Pay TV deals will be based on subscription growth. How S14 achieves that in Australia with heavy exposure to relatively saturated Pay TV markets in NSW / QLD and ACT is the key.

For decades the English Country Cricket Championships helped hone the skills of numerous foreign players, while sending England backwards. While the EWCB got rich, the national team became talent poor.

Much the same could be said for the EPL & the England football team. Also, those great underachievers of international football – Spain – whose clubs & Premier League were the standard bearers in quality & revenue for decades.

Now the same is happening with English Rugby & the Guinness premiership; & French rugby & the Top 14. It’s great they allow overseas players into their leading clubs. But they’ve gone crazy on the idea. With the consequence native born players are being marginalised.

If any good will come of the financial downturn, it will force clubs & controlling bodies to remove the excesses from their game, & adopt a common sense approach (if that is at all possible!!!).

And in recents recessions (obviously not as sizeable as the current one though) Pay-TV subscriptions have actually increased rather than reduced. Apparently this has been put down to families deciding that in tough times they should stay at home more, rather than going out, and they still see Pay-TV as a valuable investment.

So the 2010 TV rights renewal shouldn’t be too much doom and gloom for SANZAR. It will instead be the FTA supported activities that will be hit the most by the recession.

As for the French invasion, it would be nice if Laporte and Lapasat could figure out a way to prevent too many ‘foreigners’ from playing French (and English) club rugny. It must certainly start to affect their national sides eventually, but previously the Kolpak situation has prevented any such discrimination by nationality. An ideal world for the sport globally would be the prevention of hiring other Tier 1 players, while players from lower Tier naitons (like Romania, Georgia, Pacific Islands etc) could earn a living from their sport and play in a pro environment. But all that is a long way off though.

I also agree that the times must be becoming marginalised for some of these big spending foreign clubs, yet they still continue to grow their wealth and continue to offer massive money to lure talent. It seems that while these French clubs are run by rich individuals, they are not the same super rich guys invested in English Futbol etc. Maybe they are in safer waters because offers like those given to Flutey, Haskell and Frans Steyn are still sizeable.

you are definitely right about the foreigners hurting the French national sides prospects – whilst it has benefits the likes of the Islands, Georgia and Argentina by exposing their players to a professional setup and made plenty of Saffas and Kiwis wealthy, I can see the French rugby side going to way of the English futbol side for the same reasons.

So apart from clubs like Bayonne trying to lure Benji Marshall to play along side Craig Gower you now have Brive signing English players like Andy Goode and now Riki Flutey, the Kiwi who England have so hypocritically recruited and namedd in the elite player squad before he had yet to reach residency time, is off to Bayonne. With other Wasps (and Enlgand) players James Haskell and Tom Palmer leaving to play for Ewen McKenzies Stade Francais there has been a hole ripped through the heart of the London Wasps club.

Rumours have obviously been ripe also regarding Danny Ciprianni, but he is apparently gunna sign on for another year for Wasps and see what offers he can field after that. I find it ironically amusing that the Guinness Premiership clubs (Premier Rugby) has once again hurt the national teams chances of a stable platform. Just when the RFU thought they were getting somewhere with the agreement to make payments to whichever club could produce national talent, the clubs instead take all the money and put it into a shared pot. So teams like Wasps, who claimed to have had to return over 700,000pounds to the pooled fund, get as much for having to release a multitude of England stars. While teams like Worcester, who are full of foreigners, get money for nothing. And the end result is that Wasps can’t afford to keep their England players at the club and they all leave for France, where the RFU and Premier Rugby multi million dollar deal means jack all.

No preference and no requirement for the French clubs to release their players for England. And the trend is likely to continue even further, with more ProD2 clubs (like Racing Metro) ambitious about getting into the Top14 and willing to spend the money to get there.

So finally the English club might start to feel a bit of what South Africa, Australia and New Zealand have felt over recent years when their clubs can’t afford to hold onto their players thanks to richer pastures. What must sting England the most is that France is right next door, but with a warmer climate and increasingly more money. Maybe, now that self interest serves their cause, the RFU will start to think about ways that poorer clubs and coutries can protect their talent from millionaire European club owners.

True enough. A lot of posts are along the lines of – “I know, you don’t”, or “you’re a dope, no you’re a dope”, or “its blue, no its black”, etc, etc, etc.

Brett,

I refuse to visit Oz rugbyheaven which is, or was, run by the same mentality as I described above to True Tah. A thought to keep in mind if SANZAR ever collapses – “when one door closes, another door opens somewhere else”.

Whatever replaces SANZAR, if it comes to pass, might actually be better, providing we’ve done some preparation. For example, a somewhat historical return to rotational tours of SA, NZ & OZ appeals to me.

And I agree on the whole that the obvious starting point in Aust and NZ teams. 5 + 9 would seem a workable number of teams, and you’d probably want the comp to be a full home and away draw, so that Wallabies and ABs only miss the TNs period. Run the finals toward the end of the year, and with all players available. And go back to regional names!!

BTW, my last comment wasn’t so much about The Roar, but i do take your point. But in this case I was referring to this story (SAf quitting Super rugby) not even featuring on the Sydney, sorry, Australian RugbyHeaven site, while it’s the lead story on the NZ equivalent. The Oz and Foxsports sites are obviously still running it too….

all the rage on the futbol blogs seems to be over their issues with AFL and some post match comments made by the Adelaide coach, whereas the rugby posters actually talk about the games.

The above discussions don’t include the 3N, which I believe the Saffies still want to be a part of, irrespective of where their provincial sides are playing. Smart thinking on their part.

And I agree, NZ could quickly get back on their feet much quicker than Oz, if the S14 fell over. Although the Kiwis mightn’t be able to access as much funds as Oz, they have the advantage of a powerful provincial set-up.

At the moment, NZ domestic rugby is inefficient. If they reduced the 26 provinces to say, 2 divisions of 8 (total 16), they would reduce a lot of inefficiency, I might suggest.

This still leaves Oz out on a limb. We might think we’re very clever, using the Kiwis & Saffies to help give us a pseudo domestic comp. But if we’re abandoned, we’re going to look very foolish indeed. Striking a deal with the Kiwis over a Trans-Tasman comp becomes even more imperative as a fallback position.

I shy away from having a comp involving teams/countries from all over the pacific, or before, right across the southern hemisphere. You can of course, but I wouldn’t want it to be going past 10 weeks absolute maximum. You need pools, & access to one bye round per team.

Brett,

I notice on this ‘The Roar’ quite often, soccer stories get gangbuster replies compared to rugby articles. And occasionally, even AFL stories. For a site that began primarily as a rugby site, it’s a sad indictment of the passion of rugby fans, that we get “out-passioned” by the footy fans!

“Brett,

This is another reason why I have made my suggestion of truncating the S14, & giving glory back to the national domestic comps. In South Africa’s case, the Currie Cup.

My intention is to partly appease SA. I for one take their threat seriously to defect SANZAR. Unlike NZ, who needs Australia’s greater financial resources, SA doesn’t need Australia or NZ, either for finances, or players/teams. NZ on the other hand, have the players/teams, but require Oz’s greater financial resources.

A Trans-Tasman comp is still very feasible of course. However things pan out, Australia & NZ are more vulnerable than SA, which can stand alone if needs be. Oz & NZ need to work out contingency plans that may both include & exclude SA.

In any case, I have argued hard Australia is leaving itself exposed by failing to do something to develop a national domestic comp, however difficult the prospect may appear.”

Sheek, couldn’t agree more, and this potential move by SAf highlights just how exposed Australia could be. As you say, SAf could easily stand alone with the Currie Cup, and I’d even argue that if the NPC was to go back to full-pro status, after an initaial period of hurt, it may well propser again for NZ rugby. At that point, the ARU would have a serious problem, as no-one is going to put up with NSW, Qld, ACT & WA playing each other for very long.

Some kind of Trans-Tasman comp, or maybe a Pacific rim comp (as suggested on NZ RugbyHeaven) with Japan, the PIs, and the Americas, needs to be considered urgently.

(BTW, a sad indication of the local RH site, that this story doesn’t even feature. RH NZ and The Oz have it as lead stories…)

Watne Smith’s article from The Australian today: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25064310-2722,00.html

The Air NZ Cup will be, but goodness knows what that will be worth if SANZAR and the NZRU continue to undermine it’s importance and push the Super14 longer (and take out the AB’s completely). The irony there is that Aussie rugby fans yearn for the creation of a genuine domestic provincial competition while JON’s Super14 push continues to degrade what has been the world best provincial competiton.

Fans in NZ seem less and less interested in these competitions by the year, simply because the game seems to be growing away from them and the ideals they once represented. It would be ironic if Super rugby was to evolve into and expanded number of franchises and then into a conference style system only to become a qualifying tournament, like the Heineken Cup whereby you have to be the top 2 in your conference/ local group to make the finals. Why not just play the Super 14 as a qualifying tournament for domestic provincial teams from NZ, SA, Arg and Japanese company teams? The only thing missing is enough Australian representation.

Maybe JON should simply allow more foreign based players into the Aussie sides (aimed mainly at players from Asia, the Pacific and Americas) and simply introduce two new teams into Victoria and West Sydney? Then reduce the foreign quotas over a number of years until they are 90% Aussie qualified players? What I can’t really fathom is the huge cost of continual travel across the Tasman and Indian Ocean (and Australia) coupled with the known idea that local derbies are better supported by walk up crowds and TV audiences, yet the whole foundation of the Super14 is in play every single team when the costs are huge and the crowds are low?

Surely the ROI for a H-Cup qualifying style tournament is far more cost effective?

I predict that the super series will devolve in to domestic tournaments for practical reasons: to save money on airfares and accommodation. Common sense will prevail and teams representing traditional “geographic” areas will replace “franchises”. Which franchise do you support? Ummm, McDonalds?

Sheek, you will eventually get your national club/provincial tournament, but probably not the way you think you will.

Also, while soccer is undoubtedly well established in Asia, it has done so without the guidance or assistance of Australian Soccer. This differs significantly from the opportunity of Rugby Union whereby Japan Rugby (and the other emerging rugby nations of asia) offer the opportunity for serious financial incentives directly into the coffers of the ARU. And of all the established Rugby nations on the planet Australia is the closest geographically, has the most similar timezones and has also done more trumpeting for the asian rugby cause. Hence why they have a great opportunity Waterboy. It is true that the NRL and AFL are on the doorstep to Asia also, but it is soccer (who has already been invited in for the odd party) and Rugby Union (who has the spare key) that are best poised to take advantage of that potential.

As for the lack of financial clout and exposure to the masses, they aren’t necessarily inclusive ideas. Pay TV is where the money is globally, not FTA. FTA is what keeps the kids interested in the game, whereas the Pay TV keeps the best athletes in your sport. Rugby Union has a pretty solid financial base, even in Australia. It’s no secret the money on offer nowadays for Rugby Union players in Europe and Japan comes from wealthy individuals and companies who are passionate and supportive of the game. Sometimes being an upper-middle class supported sport has it’s benefits I guess? Although I can’t really relate to that notion coming from NZ.

But if Union is Australia was really in financial trouble I’d imagine that JON and the ARU would have to relinquish their control over domestic player contracts and sell the 4 Super franchises to private investors, as is the case throughout Europe. I’m sure they could find 4 very wealthy groups to ease the burden of the ARU having to pay all those players. That would leave the profit from the Test matches to go straight into the games growth.

This may well end up the case anyway if the two Hemispheres are ever able to agree to an international calendar where club vs country conflicts are removed. Coz the ARU would loathe to end up in the RFU’s position of having to beg/pay for player release anytime they need to change their minds.

The Super League is a fair enough call Waterboy, but surely League already had a leg up in Australia thanks to Unions amateurism. Look how fast Union has grown internationally since the game went pro 13 years ago. What’s gunna happen in the next 13 years? I though these were just regular tints, not those fancy rose ones.

Those rose coloured glasses of yours has the administrators of the other codes smiling, and what is holding back your code. By all means be positive, but you have to be realistic.

Union is on the doorstep of Asia…….so what. Aren’t the three other codes also? If any code has a foothold in Asia and an opportunity to capitalise on it financially, its soccer

For both soccer and Union your biggest problem can be summed up in one sentence…NO FREE TO AIR DEAL!

Without one, you have no financial clout, and no exposure to the masses.

I think it is fair to say that the residents of Unions heartland in Sydney is more likely to be able to afford Pay TV than the occupants of League’s traditional heartland. Yet Toyota Cup outrates Super 14 on Pay TV. Rose coloured glasses Matty.

Without a free to air deal, you’ll only ever be a bit player on the Australian sporting landscape.

Many contributors to this topis have esposed the performance of the AFL administrators and how they haven’t put a foot wrong over the last 20 years. I agree they have done very well, most specifically having everyone rowing in the same direction by way of an independent commission running the code. But no one seems to have mentioned the most obvious reason the gap between AFL and League has widened in the last 20 years as the number one and two codes. That reason is Super League.

AFL never had to endure an issue that took League to the precipice practically, financially and emotionally.

Super League was a massive leg up for all rival codes in NSW and Qld. With League on its knees, and completely exposed, no other code was able to deliver the knockout blow.

For League to be back where it is in just over a decade since is a miracle in itself.

Does anyone know the number of junior clubs, and junior participation numbers, League compared to Union in WA?

Where will the players come from? This is obviously the major problem, & there’s no avoiding the reality – initially, we’re going to have to accept a reduction in quality per team. Obviously.

At present Australia has about 132 professional players across 4 franchises. Each has an academy of about, I don’t know, let’s say 20 players.

Each of the 8 provinces will require 35 players. The above 132 divided more or less equally, will mean 16-17 players per province. Academy players makes another 2-3 per province. You could open up 5 positions per province to islanders (Fiji, Samoa, Tonga).

Perhaps also you could open up another 5 positions to other nationalities (NZL, RSA, Britain, Ireland, France, etc). That’s brings us up to about 28-29 players per province. The remaining 6-7 per province will have to come predominantly from Sydney & Brisbane PR. Who knows, many league players might become interested?

What is obvious, is that the 8 provinces & ARU would have to work their buts off developing pathways & player participation numbers in each province, especially the non-traditional rugby states. The hope is, 10 years down the track, South Australia for example, would be producing provincial players from their own junior ranks system, instead of interstate.

When that happens, the number of overseas players quota can be looked at, & pealed back, if that’s practical. One other thing i forgot to mention – there’s heaps of players plying their trade in Britain, Ireland, France, Italy & Japan. How many – 100 plus? How many of these guys might be enticed back to Australia to appear for an APC province?

If/when the APC is up & running successfully, it will scare the pants off NZ. Especially the potential for money the APC could generate. It’s true NZ can’t sustain the number of provinces they currently have. But that’s their problem to resolve.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Can I see daylight at the end of the tunnel? Or is that a train coming towards me!

Remy,

It is not my intention to dissolve the S14 or equivalent. However, as I’ve tried to explain in other posts in other threads you can’t have a 14-16 week S14 comp PLUS a 8-10 week APC. Something has to give!

In order to implement the 8-10 week APC, the S14 needs to be truncated into a Heineken Cup style format of similar 8-12 weeks duration.

Also, it’s not practical to have a full home & away APC (each team playing each other twice) of 14-16 weeks, similar to the AFL , NRL & HAL. The Wallabies are required to still play a minimum of 10-12 tests per year, of which the domestic component (including away matches to ABs & Boks) would account for about 7 out of 10.

To have leading Wallabies miss 7 out of 14 APC home & away matches is too many, I think. That is why I’ve gone for a truncated S14-16 comp early in the season, then the domestic tests, followed by the APC before the end of season Wallaby tour.

The international fixtures required (10-12 tests per annum) is a component of the season that the AFL, NRL & HAL don’t have to contend with. Although the Socceroos come closest to this figure.

With the APC, Australia is the last of the 4 southern hemisphere countries to inaugurate a national domestic comp. It is my suggestion the remodeled S16 comprise the first 4 provinces from each of Australia, New Zealand, South Africa & Argentina domestic comps.

They would be split into 2 pools x 8 (two provinces from each country per pool). Crossover quarters, semis & a final to follow – 11 weeks competition max.

Then would follow the 4N with the 4 southern hemisphere countries playing each other once (max 3 games). To have a full home & away program (6 matches each) might be too much. Especially for EVERY year.

Then the APC kicks in late August/early September to late October – 8 rounds including double up local derbies. Local derbies would be – NQ v Qld; EA v NSW; ACT v Vic; SA v WA. This gives everyone an even 4 home & 4 away games. Semis & a final to follow.

Would the media moguls buy this? Well, consider this, with Fox Sports as our example:

1. They still have the Wallabies playing a minimum of 10-12 tests per year.

2. They still have a S14, now a S16, comprising Argentine provinces – 16 weeks x 94 matches changed to 11 weeks x 63 matches.

3. They still have a 3N, now expanded to 4N including Pumas – either 6 or 12 games total, compared to current 9 games.

4. There is now also an APC – 10 weeks x 35 matches.

Overall, similar total of matches for programming purposes. With APC replacing truncated S14-16 matches lost. Furthermore, reciprocal deals can be made between the host broadcasters of each country to view leading provincial games from their country. Also test matches outside 4N.

Also, co-operation between Fox Sports & ABC to broadcast leading PR club matches to each respective capital city. Finally, the sponsors would have to be happy. Not only would their products be advertised across the southern hemisphere, but also to every state & territory of Australia.

I know it’s not perfect. But I’ve gone to the best of my ability to combine desire with practicality, innovation with tradition.

Sheek, good stuff as always. Confirm my seat on the ‘wagon please, I’m in. I still think the Trans-Tasman comp has more legs, but I really enjoyed the ARC as a whole, and would love to see some kind major Australian rugby competition.

you’re beginning to convince me that perhaps we dont need a Trans-Tasman competition to sustain – we may be able to go it ourselves.

I would envisage that the top two teams could go to a Heineken Cup tournament with the best NZ/SA/Arg/Jap/Islander teams if possible. Perhaps start it basic and have Aust/NZ/Jap/Islander as a Pacific Style comp.

The main issues for mine are

-Where are the players going to come from?? Lets face it, Australia does not have enough decent players ATM, but I think the situation has much improved from a few years ago, with the Force – a lot of guys are getting exposed to a higher standard of rugby – its no coincidence we are being spoilt for choice in the number of playmakers we’ve got.

There are a few solutions – I note the Fed Govt is keen to bring in Islander workers – Im just as keen to see some of these bloke arrive with a pair of boots instead of them heading to France and Japan – lets face it, they cant make a living in their homeland, and there’s not too many Islanders in a place like Adelaide – an Islander player like Finau Maka could become a cult figure in a place like Adelaide.

You could argue the same for Argentinan players, but I think the language barrier and the fact a lot of them qualify to play in france by having Italian/Spanish grandparents.

The other area is NZ – I can’t see how the Air NZ Cup can continue with 14 professional teams, this is going to have to be reduced, and this means reduced opportunities for players in NZ – like the Islands, its easy for Kiwis to come here (a little bit too easy I might add), so this seems the best decision. The Kiwis will whinge about it like most things, but this comp will hopefully mean that we dont need to rest of NZ Rugby to keep ourselves on life support and tell em to pay their players more.

To counter this the ARU has been pretty insular in its view to foreign players, look at the troubles they caused NSW when we wanted to sign the South African bloke…no such troubles for Qld and Force when they signed a bunch of Kiwis though.

the other main issue is $$$ – without NZ and SA the chances are any Pay TV will be a hell of a lot smaller than what it is now…I guess the apple would be the Heineken Cup style comp, if it involves Japanese teams, then it may carry the Australian domestic competition, sadly Pay TV seems to be the key for a successful sport. Whilst I think we could probably get some sponsorships on board (e.g. something I dont think would worry the Cockatoos), the new sides would need to be run as PE vehicles.

I dont know how crowds would go – judging from the ARC, I dont think Melbourne, ACT or Perth would have too much trouble getting crowds, nor would the Cockatoos. Adelaide would be a deadwood at first, as would Qld Country.

Sheek, to expand on your theory (and I do like it) do you think the ARU should scrap being part of the Super comp and develop an Australian Super League? Would this work? Would the TV deal be enough?

8 Australian teams could play in a 18 round comp with a final series after that of course.

Then, the best 2 teams from Aust, NZ and SA could play in a Tri-nations club championship and this could occur before the international series starts. Would this work? I think it may.

This model seems to work well with soccer (football) in Europe. Countries have their own leagues and the best few teams compete in the European and UEFA Cup. Both of these comps are very highly regarded.

The more I think of this, the more I wonder if it would be better. Imagine our top 30 players (in Aust) playing in an Australian domestic comp each year? The public could relate more to their teams and at least appreciate where the opposition are from.

It would probably also allow the ARU to focus more on local and club development.

And further, an enormous amount would be saved in accom and travel costs by not involving SA and NZ.

Personally, I’d much prefer to see the ‘tahs plays Melbourne than the Cheetahs (with all due respect).

ACT Brumbies – traditional colours blue & gold (used to play in blue & gold hoops, like Bay Of Plenty, NZ).

Shirt: dark blue saddle with gold bands on white; Shorts: dark blue; Sox: dark blue with gold bands on fold.

EA Cockatoos – carry over NSW Country colours of orange & black.

Shirt: orange, black collar; Shorts: black; Sox: black with orange fold.

NSW Waratahs – traditional colours Cambridge (sky) & Oxford (navy) blue.

Shirt: sky blue; Shorts: navy blue; Sox: navy blue with sky blue fold.

NQ Heelers – carry over Qld Country colours of royal blue & white.

Shirt: royal blue; Shorts: White; Sox: royal blue with white fold.

Queensland Reds – traditional colours of maroon (primary) & navy blue (secondary).

Shirt: Maroon; Shorts: navy blue; Sox: maroon with twin white bands on fold.

South Australia Falcons – primary colours red & navy blue; secondary colour gold. SA have so many shirt variations, I will go with the following.

Shirt: red & navy blue hoops (wide) each separated by gold bands (narrow); Shorts: navy blue; Sox: red with single gold & navy blue band on fold.

Victoria Axemen/Rebels – traditional colour navy blue; secondary colour white.

Shirt: navy blue & white hoops; Shorts: navy blue; Sox: navy blue & white hoops.

Western Australia Force – traditional colours yellow & black. You may not know the Force adopted their ocean blue jersey so as not to clash with Wellington Hurricanes in S14. However, they can revert to traditional colours in APC.

Shirt: yellow (or gold) with black (or blue) trim; Shorts: Black; Sox: black with yellow (gold) fold.

Either WA or EA may require slight tinkering to avoid colours clashing. That is, yellow/gold with orange.

Now try telling me none of this incorporates tribalism, history or tradition.