By sheek
February 16th 2009 @ 7:06am
Loading ...Related coverage
Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds: the best since 1974
With another season of Super 14 kicking off last weekend, I thought I would take a trip (another?) down memory lane.
The ACT became a separate union from NSW Country back in 1974, so I though that would be a good starting point to select the best players to represent the Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds. This gives us a span of 35 years (1974-2008), excluding this year, of course.
Many of Australia’s finest Wallabies have been produced in the past 35 years. With ACT, it allows me to select two of their pre-Brumbies favourite sons – Mick O’Connor and David Campese – both born and bred in the territory.
O’Connor’s Test career lasted just 4 years – 1979-82. He played for ACT 1979-80, Queensland 1981-82, before defecting to league and an even more glitttering career for the Kangaroos and NSW State of Origin.
Campese’s Test career endured from 1982-96. He represented ACT 1981-85 before transferring to NSW. Another pre-Brumbies player worth mentioning is Ricky Stuart. He played for ACT in 1986 and 87, when he was called up as a tour replacement to Argentina. The next year he was lost to rugby league. Yet another – prop Stu MacDougall - was a Wallaby between 1971-75.
Part of the criteria is that a player can only be chosen for one province. With ACT, it’s tricky since some of their finest were recruited from Sydney and Brisbane. Anyway, here goes.
ACT Brumbies 1974-2008.
15-David Campese, 14-Mick O’Connor, 13-Stirling Mortlock, 12-Pat Howard, 11-Joe Roff, 10-Steve Larkham, 9-George Gregan(c), 8-Jim Williams, 7-George Smith(vc), 6-Owen Finegan, 5-Justin Harrison, 4-David Giffin, 3-Ben Darwin, 2-Jeremy Paul, 1-Bill Young.
Bench: 22-David Knox, 21-Matt Giteau, 20-Ricky Stuart, 19-Brett Robinson, 18-Troy Coker, 17-Stu MacDougall, 16-Marco Caputo.
Notable omissions – Rod Kafer, Andrew Walker, Mitch Hardy, John Langford, Mark Chisholm, Pato Noriega.
NSW Waratahs 1974-2008.
15-Matt C. Burke, 14-Matt P. Burke, 13-Brett Papworth, 12-Mike Hawker, 11-Lote Tuqiri, 10-Mark Ella, 9-Nick Farr-Jones(c), 8-Tim Gavin, 7-Ray Price, 6-Simon Poidevin, 5-Steve Cutler, 4-David Vickerman, 3-Ewen McKenzie, 2-Phil Kearns(vc), 1-Topo Rodriguez.
Bench: 22-Glen Ella, 21-Gary Ella, 20-John Hipwell, 19-Greg Cornelsen, 18-Steve Williams, 17-Tony Daly, 16-Brendan Cannon.
Notable omissions – Phil Waugh, Rocky Elsom, Steve Tuynman, Willie Ofahengaue, Phil Cox, Mitchell Cox, Tony Melrose, Geoff Shaw, Gary Pearse.
QLD Reds 1974-2008.
15-Roger Gould, 14-Ben Tune, 13-Jason Little, 12-Tim Horan, 11-Brendan Moon, 10-Mike Lynagh(vc), 9-Peter Slattery, 8-Mark Loane, 7-David Wilson, 6-Toutai Kefu, 5-John Eales(c), 4-David Hillhouse, 3-Andy McIntyre, 2-Tom Lawton, 1-Tony D’Arcy.
Bench: 22-Dan Herbert, 21-Paul McLean, 20-Brian Smith, 19-Tony Shaw, 18-Rod McCall, 17-Dan Crowley, 16-Billy Ross.
Notable omissions – Chris Latham, Andy Slack, Paddy Batch, Peter Grigg, David Codey, Cameron Lillicrap, Mark McBain.
In my honest opinion, for the Reds, Gould beats Latham in a head-to-head contest, while on the bench McLean covers fullback as well as flyhalf. Also, for the Brumbies, I believe Howard was a more creative player than Giteau.
Some extraordinary talent spread throughout those three provinces, I’m sure you’ll agree. As a future exercise, I might look at region-of-origin for ACT, Newcastle-Hunter and North Queensland.
Going to the Waratahs v Brumbies blockbuster at ANZ Stadium, Saturday 24 April? If you're keen to meet up with other Roarers, register you interest and we'll keep you informed on the place to meet. Register now.
Get Australia's best Rugby opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(16)
JohnB said | February 16th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Sheek – only looking at the Qld side, and need more time! Convinced there must be alternatives to Brian Smith (but can’t think of a stand-out) and Bill Ross (Mark McBain? Stephen Moore?); want to find a place for Stan Pilecki and another for Garrick Morgan; back row is just a nightmare – Ilie Tabua, Chris Roche, Jeff Miller as immediate possibles; picking 2 of Herbert, McLean and Latham is a tricky one – Latham before Herbert maybe? Latham to cover back three, Lynagh to centre if necessary with McLean covering Lynagh and goalkicking. But well-played, 3 very good teams.
Harry said | February 16th 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Sheek i will return to this excellent post once I have done some work but your Qld team looks about right to me.
Very few quibbles – I would have Foley (who played the bulk of his career in Qld) ahead of Billy Ross on the bench.
Main changes at prop. I would have Pilecki as starting loosehead ahead of Darcy (great potential – but only really played 1 season of top flight rugby).
sheek said | February 16th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Guys,
I thought Billy Ross was technically the best Wallaby hooker of the past 35 years, certainly on a par with Lawton in that regard. McBain & Foley both outstanding, but I would select Reds hookers in this order – Lawton, Ross, McBain, Foley.
Sin-ick said | February 16th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Pat Howard on the Brumbies team????
I’m sorry mate, I couldn’t keep reading your artical after that. Pat Howard has to be one of the worst players to ever pull on a rugby jersey….. The mere fact he is classed as a Wallaby makes me think that even I should be given a cap…..
Pat Howard….pfft.
jonathan hughes said | February 16th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Guys,
Im always amazed when I hear of comparisons between past and preset players. I often hear that Ella, Farr Jones, and in the above, Gould were comparative to the likes of Larkam, Mortlock and now Latham. Now Im sorry .. its just plain wrong. Primarily because of the emergence of the professional era it is like comparing apples to oranges (so in a way not even worth doing). But I think when it does happen nostalgia gets in the way of reality. Let me take up the Latham / Gould example. Latham played 80 odd tests for Australia and scored a million and a half tries. He scored not one but around 50 individual tries length of the field tries for Queensland and single handedly propped up that side. His achievements for teh Wallabies was incredible. When you look at both the stats and the volume of rugby played he is unbeatable as a fulback. There is Latham and light not far behind. I know Gould et al were good in there time but unless you give them 5 days a week professional training we will never know if they match the superstars of today.
Harry said | February 16th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Pat Howard….pfft.
Is that you Jake?
sheek said | February 16th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Sin-ick,
The play on your moniker gives you away. Howard had a deploral test debut, but other than that was outstanding. He pushed the envelope, & made mistakes, but also did many good things.
Better to be a guy who made 10 mistakes but did a 100 good things than the guy who only made one mistake but also only did 5 good things. In my humble opinion.
Jonathon,
You hit the nail on the head – professional players have the OPPORTUNITY, denied to players of yesteryear. Accident of birth & timing? Now reverse your thinking – what if Gould had the opportunity given to Latham???
We’re not comparing tests played to tests played. We’re comparing the INFLUENCE every player has on his particular era in COMPARISON to other players in other eras. I hope this makes some sense?
For example, the great Dally Messenger only played 2 Wallaby tests & 7 Kangaroo tests. On the basis of your assumption he’s not worth a brass razoo of consideration. Yet because of his historical impact on the fortunes of both codes in the period 1906-13, he is lauded as one of the all-time great three-quarters in both codes.
Gould v Latham? Nothing in it, Very tight. You could be right, only God really knows. Having seen both players first-hand, I give Gould the nod by a whisker.
Harry said | February 16th 2009 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Agreel Sheek re Gould v Latham. Gould was absolutely outstanding in 2 truly great Wallaby teams – the Bledisloe winning 1980 (remember those clearing kicks to over halfway from his own goal line) and the grand slam winning side of 1984, as well as many fantastic and match-shaping performances for Queensland for a decade. And as great as Latham was, he had the vast misfortune of playing for a Qld side at its lowest point in over 30 years, and never actually achieving great success for the Reds.
sheek said | February 16th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Jonathon,
If I could add a bit more on Gould v Latham. For a big man, Gould lacked nothing that Latham had. He had a mighty punt, his kicks travelling in a massive parabola – as high & as far in distance. For field & tactical kicking, he was better than Latham.
Both were average goalkickers, sometimes very good, sometimes very ordinary. Latham had the edge in broken field running, with his campo like zig-zag. Although when fully wound up Gould was often devastating. I think he had the edge in the counter-attack, where his size (Gould, that is) made him a difficult proposition to stop.
Finally, for the clincher, Gould was the more consistent defender. His only weakness being head-on-head flat-footed defence where he could be stepped around. Latham was very inconsistent in the tackling department.
Both were unfortunately injury-prone, especially Gould, who suffered nerve problems in his massive hammies.
sheek said | February 16th 2009 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
JohnB/Harry,
On reflection, Foley should be ranked ahead of McBain. But very little between all 4 hookers previously mentioned. Moore has improved enormously in recent years, he’s certainly in the frame.
sam a said | February 16th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Poidevin over Elsom is a huge stretch for mine…
Robbie said | February 16th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Gents……Backrow from heaven…..Willie O, Poido and Tim Gavin….would have been the RWC backrow if Gav had not nuked his knee
Bay35Pablo said | February 16th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Good effort Sheek. Bit of effort and thought has gone into that, even if people disagree. Gets people talking which is always a good thing. A cheer for you.
Can’t really help with the Queensland team discussions. The amateur v pro era argument has a lot to it, but let’s work with the concept.
Now – Notable omissions for NSW. MARY ROEBUCK? OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU NOT MENTION HIM!!!!
Marty Roebuck was until Burke came along, IMHO the pre-eminent full back for NSW. Any all time line up for the state that didn’t at least consider him has a problem. I can understand not including him in the 1st XV, and even on the bench, but not even notable ommissions? I see your point about “influence” in a later post, but even if you won’t give him that what about the influence he had to have on Burke? Burke became the best surely because he was gathering pearls of wisdom at both Eastwood and NSW from the great Marty himself. Plus 23 tests for a bloke playing in the amateur era is no mean feat, when some “legends” played single figures.
Recount!!
PS David Vickerman. Any relation to Daniel?
sheek said | February 16th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Bay35Pablo,
Yeah, was working from memory, & there’s always one/two who escapes memory. Write Marty Roebuck down as one. However, Matty Burke still gets the gig for NSW. Very fine & underrated player, was Roebuck. Probably because he did everything efficiently, without fuss, & few mistakes.
And yes, it is Dan Vickerman – just seeing if everyone read the post right through!!!!!
Thurston said | February 17th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
SHEEK & PABLO – Nobody mentioned Marty the other day in association with Newcastle rugby, but if memory serves, I think he led a team up there after he retired from the Int. scene. Was it the Wildfires? Marty had one attribute that many fullbacks would pay a hundred bucks for today – he could hit the line at pace and with great timing.
Tough to choose between Roger and Latho. Both excellent punters. Bill McLaren would famously describe’s Gould’s up-and-unders as coming down with snow of them. As for line kicking, Roger played before the drop punt phase. He used the good old fashioned torpedo – great distance and you can count on a forward roll. He also used the straight-on place kick that was in favour before soccer style came in. He’d dig a mound, slant the ball, step back several paces, rush in and give it an almighty thump – a howitzer that could split the posts from 55 yards out, zoom over the upright by a scant 5 feet, and keep on going into the end seats.
I think you’re on to something there Sheek – an international Who Would You Choose naming two or three great players up for the same position, one of whom has to be discarded.
I’ll give you three for a start.
Campo, Jonah and Ron Jarden. That one, in my book, is an impossible exercise.
sheek said | February 17th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Thurston,
Yes, Roebuck was a foundation player for the Newcastle Wildfires in 1995, I think it was.
Never saw Jarden play, though of course I’ve read wonderful things about him. We have to trust the judgement of those who went before us. Also why we should try ourselves to be as honest as possible in our own assessment of the players we see in our own lifetime.
Usually when deciding between 2 or more players of exceptional quality, there’s very little in it. Often it comes down to perception.