By Adrian Musolino
April 7th 2009 @ 9:42am
Related coverage
The dilemma of being the Sydney Swans
Cameron Stokes of Hawthorn kicks for goal chased by Paul Bevan (front) and Jarred MvVeigh (rear) of Sydney during the AFL Round 02 match between the Sydney Swans and the Hawthorn Hawks at ANZ Stadium. Slattery Images
How many would show up? That was the critical question as Hawthorn headed north for their first visit to ANZ Stadium and the Sydney Swans faced the same old questions about their ability, their supporter base, and their standing in Sydney’s fickle market.
Fickle is the best way to describe the Sydney sporting market: like a roller coaster, the peaks and troughs of crowd support are extreme.
With a long history of trying to cement their position in the home of rugby, the Sydney Swans now must re-assure fans that their best days aren’t behind them, that the days of consecutive Grand Final appearances and flags are still realistic goals.
With the dip in form following their premiership success, Swans membership numbers this season are down by around 6,000 on last year’s figure and the club reported a $800,000 loss for 2008.
The ravens that hover over the Swans use such statistics to point to the inability of the club to cement themselves in the heart of Sydney, especially in light of the ongoing discussions over the sustainability of a second Sydney team based out in the city’s expansive western suburbs.
But the Swans have made significant head way since the fledgling and dark times of financial struggle and on-field capitulations of the late eighties and early nineties.
33,116 turned up to ANZ Stadium Saturday night, a very healthy crowd.
The crowd was rewarded with a brilliant performance from the home team, who nullified the Hawks threat, albeit a Hawks team missing several of its key premiership players.
In typical Sydney fashion, it was the veterans, Adam Goodes, Barry Hall and Brett Kirk who led from the front. Whether these aging players can keep that form going for the remainder of the season remains to be seen.
But what of the time when players like these are forced into retirement? Success is critical for the Swans, perhaps more so than other clubs.
The Swans can’t afford laborious and lengthy rebuilding phases. The fans would simply turn away in droves. Look at Sydney FC crowd figures last season as a point of reference.
Hence the over-reliance on established stars traded in from other teams throughout the Swans recent history: think Barry Hall, Tony Lockett, Dermott Brereton and Paul Roos.
In the build up to the match against Hawthorn, Paul Roos cleverly played up the ability of Buddy Franklin, achieving two goals: deflecting the attention away from his own team and their round one capitulation, and putting the pressure squarely on his opponents, while also stressing to the Sydney public to get out and see one of the games’ champions.
He knew the media’s focus would be on the crowd the Swans could generate at ANZ Stadium and he played it brilliantly. It was PR spin worthy of a politician.
Roos is the best person to lead the Swans. He understands the Sydney market and its unique features.
The Swans streak of six straight seasons of finals football was widely tipped to come to an end this season with its ageing squad. After the performance against the Hawks, a seventh consecutive finals appearance isn’t beyond reach.
This is a necessity, such is the dilemma of the Swans.
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(61)
megatron said | April 7th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Still can’t see them making the 8. There are too many other good teams and I don’t see the veterans playing like that week in and out.
Tom said | April 7th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Heatlhy crowd, but if thats the best they can get at Homebush why would they ever leave the SCG?
Lazza said | April 7th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
“The Swans can’t afford laborious and lengthy rebuilding phases”
That’s the way the AFL works? A period of success means you are denied the best talent through the draft system and inevitably you fall down the table. That’s why I can’t see 4 AFL clubs being a success in the Rugby League states, especially in an 18 team competition.
They are going to have long periods with no success and probably very little interest.
Michael C said | April 7th 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Tom – you asked if thats the best they can get at Homebush why would they ever leave the SCG?
last year, they drew about 34.9K for Essendon, 44K for West Coast and as good as 60K for Collingwood and finished with a 4th game at the venue for the first time in a H&A season with 44.9K vs Geelong.
On that basis – - you can see why they’ve bothered. In 2007, the 3 matches there averaged over 60K (but, that WAS one out of the box and included abnormals like the field of pink cancer awareness promotion in the Syd vs StKilda match that drew over 60K that otherwise probably wouldn’t have.).
Over the last couple of years with new construction at the SCG and reduced capacity, again, there was a good reason to play at Homebush. Since 2001, they’ve played at least 3 games H&A games a year at the venue
figures as below
Year Total Matches Avg
2009 36,116 1 36,116
2008 183,360 4 45,840
2007 190,177 3 63,392
2006 134,998 3 44,999
2005 119,567 3 39,856
2004 129,658 3 43,219
2003 149,113 3 49,704
2002 128,919 3 42,973
so, some pretty good numbers out there. The Swans generally sell a good few thousand 3 or 4 game passes for the Homebush matches. Last I saw about 2 weeks ago was total membership around 24K plus about 7K Homebush passes – so, they were hoping for around 30K there abouts, and got it. The great benefit obviously is that those 7K or however many Homebush passes would be people NOT engaged in all likelihood if the Swans only played at the SCG. You can see though why the AFL would love a 2nd team up there with more regular matches out of Homebush or wherever (Blacktown boutique stadium??) and allow the Swans to be playing more regularly at the SCG. Certainly 30-40K at the SCG is impressive but at Homebush is only half full.
Michael C said | April 7th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Lazza -
the allure of a 2 team city/state is you hope at least for x-town rivalry. i.e. if you can’t win the whole lot, then, at least for the Dockers, in Perth, try and beat the Eagles as an example.
The speed of rebuilding can be very quick, Carlton were the exception because they had salary cap penalties that excluded them in part from early parts of drafts and the penalty was an extended period at the bottom of the table.
The Swans so far have had an advantage of being a good ‘re-birthing’ centre. i.e. just like how NRL players can thrive in the annonymity of MElbourne, so too, AFL players up in Sydney. Therefore being a good player recycling option.
The question is whether 2 years is too long a rebuilding period? 1 year? 4 years? The job of the AFL is to ensure that teams that DO bottom out, aren’t too greatly impacted by dropping off of financials. Because, for all clubs – success breeds success, no matter the club or the code – - it’s just each club may operate on a different scale.
megatron said | April 7th 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Lazza that’s why they rely on trades and hang onto veterans.
Worlds Biggest said | April 7th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
I don’t know if the AFL & Swans would have been happy with the crowd, the Premiers in Town playing a blockbuster against the Swans. What hasn’t helped the Swans is increasing the season ticket price for 2009, there numbers are down by around 20% as a result. This was all set in place before the GFC but surely there should have been some flexibility re this. The family pass is very well priced but they still only got 33,000. Regarding the proposed 2nd team in Sydney, who is going to support this team, I can’t see them getting core support from the West.
Papa Romeo said | April 7th 2009 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
33,116 would have looked – and sounded – great at the SCG.
jimbo said | April 7th 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
33K would have been healthy for the Rabbitohs or Sydney FC.
The Swans crowd was 40% less than their opening game at Stadium Australia last year.
The 2009 AFL Annual Report said AFL was growing by 30% in NSW and Western Sydney was crying out for a second AFL team.
Lets wait and see.
Michael C said | April 7th 2009 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Worlds Biggest -
that’s interesting re the membership prices, as, the AFL has frozen ticket prices for this year.
Millster said | April 7th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Not so related to anything but it was cool to see Adam Goodes and others enjoying the recent Socceroos game against the Uzbeks, having a beer and chatting with some fans coming up to them all the while decked out in the green and gold.
Kurt said | April 7th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
I’m not so sure about the conventional wisdom that says the Swans can’t afford a rebuilding phase where they ‘bottom out’. I’m not a Sydney local but I did live there for a couple of years back in the 90s and from my experience for something to be successful there it needs to be seen as fresh, new and exciting. We Melburnians like our culture with a bit of grime and history attached, but in Sydney seems to be much more faddish – and I don’t necessarily say that as a put down. So in 93 the Swans were playing in front of crowds so low when I used to call the SCG and ask what time the game was due to start they would ask ‘well what time can you get here?’ (haha yes an old one I know but appropriate for the Swans of those years). Then in 96 with Plugger in form they were packing out the SCG most weeks. Then of course with their premiership side of the mid noughties they were attracting great crowds again, but now with the same old faces (as good as Kirk, Hall and co have been) and the same old defensive game plan they are very much yesterday’s story. Meanwhile the Waratahs seem to have gone through a similar period of being fashionable and come out the other side, Sydney FC had their year in the sun (although I know it is tough to judge a 3 year old club) and the socceroos are now the cool ticket in town.
So perhaps for the Swans to become really popular again, they actually need to spend some time out of the limelight, rebuild a young team with some fresh faces and burst onto the scene once more. Perhaps this is too simplistic a view, but I would be interested in what other current Sydney residents might think.
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
If you look at the 19,000 crowd for the Swans final last year, the 33,000 is a 70% increase over Christmas, New Year, Valentines Day and Pancake Tuesday – what a turn around
Swans have a niche and will do pretty well at the SCG with the redevelopment over and sooon good games, particularly the mighty Bombers. Crowds of between 25,000 and 30,000 on a regular basis are very acceptable.
They do need to rebuild though or else they’ll have a Carlton like experience at the bottom of the well sucking dirt for a few years.
Redb
Bryan Ferrie said | April 7th 2009 @ 5:47pm | Report comment
Everyone who is interested in AFL in Sydney went to the Swans game. Problem is that left no tv audience and that is what pays for sport in the 21st century not bums on seats.
megatron said | April 7th 2009 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
Were the TV ratings bad?
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
about 100,000 – which is average for the Swans. Hardly no-one, but nothing special. Swans a have a good niche in the market, better than most expansion teams from other codes.
Redb
Woody Warambel said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:12pm | Report comment
Sydney TV Rating for Saturday night:
Sydney comparisons between 7:30pm-10:30pm
Ten
Saturday Night AFL 97,000
Average 97,000
ABC1
New Tricks Rpt 309,000
ABC News Up-Date 161,000
The Bill ABC1 242,000
Silent Witness Rpt 109,000
Average 205,250
Seven
Kath & Kim 243,000
The Vicar Of Dibley 258,000
M-Flightplan Seven 214,000
Average 238,333
Nine
Just Friends 213,000
Prime -Rpt 166,000
Average 189,500
SBS
Mythbusters 102,000
Iron Chef, The 125,000
Rockwiz Rpt SBS 75,000
Average 100,666
http://www.mediaspy.org/forum/index.php?s=6309964a509f8d00f2d969077286ebe1&showtopic=17036
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
Melb Storm TV ratings in Melbourne ….. zero. crowd? not even 12,000.
Redb
Sam said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
Red B
I am wondering which sport you despise more: rugby league or football?
Waterboy said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
Here is a story for you guys trumpeting the Swans crowd and their popularity in Sydney.
A friends brother had his mate tape some AFL show on Foxtel. He watched it 24 hrs later and during the show they said they were giving away 100 Swans tickets to the Hawthorn game. He thought “damn I wish I knew yesterday when the show was on” but decided to ring up anyway.
Answer from Foxtel, “plenty left, we’ll send them straight out to you”.
Struggling to get rid of the freebies…
Dave said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
l guess the point should be made that the Swans have been in Sydenee for 25 years won a flag as recently as 3 seasons ago, have consistently finished in the top 8 and were into the 2nd round of finals last year…it was their first home game of the season v the Premiers of 2008 with the highest profile player in the AFL promoting the game and playing…Ch 10 no doubt flogging the game to death on FTA!
Therefore to get beaten by all other channels prime time Sat night with the Swans live(delayed?) into Sydenee the AFL must be disappointed. How long will Ch 10 continue to put up wth being hammered in Sydenee ratings?
In terms of Storm it will be interesting to see if they can improve attendances significantly by moving into a new stadium?
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
Sam,
Just giving some valid comparisons, can’t help it that if you missed the point.
Waterboy,
Freebies are available in all sports, don’t kidd yourself.
24,000 PAID UP Sydney members, 7,000 PAID four game passes – are not freebies, but keep trying…
Redb
Sam said | April 7th 2009 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
Red B
I already know that rugby league is not popular in Melbourne if that was your point. As for AFL in Sydney, well it seems like it’s fun to go to the game for a lot of people, but not to watch on TV..
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
Sam
The best week to week TV ratings in Sydney for rugby league are around 400,000, sometimes only 300,000 for Sydney based teams, if the AFL is able to get 25% of that then its’ Ok by me.
They only people who talk up Sydney domination, invasion,etc by the AFL are AFL hating fans of other codes. Maybe Sydney does need a second team to create a derby type of rivalry in the longer term to build that following.
I have also written an article on the Roar despising the poor TV coverage of AFL by the current TV networks, they do a shit job of showing the game at its best, too far from the action and yawning gap between rugby league and AFL in terms of quality live TV coverage. When epople don’t understand the game very well, TV has to a better than average job of presenting the game’s appeal, it does not at this stage.
Redb
westy said | April 7th 2009 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
Redb do not be to defensive and it is important to be balanced. The Swans crowd was quite reasonable. As you may be aware the Ticatek’s or the ANZ Stadium’s habit of not releasing the low priced tickets until the Fridaydid not encourage the crowd. Secondly give poor old Storm a break .Channel 9 treats them appallingly. Actually the Swans would do better on 7 or 9 Channel 10 is still not very good.
The Swans will fill the SCG. It connects best with their support base.
The Swans have achieved a nice niche market. I say this not in spite. Do not react for I know this is not the AFL way but the AFL in Sydney cuts a distinct path across the middle class white boy market and the Eastern Suburbs. This is their stamping ground. This is the Sydney Swans. Anglo parents who child is not of a football culture or who fears the perceived contact of rugby union or rugby league or the contact with larger islander boys or tough lebanese kids play AFL in Sydney’s noth west.and eastern suburbs. The demographic for kids in the east is not great.
You and I know AFL is as tough as any of these especially with players being able to come from all directions. But this was not the market segment you have largely ended up with. ” The people are nicer …its gentler…..the big boys do not play ….all said in a positive context. This is not the market massage you send out west where I am but it is aconsequence of Swans marketing.It has been successful. Too successful. AFL is perceived by some to be soft. This a reflection largely of those who play.
I assisted a primary school in the Paul Kelly Cup who won their district/regional /and state final. We beat some school from Wagga. The entire team was made up of rugby league and football players only one boy playing AFL in the squad.They enjoyed the experience meeting the Swans . One plays elite AFL ( his father is Victorian) the others rugby union , rugby league and football. This is to be expected and is as yet the reality.
This does not mean that the Swans will not pickup reasonable athletes at some private schools but this reflects this typical market segment.
The AFL is trying to breakout of this market segment and this is the next phase. Bluntly AFL does not yet pickup the elite youth athlete in Sydney. This is not to say it will not. You see Kieran Jack is a reasonable athlete but remember the most powerful motive for him pursuing AFL was his inability to make representative sides in rugby league. He made the right choice he would not have made it in rugby league or rugby union. Do not bite . I can name many Swans players who would make league or union he is not one of them yet because of his father he is trotted out as a success. I watched Kieran as a league junior and the answer was definitely no.
You are as aware as i am of the talent Victoria produces there is as much in NSW it is just as yet this elite do not play AFL and at present Swans marketing has hit a market not renowned for its production of sporting talent. There best play rugby union and football .
Unconcious as it obviously is AFL does not market itself to everyone in Sydney.This is their next task. they need to change Sydney Swans message which has worked for them but will not work for the game.
Tazziejosh said | April 7th 2009 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
Even if it the 2nd team doesn’t work at least they’ve (the AFL) have had a go! We don’t want to look back in 15 years time and see the AFL heading down the track of the NBL because they didn’t try and expand – you can bet your bottom $ that all the other competitions (A League) will continue to expand and if the AFL sits on its hands it will be doomed.
Redb said | April 7th 2009 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
Westy,
Thanks for the info/comments.
Maybe a western Sydney team made up of a core locals could provide a perfect rivalry to the ’softies’ from the east. As I’ve said a few times now the timeline for WS in the AFL is too early to build the clubs, comps and general infrastructure (unlike as seen and built on the Gold Coast).
I don’t rate Kieran Jack either, in short he lacks heart, does not put his head over the ball and has too many easy possessions in his total stats, he is a ‘receiver’ to be kind. His tackling is obviously Ok althought he does infringe quite a bit, but tackling a player does not require courage when cahsing a player down as opposed to running full tilt eyes on the ball with another player coming directly at you. if you watch Jack he rarely gets into those situations. His pressure is too loose.
A few hard and tough western Sydneysiders could shirt front him in the opening game of a debry in 2012 – to set the place alight, it might upset the chardonnay sippers, too bad.
Redb
jimbo said | April 7th 2009 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
2009 Sydney Saturday Night TV Ratings War:
Iron Chef 2 – Swans 0.
Michael C said | April 8th 2009 @ 6:14am | Report comment
Westy -
excellent post – - – must be encouraged!!
re Jack, at one point I might have disagreed, but, sadly, it does look like he’s being trotted out a bit – - on both sides though, as, obviously there’ve been some uses of his old man in DT articles in the past to attempt to portray a ‘code wars’ which was nothing to do with an AFL based propaganda.
One element of a 2nd S-E Qld side and a 2nd greater Sydney team is that the opportunities for Auskickers to grace the big fields on match day increase 100% (well, okay, no doubt 2 derbies scheduled in each market, so, increases 80 odd %).
(in all codes, these opportunities can be more critical than future possibilities of fame and wealth with respect to getting and keeping kids engaged)
Redb said | April 8th 2009 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Sydney football crowds, 2009 to date.
57,292 Socceroos
33,116 Sydney Swans
32,469 NSW Waratahs
24,486 Sydney Roosters
Stacks up OK.
Redb
Crosscoder said | April 8th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
RedB
Socceroos -WC qualifier a no brainer
Sydney Swans- 1 game fortnightly ,they have had in the past bigger crowds than that at ANZ stadium.Let us not forget the 19,000 semi crowd against hawthorn.
NSW Waratahs-representing the state of NSW (6 million)
Sydney Roosters please one club in Sydney.
The Swans have been in Sydney for 27 years,with all the publicity and FTA television and being the darlings of more than the odd media channel or paper ,should get 33,000.
I won’t bring up the TV ratings for FTA for the nRL which have at least maintained and bettered 2008 figures.Nor will i bring up the ordinary Tv ratings for the Swans despite them getting live games.Similar Tv ratings in Brisbane ,and the AFL stating they will get this huge $1b Tv contract.
The Storm one of your favourite punching bags.
Interesting In Melbourne not exactly a rl friendly state in the past,still get 12,000 plus in an eyesore stadium,when the Vic media claimed they would be lucky to crack 3,000.Their coverage by ch9 in melbourne by the NRL station is appalling timewise.Been there 9 years as opposed to the Swans 27 in Sydney.Give them time in a decent stadium and then go on the attack if that is needed.
Interesting that grand finals have shown more people watching the NRL G/F in Vic on TV,than NSW people watching the AFL G/F.
Those who keep banging on about Keiran Jack playing AFL ignoring the fact his brothers play rl,might i suggest you read the story about a young 16 yr old from Vic called Cameron Hansen.
He has only played rl for 2 years,,before that he was picking up swags of best and fairest playing junior aussie Rules for the Moorabbin saints,and was chosen as part of the 2007 All australian Schoolboys team,and was picked again last year.
He has chosen RL for his career with the “maligned” Storm.playing for the Storm’s under 18 side with the majority of players local,and more than 8 are locals in the under 20 side.He commented that he liked the physicality of rl and he claimed it is more mentally tough than other sports.His views not mine.
Michael C said | April 8th 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Xcoder -
remember, that the AFL GF is on BEFORE the NRL GF. If the NRL GF were on before the AFL GF, the AFL state viewership WOULD be much less.
For pretty obvious reasons of pre-occupation with the ‘local’ build up etc.
For the NRL GF falling at various times the day after the AFL GF – well, the big thing that hit’s an AFL fan at 5.45pm on the last Saturday in September is………..heck, when’s the first NAB cup game next year???
so, we look for anything, including the SANFL GF on ABC sometimes, and the NRL GF……..and then bring on Bathurst and the Spring Carnival.
Not bagging the NRL GF – but, reality is, if it fell on the day before or the week before, you’d probably get a very different result.
But, of course, we don’t hold the same anti NSW hatred that Sydney folk hold towards the Mexicans (heck, we can’t even be bothered given NSW folk a nickname!!!)
Crosscoder said | April 8th 2009 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
MichaelC.
You have lost me.You have a build up to the AFL G/F,once it is over as is the case with the NRL G/F people tend to want to switch off,sober up,whatever.
My point clearly is to establish that in Melbourne there is an audience,some rl followers,the majority casually looking at the NRL G/F event.This would not have occurred, not that many years ago.
Re your last para,try telling that to J Kennett.
You can call us bluebloods if you wish.
Dave said | April 8th 2009 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
MC
BS they call us Mehicans we call them ‘gringos’ !
Redb said | April 9th 2009 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
For every argument Sydney based RL fans throw at the Swans it can come right back at you re the Storm in Melbourne, the Storm aren’t so much a punching bag but a boomerang right back at ya.
Redb
Michael C said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:20am | Report comment
xcoder -
nah, remember, all year we’ve had Friday night footy, saturday night, sunday arvo etc etc. The finals series gives us 4 matches for the first 2 weeks. Come the prelim final we lose Sunday. Come the GF weekend we lose the Friday night. But the Sunday arvo, we’re at a loss.
Remember, AFL GF on a Saturday arvo vs NRL GF on a SUnday evening. Big difference.
Granted, Sydney centricity of a Sunday evening GF when only NSW has the next day as a public holiday………gawd!, that always get’s me.
anyway, in your mind, come the Sunday, can you understand that a few Victorians on the wind down will watch just about anything that resembles footy. (okay, line would probably be drawn at ARC!!!)
Brian Ferrie said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Origin is on Wednesday nights & everyone manages to front up to school and work the next day. Just because Melbourne is stuck in a Saturday afternoon GF time warp doesn’t mean the NRL has it wrong with Sundays for its GF. I don’t know anyone that watches another code of footy as a “wind down” other than watching AFL to fall asleep. Victorians watch NRL or the Wallabies or Socceroos because they enjoy it. Aren’t shops and restaurants and casinos or a good book open in Melbourne on Sundays? You’re saying that Victorians watch the NRL grand final because they can’t find anything else to do on that Sunday night.
Redb said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
BF,
My read of what MC is saying is Sunday evening is a tradtional TV time, Saturday afternoon is not. It is a more friendly TV ratings time, nothing more nothing less. The NRL and its TV carrier were very keen to take advantage of the 7pm timeslot due to its prime time proximity. I understand due to fan pressure from the NRL fans who do actually prefer afternoon BBQ time it was brought back to 5pm as a compromise, the fans wanted it at 3pm.
Stuck in a Saurday afternoon ‘timewarp’ – you bet, wouldn’t want it any other way.
Redb
Brian Ferrie said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Sydney by the first week of October is in summer mode. Older fans might want afternoon starts but that was based on traditional GFs being played in mid September and not the first weekend in October. I think I read over 85% of NRL games are at night and all the finals series is as well so why should the GF be in the heat of mid Spring Sydney arvo? Those wanting a Brisbane NRL GF will find there is no way it will be a day GF even if it is a work day in Queensland on the Monday.
Michael C said | April 9th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
BF -
bugger a Brisbane GF – the great thing about NRL and AFL that we know where and when the GF will be and how many people can get in.
The Saturday arvo timeslot as a timewarp…ah, you somehow convey a condescending tone.
Reality is that the Sat arvo timeslot is 8 year old friendly. Especially for Aust Footy, as the extra length of the game makes a later start more of an issue than for NRL.
Funny thing is some people on theRoar have even attacked the auskick kids getting to present the medallions, when, for us, we look at that and think how cool it is for those kids, and that it’s 5.45 pm and note 10.15pm so they can be involved.
Reality, yes, AFL could probably boost ratings by going to the evening or even twilight time slot, and pre-game entertainment looks so so so much better in ‘dark light’. (e.g. light show, fireworks, suspended objects on wires, …..like….little girls…….a tram……..or a duck etc)
Woody Warambel said | April 9th 2009 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
Redb
I just read one of your posts on here where you said the Storms’ TV ratings in Melbourne were zero for last Saturday night. It is true that there was no coverage on the FTA networks but the Storm v Titans’ game rated 275,000 Australia-wide on Pay TV. So I might suggest that some of that audience may have been from Victoria:
http://www.astra.org.au/content/pdf/MediaReleases/ASTRA-Ratings-for-Week-090329.pdf
Top 50 Subscription TV Program Broadcasts
National STV Program List: All People – w/c 29 Mar 2009 Weekly
1 LIVE: FOOTBALL: WORLD CUP QUALIFIER AUST. V UZBEKISTAN Fox Sports 1 Wed 20:00 431 431 1,343 883
2 LIVE: NRL STORM V TITANS Fox Sports 2 Sat 19:30 275 275 1,541 644
3 LIVE: NRL PANTHERS V WEST TIGERS Fox Sports 2 Sat 17:30 245 245 1,218 533
4 LIVE: AFL FREMANTLE V WESTERN BULLDOGS Fox Sports 1 Sun 19:01 240 240 1,335 736
5 LIVE: AFL GEELONG V RICHMOND Fox Sports 1 Sat 14:00 223 223 1,208 594
6 LIVE: NRL SEA EAGLES V PANTHERS Fox Sports 2 Mon 19:00 220 220 1,160 568
7 LIVE: NRL RABBITOHS V KNIGHTS Fox Sports 2 Sun 14:00 214 214 1,167 497
8 LIVE: AFL CARLTON V BRIS LIONS Fox Sports 1 Sat 19:00 204 204 1,488 658
9 LIVE: FOOTBALL: WORLD CUP QUALIFIER Fox Sports 1 Wed 22:00 166 166 1,101 650
10 LIVE: AFL MELBOURNE V NORTH MELBOURNE Fox Sports 1 Sun 13:01 160 160 1,140 495
11 FAMILY GUY FOX8 Mon 18:45 150 186 991 1,244
12 NCIS TV1 Sun 20:30 131 146 1,479 591
13 THE SIMPSONS FOX8 Thu 19:07 129 186 1,007 1,835
14 LAW & ORDER: SVU TV1 Sat 22:15 108 132 1,237 888
15 LIVE: NRL SATURDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sat 16:55 103 103 1,210 208
16 FUTURAMA FOX8 Mon 18:20 102 144 915 1,066
17 LIVE: AFL: ON THE COUCH Fox Sports 1 Mon 20:30 101 101 1,159 209
18 RAMBO Showtime Sun 20:30 100 149 1,424 602
19 LIVE: RUGBY UNION: S14 WARATAHS V STORM Fox Sports 3 Sat 19:30 95 95 1,538 329
20 LIVE: NRL SUNDAY PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 2 Sun 13:25 91 91 1,116 141
21 LIVE: AFL PRE GAME SHOW Fox Sports 1 Sun 18:30 90 90 1,009 426
22 GRAND DESIGNS Lifestyle Thu 20:34 88 116 1,265 442
Woody Warambel said | April 9th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
The reason why they won’t have a Saturday night GF is that they would most of the time have competition from the NRL Preliminary Final which is also played at that time.
If that occurs then the AFL GF TV Ratings would be decimated in both NSW & Queensland.
Peter said | April 14th 2009 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Update.
2009 Sydney Saturday Night TV Ratings War:
Iron Chef 3 – Swans 0.
Not only did the swannies game come LAST on TV between 7-10pm on Saturday night but an 25 year old movie[Trading Places] got more viewers on C10 till midnight than the swannies got earlier in the evening. OUCH!
Bring on the western sydney white elephants :lol
Redb said | April 14th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Woody,
I hope you note that 4 out of the top 10 programs were AFL games.
Yes for 100 odd years the reason the AFL plays its Grand Final on a Saturday afternoon is due to the potential clash with the rugby league prelim final in Sydney.
The Storm is not even played on FTA in Melbourne, certainly not up against the AFL where it would get smashed. That the Swans get any FTA coverage at all in Sydney shows the gap between the respective camps.
Peter, the Storm get beaten by the test pattern in Melbourne.
Redb
Peter said | April 15th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
” the Storm get beaten by the test pattern in Melbourne”
Check the Melbourne TV ratings for their one and only prime time FTA R2 game against the Broncos = 200,000
It came 4th on the ratings that afl free night.
BUT
-thats 100,00 MORE than watch the swannies.
-The Swannies game rated last on FTA TV with NO FTA NRL/RUGBY opposition, (got THUMPED BY SBS)
- the swannies get 10 to 1 MORE publicity in the Syd media [RADIO/TV/PRINT] than the Storm do in the Melb Media.
So rebstar if the Storm get “beaten by the test pattern in Melbourne.” what do the swannies and Victorian handball in general get beaten by…besides everything including the kitchen sick.
Redb said | April 15th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Peter,
The point is the Swans are at least televised on FTA in Sydney on a regular basis and there is competition, you cutely leave out Foxtel, I bet there was a rugby league and rugby union game on in competition on Saturday night.
It’s not entirely relevant anyway the AFL has a niche in Sydney and gets good crowds.
Melbournians will watch sport on TV if nothing else is on. 200,000 for one game, with no AFL competition on FTA or Foxtel. Big deal.
The Storm’s crowd was 10,000 last round, yep just 10,000 – pathetic.
For every comment you throw up about the Swans in Sydney can be thrown back at you twofold re the Storm in Melbourne. Imagine only getting 10,000 to a supposed national game in a city of almost 4 million!
Redb
Michael B said | April 15th 2009 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Redb,
Storm have been around for 10 years, Swans close to 30 years. Swans have had more than enough time to establish & build support.. Lets not forget the Super League war which turned many fans off League and are now following AFL. Storm play out of a run down stadium, Swans play out of world class stadiums. Swans and AFL is general is shoved down our throats. I doubt Storm have anything near the promotion that the swans get. You’re comparing apples and oranges..
Lets not forget the Sydney Swans averaged under 10K crowds when they had been around for 10 years… now thats pathetic.. you refer to one game, this was the entire 93 season!
The only reason that Swans are shown on FTA is Syd is due to AFL pushing for it. If it weren’t for this, the networks would definatley not show them until mid-night. They lose the ratings in the those timeslots everytime!
Not sure if you noticed, but the storm game vs titans rated 2nd highest on PayTV a few weeks ago (only behind Socceroos game, which is fair enough)… guess what, the game was in Melb as well. Maybe there is a TV market for them down south – Wake up channel Nine!
Redb said | April 15th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
Michael B,
How is AFL shoved down your throat exactly? is that reality or just how Sydneysiders perceive it because they are so biased against anything Victorian and paranoid about ‘invasion’.
Rugby league does not face anywhere near the same animosity towards it in Melbourne that the AFL faces in Sydney. That is why a random game of Melb Storm shown in prime time will get 200,000 Melbournians watching becuase it’s sport and there was no other sport on.
The fact is the 200,000 who might watch on TV don’t translate to real support – those who go to the game, the opposite is true in Sydney for the Swans or at least the gap is much wider.
That said, Ch 9 do a far superior job of bringing the NRL to life on TV compared to the poor job done by Ch 7 and 10 for the AFL. This is one of the main problems for the AFL in Sydney and Brisbane. RL is much easier to cover as it is played on a smaller ground and you can get cameras close to the action. AFL remains much better live at the ground than on TV.
The Foxtel audience would have comprised fans from Sydney watching as well, plus a QLD component. Hoping it was a huge Melbourne audience is just wishful thinking, Pay TV penetration in Melbourne is much lower than Sydney.
Going back to 1993 when the Swans almost went under is a joke. If you want to play with numbers…..
Swans average 100,000 on TV, get 25-30,000 to games – a conversion of 25-30%.
Storm got 200,000 on TV, followed up by 10-12,000 to a game – a conversion of 5-6%.
You can do anything with numbers, stop being so paranoid about the AFL in Sydney, if there is no threat why all the posts about the Iron Chef
.
Redb
Michael C said | April 15th 2009 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Michael B -
10 years in, the Swans were at their lowest ebb, on and off the field, and 10K was a good crowd.
10 years in, Melb Storm are the glamour team, 2 flags under their belt, and SoO reps, Australian Reps and 12K is about the best they can do.
(and that’s without negative publicity, and WITH News Ltd dividend being pumped back in via the private ownership arrangement to keep them afloat – - – oh, it may all change with the new govt gifted rectangle stadium – - and perhaps Sydney will be truely made to look the pathetic sporting joke that it is – when it’s NRL heartland is compared to Broncos, Titans, Cowboys and Storm).
PEter – Storm gets good coverage (well, only positive, NOTHING negative) in their owners own newspaper (the Herald Sun). The Age on the other hand, being a soccer newspaper, gives MVFC a better run. It’s odd having both these papers showing their vested interest hands in backing either of Storm or Victory, and because they’re in Melbourne – - they MUST cover the AFL (but, don’t hold back on the negative slant whenever possible, and I think has got worse since radio SEN gave us 24 hour talk sports radio – - i.e. the newspapers need to be even MORE controversial to generate the interest and to attempt to set the talkback agenda – - – it’s oh so messy. At any rate, in Melb, Victory and Storm both benefit from radio SEN, with regular time slots, and regular interviews etc – - – is there a Sydney equivalent??).
Michael C said | April 15th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Woody -
re the Foxtel ratings -
a couple of points need to be made.
A. Sydney/NSW is the most mature by BOTH real and relative terms pay tv market – - so, the NRL has a natural ‘bias’ with the present pay TV market.
B. the AFL matches on PAY TV are rarely shown at the same time around the country. Invariably, what is on foxtel in Perth or Adelaide might be different to what is on Foxtel in Sydney or QLD. Whereas, the NRL Foxtel coverage is very much more uniform.
C. the AFL mix includes a state by state variation in the FTA mix as well. It’s all too complex to try to pluck single figures too often. Often though, the Swans and Lions are on FTA effectively against themselves on Pay. (market saturation!!).
Peter -
note that when the Swans draw 30-40K in Sydney, invariably, it’s the biggest crowd in town.
Last weekend, we sat back and watch Carlton and Essendon on short delay, in front of 70K, a cracker game………and now and then we heard the fireworks from across the road at Olympic park…….where they had 10,000.
Perhaps there’s an image issue. The Storm are over hyped. Dancing girls, fire works, and the like – - that ain’t Melbourne. And certainly not when 12 years in, they still haven’t figured that the best way to go about it is business like, get on with the job and earn real respect and give up on the ‘floor show’.
(btw – I know this now about Melbourne – - heck, I used to love the reserves before the senior game, and thought the lack of that might reduce the entertainment value proposition and reduce crowds etc———–nah!, people are happy to get there an hour early just to eat their packed lunch, read the paper and stare at the grass…………..you could just as easily be at the test cricket!!!
)
Woody Warambel said | April 15th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
That 203,000 ratings achieved by Melbourne Storm on FTA this year meant that the Australia-wide audience for that game exceeded 1.25 million. This made it the third most watched game of football in any code this year. (BTW Broncos v St George game was first & the opening AFL game Richnond v Carlton was second.)
When is the last time a Brisbane Lions’ or Swans’ game achieved those numbers?
Michael B said | April 15th 2009 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Redb
I’ve seen the AFL ad promoting the Swans Vs Carlton game about 10 times this week on FTA TV. Same the other week for the Swans vs Hawthorn game.
This is an example of shoving AFL down our throats! There are many more…
I have never seen any promotion like this in Syd except for maybe the Socceroo’s games or state of origin.
I doubt any sporting team in Aus has received this much exposure.. there should be no excuses for lower crowds or lower TV Audience…
Max Lamberto said | April 15th 2009 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
All of which presumes that watching a game of NRL at any ground from more than 30 rows from the front is a good experience for your $$ bucks. You’re comparing AFL Swans v NRL Storm crowd numbers even though the games are different and one is better on tv and the other is better on the ground. AFL and soccer work as “in person” spectator sports much better than the rugby codes.
Redb said | April 16th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Michael B,
It’s called advertising, likewise the first RL SOO game is being widely promoted on TV in Melbourne (now, 3 mths out) – that game is between QLD and NSW, relevance?. is that shoving it down my throat? or just simply promotion. I don’t to watch or go to the game but some people will.
“there should be no excuses for lower crowds or lower TV audience” – are you building your defence already?
The Melbourne storm are owned by News Ltd who have pumped tens of millions into the Storm, far more than the AFL could muster for the Swans, and yet despite two premierships and GF appearances the crowd dropped to 10,000. – what is their excuse? They are owned and promoted by the biggest circulation newspaper in Australia, the Melbourne Herald Sun.
The fact is a different code takes time to become part of the landscape, the Swans may have been around since 1981 in Sydney, but have gone through differing periods of success and failure and it has probably only been since 1996 that they became a real football club and started to get into the conscious of sports fans, rather than being perceived as relocated Melbourne team with private ownership and pink helicopters.
I repeat, the media is far more hostile towards AFL in Sydney than NRL in Melbourne. They have successfuly fostered an invasion rhetoric, “they’re trying to take over”. Is it any wonder so many of you death ride the Swans at every turn – it’s a sport in Sydney to watch the TV ratings for the Swans rather than just watching the Swans.
The Swans have a niche in the Sydney market and more improtantly on the ground the grass roots and school programs are developing. At the grass roots level the support for growth from the AFL has only come in the last few years.
Redb
Michael B said | April 16th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Its funny that you blame the Sydney media for trying to portray a message of “AFL trying to take over”, but yet AFL fans across a number of sites, blogs and forums openly state that “AFL is coming to Syd to take over”, “NRL is dying”, “League is on its knees”, “Western Syd team is being set up to kill off the NRL”, etc…
Its amazing the number of AFL fans that death ride NRL and Ruby League in general… and you wonder why we get so defensive..
Pippinu said | April 16th 2009 @ 11:42am | Report comment
MB
I”ve never known any AFL fan on the ROAR to death ride the NRL (mind you, there aren’t many of us here!)
It’s true to say that the average Southerner doesn’t take much notice of the rugby codes – but that’s a little different to saying that they wish either code ill (and in fairness, Melburnians come in large numbers to show piece events of either rugby code).
Michael B said | April 16th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Pippinu
I know that AFL fans have not publicly stated this on the ROAR (I don’t remember mentioning the ROAR).
But it is quite rife across a number of other sites though..
Not everyone AFL fan has this view, but there seems to be some deep hatred for League down south..
chris g said | April 17th 2009 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
Storm average crowd in 2008 was 12474, not bad in a ground whose capacity is only about 16000. The test will be how they go in a revamped and larger ground.
I’m sorry RedB, but over the years every AFL honcho i have ever read has talked about the inevitable rise of AFL in NSW and Qld and the aim of eventually becoming the dominant code. Talk of co-existence is limited to times when it suits (like now and the Western Sydney proposal). As for the Swans progress; it is real, there are more kids (indeed mostly upper middle class boys whose mummy doesn’t like the rough rugby boys and who are lousy soccer players) playing, one day the game may get back to where it was in Sydney 100 years ago. And RedB, the literally 10s of millions the AFL pumps into NSW and Qld swamps the News Ltd investment in the Storm.
I don’t know why AFL people are so adamant their game is kings*** and can’t tolerate opposition; some sort of insecurity thing i suspect, deep in their heart of hearts they know AFL is ludicrously provincial. And now they talk seriously about being the dominant code in NZ; tell ‘em their dreaming.
Pippinu said | April 17th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
I can’t imagine anyone seriously thinking that aussie rules can become the dominant code in NZ – the name of the game alone is a bit of an impediment!!
Peter said | April 22nd 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
I noticed that the swannies game wasn’t up against the Iron Chef this week. Maybe it’s for the best after such a pitifully low Sydney TV viewer ship all this year so far.
But what about the Brisbane TV Viewers for Victorian Handball this past week.
Now not only was the Lions game SMASHED beyond submission its terms of the Friday night Game against the Broncos [with a NRL winning by a +4:1 ratio]. But what about the shameful PRIME-TIME Saturday Night game TV ratings ….38,000.
C10 must be slitting their wrists as to WHY that agreed to show not only Lions game in Prime-Time by NON Lions games to the Brisvegas market.
No wonder the Stations broke. I suggest they get Sandra Sully to host/commentate the coverage. In that cast they would get more that 2&dog watching.
1 Billion for next Victorian Handball TV deal…………Only if they get payed in Mexican pesos.
Woody Warambel said | May 22nd 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
More pain for the Swans – beaten by everything in its timeslot:
http://www.realfooty.com.au/articles/2009/05/21/1242498846785.html
“Abba puts Swans in the shade in west
Michael Cowley | May 21, 2009 – 11:07AM
JUST a few weeks ago, Australian Rugby League chief executive Geoff Carr declared western Sydney could be a Vietnam for the AFL. They rejected that suggestion, and have said it won’t be their Waterloo either, regardless of some disappointing television figures in the city last weekend.
Despite strong promotion throughout the week, focusing on the extraordinary rivalry between Sydney and the West Coast, fans in Sydney just decided not to tune into Network Ten to watch the match on half-an hour delay, with even Abba: The Movie on SBS, a film made in 1977 when just four of the Swans current crop of players were born, outrated the game.
While it was ranked nationally the 10th best program of the day, the Swans-Eagles clash averaged just 76,000 viewers in Sydney, compared with the 77,000 for 9.30pm Abba epic. And the average for the program which preceded the Abba movie at 7.30pm, the Eurovison Song Contest the contest won by Abba in 1974 with the song Waterloo was a strong 118,000.
On Seven, Kath and Kim and then The Vicar of Dibley, and the movie Meet The Parents all rated better than the Swans game, as did Nine’s pair of movies, so too The Bill on ABC, really almost everything did all day.
The only programs with lower average audiences in Sydney were a Disney movie shown on Seven at 9am (75,000 average), the Saturday Disney show on Seven at 7am (62,000), and Ten’s Saturday afternoon AFL match between premiership favourites Geelong and North Melbourne which averaged just 50,000.
While some might see the figures as Sydney turning off AFL a problem as the code looks to launch the Western Sydney team in 2012,
AFL NSW/ACT general manager Dale Holmes said yesterday the poor ratings did not affect their plans for expansion.
“You have peaks and troughs, and that can be correlated to the cycle of performance,” he said. “That’s natural, it happens to all sports, but what we are talking about is a long-term strategy for expanding the game. The [AFL] Commission has reiterated its commitment to that plan. We don’t make long-term strategic decisions based on short-term fluctuations.
“These are short-term fluctuations, and what we are talking about is a generational investment for a long-term growth of the game. From that perspective, it [poor ratings] doesn’t impact at all on our expansion strategy. In some ways, it reinforces the need for us to grow the game across a broader base of Sydney.”
A crowd of 33,079 attended the match at ANZ Stadium, and while not many turned on their televisions at home, a trend is for people to gather at local pubs and clubs to watch matches.
The ratings could be a good omen for the Swans. In 2005, much was made of when SBS’s Iron Chef outrated a StKilda-Swans match. Sydney, of course, went on to win the flag that season.