Are Foster and Murray really anti-EPL?

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By dasilva, 22 Jan 2009 dasilva is a Roar Guru

Tagged:: A-League, Alex Ferguson, development, Ernie Merrick, football, Gerrard, Manchester United, Sydney FC, winning, youth league

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There is a perception that Craig Foster, Les Murray and the rest of the SBS team are prejudiced against English Football. But I don’t believe that these criticisms are fair.

Craig Foster has never said that every English coach plays long ball football and he has never said that every English club is bad at developing footballers. But it did say that it is the general standard.

People often try to counter his argument by bringing exceptions to the rule and quite often these exceptions are already pointed out by Foster and have been already praised.

When a manager, club or player from England excels, he always praises them. He believes that Terry Venables is the best coach he played with, and you would not see him accusing him of calling him a typical long-ball Manager.

Alex Ferguson is also praised and he is Scottish.

Clubs such as Manchester United, old Tottenham sides, Arsenal, pre-Mourinho Chelsea and Liverpool sides of the past, as well as players like Beckham, Joe Cole, Rooney, Gerrard, Gascoigne, Bobby Chalton and Gordan Banks, are always appliaded by Murray, Foster and others at SBS.

Closer to home, the likes of Ernie Merrick and Eddie Thompson have been complemented in the past, despite having a Scottish background.

Manchester United Youth Development Scheme was singled out for compliments in his ‘The Future is Small Part 1′ article and he has congratulated them in the past for not participating in the English FA youth league, believing it will harm the development of the youths as they are not on small sided fields.

This shows that while criticising the general standards of England’s youth development, he is also willing to complement progressive clubs who are an exception to the rule.

Foster’s main criticism of the general standards of England’s football culture is directed at the lower leagues, due to there being less foreign influence. Therefore his attacks on English football culture are related to the English Championship and below and not the EPL.

Is it wrong to say that the English Championship is lot more direct then most second division leagues in Europe?

The problem is that these anti-English football accusations often obscure genuine, debatable topics: do teams have an obligation to play entertaining football or to just win the match?

SBS believes that playing a brand of football that is entertaining to the neutrals is just as important as winning the match. So let’s debate that instead of worrying about their perceived prejudices.

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The Crowd Says (114) | Page 1 of Comments

Pippinu said | January 22nd 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment

Fos have a bad thing to say about English football? Never!

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dasilva said | January 22nd 2009 @ 7:40am | Report comment

The issue is not whether he has criticise English football. He sure has and he has done it vehemently. Sometimes fairly and sometimes unfairly.

However the issue is whether he is prejudice against English football. A bit different. He doesn’t tar all under the same brush due to nationality. That’s the main point.

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Slippery Jim said | January 22nd 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment

dasilva, the fact you repeatedly refer to Scottish coaches being praised by these guys is not terribly convincing, as they are not English, but I will cut you some slack as the original title was anti-englishbritish.

Simon Hill referred to “those who peddle anti-English propaganda”, almost certainly referring to Les Murray and Craig Foster. I really think you are kidding yourself dasilva if you think this is not a bias from those two. It is well known, I think there is no doubt that it is the case.

In a smarmy ESPN I-have-a-crush-on-Foster type of article, Foster, although clearly at pains to present himself in a positive light, admitted:

“Q: Your public stoushes have occasionally captivated the football community, but painted you as anti-British. What would you say about your feuds with Terry Butcher and Robbie Slater?

Craig Foster: Six years ago I began to point out the simple reality that British coaching culture and methodology is behind the best, that tactically British football is in the dark ages save for the few foreign dominated EPL clubs, that youth development in Britain lags well behind the best of Europe let alone South America, that technique is neither valued nor systematically trained, that the English coaching licenses are outdated, and that La Liga is technically the best league by some margin.”

Ironically, that same year the UEFA Champions League final did not feature any teams from La Liga, they were both English clubs, who had more English players in their first 11 than any other nationality. In fact three of the final four were English clubs, only one La Liga club was present in the final eight – which tends to show how wrong he was about the techical superiority of La Liga clubs.

Here is a quote from an article about Foster’s views on English football:

“Listening to 2SM’s Talking Football program yesterday, I was pleased to hear a caller extolling the sparkling display of Sydney FC against Perth on Sunday, and, as an aside, lambasting a certain SBS pundit…

What was perhaps most pleasing of all was that the caller in question was clearly of continental European descent. Clearly, Craig Foster’s constant, strident anti-English tirades have not just annoyed those of us who claim Anglo-Saxon ancestry (in case anyone’s interested, I’m Jewish on one side and a mix of English and Scottish on the other).

Foster’s angry reaction…was both predictable and premature. His understandable aversion to the current style of the English national side, and the English game in general, he shares with many of us. But his knee-jerk rejection of anything remotely British in origin when it comes to football only seems to date from his assumption of the chief analyst role at SBS. Whether the prevailing culture at the broadcaster has influenced the tenor of his punditry is a matter for (perhaps fruitless) speculation.

As for Foster’s oft-repeated axiom that the English fail miserably to develop young players, just yesterday I watched a virtual Manchester United B side, featuring many products of the youth system, play brightly and intelligently to defeat a club regularly commended by Foster – Ajax Amsterdam.”

Pretty mych says it all – if you google Anti-English and Craig Foster you will find an overwhelming number of bloggers stating that Craig Foster and Les Murray do have an anti-English/British bias.

This is largely, in my view due to the fact that Les Murray is a football neutral, he has no particular club that he follows and views the game as an amusing spectacle rather than passionately following one club that he wants to succeed. Which is also why I feel he has an emotional disconnect from what most actual fans of clubs experience.

One final point; I’m not sure how you can end your article “So let’s debate that instead of worrying about their perceived prejudices” when you article is clearly about said prejudices.

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Towser said | January 22nd 2009 @ 9:56am | Report comment

I would ask both Fossie & Les what do they really know about English Football. By really know I mean know like me what it is to be brought up in a Football city in England where the game is intertwined with life.
I learned Football on the street. We played Fossies SSG on the cobbles of back lanes,bomb sites neither surface offering billiard table conditions to learn Football. But When I listen to Fossie talk up his “Fossie Football” & Les look down from his Euro-Tower they are telling me nothing about football technique that scruffy, snot faced Ernie Arkwright & I didnt know.
We knew about trapping ,shielding, dribbling, passing in small spaces & keeping your balance when doing so because if you didnt the surfaces you would land up meant a hospital visit to the casualty ward.
I played with lads with Brazilian like skills with the tennis ball at times. In other words we knew what was required to play technical football.
Fossie & Les dont know this & thats why they & others dont understand English Football so what they see is Terry Butcher the version of what English Football fans expect a player to turn out to be. A Warrior rather than an artist. Therein lies the problem of English Football its not that they dont know whats required to be the artist but British culture & expectation wants the Warrior. So as you start to play football as an adult the warrior virtues overide the artistic virtues.
I know at least 2 ” artists” of my age who starred at Junior level played for Sheffield boys(a big honour) but as soon as they started to play senior football & were confronted by the “Warriors’(in my day in Sheffield usually burly steelworkers or miners.labourers etc) whose motto was ‘thi legs mine lad” silky ball skills were forgotten as self preservation took precedence. Within 2 years both gave the game away.
This of course is 40 years ago & much has changed due to the amount of foreigners & their influence on football in the EPL, but the legacy of “Warrior” football over “Artistic” Football is hard to shrug from the English psyche.
Poms know more than the Dynamic techni-duo will ever know about the skills of football ,they just choose to overlook them in favour of other more physical virtues.

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Midfielder said | January 22nd 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment

Das

You are having a new year joke .. I apptreciate this … for a mon I tho maybe Das is serious and then I remember you are young and are playing a joke on us old timers … Das next time tell us when you plan a joke of this sort.

How about Les & Foz are not in a phoney with Fox over the A-League … this would have people besides themselves with laughter.

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Koala Bear said | January 22nd 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment

Das,
well you stirred a few feathers on this one laddie .. However, I lean towards your verdict .. “Misunderstood” … Not that I would agree with Les and Fossie all of the time only 90% of the time .. But, yes your article is a very good analysis .. If the English FA could see that there is something wrong with the English game by once appointing Seven Goran Erikson .. than back to Steve McClaren then only wanting to employ a foreigner again; first target Scolari and now Campello .. Then yes, Fossie had indeed made some correct assumption about the English game .. If the English FA felt the way they did; I can’t understand why a lot of bloggers feel malice to Les and Fossie .?.. I love watching my team Chelsea when the opportunity arises in the UCL (SBS) .. However, I really like watching the Barcelona, the Real Madrid, AC Milan, and Inter as much..

A cheer on this one lad…

~~~~~~~~~~
KB

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Slippery Jim said | January 22nd 2009 @ 12:00pm | Report comment

KB, most national sides have employed foreign coaches, including France, Spain and the Netherlands – does that mean these countries have something “wrong” with their football??? Surely not!

Consider the following quote from an article on the subject of foreign coaches:

“But the notion that alien coaches are a foreign concept pun intended in the international game is wide of the mark. France were coached by an Englishman, Fred Pentland, in 1920, and had a Romanian, Stefan Kovacs, in charge between 1973-75. Spain have had three foreigners: the Franco-Argentine Helenio Herrara, the Hungarian Ladislav Kubala (1969-80) and Jose Emilio Santamaria, who played for Uruguay before Spain then coached them in the 1982 World Cup.

The most open-minded country towards imports for the top job is the Netherlands, where 20 foreigners have been the coach, and 12 Englishmen among them between 1908 and the 1960s, including Edgar Chadwick, Fred Warburton, Jesse Carver and George Hardwick. The Dutch have also had Austrians (Max Merkel, Ernst Happel), a Romanian (Elek Schwartz), a Czech (Frantisek Fadrhonc) and a German (George Kessler) at the helm. Happel was their most recent foreign coach.

Naturally enough, many nations hire foreign coaches while emerging see much of Asia and Africa for recent examples. The United States has hired from overseas more often than not, and Australia too, including their newest recruit, Dutchman Pim Verbeek. Terry Venables was only one of their foreign contingent, taking them to the brink of qualification for the 1998 World Cup, losing out to two late goals from Iran in the second leg of their play-off.

Turkey have had 16 foreign coaches, including four Englishmen. And even among the leading 25 nations in Fifa’s current rankings, seven of them, not including England, have foreign coaches: Portugal’s Brazilian, Luiz Felipe Scolari, Greece’s Euro 2004-winning German, Otto Rehhagel, Nigeria’s (and formerly Scotland’s) German, Berti Vogts, Paraguay’s Argentine, Gerardo Martino, Russia’s Dutchman, Guus Hiddink, Poland’s Dutchman, Leo Beenhakker and Cameroon’s German, Otto Pfister.”

As for your statement that you enjoy watching Barcelona, the Real Madrid, AC Milan, and Inter as much as Chelsea: Blasphemy of the highest order!!! >:(

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Pippinu said | January 22nd 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment

Another great post Towser (and SJ, I think yours was spot on as well).

I have always found this view of English football (as is often described by Fos) to be far too cliched to be of any merit. Sure, I will revel in England’s lack of success, or enjoy watching them struggle against the likes of Macedonia, much as I might enjoy watching Collingwood lose a grand final, but Fos definitely crossed the line a long time ago between simple, harmless banter and having a complete fixation.

I’ve watched “latin” teams like Italy and France play England a number of times, and they have always been very, very tight games. In 1977, Italy and England defeated each other 2-0 in their respective home games (for the 78 qualifiers). In the 1982 WC, England gave France a 3-1 touch up in the first round – and it was a against a great French team too. Even before the current dominance of the EPL, English teams did very well in the European comps, going back to the earliest days.

There is not a country in the world who would walk into a fixture against England and think that they were in for an easy match.

I think it was Zola who was asked this very question about a year ago – and here is someone who is very well credentialled to give a knowledgeable response. His assessment is that there is no difference in technique between English players, and the latins, but that the latins might be given more encouragement to play with what he called “fantasy” (a literal translation of the Italian word “fantasia” which in this context would mean: imagination, creativity and embellishment).

People will often confuse a player’s “creativity”, or tendency to be “creative”, with technique – they are two different things.

And I think Towser’s excellent post touches on this very point. The English player can handle the round ball as well as the latin, in terms of technique and proficiency, it’s just that the latin might receive more encouragement in terms of creativity and embellishment than the English player does – this is a cultural thing and has little to do with technique as such.

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dasilva said | January 22nd 2009 @ 2:54pm | Report comment

SJ

My original article was anti-british. In any case SBS has pissed off the scottish community even more then the English due to Fozzy disrespect of Rangers and Celtic during the Champions League/Uefa cup coverage receiving a lot of hate mail so I believe that is relevant.

EPL top 4 is generally always exempt from criticism from Les and Craig at SBS when it comes to quality and technical standards (although not always style of football which is another topic). Have you notice criticism of EPL – most of the time he’ll say outside the top 4 “insert criticism of english football”. It’s true that the top end players of England are world class but does that reflect the general standards? No

English FA admits there is a problem with technical standards in England and there are currently undergoing reforms. Is pointing that out anti-English? No

Recently in a euro youth tournament (it was an under 20′s and qualification for the beijing olympics) an English side reach the semi-final only losing to Netherlands in a penalty shootout. Pretty good achievement you think? surely that rubbish Fozzy claims on lack of technique. Well not really. Reports were that the dutch dominated the match and were clearly technically superior to the youth team. It was only the work ethics and fighting spirit of the English team that made them last to a penalty shootout. Be careful when pointing out this team beat this team or did well therefore technically superior. Adelaide defeated Kashima and were superior team overall in that match – we weren’t technically superior though.

Yes Manchester United defeated Ajax youth team. However like i said in this article itself, Craig Foster is a fan of the youth policy of Manchester United so really that points means absolutely nothing.

____________________________

The problem with Fozzy and Les are they are zealots in terms of style of football. I was pretty put off by some of their coverage of Champions league and saying that Celtic without nakumura are barely a football club. They only want to see attractive technical style of football and are intolerant of clubs that play otherwise. I agree that’s a huge problem with SBS as they don’t understand the prospective of the fans of the club who want to see the club win and that clubs have to make do with the talent they got. However that’s a completely different issue then whether they are pro or anti-english. Craig Foster hates clubs like Celtic, Rangers, Benitez’s and Houllier’s Liverpool, Mourinho’s Chelsea because of their style of play. Has nothing to do with their English/British/Scottish etc.

In fact the most hated coach by Craig Foster would probably be Gerrard Houllier (and he ain’t english). during the shootout he lash out at the suggestion that Houllier would coach the socceroos (when Lowy was trying to get him). Craig said that houllier had no respect in france and that the general perception was that he is a mercenary and is only interested in money. He also started complaining about the style of football he implemented in Liverpool. It was probably the most vicious criticism he made of any coach since the infamous Ange Postecoglu interview.

Now is Craig Foster anti-French now?

Of course not – The fact that coaches are English/british/scottish had never been a factor. the issue was always about style of football and has absolutely nothing to do with nationality.

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dasilva said | January 22nd 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment

Towser/PIp

Interesting points you bring out. However isn’t that the point of Fozzy and SBS for a long time. That the culture of england favours physique over creativity. That they value and admire the battler and that Australia has inherited those traits.

There main critique is that those cultural values of celebrating physique over creativity are not conducive of winning football matches and if Australia ever wants to be contenders for the world cup then we have to change our perceptions and cultural values of what makes a good footballer.

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