japan, France, England & Ireland. Anyway, that’s how I see it, for what it’s worth.
sheek said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
BTW,
Accept the argument that American football is a more complicated game to learn. However, park ‘gridiron’ is actually quite simple. You don’t need padding to play park ‘gridiron’. And it’s a lot more fun because of more lateral passing, as the yanks call it. Less emphasis on ball security. And defence & offence can be the same players!
So in terms of poor African or Asian kids requiring accessibilty to padding, the argument doesn’t hold. Like Aussie rules, all they need is the football………. open space.
Nonetheless, the principal argument remains. If the yanks can’t sell American football to the world, then the aussies certainly won’t sell Australian football.
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Good points M.C Even thow i dont like money being the main object it still has to be a underlying factor for growth. The 2 conference teams of 10 should be the aim of every code. 20 teams must be the target and easily acheived i might add. If league really wanted to push ahead it could at this moment move to 20 teams. AFL is well on the way to acheiving this with there push into the northern states. Soccer wont take long to get there either. I see no harm whatsoever in having 20 teams for each code. None whatsoever.!
Just one more thing M.C we know ireland has Gaelic football, now if i was the afl and were pushing to get international growth, why not try to start a comp in ireland and use this as a international base. The growth from there can spread. ?
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:26am | Report comment
To be successful at international competition you need a overseas comp. All agree.Soccer has plenty, Union has plenty, league only really has one and has shown can be successful. AFL needs to fast track a comp somewhere for the game to grow. Can be acheived. This is why American football will never take off, there is no other country that has got resources to get the game going outside america, most countries have got the other codes well establised. Aussie rules greatest hurdle is grounds.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Oikee – just testing… why is 20 teams the magic number? My thinking has always been that it is better to have less teams of higher quality, so that the top players aren’t diluted too much and so that sponsorship, support, infrastructure etc is not spread too thin. My view in Australia is that 14 to 16 is probably the magic number – 2 teams in each of the major cities and 4 to 6 spare to go around elsewhere (or as ‘extras’ in the core cities for each code).
Remember that even at the lower end of 14 teams each, that means a total of 56 professional outfits that the Aust community, sponsoring businesses, administrators etc have to support across the codes.
Where I do agree is that, maybe not across the board but for some things (eg. the earlier rounds of an Aussie FA Cup style comp in football) a conference system should be considered.
On AFL in Ireland why would you want to put your game against its most direct competitor in the world? And remember the gaelic guys think the same way about their game as the Melbournites think about AFL – they are fiercely protective of it. I think the AFL is right in looking to South Africa. For some reason my gut tells me the west coast of the USA and perhaps also South America might be fruitful as well (problem with the latter is that its not such a haven for aussie expats and tourists)
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Pip -
that is a crap comment from Simon Hill,
and the simple fact that to him Gary Ablett and Kevin Sheedy are English soccer players just goes show that he lives in Australia with his head still in England…………if he likes it so much………..then go back there son!!!!
But, as you say, how he turns a Daily Telegraph article into a reason to attack the AFL is astounding,
and, if he is so greatly defensive of Draws – - such that teams can make the A-League finals despite winnings less games than they lose………..because of draws……………….surely then he’d realise that even that the apparent logic to him of the worthiness of a draw is a subjective as the apparent logic of behinds used to help avoid draws (although, I always admit that perhaps behinds ought only be used as a countback to separate a game drawn on goals).
Now – - Gary Linnell who wrote the original article………..way back in September, was potting everybody and anybody,
actually check it out:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24385271-5017479,00.html
he was also potting the NZ Warriors RL team, the NBL, Stephanie Rice, Wayne Bennett, Tennis and Golf administrators and he had a go at soccer fans.
Garry LInnell, the former head of Ch.9 news and current affairs and editor in chief of the Bulletin, is a Sydney media power broker…………….why the heck Simon Hill uses an article by he, from September, given that in November he’s appointed the new editor of the Daily Telegraph………………..it just appears absurd,
Simon Hill has lost it entirely.
and sadly, Pipps, on 442, you see those folk just lapping it up.
True Tah said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Millster
re: South America – expect big growth in our dealings with them, especially Chile, Australia is developing trade relations there, and looking to sign a double tax agreement as well (until fairly recently we didnt have any with South American nations) and they also have some profile in rugby, albeit overshadowed by the futbol behemoth – they have hosted junior world cups which were attracting crowds of 10k plus.
Re AFL in the US, Im sure its actually bigger than rugby league there, League has about 6 teams on the east coast, Ive heard there are over 30 AFL clubs in the US.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
TT – am I starting to get a feel for what govt agency or area of business you work in? AusTrade perhaps?
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Oikee -
re Ireland, for now, best retained as a friend.
Footy can’t afford to compete head to head with them, and shouldn’t be seen to do so. There’s more to the GAA than just the Gaelic football, and you don’t want to offside what is effectively a broader political/cultural organisation.
(btw – Simon Hill showed his ignorance by taking the IR games seriously!!!)
For now, the most clubs are probably found in America, the most ‘participants’ in PNG and Sth Africa, the best junior structure might even be in PNG and the best access to Aust (AFL) talent pathways so far is by PNG.
THe nationals in PNG are pretty popular (for that fraternity), and with over 10,000 participants, it’s not a completely trivial location. THe participation in RSA needs to be consolidated, and formalised to a greater degree – -but, there is boundless enthusiasm and natural talent for a game like Aust Footy where they’ve been working it………………the ‘broader’ appeal is another thing, but, that will/might come later. As the AFL know, playing an exhibition game alone doesn’t achieve anything……..but, grass roots work seems a better bet.
For now – what IS healthy, is the recognition of overseas footy happening, such that, some recently retired AFL players have been bobbing up playing overseas……..whether Andrew Schauble in one of the Asian countries, or Chris Heffernan and John Ironmonger in the USA………..we’ll probably start hearing of more who have moved OS and got involved in playing/coaching. That’s nice.
btw – northern Europe is still interesting……….the recent locals dominated growth spurts from Sweden to Finland and now Norway, as an add on to Denmark. ALong with the presence in GB and Ireland…….there’s probably some nice potential there of sorts………perhaps a GB vs Continental Europe major fixture each year.
Look – we’ll know more probably in 3 years time should there be a junior International Cup alongside the senior one. If the junior tournament get’s off the ground………..then…………THAT will mean something, the senior tournament as I’ve always said is a really nice curiousity, nice stories around it and encouraging to see………….but, a junior tournament will be ‘gold’.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Name: Gary Linell
Crime : Writing horseshit
The Court says : Puerile attacks which are made all the more meaningless by their failure to leave out some potential targets in the Australian sporting landscape (notably AFL, cricket, rugby union, Anthony Mundine, and the non-inclusion of pleated skirts in the new national netball league)
Sentence: To be regarded forevermore as a lightweight
True Tah said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Millster
I previously worked in international tax consulting, which is why im sort of familar with the whole Chile thing, it was an assignment I was engaged on briefly, that was almost 2 years ago. If a country has a DTA with another, it is normally suggests some level of agreement over matters tax-wise.
I dont work for Austrade, actually its nothing like Austrade/DFAT, etc, what I do now has very little to my previous history – bit of a seachange.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:10am | Report comment
MC – while we have had some disagreements in recent days, where I do agree with you is that the AFL IC is a excellent, absolutely spot on intiative. It fits the bill perfectly in terms of doing something positive and appropriate that is in keeping with the code’s strengths and weaknesses. And yes if there is a parallel junior IC comp in 3 or 5 years time that will be a great thing. This is one area in which I give an unqualified 2 thumbs up to your game.
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Did anyone mention that it is actually a crap game?
The great tragedy of the “success” of AFL is that it has probably robbed Australia of greater success in sports that actually do grab attention on the world stage: Association Football, Athletics, Rugby(2), Basketball, Baseball.
Can you imagine what dominance Australia would have in those sports if all those physically fit and brave young blokes could be persuaded to take them up rather than become ensnared by the sporting onanism that is kick ‘n’ giggle.
Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Albert
It’s a free country, and those brave fit young blokes have voted with their athletic legs. If there was something better on offer, I’m sure they’d jump at it.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Albert – that sort of opinion is not welcome here. One of the unofficial boundaries on this site is respect for the intrinsic value of each code, whether or not they are to our taste. AFL may not be your thing (its not particularly mine either) but that does not make it ‘crap’.
Forgetmenot said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Michael C,
There already is an International Cup for juniors. It is the Barrassi Youth Tournament. However it does need a bit more publicity. I was fortunate enough to meet all of the participants in the 2006 version, and i have to say they were very excited about the tournament, and very interested in the game.
http://www.afl.com.au/Portals/0/afl_docs/Barrassi_Youth_Tournament.pdf
Albert Ross,
That is your opinion. Most people exposed to the game would say otherwise.
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Pip
Many of them have not really had the opportunity to play other sports. Perhaps not so much today but historically this was the case.
In the early sixties the sainted Bryan Palmer was employed to spread the RU gospel in Victoria. He would go to schools and address the boys. “Who wants to play football for Australia?” he would ask, Needless to say a forest of hands would go up. “Well you can’t do that playing Australian Rules” he would tell them before inviting to them sign up for coaching and he was usually inundated. He was banned from both govt and systemic RC schools for his success. And before some smarty suggests it: he wasn’t a kiddy fiddler.
And then was the scandalous MCG lockout of 1946 when the VFL authorities connived to prevent the Victorian Rugby League Grand Final being played at the ground before a substantial crowd. The backwash of that chicanery was that the game lost substantial revenue and cred when it was making great strides.
I
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Millster – are you the owner of the site?
dasilva said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
MC
Simon Hill writes article for 442 Magazine. It gets publish on the internet about 2-3 months after it get publish in magazine. It’s very confusing sometimes I know especially all the other articles that seem woefully out of date.
He attack AFL because he Gary Linell is an AFL journalist and Simon Hill likes to give a touch of there own medicine.
THe Kevin Sheedy and Gary Ablett comment is just tongue in cheek. Come on, can’t you see the humour in it.
I think sImon hill should have been more diplomatic and that simply pointing out the flaws in the comment is enough. No need to throw mud even if mud has been thrown at you.
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Millster, 20 teams means you have 20 good teams with plenty of talent for every team. Now glad you brought this up and is why growth of soccer is going to be poor in this country, maybe. I will try to explain and you can have your say. Rugby league is on the threash-hold of having way too much junior talent with not enough teams to substain that talent. As you know we are at the point where the bottom team is capable of knocking off the top team. Now this is good, where you need to be for expansion.
So 20 teams for NRL along with all the island talent and PNG make for loads of players, not to mention NZ. Now bare with me, the under 20’s comp has now delivered a even faster rate of talent coming through the system. This one fact is why i have stopped worrying about players moving to Union. Even our best players are being replaced by new up and coming colourful players,
heres some names to mention, We lost SBW sonny, Gas Gasnier, Gower, Rooney and now maybe Marshal, benji but we have the likes off, and this to me is exciting T-Rex (williams manly winger forward) Predator (dane laurey) the beast, wolfman and even a guy who has decided he wants to quit Union in Japan to try his trade in the toughest comp in the world, suppose to be a massive unit.
Now when you reach this point then expanding to 20 makes sense.
Now getting back to the other codes expanding to 20, yes AFL is nearly there, if they keep getting talent from all states and as well as any foriegn talent then 20 is a good target to keep the talent flowing. Soccer just needs slow growth until it can either afford overseas talent or get more juniors through. No rush mind you , we dont need to see it happen like tommorroow, but should be a target, now we have 3 teams in queensland for soccer, i can see another 1 or 2 teams up here eventually, so lets say 4 queensland, and 4 nsw, 2 NZ and 4 melbourne 2 perth and 1 aderlaide maybe 1 canberra and another couple to complete the set. But 16 is a good target for now. 20 later when the cup runnith over so to speak.
Yes have the talent 1st, but 2 codes already nearly have this. The main thing that needs to be remembered is that there is still lots of kids not being utilised for each code. When we have pathways this talent will also be recognised.
Union is going down the international path, super 14 with more countries involved ie;- NZ Sth Africa. This might also be a idea for soccer Asia.
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
All i am saying M.C is you need some coutry who has dollars to pay for players overseas. America might be the go then, super league has more money to offer than NRL so intices players overseas, this is what you have to acheive.
Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Albert
Sounds like a massive rewriting of history to me.
Victoria has had a Rugby Union for at least 100 years.
I grew up just down the road from the Footscray Rugby Union Club and played with Parkside, on a field adjacent to theirs, alongside the Maribyrnong River.
Anyone of us could have trundled 50 metres across some grass and taken up rugby – but none of us did.
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
All i can say is that with rugby league we have had a hard struggle to make a go of it throughout the world, would i change anything if i had the chance to go back , not a bloody hope in the world. I love leagues history and always enjoy reading about its stories and struggles with the past. Very colourful. Right down to that maingy cup, by the way, have i mentioned is she not a beauty.
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
>Anyone of us could have trundled 50 metres across some grass and taken up rugby – but none of us did
Pip
Can you spell “straw man”?
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Forgottenalready saud;
>That is your opinion. Most people exposed to the game would say otherwise.
I suppose you think that all the bitch-slapping behind play is exciting? WWE is your second fave I dare say…
Forgetmenot said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Albert Ross,
The “Bitch-slapping” is a form of sledging, asserting authority. And no i hate WWE as it is acting.
oikee said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
I would hate to be Bitch Slapped by Barry Hall.
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Albert – no I am not the owner but a regular contributor here as are most of the others on this thread, and we mostly stick to a set of norms underpinned by the view that each of our codes has a basic value. I also note that following up a “the game is crap” statement with a story about whether or not one can play for Australia if one plays AFL (which is a structural weakness of the game’s history, strategy and footprint but not anything to do with the intrinsic ‘crap-ness’ or otherwise of the game-play) is just rubbish. The only person that needs bitch-slapping is you.
Oikee – yes I like you celebrate the way in which our country and the region produces talented juniors. But 2 things. First its not just a matter of finding enough spots for all of them to play at the elite level. Competition for places means that only the very best will play in the top flight. And secondly, once again, more clubs means more sponsorship required, more grounds and facilities required, more costs, more fans to spread between the clubs, more marketing dollars etc. Australia may be a lucky country but it is not a bottomless pit of resources for sporting codes!! Don’t take this as a knock because I love your excitement about the talent we see coming through the Aussie sporting landscape. Even as a football fan, I see us finally having our act together a bit more about identifying juniors and giving them a bit of a pathway, and also identifying talented Aussies who have been hidden overseas in various leagues and never been on the radar, but who we are now plucking back into the national setup.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment
True Tah, Millster,
There are now over 50 Aussie Rules clubs in the US with an annual US championship. It’s all amateur park footy stuff with expats but a good amount of locals who represented the USA at the recent AFL International Cup.
Redb
Millster said | December 12th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Thats good news Redb. And I’m not surprised. Even just anecdotally, when I’ve been to college campuses on both US coasts I see the groups of guys and girls there doing long throws of gridiron balls in much the same way as we do kick-to-kick down under. I think if a sherrin was thrown into one of those pack they would get the idea pretty fast! Plus there is a campus ethos of doing ‘broader’ sports that could be tapped into – eg there is not really a professional presence for Union in the USA but certainly each of the unis I’ve been to had their rugby team. I in fact have a GWU Rugby t-shirt in my closet. No reason why AFL couldn’t get some traction at this level too, at a niche level but played by some pretty athletic and sports-savvy young guys and gals.
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
Milster
Do you know how to spell “troll”?
oikee
That’s not what I have heard….
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
daSilva -
yeah, back in time – Linnell was doing AFL stuff,……..but, for whatever reason he’s doing a tongue in cheek pot shot at the sports and individuals that he did……..he did it firmly towards the Sydney readership of the Daily Telegraph………it just seems a bit silly for Simon Hill to slag off the AFL………….had nothing whatsoever to do with the AFL and everything to do with Linnell. However, the broader context of Linnells role actually providing written content to the paper in the Sydney context I admit to having no idea of or interest in. But, Simon Hill – - he doesn’t mind taking a broad swing………….a good way to create enemies that. If Aust does win the rights to host the FIFA WC, Hill might want to keep on good terms with Victorians else he might not be let into Melbourne to call the FINAL at the ‘G.
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Foregetmenot -
The Barassi Youth Tournament (or is it now the Jim Stynes youth tournament) – - has been more a regional and irregular concept – with respect to international participation.
It is a question now though of arranging adequately the greater picture. Also, including more tours of ‘local’ footy teams and school teams OUT of Australia to places like PNG, NZ and the pacific islands to provide competition and all that goes with it.
The aspect of a parallel IC junior tourney is to have – (and given that around the time of the IC 2008, that GB and Canada both had touring junior sides in Australia says much) – a parallel global junior tournament. Hopefully providing a greater economy of scale, a greater promotional value and sponsorship proposition.
Right now, you’d have such a tournament with definitely Denmark, SthAf, PNG, GB, Canada, NZ – - likely Nauru, Samoa, not so sure about juniors in the US but hopefully such a tournament will be the catalyst (which could be the catalyst for sudden growth in the US), I think Sweden, In Japan and China a lot of the local teams are based around Uni’s, so, mebbe a partial flex under 19s format could still draw a side from those areas………….and the recent Asian championships included a junior division (at last), which include the young Finnish kid who isn’t half bad and the Icebreakers had sought parental permission for him to come over for the IC, but they put his schooling first!!!!).
See what happens………presumably Simon Hill would deem it all a waste of time…………..and, maybe Gary LInnell would too………..that’s the irony.
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Redb -
more like 60 clubs now, and I referred to last week I think the story of the central Ohio team established now by a native American who stumble across footy whilst back packing in Australia 2 years ago. SO impressed, he forewent his previous sporting experience – - and has gone about establishing a local club (after previously driving to Cincinnati).
The simple fact now is that people like that have so much greater scope to become involved and to either join existing clubs or to establish new ones simply because the network is established, and the internet especially facilitates this sort of stuff like nothing before.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
re Garry Linell, a past editor of a Melb paper, now a Sydney based editor.
The last article I read from him was about 2 months ago, where he bagged AFL and reckoned the NRl was for him. Just pandering to his audience. A journalist of little consequence and certainly not a spokesman with his finger on the pulse of AFL fans.
Redb
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Simon Who ?
Zac Zavos said | December 12th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Guys – weighing in here regarding some of the comments from Albert Ross.
Millster is absolutely correct when he says: “Albert – that sort of opinion is not welcome here. One of the unofficial boundaries on this site is respect for the intrinsic value of each code, whether or not they are to our taste. ”
The Roar is a cross-sports site which values informed, respectful and passionate sports opinion.
Albert – if you want to sledge and wind people up, there are millions of forums out there full of flaming and abuse. We’re working hard to make The Roar different. Please respect this.
(Note to all – please report any inappropriate comments using the ‘Report comments’ feature.)
Michael C said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Another reason for ‘poor growth’ of the ‘open’ Australian game – - – is simply that the New Rugby phenomena of Rugby League (which has changed and removed certain characteristics over it’s 100 years as it’s seemingly been hijacked somewhat away from the original game).
Back around 1908 – - there was still a fairly great similarity between the games. The whole ‘Australeague’ proposal had legs – seemingly – and but for bad weather in England, J.Giltinan may yet have succeeded along with the Aust footy folk in forming a merged entity truely to be reckoned with………..however, just how it might have evolved from then, who knows.
As it is, RL was the mid point b/w RU and Aust Footy. Since then, RL has seemingly moved away from Aust Footy which in turn Aust Footy has moved away from RL.
That Dally Messenger could so easily move from playing the Australian game in Melbourne and perhaps early days in Sydney, to then become the first superstar of NSWRL – suggests not insurmountable differences.
Back then, RL allowed a fair catch, and a shot on goal could be had in general play from a fair catch or according to Sean Fagan, off the ground soccer style (but over the x-bar).
A quote from Fagan “As it was unlawful to kick the football into touch on the full, and no one had yet mastered the art of kicking the ball on the bounce into touch anyway, the football was constantly on the move – this was rugby played with the frenetic urgency and, yes, scrappiness, of Australian football.” (what he sees as ’scrappiness’ others see as ‘hotly contested’ which makes the clean ‘winning’ of the ball a feat in itself)
So – whilst the Australian game was the most open, RL was vastly more open and flowing than RU. Had it been purely the Australian game vs RU, then, it would’ve been no contest, the Australian game would’ve swept thru Sydney and therefore not have lost ground to the north of Sydney – as it subsequently did.
Sadly, since then, RL has become less of a goal kicking game and more of a running and carrying game with goals now only acting as a virtual after thought. This has enormously changed the dynamic of the game – as anyone can see that even in the dour RU, the capacity to break up the game by kicking a field goal that is still worth a worthwhile number of points – means that there is retained an extra dimension to the game and the means by which a winning score can be accumulated and strategies to which defences need to be alert to. RL has lost this and become a little more single dimensional – - by comparison to the game (i.e. ‘newrugby’) that Dally Messenger forewent Australian football to join and spearhead.
If everyone knew then, what they know now??
JaDo said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
You guys are kiding right? WW1 – give me a break.
Here are ten better reasons why AFL hasn’t taken off internationally.
1. The ground’s so big, you can see what’s going on over the other side of the field.
2. The lack of a send-off rule – you nudge someone in the back, it’s a free kick; smash someone’s jaw and your name gets taken… oooh.
3. The fact that you can smash players who don’t have the ball and it all seems to be OK.
4. The handball thing – to anyone brought up in just about any other football culture that allows handling (rugby, league, gridiron), this is just plain silly. Just pass the ball.
5. You get a point for missing the goal.
6. Far too much of the play consists of players rolling around on the ground trying to pick up the ball.
7. It has more rules than rugby union, but the umpires don’t give any signal to explain what the hell some of the free kicks are for.
8. You can run around with the ball in your hands, but as soon as an opponent touches you, you have to drop it. Even rugby people who have a somewhat similar rule don’t get this one.
9. AFL folk spend all season dissing the round ball and extolling the (to them) rather mystical properties of the “sherrin” – but when it comes their only international competition, what do they use? You guessed it, a round ball.
10. Narrow self-interest. If the AFL can’t even get Collingwood to come to the party on something as simple as a change jersey, how are they ever going to get everyone on board with international expansion.
jimbo said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot,
you forgot to rate the second most popular sport in the World after football – Badminton.
Faster (F) 8, Stronger (S) 6, Higher (H) 9 and easy to learn.
The international growth of AFL is a bit slow, but the growth is exponential and will improve significantly in the next 10 years.
Its a generational thing, as most people know and will take time for the overseas kids to catch on. That’s why the biggest battle of the codes is being fought in Schools and playgrounds and indigenous camps right now.
dasilva said | December 12th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Jimbo I thought the second most popular sport in the world is actually table tennis?
jimbo said | December 12th 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
dasilva,
not according to Bruce McAvaney, 7’s resident Olympic badminton expert.
I did a quick google on the phrase “second most popular sport in the world” and got a different answer from every website I looked at ranging from cricket to basketball to American Grid Iron and many more.
The only thing they had in common was “soccer” at number 1.
Funny thing I saw at the RSL club the other night – the table tennis room is located adjacent to the snooker room. We were playing billiards and for the first time in my life I saw the bouncers called to the Table Tennis room.
Two guys were karate fighting over a dodgey net call and were ejected by the sumo wrestling bouncers.
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
according to this link it’s cricket.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Most-Popular-Sports-Around-The-World&id=551180
Redb
Redb said | December 12th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
and the most popular sport in Australia according too this link is……?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_most_popular_sport_in_Australia
Redb
Simon said | December 12th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
What a piece of total rubbish.
When, except in the last couple of years, has Australia been any sort of cultural hub for FIJI ???????
bozo said | December 12th 2008 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
If by second most popular you mean the sport which is played by the next most countries in international competitions (after football) I suggest that you consider water polo. It is at the opposite end of the scale to AFL. To be world champions is to be just that.
brad said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
11. crap to watch
We get coverage in South Africa strangely enough, I would rather watch NFL.
Albert Ross said | December 12th 2008 @ 9:53pm | Report comment
^^ be careful Brad. The kick ‘n’ giggle thought police will be on your case.
Pippinu said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
Alberto
Maayte – honestly, the bulk of Australian Football fans don’t worry abou the garbage you’re going on with.
We simply turn up to games in big numbers. No, let me re-phrase that, we turn up to games in very big numbers.
Do you understand the concept of very big – very big – really big – right up their in World terms.
We put our money where our mouth is, we support our teams, and we’ve made our game the biggest in the land.
As for looking for people to play baseball and basketball? Were you having a laugh?
Maayte – Australians prefer their own game.
Do you understand the concept of being Australian?
Midfielder said | December 12th 2008 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
My understanding the worlds number one sport is fishing … read it somewhere about three years ago.
Dave said | December 13th 2008 @ 6:37am | Report comment
Pip
Appreciate your views and sense of humour particularly on football and AFL but…you keep questioning bloggers about whether they are Australian why?…because they dont like or follow AFL? Come on you can do better…more than half the population have no interest or very little interest in AFL..nothing to do with them being Australian. To continue along your theme anyone in England who doesnt like football is not English? etc etc
You have to understand whilst AFL is big down south is not the case in very large areas of the country particularly to the north. TBH honest (l’m not sure if you live here permanently) but Melb is not the normal type of sporting environment…perhaps because of its isolation for so long it is a gold fish bowl for one sport only…nothing else is on the radar…thats not the case elsewhere.
Norm said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:00am | Report comment
Aussie rules might be your game pippy boy but its never been mine or for that matter the majority of sports fans in the eastern states. That doesn’t make us non afl eastern staters any less Australian or any less a person than you. Your xenophobic tendencies are becoming boorish. Keep that up and I’ll have no option but to report you to the moderator.
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Dave/Norm
Let me remind you both what Alberto’s first ever post said:
“Did anyone mention that it is actually a crap game?
The great tragedy of the “success” of AFL is that it has probably robbed Australia of greater success in sports that actually do grab attention on the world stage: Association Football, Athletics, Rugby(2), Basketball, Baseball.”
Now it’s fine for people not to like the game, and I welcome anyone here to explain why they don’t like it, but the above post is the sort of deep seated hatred one comes across every now and then from those who would wish that their preferred sport was anywhere near Australian Football in terms of popularity.
And then to pray that the majority of Australian would prefer Basketball and Baseball over their very own home grown game, well folks, that sounds fairly unAustralian to me. How do you propose to describe it?
A bit like advocating that we should celebrate the 1917 Revolution ahead of ANZAC day.
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:19am | Report comment
Norm
I’m not sure how you can describe me as Xenophobic. i’m the son of immigrants and speak several languages – hardly the attributes of your average xenophobe!
Dave said | December 13th 2008 @ 7:32am | Report comment
Pip
You are just sounding too defensive of AFL…there is no reason to be. For every Alberto there are many who will say the opposite. AFL is entrenched in the southern states and is attempting to spread. As us football people know so well, when you start to encroach into ‘foreign’ (for use of a better word) territory many of the locals aint going to have arms open. Many people in Oz genuinely dont like AFL (for any living in Melb it must seem difficult to believe), no need to take this as a personal attack on Australia’s heritage. Millions of Aussie love AFL but millions of AUSSIES dont.
Koala Bear said | December 13th 2008 @ 8:01am | Report comment
Norm,
I stopped paying attention to Pippi when he said he and the rest of the world didn’t give a damn about Australian Soldiers who fought and died at Gallipoli on the SMH Football Flog.. Then to go on to say that Sicilians were killed there in their thousands some 200 years ago… Tragic in itself yes, but to demean the Digger as less important.. And now to suggest, because eastern state folk and migrants who have made Australia home are un Australian because they prefer the other three codes.. Can you really take him seriously..? Nah, he is a pompous fruit cake …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Albert Ross said | December 13th 2008 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Dave
Pip’s favorite tactic is to construct a straw man and then knock it down.
No matter how he dresses it up, AFL is sporting onanism.
Using his theory of “home baked is best” we should, in our later years be eschewing bowls and taking up Trugo, the sub-continent’s cricketers are traitors to their heritage unless they play Kabaddi and so on ad nauseam. Of course this type of sporting ethnic purity would see the end of his beloved International Rules as the GAA’s Shinners would reintroduce “the ban”.
And it is hard to see how he can sustain an argument that AFL should continue to proseletyse those benighted nations that have not been lit up by the flaming torch of the sport’s Jihadists.
Sam said | December 13th 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Two reasons why AFL won’t be able to get into the hearts and minds of Sydneysiders:
1. Spiitual home and birthplace is in Melbourne. What does Hawthorn, Carlton, Collingwood etc mean to a Sydneysider? Not much. Just like what does Penrith, Parramatta, Manly etc mean to a Melburnian? Here in Sydney we see it as a Victorian game. That is just how it is..
2. The rules and way the game is played is still a bit of a novelty. Getting a point for missing? The game goes for a bit too long and can be a dread to watch if it is a blow out. Also too much scrappy play (similar to union) where you don’t know where the ball is as or 5-6 guys chase a ball whch is wobbling all over the place too dive on it. I think you get the drift anyway.
But I am Australian and I watch football and rugby league. Remember that to be Australian more than anything should be to have the freedomm to follow what you enjoy. I am sure there are many things that could be criticised about football and league. eg I don’t like diving or feigning injury either / or the meathead culture in league.
Norm said | December 13th 2008 @ 9:06am | Report comment
KB
rest assured…I don’t take pippy boy seriously…
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
I repeat again, Alberto would prefer most of the Australian population to eschew Australian Football in favour of basketball and baseball.
Now if you guys think that’s a reasonable proposition, don’t lay into me, write something favourable about the idea put forward. Explore the idea, don’t talk about me – I didn’t put it forward.
I first came across this notion as a 15 year old when a mate and I were catching a train back home from Waverley. A bloke from Sydney had been at the game and went on to tell us how much better Rugby League is and how Australian Football takes far too many world class athletes away from more worthy pursuits (presumably like rugby league, baseball and basketball).
Our first (and only) reaction was: huh? there’s a game called rugby league?
Fortunately, we were all saved from being bored to death by this bloke when a drunk German stood up in the middle of the train and started shouting about the Fuhrer.
Our first (and only) reaction was: huh? the fuhrer?
KB
your memory is even worse than your knowledge of Sicilian history, either that or you’re an outright liar.
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Alberto
for someone who supports the rugby codes, and presumably gets pleasure out of big boofy blokes setting scrums, your use of the term “onanism” is curious.
dasilva said | December 13th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
What’s the deal with this gallipoli controversy?
dasilva said | December 13th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
To me it’s unAustralian to say the word unAustralian.
It’s just another way of saying you don’t have personality traits I like.
Even if wanting AFL football to die in this country and be replaced with baseball or basketball. It may be arrogant, rude, zealot behaviour non-liberal thinking etc. It’s not unAustralian (perhaps you can define me what is your definition of Australian).
For one thing AFL football is not a united front and not an integral part of culture in every state of Australia. It seems to me that in NSW there are significant amount of people who hate AFL and feel like they are doing there patriotic (or at least parochialistic duty) in spreading there word of hate.
Second thing when is bad negative traits ever unAustralian. This over romanticism of the concept of Australian is nauseating anyway. IT’s like there are no bad people in this country. Being an arsehole is just as Australian as being a saint.
Koala Bear said | December 13th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Pippi,
what part of my post is a lie ..?
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Das
About a year ago, someone on the FLOG mentioned an argument we hear in the ROAR quite often: no one else in the World gives a damn about Australian Football, so it follows that Australians should not as well.
I said something I often say here, that the fact that Australian Football is Australian is a pretty good reason for Australians to give a damn.
I then gave the example of Gallipoli, which is not significant to the world but is significant to Australians. It’s an argument about historical and cultural significance – and even people who don’t like the game will often recognise at least the historical significance from an Australian point of view (people who are knowledgeable in that history, that is).
That’s what KB is referring to – but as usual, either his memory is fading or he has deliberately twisted the facts to paint in the worst possible picture he can manage – which is quite a despicable act in my humble opinion.
I actually try very hard not to get personal with people – but I don’t see that same respect working the other way.
Pippinu said | December 13th 2008 @ 10:49am | Report comment
KB
simply compare what you have written to what I just wrote to Das above.
I’ll now kindly ask you to never, ever correspond with me again, thank you.
Koala Bear said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Pippi,
one parting post as your memory is confused … After that statement you made on the SMH Flog .. Do you remember the discussion you and “Odin” had.? He said the veteran members of the RSL would take your comments in a negative way and then you went on to try and justify it with a defense that was too rediculous to comprehend.. Now my response to you was .?.. “Go tickle your arse with a feather” .. And I know that your original statement that you made on the SMH Flog was a big mistake by you, and no doubt you have regretted writing it .. But, you and your ludicrous stand on football folk outside your Victorian pleasures as being un Australian had to be addressed … I was not about to let you get away with that…
~~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
My 2 cents on AFL.
Although I disagree that because AFL is Australian then we should all give a damn. A game should be judge by its merit not by nationality. Where the game originate has no bearing whether I like the game or not.
Why I don’t like it.
Too many goals. Since it happens regularly, the individual goals loses it meaning. Don’t get the same euphoria.
This also leads to a lack of tension in the match. In a game like soccer a single goal could kill off your team so whenever the opposition team is in your half you feel trepidation (and conversely anticipation when your team is attacking). I only ever got that sporadically and rarely in AFL ( I have watch a few AFL matches such as Adelaide run to the premiership twice in the row).
Lack of international matches. Not having a country to support on an international stage is an obstacle. I enjoy supporting Australia at the olympics, world cup, australian teams in the ACL, grand slam in tennis, cricket in international matches. Nothing like a bit of patriotism to fuel your passion.
I’m also not a parochial person. A sport that has only a domestic competition relies on parochialism. I’m more Australian then South Australian. I have very little interest in interstate rivalry. Beating Melbourne has no more meaning then beating hobart, brisbane etc.
Now I know AFL has its own advantages and own excitement and skills involve and people enjoy the fast paced, high scoring nature of the game. But each your own, every person different and I respond better to the advantages to the game of football then AFL.
In any case every country has sports that no one else in the world plays. In Australia we have AFL. Australia is by no means unique. It doesn’t stop any other countries from playing there respective game and it shouldn’t stop Australia and it would be a shame if AFL dies in this country (like that would ever happen)
peter_ga said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:25am | Report comment
To me it seems ironic that the author has focused on the olympics criteria, because I do find AFL to be overly athletic. It’s been said that AFL has remarkably little strategy, with crowds booing even the simplest tactics. I surprised myself by actually enjoying the recent international rules games; that code seems to have elements that AFL lacks.
oikee said | December 13th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Maybe we should say your unastralian if you dont like all sports. Insecure, would this be a good word to use if you are the biggest. Now think about this, take a bully , we know that this guy uses his size to get what he wants. Others join his pack because of his size. But come men and mice we all know the little guy pulls his strings. Now what this has to do with what we are talking about, i have not got a clue, its hot, its mid-day and its saturday. See you Monday.
Slippery Jim said | December 13th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Ouch! Careful you guys don’t take someone’s eye out with all those barbed comments! I personally think the moderator was a bit unfair to pick on Albert Ross when so many others were flaming too, Millster included. My two cents worth: KB, your link to most popular sport in Australia is flawed for two reasons:
1. It reduces the entire population to a handful of states, who are then factored in using a suspect ‘voting’ method with one vote per state, if you like, which ignores population sizes – surely the most important factor if you are going to make a point about which sport most people prefer. 2. Its from Wikipedia.
Peace out O Y I *
*thats a peace emoticon – some assembly required
Koala Bear said | December 13th 2008 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
well I am absolutely flabagasted; here I’m thinking that the northern states and the F*FFA in cahoots together as the second most popular sport in the nation of finding ways to have Melb Vic players red carded and suspended. Now I am totally confused as I have a CRSL associated membership that is now second to this sport “Red-Card-Vic-Players” has suddenly gone national and the number one past time of every Australian across the nation ahead of the CRSL all stars … Who would ever have believed it.?. In one short season this most popular past time has grown with absolute no formidable opposition apart form the CRSL .. What will ever happen next…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Phil said | December 14th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Forgetme not, let me analyse your points.
Reason 1: It has too many aspects to it
- I don’t see how this is a drawback. You make it sound like the rest of the world is too dumb to understand the game. There aren’t to many aspects, you kick a ball, catch it, kick it again. Pretty simple.
Reason 2: Australias comparative low emigration (and high immigration)
-True. Australia needed significant immigration in the 50’s 60’s to boost productivity etc. There was no need for australian’s to leave the country, therefore no chance of anyone overseas seeing the game. Most immigrants brought Football here with them.
Reason 3: Australia is not a cultural hub.
-True, British dominated society that the rest of the world didn’t need to care about.
Reason 4: Australia is not an economic hub
-Major factor. Australia’s low population means Australia doesn’t have the big business required to make sport grow. The reason the NFL works in the USA is because it has 300 million people and the world’s richest economy. If it didn’t, it would be exactly like the AFL.
Reason 5: Australia is physically isolated from the rest of the world
- Another major factor. Remember all these sports had roots staring back in the late 1800’s and have over 100 yrs of history. If Australia had shared borders with other countries, then 100 yrs ago they could have easily tried to make an international game of it. The USA was the same too. Remember no planes back then!!. It’s too late now to make the world care as they have Football as their number 1 sport.
Reason 6: World War
- Don’t see this as a factor to be honest.
Reason 7: Perceived violent nature of the sport
- Not as violent as say rugby,league or American Football. But the rest of the world looks at these sports and probably thinks why the need for the violent nature? Sport doesn’t have to be violent.
Reason 8: Football is not popular in Sydney
-True in a sense. Its hard for AFL to expand overseas if its not the number 1 code in Sydney. But its doing ok there. But it’s not a major factor. Rugby League isn’t popular overseas either and that’s from Sydney.
Reason 9: Poor decisions
You make it sound like the AFL was flush with cash from Day 1 of its existence so that it could do all these things. It was an amateur game for a very long time and there was no globalization until the 1990’s .
Reason 10: Community minded
Do you mean narrow mindedness? Once again it took forever to expand into NSW and QLD. They didn’t have the money to look internationally then.
My Summary.
Its hard to play a sport internationally when there are no ovals to play it on. No one is going to build a new stadium to play AFL to compete against one country. Culturally there are no links to the sport. Thats why Association Football doesnt work in Oz, USA, NZ, Canada and white Sth africa. They didn’t grow up on the game, so find it hard to support. Only its truly global nature means it exists in these countries.
The cricket countries that it could play it, all have there own football codes already. Change it to a rectangular stadium game like Gaelic Football and it might have a better chance.
Australia’s isolation and lack of money stopped it growing internationally when it most mattered. It’s too late now for international expansion. Even the NFL with its huge megabucks is just staring to do it and it’s costing a lot of money for them.
So Enjoy AFL as an Australian sport. Nothing wrong with that.
Forgetmenot said | December 14th 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Phil,
Very interesting and good post.
Hopefully you can follow my reply which will be in dot points in order of what you have said.
- Apart from kicking and marking there is also handballing, a skill only seen in Volleyball. The type of goals is another aspect which would confuse people. I think in the modern day, the game does have a lot of rules which makes it cofusing for people to pick up and play.
- The Great War killed off participation of football overseas.
- I liked you point about the violence in sport, which is why the AFL has tried very hard to change this view of football overseas.
- I feel that a big presence in Sydney would allow the AFL to market itself as a truly national game (like cricket can), rather than the nations game. It would also gain a larger presence in tourist brochures, and books about Australia etc.
- There was a push to expand the game into Sydney and Brisbane in about the 60’s i think it was. But the administrators in the all the state leagues didnt want to. Yes they didnt have much money, but relocating a team could have had very good long term benefits.
The AFL is trying to grow the gane in areas with ovals. Elsewhere, places without ovals are playing Nine a side football.
I know that it will require a lot of money to grow the sport overseas. But i also know that in 50 years time and i myself havent done anything i will regret it. We have to do as much as we can to grow football now as it all adds up in the long run. And i am enjoying AFL as an Australian sport, i also watch the occasional SANFL and NTFL game.
Pippinu said | December 14th 2008 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
Re onfield violence, interstingly the latest editoin of FourFourTwo quotes Fergie as saying: “I thought I was watching a game of Australian Rules Football” (presumably after watching one of his player manhandled without recompense).
I suspect he would have delivered in his inimitable deadpan manner. 8-[
Redb said | December 14th 2008 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
Good comments Phil..
There never has been a genuine chance to grow Aussie Rules overseas until now, we should try and create niche leagues in various countries (Sth Africa, PNG, Ireland, probably NZ and Canada) to eventually to add to the player pool here in Australia. Just as other codes encroach on Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth taking a share of young sportsmen, Aussie Rules should seek players in parts of OZ and internationally who like the game but have never had the opportunity to play it.
I think we have a good chance of building these leagues now that the AFL has got its grass roots programs in the right format. Queensland is already developing fairly well. Not everyone wants to play futbol or rugby just not everyone wants to play Aussie Rules in Melb, Adel and Perth. There is a far greater population base to tap into for Aussie Rules when you consider it’s tiny footprint, it does need a lot of growth in NSW and QLD and then internationally, primarily Sth Africa and PNG to replenish stocks.
Redb
Michael C said | December 14th 2008 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
What gets me is that some folk seem only to see ‘football’ through the eyes of followers of games that defend their own goal and employ off-side rules and other ‘restrictive’ rule sets so as to make scoring very difficult.
If australian football were just another code of football – - then, quite patently there’d be stuff all reason to seek, expect or hope for it’s international ‘expansion’ let alone national expansion………heck…….it’d be as pointless as a world with rugby league, rugby union, American AND Canadian football – - all born of the same rule set and remarkably similar still.
Australian football offers something quite different.
is it too easy to score? For some it is, until you try playing it and realise. For others; followers of ’sport’, – the opportunity to see ‘football’ but not as they know it………..may well be similar to the impact of first ODI’s on the demographic breakdown of those who follow cricket, and likewise 20/20s now.
The irony of course, is going to a 20/20 for me – time just flies, it’s like being at the footy. For followers of RL and soccer – a game of footy drags on…………..in the US market however……..
Pippinu said | December 14th 2008 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
You make some good points MC.
I’m continually flabbergasted by people on the Roar who view it as an easy game, or view it as a game lacking in strategy.
I’m sure if they sat in the coach’s box for an entire game, they might see things a little bit differently.
Sharminator said | December 15th 2008 @ 5:04am | Report comment
Interesting topic .. although all the stuff about what is australian, what is football etc is irrelevant.
I grew up in Tasmania, moved to Sydney when 17 for 8 years, and have spent the last 6 years living in Europa, the US and
now South America.
In Tassie, like Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth Aussie Rules football is dominant, most people follow it .. but there are minority sports, rugby, soccer etc which get minor coverage and support.
In Sydney, yeah the swans get coverage for AFL, and going to a swans game is a form of entertainment .. but the reality is most swans supporters have never played the game and at a community or junior level very little AFL exists, instead Rugby League, Soccer and Union dominate.
The point, from a business perspective, is that if you cant even dominate in the two of the biggest three markets in your own country, how on earth do you plan to successfully expand overseas.
In terms of the comments above I was interested to read about the claims of overseas leagues in AFL etc. I read somewhere someone saying that they didnt think any overseas team would be ready to challenge an Australian team until 2020!!!! Are you kidding? Come back to reality.
I lived in Europe for 4 years, in England, Ireland, Spain and Holland, and never heard of any Aussie Rules. So I did a bit of research … yes there is a “team” in spain or one in paris … but have a look at the reality from Wikipedia about european AFL clubs “Training sessions are held every two weeks “, “They withdrew in 2005 due to financial reasons”, “the league has since disappeared”, “they are currently in recess”. There are clubs that play occasional social games, but that is it.
According to the AFL itself, in the US there are 2000 players spread amongst 40 teams, but 60% of those players are expat aussies.
Overall, accordng to the AFL, outside of Australia there are only 9000 adult AFL players. That is in the ENTIRE WORLD outside of australia, 9000 adults who choose to play aussie rules. There are a further 20 000 “juniors” but juniors numbers
are always subjective as this includes kids who go to a one day camp, kick a footy for 2 hours, and never touch a footy or see Aussie rules again in their lives.
The point is outside of Australia, Aussie Rules does not exist. Its less than a blip on the map. The teams that exist are led by ex-pat aussies, and if they leave, the team stops.
There is nothing wrong with this. Aussie Rules has a strong base in Australia in the southern states, and expansion teams in the eastern states have crowd support. Aussie Rules, like NFL is never going to wither or die. It is a strong part of the culture in it´s base states. But the reality is that it is an Australian phenomnenon, and Aussie Rules supporters have to stop kidding themselves that their code can become a global sport.
The NFL poured hundreds of millions of dollars into NFL europe for 20 years, establishing a pro league with US players combined with locals, but it didnt work. Team support came and went, teams changed, and they pulled the plug last year, admitting defeat. This is the experience of the NFL, the commercially strongest sports league in the world!!!!
The reason Aussie Rules is never going to grow internationally has nothing to do with World War I or being too complicated. It is because Aussie Rules is a home grown Australian sport. There is no basis on which other people will play it as most people in the world are not from the home states of aussie rules, and have no cultural link to the sport.
Soccer and the two rugby´s had a basis in England, and therefore Europe and the rest of the world. Aussie Rules does not have that.
You will never have masses converting to a sport they have hardly heard of, that has foreign cultural roots, and that is only professional in a relatively minor country.
And in terms of attracting the best talent for the sport, think about it, if you are a budding young sportsman in europe and can choose … soccer, rugby union, rugby league, and possibly become professional, or in the US NFL, basketball or ice hockey, or …. play amatuer aussie rules training once every few weeks, with a bunch of foreigners, what will you choose? So far the only cases of foreigners in AFL have been gaelic footballers who cant actually play their original sport professionally.
Aussie Rules is a part of Australian culture, especially in the Southern States, but AFL supporters need to stop kidding themselves about the idea of world domination, or even expansion, it simply isnt going to happen.
The fact that an AFL itself study says there are only 9000 adults outside of Australia that play Aussie Rules tells the story.
Dave said | December 15th 2008 @ 6:45am | Report comment
Sharminator
Good points. Someone who has lived in Oz and around the world can give proper perspective to the topic.
Redb said | December 15th 2008 @ 7:14am | Report comment
Sharminator,
Firstly, you haven’t read all the posts here if you still think thoughts of world domination are around the corner for Aussie Rules fans.
Your views are around 10 years out of date, a quick sweep of a few internet sites is not going to suddenly make you the expert on the current international status of Australian football. Your entitled to your opinion on the chances of international expansion but its just that an opinion and a fairly shallow one.
One example: Are you up to speed on the growth of juniors playing footy in South Africa?
You talk about Europe, as far I can tell no-one has said much about Europe here. In the US there are 60 teams not 40 teams, and a whole squad of American nationals flew to Australia to play Aussie Rules at the International Cup last August. The entire growth of Aussie Rules to 60 teams has happened in the last 10 years organcially, driven by expats yes, but all in the alt 10 years.
It doesn’t mean our sport internationally will become huge overnight, but has small niches are which developing. The countries, Aussie Rules fans think there are prospects include South Africa, PNG, Ireland, Pacific Islands and maybe NZ, perhaps Canada.
Those countries are not going to make Aussie Rules their national sport ever, or be able to challenge Australia for perhaps 30 years or more, possibly ever. However, they may be able to produce players of good enough standard to play in the AFL in the next 10, 20 and 30 years and that is the point. Beyond 30 years who knows.
The fact that the AFL has never really tried to expand overseas outside the last 2 years tells the story.
Redb
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Sharminator -
in effect you’re absolutely correct – - although, on some specifics, not entirely – - but, in reality, 40 or 60 teams or clubs in the US is of minor signficance.
However – - the interest factor is more based on compare now to 5 years ago and even just 10 years ago.
The AFL has not proactively sought to grow the game (in any serious manner) until just in recent years in Sth Africa (for whatever reasons, but, in the main, it was the initiative of individuals and private businesses that established the program and the AFL has been engaged to join in. It’s not what you’d call AFL strategic policy.)
The message on the international front isn’t so much delivered by the AFL or Australian based AFL advocates.
It’s delivered by for example footy in Finland – - 2 teams kick off their ‘league’ back in 2007. Barely an Aussie expat to be seen (and I mean it, only 1 or 2 – mostly locals, and a couple of Irishmen, a kiwi and a Columbian I think!!). And yes – - purely social for adults.
But – - they managed to be so taken with the game that they raised the funds and ensured sufficient time off to get a team to Melbourne in Aug/Sep this year for the third AFL international cup. Nobody expected them to. The fact that they did is brilliant and speaks volumes…………
……….but, social footy for adults is not the prize.
In Denmark, where footy in Northern Europe/Scandanavia really is based. Denmark has one decent junior program based around Farum. Juniors are the key. We’re not talking huge numbers. But, the reality for anything worth while on the international front MUST be around allowing juniors to play the game overseas, and providing them a stage upon which to play – - – and that’s recognising that many may only play a 4-6 game season. Doesn’t really matter at that age – - they may be playing volleyball, soccer, handball, basketball – - whatever or combination of whatevers. But, if they play the game, enjoy it and get a chance to travel to Australia and represent their country in a competition against what is now a pretty diverse list of nations – - – - then heck, why wouldn’t you. The obligation then is on the AFL and the clubs to ensure that there’s a recognition that talented players could even aspire to a professional career (opportunity).
The whole thing about 20 years time………..only potentially RSA or PNG one might imagine might have a squad by then capable of for example mixing it with a good local team. However, things can change. PNG has half a dozen kids progressing through AFLQ. What might happen if 1 or 2 manage to get onto AFL lists? Maybe nothing, or, maybe a serious effort both in PNG and for AFL clubs looking there for ‘cheap’ talent via international rookies and effectively outside the draft.
GC17 and WS18 actually provide the imperative for AFL clubs to look seriously at such options. The planets are aligning as well as possible.
But – - a whole quality side from one country. Not possible.
A whole quality side from players derived from a range of countries……………might be possible.
At very least, there was a squad of junior Canadians (the Wolfpack) who toured back in August. For many of them, they’ve fallen MORE for the game, and are seriously looking to study in Australia as exchange students and continue their footy journey. These kids are the first ‘intake’ of a junior program that began in 2003. They may be the first group of fully home grown Canadian senior players, coaches, umpires, club presidents etc. Where will they take the game over the next 20 years??
Remember, footy is different enough — and we aren’t fools. We know the impediments. I follow the Danish leagues reasonably closely (for personal reasons), – and recently there was a game between Farum and Helsingborg – - without a single expat Aussie playing, coaching or officiating. That is a very significant event. WHat used to be 80% expats is in many places becoming 80% locals…………..i.e. clubs started as an expat social focus and that in the past WOULD have faded away, are now surviving and thriving with locals. It won’t happen everywhere. And the expats still need and have a right to their social focus anyway.
Redb said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
MC,
Those who deride Aussie Rules in NSW and QLD often throw in, “it’s only the expats who follow the game”. So what? That is how the majority of sports grow, from people who migrated from elsewhere and want to take their game with them. Cricket, the rugbies and soccer would not be in Australia if not for expats.
The International Cup is a perfect example of how expats can grow a game. Growth in QLD has moved beyond expats, Sydney is just starting to emerge through grass roots programs. The frustrating part is how and why it took so long for the AFL to find the right formula for growth.
Redb
Redb said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:35am | Report comment
What is also interesting about development in pockets like Farum, or the junior program in Canada, is that those communities start to grow in their own right as enclaves. This is just an expanded version of Melbourne 150 years ago in a way, makes you realise just how far the game has to go to get any meaninggful international competition having come out of the starting blocks so late and still a little isolated.
But for some to just dismiss it’s prospects altogether is either driven by an agenda or plain ignorance. The game has potential and no-one can forecast it’s future.
Redb
Koala Bear said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Sharminator,
This will be my last post on this article before I unsubscribe to it. But before I do I want to post this interview up for you to read .. It backs up all you say. A study by Professor Toby Miller from the University of California, Riverside .. I need not add anymore .. You have called it correctly….
~~~~~~~
KB
Globalization in Sport
Mick O’Regan: And finally, if globalisation is pushed through in sporting terms to its logical conclusion, and what we see is a sort of world at play, and we have teams like Arsenal in the English Premier League that maybe have one or two Englishmen, but are full of stars from literally around the world, you know, Thierry Henry, Didier Drogba, I think he plays for Chelsea though, but all these international players, does that mean that particular games that grow up in specific environments, and I’m thinking here of Australian Rules Football, which is an indigenous game, developed in the mid 19th century for Australian conditions, are those games going to become increasingly isolated, or will there be pressure on them as the AFL is trying to do, to extend the tentacles of their game into international areas?
Toby Miller: Well I’d have to say Good Luck to the AFL, which has a great product, but great products are not what make capitalism successful necessarily. It’s a wonderful sport that I love, (Go, Tigers!) but basically I don’t think the options for the entry of new sports onto the world arena are very positive, very powerful, at the level of team sports. I think there are a lot of possibilities at the level of those individual extreme sports, we’ve seen the transformation of the Winter Olympics, but basically my guess is that we’re going to see a concentration of the traditional sports and their success, I’m thinking particularly of football, Association Football, and the examples you give.
What’s going to happen, I suspect, is that increasingly, institutions like Arsenal or Chelsea are not going to be competing in contests called the English Premier League, they’re going to be in a European-wide city league, and they’re not going to sell broadcasting rights to the BBC or ITV or SBS or the ABC, they’re going to have their own either broadcast or internet networks that each club owns, and they do special deals for each time they play one another, the so-called G14 of the wealthy European clubs at the moment in football, and that will be the model.
So globalisation will be the name of the game, but funnily enough, it’ll be back to city states, it’ll be back to the period before the nation state, before the sovereign state, before empire, because that’s where the money will cluster.
Mick O’Regan: Professor Toby Miller from the University of California, ending this week’s Sports Factor.
Thanks to the production team of Andrew Davies and Jim Ussher.
Guests
Professor Toby Miller
The University of California, Riverside
Presenter
Mick O’Regan
Producer
Andrew Davies
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Redb -
that ‘enclave’ and ‘community’ element is actually an interesting one.
In the main, these days with mass transit and multi car families etc – - – a lot of people (and I’m an example), live on one side of town, work somewhere else and play their footy somewhere else.
In the main, there are many opportunities for each of those – -
however, in Helsinki for example – - there is only one option for footy (for now)…………and it becomes a tight knit ‘enclave’ (community).
The nature of things is that in the society of the dominant culture, the adherance can be taken for granted – - however, the ‘minor’ groups either unite to find strength………….or…………..like soccer over many years in Australia, they splintered themselves down ethnic lines. Presently – - if there’s an Australian footy club in a city…………….thankfully they don’t appear to splinter themselves down the lines of a West Australian one as against a Victorian one.
The other thing Sharminator forgets is the gradually increasing accessability to viewing footy on TV. Via Mhz and Setanta, more people (still not as broad as would be liked) are able to stumble across the game. In the past, they had no where to go. MOre and more often now, they can just google and will often find a footy club in their own city.
It’s not world domination,………….however, …………….achieving a level of representation to the world is a key starting point.
Realistically – -you’d say that after 3 IC’s, and a bit of grass roots encouragement here and there……………should a junior IC go ahead……..that’d almost be year 1 of the realistic (strategic) efforts to grow the game. ANd that’s half the problem – - – the AFL commission in the main will only act in the interests of the elite league – the AFL and it’s 16(+) clubs. The international equation had to wait until it generated sufficient interest.
Sharminator said | December 15th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
I admire the optimism of AFL supporters, there seems to be the idea that, if there is just a little exposure of Australian rules to the rest of the world, on cable tv, with some youth programs, etc … it will suddenly explode in playing numbers around the world.
This seems to be based on the idea that it is somehow a “superior” sport that people around the world will flock to, if they can just be exposed to it a little.
But this is the point Im trying to make … it isnt going to happen.
Why?
1. Australian rules is a Southern Australian phenomenon.
It´s mainstream popularity is isolated to Southern australian states.
Get 10 Australians in a room … maybe 4 will prefer AFL, 3 rugby league, 2 soccer and 1 rugby. Maybe my numbers are wrong but whatever .. the point is that in 150 years Aussie rules still hasnt become mainstream in Sydney or Brisbane, “fighting” against other football codes. I dont understand how you think it is suddenly going to become popular in other places when it cant win just over the fence.
It´s really a cultural thing, in Sydney AFL is seen as a Victorian thing. If there is cultural resistance in NSW, what sort of cultural resistance will there be in other countries to an Australian sport, when Australia isnt relevant to them in any other aspect of their life.
You may get small groups of people playing a “foreign sport” for fun … but you will not get any greater development.
2. Who is attracted to Aussie Rules overseas?
If you get some Ausse Rules expats to start a club overseas, organise people, get kids to go to a clinic etc, yeah you can get a few Canadians or Danes playing Aussie Rules ….
But the fact is there are still only 9000 adult players in the rest of the world (according to the AFL´s own survey) AND most of these people will be sporting dropouts, people who have opted for an alternative sport as they are not any good at the mainstream or popular sports in their country.
I´ve seen this in Sydney and the US, the guys I knew who played Aussie Rules in Sydney were those who dropped out of League or Union as they were not any good, in the US the guys I knew playing rugby started playing after dropping out of American football during or after college .. this is why Americans generally are not very good at rugby, because they are late starters and from the pool of inferior athletes.
So … out of the small number of players playing Aussie Rules, the majority won´t be sporting superstars anyway, the chances of them ever being able to play to a high level, or in Australia will be low.
3. Lack of facillities
Apart from in cricket playing countries there are no grounds available to play the sport, and even in cricketing countries, such as the UK, cricket clubs are generally opposed to their field being used by antipodeans or for an antipodean sport.
As an american convert to AFL recently said “Getting somewhere to play is always the biggest difficulty … All the fields in the U.S. are built for soccer or American football, and nine times out of 10, when you find two soccer fields next to each other, there are trees, light standards or fences in between the two,” the same article goes on to say “To combat this, clubs have developed Metro Footy, an abbreviated nine-a-side game that can be played on a smaller field.”
So this is the point .. you have people playing an imported sport, in an abbreviated version, lacking facillities, and in europe it is the same.
4. The international sports market is already saturated
Professional sports have really developed in the last 60 years, since world war II almost every country has a professional sports league of some sport.
Where I currently live, Paraguay, we have professional Soccer and Basketball leagues. There are other sports here, hockey and rugby in particular, but the established professional sports take all the sponsorship dollars.
This is what happens in the US and Europe, in the US NFL, hockey and basketball take all the sponsorship money, and there is little money available for other sports.
There is no chance of a professional or semi-professional Aussie Rules league starting anywhere in the world sometime soon, unless the AFL wants to pour in money, like the NFL did with the failed NFL Europe. The XFL was another example of an attempt at a start up league … it failed after 1 season.
For leagues to develop highly skilled players to play in the AFL .. which I guess is the point of exporting the game this is what would need to happen … at some time leagues would have to go professional, but this will never happen.
5. Sponsorship to pay for Development
For any real development of AFL in other countries beyond small social leagues you would need sponsorship and investment from business, but there is little chance of this, as again, being a minority sport and more particularly, Australian with limited appeal to locals, most local businesses would see little benefits in sponsorship of the sport.
Going to the US example “Although the game has been quickly adopted by American players, the same cannot be said of American business. There are no American corporate sponsors of USFooty. All the businesses that currently help the development of the game in the U.S. are Australian companies, or those patronized by expats”.
I just think, overall, that AFL and AFL supportes ideas of International Expansion are misguided. I dont really understand what they are hoping to achieve or gain from the exercise. I think part of it is a plan by the AFL to combat the perception that Aussie Rules is a Southern Australian sport, but when you look at the figures, the international aspect of AFL is laughable.
Ive read statments about how in 20 years maybe PNG or South Africa could challenge Australia in Aussie Rules, or exaggerations about the growth of the sport. This annoys me.
Yes AFL is growing .. but from a base of 0! Some soccer and union supporters criticised the recent Rugby League World Cup as a “farce”, for farce have a look at the AFL International Cup … apart from the US and South Africa there are not more than 600 players playing in any other country!!!
Another example there is the AFL Juniors program in China with 9000 AFL juniors !!!! but when you read the fine print there is actually only 2 senior and 1 junior team in the country with 30 kids, the other 8070 are simply kids who had a PE lesson at school once in Aussie Rules.
Wouldnt the AFL be better off to focus on expanding into NSW and Qld, and maybe PNG and New Zealand and forget trying to make up the idea that there is a serious international aspect to AFL.
Maybe it is about trying to get some money from Foreign Cable companies for broadcast rights ….
As a final word, here is some info on the often quoted AFL success in South Africa:
“The original rules of the game have been modified by the SAAFL to suit the grounds available in South Africa.
The game is played in half a normal rugby field, measuring about 50m in length, and about 40m in width. There are only two goal posts at one end of the pitch, which can also be used to play rugby. The goals stand about 5 metres apart, and have a bar parallel to the ground about 3 metres high joining the two upright poles. 4 points are awarded if the ball is kicked from within the 22 metre “D” between the posts and over the horizontal bar, and 2 points are awarded if the ball goes under the horizontal bar. If the ball is kicked from outside the 22 metre “D” over the horizontal bar, 6 points are awarded. This is termed a “Mzanzi”. The right to shoot at the goal is earned if a player marks the ball anywhere within the pitch, having caught the ball from one of their team mates kick. No umpires are present in the game, as although the game is tightly contested, the players respect the rules and enforce them accordingly themselves.”
Ok so they are playing a sport … which might have its roots in AFL .. but really its a different sport!!!
Please stop talking about internationalisation of your sport .. it isnt going to happen … for cultural, logistical and economic reasons. As a fun game for a few expats, or a novelty for local sporting dropouts, yeah its fun, but AFL is never going to grow the the levels of any other International sport .. because it isnt an international sport … it is a local phenomenon concentrated in Southern Australia.
Forgetmenot said | December 15th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Sharminator,
Your whole post is pretty much saying “there is only a teeny weeny chance of succeeding, so don’t even try”.
1. Football has not grown at phenomenal rates in NSW and QLD because there is a predjudice there passed through the generations, a predjudice not found internationally.
2. You have to start somewhere.
3. They love the game so much they are prepared to alter the rules. Same as changing the rules in the school yard when there isnt enough room, or too many people.
4. Take an empty glass.
Fill it with large rocks. Is it full? NO
Now add some stones. Is it full yet? NO
Add some sand. Is it full yet? NO
Add some water. Is it ful yet? NO
Add some colouring. Is it full yet? NO
My point being, there is always room for more. There are plenty of people here in Australia who dont play any sport on a regular basis, same as overseas.
5. Here is one club
http://www.bostondemons.com/sponsors.php
As the game grows there will be more chance of sponsorship from corporate America. We are starting small and growing the game from there.
The International Cup was named as such, so that it is distinguised from a World Cup which showcases the best talent in the world. The International Cup is aimed at development.
I looked on http://www.aflsouthafrica.org for the rule changes you mentioned. Do you have a link i could read?
All in all Sharminator, if you dont think, or want, football to grow internationally then that is your opinion. A lot of people, and not just Australians, are passionate about the sport and know that the game can grow internationally. Yes we are starting with baby steps, but that is how we all started and we are now taking large steps.
Albert Ross said | December 15th 2008 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Sharminator
All these “The Little Engine that Could” s responding to you. How funny.
The real world is different.
The closest parallel I can find that makes your point quite nicely is that of Gaelic Football which has not broken through anywhere it has been transplanted despite years of effort.
Baseball is another case in point. It has been transplanted successfully in several countries but most such efforts have only amounted to a hill of beans. Even in Japan the game has only survived professionally because of the huge subsidies from the proprietors.
Redb said | December 15th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
So Sharminator your not a fan of Aussie Rules, as you clearly don’t count yourself as one.
Albert Ross,
Your just petty fool for even posting, you have nothing to say but deride other posters. What a pissweak effort.
Redb
Pippinu said | December 15th 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Alberto
Weren’t you advocating recently that the majority of Australians should give up their keen interest in their own game in favour of games such as baseball and basketball?
You seem to know a fair bit about baseball (a game towards which the vast majority of Australians don’t give a tinker’s cuss).
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
ALbert Ross -
thus far, no one has seriously endeavoured to ‘transplant’ the game of Australian football.
It came as more of a shock to the AFL than anything that there was suddenly an international contingent worth doing something about and that had a contingent of folk lobbying on it’s behalf.
No one has talked about serious professional leagues overseas……………..I’m not sure that anyone of the AFL advocates would seriously want that.
What we are talking about it further facilitation of a cute little niche sport.
It’s strength is that it is Australian only – - but, there’s a level of weakness that can be strengthened by a heightened international profile………..
…………there is value to Australia in a higher profile for this game……………as, to enjoy a uniquely Australian travel experience, people should come to Australia during out winter, travel to the GBR, the red centre and to the ‘G……………..all experiences that can’t really be had elsewhere…………….oh well, there are reefs and deserts elsewhere………….but, no where else do they play footy on an oval with no off-side, no x-bar and take speccies and the like like they do in Australia………………or……………..we could be ‘just another national franchise of a global culture/sporting brand’.
Millster said | December 15th 2008 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Albert – I can’t believe you’re still here.
Pip – I say this as your friend I hope you realise, but I think you need to consider carefully when you write about what it is to be Australian or unAustralian, both in general and especially about a sporting code which is not national. This train of thought is one that I, and I imagine a number of others, have significant difficulties with
DaSilva – your writing on the 13th and yesterday was magic. Excellent points and while I was in the Hunter Valley I thoroughly endorse them.
MC/RedB/all – the thing that most saddens me about this debate is that it is predicated on a lack of creativity. It seems to me that the logic that one always wants international expansion as the only measure of success it totally untested. AFL has an amazing strength in its core markets. It says it is “the Aussie game” and “different” and a cultural icon yet it just wants to follow the path and measures of success of other global sports. Surely there are other ways of leveraging AFL’s strength than chasing the ‘holy grail’ of converting new geographies to the code.
Millster said | December 15th 2008 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Mc – careful not to overstate there my friend. The majority of the world would see Broncos Vs Roosters at Suncorp as equally intrinsically “Aussie” as they would see Carlton V Collingwood at the ‘G. AFL doesn’t own the entirety of the “Australia’s own sport” tag….
Redb said | December 15th 2008 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Millster,
I’m not followng you. This topic is about overseas expansion and some of the reason of the past as to why it has not happened.
Redb
Millster said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Redb – yes and my thought (though sorry if it did not come through clearly) is why should that be a concern? Why could AFL not consolidate its strength in the southern states of Australia and at a lesser level in the ‘newer’ states of NSW and QLD? I guess I am saying that the assumption that overseas expansion is a worthy goal for the AFL in the first place is questionable. It might be a lower risk and higher success strategy to remain a quintesentially domestic sport in Australia and to put all its energies into that goal.
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Millster -
not ‘converting’ so much as installing.
NOt to change windows to linux……..
simply to install an alternative application so to speak………….and why? well………….why not? because, there’s no football game in the world quite like it (other than the IR game which we secretely hope falls in a heap lest it be the one that actually takes off!).
suncorp – - doesn’t quite have the history of the MCG………….and is built on a cemetary………bad karma.
Pippinu said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
Millster
I accept your advice, but at the same time I hope you would see that anything I say along those lines is in the context of Alberto encouraging the majority of Australians to forego their interest in their very own game in exchange for focusing on basketball and baseball.
Now you yourself have already mentioned the indigenous game as representing a cultural icon – if that is true, then surely it is unAustralian to promote the elimination of that cultural icon? Is it so terrible to say that? You may hate Holden cars, but you don’t necessarily wish the forcible removal of Holdens from our roads. You may dislike meat pies immensely, but you are hardly going to promote their banning. My might find Kangaroos to be a tedious pest, but you are hardly going to promote their outright destruction on a national level.
It’s one thing not to have an interest in an icon, just as it’s fair enough to have freedom of religious worship, but it’s quite another to activiely promote the elimination and desctruction of the same.
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
btw – Millster -
the AFL expenditure equation comparison of international spending by the AFL themselves vs domestic illustrates that they are 99% following your suggestion………..in fact, probably closer to 100% than 99%…….
Pippinu said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Millster
back on topic – to be perfectly honest the bulk of footy fans couldn’t give a damn about overseas projects, just as they don’t give a damn about state games.
When it comes down to it, all of redb, MC and I would put our clubs a million miles ahead of any of this peripheral stuff we occasionally dabble in.
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Nah – Pippinu – the only enlightened folk were those who imported rabbits to try to push out the local fauna and allow Austrlia to be just like Europe…………….
…………although, there were some who realised that they got out of there for a reason and didn’t want constant reminders!
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
although, Pip……tonight, for the first time………..I’m going to wear my Danish Vikings footy jumper to footy training…………..
Towser said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
What not a jumper representing those murderous bastards who spent their days murdering pillaging & raping.
Better find a one representing a country that never did this.
There again how does naked training go in Aussie Rules?
Pippinu said | December 15th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
footy training in December?
Forgetmenot said | December 15th 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Rec footy training perhaps.
Or maybe he plays in an overseas league
Michael C said | December 15th 2008 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Towser -
I hear it’s been done……..but never seen it myself (not that I’d look!)
Pipp -
well, I’m heading off now, a bit late, make a token appearance and remind people of the xmas wine packs!!
Forgetmenot -
rec footy – - -nah, that’d be too hard for me!!!
‘night all.
Forgetmenot said | December 15th 2008 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
I thought this would tie in nicely with the topic:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,24796337-19742,00.html
Very bad news for international football if it is cancelled. Im thinking of drafting a letter to the AFL advising it to push ahead with the game.
Dave said | December 15th 2008 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot
Sign of the times…better send a cheque with your letter
Wouldn’t expect the AFL to pay now would we.
Slippery Jim said | December 15th 2008 @ 7:55pm | Report comment
“it’s quite another to activiely promote the elimination and desctruction of the same”
Fine words and true, Pippinu, and in the interests of parity, I expect you to soundly lecture Redb for these comments he made on the sportal blog in February;
(Redb) “We need to stomp our foot back on that foreign’s game throat, the two can never survive, soccer’s new found arrogance is proff of that”.
(Redb) “The fans of our great Australian game [AFTL] need to rail against the foreign game. Good luck with the World Cup bid, soccer has a habit of disappointing in this country long may that tradition continue.”
Then again, since your agenda seems the same then I expect no such lecture for your maaayyte will be forthcoming now will it…
Norm said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
good detective work there Slippery Jim.
Slippery Jim said | December 15th 2008 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
I never forget a colourful turn of phrase, Norm.
Pippinu said | December 15th 2008 @ 9:55pm | Report comment
sj
I clearly don’t support redb’s comments (although you haven’t actually provided the context – it could well have been a humours obiter dictum for all I know). It wouldn’t be the first time you have recalled a few words out of context.
And the correct spelling is: “maayte”.
l'arriere said | December 16th 2008 @ 1:35am | Report comment
Forgetmenot
It appears that many of your interlocutors have focussed on the boring old argument concerning the nomenclature of football vs soccer instead of mentioning the real issues which make AFL an unrivalled code in Melbourne but one which will never be replicated in any other country in the world – suburban history, peer group pressure and AFL media dominance . I also take issue with your ratings of stronger, higher and faster to compare the various football codes in which you place AFL at the top, or close to the top, in each category. As a former Rugby (Union) football player and now supporter but whose first years of any football were playing for Manuka Aussie Rules teams (sub-atoms and atoms) in Canberra when local crowds of 11,000 would watch the senior Grand Final between Manuka and Eastlake at Manuka Oval featuring the likes of Alex Jesaulenko (who went to my school ), I’ve seen Aussie Rules (AFL) fall from a posiition of complete dominance to an also-ran (number 4 after union/league/soccer). The Victorian (Melbourne) public servants who staffed the Commonwealth Public Service in the 1950s and the early 1960s, and who only had exposure to the one sport in Melboune (players of other codes in other states were either bum sniffers or practised wog ball) were forced by their children in Canberra to either support the Cosmos (soccer), the Raiders (league) or the Brumbies (union) or forget sport altogether and focus on gardening and visiting craft galleries.
This has continued to today. The bright young graduates from Melbourne who join the Commonwealth Public Service spend their first few months around the water cooler talking about Carlton but quickly learn that nobody in Canberra talks sport at work. When the first of the Melbourne AFL sides is lured to Canberra in winter for the season’s three blockbusters these same graduates are quick to say they don’t follow North Melbourne, Footscray or Melbourne and therfore won’t be attending. So a crowd of 7,000 will attend unless the Swans and their expatriate Melbourne fans in Sydney make the trip south to get it to the 11,000 mark – a crowd that was normal for two Canberra suburban club sides in the 1950s and the early 1960s. Andrew Demitriou and Caroline Wilson are then quick to say that Canberra doesn’t have a “footy culture” (despite the fact that the two of AFL’s greatest players – Alex Jesaulenko and James Hird – grew up and learned the game in Canberra). I can’t imagine that any country (or city) overseas would have the same ingredients for growth of AFL that Canberra had but has now relinquished.
As to your criteria, I was seized by your comments in the stronger category you rated AFL players at an 8 and Rugby (union) at a 9 but in the faster category it was 8 for AFL to 4 for Rugby. Several years ago at Canberra airport I saw the Sydney Swans alight for one of their blockbusters at Manuka Oval at the same time as the ACT Schoolboys Rugby team returned from winning the Australian Schoolboys Rugby championship. The contrast was amazing – the Sydney Swans looked like a bunch of schoolboys in comparison. This highlighted the fact of the number of Pacific Islanders playing the game (and league). It testifies to the attributes required to play Rugby – an explosive sport where power, strength and speed is a premium – surely Olympian attributes (It was also laughable to read in the Melbourne press that the no. 2 AFL draft pick this year – a Fijian from Western Australia – had to explain that he was surprisingly tall for a Fijian and that was why he was ruck man – if anyone has seen the fabulous Fijian Rugby players you would know that they are very tall and very fast – they are not Melanesians from PNG). And on the second criiterion – talking of speed – is there any one in the AFL faster than Joe Rococoko or Brian Habana?
That brings me to the crux of my argument. The myopia of the AFL press in Melbourne – and its effects its citizens – and why AFL will never be an international game – there is no sense of proportion or acknowledgement of other countries’ interests or pride in their sports. I well remember when Wayne Shelford’s champion All Blacks’ team visited Australia in the late 1980s and the Age journalist assigned to cover the match against Victoria (I think it was a she and the article appeared about 10 pages from the back) explained the All Blacks’ characteristics – they were nearly as tough as Hawthorn she wrote!
Finally the gong must go the the Age journalist who wrote on the eve of the AFL Grand Final that Buddy Franklin was a greater athlete than Usain Bolt and would have beaten him in the 100 metres final at the Beijing Olympics if he hadn’t spent all his life kicking a sherrin.
Melbourne please grow up!
Slippery Jim said | December 16th 2008 @ 8:39am | Report comment
http://forum.sportal.com.au/yaf_postst18677p6_When-will-Kennett-stop-flapping-his-gums-Now-on-soccer.aspx
Read the context for yourself, if you don’t trust me.
Michael C said | December 16th 2008 @ 9:21am | Report comment
l’arriere -
I reckon you miss a few points -
what you’ve spoken of in Canberra is that the kids got lured to the ‘local’ Canberra teams in broader ‘national’ competitions. The VFL/AFL was negligent in effectively ignoring Canberra – - and the reality is that kids will gravitate towards the ’sexy’ local representative team/franchise (even if primarily in name only)- – - -ever wonder why the AFL is desperate to get into the Gold Coast – - because, they can’t afford to do a Canberra there.
re the faster – - I don’t think Forgetmenot is talking about man vs man from the codes. Higher – I don’t think he’s talking about the individual heights: FAster, I don’t think he’s implying that AFL players are faster runners than anyone else.
It’s the game play. AFL – especially these days – is a very fast game, certainly faster as a whole than either Rugby code – - that’s not to say that for a given player in RU/RL breaking the lines and sprinting 60 metres to fall over a line that he doesn’t hit a speed that no one in an AFL game will hit. I doubt that’s the point.
re HIgher = = I think it’s more to do with the encouragement to jump (rather than be ‘lifted’ with an inglorious team ‘wedgie’!). AFL is a game of running, jumping, sprinting, etc……..look, there’s the odd nice photo of a soccer player leaping high for a header (if you like the ‘grace’ of someone using their head to propel a ball – this may work for you, but it’s not an ‘outstanding feature’ of the game), in RL we’ve seen some Melb Storm players who have trained with AFL clubs and been learning the skill of taking a ’speccie’, and have on about 2 or 3 occassions managed to successfully transcend it into a match situation…………but, it’s not an ‘outstanding feature’ of the game.
btw – what’s to say that Buddy Franklin might NOT have such potential………..that’s why the AOC would love for Aust Footy to be ‘eradicated’…….suddenly all the athletes who opt to go with footy will stick with athletics…………….(it’s easy for the AOC to pick on the AFL, because, the other footy codes offer an international dimension that makes it harder for the AOC to whinge about their ‘attracting’ of potential olympic athletes………….and soccer of course IS an Olympic sport…………..is an inefficient one for a country like Australia, as team sports use up say a squad of 15-20 ‘athletes’ for at best a single medal…………..that’s why Australia loves swimming and would love more athletes to stick with track and field other than just the walks!!!!)
Michael C said | December 16th 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
I can report – after all the recent rains in Melbourne……….the footy oval was a treat, ’twas a pleasure to run laps………….well………….jog 1 lap as a token warm up after turning up a little late.
but, anyway……….just hoping we get some autumnal rains for once this year so that the ground has a chance to present well come the start of the season…………………but………….this is significant to the topic………..
and the assumption of the correct size and dimensions range of a ground for footy – as, the vast ovals are a bugger to water and keep green, and require all the more expense should a super synthetic grass option be opted for.
I still reckon the world is crying out for a decent tackling, kicking, running, contested, no off-side version of footy – - I’d love to review the INternational Rules game and deconstruct elements of it that are too allied to the Gaelic side of things – - and come up with the rectangle pitch variant of Aust footy that could seriously be taken to the world (on whatever scale – - i.e. I’m not suggesting a TOP down approach!!!! apart from anything else, the AFL can’t afford a ‘top down’ planting of a team/league anywhere in the world)
Forgetmenot said | December 16th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment
l’arriere,
I agree with all of what Michael C said. I would also like to add that i have lived in Canberra recently and yes there are a lot of football fans who don’t go to the AFL games because there team is not playing. But there are plenty more who do go to them.
The biggest sport in Canberra would certainly be Union. Brumbies supporters are seen everywhere you go.
I agree with you about the Victorian media. They should be allowed to publish whatever amount of football stories they wish, but they are thorugh the writing of some stories making it hard for the game to grow.
Pippinu said | December 16th 2008 @ 10:40am | Report comment
sj
Needless to say I didn’t read the countless posts – but nevertheless – I’m shocked.
Michael C said | December 16th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
and so, Mike Pyke is officially a Sydney Swans rookie………..now to see what that does for the profile of the game in Canada and amongst their Rugby Union community too.
Slippery Jim said | December 16th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Anyhow, I got the impression Redb wrote that on a bad day, the first time I read it I was shocked, but I don’t hold it against him as these days he seems to have become more balanced, I was just being cheeky when I posted it here. It was unfair of me to bring it up again ten months later, really.
Pippinu said | December 16th 2008 @ 11:29am | Report comment
sj
10 Hail Marys and a couple of the other important ones.
Slippery Jim said | December 16th 2008 @ 11:35am | Report comment
For me or Redb? I’m the wrong religion for that business anyhow…
Pippinu said | December 16th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
You’ve got nothing to worry about then! (I think redb is of the wrong religion as well)
I imagine you may have remembered soemthing you’d written sometime, somewhere, maybe half sloshed, and now you’re praying like hell that no one remembers it!
Slippery Jim said | December 16th 2008 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
I felt a bit guilty for being overly critical of some guy named Frank on TWG blog, since I had thought that he was the person who has posted eight or nine comments under my username and location (based on my checking who had posted before/after the comment around the time it occured). From his later comments it seemed that he genuinely was not the guilty party. However all I did was have a go at him for poor spelling (he says he is a published novelist), which I probably would have done anyway, it was more the ill feelings I regretted. Pretty much all of my comments I stand by.
Pippinu said | December 16th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
that’s it? call the police!
phil said | December 16th 2008 @ 8:55pm | Report comment
I think australian football is a good game, apart from the awarding of a point for missing a goal and length of game time.
I know it has to start somewhere but the AFL doesnt have the money yet to pull it off. The NFL tried in europe and failed. The AFL cannot risk undermining the local product for the sake of moving internationally. Or else you will be left with nothing.
What the NFL has now done is to play 1 regular season game in London and that has been a success. People want to see the real deal and not some phoney. The AFL should put a regular season game that means something in a country close by. Its also the reason that the EPL wants to play a 39th game around the world too.
I think the AFL realise that the globalisation of sport has meant smaller codes will find it more difficult. The NRL is now under attack from European League and Union clubs as they have more money than aussie clubs. You have to fear for the future of Rugby League in the next 20 yrs i think.
Cricket also has entered this too. Test match cricket will soon be a thing of the past if the IPL really takes hold with the money it provides.
Money unfortunately is now what drives sport globally, and like i mentioned before Australia just cant compete.
Sharminator said | December 17th 2008 @ 3:40am | Report comment
I agree with you phil, this is the point I was trying to get across … it is very difficult to grow a “new” game in a foreign market, if not impossible. The hundreds of millions spent on NFL Europe over 20 years, show this.
AFL is fine as it is in the australian market, this is where it needs to compete, good luck to it.
The wider point for me is that even if the AFL is only spending a small amount on clinics in South Africa, Canada etc and its International Cup, I think the publicity about “the international game” is deluding its supporters.
People with stars in their eyes talk about AFL in the US or Denmark, about the potential in South Africa …
The topic of the lead article for this forum “reasons for poor international AFL growth” shows the delusion. There is an assumption that there is some reason, some failure somewhere along the line which has led to AFL not being an international sport, and that this can be corrected by different policies now.
As I keep trying to say, AFL is an Australian bred sport, that is its strength and weakness. In Australia it is strong, and part of the culture in several states, it will never die in Australia because of this strength.
But on the other hand it is never going to expand internationally for cultural and economic reasons.
Sports in exactly the same position are Gaelic Football, Hurling, and American Football. The identity of these sports is so enmeshed with their cultural background that they will never take off in other countries., like AFL a few people may play for fun in other countries … but it will never get beyond this.
Having AFL social leagues in other countries is fine, but AFL supporters need to stop being deluded that by 2020 another country could challenge an Australian National team at AFL (as I read someone say) or that other countries are going to start becoming a source of top level players .. for the reasons see my earlier posts ..
Albert Ross said | December 17th 2008 @ 10:22am | Report comment
The NFL way is to commission a brand new website to nurture an emerging market… http://www.nfluk.com/
Norm said | December 17th 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
“I still reckon the world is crying out for a decent tackling, kicking, running, contested, no off-side version of footy”…which world would that be Michael C?
Michael C said | December 18th 2008 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Phil -
money has been driving sports for quite some time.
Recall the Rugby league schisms in UK and Australasia from 1895 to 1908.
- – - – -
the difference for AFL vs NRL is that AFL does not yet face losing players OUT once within. Not to an allied code but competitive league, nor to a non-allied code.
Gaelic on the other hand does lose players out – - to soccer, and rugby and AFL. The AFL and GAA though have attempted to define their relationship.
See what happens on that front.
Forgetmenot said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Sharminator,
Football is starting with a grass roots approach in the countries it is expanding to. The NFL by and large started with a commercial top down approach hoping for a flow on effect.
It is a possibility that in 20-50 years time another country will one day have a football side strong enough to versus Australia. You also have to remember that Australia only has 20 million people, and there are 4 football codes vying for those people. It will not take a whole lot to form a side capable of beating Australia.
There are reasons that football has never grown Internationally, otherwise there would be nothing. Perhaps that reason is, because no one really cared about expanding the game, perhaps not, that is what we are discussing. The article was also aimed towards perhaps finding a weakness that is stopping the game from expanding yes.
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
That’s a good point about the NFL model. In truth, even in America, it is basically a game played professionally and in college, and outside of that, there ain’t a whole lot of grassroots stuff – so if there’s no grass roots stuff in America, it’s unlikely you are going to get it anywhere else.
This is worth mentioning one more time – what little exists overseas (and it is very little) has happened with zero involvement from the AFL – zero (but that’s slowly changing, e.g. in South Africa and PNG).
It should also mentioned that aussie rules is also the national sport of Nauru (but that doesn’t count for too much).
Lastly, MC might be able to confirm here, but about 10 years ago, Denmark became the first country outside of the Oceania region to start up a junior comp – not sure how it’s going (if indeed it is going). They did that off their own bat – no Australian involvement (indeed aussie rules in Denmark has had only a tiny bit of ex-pat involvement).
For those interested in finding out more, check out this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_around_the_world
Dave said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Interesting that the AFL have pulled the pin on the NAB Cup game in South Africa…NAB pulled out and so no sponsorship and it seems they weren’t prepared to put up the money themselves? Not a great signal of intentionfor the overseas expansion plans.
Michael C said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
the DAFL juniors are the Farum Cats – - Jim Campion kicked them off, his son Chris (a dual citizen, but spent his life in Denmark) actually graduated to represent the DAFL Vikings at the recent IC 08.
The club has now sent a junior side to Australia three times – 2000, 2003 and 2006, where they have played at the MCG in front of 70,000 spectators at AFL matches. In return, Farum has received visits from Geelong College. A reciprocal and ongoing arrangement has sprung up where the two bodies visit each other every three years.
The junior experiment in Denmark has begun to spread, with the Slagslunde Tigers having sprung up in the small village just 12 kms west of Farum, and teams also over in Malmö and Landskrona in Sweden.
They are in preparation for another trek to Australia in 2009 (if you check their website, amongst all the danish, there is a tap titled “Oz 2009″!!!).
There’ve been ‘internationals’ for juniors involving the Brits and Denmark and Sweden.
The question is – - is this just the beginning? or is this ‘as good as it gets’??
From my perspective, given the serious sounds coming regarding a juniors international cup – - then, it might just be only the beginning.
Forgetmenot said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
I thought i read somewhere that the US had a junior comp going on. Or perhaps it was just a junior development program.
That is very interesting with the Denmark information. I wonder if Princess Mary had, or has, a hand in helping it along.
Dave,
Yes, another sign that the AFL is not fully united in its International bid. Looking at previous history it reminds you alot of the push into Sydney and Brisbane.
Redb said | December 18th 2008 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Dave,
Not necessarily. I don’t mind that the AFL takes these decisions, it looks to be fairly conscious of keeping costs in check like any other sensible business. 2009 looms as a basket case for everyone in business, better to be cautious than spend at times when the reward and interest maybe low due to prevailing economic times.
This further strengthens arguments made in the past on the Roar by AFL fans that the AFL is not hellbent on international expansion at any cost.
Redb
Dave said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Redb
Err didn’t the AFL get a $700m tv deal? and yet they wont spend a few thousand to spread the game? Shows their disregard for any o/s interest. Perhaps they just feel it ain’t worth it or maybe pre sales of tickets and interest weren’t so good?
Michael C said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Dave -
it’s mainly an indicator that playing exhibition (even a nab cup game) is only of so much value at present – - any monies spent over there is better at the grass roots level.
If the sponsors aren’t seeing value in the hosting etc – - -then no point doing it just as a grand but wasted gesture.
I had read that the AFL would’ve had no worries going back to Dubai…………and maybe they ought to have looked more at that as a regular ‘trade related’ fixture!!!! But – - it’s a lot of effort for the outcomes compared to for example the domestic value of playing games at home.
Forgetmenot said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
I myself am a big supporter of playing the entire NAB cup overseas. Even if it was just in one country to reduce costs, the future benefits to the game would be enormous.
Yes the crowds would be poor, but if they turned it into a television event in Australia, more money could be raised that way.
Redb said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
I repeat, Get a life! Dave.
Redb
Dave said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Redb
You’re right!
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
At least the AFL doesn’t put its hand out for Government assistance.
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Except of course for those annual ASC payments from the taxpayer, and the millions poured into their administration and training facilities, youth and indiginous AFL programs and local council handouts, of course Pippu, all of which the AFL pocket quite gladly
Dave said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Pip
So the AFL with its $700m cheque stuck in the back rocket is not interested in laying out a brass razoo to spread the gospel? Perhaps add this to your list of reasons for the game’s lack of international profile. If the AFL dont care why should you guys?
BTW Well said SJ we know the AFL through their clubs get tens of $millions in handouts from various govts…not that l’m complaining…but just nice to be acknowledged occassionally.
Redb
Ok ok l’m working on getting one…
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
SJ
Now do you have to respond so aggressively?
I actually had in mind Athletics Australia – there’s an article in the Age today, I’m sure you can look it up online. The Commonwealth used to make up 49% of their revenue in 2004 and now it’s a staggering 85%!!
That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about.
Whereas $450,000 for an indigenous program (that is more of an assistance to Government outcomes than AFL outcomes) is barely 0.1% of AFL revenues.
Can you see the difference?
85% to 0.1%.
Let me tell you – that’s a very big difference.
Of course, I’m not in a position to comment on other sports.
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
Come on, my little winky man is a friendly little peace loving dude, not in the lease aggressive. A little tease, and nothing more Pippu.
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
It is true the AFL are almost entirely self sufficient when it comes to their funding. Not sure why they need to accept additional government money each year.
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Dave, just like the banks and a few other industries, the AFL will definitely be practising austerity for the whole of 2009.
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
SJ
what – the $450,000 for indigenous programs – it was almost foisted on the AFL – who else is going to fly the banner?
Why haven’t the FFA put up their hand for the paltry $450,000 (probably because it actually costs ten times that to put into effect).
Forgetmenot said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Football recieves money to partially cover programs that will directly contribute to the community. The stadium upgrades are in the public interest to increase the amount of people able to see each match. The training centre upgrades are also used by the community.
Football is heavily involved in community projects, and hence the government gives them money to help them to do this. I would love for the government to give funding to grow the game internationally, but unfortunately the Rudd government is too short sighted and only has the aim of getting re-elected.
Michael C said | December 18th 2008 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim -
as per any organisation (or any household) – - it’s very easy for the costs to consume the available budget.
However, the AFL has managed to put aside a bit of a future fund.
However, last year I think it was Willie Mason who discovered that the NRL players were relatively higher paid than their AFL counterparts – - i.e. as a % of game revenue, the NRL players were paid more.
Note also – the AFL was the first, and the NRL has come along finally – to implement an illicit drugs testing program………..now up to around 1200 tests a year (on top of the 500 or so WADA tests). These tests aren’t cheap – -
now – I’m sure it’d be nice if the AFL didn’t have to cough up money because the community is horrified should a back pocket return from an end of season break with a trace of whacky weed in his blood.
The AFL we know is pumping a massive amount of money into growing the game north of the Murray. That’s grass roots spending, developing infrastructure – to the benefit of the communities and sharing organisations.
Most of these projects though are co-funded – - and fair enough. That’s how these things work. The AFL pays a portion, local and higher tier govt contributes, private and ngo stakeholders contribute – - whether it be pure cash or contra.
check out http://www.clontarffootball.com/ to see a project that the govts co fund along with the AFL and other stakeholders.
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Fair points, forgetmenot, however the AFL still received taxpayer money. I don’t care, just sayin’…
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Fair points, Michael C, it sounds like the similar concept to topping up your super (something I am familiar with as I work in Wealth Management).
Forgetmenot said | December 18th 2008 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Also, football is a major revenue raiser for the government. They should receive their fair share proportion back for it.
Koala Bear said | December 18th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Dave,
after living in the wilderness without any Australian Football for over 32 years of no appearances on the world stage with a succession of World Cup failures on the big world stage.. I’m now pleased I can inform you that I have a new Life and Lovin’ it …
Slippery Jim,
I am not emmbarest in the least… It’s the only right thing to do … For the good of Australia and the Asian region …
I’m just pleased that the government just keeps pouring the dough in the direction of the FFA; keep in comin’ Kev2018..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
KB, the only thing you should be “embarrassed” about is your spelling of embarrassed lol!
Koala Bear said | December 18th 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
I’m not even embarrassed about that .. I do my best with my two fingers and blue cataracts..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Wow what happened to your fingers, was it a land mine during Vietnam??? And how the devil do you do those smiley emoticons with the extra big grin? I am embarrassed to say I can’t work it out
Koala Bear said | December 18th 2008 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
If you must know, during the sixties I used my two fingers, one to wash the inside of my mouth, the other to wash the anal passage, and both got suck whilst in the the shower recess.. Fortunately after pulling hard with equal force, I managed to free both.. However, now fortunately or unfortunately those two working body parts (mouth and anus) however you want to look at it, are interchangeable like yours …
To get the big smile use your cursor over the smile emoticon and you will see the keys ( : and D ) isn’t it a beaut ..? I can thank the mad sixties for that and the two fingers….
just don’t tell Oikee…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | December 18th 2008 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
SJ,
should be “got stuck”
~~~~~~~
KB
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 7:19pm | Report comment
Excellent KB, ta for that, I will have to wait until tomorrow to use that emoticon as folks are taking the brick bats to me today for some reason no matter what I say
Koala Bear said | December 18th 2008 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim,
we are Chelsea men, we can take it..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | December 18th 2008 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
:-#
Slippery Jim said | December 18th 2008 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
Very true KB, at times like this I ask myself “what would Vinnie Jones do?”
Michael C said | December 21st 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Interestingly – footy in France is on the march – - (from worldfootynews.com)
Last December we reported on the formation of the Bordeaux Bombers – France’s third club. Since then, 2008 has seen the creation of the Montpellier Fire Sharks on the Mediterranean coast and the rebirth of footy in northern Catalonia, with the creation of the Perpignan Tigers.
This month sees the French footballing fraternity welcome new clubs in the cities of Aix-en-Provence and Toulouse. The Aix Rascasses will be the first club in France’s south-east, the name “Rascasse” translating as Scorpionfish in English – a venomous inhabitant of the waters around Marseille and the Côte d’Azur.
The Toulouse Crocodiles will bring footy to another of France’s main centres. With Toulouse, Montpellier and Perpignan all within a few hours’ drive of each other, and Bordeaux, Aix and the Catalan league not too much further in either direction, the future looks promising for an area that only 12 months ago had no clubs at all.
There have been other stories of native frenchmen seeking to grow the game in New Caledonia………..it’s interesting times when growth of the game is taken OUT of the hands of ex-pat Aussies…………that’s something most critics and naysayers don’t count on………..that footy starts establishing a life of it’s own.
Dave said | December 21st 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
MC
” footy in France is on the march ” Hard to see how it is on the march when metaphorically it aint got out of nappy’s yet!
Albert Ross said | December 21st 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la footie
Norm said | December 21st 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
you said it Albert
Pippinu said | December 21st 2008 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
Néanmoins, elle y a certainement un je ne sais quoi
Redb said | December 21st 2008 @ 4:49pm | Report comment
to the Naysayers, dreamers, denyers (sic) and to all who begrudge and hate my footy, all I can say is:
Chewy on ya boot
Redb
The1 and only master said | December 21st 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
Might want to listen to a song from Paul Kelly
From little things big things grow.
To you Soccer followers, Paul Kelly is from Australia so you may not have heard of him.
Michael C said | December 21st 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
1and only,
careful…….those folk who reckon there’s only one true soccer, and seemingly are annoyed that Australians call their brews ‘beer’ and their vehicles ‘cars’……because………they weren’t ‘invented’ here………they are the same one’s who deny that Australians can create ‘music’, as, that is another thing NOT invented in Australia……..
Dave -
on a relative scale………it’s on the march………….and the reality in the past there have been short lived incarnations of single clubs here and there, but, never on this scale before, that, aligned with footy already in Spanish catalonia as well, and the gradually growing ‘Euro’ scene – - – there’s something for these individually only so significant happenings to attach to.
And – - – these days, you often see new clubs set up based around their facebook page first, then the website as the club becomes more established. This is the ‘brave new world’ for small fry…………that (oh, Cook just got out, ……what a feast of test cricket!!!)……….that illustrates how the power of the internet is the wild card to grow games that otherwise would be 100% inaccessible in closed football markets such as many of those soccer/rugby nations…………
Dave said | December 21st 2008 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
MC and One and whatever… in bed together LOL.
Are these the same people that on one thread deride HAL for being small and meaningless (in the context of that behometh AFL?) and on the other espouse the makings of what???…bit of park AFL in some far off land. From the way you carry on didn’t think there was any need for expansion as you have it all here??? Seem to change your tune from thread to thread.
If you think HAL is small in the context of Oz sport then think of AFL overseas??? Get over it.
BTW What makes you two the determiners of what is Australain and what isn’t…sort putting yourselves up on a pedestal there boys…
Love to hear what your definition of what a true Aussie is as you are obviously experts?
Albert Ross said | December 21st 2008 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
It rather reminds of the way they all reamed their creams during the 2002 WC when that Swedish player used to make the two handed “goal” gesture like the one the goal umpires make. From that celebration gesture it was suggested that world domination was near at hand.
I don’t understand Pi pi’s line. He’s a blogger on au.442. He never mentions all the successes of the one true game over there.
Michael C said | December 22nd 2008 @ 5:25am | Report comment
Dave -
Galdsic to see no code vs code point scoring going on here??? ahem MC
Dave, Norm and Albert Ross – - – you get what you deserve and you got each other………congratulations. ’bout says it all really. A big ball of excrement rolling down a hill acts a bit like a cartoon snow ball……..you’re all drawn into it.
Pippinu said | December 22nd 2008 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Here you go Alberto – here’s a thread I started on 442 that received a mixed reception (which is fine):
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=9666
It’s called “Anonymous Footy Liaisons”.
In any event, I’ve said many times before, 99.9% of Australian Football fans only give a damn about their club – everything else is peripheral.
The1 and only master said | December 22nd 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
dave,
Poor soul, only has 1 answer to Australian Footballs dominance over soccer in Australia, it’s always Aussie Rules is nothing overseas.
Mate, we live in Australia, this web site is Australian. If you hate the thought of things developed in Australia shown to the world maybe you should change your citizenship.
BTW if you think pints of larger, jumping up and down in the ‘terraces’ and soccer are Australian you need to take a good hard look at yourself.
Michael C said | January 13th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Humourous – “Little wonder that the Geelong Football Club has changed its website address from gfc.com.au to geelong cats.com.au, when the GFC on most people’s minds at present is the Global Financial Crisis.”
btw – interesting to see Ben Graham and Sav Rocca going head to head in a play off for the Super Bowl – - – not far off now, first Aussie in a Super Bowl. Just shows there’s solid hope for all aging AFL players to ‘kick on’ in the US.
Michael C said | January 15th 2009 @ 10:12am | Report comment
a beaut article from journo Peter Wilson about the first games of footy in Japan back in ‘87 -
Note – - driven NOT so much by the VFL or Australian interests – - it was driven by Fuji TV.
Wilson was called upon for seemingly no better reason than he was Australian (admitting Judo was his game, not footy) – - and coached the first 2 squads of players from “..Keio and Waseda universities, the most distinguished of the nation’s 600 private universities. Sporting contests between them are like Oxford-Cambridge matches.”
Interesting, this paragraph
The VFL turned down my appeals for help because it was only interested in selling TV rights to the Japanese, not in getting them to play the game. The Australian embassy was also no help because it could see no trade advantage in having a bunch of kids playing our game, even though I pointed out these were elite universities and the students could one day be influential.
Interesting, because – Wilson goes on to describe that it wsa only via the sport that he developed real friendships in the social to and fro of Japanese society/culture.
He writes of a “Out blared the Coodabeen Champions. A car full of kids who could barely speak English began singing along with “I’m DiPierdomenico, all the way from head to toe…” When they also knew the words to the song Never Turn Right at Burke Road, Malvern (Or You’ll Be There All Day”), I just shook my head.”
He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1990 – -
I had returned to Tokyo for Iida’s wedding at the Hotel Okura.
After his bride, Akiko, had changed from a kimono into a Western outfit, they entered the ballroom to the applause of 500 guests. The music then started up for the bridal waltz, sending my table of footy old boys into cheers but leaving me laughing. Never before had Up There, Cazaly featured in a traditional Japanese wedding.
and then goes on with specific significance to the Australian Embassy short sightedness a few years prior
The former ruck-rover sitting next to me had become an executive for one of Japan’s biggest trading companies, travelling the world buying wheat.
In fact, he confided with a guilty smile, he had switched tens of millions of dollars in contracts from Canada to Australia “because I like Australia”.
- – - what’s clear to see is that some people are over obsessed with the reasons WHY Australian football shouldn’t even be considered as a game to ‘expand’ internationally………..but, there’s a pretty compelling argument as to why is SHOULD.
because, unlike most international sports – - there is a period that is the present, the recent past and the foreseeable future – where AUstralia is the world centre of this code, it’s playing, it’s teachings and learnings…………and so, Uni students across the world who give it a crack develop a greater curiousity and understanding for and of Australia than a once off international soccer match or hockey match caught up in a crowded international and domestic schedule.
Sometimes you do need to be a goose to stand out from the swans……
Michael C said | January 15th 2009 @ 10:23am | Report comment
btw –
the link to the article
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24880405-2722,00.html
title Japan learns Aussie rules
and note He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1990 – -
should have read
He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1995, 5 years after he’d left Japan in 1990
And his impressions of the ‘big bash’ to mark 20 years of Japanese footy are great given that he had no idea what was going on, and had no idea that the B&F medal is infact named after him.
No doubt he has re ignited old friendships and will be tracking AFL Japan happenings via the internet going forward.
Captain Nemo said | March 10th 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
In my 23 years of being a pilot with Cathay Pacific Airways, I have never heard once a person/media mention abroad anything about AFL/VFL (except maybe Victorians/Australians). It takes something as horrific as the bush fires for oz to get mentioned. I do enjoy visiting Melbourne, it is a lovelly clean city however, I do find it hard to deal with this almost evangilistic type obsession with AFL. On almost every trip to Melbourne with Cathay, I will get asked, who do you barrack for??? If my Co-pilot is Canadian, South African or a Kiwi, he/she will usually get the same question regarding their favourite AFL team. As much as Melbourne is a beautiful city, I find this total obsession with AFL quite bizzare. It is different to anywhere else i have travelled to. In Canada they love their hockey (ice), USA love their baseball and American football, Europe their football however when I visit these parts of the world, it does not appear to me as an outsider to be all consuming and with this extreme desire to spread the game. Never anywhere else on the planet have I ever been asked who I barrack for. I do get “are you an aussie!! etc etc but never that. I will admit to being a former rugby player with easts (beasties) in Sydney in my younger years and do follow the TAH’s and I spend about 7 months of the year flying abroad. I have never in all my travels come across any one city in this ever shrinking planet that is so obsessed with a sporting code like Victorians. This is just my observation, take it or leave it.
Albert Ross said | March 10th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
^^^ On that note someone should close this thread.
Redb said | March 10th 2009 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Captain Nemo,
You played rugby in Sydney, you therefore have inherent bias like the rest of us.
The obsession is better from the inside.
Redb
Michael C said | March 10th 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Captain Nemo -
that opening line of ‘Who do you barrack for’,
it intrinsically ‘Melbourne’ for a very particular reason -
Barrack
That word in this form is originated in Melbourne, the main ‘international’ footy of the early days was local teams playing ‘football’ against the British soldiers from the ‘Victoria BArracks’ down the road. Their supporters were regarded as the ‘Barrackers’.
The second aspect to the question – is that it is a universal ice breaker. If in doubt, you start up with this question.
NOw – - seemingly it annoys you, but,
your response will tell so much and enable a progression:
i.e. if you say, “no, I don’t follow the AFL, I’m from Sydney and follow Rugby” – - – well, that’s opened up a whole line of conversation.
if you say “I’m from Canada, I’ve got no idea, who would you suggest”, likewise, a whole raft of conversation possiblities,
and if you say “Collingwood”…………well…….’nuff said!!
so – far less offensive than outright coming out with “What do you do?”, or “Where are you from” etc
Hopefully, you now realise that it’s a ‘utility’ phrase. It’s NOT so much the sign of an obsessive city, rather, more that it’s symbolic of our city having a major growth phase through the 1800s such that the city and it’s own unique code of football grew together, in an egalitarian way (i.e. everybody played the one game, we didn’t have for example RU in the private schools and RL in the public).
The capacity at any time in the past has been that who a person ‘barracked’ for probably gave you a fair inkling as to where they lived and what sort of occupation or voting tendancy they might have. Thus, again, a very useful tool for progressing your ‘conversation’ without tactlessly going somewhere that you ought not.
btw -
even if we ARE obsessed – - we Victorians are allowed to be. It’s our game. It started here. It’s been nurtured here. And despite all the logical and rational reasons why it should no longer exist or thrive – - well, it’s still going okay. It could be going better, but it could have died out 80 years ago.
In this ever shrinkng world, there’s a growing Aust Footy community in Canada :
http://www.aflcanada.com/
a reasonable number of clubs under way in Alberta and British Columbia, Ontario is the hot bed, by any standards, a 10 team league is a good little league. And they’re now underway finally in Quebec. There’s a juniors league in the North Delta.
Perhaps you need to overcome you Sydney based and Rugby based bias, and celebrate that for some crazy reason, there are now (10s of ) 1000s of people around the world who have discovered and taken up OUR game. A game that by it’s name, it’s origins and it’s elite level – all points to Australia. It’s a start, it’s mostly happened over the last 5-10 years. The shrinking world you speak of perhaps may help further facilitate it.
You’re allowed to take pride in it, to NOT be embarrassed by it. In fact, you could even speak half way encouragingly of it. Perhaps?
Pippinu said | March 10th 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Captain Nemo
That’s an interesting observation, and a worthwhile post!
Yes, all Melburnians grow up knowing this fact: In Victoria (and maybe other parts of Australia): Who do you barrack for? is the 2nd most asked question.
You can deride that as being bizarre on world terms.
Or, being the well-travelled person that you are, you could conclude: What an interesting cultrual more Melburnians display, that is quite different to any other part of the World.
Small-minded and unwordly? Maybe, but I think our cafe culture and eateries match up with the very best in the world.
Ok – it’s a quirky little thing, so what?
I will add two points:
1. Melburnians are in no way evangelical about spreading the game. I’m sorrry, that’s completely false. First and foremost, we care only about our own clubs and don’t give a damn about anything else. It should also be rememebered that back in 1981, the vast majority were against sending South to Sydney. So sorry, we have never, ever been evangelical about spreading the game – we have never cared about the fact that no one else gives a damn.
2. In a small way – you have illustrated why the game is so well entrenched in Melbourne, and that whatever inroads other sports make are only chipping away at a massive rock the size of Uluru.
Norm said | March 10th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
-”we have never cared about the fact that no one else gives a damn.” This is another example pippy boy of you saying one thing and doing the opposite.
Albert Ross said | March 10th 2009 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Pip porks:
we have never, ever been evangelical about spreading the game – we have never cared about the fact that no one else gives a damn.
Is that a cock I hear crowing?
Are the privations of the seige of Madrid driving you completely delusional?
Reading Michael C’s posts in the 2000s youse do care very much about spreading the word about “the one true footy”. And spend money (not government money – no way) on the evangelism.
Albert Ross said | March 10th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Michael your folk (volk would be more accurate perhaps) etymology of the usage of the word “barrack” as a verb in the sense to cheer is twaddle – like most of what you go on about here.
The usage in Australia is probably derived from a Ulster usage meaning to “brag”.
Michael C said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Albert Ross -
glad you mentioned it. Most etymologists are entirely unaware of the Melbourne sporting history. Which is why, despite regarding it as an Australianism from circa 1885-90, and deciding that it fits nicely as a derivation of usage of an Irish term – they actually miss the earlier form in Melbourne, from about 30 years prior relating to the ‘Barrackers’.
at any rate –
it’s one of those moot points :
http://www.anu.edu.au/ANDC/ozwords/December%202001/Barrack.html
The origin of the term barrack (in either sense) has been in some dispute. It has been claimed by E.E. Morris (Austral English 1898) among others that the word derives from the Wathawurung word burag ‘no, not’ which in Aboriginal pidgin became borak ‘nonsense’, ‘rubbish’, especially in the phrase to poke borak at ‘to ridicule, poke fun at, pour scorn on’. It is quite unlikely, however, that barrack and borak are related, in spite of some similarity of meaning.
Another theory is that the term originated in or was intimately connected with the Victoria Barracks in Melbourne. The Bulletin (8 Feb. 1933, p. 11) formulates the theory: ‘The word was first coined in Melbourne owing to the proficiency of roaring encouragement and howling abuse displayed by the supporters of a football team that had its habitat near some artillery barracks.’ W.S. Ramson, editor of The Australian National Dictionary, in his book Australian English (1966), p. 57, sinks the Victoria Barracks theory quite decisively. However, Geoffrey Blainey, in A Game of Our Own: the Origins of Australian Football (1990), keeps the theory afloat:
More important than the exact origin of the word is the question of why it came to be used enthusiastically in Melbourne’s footballing circles … and why it then spread throughout the continent. A new word becomes the vogue largely because it sounds right. The word ‘barrack’ seemed just right amongst football spectators in Melbourne in the 1870s because they recalled the regimental footballers who lived in the Victoria Barracks, knew especially their fighting brand of football…. In a city and a sport where the players from the army barracks made such a stir, the word seemed a neat fit…. At one time many people in Melbourne believed that the word had originated through football’s connection with the Victoria Barracks. But the specialists in the Australian language who later emerged … did not realize the intimate connection between ‘barracks’ and the rise of Australian football and therefore had no reason to see merit in the theory (p. 54).
Apropos Blainey’s comment, it is interesting that Eric Partridge in his Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Usage (Partridge, by the bye, favours the theory that our barrack came from costermonger Cockney barrakin, barrikin ‘gibberish, a jumble of words’, influenced by borak) adds the following rider: ‘Note, however, that the very able journalist, Guy Innes, says, in a private letter, 1944, “I have always understood, and indeed believe, that this word originated from the widespread description in Melbourne of the rough teams that used to play football on the vacant land near the Victoria Barracks on the St Kilda Road as barrackers.”’
All these theories, pace those who barrack for them, are iffy, to say the least. The most probable derivation, perhaps, is that our barrack comes from the Northern Irish word barrack which means ‘to brag, to be boastful of one’s fighting powers’ (The English Dialect Dictionary). There seems to me to be only a small leap between the meaning of the Irish word and what my subtext is when I jump up and cry ‘Carn the Cats!’ at a Geelong match: ‘I am openly boasting of my support for the fighting powers of the mighty and invincible Geelong players and fully expect to bask in their reflected glory! I may not be in there with them bashing and bouncing and leaping and pouncing and indulging in whatever macho mayhem goes on at these spectacles, I may be only a little weasel who gets sand kicked at him on beaches by bulging bodybuilderish bully-boys, but for the moment I wear my colours proudly on my sleeve (and head and neck and upper body and face as well with lots of face-paint) and I am as ‘catty’ as any of the Cats! Carn the Cats! I am a barracker and that makes me big.’
From what I’ve read, the Irish connotation is iffy to start with, as the Irish weren’t hugely involved in the early days of football – - i.e. it was the cricketers who formed the football clubs, and the Irish weren’t numerous amongst them. (the absence of green or orange from football ’strips’ also signifies a lack of Irish ‘lead’ influence).
However, what I reckon is that the latter input of Irish probably helped entrench the phrase contextually, and the usage of it, that it seems agreed stemmed from Melbourne and spread out.
So – - if you’ve ever ‘barracked’ for your team, then, that little bit of ‘Australianess’ is derived from the MElbourne football scene of the mid/late 1800s.
Michael C said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Albert Ross -
re the ’spread’ of the game.
For a long time, I gave no concern to it whatsoever. I was anti QLD and NSW. And overseas, well, that was just beer guzzling expats.
Then something happened.
I started to read about and hear about locals in QLD and NSW falling for the game. ANd realised that there were infact small bastions of footy that – like the indomitable village of Gauls had held out against the invading Romans all this time.
And realising that Canberra used to have a far, far greater Aust Footy culture than remains today, but, it was ignored, taken for granted or just bypassed – - and the result is that other codes have voraciously gone in and raped and pillaged the ‘football landscape’.
and then, to notice not just a couple of outposts of footy overseas, but, rather a trend across Europe, Nth America, and other areas, of clubs popping up, and becoming ‘localised’, i.e. ‘de-expatted’!!!).
So, never was there the concern previously about spreading the game on my behalf,
but, seeing that it had started to spread entirely organically, well ; it’s pretty cool really.
Now, how silly would we be to NOT encourage it now that it’s already started???
In the main though, we still only care about the 22 round H&A AFL season, and care most about beating Collingwood than West Coast (although, it’s pretty damn cool to do them too!!!, especially over there).
Sharminator said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
I grew up in Tasmania, a footy state .. and like Nemo have travelled the world.
From the comments on this site … there seem to be two views amongst AFL supporters
1. Its our sport and we dont care if it´s international, we love it ….
2. AFL is growing in Holland, Japan and Timbuctu … and is going to dominate the world in 5 years time ….
For people amongst the first set of AFL supporters, its good you have an interest you love.
But amongst the second set .. you are deranged .. I´ve lived overseas for 7 years, Europe, the US, South America,
.. and also travelled alot.
AFL does not exist in any meaningful form outside of Australia.
Everytime I read comments about AFL´s international expansion I cannot help but laugh …. the AFL World Cup,
the European Championship etc etc.
As someone pointed out .. you see stats and websites by Australians or reports in the Australian media ….
I´ve even seen a website dedicated for reports on AFL around the world.
But in the local media of the country concerned there is nothing …. because it is completely off the radar.
And when you actually read the details about the matches … they have reduced players numbers, are played on
rectangular pitches and bear little resemblence to the game known in Australia as Australian Football.
The best comparison I can make is sports like American Football, Lacrosse, or Ice Hockey in Australia.
Yes they exist, amongst small groups but they are so far below the mainstream its laughable to think along
the lines of “in 20 years another country may be able to challenge australia” which is what I once read on this site.
GET A GRIP ON REALITY.
AFL IS A GREAT SPORT, A PART OF AUSTRALIAN CULTURE … BUT DUE TO ITS VERY AUSTRALIANESS IT IS
NEVER GOING TO BECOME A MAJOR SPORT IN ANOTHER COUNTRY .. best example AMERICAN FOOTBALL!!!
Redb said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Not a bad summary Sharminator, but for those who do love the game it is enjoyable to see it spread overseas. I agree it will probably never be a major sport in another country (well there is Nauru), there has however been more growth in the last 10 years than the last 50.
The question is the degree of growth and niche in any country.
Redb
Michael C said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
Sharminator -
and is going to dominate the world in 5 years time ….
who has ever said anything along those lines??
It’s a big world out there though, and there’s a little niche developing. 60 odd clubs in the US, is that the starting point? is that the pinnacle? At any rate, it’s a nice curiousity seeing Denmark, Germany and Sweden contesting annual tri-nations tournaments……..although, one looks on a little jealously, that they get to represent their country.
AFL does not exist in any meaningful form outside of Australia.
in the main, that is correct. However, PNG and Sth AFrica are perhaps challenging that. PNG more so, where there is a reasonable history dating back to just after WWII.
Yes, in the local media, there generally is nothing. THe odd curiousity report on local news or in the local paper, the same that as you indicated that one would expect for something like the Croydon Grid Iron team.
I think we do have a reasonable grip on reality.
It was you who spoke of world domination.
This is a common problem. As soon as we Aust Footy folk mention anything of our very small but intrepid international community – - suddenly we’re seen as seeking world domination and taking on soccer?!?!!??!?! What The!!!!!
However, the reality is – via the internet, it is so much easier for new clubs to establish and network with existing clubs. For people curious about the game to now find somewhere to play it.
I recall a book by Mark Schwarzer, a kids book – about a kid in a foreign country wanting to play soccer. Well, gee….I don’t think there’s any lack of soccer games going on around the world.
You just try being a kid or adult in a foreign country wanting to boot the sherrin around. Well, more and more – that’s get facilitated.
Hardly world domination.
World penitration more like it. Still, very much localised, very small in numbers, and completely off the radar.
In the main – it was designed that way. In the past, the local clubs would come and go with the expat Aussies. Now though, more and more, the clubs are surviving on the strength of the locals.
True though, many 9 or 12 a side games. A. because, invariably, that’s the best fit for the available fields to play on. B. because, often you have a single ‘club’ per city, and a 3 hour trip to the nearest ‘other club’. SO, within each city, they break up into several ‘teams’ and play each other. Yep – - it’s small fry stuff in the extreme.
There’s only so many leagues like the Ontario league with 10 clubs involved.
And, it’s mighty curious when for some of them, their first experience of 18 a side full ground footy was at the International Cup in Melbourne.
And yet they came. Not as wannabe professionals. But as pay your way amateurs. It’s NICE. It’s a bloody nice story. NOthing more, nothing less.
Simmo said | March 10th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
I’ve been a player with one of the 5 clubs in the ACT Gridion league. Each club has about 40 players, some coaches are American but almost all players are local. Good comp, enjoyed by all.
reminds me of the same situation that Aussie Rules is in in Denmark et al.
Pippinu said | March 10th 2009 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Simmo
I would think that’s a reasonable analogy.
People often mention Lacrosse, and I see that as a good benchmark for Australian Football, i.e. get it played to a reasonable standard in about 5 countries (and I say this as someone who has played Lacrosse and knows a fair bit about it). Four of those five countries may never be as proficient as Canada, or put another way, it may never be as important in other countries as it is in Canada, but to have about 5 countries in the world playing it to a reasonable standard is not such an unachievable target.
PNG and South Africa is an obvious start.
But I repeat – 99.9% of aussie rules supporters do not give a damn about any such matters – they only care about their own club – and that&#