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The Crowd Says (117) | Page 2 of Comments

• January 6th 2009 @ 2:18pm
  NickF said | January 6th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment

  I am an Australian, but I can’t believe Wayne Shelford was not mentioned, not even in passing.

  But one thing I did note is that an All Black could be selected in nearly every position, and rightfully so. I say nearly every position, except scrum half. NZ produces great fly-halves, domiating loose flankers, great forwards and strong running backs. And good half backs, not great, just good. I can’t name any NZ half back of the same calibre as Fox, Merhtens and Carter. But why not? Can anyone put a reason to this? Justin Marshall, good halfback, so was Kirk, but they don’t rlll of the tongue easily when calling up a “best of” team though.

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 2:38pm
  James Mortimer said | January 6th 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment

  Good point Nick – I could have easily have put a All Black in every position, as we could put an Australian or West Indian in every position in a corresponding cricket XI of all time.

  I think the reason for lack of truly dominating halves from NZ is due to the style of game they play – essentially in my view pioneers of ruck control. Modern All Black halves tend to act more as a ninth forward, or often act as a kicking support option for the 10′s (especially in 08 with the absence of a kicking second five eighth).

  Although it is not prevailent in the modern game, the ferocity of All Black rucking and skill at the pick and drive mean’t that in long periods in the game, a halfback would essentially be rendered redundent.

  The interplay between forwards and backs as a clean operating division is unequalled in world rugby by the All Blacks – a team historically happy to control a game through a pack (hence the often used term in the 80′s and 90′s that you could throw a blanket over a NZ forward unit) but equally, with New Zealand backs taught to contest the tackle area the three quarter line could control play in a similar if not wider field based method.

  As a halfbacks classic role is that of a linking player – so the ability of All Black teams to keep the ball in play in numerous methods allowed for halfbacks to rove a little more than would be traditionally acceptable.

  Still, with Kelleher being amongst the finest players in Europe with Toulouse, it would be interesting if he decided to try his luck back in international rugby – he could well become one of the finest AB halfbacks. Equally I think if Weepu stays focused and fit, he could we become World XV class over time.

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 2:42pm
  matta said | January 6th 2009 @ 2:42pm | Report comment

  “Forrest Yip” there are pleanty or romatic myths we let go like:

  - Jesus was born of a Virgin as the son of god
  - NZ isnt part of Australian

  just a couple that spring to mind…

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 2:50pm
  James Mortimer said | January 6th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment

  Forrest Yip – if the RFU says so, then it must be so!

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 4:46pm
  Frank O'Keeffe said | January 6th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment

  The thing I always found interesting about these types of exercises is how different people from different countries view their own players.

  For example, most Australians wouldn’t dare make an all-time XV without mentioning Col Windon or Trevor Allen. But I swear nobody in the northern hemisphere will know who you’re talking about. I once had a similar dicussion with a Welshman and he put Ivor Jones in his all-time side, I thought “Who?”, before realising I had heard of him before. I guess he’s the Welsh version of Col Windon.

  If you ask the rugby afficiandos from different countries chances are you might hear of a player you never knew existed before.

  Anyway here are some further thoughts. Keep in mind I like to pick players based on what they did in their own generation, not what they’d do today.

  Fullback: I think the three best contenders are Blanco, Williams and Irvine. I’m biased towards Blanco and Irvine because of their workrate. Bob Dwyer wrote a nice piece on Blanco in his last book that sums up my feelings:

  “I was watching a video of Blanco in his formative years showing him scoring a try down the left wing. Hang on! A few seconds before I thought I’d noticed him attacking down the opposite wing. I rewound the tape and played it in slo-mo. There he was being tackled, rucks going over the top of him, ball coming out. But where was Serge? As the damera panned I spotted him in the corner of the screen, sprinting flat-out across the full width of the field to take advantage of the try-scoring oppotunity on the opposite flank. It was a wonderful lesson in the mastery of the possible. Great players recognise the oppotunities and live to exploit them.”

  It seems to me that the greatest players find new ways to get involved in the game. Hennie Muller changed the way no. 8 was played – prior to him no. 8′s played a loose,corner-flagging sort of game. Muller reportedly was the first no. 8 to have such tremendous speed off the scrum and line-out that he regularly reached the breakdown first. Michael Jones was the first multi-talented open-side etc. Before Campese I don’t know if there was a wing who could come off his wing so often with such success. I’ve seen Gerald Davies do it well, but Campo would do anything from popping up in the centres, gliding into the 5/8 position, or even wing up on the other wing. Very difficult to contain players to seek to get involved in the game as much as possible.

  For that reason I rate Blanco and Irvine highly. I’ve only seen three Irvine games, but he impressed me in all of them. There was a clip on the internet not long ago that showed Irvine’s commitment and desire to be as involved as humanly possible I wish I could dig up. Reportedly Irvine was a little dogey under the high ball early on in games, and JPR Williams would often exploit this. JPR also has the distinction of being picked ahead of Irvine for the Lions in the 70s.

  If I had to rank the three I’d go 1. Blanco, 2. Williams, 3. Irvine

  Wing: I don’t have to think twice about choosing David Campese at one wing. Gerald Davies is a pretty safe pick for the other wing, however I recently acquired the 1986 Caviliers tour on video and that has me curious about the greatness of many Springboks… particularly Carel du Plessis. I think it’s very possible he could have replaced Gerald Davies in my all-time side. Perhaps one of the ten most underrated players ever! Lomu isn’t close… I rate Kirwan greater.

  People need to read what Bruce Sheekly said about David Duckham’s side-step. Perhaps the English rate him higher than any other country. But I sincerely think it’s a case of the English seeing more of him than most others, rather than any national bias. I think he’s likely one of the five best wingers ever.

  Outside centre: All who saw Danie Geber swear he was one of the greats. Seeing Gerber play for the Babaas was like a giant revelation for so many rugby players, such as Will Carling. He looks tremendously balanced without a weakness anywhere in attack. My Caviliers tape show he was fantastic, even if it’s shocking to see how much space backs had in those days.

  His only apparently weakness was in defence… I heard that from a South African and it takes quite a bit for a South African to say that of one of their players.

  Inside centre: In terms of legacy you’d have to say Mike Gibson and Phillipe Sella are the two main choices. Horan deserves special mention. Carling’s not close and wouldn’t consider himself close. Umaga’s not there either. South Africa have a few underrated centres. Spiro Zavos mentioned John Gainsford and many Australian writers have waxed lyrical over his accomplishments and contend he deserves to be considered one of the best centres ever. An even more underrated centre might be Mannetjies Roux. The stories of Roux’s defence sound remarkably similar to those of Trevor Allen’s torpedo tackles.

  Five-eighth: Always the most difficult choice because whichever flyhalf you choose goes straight to how you perceive the game should be played. I always hate it when people say Hugo Porta single-handedly made Argentina a world power. I’m sure he was their greatest ever player, but rugby is by far the most team orientated game I’ve ever seen and you’re helpless without a core of excellent players. Porta played behind a pack that didn’t move. A pack that contained Topo Rodriguez (a contender for an all-time XV) and Serafin Dengra (the world’s biggest prop in his day) and the giant Iachetti brothers. Porta reportedly had more options in attack with Martine Sansot at fullback as well and benefitted from him.

  Porta’s a definite contender for an all-time XV and may have had the best kicking game of any player ever… but he’s no easy pick. Barry John was tremendous on my ’71 Lions DVD and deserves special mention. The Welsh don’t just talk about Morgan, John and Bennett… they love to talk about how Jonathan Davies was probably as good as any of them, as well as others! Personally I think they should limit it to Morgan, John and Bennett.

  A guy I used to talk rugby with put Morgan in his all-time side and he knew 1000x more about rugby than I did. His mainjustifications were:
  Morgan used heavy leather balls and received no lengthy spin passes.
  Morgan captained Wales.
  Morgan beat the All Blacks with Wales AND CARDIFF!!!
  Beat the Boks twice as a Lions (unlucky not to win that series) and ran a backline that scored a ridiculous amount of tries in that series. Seriously if a try was worth 5 points back in that day the Lions might have won 4-0!
  Won a Grand Slam in ’52
  Was a legendary Barbarian (just ask Nick Shehedie)
  Kept Carwyn James out of the Welsh no. 10.

  I rate Morgan’s legacy as greater than Porta’s… as to who was better, I don’t know.

  That same person also rates Jack Kyle, who doesn’t get much love on the internet. Eddie Butler once rated him behind Ollie Campbell, which likely was a mistake.

  I’ve only seen four games involving Barry John, but he’s a contender based on what he achieved such a short period.

  I can sincerely say without any bias (because he is one of my favourite players as you all know), that I have never seen a player re-start an attack stiffled by the opposition like Mark Ella. I have never seen anybody with his hands and composure under pressure and ability to operate with no space. I have never seen anybody read the play as well as Ella. I have never seen a player stretch the limits of support play like Mark Ellla. If there was a flyhalf I think who was most likely capable of creating a try, I think Ella was the best. But do you want the flyhalf most likely to give you tries, or a more complete player?

  The way I’d describe Ella is this. What he was best at he was better than anybody else and whether you select him depends on how much you value his strengths because Ella was very seldom a tactical kicker, and while he improved there by the end of his career, you seldom saw the chip-kicks, the grubbers, the perfectly waited up and unders etc.

  I have no problem saying the flyhalfs I think are contenders are: Hugo Porta, Cliff Morgan, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Jack Kyle and Mark Ella (Ollie Campbell gets culled… just!). I’d be happy with any of those six. I might suggest Porta was the best flyhalf in terms of indiviual talent and Ella in terms of constructive talent. Morgan probably has the best legacy.

  I rate Jonny Wilkinson very highly, but not as high as the men above. How Jonny would have gone behind a struggling pack is something I’ve always queried because personally I think it would affect his tactical kicking game.

  HALFBACK: I’m glad Bruce Sheekly referred to how we all accept Edwards as the best ever when… quite frankly… I haven’t seen anything that suggests he’s a mile ahead of anybody. Edwards himself admitted that Sid Going got the better of him time and time again (whether that’s true or false modesty I don’t know). Chris Laidlaw apparently doesn’t rate Edwards as highly either, although apparently the All Black pack made it impossible for Edwards. Edwards has some Lions glory, but as a member of the Welsh side he never beat The Boks or the All Blacks. Although in his defence that’s more of a team thing than an individual thing.

  I’m simply not convinced with Edwards.

  It’s a great shame we never saw Catchpole v Edwards… and we were close to it because Wales played Australia in 1969. Stories of Catchpole say he had the total game and I think he deserves as much consideration at Edwards.

  In the past I’ve underrated Chris Laidlaw who might have been New Zealand’s best ever halfback. Sid Going most likely had the best running game of any halfback in history. And this isn’t forgetting the best halfback I’ve ever seen – the great Dave Loveridge. For all the talk of Going and Laidlaw, I wouldn’t be suprised if Trapper was the best New Zealand halfback… the guy left me in awe!

  Anyway I’ll write more on the forward later…

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 5:36pm
  Frank O'Keeffe said | January 6th 2009 @ 5:36pm | Report comment

  Eightman: I’m happy to see Bruce Sheekly mention Hennie Muller as a contender because in terms of legacy I don’t think you’ll find five Springboks in their history with a better legacy. Muller was the star player of the 1949 series where New Zealand were given their biggest humiliation ever – 4-0 (you can hear Bill Lawry sigh can’t you?). Muller reportedly made life hell for Bob Scott, Fred Allen and Jim Kearnet. The ‘geyhound of the Veldt’ for sure.

  Doug Hopwood is another Springbok who deserves mention. Two men called Andy Caluahoun and Paul Dobson wrote a book called “The 50 Greatest Springboks of All Times”. After ranking their top 50 they picked an all-time side where they played Hopwood at number 8 and Muller at blindside.

  I suppose Zinzan Brooke is the best no. 8 ever, although I know little of Brian Lochore and his accomplishments. I sincerely think Murray Mexted is one of the ten most underrated players in the history of rugby. He was dangerous off the back of a scrum and very physical (go high and he’d just shrug you off), but he also had tremendous ball skills for a forward. Amazing! That backrow of Mexted – Mourie (also an underrated great) – and Cowboy Shaw combined with Trapper Loveridge had such attacking potentcy. I’m not saying Mexted is a contender for an all-time side, I just wanted an oppotunity to say I think he was pretty awesome… and that his commentary sucks!

  Openside flanker: Was it Bob Dwyer who said any wise judge would pick Michael Jones in an all-time side at openside flanker? Despite playing in a side that floundered in a UK tour, Piet Greyling can’t be anything but a legend from the stories that have been told. Even though South Africa played their flankers left and right in Greyling’s day, I’m told Greyling was more of a prelude to a specialist openside and Jan Ellis (like Kirkpatrick and Tremain) was more a prelude to a specialist blindisde. I think we should give some love to Richie McCaw since he’s been the best player in the world for five years now. The other JRP – Jean-Pierre Rives – deserves a mention. I wont use this thread as an excuse to talk about the brilliance that was Graeme Mourie.

  Blindside flanker: It’s facinating to see that Barry John, when making an all-time side, placed Willie O at blindside flanker.Kirkpatrick and Tremain deserve a mention. Some 60s footage of the All Blacks on youtube reveal that Tremain looked like a tremendous treat. With a bit of steam behind him he couldn’t be stopped! Jan Ellis deserves a mention. It’s interesting that the men who wrote ‘The 50 greatest Springboks of all time’ placed Ellis at openside flanker, when really he wasn’t.

  Second rowers: I suppose since Colin Meads was named All Black of the Century and Frik du Preez the Springbok of the century they both should be automatic selections. The problem I have with this consensus is that it’s difficult to imagine either of them dominating line-outs like John Eales, or covering the ground and making as many cover defending tackles as John Eales (although reportedly Frik du Preez was incredibly fast). What was it Rod McCall and John Eales did against Wales in 1991? I believe the line-outs went 28-3 Australia’s way. Against England in 1991 of the 25 line-outs, Australia won 20 – 13 of which Eales won for Australia. This prompted Colin Meads to say that Eales could be anything and a force for another generation. It’s difficult to imagine a player performing much better in the line-out in the pre-lifting years.

  I heard stories of Frik du Preez being something rugby hadn’t seen before – a lock who could kick goals? Sounds like John Eales winning that second Bledisloe game of 2000. Apparently Frik was a man who covered the ground well? Didn’t John Eales make a ridiculous cover-defending tackle on the smaller (normally quicker) Rob Andrew? Martin Johnson placed du Preez and Meads in his all-time side, but he’s also the first to that players like John Eales and Ian Jones were the first of a new athletic breed of locks expected to cover more territory and make as many tackles as the fullback.

  Reportedly Frik was better than Colin Meads in the line-outs and could cover the field as good as anybody. But how could a player dominate line-out as much as John Eales did in the pre-lifting days? Even Steve Cutler (whose main speciality was line-outs) doesn’t compare to Eales in that one area of the game (Eales is on a different level in every other area).

  Like Gareth Edwards, I’m not convinced Frik was anything Eales wasn’t. I’ll believe anything about Frik du Preez, but it just sounds like people are describing John Eales to me.

  PROPS: Let me say this. I AM NOT AND WILL NEVER BE A PERSON WHO WILL UNDERSTAND THE DARK ART OF THE SCRUM! Try as I do, there’s things about the front-row I simple don’t get. So I pick players based on their reputations and what they achieved in their respective generations.

  A funny thing about how people rate props is every great prop apparently changed the way the position was player by being a more complete player. Be it people saying Chris Koch had great ball skills, or Graeme Price covered more territory than any other props. Some have suggested Topo Rodriguez was the first of this kind. Others Robert Paparemborde etc.

  I place great stock in what other greats have said. Fran Cotton willingly admitted that Graeme Price was likely too strong for him, as have others. Price sounds like another person the Welsh have put a mythical status upon, but most props of his day said he was the best. Price himself rated Paparemborde the best he faced.

  Just as Englishmen shouldn’t be criticised as biased for selecting David Duckham in all-time sides, neither should any Aussie picking Topo Rodriguez because he has a laundry list accomplishments acting as the cornerstone for both the Argies and Aussie scrum.

  It dawns upon me that while South Africa have a tremendous history of great props – du Randt, Marias, Koch, Bekker, Louw etc. France also have a great history of props. Paparemborde, Cholley, Jean-Pierre Garuet, Franck Tournaire, Christian Califano (hey did anybody see what happened to Califano’s tounge in the Dakar rally – disgusting!) etc.

  Of all the props from all the countries I probably feel safest picking Paparemborde at loose-head and Price at tight-head. That’s based solely on reputation! I wouldn’t worry about Leonard since he was never the world’s best prop at any point in time. His longevity is to be respected, but Phil Vickery at his best was certainly better. Vickery is underrated in how well he got around the ground!

  I think most people would pick Fitzy at hooker in their all-time side since he was an All Black hooker for 11 years and a legendary captain. But watching the Caviliers tour of 1986 has me thinking Uli Schmidt might have been the greatest hooker ever. Unfortunately I’ll never be able to fully believe that because he had a limited oppotunity to prove himself. What I can say is that he was a ridiculously explosive runner for a front-row forward and the ball skills of a back and he scored a phenominal try in one ’86 game sprinting down the side-line like a winger and pulling off an outragous side-step for a hooker. He also had a genuine mean streak in him when he got on the rugby field.

  Will Carling thought enough of him to say he was the best hooker ever. I once heard that Schmidt got the better of Fitzy in the one-off game in 1992, but I wouldn’t trust the source I heard that from.

  If not for South Africa’s isolation I think there’s a very good chance the name of Uli Schmidt, Danie Gerber and Carel du Plessis would make most all-time XV’s.

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 6:06pm
  Frank O'Keeffe said | January 6th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment

  Sheek,

  “And there’s the problem of having 12 poms, & 24 guys from Britain & Ireland (out of 25) selecting an all-time team.”

  Despite the fact that South Africa and New Zealand have the two greatest rugby histories, I think it’s fair to have so many different players from many different countries in the backline.

  If you read my nominations for the forwards pack above, I tend to limit it mostly to SA and NZ. I thought about Greyling and Ellis before any infamous loosies from the northern hemisphere like Ivor Jones or Rives etc. I’m not saying NZ or SA haven’t had brilliant backs who deserve consideration, but having a backline with nobody from SA or NZ doesn’t look biased or unfair.

  As for the pack, while no two countries have consistently produced great forwards like NZ and SA, it’s not uncommon for countries for find a rare jem. For example, John Eales or Gordon Brown.

  I forgot to select my all-time side. It changes from time to time, but right now I’d go with…

  1. Robert Paparemborde
  2. Sean Fitzpatrick
  3. Graeme Price
  4. Colin Meads
  5. Frik du Preez
  6. Jan Ellis
  7. Michael Jones
  8. Zinzan Brooke
  9. Gareth Edwards (reluctantly!)
  10. Mark Ella
  11. David Campese (even though he played right-wing more often)
  12. Phillipe Sella
  13. Danie Gerber
  14. Gerald Davies
  15. Serge Blanco

  subs: Topo Rodriguez, Uli Schmidt, John Eales, Jean Pierre-Rives, Ken Catchpole, Hugo Porta, Mike Gibson (who could play almost anywhere in the backline).

  If I had to pick a dream side I’d want to see, but couldn’t pick as a true all-time XV (because of apartied boycotts etc or injuries etc or perhaps I just haven’t seen enough of them) I’d go with:

  1. Christian Califano
  2. Uli Schmidt
  3. Topo Rodriguez
  4. Frik du Preez
  5. John Eales
  6. Jan Ellis
  7. Michael Jones
  8. Zinzan Brooke
  9. Ken Catchpole
  10. Mark Ella
  11. Carel du Plessis
  12. Phillipe Sella
  13. Danie Gerber
  14. David Campese
  15. Andy Irvine

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 6:08pm
  ohtani's jacket said | January 6th 2009 @ 6:08pm | Report comment

  I don’t agree with putting Campo on the right wing so you can have Lomu on the left. You either choose one or the other. Likewise Meads and Eales both wore the number 5 jersey and Pienaar was an openside flanker. A four way tie at first five makes this an all-time great XVIII and that doesn’t look like the greatest front row ever to me.

  Oh, and Sid Going, Laidlaw and Dave Loveridge were all fine NZ halfbacks. Bachop was talented too.

  Reply

• January 6th 2009 @ 6:35pm
  Frank O'Keeffe said | January 6th 2009 @ 6:35pm | Report comment

  Some food for thought…

  Bob Dwyer’s World XV (1982-2003) from Full Time: A Coach’s Memoir

  1. Topo Rodriguez (Australia)
  2. Sean Fitzpatrick (New Zealand)
  3. Olo Brown (New Zealand)
  4. Martin Johnson (England)
  5. John Eales (Australia)
  6. Abdelatif Benazzi (France/Morocco)
  7. Michael Jones (New Zealand)
  8. Buck Shelford (New Zealand)
  9. Dave Loveridge (New Zealand)
  10. Mark Ella (Australia)
  11. Jonah Lomu (New Zealand)
  12. Tim Horan (Australia)
  13. Phillipe Sella (France)
  14. David Campese (Australia)
  15. Serge Blanco (France)

  subs: Jason Leonard (England), Keith Wood (Ireland), Andy Hayden (New Zealand), Josh Kronfeld (New Zealand), Nick Farr-Jones (Australia), Jonathan Davies (Wales), Michael O’Connor (Australia)

  Bob Dwyer’s Australian XV (1982-2003) from Full Time: A Coach’s Memoir

  1. Topo Rodriguez
  2. Phil Kearns
  3. Ewen McKenzie
  4. Tim Gavin
  5. John Eales
  6. Viliami’ Ofahengaue
  7. Simon Poidevin
  8. Steve Tuynaman
  9. Nick Farr-Jones
  10. Mark Ella
  11. David Campese
  12. Tim Horan
  13. Michael O’Connor
  14. Ben Tune
  15. Matt Burke

  subs: Tony Daly, Tommy Lawton, David Giffen, David Wilson, George Gregan, Stephen Larkham, Jason Little

  Greatest Springboks XV – by Andy Colquhoun and Paul Dobson

  15. HO de Villiers
  14. Ray Mordt
  13. Danie Gerber
  12. Japie Krige
  11. Carel du Plessis
  10. Naas Botha
  9. Danie Craven
  8. Doug Hopwood
  7. Jan Ellis
  6. Hennie Muller (capt)
  5. Frik du Preez
  4. Phil Mostert
  3. ‘Boy’ Louw
  2. Jan Lotz
  1. Chris Kock.

  Substitutes: Uli Schmidt, Barry (‘Fairy’) Heatlie, Martin Pelser, Johan Claassen, Joost van der Westhuizen, John Gainsford, Gerry Brand.

  Will Carling’s all-time XV
  1. Fran Cotton
  2. Uli Schmidt
  3. Graeme Price
  4. Martin Johnson
  5. John Eales
  6. Richard Hill
  7. Michael Jones
  8. Zinzan Brooke
  9. Gareth Edwards
  10. Hugo Porta
  11. David Duckham
  12. Frank Bunce
  13. Danie Gerber
  14. David Campese
  15. Serge Blanco

  Barry John’s All-Time XV – http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/rugby_union/914872.stm

  1. Ken Gray (New Zealand)
  2. Sean Fitzpatrick (New Zealand)
  3. Graeme Price (Wales)
  4. Colin Meads (New Zealand)
  5. John Eales (Australia)
  6. Viliami ‘Ofahengaue (Australia)
  7. Ian Kirkpatrick (New Zealand)
  8. Mervyn Davies (Wales)
  9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
  10. Hugo Porta (Argentina)
  11. Jonah Lomu (New Zealand)
  12. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
  13. Jo Maso (France)
  14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
  15. JPR Williams (Wales)

  Bill McLaren’s All-Time XV – http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_rad…ial/1842121.stm

  1. Fran Cotton (England)
  2. Sean Fitzpatrick (New Zealand)
  3. Graeme Price (Wales)
  4. Colin Meads (New Zealand)
  5. Frik du Preez (South Africa)
  6. Zinzan Brooke (New Zealand)
  7. Fergus Slattery (Ireland)
  8. Mervyn Davies (Wales)
  9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
  10. Rob Andrew (England)
  11. David Campese (Australia)
  12. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
  13. Danie Gerber (South Africa)
  14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
  15. Andy Irvine (Scotland)

  Replacements: J Leonard (England), K Wood (Ireland), J Eales (Australia), I Kirkpatrick (New Zealand), N Farr-Jones (Australia), M Lynagh (Australia), M Burke (Australia).

  Martin Johnson’s All-Time XV – http://blogs.sarugby.com/2007/08/03/martin…ns-all-time-xv/

  1. Jason Leonard, England: “Solid as a rock, was regularly asked to play on both sides of the scrum and never moaned. His record of four World Cups and two finals says it all.”

  2. Sean Fitzpatrick, New Zealand: “Played for the All Blacks for ten years, a fantastic competitor and a great captain.”

  3. Jean-Pierre Garuet, France: “From the old school of scrummagers, played in the 1987 final, a nuggety, fierce-looking guy.”

  4 and 5. Frik du Preez, South Africa and Colin Meads, New Zealand: “The 1990s was a great era for locks. There were Robin Brooke and Ian Jones for New Zealand; Australia had John Eales; South Africa had Mark Andrews. I could have picked any of them but I’ve gone for some older players. Both Du Preez and Meads played in the 1960s but were very modern players. Meads was the greatest ever All Black; Frik was very quick and athletic. I wasn’t in their league.”

  6. Richard Hill, England: “It was a difficult choice but Hill, a quiet guy, very understated, was the pick. When he was with the Lions teams, if he didn’t play, we didn’t win. He would be embarrassed to be in this side, but he deserves it.”

  7. Michael Jones, New Zealand: “Sean Fitzpatrick says he was the greatest player he ever played against, a mythical figure.”

  8. Wayne Shelford, New Zealand: “Buck was at his peak for the World Cup final in 1987. I remember watching him as a 16-year-old on the terraces at Leicester a year earlier and saw him charge down the flank, chip the ball over the wing and score a try. Not bad for a back row.”

  9. Gareth Edwards, Wales: “The Welsh have put mythical status on Edwards and their 1970s players, but Rob Howley was almost as good and scored some great tries. Joost van der Westhuizen was the best scrum half I played against.”

  10. Jonny Wilkinson, England: “I could have gone for Phil Bennett, Michael Lynagh, Stephen Larkham or others but Jonny is special, not just for his kicking. I remember in the 2003 Grand Slam decider in Dublin, Ireland attacked down the right and Jonny was there to stop them; then they switched quickly to the left and Jonny was there to stop them too.”

  11. Jonah Lomu, New Zealand: “Not much difficulty in choosing one of the most awesome wings to have ever played.”

  12. Danie Gerber, South Africa: “Scored a hat-trick against England in the first half in one match in the 1980s. He didn’t play many Tests because of apartheid, but he had power and pace. I don’t know if he could pass: it seemed like he never needed to. I played against him in a charity match in 1996 when he must have been well into his 40s, he was still awesome.”

  13. Philippe Sella, France: “I used to watch him as a kid on TV and think he was brilliant; and then ten years later I played against him and he was still brilliant. He still looks as if he could play for France today. One of the best backs I’ve ever seen. If you hit him it was like running into concrete.”

  14. Joe Roff, Australia: “You’d put David Campese up there but Roff is my choice. A fantastic all-round rugby player, and old-style wing.”

  15. Serge Blanco, France: “A great France full back who dominated games.”

  Paul Ackford’s response to Martin Johnson’s XV – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtm…5/srackf205.xml

  Martin Johnson revealed his best-ever 15 last week, a cornucopia of the greatest talent ever to play ruby union. The side comprised five from New Zealand, three from England and France, two from South Africa and one each from Australia and Wales. It’s not a bad selection but it’s not one to set the pulse racing. In fact, it’s fashioned in the public image of the man himself: dour, combative and uncompromising.

  Flair players are thin on the ground. Take out Gareth Edwards, Serge Blanco and Philippe Sella and the remaining backs are bashers by instinct. It goes without saying that they are all great footballers and can play any which way they want but my memory of them is that they would choose to run through opponents rather than round them. Jonah Lomu certainly falls into that category, as does Danie Gerber, while Joe Roff and Jonny Wilkinson are celebrated more for their contribution to team dynamics than the ability to razzle dazzle themselves.

  advertisementUp front, it’s a similar story. Johnson plumps for substance over style. Jason Leonard, never the most punishing scrummager, is in for his resilience and durability. Richard Hill, like Leonard, is venerated for the work he does behind the scenes and that is pretty much true of the rest of the pack. It’s a struggle to find any virtuosos among the artisans. So, in the interests of putting bums on seats, and in the hope that the forthcoming World Cup throws up more candidates for debate, here is an alternative selection to take on Johnson’s.

  15. JPR Williams
  JPR Williams is in at full back ahead of Matt Burke. I did consider Christian Cullen who, for a while, was electric for the All Blacks in that position but Cullen could not sustain that brilliance. The truth is Johnno’s one-up on me with Blanco. I would have started him too.

  14. Gerald Davies
  11. David Campese
  Gerald Davies and David Campese are the wings. Lomu was a phenomenon of his time but I’m not sure he’d be as effective in today’s game where the gym culture has made freaks of every player. Campese and Davies never relied on out-and-out power. Both are steppers and both have innate rugby intelligence to rival Roth. John Kirwan, Jeff Wilson and David Duckham are the unlucky ones in this category.

  13. Jeremy Guscott
  12. Brian O’Driscoll
  Plenty of choice in the midfield with Jerry Guscott, still one of the best-balanced and effortless runners in the history of the game, in contention alongside Tim Horan. The great Mike Gibson is also in the mix as are Jason Little, Frank Bunce and Brian O’Driscoll. I’ve gone for O’Driscoll and Guscott, with O’Driscoll switching to inside centre to shore up the defence.

  10. Stephen Larkham
  No debate over outside half. Stephen Larkham controls the side because he has been doing just that for the Wallabies for a decade behind an ordinary pack and in the knowledge that every team he plays against is targeting him as Australia’s key individual. Barry John came close, Grant Fox was considered and Dan Carter might force a late change if he has a monumental World Cup.

  9. Josst van der Westhuizen
  Can’t argue about Johnson’s decision to pick Edwards but my man Joost van der Westhuizen will ruffle his feathers. The Bok was the most self-confident rugby player I’ve ever met, which is no bad thing in a game of this magnitude. Fabien Galthie, Justin Marshall and George Gregan are all worthy alternatives.

  8. Zinzan Brooke
  7. Richie McCaw
  6. Abdelatif Benazzi
  As for back row combinations? Not so cut and dried. There are plenty of 7s out there. Richie McCaw, Josh Kronfeld, Simon Poidevin, Peter Winterbottom, George Smith, Olivier Magne, Graham Mourie and Jean-Pierre Rives are all worthy of the berth. At blindside it came down to a scrap between Abdel Benazzi and Mike Teague with Zinzan Brooke slugging it out with Mervyn Davies and Dean Richards for the No 8 slot.

  Benazzi, McCaw and Brooke seemed to me to be the most potent trio but I would have been as happy with any of them as I am certain of a comprehensive and coruscating victory in the greatest match in rugby history.

  5. John Eales
  4. Willie John McBride
  Behind them, begging Meads’ pardon, comes the greatest lock pairing of all: Willie John McBride and John Eales. Even Johnson would struggle to split those two. Those four are so far ahead of the rest it wasn’t worth considering alternatives, even second rows as gifted as Andy Haden.

  3. Christian Califano
  2. Keith Wood
  1. Fran Cotton
  Ironically, it’s up front where my boys will sort Johnson’s lads out. Fran Cotton, Keith Wood and Christian Califano make up the front row and I challenge anyone to find a more abrasive, ball-handling trio than that.

  Eddie Butler’s picks for the 10 best five-eighths ever -
  http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0…,626700,00.html

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• January 6th 2009 @ 8:06pm
  sheek said | January 6th 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment

  Frank,

  Awesome stuff. Truly awesome stuff. The Roar should put your two articles on positional contenders in a vault somewhere. i’m going to print them off & place them in my special file (which is getting thicker).

  Now I would love Spiro to add to your thoughts.

  Re Edwards & Catchpole. Sadly, they never met in a test. The English President of the RFU claimed Catchpole was the greatest scrumhalf in the game in January 1967. I believe Edwards made his test debut in the following 5 Nations tournament a few weeks later.

  Edwards was better than Hipwell, who wasn’t quite in Catchpole’s class. But Hipwell did amazing things with poor ball from a weak pack, which is why I consider him superior to either Farr-Jones or Gregan. Neither of them were comfortable, & in fact got quite testy, with anything less than good ball, especially Gregan.

  I think one reason why Edwards always gets the top gong, is because there’s a pack of maybe a dozen players behind him, & deciding which of them is a worthy challenger is almost impossible.

  Also, I think some players get institutionalized in alltime selections. Daring to suggest someone else might be superior is an invitation to ridicule. For example, suggesting Eales might be superior to either Meads or du Preez is like suggesting we need to change Gods!

  Once again, great stuff Frank.

  Reply