By Mike Tuckerman
April 9th 2009 @ 6:32am
Related coverage
Can A-League clubs ever compete with the Japanese?
A round of mixed results in the AFC Champions League will have left A-League fans scratching their heads this week. Hopes were high after Newcastle Jets held Nagoya Grampus to a credible draw at Mizuho Stadium. But with Kawasaki Frontale dishing out a footballing lesson to a stunned Central Coast Mariners, the question remains: can A-League clubs ever compete with the Japanese?
A few home truths need to be faced before A-League clubs can think about bridging the gap.
Without wishing to employ the words “technical and tactical,” Australians need to see beyond the impressive budgets and Brazilian wizardry available to many Japanese clubs and start recognising what ideas we can borrow to improve our own football.
And we should start by looking at training methods.
Is it any wonder that Kawasaki Frontale employed two converted midfielders in the form of Yusuke Mori and Kazuhiro Murakami to play as attacking wing-backs?
It’s not just because Mori and Murakami have spent most of their careers as midfielders that they looked so accomplished going forward.
Instead it’s the fact that Japanese players are drilled incessantly in the art of close control and ball skills.
And when I say drilled, I don’t mean a few training sessions a week by the time they are in their twenties.
Japanese players are considered by FIFA to be the most technically accomplished in the world at age sixteen because by that time they have been practicing ball skills for at least ten years.
The school system helps – Japanese children are used to drilling endlessly in any number of topics – and that kind of regime helps condition young footballers to put in the practice required to become a professional.
And the kind of football demanded by Japanese coaches, with players interchangeable and adept at playing any number of positions, is what encourages teams like Kawasaki Frontale to play the combination football that so embarrassed the Mariners.
Elementary mistakes don’t help, of course, and after Hiroyuki Taniguchi scored most of his ten goals last season with his head, you’d think a Central Coast defender might have picked up the little midfielder in the box.
It’s not like Lawrie McKinna even needed to watch last season’s DVD – Taniguchi scored from a header against Nagoya Grampus just last week.
Speaking of Nagoya, they looked fairly uninspired against Newcastle Jets, with Gary van Egmond’s side slightly unfortunate not to go on and win their clash at a balmy Mizuho.
I’m not sure where “Dutchy” pulled the idea that Nagoya are one of the favourites to reach the final from – personally I thought Grampus might struggle to get out of the group stage – and they were comfortably beaten by Kawasaki Frontale in the J. League last weekend.
But once again it was a Japanese player in Keiji Tamada – not the much-vaunted Davi – who did the damage against Newcastle, and the Jets were slightly fortunate that last season’s J. League Rookie Of The Year Yoshizumi Ogawa was in unusually quiet form.
All the imports in the world don’t change the fact that Nagoya’s exciting teenager Sho Hanai or Kawasaki’s one-club man Kengo Nakamura are locally produced.
Even Kawasaki’s Chong Tese is a product of the Japanese youth system. He may be a North Korean international, but the star striker was born and raised in Nagoya.
Football Australia has taken steps to redress the issue by introducing a much-needed Youth League, but it’s of little value unless Australian clubs start to implement some of the training regimes that are bringing Japanese teams so much success.
And having joked a couple of months ago to Simon Hill that I could see Kawasaki putting ten goals passed Danny Vukovic, I’m a little alarmed that my facetious prediction wasn’t that far off the mark.
It took the Socceroos thirty-two years to make a second World Cup finals appearance.
I hope it doesn’t take that long before A-League teams can compete on a consistent basis with their Japanese counterparts.
Get Australia's best Football opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(56)
Cpaaa said | April 9th 2009 @ 7:58am | Report comment
interesting views on the Japanese training systems.CCM and NCJU wont make past the group stage, for what hope do we have for our teams that finished mid table and dead last only a couple of months ago and now playing at a higher level ? this year we are there to make up numbers through a draw that even lowers the quality of the ACL
Dave said | April 9th 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Agreed that the system for selecting the HAL participants in ACL severely disadvantages the Aussie teams…would be very interested to see how MV went against Kawasaki. But that is the system we will have to live with…so we have the wooden spooners plus a team that hasnt won in 2009 representing HAL??
The Jets did very well vs Nagoya and should have won with some composed finishing so it is not total disaster. If the HAL teams are switched on and play to potential they can compete against any of the Asian club teams. Doesnt mean to say that more cannot be done…from what l gather FFA are and have put in changes and developments which will begin to turn Junior coaching/training methods around…but it is a generational change and will take 10-20 years before benefits are seen.
Also dont forget football doesnt have competition of other football codes in Japan…Rugby is barely a blip on the horizon with AFL and RL unheard of. So all their eggs are in the football basket whereas football in Oz has to share talent, time, facilities etc with 3 other codes.
As the standard of Junior coaching/training improves, as the NYL continues to develop and as football gains more prominence in Oz things will slowly change eg CCM football academy is one example.
So for a few years any HAL teams not playing at the top of their game will be well beaten by top Asian club teams but lets not throw our hands up in total despair…remedies are slowly being introduced and the situation will begin to turn around. Changes to HAL rules such as the introduction of an overseas and separate home marquees plus youth marquees and the allowance of additional signings for those in the ACL will give some immediate relief.
Eamonn said | April 9th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
yeah but no but yeah but Mike, it ain’t all rosy in Japanese football is it?
Need to compare Apples with apples…take the top 50 players including best young players out of the J-League and what level of performance would you expect.
How many of these Japanese players are whisked overseas to other clubs?
Burns, Rukavystya, Milligan, Griffith, Vidovic, Troisi, Jedinak, Djite, Beauchamp, Carle and the rest are among some of our best technically and they are no longer around to make an impact in the ACL for Aussie teams.
This may also contribute to the gap between Japan and Australia…and judging from last night’s debacle no one has followed Vidmar or Verbeeks tactics when faced with better technicians on the field. One up front:)
And the J-League maybe better than the A-League..but the national team can’t score for toffee…has never been able to score in any World Cup games of note..so before we all get on the Japan bandwagon…lovely to watch but have they ever got out of their group at the World Cup.
So great technically but can they put the ball in the net…not at national level.
The strength of the J-League….most players stay home…is perhaps the weakness of the national team.
Tom said | April 9th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
I don’t know if its the strength of the J-league that weakens the national team. I think its more the culture that Mike was talking about, of constant drills and teamwork over individual brilliance.
Great goalscorers are often mercurial rather than consistent.
Good article, though. Seeing as Japan is a bigger, wealthier and more football focussed country than Australia is, it would be something of a miracle if the A-league were ever to catch up to the J-league in our lifetimes. Not a bad long term goal to aim for, if we want to be ambitious.
Mackey said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
I think people have to start accepting the A-League for what it is and stop wishing it to rival the EPL or LA Liga after 5 seasons. The fact of the matter is that the competition is young, there hasn’t been, until recently, a recognised national football curriculum, so it’s going to take a fair while for the comp to develop.
I do believe that the clubs who invest in their backrooms as well as their playing rosters will be the teams who move forward.
You will also notice the difference between the CCM and other teams, no Marquee players and no recognised playmakers, one can’t help to think that in the upcoming season the Mariners look like sinking in an ocean of Fowlers, Millers, Hernandez’, and Culinas.
Pippinu said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Good point by Eammon – plenty have come out of the A-League the last two years and gone straight into decent European comps.
The question then becomes – is the J-League’s standard likely to keep improving such that it challenges the 2nd tier European comps in terms of quality?
Will it ever match, say, the Eredivisie or the Turkish league? (meaning that Japanese players not playing overseas becomes less of an issue for the NT)
Either way, who could ever have imagined that the Mariners would only have needed one game to match AU’s embarassing performance last year?
Vicentin said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Kawasaki were fantastic last night – and CCM were completely woeful. Regardless that many of our best young players play overseas there is still a “technical” gulf between our best and their best.
It is a work in progress but I think that a blend between strict discipline (repetition) in individual ball skills at a young age and lots of free play where kids are encouraged to be creative in small sided games is the way to go. Obviously the Japanese teams are well drilled collectively as well and the movement off the ball (like Arsenal, Villareal, and Barcelona in the latest CL round) both in an attacking and defensive sense is exceptional.
For all the talk about Jogo Bonito etc with the Brazilians – and the Japanese have recognised this by going “Brazilian” 30 years ago, there is no escaping that probably no nation works harder at their football than the Brazilians. You need to spend hours and hours with the ball every week to get that relationship with it that allows you to play like it is stuck to your foot. Even non-elite teams in Brazil understand this whereas the other night I watched a non elite junior team (under 11) spend two thirds of their once-a-week one hour (WTF) training session running around without a ball. I remember seeing some of the kids in that team a few years ago and they had potential – it’s gone and I don’t need to wonder why. Yes it is changing but it needs to be faster and more widespread before we see the sort of pool of good quality players that our junior participation rates suggest we should have.
Spankings like what CCM took last night can only be good for the local game as it will force the McKinnas and other dour, direct managers to acknowledge that what they try and sell locally just doesn’t work against decent opposition. Hell, even that thick-head Slater constantly talks “technically and tactically” and “movement off the ball” constantly these days- if it is getting through his head you’d think a lot of people would be getting it earlier! That said he won’t let go of his “attacking the ball” and “taking it to the byline” cliches … To his credit though it is good to hear the exasperation in his voice in games like last nights – he cares.
Vicentin said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Mackey, good point re playmakers. How the f@#K though did McKinna go into that game without at least Gumprecht playing? They had absolutely no one in midfielder with any creativity before he came on. Elrich added to their game too – last 10 minutes? Also, I think Mrjda is a midfielder and not a striker – don’t know if he is fit enough for the role but he has more skill than any other the current midfielders and arguably more creativity. Hard one to judge that one because the current mids can’t control the ball long enough for me to to determine if they can do anything with it.
Sammy C said | April 9th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
But Slater said we aren’t far off?
Bollocks.
Manfred the Milko said | April 9th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Eamonn .. you think the Japanese national team is weak because their players are mostly in J-League ?
They are about to go to their fourth consecutive World Cup (I think that’s what SBS reported)
The J-League is a high standard competition.
Aussie boys leave the A-League mainly cos the coaches are crap, and can’t improve the league, in turn helping their football develop.
handouts are given to Tobins and Okons who can’t coach. NYL teams, and the important developmental coaching roles that go with them, are given to Damien Brown and Craig Deans who have never coached at a level where we should allow them in the developmental system.
Japan has educated their coaches first and foremost, and their league is reaping the rewards today.
Lawrie picks plonkers and donkeys and doesn’t like foreigners … we saw the result. He bought back Kwasnik for Christ’s sake. Someone said the CCMs haven’t won a match this year … is that true ?
GVE (a crap coach) to his credit, has bought in some quality, and the Jets seem a lot better than six months ago.
We are ignorant and take Asia for granted, Eamonn is living proof. … nuff said.
Eamonn said | April 9th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Manfred..the Milko..Why do you think Japan has failed to get through a group at the World Cup apart from Japan/Korea 2002?..if they are coming from such a wonderful league with such gifted players there must be a reason.
And for the record I don’t think the J-League is “weak,” merely limited in what it produces. Look at Gamba and co in recent World Club Champs, look at the Japanese national team..it’s good in Asia..but never that good World wide.
Would Australia settle for just qualifying?
Clearly one (asyou say) as ignorant as myself wouldn’t have a clue why Japan fails to qualify from the World Cup group stage..but you should be able to enlghten me.
after three of four times of trying…and I’m not counting the home World Cup for obvious reasons..why do they underperform?
And because you are so rude…I’m going “dairy free” from now on:)
NUFCMVFC said | April 9th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Well done to Kawasaki, combined very well at times and were good to watch. Worht remembering though that CCM and Mrdja had some decent chances at times, and there was one shot cleared off the line so the Mariners could have gotten 2 or 3 themselves.
We have to remember also that they are not Championship teams playing in the ACL on A Leagues behalf and the team that has won the title often looks very different from the one playing in the ACL given issues of player retention, the Jets would do much better if they still had Bridge, Musialik etc who left as well as Joel and Adam Griffiths who are playing with their opponents, could have seen them beating Nagoya on Wednesday with those players
And CCM have struggled quite badly once Jedinak has left
Another issue you have to remember is that we were amateur a few years ago, a lot of the A League players have come through Amateur systems, it’s worth noting those systems also produced much our 2006 World Cup team including one of our best exports in Viduka, Kalac etc, and as Eamonn has noted many of the more potent ones who could trouble some of the Asian teams have either gone to Europe in terms of our youngsters like Burns and Djite who did do well in the group stage last year ()although AUFC weren’t playing a Japanese team int eh group stage) and then of course there are others like Jade North, Milligan, Griffiths brothers who are leaving for “rival” Asian teams in this sense.
A good point about drilling technical ability into the players from a young age, and the Japanese players do seem to have that edge in technical ability over many of the A League players at this time, but the impression I have got is that in the early stages of the J League it wasn’t quite the case and this ability has come from developing their youth development systems, a process which Australia is undertaking. Another issue is that you can “drill too much” to the point where they lack any kind of creativity or capacity for spontaneity. I recall Rob Baan saying of Holland is that their system is over-structured, to the point where the Eredevise has to get Brazilian players to provide the creative element, so we can’t over structure our youth system
Generally speaking, I can see the A League teams be able to be competitive a little bit, in the sense that Australia as a nation has a strong sporting mentality that has ensured we have always been competitive and punched above our weight despite not having the same level of funding as other countries, what we lack in funds we can make up the difference in this capacity, even if I am sounding a tad cliched. But it would only work well if we are fundamentally well focused, with competent technical development and we lose the tactical naivety, which you can see from time to time in A League teams shocking ability to retain possession at times
As I have said before, I think A League can be to Asia what the French and Dutch leagues are to Europe, whereas the majority of competitive teams at ACL level would be coming from the West or from Japan etc from the East, I think the A League will be able to produce a few teams like Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Lyon etc that are able to get to the latter stages on a semi regular basis despite not having the same resources as some of the bigger leagues and losing much of their players to Spain, England etc. The trick for the A League would be to have good scouting and feeder systems like the French and some smaller European leagues from Africa (think of Drogba and Ronaldinho playing in France and I think in A Leauge terms Hernandez, Lopez, Dadi, and perhaps some of SFC’s central European internationals) as well as good development systems to mix these quality imports with, add to that some returning Socceroos who have had accomplished careers in Europe and bring good experience – someone like Viduka and Craig Moore and in the future Josh Kennedy could perform potently at A League and ACL level – then we can have the capacity to be quite competitive
Art Sapphire said | April 9th 2009 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Eamonn, I can tell you why Japan underperforms in the World Cup. They don’t produce world class strikers.
Eamonn said | April 9th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Art thanks mate…thought with a brilliant domestic leauge, loads of resources and technically wonderful players they were way ahead of us…seems not!
Robbos said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Eamonn,
he said ‘they don’t produce world class strikers’ and I would also add they are not as mentally tough as say the Aussies.
We in Australia have great attributes, we have same great athletes, we have a very displine well drilled side, especially the socceroos who are all very highly paid professionals.
But what most of the other posters are saying is that we do not develop many highly skill technical players, the coaching here in Australia has more an emphasis on stamina & phyiscal dominance instead of technical players who are able to move the ball around.
Look at all those players you mentioned in a previous post, how many of these players are playing for the socceroos or in one of the top Leagues of the world. Most of the top young players from Brazil, Spain, Argentina are all playing for the big teams. We have the natural attributes, now we need the players to spend more time with the ball & the only way is a whole revamp of our coaches & coaching system.
If the Aussie players can get to be as technically proficent as the Japanese, we have the other attributes, strong mentally, phyiscal height & strenght & highly discipline to compete quite adequately with the rest of the world.
Art Sapphire said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Eamonn – you can also apply the lack of world class strikers observation to South Korea as well. For all their wonderful build up play the Koreans and Japanese struggle in front of goal. Thats why you don’t see any of their strikers playing for the really big clubs in Europe.
The Japanese already know that their fellow countrymen suck in front of goal. They have to import all their strikers from Brazil for their domestic competition.
Top Scorers J-League
2008
Marquinhos Kashima Antlers 21 Brazil
Davi Consadole Sapporo 16 Brazil
Chong Tese Kawasaki Frontale 14 North Korea
Atsushi Yanagisawa Kyoto Sanga 14 Japan
Alessandro Albirex Niigata 13 Brazil
2007
Juninho Kawasaki Frontale 22 Brazil
Bare Gamba Osaka 20 Brazil
Edmilson Albirex Niigata Brazil
Ueslei Sanfrecce Hiroshima 17 Brazil
Washington Urawa Red Diamonds 16 Brazil
Leandro Vissel Kobe 15 Brazil
ohtani's jacket said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Japan can’t hit home runs either. Didn’t stop them from winning the World Baseball Classic.
I live near a sports school where kids practice football all day, every day… and at all hours of the day. It’s incessant. In actual fact, they’re training to make up for their shortcomings, or perceived shortcomings, but I can’t see the type of training regimes Japan employs ever flying in Australia.
Japan is a country where, after school, most kids attend cram school. It’s not unsual for them to get home at 9, 10, 11pm. It’s not the way I grew up.
Timmo from Adelaide said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
yeah it wasn’t a good performance by the Mariners but as a football fan it was an absolute pleasure to watch Kawasaki Frontale play last night. The way they pass the ball from left to right, right to left, their crosses into the box, combination of short and long passes was fantastic and in a way football should be played.
With regard to ACL representative this problem will probably rectify itself within the next two years. I wonder how many Adelaide United and Melbourne Victory supporters will complain that their ACL campaigns will begin during the A-League Finals series since we will have a 27-game season and the Final Series is in March? Possibly 33 after that? So the waiting time between ACL quailfication to playing group stages will be shorter.
Secondly the salary cap maybe an issue but I’m sure this is for players. Coaching Staff doesn’t come under the salary cap so what are teams like Melbourne Victory doing with their profits to enhance and hire and invest in foreign coaches to develop technical and tactical play. With the salary cap do we need all A-League clubs to operate on a $20 million dollar budget to compete? We can pay what the game in Australia can generate and so clubs don’t go broke. If we do have one or two super financial clubs would other supporters of A-league clubs bother to show up knowing from the beginning you have absolutely no chance of winning the league? Maybe the $20 million dollar budget for player payments is far-fetch but to increase the cap ticket prices and prices for season tickets and tickets in general will go up so are we as football supporters and especially curious half-interested fans going to fork out that money?
Do we see in the near future clubs operating on a player payment budget of lets say between $5-10 million dollars a year. Would this be reasonable in Australia? Television rights would have a big say on this.
Lastly I guess until the FFA work out how many teams will be in the A-League? How will a NATIONAL second division promotion/relegation system work? How we bridge the gap between A-League and various State league bodies can we work at the monetary system of a fair player payment system. Then we can look to bridge the gap of the Japanese J-League.
Art Sapphire said | April 9th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
ohtani – you don’t have to hit the ball out of the park to score in baseball.
Sammy C said | April 9th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Some would see alot of our quality A League strikers hit the ball out of the park moreso than into the back of the net?
Redb said | April 9th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Watched a bit of this last night, Kawasaki had too many gears CCM looked in neutral. Some of the diving by the Japanese players was pathetic, what a bunch of sooks and the crowd let them know it.
Redb
Dave said | April 9th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Agreed with Timmo’s first paragraph in particular.
So final word on this from me and there is no doubt plenty of work needs to be done in bringing local Aussie players/coaches up to the international standards in technique, tactical awareness etc but…dont link all of HAL with one poor (extremely poor) performance by a team that hasnt won a single game in 2009. Every team has their off days/nights just look at some of the hammerings received in Europe lately by teams with much better players and infinitely more resources…for example Bayern Munich 5-1 on the weekend followed by 4-0 this morning! Totally outclassed now do we need to ask will German clubs ever compete with Spanish clubs?
BTW l think the Bundesliga is currently the most exciting and even in Europe.
Ryan Steele said | April 9th 2009 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
A lot needs to be changed in the Australian football environment. The FFA is obviously taking those steps, but they can’t achieve everything. The biggest hurdle will be the schools, which is where most kids will find and start learning their favourite sport. The problem with this is that the people coaching the young teams are typically volunteer parents, and may not have the qualifications or knowledge required to help develop the childrens’ fundamentals. Not every potential Tim Cahill or Harry Kewell will have parents who will find them a local club’s youth team.
I’ve been to several training sessions at Japanese schools, and even lived near a school for some time. They definitely teach touch first and foremost. There is a little less emphasis on finishing and defence, in these sessions, which would be the reason you don’t see Japanese players as “world-class strikers,” but Japanese football relies on its midfield and passing game, due to its influences.
The “golden boot” argument isn’t a very strong one, either, considering the majority of golden boot winners around the world are not locals of the countries in which they play. Also, for two out of three of last year’s top five scorers to be home grown isn’t too bad.
ohtani's jacket said | April 9th 2009 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
AS, you don’t need to strike the ball to score in soccer.
jimbo said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
Results have been mixed for A vs J-League.
AU were easily better than Kashima Antlers – if they met them in the final instead of the QF we would be singing the A-League’s praises. But look how bad they were against the Gambas.
Jets dominated the Jap Grandpas away in Japan, while the Mariners . . . well, sorry Mid, but that was the worst of the lot.
midfield general said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
I would add, as a person of Japanese origin, there is something fragile in Japanese psyche – kids are brought up with fear of failure and `saving face’ as primary motivation for their achievement. They don’t seem to have genuine self-belief, and nothing illustrated this better than their capitulation to Australia in WC 2006. You’d think Brazilian coaching and Japanese aptitude for hard work will be a winning combination, but this hasn’t translated to any notable result beyond Asia.
Even the Euro Socceroos are technically inferior to the Japanese, but we have hard cases like Neill, Moore and Grella who thrive in cut-throat EPL and know how to win games. Wow, this forum is going off the tangent, but it just shows what a great game football is.
ohtani's jacket said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
They didn’t know what they were getting into in 2006. I was in a bar for that game and I told people “watch this, Australia are gonna win the game.” I don’t think they understand it to this very day.
jimbo said | April 9th 2009 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Yes, Japan completely dominated in the Socceroos WC Qualifier game in Japan recently and should have won 2 or 3 nil but just didn’t seem to have that killer instinct to finish us off.
I’m sure if the Socceroos dominate like that in the Melb game in June, they will make sure they score one way or the other.
Midfielder said | April 9th 2009 @ 11:06pm | Report comment
Hi Guys
Ben a big day for me just in… say a pray for managed to get to present to a massively big client today … hopefully will get called back in a couple of weeks for more talks… just mega size client for a practice of my size to pull…
But to the game … Gee Wizz went there with so much hope and sat in disbelief…we got smashed but first 3 goals were very soft on our behalf… just very poor defending like we have been doing all year … but we did not hold shape and our finishing in front of goals was pathetic to say the least…
IMO only Grumps/ Eleich & Shuke could walk off the field with there reputations not harmed… Elrich was a a class above most on the park and I hope his knee gets better soon it was still heavily bandaged last night but when he came on we started to threaten down the right side instead of conceding heaps of space down there.
Mike it’s in degrees because by God we created enough chances last night just could not finish them… we are closer than most thing … however it was nice to see a team just play with shape and style and attack all night… BTW the Japanese sides we have played are not as much into diving as other countries in Asia and I found that aspect of their play quite pleasing they played tough not fall over each time they got touched.
BTW a youtube of LM at half time you might enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4×05Z3MSkQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmarinators.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D3428.200&feature=player_embedded
Mike Tuckerman said | April 10th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Midfielder – how different things may have been had Nik Mrdja put away that good early chance.
Albert Ross said | April 10th 2009 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Pip opined Either way, who could ever have imagined that the Mariners would only have needed one game to match AU’s embarassing performance last year?
Can anyone please explain what one earth he meant by that. Or is it some Escriváist love bomb?
Midfielder said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Mike
We missed four goals of which two where sitters and two where great saves, plus so a number of times we could not even get a shot on.
Our back four near an organiser and talker, Bozza was great at this when he was there…
Maybe it’s the coaching, maybe our best are overseas, maybe it’s skill , but what I noticed is when we had the ball they had the confidence to push hard on us and keep us under pressure .. we on the other hand held off watching and trying to close down space , when they had the ball, but by hanging off made space for them to pass into and run at. At it’s simplest this was the huge difference in the two teams.
Papa Smurf said | April 10th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Midfielder,
It was just a simple case of the Mariners ending up with a tummy ache … After a sweet trip to a candy shop, which ended up … them going down on the good ship lollipop …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_RZTusUzM8
~~~~~~~~
KB
Ryan Steele said | April 10th 2009 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Jimbo, let’s not forget that Adelaide were within centimetres of beating Gamba Osaka, at the Club World Cup. One defensive error was the difference.
Midfielder said | April 10th 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Papa
Once again I will play you LM half time speech it is worth watching for motivation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4×05Z3MSkQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmarinators.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D3428.200&feature=player_embedded
BTW hope the hands are better …. Can see Man U … winning the Champions league against the dark blue Smurfs
Art Sapphire said | April 10th 2009 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Ryan – My “golden boot” argument actually is quite a strong one. To have 6 Brazilians top the scoring in 2007 in the J-League is a savage indictment on the lack of strike power in Japan. Especially, if you consider that the best Japanese stikers only play in the J-League. The only decent half decent Japanese forward who ever made a bit of a name for himself overseas was Takahara in Germany.
Ohtani – If pedantry could score goals you would be deadly in front of goal : )
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Albert ross
Adelaide United lost 5-0 in aggregate over two legs
Mariners only needed one game and lost 5-0 over just one match.
Mike Tuckerman said | April 10th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Art Sapphire – I’m not sure that Yasuhiko Okudera would agree with the statement that “(t)he only decent half decent Japanese forward who ever made a bit of a name for himself overseas was Takahara in Germany.”
Not only was Okudera the first ever Asian player to score in the European Cup when he did so for 1. FC Köln against Nottingham Forest in the 1979 semi-final first-leg, but he also managed a decent return of 34 Bundesliga goals in a German career spanning a decade – long before the Japanese game was ever professionalised.
As for having so-and-so many Brazilians in a top-scoring chart being a “savage indictment” – again, it bears scratching the surface. Most playmakers in Japan are Japanese. Last year Yoshito Okubo (now at VfL Wolfsburg) and Yoshizumi Ogawa scored 11 league goals, as did Marcus Tulio Tanaka – while Minoru Suganuma, Hiroyuki Taniguchi and Shinji Okazaki chimed in with 10.
Only one of those players is an out-and-out striker (Okazaki) and that’s not to mention that fact that fellow strikers Atsushi Yanagisawa scored 14 league goals and Shingo Akamine 12 goals themselves.
The idea that Japanese players can’t score goals is a myth (they clearly can), as is the fallacy that Japanese players don’t play in Europe (Nakamura, Okubo, Hasebe, Honda, Ono, Morimoto, Matsui et. al. suggest as much).
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:14pm | Report comment
Mike
It seems strange going on about they have scored goals. Haven’t you wrote in your blog before about lack of good strikers in japan due to cultural reasons (fear of losing face).
Mike Tuckerman said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
dasilva – that issue was an explanation of why J. League clubs prefer Brazilian strikers. I have never suggested there’s a lack of “good strikers” in Japan.
It’s not an issue that I care that much about, but when I see Australian fans consistently suggesting that a) Japanese players don’t play in Europe, and b) that Japanese players can’t score goals, I find it’s just as easy to let the facts speak for themselves.
dasilva said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Fair enough Mike
I guess you can’t really say Japan doesn’t produce good strikers or can’t score goals. It’s just that they do produce better midfielder then they do strikers. Australia generally don’t produce too many well class playmakers to the levels of a Nakamura or an Endo. Japan doesn’t seem to produce strikers to the qualities of let say a Viduka or Scott McDonald (even if they don’t really show that at international levels).
Mike Tuckerman said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
Absolutely dasilva.
Imagine a team combining Japan’s wonderful playmaking abilities with Australia’s mental fortitude and imposing physique. They’d be a force to be reckoned with, I dare say!
Eamonn said | April 10th 2009 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
Not sure anyone suggests Mike that Japanese players don’t play in Europe..merely they don’t play in the numbers required to produce a team better than the J-League can produce. Any evidence this is changing?
Australia has…what 150 playing in Europe, still not one in the last 16 of the Champions League, but out of that lot we get a few into the main leagues. Maybe with the strength of theJ-League the Japanese don’t need as many but they need more if they are to go to another level.
As for Japanese scoring goals…evidence suggests otherwise….they can’t, not really, not yet, not outside of Asia, in the World Cup where it counts. Look at the last World Cup and the one in France…even the one in Japan…if they could score they would have progressed much further in all tournaments…they created a million chances were a joy to watch but embarrasing in front of goal….everytime.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 11th 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
One interesting point that is that we are often comparing apples and oranges. The average Japanese pupil is brought up in a very different cultural system to that of an Australian pupil. Japanese students have a far greater cultural tolerance of drills and working on detail. Australian students have a far greater cultural tolerance for failing, and hence experimenting and succeeding. In short there will have to be different approaches to reach the same result.
I believe that we will match the Japanese in the end, however they have a good decade’s head start so for the next ten years I’m expecting us to compete well, have the occasional victory, however on balance be on the receiving end at club level. Regardless of the results I’m already enjoying the ride.
Adelaide v Shimizu S-Pulse; you think we organize a friendly?
peter_ga said | April 13th 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Yes, A-league clubs have competed with J-league clubs, starting with sydney fc getting home and away draws to urawa.
Japan is a country with a large compact rich population. Given these factors, and the premier position of soccer in their country, their league should be a first level competition instead of closer to a third level competition like the A-league.
We should look to countries like Holland, Portugal, even Croatia, for our foreign models.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 13th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Peter-ga, don’t underestimate the power of baseball in Japan. Football is still a distant second to baseball however the fact that the Blue Samurai can take on the world whereas the baseball side cannot is a powerful force for promoting the World Game. I know many, many Japanese who can’t even name all the teams in the J-League yet will fly halfway round the world to watch the Blue Samurai in action. As more youths move towards football I expect Japanese football to continue to move forward.
What Mike is talking about is our need to reach the level of the Japanese and the gaps that exist between the domestic competitions. The paths may be different however the benchmarks are quite similar. Hence Japan provides a very good meter as to the development of domestic football in Australia, and let’s face it, they are direct competitors at club level and hence comparisons are valid.
jimbo said | April 13th 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
More like modelling ourselves on the Dutch – a defensive Dutch team palying a long way from home and playing for a nil nil draw.
Sack Pimbo now before its too late!
Midfielder said | April 13th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Ben
Baseball over 40’s game … football under 40’s game … any truth to this sometimes thrown about line for Japan and sport.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 13th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
There is some truth to the adage, Midfielder. Certainly the older generation (50’s and above) are almost universally baseball supporters however in the under 50 bracket you see many more football supporters. That said there are no shortage of kids pitching baseballs in the parks of Tokyo so I’d say the younger crowd is more of a mix between the two.
What I find odd is how Nagasaki is so strong at school level football yet has no J-1 or J-2 side (V-Varen Nagasaki are trying to break into J-2). Certainly the game is growing in Japan though Mike has a far better understanding as to how this is happening as most of my knowledge is a result of drinking too much Yebisu with Japanese football fans in my old haunt of Nippori.
ohtani's jacket said | April 13th 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
In Japan you’ve got the unique situation where highschool baseball is almost as important as pro-baseball, so the participation numbers are still high. A lot of young males are attracted to football — and not only Japanese football, but world football — but young people are a smaller demographic than older, staunch baseball fans. One thing I’ll say for football in Japan is that the administrators have been extremely successful at making it anything more than a fad. It’s unlikely that they’ll ever catch baseball, but they’re firmly entrenched as number two. Of course the goal was to overtake baseball. If you judge it by that standard, they failed rather miserably in the wake of WC 2002, but still I think they’ve done exceptionally well.
David V. said | April 13th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
I’m assuming the two sports coexist nicely in Japan.
The Japanese are notoriously poor both in goal and in front of goal, but their creative ball-playing talent would put many countries to shame and is the equal of many European and South American countries in this department. You can find good creative Japanese talent even in the weaker sides, even in J2.
clayton said | April 13th 2009 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
we already compete with the j-league clubs. so far the tally is a 2 leg win over kashima, 5 losses (including victory`s losses) against gamba, a draw against grampus and a loss against frontale. apologies for any mistakes in my tally.
none of these games has been a 10 goal Andorra vs Spain type game … in the euro qualifiers you will see some teams that simply cannot compete and shouldn`t be there. but thats not us. we have a professional league. our players get scouted and recruited by teams from other leagues.
maybe people have different definitions of the word “compete”, cos I`d say we are competing right now. equal to? no. on top of. no. but competing with? yes.
zachary said | April 19th 2009 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
the Japanese league is a promotion/relegation system with no sallery caps so all the tallent is in the top one or two teams (the tip of the sword)
becouse of the sallery cap all the tallent in the A-league is spread out across ten teams! (blunt stick)
there like ten men in the ocean who cant swim and are dragging each other down.
i`d like to see the top teams in the state leagues compete in asia, i think they would do a better job
Mike Tuckerman said | April 19th 2009 @ 10:23pm | Report comment
zachary – four different clubs have won the J. League in the past five seasons, and a total of five different clubs have lifted the title since 2000.
AKITOD said | July 8th 2009 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
Mike I was wondering where the quote/stat came from where FIFA says Japanese children are the best techically in the world at 16?
Mike Tuckerman said | August 11th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
A FIFA official mentioned it to me at the Club World Cup in Yokohama in 2008.