By Jesse Fink
April 9th 2009 @ 7:12am
Related coverage
24/7 football coverage is not all it’s cracked up to be
Australian captain Mark Viduka (9) competes for the ball with Sotirios Kyrgiakos of Greece. AP Photo/Mark Baker
I got a lot of personal satisfaction a year ago in anointing Mark Milligan “Where’s Wally” for his habit of leaving clubs without notice and jetting off overseas, but I’m starting to think it could also be a good nickname for Mark Viduka.
Not playing in the Premiership and AWOL with the Socceroos, the V-Bomber has been linked to just about every Australian club going around in recent months, from Melbourne Victory to Melbourne Knights to Melbourne Heart and now to Gold Coast United.
Then there was that embarrassing story about Pim Verbeek sending an “SOS” to Viduka to play in the World Cup campaign, which turned out to be completely fictional.
The Viduka to Gold Coast yarn was enough for News Limited to run with a big story on Tuesday declaring “Gold Coast United coach Miron Bleiberg is planning to bring 33-year-old Viduka to the new A-League club as a guest player.”
Bleiberg denies it, Gold Coast moneybags Clive Palmer denies it.
Not to say it might not turn out to be true, but until such time as there’s any verification from the player or his manager or the officials of the club he is supposed to be going to, why bother printing it? Just another cynical ploy to sell papers and a sign of the diminution of editorial standards in the Australian football media.
What are editors there for any more?
Not to say I don’t deal from time to time in rumour and innuendo, but I’m careful to couch what I write or suggest as possibilities (strong or otherwise) and not fact and I usually only listen to a few trusted sources.
Like any writer working in this business, though, I’ve been seriously burned a couple of times and I try to make amends when I make an error. And what I write is always opinion; I’m not writing news.
But there are some sites on the wild-west frontier of the worldwide web that seem quite happy to pass off completely unsubstantiated rubbish as fact – and there are a number of them in Australia and overseas. But it’s not just the start-ups. The websites of established newspapers, as my colleague Mike Tuckerman revealed in January here at The Roar, also swallow stories without verifying the facts.
The “Masal Bugduv” story completely fooled The Times and was a nadir for online football journalism.
But it achieved one positive thing: it made football fans a little bit more sceptical about what is presented as news – and so they should always be sceptical.
The internet has been a boon to football followers in this country but it’s also created a monster: the expectation of news 24/7 when there often isn’t a lot of real news to go around. And the pressure to publish what passes as news when it really shouldn’t be published.
So next time you read a news story about Mark Viduka, you’re likely better off not reading it unless it carries a quote from the man himself or is written by somebody who knows the player personally and can vouch that he’s what he’s written is the honest-to-god truth.
Otherwise, chances are, like Palmer said, it’s just “made up”.
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Cpaaa said | April 9th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
so Jess pick up the phone, call the Duke and ask when is he coming?
thanks
Dave said | April 9th 2009 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Gee facts you ask…checking sources???…does that mean the Herald Sun would have to employ journalists??
Tom said | April 9th 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Yeah good call Jesse.
Pippinu said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Rumours circulating unchecked in the world of football – I could never have dreamed that such a thing was possible.
Slippery Jim said | April 9th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
A call for journalistic integrity from Jesse? A noble notion indeed. Perhaps this means he will check the facts the next time his favourite player is left out of the Socceroos squad before presumptuously blaming curses and coaches as is his wont.
Jesse Fink said | April 9th 2009 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
Jim, you know sweet FA about what went on and the full story so stop banging your drum about it.
Joe FC said | April 9th 2009 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
Can’t argue with anything you say Jesse. The problem is we are all intrigued by rumour and innuendo
Ryan Steele said | April 9th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
The beauty of the sport is that there’s always something to report. When one league ends for the year, another starts up. The problem is the lack of global coverage from the media.
In our sad reality, though, there’s even a lack of interstate coverage – not once have I seen a news report about the Jets’ draw against Nagoya Grampus, nor about the Mariners major loss to Kawasaki Frontale, on any of the local channels. Very similar to the missing coverage during United’s ACL run, last year.
It’s all well and good that the various sporting codes can get along with football, but until the media get on board, there won’t be enough forward movement.
Slippery Jim said | April 9th 2009 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
Really Jesse? And how would you know? I could be his mother for all you know. You know sweet FA about what I know, I think that CAN be established.
And does the same go for, say, Michael Cockerill, who seemed to be more in touch with the facts then you did, or at least, more willing to portray them. I’m not sure which is preferable of those two options.
If you want to write a self-righteous article espousing virtue and accuracy of the media, all power to you, but surely you must realize that includes you, too. You “never let the facts get in the way of a good story” last time I checked. Much more interesting reading I’m sure, when you blur the line between fact and fiction.
Greg said | April 9th 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Slippery
Change your tune. The negative bilge you constantly spout out is getting boring.
There’s being smart and there’s being a smart-arse, a line you are dangerously close to crossing.
Save your time on a predictable response btw.
jimbo said | April 9th 2009 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
News Limited printed a Front Page News Story in the Sydney Daily Telegraph a few weeks back about “Record Opening Round Rugby League Season” despite the fact that it wasn’t a record at all – 10% less attendance than last year’s opening round in fact.
The AFL Annual Report says that AFL is growing by 30% in NSW and Western Sydney is crying out for a second AFL team, despite falling AFL crowds in Sydney and the ABS figures suggesting there is no AFL growth at all in NSW.
I know times are tough, but where’s the truth in Sports Journalism and Reporting gone?
Slippery Jim said | April 10th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
jimbo, careful, Greg will accuse you of spouting negative bilge…apparently he wants us to accept misleading journalism as the way of the future.
Koala Bear said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Jimbo,
I’ll give you a true story lad; yesterday I watched Chelsea humiliate the Red on their own turf (Anfield) and Drogba scoring one of the best goals I have seen him score…
Slippery Jim, their are 6 billion stories reported on the planet in one day.. and that was the best of them … Chelsea 3; Liverpool 1…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Slippery Jim said | April 10th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Indeed, it could have been 6-1 if Drogba was at his best! Hello Barcelona, eh KB!
The Bear said | April 10th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Greg, the path to hell is lined with good intentions. I for one appreciate your input, but it is doubtful Slippery cares about the “line”. Or if he does, he is powerless to maintain a discipline to abide by it. We all know he has a point re: factual journalism, and that Jesse maybe somewhere in the wider orb of “respectable journalism”.
However, it is Jim’s purposefully aggressive tone and his seemingly obstinate duty to be Fink’s cyber-minder, that manages to distort his message and invariably it becomes lost in the personalisation of the issue.
Still many on here know all this, and sift through the mire of Slippery’s regular “letter to the editor”-type posts.
I read his argumentative post early on in the blog, and thought about saying something.
But time has shown it is futile. “Curses and Coaches”, aside.
Infact, the more I ponder it, perhaps SJ is actually a construct, a blog-pseudonym for Jesse. I can only speculate, but have we ever seen these “two” post at the EXACT same time???
Fink/SJ, the jig is up.
Slippery Jim said | April 10th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Strangely, that’s not even the craziest conspiracy theory I have heard on the Roar, The Bear (is it just me or are the species and number of bears on the roar multiplying???)
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
SJ
As much as I supported the campaign to expose the disinformation about Nicky Carle. I think just let it go now. He has admitted he got it wrong on a comment on a previous article. Although I would like an article explicitly stating that he got it wrong about Nick Carle I don’t think that’s going to happen
He also wrote this in this article “Like any writer working in this business, though, I’ve been seriously burned a couple of times and I try to make amends when I make an error.”
I guess that’s the most we can hope for a public retraction
The Bear said | April 10th 2009 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
Yeah, the more I think about it Jim, you have an uncanny and intimate knowledge of what Jesse Fink has written, especially regarding Fink’s critique and musings on the Green and Gold. And you reference him a little too “cutely” in many of your Fink blog postings, too.
Perhaps it is merely in effort on Jesse’s part to prop up the debate(s). Let’s face it you (?) writers have no scruples, and the credit crunch is obviously testing your morales. {insert defamatory case here, lol}
Now, if I am right on this matter, let it be known that I would not be alone in feeling highly aggrieved by such a duplicitous “tactic”. But I fear I will never know, unless Fink admits it himself. Maybe then.
And for the number of Bears populating the site? Safety in numbers, obviously. I would speculate that myself and KB give off an air of confidence and intelligence, that has drawn in other furry woodland friends.
Once agan, just a theory, of course.
Slippery Jim said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Dasilva, I quote: “But it achieved one positive thing: it made football fans a little bit more sceptical about what is presented as news – and so they should always be sceptical.”
Jesse himself says scepticism is a positive thing. Then both he and Greg (who seems to think it negative) have a go at me for being just that. I find that interesting.
The Bear, are you loaning that tin foil hat off Pippu?!?! I hear he had little use for it after the vics won the toilet seat
jimbo said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
The Blue army marches on KB and Drogba coming back to form at the right time.
Ivanovic given a chance to shine and shine he did.
Barcelona won’t get that much room aginst Guus the Great and mark us down for our first European Champion’s League title when we demolish Porto in the final..
Joe FC said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
jimbo
as long as it’s not Man U!
jimbo said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Interesting stat Joe FC that a British team has never won an ECL game against Porto in Portugal.
So I’m fancying Porto to go through to the semi against Arsenal. Porto to win that too.
Chelsea play Barcelona in the other Semi and have the wood on them in recent years and will beat them to get into the ECL final at the Olympic Stadium Rome on May 27 against Porto – and of course we know who is going to win that one.
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Interestingly enough, Jesse Fink had made a misquote today on TWG but he re-edited it and removed the error from “Don’t mess with the Socceroos, Ben, or there’ll be hell to pay” article
Initially it was “I think it is here for at least 3 years tops” from Ben buckley
Now it says “… I think it’s here for the foreseeable future.” correcting the misquotation from Ben Buckley
Joe FC said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
yes jimbo I can see it all unfolding just as you say…err is that Chelsea?
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
initially Jesse complained about why there is an expiry date for the Socceroos and then ended up changing it.
Actually just looking at the article again. It’s still ends up with
“So, please, rather than say “it is here for at least the next three years, tops”, say “it is here for good”.
You’ll be putting a lot of anxious minds at rest.”
Looks like he still hasn’t completely edited out the misquotation yet.
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Have a subscribed to TWGF. Have a look at “Buckley: ‘Socceroos’ to stay” post and then “Jesse Fink secretly editing his blogs ”
I think you will appreciate it.
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
I’ll summarise what’s going on.
On The World Game Forum. A poster cut and past this article from TWG website but made some alterations
Australia’s hardcore football fans can relax.
Football Federation Australia has no plans to abandon the name “Socceroos” any time soon, even if there is debate within the governing body about the nickname’s relevance in the shiny world of “new football”.
That’s the view of FFA boss Ben Buckley, who told The World Game “football” and “Socceroos” can happily co-exist.
“There is history in the name and it is a very recognisable and identifiable name,” Buckley said. “The Socceroos name is a brand that is immediately understood by a lot of people in Australia.
“It is something that is debated from time to time,” Buckley added. “Given that over the past few years we have made a very determined effort to have the game known as football, we have discussed whether the moniker should stay.
“But I think it is here for at least the next three years tops. There is a lot of equity in the name but it is good to have that debate from time to time. I think we have bigger issues to deal with in football than this one.”
Buckley said that, in Australia, no sport had a right to own the name “football” and that, contrary to popular belief, administrators from different sports did get along.
“The name ‘football’ certainly makes for good colourful debate,” Buckley said. “A lot of codes call themselves football. American football, Gaelic football, rugby league gets called football. I don’t think that anyone has a proprietary right to the name.
“Clearly, football is the world game but in Australia everyone can coexist and cooperate. I think we all do get along. We all recognise it is a very competitive landscape but every one of the ‘football’ – in quotation marks – codes understands that we are all here to stay and can coexist. It is competitive but generally there is a spirit of cooperation when required.”
Compare this from the forums to the actual real source
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/australia/buckley-socceroos-to-stay-181145/
__________________
If you spot the alterations, it was the “But I think it is here for at least the next three years tops” which is not what Ben Buckley said when he really said “But I think it is here for the foreseeable future.” which was from the actual TWG website. Jesse Fink then wrote an article “Don’t mess with the Socceroos, Ben, or there’ll be hell to pay” where he used TWGF misquote and complained “When has there been an expiry date on the name and why?”
It’s look like Jesse Fink got the quote from reading TWG forum and not from the actual website.
Ah Jesse, I love your work but this isn’t your finest moment.
Midfielder said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
Papa & Das + Others
An interview with DARIO VIDOSIC on 24/03/09 … a possible Socceroos striker…he seems like a very nice young kid..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeNn9DzC8dY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmarinators.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D125.425&feature=player_embedded
here’s the translation of the German parts:
reporter: the man of the evening
Dario (match against Weiden): I trained for 1 week but I was ill for 2 days (had to go to hospital)
Dario: I can speak German a little bit, it is not bad as I am here for 1.5 years now; I understand a little bit but normally English is better
reporter: things are going very well in German
Dario: thanks, it’s ok.
reporter: you played 3 matches: 20mins against Duisburg, 4 mins against Ahlen and 17mins against Fuerth. Are you hoping to get more match time in the future?
Dario: Maybe, but it is the trainer’s decision…I had a knee problem for 5 months, now I have to get back some strength in my leg…I can play next week for 20/10/5 mins
reporter: I don’t translate what you said as it is so nice hearing you speaking some German and English. Stick to that.
Dario: It is good practising some German as it is live TV. Speaking German is difficult but I tried it
——————————-
I personally think, that his German is really really OK
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
It’s now edited out in his blog but not completely as there’s still “So, please, rather than say “it is here for at least the next three years, tops”, say “it is here for good”.
You’ll be putting a lot of anxious minds at rest.” at the bottom
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
Thanks Midfielder, it was an interesting interview. Have you seen his goal for his club. Not a bad finish
http://www.tvgolo.com/goals_germany.php?subaction=showfull&id=1237854395&archive=2&start_from=&ucat=43&
Although I think there’s rumours that he is going to play for Croatia. Is there any resolution on that front?
Did you actually translated his german yourself?
What do you think of my attempted expose on Jesse?
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Although I can’t get credit for it. Many people on TWG forum notice it before I did.
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:29pm | Report comment
hmm
looks like the link didn’t work
click on the germany flag at the top of the website and you’ll see Freiberg vs Nurnberg 0-1.
You should be able to see the highlights of vidosic’s goal
Midfielder said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
Good goal..took it well great turn and nice shot …him and Jesus up frot with Troisis & Jedi behind .
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
dasilva, look all writers make mistakes, and cringe afterwards. Correcting them is perfectly natural. But if you are going to quote anyone, you want to make sure it’s legitimate. Those little quotation marks can get you into all sorts of trouble otherwise. You do well to remain vigilant,dasilva, when reading football stories in general, after all, as Jesse says: “chances are, like Palmer said, it’s just “made up””
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 10:01am | Report comment
It is a rather salient point made by Joe FC, that integrity acts as a guide for human nature however that this is often undone by the desire from writers and readers to indulge in wild speculation. Poor journalists will feed that speculation and the readership, much like the crowd at a magic show, are willing participants in the charade. Hence the importance of shows such as Media Watch where we both have a laugh at poor journalism as well as at ourselves for enjoying the ride.
As far as blogs not constituting news….. this is a topic for a PhD. Needless to say I learn more about the J-League (and a little too much about Shimizu S-Pulse) from Mike Tuckerman’s blog than I do from almost any other English language sources. Much of this depends upon the level of peer to peer engagement in the blog.
I find the fascination with Dukes a little hard to fathom. The guy did a great service to Australia, going to small island nations in games no-one cared about despite the concerns of his Premier League bosses and with little thanks from the Australian footballing public. That said I believe his time in international football (as a player) has come to an end and we need to be looking forward. A few more articles of wild speculation involving Djite, Triosi, Jameison etc would at least show that poor journalists have the virtue of being optimistic about our footballing future.
The Bear said | April 11th 2009 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Pip should definitely retire the Tin foil hat immediately. The Bushrangers took the Sheffield Shield as well! Am I the most worthy recipient for it though? Perhaps… but I’m watching you Fink!! Your Slippery Jim pseudonym is crafty, but I will crack the “code”., lol. AS for Vidosic, another worthy “Olyroo”-cum-Socceroo, imo. Good luck to him.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Dasilva and Slippery Jim – you really need to lighten up. I quoted that article from an email from a colleague, whereupon the anomaly was noticed against the original article linked in the text. I then queried SBS why there was an anomaly, if there was a dead link I didn’t know about, if there were two versions of the story, if the story had been changed and by whom and why, and being Easter Friday did not get a reply until 5pm. After confirmation much later that evening (because of the time difference) from Matthew Hall, the writer of the story, who lives in New York, the correct quote was reinstated – as it should be. It didn’t change the point of the argument – being a Socceroos name change not being completely ruled out by the FFA. For the record I have no ability or capacity to go and edit my own articles. They are done by the TWG editor and him alone.
Norm said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
this is definitely the Roar’s most interesting thread!
The Bear said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Journalism about Journalism and a thread about threads in a Football blog. Yes quite interesting, and how very postmodern of us all.
dasilva said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Jesse Fink
Accidents can happens. Fair enough. It’s just look very suspicious that the same misquote came from TWG forum from a certain “Tleilaxu” who has the habit of posting news articles for comment and then changing the contents of the article for humours or other reasons. Whether you got it from that source or not, you have to admit it’s pretty funny.
If you claim otherwise then I’ll back off.
Nevertheless I do believe that the point of the story is a bit weaken. FFA basically just said that there’s not going to be a name change for a forseeable future. I agree that Socceroos should remain there forever (as I’ve posted on the comment section agreeing with you). Your response seems disproportionate to what Ben Buckley was saying that the name is going to stay for a long time and your attack seems heavy handed then it should be.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
“For the foreseeable future” is hardly a concrete guarantee, Dasilva. Like a non-core promise. So I still hold to my argument. Yes, you’re right accidents do happen and we try to correct them (isn’t that preferable to doing nothing at all?). I can assure you I wanted to do other things yesterday than ringing around people who I couldn’t get on the phone because of the Easter break to confirm what was right and what wasn’t. It’s sorted now.
dasilva said | April 11th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Ok, all is forgiven Jesse.
Papa Smurf -- Koala Bear said | April 11th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
God I hate the name “Socceroos” .. The name suxs and we should be calling the Australian National Football Team the “Australian National Football Team” .. The only ones who I can see that love the name “Socceroos” unanimously in their demographic are the AFL folk .. A reason enough to ditch the name … About time we called our boys the Australian national Football Team … “The ROOS” if we must have a nickname .. But the term Sokkah is dead and buried..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Jes
For the record, I believe you, but moreover, and here I need to build myself up at tad refer below.
A business client who is very successful once told me the secret to his success was that he had average taste, and fetl if he liked something then others would too… so his various business and investments where not about gut feel but more about if he liked and enjoyed them … others would too he assumed so a safe investment.
Following on this advise we have few in Australian quality journalist in football. We have few in number but very few quality that IMO speak to the average … as opposed to the cargo culture of Europe or South American…
The journalist I rate …. “”" and therefore my belief is I believe I am normal so the people I love to read, and others will too””’ … these are my quality people … Sebastian Hassett, Scott McIntyre, Jes Fink, Mike Tucherman, Simon Hill …… Of these people I demand a higher standard than others … Also I expect better timing and broader issues including good stories rather than just negative ones… balance and less agenda from employers perspective i.e. toeing the company line…
If I have a issue with you Jes is since you joined SBS there have been less positive articles and more the SBS doom and gloom …. However the last two weeks has been a pleasant (for me) a return to the old Jessie … Even Les wrote a article recently that had some positives in it…..
Jes I still wait (6 months now) for the positive article on the training academies and the now there are four … a new one in QLD, so we have The Mariners center of football excellence estimated value when completed 60 million, ….. The Riverstone complex when completed 40 million, the Sydney complex when completed about 20 million, now a Brisbane / Gold Coast academy not sure of the value but well over 15 million is my understanding ….
But I digress Jes you are still up there, and I believe you in your answers above ….. but accept I and others too I assume expect you to be of a higher quality and sources than others …. Also we need top quality people to write …
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Midfielder, thanks for the comments. But I disagree with your assertion I am negative and the implication that I adhere to the SBS line on things. Read my views on 6+5, Pim Verbeek and the 2018 World Cup bid. In most cases if not all my opinions are diametrically opposite to those held by Fozz or Les, the supposed but mythical editorial mandarins of SBS. I have my own opinions and express them, not always to the pleasure of other people.
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Jes
If I through you where totally negative or only ran an SBS line you would not be in my above group of journalist, … but and this is only memory (gut feel) since you have been at SBS you appear more negative… that aside I accept you do write some positive stuff….
Also thanks for the reply and as unfair as this may be …”" but I expect excellence from you “”"” that said I expect this from Mike Tucherman, Simon Hill & am watching Sebastian Hassett, Scott McIntyre as to me they are the best of the new guys.
PS Jes …. Troisi is better than Carle … change to put Troisi in the national side
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
I must say I am thoroughly enjoying this. Discussions on journalistic merit and public perceptions are interesting. One thing that should be noted is that the pundits on SBS tends to take a greater analytical approach to the game and hence will not be satisfied until we have the mechanisms in place to win us the World Cup. I can live with that.
Jesse, “For the foreseeable future” is the only guarantee that Ben Buckley can make. He possibly couldplace more emphasis upon his personal commitment to the name however this will not change the reality that once his tenure is over, and that of others, that this issue may rise again. The best protection for the term Socceroos will come from both the team’s success as well as its history.
megatron said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Guys you get a free source of entertainment from these journos and you ask for more when most of you couldn’t do it yourselves. Look to other media outlets, News Corp websites, Today Tonight, A Current Affair to see we have great analysis and debate with sites like this.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:38pm | Report comment
Megatron, I’m just back from a short trip to Australia for a mate’s wedding. In general I was appalled by the quality of the television news services. I guess I had forgotten.
megatron said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
I think the likes of Jesse, Mike and Adrian on this site are all great writers in their own way providing different analysis and yet people still complain.
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
Megatron
You are my new favorite poster … News Corp… Today Tonight… ACA…. as a source of quality independent information…. and support of football … hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha….. some cheer in a Easter Saturday night …
megatron said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
midfielder you completely missed my point. See how bad those shows are at tackling the important issues to see how the media has lost it’s way. Sites like these provide more analysis and depth in sport than shows like aca and tt do in their fields.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:58pm | Report comment
Dasilva – I have learned my own lesson in this affair, which is to be more careful about how I use my sources and which ones I can rely on, even if it’s just for a shoot-from-the-hip column using secondary sources. For the record, I think the TWG forum is a fantastic resource for anyone who’s a fan of the game or a journalist who wants to know what is occupying the minds of fans. I’ve visited the site in the past just to see what people are talking about, and I don’t know any SBS staffer or Australian football journo who doesn’t. It’s a shame a lot of the discourse on it is puerile, because there are some people on there who are very good commentators on the game and they raise some interesting points of discussion. I am only trying in my work to give a platform to what the average “man on the street” is thinking about the game. I think a lot of my messages just get lost in point-scoring and nitpicking by my detractors, which include Contrarian and others who frequently post on here.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
Midfielder – I thank you for the compliment. In my opinion Mike Tuckerman is excellent and he has been a great addition to The Roar’s stable of writers. Tony Tannous (The Roundball Analyst) is also a very good writer and a fine technical mind. The best football broadcaster going around IMO is Simon Hill, who did me the honour of launching my book, and Mark Bosnich is coming good as an “expert comments” provider.
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
Megatron
I did miss your point we all know how bad the ACA and so sites are… Also some realise how important this site is … this is as I understand it an independent media site that has no bias against football and employs some real quality journalist in fact two of the best football journalist in Jes & Mike…
My problem is I cannot help myself I rate the quality of what I read based on my own perception of things, the quality of writing, research and contacts, theme, etc … this site is important for Football as I see it as no other independent general media outlet provides football with equal space and paid journalist … that is why I am hostile at times to the best not living up to my expectations of them. Jessie is my top journalist so I expect a lot from him … it is that simple…
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
Group hug
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
Come on, Jesse, it’s a bit rich to keep calling me a nitpicker and resort to your infantile name calling just because I disagree with you and provide reasoning for why. I have complimented you many times in the past, you seem to prefer to focus on where our opinions differ. Completely your prerogative, of course, and nothing I can do about it, it’s hardly going to stop me doing my bit to keep things honest.
Totally agree about Bozza’s commentary, by the way, he is head and shoulders above most of the Foxsports crew…
Megatron, whether on this site or others, every blogger is well within their rights (in keeping with the theme of this very topic from Jesse) to point out errors, misrepresentation or outright fabrication. No one, whether on basis of supposed reputation, entertainment value, or any other reason should be immune to this kind of scrutiny. Unless, of course you would prefer simply to have your ears tickled. Personally, I like to know whats what.
Oh, and none of these writers are charity workers, they take home a paycheck just like anyone else – not that that makes any difference. It’s the roar of the crowd writers who deserve the most kudos for doint it pro bono. So be generous with your cheers!
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
Midfielder, again, no one holds me to higher expectations than myself. But we all make errors from time to time and fuck up, I’ve done it professionally and personally. I’m human. But there are serious errors of judgement and then there are trivial ones, and I think a lot of the time people confuse the two – especially in the blogosphere, where the guarantee of anonymity makes everyone a fearless critic. The difference between me and yourself and Contrarian and anyone on here is I post as myself and have a reputation and livelihood to uphold and protect. You can say what you like, even be wrong, and there are few if any consequences. I make a mistake and it becomes a cause celebre for Australian football’s chattering classes. You learn to develop a thick skin.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
Contrarian, you are the eminence grise of nitpickers. I meet people in the street and the first thing they ask me is “Who is that Slippery Jim c**t. He’s really got it in for you,” I just have to shrug my shoulders and say I don’t know you and have never met you. So your “work” is not going unnoticed. Keep it up.
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
That’s true to a certain extent, Jesse, (although online blogger reputations are definately a reality too, I was amused, and then gradually became quite annoyed when someone started posting on TWG using my name and location, for example) however in my line of work if I make a mistake I am also held accountable and will have to put up with the unsatisfied parties and make restitution to them just like you, and I’m sure most of us on here are the same. By the way, I assure you I am just as outspoken in person. Causes me no end of grief, to be honest!
Surely you can see the delicious irony of writing an article having a good laugh at the Times for their error with the fictional footballer, the Mark Viduka stories etc, and then feeling hard done by when people mention the odd occasions you have put a foot wrong? Or does your sense of humour fail when it comes to yourself? Whether it’s a dodgy article or a dodgy pizza, any consumer has a right to their say. As I have said to many a disgruntled customer “we appreciate your feedback and will use it to improve our service” (which we genuinely do try to do).
Adrian Musolino said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:50pm | Report comment
Interesting debate and I agree wholeheartedly with Jesse. I completely agree with his comment – “I am only trying in my work to give a platform to what the average “man on the street” is thinking about the game.”
We do our best to write about current sporting issues that will resonate with the readers and sometimes we do get it wrong and sometimes you may not agree with us. We are not pushing an agenda for anyone in particular, we have complete freedom to write what we wish and this does allow us to write about topical and interesting issues in sport that we feel strongly about.
It’s difficult to cater for everyones tastes and opinions but be grateful you are on a site that allows you to debate these points, share your viewpoint and even write your own pieces. Few sites give you that freedom.
The worst is when people who don’t agree with our point of view vilify us personally and that is not acceptable. It doesn’t happen often but it has occasionally. Sadly some hide behind a keyboard computer and username and flame attacks and this is not what we want at the Roar. As Jesse says you develop a thick skin in this business however personal attacks do still hurt. We all make mistakes and are human. Remember for the likes of Jesse and I this is our livelihood so please bare that in mind.
Keep the debates on topic and don’t go into personal judgements.
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:50pm | Report comment
Wow – I had to look up ‘grise’ – fantastic word. Look, I’m over it, lets move on, but if it makes any difference I enjoy a good debate with family and friends about things that interest me, I’m the same online, there is nothing at all personal in it, it’s just the way it comes across at times. If I didn’t enjoy most of your articles I wouldn’t read them and comment on them sometimes.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
Jesse, I’m not sure if most people are aware of the basic principles of journalistic ethics so at times the conversations do seem to run askew.
You do indeed post under your own name however your reputation also is your career path, whereas for most posters (I sincerely hope) it is not. Hence anonymity does indeed make for a fearless critic however without that genuine discourse would be more difficult to come by as fewer people would be prepared to engage. This very anonymity makes the blog-o-sphere a reality. That said the anonymous posting of information has also resulted in sloppy journalism which your initial article alluded to and, quite interestingly, this thread seems to have expanded upon.
Look on the bright side, your critics are armed with keyboards whilst for some of us the critics are occasionally armed in a far more literal sense.
On a far more serious topic I’ve just, in the last 5 minutes, discovered cold James Boag’s in Phnom Penh. The Tasmania bid is looking better by the minute.
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
I really should be getting drunk and getting laid right now, but I will say this: the difference between my TWG blog and the Viduka to GC story is that it is presented as FACT without supporting quotes or attribution. I have used a quote in good faith that for whatever reason was doctored or incorrect to support my OWN OPINION and then corrected that quote upon further clarification from the source of the article itself. Have you seen an amendment to the Viduka story since it was published midweek to say he’s not coming the the GC? In my case the correction to the wording didn’t even change the import of the whole argument: that the FFA hadn’t guaranteed the use of the name “Socceroos” for perpetuity but for “the foreseeable future” (a politician’s stand-by when he or she doesn’t want to commit to a date or course of action). Now, please, get out there, son, and burn off some of your excess nervous energy on some booze or a sheila or whatever takes your fancy. Enjoy your weekend.
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Come on Tassie!
Ben, you’re right about anonymous posting of information has also resulted in sloppy journalism, for instance in the case of the “Masal Bugduv” story was lifted by the Times journalists directly from unverified anonymous bloggers and wikipedia entries. This appears to have been done deliberately by bloggers posing as different posters. Hence the alarm by people like dasilva when information appears (although I sincerely hope it did not) to have been taken of a forum rather than a creditable source.
dasilva said | April 11th 2009 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
Jesse
No worries, i recognized it’s just a minor mistake and I’m certainly not comparing you to the hacks that done the Viduka stories or the Masal Bugduv. However like SJ pointed out it was certainly alarm bells was ringing when it seemed like you were using forum post as a source and the shear irony of it is that your article was only day after you wrote this one bemoaning the standard of football journalism. However I’m certainly going to give you the benefit of doubt.
For what it’s worth, I do agree with your general message of your article about the socceroos and recognise the factual errors didn’t change the overall message (although I do believe that it could have done with a less harsh tone. I believe it could have been better written as a discussion about whether we should keep the name rather then a critique on Ben Buckley’s comment who I believe only deserve at best minor criticism for his statement)
The World Game forum is certainly full of purile and irrelevant post. I think most of the credible stuff comes form the Australian Football section of the forum. Even then its get dragged down to name calling and personal attacks. I’m pretty sick of seeing “new dawners” and “bitters” brandish around in that forum.
Anyway I also like the round ball analyst but my favorite blogger so far is Mike Salter from The Football Tragic (although apparently, didn’t you have a stouch with him?)
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
Here’s another blunder by the Times and News of the World:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/paper-links-liverpool-to-player-who-doesnt-exist-738961.html
Apparently they printed an article that a player named Didier Baptiste was about to sign for Liverpool, when in fact he was a fictional character on a football-themed TV soap on pay tv, and was obviously never with Monaco as reported!
Jesse Fink said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
Salter? Hahahahaha. Not getting into that stoush again, but he was an ass and called me “a moron” on no provocation, at which I took the expected amount of umbrage. Tannous is definitely my pick of the young turks in the Australian blogosphere. He will tell you himself he’s not the best wordsmith but he he has a great analytical brain that is a delight to pick.
The Bear said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
SJ, your link further goes to show that journo’s, highly paid and from credible stables, get it wrong. Very wrong on this occasion, lol. It is a fitting note to depart this thread on.
Anonymity prevails in Blog-world, I do not envy journo’s who “work” in the shadowy world of cyberspace. Probably not that different to paper journo’s to be perfectly honest.
BTW, very gracious Fink. Happy Ishtar to all the Pagans, and Easter to the rest of youse.
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
Jes & Zac
Jes, I accept what you say about their being no one harder on you than yourself if a mistake is made … I am no different…
Jes & Zac, what I need / wish / to get out there is how important as I see it this site is … a client of mine is employed by an Australian Icon company that spends a lot of coin on sports advertising and sponsorships..he is in the sports marketing department and is a very senior manager there… some weeks ago they did an in depth analysis of the Roar … it was not that good TBH seen as to much of a RU site … I was chating to him on Thursday after the Mariners lost .. it started out as a business conversation but like always when we speak sport gets a lot of talk … he tells me a few people are looking at the Roar like it is not there yet and is still perceived as a RU site but that is starting to change…
Meaning I guess, this site could potentially become much bigger than it currently is… but it has a lot of media people looking at it now and some in sports management as well… Meaning quality is very important and a quality stable of writers is important and balanced articles essential for the sites success..
Jes I hear what you say about the round ball analysis & I have his site on my favorites , but like Football in the Capital by Eammon, & Kickoff by Northern Spirit, the MV fans site (BTW IMO the best in Australia), The Football Tragic , the SBS site, … all excellent but all football sites… The Roar is a general sports site and has a wider audience in terms of many non football people read and learn about football this separates the Roar from the rest…
I have no idea if the Roar is going to be successful in the long haul of time… but there is no other independent general sports that gives football equal space and staff numbers as the Roar …. So Jes as the led writer you have a lot of responsibility as if this site continues to grow it will help football…
Midfielder said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Given it’s Saturday night and I am off now I leave you with a cut and pace job that could be sent into the Herald Sun as an AFL rusted on complaining about football … it’s actually from a university lecture in the states but very funny you should read the entire article …
LOL article whats wrong with the US ..it’s SOCCER…. Maybe one of Jes’s or SJ best could come from this… but can you imagine having this guy in the lecture room with his powerpoint and overhead…. enjoy…but he made time so he must be clever..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123680101041299201.html
By STEPHEN H. WEBB
Soccer is running America into the ground, and there is very little anyone can do about it. Social critics have long observed that we live in a therapeutic society that treats young people as if they can do no wrong. Every kid is a winner, and nobody is ever left behind, no matter how many times they watch the ball going the other way. Whether the dumbing down of America or soccer came first is hard to say, but soccer is clearly an important means by which American energy, drive and competitiveness are being undermined to the point of no return.
dasilva said | April 11th 2009 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
Jesse Fink
Did you eventually patch things up with Mike Salter?
You know that I only found out about the likes of The Football Tragic and Round Ball Analyst due to your mentioning in your blogs.
So I find it strange that you and Salter had a falling out.
Slippery Jim said | April 11th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
That’s gold Midfielder – I’m sure Redb and others will enjoy it…lucky it was satirical rather than meant seriously.
I like this quote from the authors page in wikipedia: “[Stephen H. Webb] was removed from his position as co-chairman [of the Christian Vegetarian Association, which he co-founded] in 2006 after writing several articles in which he admitted to eating meat occasionally, while promoting vegetarianism.”
jimbo said | April 12th 2009 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Happy Easter to all the football fans in the world from News Limited.
In the “Sports” section of today’s Sunday Telegraph – the dumb big brother of Daily Telegraph, there were 11 full pages on Rugby League and not one sentence, one word, one letter, one byte or one bit on Football – not a cracker.
And then there was Rebecca Wilson’s “Sports Gossip” half page and guess which sport had all the gossip – you guessed it – Rugby League.
jimbo said | April 12th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Mid,
Thanks for that article it explains everything.
If you unscramble and rearrange the letters in “Stephen H Webb Soccer is Ruining America” you get “Rebecca Wilson is a She Devil”.
In fact, the article was really written by Rebecca Wilson, who of course always gets America mixed up with Australia – they both start and end with the letter ‘a’.
Pippinu said | April 16th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
The man in the street asking about sj!!
SJ – you’ve made it!!