From what I’ve read, the Irish connotation is iffy to start with, as the Irish weren’t hugely involved in the early days of football – - i.e. it was the cricketers who formed the football clubs, and the Irish weren’t numerous amongst them. (the absence of green or orange from football ’strips’ also signifies a lack of Irish ‘lead’ influence).

I can’t see how you can draw that conclusion from the article. The author says “The most probable derivation, perhaps, is that our barrack comes from the Northern Irish word barrack and you go onto rely on the tmeanderings of the one of most egregious popular historians, Baloney. I don’t understand you at all. Are you saying that there were no Irish in Melbourne or Victoria in the 1850s and 60s?

Have you got any serious examples of the spontaneous usage of the term in the sense to cheer by non-Irish immigrants from that time?

People often mention Lacrosse, and I see that as a good benchmark for Australian Football, i.e. get it played to a reasonable standard in about 5 countries (and I say this as someone who has played Lacrosse and knows a fair bit about it). Four of those five countries may never be as proficient as Canada, or put another way, it may never be as important in other countries as it is in Canada, but to have about 5 countries in the world playing it to a reasonable standard is not such an unachievable target.

PNG and South Africa is an obvious start.

But I repeat – 99.9% of aussie rules supporters do not give a damn about any such matters – they only care about their own club – and that’s what makes the AFL so very strong (they care enough to spend big in supporting their club – and this attracts sponsors and advertisers).

People can say whatever they want – but until anyone comes close to matching the numbers that matter the most to sponsors and advertisers, they ain’t making too much sense.

reminds me of the same situation that Aussie Rules is in in Denmark et al.

and is going to dominate the world in 5 years time ….

who has ever said anything along those lines??

It’s a big world out there though, and there’s a little niche developing. 60 odd clubs in the US, is that the starting point? is that the pinnacle? At any rate, it’s a nice curiousity seeing Denmark, Germany and Sweden contesting annual tri-nations tournaments……..although, one looks on a little jealously, that they get to represent their country.

AFL does not exist in any meaningful form outside of Australia.

in the main, that is correct. However, PNG and Sth AFrica are perhaps challenging that. PNG more so, where there is a reasonable history dating back to just after WWII.

Yes, in the local media, there generally is nothing. THe odd curiousity report on local news or in the local paper, the same that as you indicated that one would expect for something like the Croydon Grid Iron team.

I think we do have a reasonable grip on reality.

It was you who spoke of world domination.

This is a common problem. As soon as we Aust Footy folk mention anything of our very small but intrepid international community – - suddenly we’re seen as seeking world domination and taking on soccer?!?!!??!?! What The!!!!!

However, the reality is – via the internet, it is so much easier for new clubs to establish and network with existing clubs. For people curious about the game to now find somewhere to play it.

I recall a book by Mark Schwarzer, a kids book – about a kid in a foreign country wanting to play soccer. Well, gee….I don’t think there’s any lack of soccer games going on around the world.

You just try being a kid or adult in a foreign country wanting to boot the sherrin around. Well, more and more – that’s get facilitated.

Hardly world domination.

World penitration more like it. Still, very much localised, very small in numbers, and completely off the radar.

In the main – it was designed that way. In the past, the local clubs would come and go with the expat Aussies. Now though, more and more, the clubs are surviving on the strength of the locals.

True though, many 9 or 12 a side games. A. because, invariably, that’s the best fit for the available fields to play on. B. because, often you have a single ‘club’ per city, and a 3 hour trip to the nearest ‘other club’. SO, within each city, they break up into several ‘teams’ and play each other. Yep – - it’s small fry stuff in the extreme.

There’s only so many leagues like the Ontario league with 10 clubs involved.

And, it’s mighty curious when for some of them, their first experience of 18 a side full ground footy was at the International Cup in Melbourne.

And yet they came. Not as wannabe professionals. But as pay your way amateurs. It’s NICE. It’s a bloody nice story. NOthing more, nothing less.

The question is the degree of growth and niche in any country.

Redb

From the comments on this site … there seem to be two views amongst AFL supporters

1. Its our sport and we dont care if it´s international, we love it ….

2. AFL is growing in Holland, Japan and Timbuctu … and is going to dominate the world in 5 years time ….

For people amongst the first set of AFL supporters, its good you have an interest you love.
But amongst the second set .. you are deranged .. I´ve lived overseas for 7 years, Europe, the US, South America,
.. and also travelled alot.

AFL does not exist in any meaningful form outside of Australia.

Everytime I read comments about AFL´s international expansion I cannot help but laugh …. the AFL World Cup,
the European Championship etc etc.

As someone pointed out .. you see stats and websites by Australians or reports in the Australian media ….
I´ve even seen a website dedicated for reports on AFL around the world.
But in the local media of the country concerned there is nothing …. because it is completely off the radar.

And when you actually read the details about the matches … they have reduced players numbers, are played on
rectangular pitches and bear little resemblence to the game known in Australia as Australian Football.

The best comparison I can make is sports like American Football, Lacrosse, or Ice Hockey in Australia.
Yes they exist, amongst small groups but they are so far below the mainstream its laughable to think along
the lines of “in 20 years another country may be able to challenge australia” which is what I once read on this site.

GET A GRIP ON REALITY.

AFL IS A GREAT SPORT, A PART OF AUSTRALIAN CULTURE … BUT DUE TO ITS VERY AUSTRALIANESS IT IS
NEVER GOING TO BECOME A MAJOR SPORT IN ANOTHER COUNTRY .. best example AMERICAN FOOTBALL!!!

re the ‘spread’ of the game.

For a long time, I gave no concern to it whatsoever. I was anti QLD and NSW. And overseas, well, that was just beer guzzling expats.

Then something happened.

I started to read about and hear about locals in QLD and NSW falling for the game. ANd realised that there were infact small bastions of footy that – like the indomitable village of Gauls had held out against the invading Romans all this time.

And realising that Canberra used to have a far, far greater Aust Footy culture than remains today, but, it was ignored, taken for granted or just bypassed – - and the result is that other codes have voraciously gone in and raped and pillaged the ‘football landscape’.

and then, to notice not just a couple of outposts of footy overseas, but, rather a trend across Europe, Nth America, and other areas, of clubs popping up, and becoming ‘localised’, i.e. ‘de-expatted’!!!).

So, never was there the concern previously about spreading the game on my behalf,

but, seeing that it had started to spread entirely organically, well ; it’s pretty cool really.

Now, how silly would we be to NOT encourage it now that it’s already started???

In the main though, we still only care about the 22 round H&A AFL season, and care most about beating Collingwood than West Coast (although, it’s pretty damn cool to do them too!!!, especially over there).

glad you mentioned it. Most etymologists are entirely unaware of the Melbourne sporting history. Which is why, despite regarding it as an Australianism from circa 1885-90, and deciding that it fits nicely as a derivation of usage of an Irish term – they actually miss the earlier form in Melbourne, from about 30 years prior relating to the ‘Barrackers’.

at any rate –
it’s one of those moot points :
http://www.anu.edu.au/ANDC/ozwords/December%202001/Barrack.html

The origin of the term barrack (in either sense) has been in some dispute. It has been claimed by E.E. Morris (Austral English 1898) among others that the word derives from the Wathawurung word burag ‘no, not’ which in Aboriginal pidgin became borak ‘nonsense’, ‘rubbish’, especially in the phrase to poke borak at ‘to ridicule, poke fun at, pour scorn on’. It is quite unlikely, however, that barrack and borak are related, in spite of some similarity of meaning.

All these theories, pace those who barrack for them, are iffy, to say the least. The most probable derivation, perhaps, is that our barrack comes from the Northern Irish word barrack which means ‘to brag, to be boastful of one’s fighting powers’ (The English Dialect Dictionary). There seems to me to be only a small leap between the meaning of the Irish word and what my subtext is when I jump up and cry ‘Carn the Cats!’ at a Geelong match: ‘I am openly boasting of my support for the fighting powers of the mighty and invincible Geelong players and fully expect to bask in their reflected glory! I may not be in there with them bashing and bouncing and leaping and pouncing and indulging in whatever macho mayhem goes on at these spectacles, I may be only a little weasel who gets sand kicked at him on beaches by bulging bodybuilderish bully-boys, but for the moment I wear my colours proudly on my sleeve (and head and neck and upper body and face as well with lots of face-paint) and I am as ‘catty’ as any of the Cats! Carn the Cats! I am a barracker and that makes me big.’

From what I’ve read, the Irish connotation is iffy to start with, as the Irish weren’t hugely involved in the early days of football – - i.e. it was the cricketers who formed the football clubs, and the Irish weren’t numerous amongst them. (the absence of green or orange from football ‘strips’ also signifies a lack of Irish ‘lead’ influence).

However, what I reckon is that the latter input of Irish probably helped entrench the phrase contextually, and the usage of it, that it seems agreed stemmed from Melbourne and spread out.

So – - if you’ve ever ‘barracked’ for your team, then, that little bit of ‘Australianess’ is derived from the MElbourne football scene of the mid/late 1800s.

The usage in Australia is probably derived from a Ulster usage meaning to “brag”.

we have never, ever been evangelical about spreading the game – we have never cared about the fact that no one else gives a damn.

Is that a cock I hear crowing?

Are the privations of the seige of Madrid driving you completely delusional?

Reading Michael C’s posts in the 2000s youse do care very much about spreading the word about “the one true footy”. And spend money (not government money – no way) on the evangelism.

That’s an interesting observation, and a worthwhile post!

Yes, all Melburnians grow up knowing this fact: In Victoria (and maybe other parts of Australia): Who do you barrack for? is the 2nd most asked question.

You can deride that as being bizarre on world terms.

Or, being the well-travelled person that you are, you could conclude: What an interesting cultrual more Melburnians display, that is quite different to any other part of the World.

Small-minded and unwordly? Maybe, but I think our cafe culture and eateries match up with the very best in the world.

Ok – it’s a quirky little thing, so what?

I will add two points:
1. Melburnians are in no way evangelical about spreading the game. I’m sorrry, that’s completely false. First and foremost, we care only about our own clubs and don’t give a damn about anything else. It should also be rememebered that back in 1981, the vast majority were against sending South to Sydney. So sorry, we have never, ever been evangelical about spreading the game – we have never cared about the fact that no one else gives a damn.

2. In a small way – you have illustrated why the game is so well entrenched in Melbourne, and that whatever inroads other sports make are only chipping away at a massive rock the size of Uluru.

that opening line of ‘Who do you barrack for’,

it intrinsically ‘Melbourne’ for a very particular reason -

Barrack

That word in this form is originated in Melbourne, the main ‘international’ footy of the early days was local teams playing ‘football’ against the British soldiers from the ‘Victoria BArracks’ down the road. Their supporters were regarded as the ‘Barrackers’.

The second aspect to the question – is that it is a universal ice breaker. If in doubt, you start up with this question.

NOw – - seemingly it annoys you, but,

your response will tell so much and enable a progression:

i.e. if you say, “no, I don’t follow the AFL, I’m from Sydney and follow Rugby” – - – well, that’s opened up a whole line of conversation.

if you say “I’m from Canada, I’ve got no idea, who would you suggest”, likewise, a whole raft of conversation possiblities,

and if you say “Collingwood”…………well…….’nuff said!!

so – far less offensive than outright coming out with “What do you do?”, or “Where are you from” etc

Hopefully, you now realise that it’s a ‘utility’ phrase. It’s NOT so much the sign of an obsessive city, rather, more that it’s symbolic of our city having a major growth phase through the 1800s such that the city and it’s own unique code of football grew together, in an egalitarian way (i.e. everybody played the one game, we didn’t have for example RU in the private schools and RL in the public).

The capacity at any time in the past has been that who a person ‘barracked’ for probably gave you a fair inkling as to where they lived and what sort of occupation or voting tendancy they might have. Thus, again, a very useful tool for progressing your ‘conversation’ without tactlessly going somewhere that you ought not.

btw -

even if we ARE obsessed – - we Victorians are allowed to be. It’s our game. It started here. It’s been nurtured here. And despite all the logical and rational reasons why it should no longer exist or thrive – - well, it’s still going okay. It could be going better, but it could have died out 80 years ago.

In this ever shrinkng world, there’s a growing Aust Footy community in Canada :
http://www.aflcanada.com/

a reasonable number of clubs under way in Alberta and British Columbia, Ontario is the hot bed, by any standards, a 10 team league is a good little league. And they’re now underway finally in Quebec. There’s a juniors league in the North Delta.

Perhaps you need to overcome you Sydney based and Rugby based bias, and celebrate that for some crazy reason, there are now (10s of ) 1000s of people around the world who have discovered and taken up OUR game. A game that by it’s name, it’s origins and it’s elite level – all points to Australia. It’s a start, it’s mostly happened over the last 5-10 years. The shrinking world you speak of perhaps may help further facilitate it.

You’re allowed to take pride in it, to NOT be embarrassed by it. In fact, you could even speak half way encouragingly of it. Perhaps?

You played rugby in Sydney, you therefore have inherent bias like the rest of us.

The obsession is better from the inside.

Redb

title Japan learns Aussie rules

and note He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1990 – -

should have read

He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1995, 5 years after he’d left Japan in 1990

And his impressions of the ‘big bash’ to mark 20 years of Japanese footy are great given that he had no idea what was going on, and had no idea that the B&F medal is infact named after him.

No doubt he has re ignited old friendships and will be tracking AFL Japan happenings via the internet going forward.

Note – - driven NOT so much by the VFL or Australian interests – - it was driven by Fuji TV.

Wilson was called upon for seemingly no better reason than he was Australian (admitting Judo was his game, not footy) – - and coached the first 2 squads of players from “..Keio and Waseda universities, the most distinguished of the nation’s 600 private universities. Sporting contests between them are like Oxford-Cambridge matches.”

Interesting, this paragraph

The VFL turned down my appeals for help because it was only interested in selling TV rights to the Japanese, not in getting them to play the game. The Australian embassy was also no help because it could see no trade advantage in having a bunch of kids playing our game, even though I pointed out these were elite universities and the students could one day be influential.

Interesting, because – Wilson goes on to describe that it wsa only via the sport that he developed real friendships in the social to and fro of Japanese society/culture.

He writes of a “Out blared the Coodabeen Champions. A car full of kids who could barely speak English began singing along with “I’m DiPierdomenico, all the way from head to toe…” When they also knew the words to the song Never Turn Right at Burke Road, Malvern (Or You’ll Be There All Day”), I just shook my head.”

He then speaks of the wedding of his players in late 1990 – -

I had returned to Tokyo for Iida’s wedding at the Hotel Okura.

After his bride, Akiko, had changed from a kimono into a Western outfit, they entered the ballroom to the applause of 500 guests. The music then started up for the bridal waltz, sending my table of footy old boys into cheers but leaving me laughing. Never before had Up There, Cazaly featured in a traditional Japanese wedding.

The former ruck-rover sitting next to me had become an executive for one of Japan’s biggest trading companies, travelling the world buying wheat.

In fact, he confided with a guilty smile, he had switched tens of millions of dollars in contracts from Canada to Australia “because I like Australia”.

- – - what’s clear to see is that some people are over obsessed with the reasons WHY Australian football shouldn’t even be considered as a game to ‘expand’ internationally………..but, there’s a pretty compelling argument as to why is SHOULD.

because, unlike most international sports – - there is a period that is the present, the recent past and the foreseeable future – where AUstralia is the world centre of this code, it’s playing, it’s teachings and learnings…………and so, Uni students across the world who give it a crack develop a greater curiousity and understanding for and of Australia than a once off international soccer match or hockey match caught up in a crowded international and domestic schedule.

Sometimes you do need to be a goose to stand out from the swans……

btw – interesting to see Ben Graham and Sav Rocca going head to head in a play off for the Super Bowl – - – not far off now, first Aussie in a Super Bowl. Just shows there’s solid hope for all aging AFL players to ‘kick on’ in the US.

Poor soul, only has 1 answer to Australian Footballs dominance over soccer in Australia, it’s always Aussie Rules is nothing overseas.

Mate, we live in Australia, this web site is Australian. If you hate the thought of things developed in Australia shown to the world maybe you should change your citizenship.

BTW if you think pints of larger, jumping up and down in the ‘terraces’ and soccer are Australian you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=9666

It’s called “Anonymous Footy Liaisons”.

In any event, I’ve said many times before, 99.9% of Australian Football fans only give a damn about their club – everything else is peripheral.

Galdsic to see no code vs code point scoring going on here??? ahem MC

Dave, Norm and Albert Ross – - – you get what you deserve and you got each other………congratulations. ’bout says it all really. A big ball of excrement rolling down a hill acts a bit like a cartoon snow ball……..you’re all drawn into it.

I don’t understand Pi pi’s line. He’s a blogger on au.442. He never mentions all the successes of the one true game over there.

Are these the same people that on one thread deride HAL for being small and meaningless (in the context of that behometh AFL?) and on the other espouse the makings of what???…bit of park AFL in some far off land. From the way you carry on didn’t think there was any need for expansion as you have it all here??? Seem to change your tune from thread to thread.

If you think HAL is small in the context of Oz sport then think of AFL overseas??? Get over it.

BTW What makes you two the determiners of what is Australain and what isn’t…sort putting yourselves up on a pedestal there boys…

Love to hear what your definition of what a true Aussie is as you are obviously experts?

careful…….those folk who reckon there’s only one true soccer, and seemingly are annoyed that Australians call their brews ‘beer’ and their vehicles ‘cars’……because………they weren’t ‘invented’ here………they are the same one’s who deny that Australians can create ‘music’, as, that is another thing NOT invented in Australia……..

Dave -

on a relative scale………it’s on the march………….and the reality in the past there have been short lived incarnations of single clubs here and there, but, never on this scale before, that, aligned with footy already in Spanish catalonia as well, and the gradually growing ‘Euro’ scene – - – there’s something for these individually only so significant happenings to attach to.

And – - – these days, you often see new clubs set up based around their facebook page first, then the website as the club becomes more established. This is the ‘brave new world’ for small fry…………that (oh, Cook just got out, ……what a feast of test cricket!!!)……….that illustrates how the power of the internet is the wild card to grow games that otherwise would be 100% inaccessible in closed football markets such as many of those soccer/rugby nations…………

From little things big things grow.

To you Soccer followers, Paul Kelly is from Australia so you may not have heard of him.

Chewy on ya boot

Redb