By pothale -
April 16th 2009 @ 4:14am
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Guess what Geech is thinking with the Lions
In five days time, the Lions management team, led by head coach, Ian McGeechan, will announce the squad that will travel to South Africa in late May. 35 players will be announced.
Apparently, there’s a chance that an extra player, for a squad of 36, may be added.
So here’s a little tipping comp for you all.
Rather than give a selection of players who you think will travel or would like to travel, or you absolutely insist must travel, you’ve got to step inside Geech’s mind (and by mental teleportation Edwards, Gatland et al) and say who you think they will pick.
So no personal favourites, no “if I was picking the team.” Just stick with what you believe the Geech thinks.
We can do this in two stages.
First is guess the squad, and before the first midweek team is announced, we can reprise this to make your picks for that.
Ditto the test team.
2 points are awarded for each correct name. Put in your 35, and nominate an extra one in case it’s 36. You won’t lose points if it’s only 35 players they go with, or if your 36th man is part of a 35-man squad.
A bonus five pointer if you guess the tour captain correctly, who will be announced on the same day. For clarity’s sake, I don’t mean the midweek-team captain, or leader of the pack.
So on a 35 man squad, if someone gets all names correct, and the name of the captain, the max points they’ll have after the Squad Round is 75 points (77, if it’s a 36 man squad).
The most points at the end of the competition gets bragging rights until the Tri-Nations. After that, you can shut-up and bottom-feed like the rest of us.
So for our Southern Hemisphere neighbours who mightn’t be as familiar with some of the possible names for inclusion, here’s a selection from whom the 35/36 might be picked.
But there are other names out there, so feel free to pick who you want.
Some of the players can fill a number of positions, so you just have to name the players at this point.
Gents, get your starting Geech caps on.
FBs
Lee Byrne (Wal), Delon Armitage (Eng); Rob Kearney (Irl), Geordan Murphy (Irl)
Wingers
Tommy Bowe, (Ireland), Shane Williams (Wales), Thom Evans (Scotland), Luke Fitzgerald,(Irl) Mark Cueto (Eng) Paul Sackey (Eng) Leigh Halpenny (Wal) Josh Lewsey, (Eng) Ugo Monye (Eng) David Strettle (Eng)
Centres
Brian O’Driscoll (Irl), Tom Shanklin (Wal), Riki Flutey (NZ), Jamie Roberts (Wal); Keith Earls (Irl) Jordan Turner-Hall (Eng) Gordon Darcy (Irl) Mike Tindall (Eng)
10s
Stephen Jones (Wal), Ronan O’Gara (Irl), Danny Cipriani (Eng), Toby Flood (Eng)
Scrum-halves
Dwayne Peel, (Wal) Mike Phillips (Wal), Tomas O’Leary (Irl) Mike Blair (Scot) Danny Care (Eng) Harry Ellis (Eng)
Front Rowers
Gethin Jenkins (Wal), Jerry Flannery (Irl), Rory Best (Irl), Euan Murray (Scot), John Hayes (Ire), Phil Vickery (Eng), Ross Ford (Scot), Lee Mears (Eng) A Sheridan (Eng)
Locks:
Paul O’Connell (Ireland), Nathan Hines (Scotland), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Donncha O’Callaghan (Irl), Simon Shaw (Eng), Nick Kennedy (Eng), Leo Cullen (Irl)
Back Rowers:
David Wallace (Irl), Martyn Williams (Wal), Robshaw (Eng) Stephen Ferris (Irl), Joe Worsley (Eng), Tom Croft (Eng), Jamie Heaslip (Irl) Ryan Jones (Wal) Ian Gough (Wal) James Haskell (Eng)
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Knives Out said | April 16th 2009 @ 5:26am | Report comment
Hopefully he’s not thinking about bringing any Wasps players..
It seems to have escaped the media that the two teams who have drastically underperformed this year are.. (drum roll).. London Wasps and Wales, who are coached by.. (drum roll).. Ian McGeechan, Shaun Edwards and Warren Gatland, who are.. (drum roll).. the three head honchos on this coming tour.
Pothale, I think the majority of the squad will pick itself. Unlike pre-05 Lions there are a lot of test players in form. Unless McGeechan decides to pick his buddies from Wasps then there’s only the occasional position that should raise debate. I don’t think Leo Cullen and JTH will be up for selection, however. The only real areas that are lacking quality, IMO, are the wing position and 10. The rest will simply come down to tour tactics and compromise. Anyway, I’ll give this crazy game a go. Here’s what I suspect that ‘Geech will go for, and not my own particular choices (I think there’s 36/37 – not sure how many 10s or locks he’ll bring. In 1997 he only brought two and three respectively.):
15. Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney
14. Mark Cueto, Tommy Bowe, D. Armitage
13. Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Mike Tindall
12. Jamie Roberts, Riki Flutey
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Jonny Wilkinson, Ronan O’Gara, Danny Cipriani
09. Dwayne Peel, Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips
08. Nick Easter, Ryan Jones
07. Joe Worsley, David Wallace, Martyn Williams
06. Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris
05. Alun Wyn Jones
04. Paul O’Connell, Nathan Hines, Simon Shaw
03. Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
02. Jerry Flannery, Rory Best, Lee Mears
01. Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
Knives Out said | April 16th 2009 @ 5:31am | Report comment
Actually, I’m not sure he’d bring two similar no. 8’s. I’d expect him to have a quicker player to counter Spies/Kankowski, so either Heaslip or Powell and Jones or Easter. I suspect that it will be Heaslip and Jones if Gatland gets his way.
pothale said | April 16th 2009 @ 6:22am | Report comment
So I’ll go with your numbered selection or do you wanna change it, KO? I’m not gonna go wading through posts figuring out who’s changed what.
If people want to put in selections, can they put in the full squads rather than just say I’d change X for Y, etc, etc. I ain’t wading through text/copy to pick out a single name.
KO, I love the phrase, ‘the squad will pick itself’. I can see it now on April 21, as a series of press releases roll out from individual players –
“I know I’m injured, and I haven’t played in a while, but I figured I’d give it a go: – Lewis Moody
“Actually I’m sick of playing scrum half, so I’ve picked myself in the second row to keep Paulie company” – P Stringer
“I’d picked myself months ago, but I had to wait for the glow tan to dry off before announcing it.” G Henson
“I always wanted to go to South Africa, before I headed off to France, so I picked myself. What exactly is a Lion anyway?” – R. Flutey
Knives Out said | April 16th 2009 @ 6:58am | Report comment
Crumbs, so many choices… Will McGeechan go for the lineout threat of Kennedy or the ballast of Shaw? Will Gatland enforce the selection of Jones? Oh well, I’ll go for my original selection minus Nick Easter, plus Jamie Heaslip. I’m, pretty sure I have too many players anyhow.
pothale said | April 16th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Ok – here’s my thoughts – for today anyway.
Backs (16)
Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney
S Williams, Tommy Bowe, D. Armitage, Luke Fitzgerald
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Keith Earls
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Danny Care
Forwards: (19)
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Ryan Jones, Stephen Ferris
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell, Nathan Hines, Nick Kennedy
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Rory Best, Lee Mears, Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
Extra 36th Man: Jonny Wilkinson
Paul O’Connell as captain.
Knives Out said | April 16th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
I’d like to see Andy Powell travel, and Nick Easter too. He played club rugby in SA for a period, and he showed up very well on the ‘painters and decorators’ tour. I think you should brace yourself for the Wasps influx, I wouldn’t be surprised to see as many as: Payne, Shaw, Worsley, Haskell, Rees, Cipriani and Lewsey. I note you’ve left out Croft. If he doesn’t tour then I isn’t watching.
Untimelyzapped said | April 16th 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
All hail, Potso, an excellent post and a real mind tickler. You and KO have the advantage over us rubes here in Oz and NZ because most of us are stuck with watching the NH talent on TV, and you two guys can see what makes many of these players exceptional in person. So I for one am forced to consider many of the people you name based solely on what I’ve seen of them electronically in the 6N and the games against the three SH teams.
You gave us a choice of 58 possibles, which means if they take 36, then 22 don’t get to go.
Trouble is, there has to be enough representation from all four countries so that none of their unions/fans howl. That’s the hardest part, and the reason why the starting 15 in the first test won’t be the best the Lions could field.
I wish I could follow your most explicit instructions, but I can’t. Everytime I choose 22 not to make it, I get a big national imbalance.
But I can draw an historical parallel on what I suspect is in store for the Brave Thirty-seven. And for that we must put to sea and go back to 1905 when the Russian fleet sailed 18,000 miles to take on the Japanese in their squabble over Manchuria.
All the Japanese had to do was wait and oil their guns, while the Russians had a miserable trip full of wrong turns and rotten navigation (read questionable coaching). When they finally made it to the Tsushima Straits, the Russians literally blew them out of the water.
Will the Boks force the Lions to eat tsushima? Probably.
Stu James said | April 16th 2009 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Backs (16):
Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney
Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, Delon Armitage, Luke Fitzgerald
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Riki Flutey, Darcy
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones, Toby Flood
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis
Forwards (19):
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Ryan Jones, Haskill
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell, Donncha O’Callaghan, Nick Kennedy
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, Rory Best, Gethin Jenkins, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Ross Ford, Matthew Rees
Extra 36th Man: Keith Earls
Paul O’Connell as captain.
Stu James said | April 16th 2009 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
Either way you look at it, the Lions are going to get dusted by the Meateaters.
Knives Out said | April 17th 2009 @ 1:17am | Report comment
I’m sure some equally gifted people said that in 1997, Stu. Let’s see the squad first.
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2009 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Let’s set the mood with some classic Telfer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc3S6iGmUjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pHqw4XZhPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwYUZXzjKr0
pothale said | April 17th 2009 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Thanks OJ. So you gonna put up your selection?
Dublin Dave said | April 17th 2009 @ 11:22pm | Report comment
I think there will be rather more English, and in particular Wasps, players on the Lions squad than some might think. And I think McGeechan will have sound reasons for doing so. It all depends on what he considers to be the purpose of the Lions.
Is the main goal to win a test series in South Africa? Or to be a sort of All Stars gallery for players who have done well with their club, province or national side this season?
Is it a vote of confidence in each player that they can do a job for the team or a recognition of what they have done elsewhere?
Is it an endorsement of a player’s potential or a reward for services already rendered?
Perhaps this may sound strange to a Southern Hemisphere audience where there is no notion of the team having any other purpose than winning, but the Lions is a different concept. No matter how “British” three of the four constituent teams, and a significant minority of the fourth, may be, there is no doubt that in rugby terms their first and foremost loyalty is to their own individual country. The Lions concept survives as the ultimate accolade that a player can earn, elevation with his peers to a higher level in recognition of his achievements. In the individual countries, people take pride that one of their own is good enough to rank alongside or even ahead of the best in the other countries against whom he plays regularly.
Taken on that level, there is no doubt that this Lions team should be top heavy with Irish players. Ireland have won the Grand Slam. An Irish province is the reigning European Heineken Cup champion. Another is the reigning Magners League Champion. This year, there will be one Irish province guaranteed to be in the final, where they will play either Cardiff or Leicester. The Magners League is all but mathematically decided in favour of Munster. There is a hard core of Irish players with solid experience of at least one and sometimes two Lions tours.
But would filling the Lions full of Irish players guarantee a successful tour? And if it would not, should McGeechan pick then anyway on the grounds that they deserve it because of what they’ve done this season? That is one of the key decisions that he will have to make.
Take a look at the schedule between now and the tour. The Heineken Cup semifinals take place on May 2nd and 3rd. In those two matches, 19 of the 23 Irish players who made up the national squad for at least one of the five Grand Slam tests this season will do battle: 18 of them in Croke Park where Munster take on Leinster. It is only four years since Munster memorably turned over their posher rivals at the same stage in Lansdowne Road. And Croke Park is pretty much bang on the site where in 1014, a mere 995 years ago, the hairy arsed savages from the kingdom of Thomond defeated the relatively sophisticated urban Norsemen of Leinster at the Battle of Clontarf. (plus ca change?) Oh boy, are they owed a good kicking!!!
If the winners of that match were to progress on to taking the HC in Murrayfield on May 25th it would cap the most remarkable Irish rugby season ever. But given that the Lions tour opens a mere five days later against an ominously named High Veldt XV in Rustenberg, what sort of state, mental as well as physical, would those players be in to meet that challenge?
No matter how good a player is there is only so much mental and physical capacity they have before breakdown. It happens to the best of players and sometimes a little rest does no harm at all. Compare and contrast, for example, the jaded crocked Lawrence Dallaglio that hobbled his way through the Lions tour to Australia in 2001 to the derision of the Usual Suspects in the Australian media with the Collossus who was the heartbeat of the English pack that stormed to the Grand Slam and World Cup a mere two seasons later. A year’s lay off did him a power of good.
Were McGeechan to calculate that whatever their achievements in the season so far the Irish players just may not have enough left in the tank to shoulder the lion’s (small l) share of the burden then he would be within his rights to leave many of them off. I suspect for example that the likes of Simon Shaw and Danny Cipriani, both of whom are at Wasps, will make the squad, the former for his combination of huge experience and relatively low mileage on the clock this season; and the latter as an unpolished diamond who could shine in the company of the cream of British and Irish rugby.
Regardless, it would seem that Ireland will have a good representation on this tour. But despite the howls of protest that will ensue, I think it should be a maximum of 10 players. The likes of John Hayes, David Wallace and possible even (whisper it) Brian O’Driscoll could do with a rest.
Knives Out said | April 17th 2009 @ 11:29pm | Report comment
Dublin Dave, how far can the ‘fatigue theory’ be taken this time? The English players have played under the EPS agreement and the Welsh and Irish (although you would know to what extent) players will have been rested during the ML. How many top tier games have the Celtic players played this season?
ohtani's jacket said | April 18th 2009 @ 12:34am | Report comment
Pothale, I don’t watch enough European rugby to give you a selection, but I am interested in McGeechan’s tactics for this tour. I have no idea what sort of Lions side will show up or whether the Springboks will be any good, but I imagine they’ll look to smash each other in the forwards and the Boks will play a more traditional style of South African rugby.
We won’t know until the first Test,so I’ll reserve my judgement until then.
ohtani's jacket said | April 18th 2009 @ 12:36am | Report comment
I assume it’s being played without the free kick sanctions??
pothale said | April 18th 2009 @ 3:50am | Report comment
Yep. Only S14 and 3 Nations have the derogation on using the free-kick sanctions. It’ll be played under the Global Trial ELVs.
pothale said | April 18th 2009 @ 4:05am | Report comment
Ps – OJ – give it a go. Am surprised by the supposed lack of knowledge of the squad players from England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland. I’ve seen plenty of commentary on individual NH players by people. Do people reallly know that little about NH rugby and players? – thought people were better informed than that.
Looks like it’ll be a small tipping competition. Even Dublin Dave can’t seem to rouse himself despite an interesting take on what might inform McGeechan’s selection thinking.
Knives Out said | April 18th 2009 @ 4:20am | Report comment
Pothale, first to criticise, last to watch. Unfortunately the south lives on a staple diet of stereotypes and inflated opinion. Ohtani is willing to admit that his rugby interest/knowledge doesn’t stretch to European rugby. Other roarers are far more contrived.
What will inform McGeechan’s thinking:
i. Personality of potential tourists.
ii. SA’s weakness in the scrummage.
iii. SA’s strength in the air.
iv. What tactics SA will likely employ.
pothale said | April 18th 2009 @ 5:38am | Report comment
Harumph. Tipping competition over then, I suppose.
ohtani's jacket said | April 18th 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
I only watch the Test matches and rarely watch club rugby. I don’t think you can chose a Lions squad by picking the best Test players. You have to think outside the box and I don’t have the knowledge to do that.
pothale said | April 18th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
OJ – relax. The comments about lack of knowledge weren’t directed at you since you made clear that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of the players.
It’ll be interesting to see what informed commentary or number of posts we get from people once the Lions series starts – presumably only one or two it would seem.
Knives Out said | April 18th 2009 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
“Ooh strewth, you Poms know nothing about rugby, that’s why you got rid of the bloody ELVs.” There’s a template for you, Pothale.
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 2:41am | Report comment
I’m going to add Halfpenny to my squad. Not sure in place of who. I’ll need to think on it.
pothale said | April 19th 2009 @ 3:07am | Report comment
Funny you should say that, KO. After watching EDF final today, I might, finally, just a little but, have a grudging respect for the Blues. Glaws were shite, but the Blues looked very good value for money. On this performance, they’ll make the H Cup Final. At might even win it.
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 3:22am | Report comment
They did look good today. V. good infact. They had the luck of the bounce on the odd occasion, and I think Gloucester are woeful but praise where praise is due. The Blues looked excellent. They bashed Gloucester at the breakdown and their backs looked so much more incisive than they have in the ML.
At this point in time Dean Ryan can’t have much rope left with which to hang himself. He’s had all that time, all that money, the huge squad, international players and yet.. He has to go. I found it amusing that Gareth Delve would pledge support to Ryan post-match when as soon as the Blues had beaten Gloucester in the HC Ryan was the first to criticise his players and suggest that some would be moving on. I also found it amusing that prior to the main event Moseley beat Leeds Tykes with a certain Jack Adams playing for Moseley. As I recall, in 2006 Adams, Allen and Lamb were the young Gloucester glamour boys and now look at them. None of them have improved whatsoever and Gloucester are in the same position now as they were then. It’s for reasons like this that I have such an agenda against the rugby press. Not that long ago Stephen Jones – the same man who persistently moans about style over substance – asserted that Ryan simply had to be the next England head coach, when it was/is plain to all that he has created nothing firm, nothing valid at Gloucester and had instead stunted the careers of some very promising players.
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 3:34am | Report comment
He had this to say after the final as well:
“We deserve credit for reaching finals year-in, year-out but I don’t want to keep losing them.”
What that means is “I deserve credit.” BUT…
“You have got to recognise when the learning process is over and I think everyone at this club is at that point.
“We will look at taking the club in a different direction with a different group of people in the next year. We must address the problem with recruitment.
“It’s no accident that some of this squad haven’t gone on to become internationals and it’s no accident we don’t have five or six Lions contenders.”
What an absolute disgrace. I’m disgusted.
“I fear for this industry – it’s constantly about the jobs of directors of rugby,”
No accountability AND blaming the players. Shocking behaviour.
Colin N said | April 19th 2009 @ 3:54am | Report comment
KO, I agree about Dean Ryan, although his comments weren’t as bad as Dean Richards’ last night.
You mentioned Jack Adams and he was never given a chance at Gloucester and I think he’s heading to Bristol next year.
I remember hearing Iain Robertson’s words on the radio saying Gloucester have ‘reached their level’ and have not ‘had a lot of money.’ That is complete rubbish, apart from Leicester I can’t think of a team who has spent more.
pothale said | April 19th 2009 @ 3:55am | Report comment
Wow – that is appalling. he wasn’t subtle either. Pissing publicly all over your players directly after losing a final is not the behaviour of a good man-manger or displaying any kind of political nous.
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 4:10am | Report comment
Ryan has the largest and most expensively assembled squad in the GP. He has purchased proven winners and they have either regresed or turned to shit under his tutelage. I could go on for ages about the man and his hypocrisy. It’s disgusting and it represents an attitude that is not rugby.
What did Dean Richards say, Colin?
pothale said | April 19th 2009 @ 4:12am | Report comment
Leave you to it. Am off to pub to watch Munster play Connacht and hopefully put one hand on the Magners title by the end of it.
pothale said | April 19th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Back from yet another Munster victory. I tmay not have been a bonus win,, but at the end it looked like they were toying with Connacht and messed around trying to get the final, perfect try. Magners League Champions-elect are in play.
Meanwhile, various birdies in the pub tonight told me that O’Connell is now a ‘lock’ for the captaincy of the Lions. More in media on this tomorrow, Sunday. Also the supposed wonderful tro of Cipriani, Wilkinson and Hook will not be travelling. Not news to a lot of earth-connected Lions fans I suspect.
O’Gara and Jones are nailed onto the squad apparently (gosh, who’d of thought?) and coming up on the inside rails to take back-up spot is…..Toby Flood.
Also sneaking up – more on the outside – is a young KO favourite… Nicky Robinson who may take the last seat on the plane.
Watch out also for headlines involving Mssrs Williams and Jones. Admittedly that’s a bit obscure when considering the Welsh names in the equation – whether it’s those of a speedy nature or those who like the number eight remains to be seen.
Don’ cha’ just love Saturday evening gossip?!
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Crumbs, Stephen Jones.. Surely not again. I have a bad feeling about this coming selection. Oh dear..
pothale said | April 19th 2009 @ 8:28am | Report comment
“Surely not again” Que?
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Stodginess, innacurate kicks, forward passes, missed tackles, lateral running. He was a disaster in 05 and wasn’t exactly spectacular in the most recent 6N.
Colin N said | April 19th 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
To be fair on Jones, he was the best fly-half in the 6n. Not much to chose from but he deserves his spot on the plane to South Africa, as does Flood.
Re: Richards’ comments KO, it was the way he effectively blamed the defeat on the ref. He complained about the penalty try, but really it should have been given a lot earlier. I’ve never seen 5 penalties given for the attacking side in the scrum, before eventually it was given on the sixth time of asking. I must add, everytime Sale had the shove on and it was only because of the cynicism of the Harlequins front-row, that Sale didn’t score a pushover try (hence the amount of penalties).
He also complained that Sale persistantly offended in the first-half, but said that the right action wasn’t taken (aka enough yellow cards weren’t given out). Well Ripol was rightfully sin-binned, but after that Sale didn’t concede as many penalties and seemed to learn their lessons. It’s also interesting to note that when Sale went 14-3 up, there weren’t so many injury stopages for Harlequins players, like there were when they were 3-0 up. There are other things I could complain about regarding Richards, but I’m just too tired.
Brendan said | April 19th 2009 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
Knives out
Above you refer to “SA’s weakness in the scrummage” Please tell me what that opinion is based on? You Pom’s love crowing on about your supposed scrumming superiority yet the Aussies severely embarresed you back in November while the boks scrum was very firm against your scrum when they belted you last year?
Brendan
Colin N said | April 19th 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
“Aussies severely embarresed you back in November while the boks scrum was very firm against your scrum when they belted you last year?”
If the Aussies can apparently smash the English scrum (as reported in the press, although it was fairly even most of the time) and South Africa can only hold firm, then in that sense the South African scrum is fairly weak. When you take into account the fact that the Aussie scrum was dominated in every other game (apart from Italy), then you could also make such assumptions that KO made.
Add to that potential Lions prop, Euan Murray, absolutely smashed his opposite number in the Autumn Internationals, then these claims could be made. I can’t remember what happened in that area when Wales faced South Africa in the AI’s (aka when likely loose-head Jenkins faced his opposite number), but recently, with the instalation of Phil Keith-Roach as Sale’s scrum coach, Sheridan seems to have regained some form and in the last three games and has dominated Bath, Leicester and Harlequins-all renowned scrummaging sides.
Back to Murray and I think he dominated all of his opposition loose heads in the AI’s, yet didn’t have the same effect in the six nations. Was he off-form, or merely facing better scrummaging teams?
Knives Out said | April 19th 2009 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Colin, I can see the logic behind bringing Flood because he plays on the gainline and has that ability to offload out of the tackle. The problem is that neither he nor Jones are high percentage kickers. If the Lions want to win they need good kickers. The SA defence is their strongest point. Personally, I’m just not a fan of Jones. I think he crumbles when the pressure is on and he has this nasty habit of crabbing sideways.
I’ve had a look on so many rugby websites and all I can find is a one line quote about Strettle’s injury. Censorship?
I think Murra ydeserves the benefit of the doubt given that he had come back early from injury, plus Scotland never had a settled locking combination. Murray has been v.good for Northampton recently.
–
Brendan, my statement is based on empirical evidence. Take the time out to watch the Spring tour games and you might notice that Mtawarira was dominated in ever single game. It certainly did not hold firm during the England game until the game was nearly over. Anyhow, what the England v Australia test match has to do with the SA scrum is beyond me? But for the record, I completely agree with Colin. Australia had some good scrums in the Twickenham test but the majority of penalties that Australia gained were completely arbitrary. Baxter collapsed, collapsed and collapsed. Just as he did in Hong Kong and during the 3N. I don’t really think that you have a point beyond antagonism but the SA scrum was by far their weakest point on tour, as it has been for the majority of SA sides in the Super tournament.
Knives Out said | April 20th 2009 @ 6:04am | Report comment
My definitive squad based upon what McGeechan might be thinking:
1. Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan (2)
2. Jerry Flannery, Rory Best, Ross Ford (3)
3. Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes (3)
4. Simon Shaw, Nathan Hines (2)
5. Paul O’Connell, A.W. Jones (2)
6. Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris (2)
7. David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Joe Worsley (3)
8. Jamie Heaslip, Nick Easter (2)
19
9. Tomas O’Leary, Dwayne Peel, Mike Phillips (3)
10. Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones, Toby Flood (3)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (1)
12. Gordon D’Arcy, Jamie Roberts (2)
13. Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin (2)
14. Leigh Halfpenny, Tommy Bowe, Ugo Monye (3)
15. Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney, Delon Armitage (3)
17
pothale said | April 20th 2009 @ 6:49am | Report comment
My latest. Who’s your captain, KO? POC?
No Flutey? Hmmm
Backs (17)
Lee Byrne, Delon Armitage
Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Mark Cueto, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Keith Earls
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Peel
Forwards: (19)
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Martyn Williams, T Croft
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell,(c) Nathan Hines, O’Callaghan, Shaw
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Rory Best, Lee Mears, Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
Knives Out said | April 20th 2009 @ 7:21am | Report comment
I’ll have BoD as captain. Although I’m inclined to listen to the media ‘experts’ who undoubtedly have inside knowledge I’m going to stick with the hand of BoD as my man.
Stu James said | April 21st 2009 @ 2:24am | Report comment
I’m sticking with my team above, but get rid of Haskill and replace with Croft.
Backs (16):
Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney
Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, Delon Armitage, Luke Fitzgerald
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Riki Flutey, Darcy
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones, Toby Flood
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis
Forwards (19):
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Ryan Jones, Haskill
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell, Donncha O’Callaghan, Nick Kennedy
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, Rory Best, Gethin Jenkins, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Ross Ford, Matthew Rees
Extra 36th Man: Keith Earls
Paul O’Connell as captain.
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 2:30am | Report comment
Last chance to get your tips on the board. A virtual bottle of beer is available to the winner.
Knives Out said | April 21st 2009 @ 3:30am | Report comment
I’m still torn over a handful of players: Hayes is the lineout lifter, but Adam Jones is Edwards’s and Gatland’s man. D’Arcy has that relationship with O’Driscoll, but then Flutey is a Wasp. Ross Ford is a powerful carrier but Lee Mears is a top thrower. Cueto is a proven finisher, Monye is the young speedster. Which way is ‘Geech thinking?!
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 5:00am | Report comment
Have decided that since they’re likely to go with 36, then I’m going to have an even balance of backs and forwards. And Jones and O’Gara need a back-up. If they decided to target O’Gara and manage to put him on a stretcher, then the midweek games will need to be covered. They say Flutey can play 10, but it’s too much of a risk. So, I’m gonna go with Flood as back-up and drop a man out of the forward ranks. I’m wondering about O’Callaghan. Word is that the Munster boys have been well eyed-up and some of the partnerships may be preserved. So as well as Flannery and O’Connell, they may want DO’C. However, the others provide better ballast and bollock, so I’m going to drop him. Then I got to thinking about the blinside and only Croft can fill that properly. So I’m gonna put Steve Ferris back and drop one of the three hookers. It hink you’re right about Mears, KO, so Best gets the chop.
Btw, KO, I also wondered about Flutey and whether there might be any lingering grudge between him and BOD after his no-arm tackle in the England match, but O’Driscoll shrugged it off afterwards, so I let that go. But I don’t think Darcy has done enough to get himself on the plane. I could put him in instead of Earls, but I’ve a funny feeling Geech may go with a couple of bolters – even if it’s only the midweek team – and Halfpenny and Earls are my guesses.
Backs (18)
Lee Byrne, Delon Armitage
Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Mark Cueto, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Keith Earls
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Peel
Forwards: (18)
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip,
David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell,(c) Nathan Hines, Simon Shaw
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 5:02am | Report comment
Oops…..Forgot to put in Flood’s name.
Backs (18)
Lee Byrne, Delon Armitage
Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Mark Cueto, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Keith Earls
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones, Toby Flood
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Peel
Forwards: (18)
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip,
David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell,(c) Nathan Hines, Simon Shaw
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
Betcha he now takes Cipriani after all that.
Knives Out said | April 21st 2009 @ 5:07am | Report comment
I like Best. He started as a prop, is a good scrummager and the word on the street is that he’s big on leadership. Vital in SA. My forwards thinking is torn between a high-octane running game that would suit Ross Ford and Andy Powell, or a team that can contest the set piece, specifically the lineout – hence Mears and Nick Kennedy.
I’m plumping for 4 centres with Flood as 12 backup. I think the coaches will go with Armitage for that ‘zing’ he brings. I’m really not sure about Flutey. His stepping is lovely but I would suggest that the Lions need some more kickers. That said, Kearney and Byrne have big boots so maybe they’ll come into the line and Flutey will get his red jersey after all? There’s a lot of talk about Earls but I can’t see it happening. Maybe Paul Warwick will be packing his bags?!
Christ.. I’m a grown man and I’m nervous. Ridiculous. Ignoring SA for one moment, I sincerely think that the players are there: that there are good enough scrummagers, lineout operators, back row technicians and back line beasts and wizards to win this series. Whether the selection and tactics are right is another issue. I’m certainly more optimistic than 4 years ago, anyhow.
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Only one of us has gone for Shane POTY Williams in the backline. There’ll be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the valleys if he doesn’t travel.
Paul Warwick, KO? Are you saying he’s entitled or are you just joshing? If he was available, I’d certainly look at him – he’s a great interchange between 10 and 15.
Knives Out said | April 21st 2009 @ 7:06am | Report comment
I’d seriously consider Warwick were he available, Pot. Reliable kicker, good change of pace.
Personally I hope that Williams doesn’t travel because he isn’t in form, but he displayed such superiority over Habana during the recent Welsh tour of SA that it might be hard for McGeechan to ignore him. Conversely, Ryan Jones was very mediocre on that SA tour and I’d be very happy to see him having a lads booze cruise in Benidorm this summer. His captaincy ,IMO, is pretty weak and I don’t think there’s a place for the ol’ big bum, big thighs type of forward on the high veldt.
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 7:17am | Report comment
Can’t say I’ve looked at his big bum or his big thighs that often, KO. I don’t doubt you, I’ll just leave that to your superior and more discerning judgement.
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 9:56am | Report comment
One more tweak. I’m putting DO’C back in. Losing Shaw.
Backs (18)
Lee Byrne, Delon Armitage
Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Mark Cueto, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney
Brian O’Driscoll, Tom Shanklin, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Keith Earls
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones, Toby Flood
Tomas O’Leary, Mike Phillips, Peel
Forwards: (18)
Nick Easter, Andy Powell, Jamie Heaslip,
David Wallace, Martyn Williams, Tom Croft, Stephen Ferris
Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O’Connell,(c) Nathan Hines, Donncha O’Callaghan
Euan Murray, Phil Vickery, John Hayes
Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Gethin Jenkins, Andrew Sheridan
Knives Out said | April 21st 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
Oh dear God… I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit… Some of the selections are disaster material.
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
And here they are. The formally announced Irish Lions squad:
Backs: (17)
Lee Byrne, Rob Kearney,
Shane Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Ugo Monye, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe,
Tom Shanklin, Jamie Roberts, Brian O’Driscoll, Keith Earls, Riki Flutey,
Ronan O’Gara, Stephen Jones,
Mike Phillips, Harry Ellis, Tomas O’Leary.
Forwards: (20)
Jamie Heaslip, Andy Powell,
David Wallace, Stephen Ferris, Alan Quinlan, Joe Worsley, Martyn Williams,
Alun Wyn-Jones, Paul O’Connell (capt), Donncha O’Callaghan, Simon Shaw, Nathan Hines,
Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Andrew Sheridan, Phil Vickery, Euan Murray,
Jerry Flannery, Lee Mears, Matthew Rees.
The 37th player threw out our calculations slightly, KO. I see that the bolters as predicted are travelling. And Shane got on the plane after all. Alan Quinlan is my surprise pick. Rees also – thought he was injured.
Who are you seeing as disaster material?
pothale said | April 21st 2009 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Sorry make that British & Irish Lions Squad
Knives Out said | April 21st 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
* Ellis and Phillips – they’re both too similar too O’Leary. There is no passing scrum half.
* No 3rd fly half.
*Alan Quinlan instead of Tom Croft.
* Donncha O’Callaghan instead of Kennedy – the 2nd rows lack variety in their style.
* Adam Jones. John Hayes is a far superior lifter.
* Matthew Rees. His throwing is appalling and he isn’t the best carrying hooker in the Isles.
* Keith Earls. I think he’s riding the crest of a wave. Max Evans looked v.snappy for Scotland and D’Arcy has utility value.
pothale said | April 22nd 2009 @ 12:39am | Report comment
Agree with you about Quinlan although he has the battle scars and warhorse mentality that may be needed for some of the games. Darcy has lost some of the pace he had, Earls is quicker over 100m. Let’s hope the wave doesn’t crash on the shore until July!
I think two fly-halves is dangerous – clearly they are going to rely on someone like Flutey if they have to. And they’ve probably put a few people on standby since the season isn’t over yet and I bet some of the 37 will not be in fit state by the time May 30 rolls around.
Am surprised Armitage didn’t make it.
Knives Out said | April 22nd 2009 @ 1:10am | Report comment
I understand the logic behind Quinlan’s selection: he’s a veteran with a good work ethic, is confrontational and is hard. Well, so is Joe Worsley. I think the ommission of Croft is glaring. Worsley and Quinlan are too similar, although Quinlan is probably better in the air.
The two fly half tactic is simply bizarre. Again, they are too similar. Where is the variety?
I’m stunned that Rees has been chosen. His throwing lost Wales the 6N, and Gatland has never trusted him to start ahead of Bennett until Bennett’s injury.
I’m pretty surprised that Armitage didn’t make it given that he can play 15, 14 and 13. I doubt that Earls was selected to play any other position than 13, which I presume will also be played by O’Driscoll and Shanklin? Do we need three 13s?
pothale said | April 22nd 2009 @ 3:11am | Report comment
Earls has played 15 and either wing – so he’s there as a utility as such. Shanklin can play 12, no? Have to remember the midweek team in all this. Flutey and BO’D are likely first teamers with possibly someone like Roberts or Shanklin on the bench.
O’Connell and O’Callaghan are going to have to get used to new lifters.
I wouldn’t call O’Gara and Jones very similar – Jones is more of a runner who looks for breaks; O’Gara has the better kicking game in play. It’ll be interesting to see if they try to target Habana with high kicks in the test matches, like they did with Williams.
Williams is a gamble – he hasn’t been anything near the form he had last year; is it there to be regained? If he plays in the test matches, The Boks will look to target him similarly, along with RO’G down the 10 channel.
Knives Out said | April 22nd 2009 @ 3:51am | Report comment
I know that, Pothale, but I wouldn’t consider playing him at 15. That said, his pace might be especially significant on the harder grounds.
“O’Connell and O’Callaghan are going to have to get used to new lifters.”
That is an insightful comment, and very true. I have serious worries over the lineout. Ignoring Croft and Kennedy is a big call.
I really don’t see Jones as a runner. I see O’Gara as having more breaking ability, and I think that’s reflected in his try ratio at test level.
Incidentally, I was going to print a ‘joke’ test xv on this thread yesterday, and my blindside was none other than … Alan Quinlan (boom boom).
pothale said | April 22nd 2009 @ 6:03am | Report comment
Well, from what I recall of RO’G and Jones when they are standing flat/deep waiting to receive ball into back line, ROG is one with the greater tendency to kick for position, in my view. Close up play, he is clever and better than Jones with chip kicks, and some dummies that have won tries for himself and others.
Croft’s omission seems to be the headline of the day in English papers/media. And Kennedy to lesser extent. Am surprised that Armitage didn’t travel, especially when they added two extra players into the originally planned 35.
Still, now that the squad is there, am looking forward to tour. Have been plotting and planning and have finally decided today that I’m going to head out for about ten days and catch one of the tests and two of the other games, one of them probably the emerging Springboks in Cape Town – have a mate living there. Should be great.
Knives Out said | April 22nd 2009 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Good for you, should be a ball… as long as you don’t make any public comments similar to those uttered by Deick Best.
pothale said | April 22nd 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
No I think “Dick” Best is actually far more appropriate. What a plonker.
Colin N said | April 22nd 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
No Croft….Grrrrrr. I agree, the selections seem quite one-dimensional in the forwards. What are they trying to do, out-muscle South Africa? It ain’t gonna happen. Geech said he would pick it on form, yet he picks Powell and Phillips. These picks seem even more bizzare when Rush is in front of Powell at Cardiff and Geech said the Lions selection was primarily based on performances after January. Nick Easter, despite appearing laboured makes yards and has good hands and would be a different option.
Ryan Jones has been poor this year, but when he played at 8 against Ireland, he played well and IMO, would also be a better option than Powell.
I think the last wing spot was between Monye and Cueto and it’s interesting to note that Cueto has made 771 yards to Monye’s 647 in this years GP. I thought you should know that KO
Knives Out said | April 22nd 2009 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
Monye was busy during the month of November, Colin. Not sure if Mark was.. That said, I still think there was room for Cueto. Williams and Halfpenny are too similar, and, IMO, a wing group of Monye (Pace man), Halfpenny (Small man), Bowe (Big man), Fitzgerald (Utility man) and Cueto (Finisher), would have had a nice balance too it – please ignore the juvenile depictions.
I agree about the forwards. McGeechan picks Mears but only brings Shaw. Why? SA have a superb defence and a superb lineout, so why only bring half the tools? To that extent the forward squad is very confused. I see why they’ve brought Quinlan, and I think that the Lions could have done with a Trevor Brennan-esque figure in NZ, but Quinlan, Worsley and Ferris are all similar players. I simply cannot work out why they wouldleave Croft behind? It’s beguiling to say the least. The same problem arises when one looks at the hookers.. Upon closer inspection the squad just gets worse worse.
Heaslip and Powell are too similar. I honestly think that Easter should have gone: big man, leadership material, good hands etc.
The omission of Blair, Rory Best and Easter means there are less leaders than there could have been.
True Tah said | April 22nd 2009 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
Colin N
re: the selection of Powell, I admit I dont watch any European rugby either at club level or 6 Nations, but I watched last years autumn internationals, and saw Andy Powell teach the Springbok forward pack a lesson and almost single-handedly won the game for them, the bloke seemed to either break or step through the first tackle, and he really showed Pierre Spies up…whilst he didnt play as well against NZ, he did a similar job on the Wallabies.
They are the sort of credentials you want against the likes of the Boks.
Is there much commotion about Ryan Jones not making the squad, he was the Lions best back in 2005, but he looks like hes stacked on a few kilos and lack fitness, hes not playing no.8 either which I thought was his spot?
Colin N said | April 22nd 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Powell was good in the Autumn, but he stilled showed some slight weaknesses that has blighted him recently. even in the Autumn he took the ball into contact too much and instead of clearing out the rucks and doing the dirty work, he single handedly took the ball on when it wasn’t on. Since January (where, the selections were virtually based on), he has been simply awful.
The style of play adopted will be interesting, will they go for the direct, forward dominated styles of Ireland and Wales, or try and change the point of contact like England did. As KO, I think selections tell us which way they are going to play
pothale said | April 24th 2009 @ 4:29am | Report comment
Just for you, KO. I did the tot. There was only a miserable three of us – you, me and Stu James on behalf of the entire SH!
I got 8 wrong out of the 37 and yourself and Stu got 10 wrong. Stu and I both got O’Connell right as the captain. Whee for me!
Ok – next one is easier. Not!
An early guess as to who might make the first 15. Actually the 15 plus 7 for first test. Loads of time to change your mind, since I’m guessing one or two of the 37 won’t get to travel with all of the domestic, high-stakes matches still left on the calendar.
Here’s my first guess:
15 Lee Byrne
14 Shane Williams
13 Brian O’Driscoll
12 Riki Flutey
11 Tommy Bowe
10 Ronan O’Gara
9 Mike Phillips
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 David Wallace
6 Joe Worsley
5 O’Connell
4. Alun-Wyn Jones
3. Euan Murray
2. Jerry Flannery
1. Andrew Sheridan
Knives Out said | April 24th 2009 @ 4:34am | Report comment
I’m not accepting that I got O’Connell wrong. I put myself out there like a martyr. I could have followed the easy route and listened to the papers. I chose not too.. (ahem)
The test side is hard. Who would have thought that Easterby – Jones – Moody would have been the Lions back row in 05? I’ll offer a brief guess: I can foresee Hines or Shaw in the starting xv and Jamie Roberts at 12., with Powell at 8.
pothale said | April 24th 2009 @ 5:13am | Report comment
Yeah as soon as I posted, I realised that Hines might be a better snarlier companion for O’Connell. And thought about Roberts at 12, but find him too much of a bash merchant and if we want to get on the front foot, Flutey might be better finding a route through the Bok defence before finding O’Driscoll or Byrne coming through the line on a brilliant angle. and then he offloads to Bowe who sprints ahead, chips Habana, as they race to the line, and…..
Ok, I’ll stop now. Getting ahead of meself.
pothale said | April 24th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
Apologies, KO. I got the tots wrong – didn’t include Monye.
So that’s 9 wrong for you, and 7 for me. Plus I got the captain right.
Snigger.
Knives Out said | April 24th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
I quite like Roberts. I think he’s a clever footballer. I like Flutey as well. His stepping is tres exciting, but I worry slightly about his defence. Stephen Jones and Ronan O’Gara aren’t the most efficient defenders – although I do think that O’gara’s ‘weak’ tackling is vastly exagerrated – so, IMO, it makes sense to have a big man at 12.
Oh, my other test pick is Monye.
pothale said | April 24th 2009 @ 5:52am | Report comment
O’Gara suffers from the worst kind of perception – even if he’s better tackler than people say he is, offences are still going to decide to steam through his channel and when Wallace or Ferris or whoever isn’t watching his back, he’s getting creamed with the all the big meat coming at him. The Welsh match was extraordinary what they threw at him in the first half, but he stood up to it. As someone said on another thread, it might have been you, KO, the assumption that a 10 should be expected to take all the heavy traffic seems somewhat absurd – is this his job or is it to get clean front-foot ball and get the team moving forward with hand/foot distribution? If he’s given the right kind of protection and good ball, he can make a team sing.
Knives Out said | April 24th 2009 @ 6:21am | Report comment
I can’t claim credit for that comment, but I do agree to an extent. That said, it isn’t much to ask for a professional rugby player to want to tackle. I find it bizarre that a character like Charlie Hodgson has managed to progress so far when he is so reluctant to tackle. In stark contrast to Hodgson’s meek attitude I recall reading in Paddy Johns’ memoir that O’Gara is a very niggly, spiteful player. On a base level I admire that quality. He’s not willing to let anybody walk all over him. Test rugby is dog eat dog, after all. I’m a fan of O’Gara. The high veld is a very imposing place to play, but if his kicking is spot on – if he plays, that is – then the Lions will have a siege gun boot.
Colin N said | April 24th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
KO, I admit Hogdson’s defensive weaknesses, they are for all to see, but he is Sale’s third top tackler this season. It’s obvious that he’s been targeted, but like you say with O’Gara, he’s stood up to it and hasn’t missed too many (I don’t think). He’s never going to be a great defender but he’s improved immensely in this area this season. Also, Hogdson was made the scape goat for the New Zealand tour, but Noon missed quite a few tackles in that tour (a supposedly good defender) and England’s defence was generally poor. I think that try came from a scrum didn’t it? So, where was the back-row cover or the drift from the scrum-half.
One poor tackler doesn’t make a team have a poor defence. After all, Sale have one of the best defences in the Premiership.
Knives Out said | April 24th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
I think Noon is a poor defender. I’ve seen him skinned a number of times on his outside shoulder. Olly Barkley is also another appalling defender. I agree that there is a media agenda, however, my point – perhaps not articulated – was that Hodgson does not like to tackle. You can see it in his face, he simply does not relish the contact. I can’t believe that a man with such an attitude could progress to such a level. Nothing personal against Hodgson, but it genuinely foxes me. How can somebody get away with not wanting to rip off the opposition’s head when contact is such a present in the professional era, from training to matches. It must be quite stressful.
Colin N said | April 24th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
KO, I’d agree with what you said there about Hodgson, but he’s reached the level he has because the other points of his game are excellent. I don’t think he’ll ever be in the England squad again, so in that sense that area of his game has holted his progress, but I would say that Goode is a worse defender than Hodgson, yet his several missed tackles weren’t picked by the media. The other facets of his game are no way near Hodgson’s standards, but I suppose as a Sale fan I shouldn’t be too disappointed that he hasn’t been picked for England.
Knives Out said | April 25th 2009 @ 5:35am | Report comment
Quinlan is having a pretty storming game against the Scarlets.
Colin, I understand I just meant from a personal perspective. It must be hard when you clearly hate contact that much.
pothale said | April 25th 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
That’s another 5 points on the table for Munster. If Ospreys lose to Edinburgh tomorrow and don’t get a losing bonus point, Munster will be champions. McGahan is looking good.
Knives Out said | April 25th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Nice to see Ulster lose… again. Williams is King Midas in reverse. Thankfully I avoided the enticing value of 1/4.
Powell looked good. Which is good.
pothale said | April 26th 2009 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
So the media cognoscenti believe that Chris Cusiter will be the man to take O’Leary’s place on the squad. Blair and Care are lower down the list according to the ‘reliably informed’ Mr Stephen Jones of the Sunday Times. He ‘understands’ that Cusiter and Ross Ford were put on some form of standby for the squad.
The composition of this squad is likely to change further as more injuries start to happen over the next three weeks with title challenges and H Cup battles. Methinks, another 1 or 2 will join O’Leary on the sidelines before May is over. And I think they’ll likely be either Welsh or Irish players.
The next few weeks are intriguing for the various Celtic sides who have players in the Lions squad.
In the Magners title challenge, Ospreys scored four tries yesterday evening with Shane Williams and Tommy Bowe both getting over – and they still managed to lose to Edinburgh. So, even with a game in hand over leaders Munster, they need to win their three remaining matches with a bonus point win to overtake them. Munster have two games left. They just need two points to take the title. But the last two games are not easy. Cardiff Blues and then Ospreys.
The Blues – winners of this year’s Anglo-Welsh Cup – are nowhere in the Magners league title race. But they are in another one in the table. They lie near the bottom tied with their neighbours Scarlets on 30 points. If the Dragons beat Connacht today with a bonus point – a strong possibility – then all three Welsh team will be on 30 points. At that point, eyes will be on H Cup qualification next year. Lowest placed club has to go into a play-off for qualification. Despite it being against an Italian club, none of them want that potentially tricky hurdle.
The Blues therefore, need to win at least two of their four remaining matches against Dragons, Munster, Scarlets and Edinburgh. And they’re in the H Cup semi-finals as well. They’ve a packed schedule ahead of them.
Assuming that Munster and Blues win their respective H Cup semi-finals next weekend – that’s what the bookies think – Dai Young will relish a pop at the Munsterites before they meet up in the final. First, the Blues have another league match 4 days later at home against Dragons. So soon after the semi-final, Young will rest his first-teamers and likely lose and leave them second last in the table above Connacht.
Two days later, the Blues then meet Munster in the league. Young and McGahan will play most if not all their Lions in that match. A win for Munster will give them the title early and allow resting of their senior players. It won’t be pretty and the potential for more injuries to Lions players will increase. A win for either side gets lots of psychological points before the Heineken final. If Munster lose, then Ospreys will be waiting in the wings to see if they can pip them to the title. They’ll also have the added motivation of revenge for their recent thrashing by Munster in the H Cup, the Welsh loss in the 6 Nations, and the consequent loss of Lions places.
So there’s still a lot to play for and a few scores to be settled before the Irish and Welsh players get on the plane for South Africa. And not all of them may get there.
Interesting times ahead for Celtic rugby and the Lions squad.
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 3:59am | Report comment
He has to be ‘realiably informed’. Originality and insight aren’t his strong points.
I’m not sure if there’s actually much of a case for Cusiter. He has been rotated all season with Durand and didn’t feature much for Scotland.
pothale said | April 28th 2009 @ 4:17am | Report comment
These are all the signature phrases when someone has leaked some information to a member of the media and doesn’t want it to appear so. And the journalist covers his ass with these weasel phrases – it is understood, reliably informed, etc, etc.
If not Cusiter, who would you figure, KO? Geech said he was not going to get rushed into a decision, but I presume he’ll want to give the player some time in advance, particularly if he wants them to join the tour party in early May at Bagshot??
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 5:03am | Report comment
Jones is the main eunach at Wasps these days and so I’m guessing somebody is passing info. downard from Geech. Maybe Lewsey or Dallaglio.
It’s a hard one to call. Blair didn’t play well during the 6N but is a pedigree player. Peel just hasn’t really played much. I definitely think that a passing scrum half is a must. Personally, I think I’d prefer Peel but with such a short tour the players have to hit the ground running. Equally I’m a big fan of Care. Can’t decide. You?
Colin N said | April 28th 2009 @ 5:17am | Report comment
I would personally like to see Care there, but I also think Joe Simpson would have been in contention had he been given more game time for Wasps this season.
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 5:21am | Report comment
I notice that Reddan has gone to Leinster. Good news for Simpson. I haven’t seen much of him but his tries against Bristol (?) were pretty special. I happened to be standing next to him in the gym a few months ago, and there’s nothing of him.
pothale said | April 28th 2009 @ 6:40am | Report comment
Yeah I figured Reddan would be persuaded to move west again. Whitaker is well past his sell=-by date and with Contemponi going, they need to create a new half-back partnership. It’ll be interesting to see if they stick with Sexton or look to bring someone else in.
I think either Peel or Cusiter will be in the frame. Can’t see them looking at Stringer even though he’s going to possibly feature in two high-profile games, as well as being part of clinching the title for Munster.
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 6:50am | Report comment
Is Mike Ross moving to Leinster or is that just rumour?
pothale said | April 28th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
Dunno. Heard that piece of scuttlebutt too. Am meeting a club guy on Wed for a roaster and might get some skinny.
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Roast dinner?
Knives Out said | April 28th 2009 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
I found this on ‘The Times’ website. I wasn’t aware that Keohane was taken seriously? I suppose you learn something new every day. I like the way that Keohane infers that any loss will be solely attributable to the coaching panel. Subtle stuff and accurate too. He clearly watches a lot of rugby.
“If South Africa loses a Test, let alone a series to these plodders, then it will be an embarrassment to the coaching staff that needs to haunt them for eternity. Which of the visitors would you select ahead of the South African starting XV? O’Driscoll, perhaps? No more.” Mark Keohane, South Africa’s top rugby blogger
“There are two superb goalkickers, which should be a lesson for the Bok selectors…There is a nice blend of size, experience, speed and skill.” Craig Ray, Cape Times
“I am not into saying that the Lions have no chance but what they try the Boks can counter that. If the Lions go for a massive pack and very physical forwards, there’s no reason South Africa can’t pick bigger and more physical guys.” Jake White, South Africa’s 2007 World Cup-winning coach.
I found this Jake White quote is best paralleled with this other fantastic Jake White quote taken from 2005, following the 32-16 (or something similar) loss to England:
“It was men against boys .. People back home think we’re big and strong. It’s time to wake up and smell reality.”
Fantastic. The South African experience is not complete without some great media hyperbole and overt politicking. Incidentally, didn’t Jake White receive an offer from ‘Geech to coach the Lions? Oh, hang on.. I remember now; he suggested that McGeechan had contacted him about coaching the Lions. McGeechan’s public response, when questioned, was a puzzled look and a brief statement explaining how White had left him a msg. on his mobile asking for a chat and that actually he wouldn’t be needed.
pothale said | April 29th 2009 @ 5:00am | Report comment
I think best policy is to take the underdog mantle and wear it with pride. Springboks have been training and preparing for this contest for two years. They’ve got cohesiveness, they’re big, fast, the performers in this season’s S!4, etc, etc. Set against this are the Lions – a scratch team, with the wrong blend of players, not mobile enough, none of their players bar one would get into Springboks side, etc, etc.
Love it. I’m waiting to get to Cape Town before I visit the bookies – the odds will be much better there.
BTW, KO – also in the Times website – did you see the section on ‘Video Special – The Lions Tour, Top players Interview’?
Intrigued, I clicked on it to open upon the heading: British Lions (sic) Video Interviews. Presenting was Lawrence Dallaglio talking to Steve Borthwick, Paul Sackey and Shane Williams. Hilarious. You’d think they’d update their site and not embarrass themselves.
Knives Out said | April 29th 2009 @ 7:22am | Report comment
I did see that. A shake of the head and quick click on the appropriate section and all was fine again. Talking of embarassment: Steve Borthwick’s public lament concerning his Lions exclusion was pretty awkward. Having watched his performance versus Bath I can only suggest that he’s had a stroke. He seems to be rather excitable recently. Maybe the public support of Johnson has imbued him with a new mentality.
I agree about the odds, good idea. The current odds circulating William Hill, Victor Chandler et al are pretty skinny. I’ve been getting into the spirit of things and flicking through Lions chapters in various autobiographies. History points to a 2-1 result.
Knives Out said | May 3rd 2009 @ 5:39am | Report comment
Geech might now be thinking that he’s going to have to call up Tom Croft when Quinlan receives his gouging ban.
pothale said | May 3rd 2009 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Yep you’re right KO. Was at the match – an absolute cracker. World record attendance, great fixture to watch – certainly for all the Irish fans – and the right result – for this fan anyway. Thrilled for Leinster.
Geech may now be regretting about 6 or 7 of his picks at this stage. Both those he has picked and those he left out from today’s match.
Quinlan will be caught.
Viscount Crouchback said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Today’s match merely illustrates how absurd it is to pick purely on form. If Geech had picked his squad tonight, doubtless he’d have included D’Arcy, Jennings and perhaps even Cullen. Earls, Quinlan and O’Callaghan would be out. It’s a complete joke.
The Scotch have been very critical of McGeechan. They think he’s gone for the easy option of selecting players in winning teams rather than go through the difficult process of identifying good players in bad teams.
I think this criticism has much merit.
Knives Out said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Viscount, oh do bore off. The form of the Munster players stretches right across the season. One swallow doesn’t make a summer and one bad game doesn’t reduce a season’s worth of good work to rubble. Jennings and Cullen. Ludicrous statement.
Had McGeechan taken the easy options then he would have included Blair, Cipriani/Hook and Ryan Jones. Do you even have any players in mind or are you just offering banalities for the sake of it?
pothale said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
He’s got a point KO. Or rather, he’s building on the one I made prior to his post.
The performance of some of the Munster players was not good in this match. Watching the match from the stands and talking to the Munster fans afterwards, we couldn’t quite put out finger on what had been missing. Leinster were undoubtedly very good and brought the stirling defence they had displayed in the Quins match to the fore again. Earls made some eye-catching breaks, but a bit like Kearney was commented on earlier in the week by Fergus Slattery, he kind of ends up nowhere after these breaks. Or rather no-mans land, with insufficient support.
Darcy, on the other hand, showed – along with O’Driscoll – some superb defensive tackling – and I would say the pair of them are one of the best defensive partnerships in world rugby based on today’s display.
Yet O’Driscoll didn’t deserve Man of the Match – a fact he acknowledged after the match – rather it was the forward display that took on the Munster bunch up front. Cullen and Elsom were outstanding. In contrast, O’connell, O’Callaghan, and others were somewhat pedestrian. O’Connell took some great lineout catches – as usual – but very little came of it. They just didn’t expect the level of competition at the breakdown both in having their ball slowed and the ability of Elsom and others to win quick ball for the Lions.
Leinster have been living in the shadow of Munster this season. They’ve lost the title to the Southerners – largely cos they lost both their derby matches with them – that’s the difference between them. But they’ve struck where it really counts – for both teams – in the Heineken Cup. Cullen derserves much merit and praise for this – he has led from the front – supported by Elsom and O’Driscoll. Would I pick him over O’Callaghan? Yes.
I’d still keep Earls – but use him in midweek matches. Quinlan will write his own story – and the citing commissioner may lend him a hand in the next couple of days.
Jennings isn’t at the right level.
The “Scotch” – Viscount? Is this an affectation peculiar just to you or all belted earls?
I am not aware that there has been any great Highland clamour about McGeechan and his Lions selection since the Scots sensibly recognise that his selection of two of their own is about right based on their season performance and skill level. The only argument they might have is which two to choose.
Viscount Crouchback said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
One swallow doesn’t make a summer? I quite agree. Which makes it all the more astounding that McGeechan selected Earls and Quinlan on the basis of one good performance against the Ospreys. Neither played in the Six Nations. It was quite absurd to include them in the Lions squad.
Incidentally, I mentioned Jennings and Cullen to illustrate the absurdity of picking purely on form, but that subtlety seems to have gone quite over your head.
Knives Out said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Pothale,
Flannery had a good game and has had an excellent season. O’Connell had a bad game but has had an excellent season. The same applies to O’Callaghan, Wallace and O’Leary. Munster lost the front five battle and so everything else crumbled. That’s life. You can’t dominate every game.
The only ‘Scotch; to have commented publicly about the Lions is that old warhorse, Telfer.
Crouchback, I don’t think that the two were selected on the basis of that one game. I really, really don’t. Which is why your ‘form’ argument hasn’t gone over my head. It’s simply wrong.
pothale said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Except that Cullen’s form this season has been very good, VC.
And Earls and Quinlan did play in the 6 Nations. And both have played well over the season and it is that consistent performance which formed the root of their selection. I don’t recall McGeechan saying that he picked them solely on the Ospreys match.
Viscount Crouchback said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Actually, KO, I think Earls was selected on the basis of that one game. Edwards’ column insinuated as much. I also think that if Ryan Jones had enjoyed a rip-roaring game against Quinlan then he too would have been selected. Shaun Edwards was quite explicit that many of the calls came down to last-minute form.
O’Connell worried me today. He’s always been a useless ball carrier, but you don’t expect to see him losing lineout ball to Mal O’Kelly. Victor Matfield will be licking his chops.
Viscount Crouchback said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Nonsense, pothale. Earls and Quinlan did not start a single match in the Six Nations.
pothale said | May 3rd 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
KO – Yes Flannery played well and the O’Cs didn’t. However, this wasn’t just another league match – it was a cup semi-final against their derby rivals. It’s not something you can afford to take your eye off or fail to prepare adequately for. They did both. That’s telling – about the captain and some of this key troops.
pothale said | May 3rd 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
I didn’t say they did, VC. And this conversation is getting too disjointed. I’m off.
Knives Out said | May 3rd 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Keith Earls has had a good season for Munster. Quinlan has had a good season for Munster. Beyond that it is patently obvious that Quinlan was selected for his aggression, desire, lineout ability, sense of humour and the fact that he would most likely be good mid-week tourist. It is certainly arguable that his type of player, or a Trevor Brennan, would not have gone amiss on the 05 tour. Ryan Jones cannot force his way into the 8 jersey for Wales or the Ospreys. Also, he was poor on the Welsh tour to SA, thus I don’t think he was in the running simplt because he is a different type of player to Quinlan.
One failed semi-final doesn’t mean a great deal. Leinster has underachieved for years, does that mean we can cast aspersions on O’Driscoll? Conversely, the persistent failures of the Ospreys means that we can cast aspersions on Ryan Jones.
Knives Out said | May 3rd 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Pothale, good call. Might join you. Don’t worry, I’ve collared him. I know you didn’t say that. He’s a fibber and an exagerrator – ‘Scotch ‘, and I’ve collared him.
pothale said | May 4th 2009 @ 2:50am | Report comment
Well that’s a few more Lions rested up for the tour now that Cardiff Blues have been knocked out of the H Cup. My hat is safely stored in the cupboard for next year.
Must confess I’ve never seen a cup game get decided by kicks, and sudden death ones too. I thought Leicester were home and hosed – thanks to the peerless efforts of Croft and Murphy, and then they let them back in with stupid sin-binnings and two last minute tries to tie it up.
For all that, I think Leicester deserved to win it. Cardiff were very flat today for most of the match, except when they got the two-man advantage towards the end. Halfpenny showed a lot of nerves today and I wonder how he’ll stand up to test match rugby on the veldt.
Powell plays like a last-minute substitute – lots of puff and blow – but no hard edge.
Jordan Crane was superb and is a good future England prospect – he even got the winning kick between the posts to win the match.
Not a nice way to win or lose the match as both sets of players and coaches said afterwards, but the right team won on the day, in my view.
Rumours are flying that as well as the video showing the supposed ‘gouging’ by Quinlan on Cullen, there’s also clips showing O’Connell doing something similar to Horgan during the match. It’ll be interesting to see if there’s any legs under that one. Imagine if the Lions captain gets cited and is removed from the tour.
pothale said | May 4th 2009 @ 4:14am | Report comment
To even things up though, Jantjes has suffered a broken leg from his S14 match so he’s out of the Lions tour. And there’s doubts over a couple of others too. Did I read that Burger taken some kind of knock or is it only minor injury? Anyone?
Knives Out said | May 4th 2009 @ 6:24am | Report comment
I’m really not a fan of Crane, Pothale. He has a great work ethic but lacks power. Last year he made the most amount of carries by a long distance but only came 8th in the metres gained stats. I’m pinning my rose to Tom Guests’s mast.
The ‘penalty shoot out’ was a farce. I bet the IRB thought they’d never have to actually address the issue and now we’ve had to witness a Lion with 80 odd test caps hooking the ball like a Vinny Samways special. It simply isn’t right. I agree that Leicester deserved to win but it was dissapointing to see Cardiff’s Heineken narrative end in that manner. On the plus side, Tom Croft and Jamie Roberts looked good, IMO.
Apparently Burger has a calf issue and is awaiting a scan.
P.S. I’ve see the photo of O’Connell’s gouge. It’s not exactly conclusive. I haven’t seen any evidence pertaining to the Quinlan gouge and Michael Cheika was pretty quick to stand up for him. A lot of people have said it looks pretty naughty, however.
Dublin Dave said | May 4th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
pothale and knives out
The “belted Earl” as you pointedly called him is actually quite right. Keith Earls has never played in a Six Nations match, either from the start or the bench.
And Quinlan hasn’t played in a Six Nations match since 2003. That was way back when England were winning Grand Slams.
His grab at Cullen’s eyes has been shown on RTE news and is also on You Tube. Without wishing to indulge in “trial by media” it doesn’t look good for him.
pothale said | May 4th 2009 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Thanks for that Dave – I thought Earls had come on from the bench. My faulty memory. Apologies to the belted Earl.
I replayed the Quinlan incident a number of times from my recording – it’s difficult to work out what he was trying to do. At first I thought he was trying to get at Cullen’s already injured nose as he pulled his fingers across his face, but I’m no expert on the act of gouging. It may have been unthinking on Quinlan’s part, but I would agree that it does not look good for him. Cheika was quick out of the blocks to defend him, but I suspect that will not hold any sway with a citing commissioner. Or maybe it does – if the offended player decides not to bring any charge?
I haven’t seen any visuals on O’Connell – have you seen anything? Haven’t seen any media reports on this.
Knives Out said | May 5th 2009 @ 5:49am | Report comment
Pothale & Dave, first time I’ve seen the gouge. In preparation for the boxing I happened to fall asleep during the first half. It’s not as bad as I’ve heard, but it is bad, nonetheless. The ball is quite clearly not involved and that it was one handed suggests that Quinlan was trying to ‘attack’ the face of Cullen or in rugby terms give him a slight touch up. Not clever.
The O’Connell ‘gouge’ is nonsense. I’ve seen a still doing the rounds and although O’Connell’s hands are in the face of a Dub there could be a million reasons for that.
pothale said | May 5th 2009 @ 6:26am | Report comment
Quinlan has been cited by the Commissioner, John Byett. That’s him buggered for a number of weeks and out of the trip. Ryan Jones or Tom Croft likely to be called up instead.
Knives Out said | May 5th 2009 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
Fingers crossed for Tom Croft. What was Quinlan thinking?
pothale said | May 5th 2009 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
He wasn’t. Cos taking Cullen out of it achieved nothing anyway.
I had a look at the pictures of O’Connell on Munster site and others. There’s one still picture that looks like he’s going for Horgan’s eyes, but it’s misleading. If you look at the video, his hand travels across his face to the side of his head so that he can pull him out of the scrap that was going on. Mischievous stuff by others – that’s all.
pothale said | May 8th 2009 @ 4:54am | Report comment
Tom Shanklin has now been ruled out of the Lions Squad after dislocating his shoulder severely enough to require reconstructive surgery that’ll take 16 weeks.
The speculation is that Gavin Henson may come back into the frame for consideration, even though he’s had little game time. I really hope not.
Other candidates? Well Geech might just reconsider his squad mix and elect to bring another 10 to expand his options – however Toby Flood is now out for 6 months, leaving people like Cipriani (little game time) or maybe Sam Vesty as possibilities amongst others.
If it’s a direct replacement then players like Henson, Tindall, eh, eh, eh……
KO? Ian?
Knives Out said | May 8th 2009 @ 6:06am | Report comment
D’Arcy for me. Tindall is another option but we saw the defensive strength of D’Arcy and O’Driscoll versus Munster.
pothale said | May 8th 2009 @ 6:47am | Report comment
I was going to add Darcy then was trying to see if they’d want to take someone bulkier. But I agree about his tackling – you think a partnership of him and O’Driscoll in the test team?
I figure Croft is a shoo-in for Quinlan. Don’t know about who takes over from O’Leary – maybe it’ll be clearer after this weekend.
pothale said | May 21st 2009 @ 7:23am | Report comment
And the news keeps getting worse. The Lions are now going to lose their #1 hooker, Munster’s Jerry Flannery from the tour, after he suffered a fracture chip in training today. Rory Best and Ross Ford are the likely two front-runners.
Tom Croft has been confirmed as the replacement for Alan Quinlan, another Munster player. Quinlan lost his appeal against a 12 week ban for gouging.
The Munster contingent gets smaller and smaller. Wallace and O’Connell are now the only two strong possibilities for the test team. What was hoped to be a strong cohesive presence and on-field combative core is now busted as a theme for the Lions side.
Leigh Halfpenny is also not going to travel with the squad on May 30 to nurse an injury – he hopes to join the squad in two weeks, but with Tom Shanklin already out of the tour, McGeechan will now definitely name a replacement for the squad. With Halfpenny’s long-range kicking ability out of the picture, Geech may look for another kicker. Will Cipriani yet get a call-up?
Knives Out said | May 21st 2009 @ 7:32am | Report comment
This is a disaster. Not a natural disaster but very bad, nonetheless. O’Leary and Flannery had a lot to offer. I’m gutted for them both. The Munster curse strikes another.
Colin N said | May 21st 2009 @ 7:55am | Report comment
I don’t think it is too bad, as I like Mears (I’m suggesting he will be first choice now), I think he is a very dynamic player. If they call-up a player for Halfpenny, it will probably mean a call-up for Armitage or Cueto, but Armitage’s goalkicking ability will just about edge it. However, although he can cover there, with him not being a natural winger, will that mean a call-up for two more players now, replacing Shanklin after all?
As for the hooking situation, I envisage Rory Best being called up.
Knives Out said | May 21st 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
I would hope that Best is called up, but I have a high opinion of Flannery. He is dynamic, aggressive and accurate. Best is a proven scrummager and thrower but lacks that impact. I would also put Mears as the front-runner. I think Rees is going to fill the undercard position that McBryde and Bulloch undertook during 01 and 05.
pothale said | May 21st 2009 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Except Best is due to captain Ireland on Saturday against Canada. In Vancouver! If Ford is more readily available and can be brought into the squad effectively tomorrow, they might plump for him.
They will definitely call up a player because of Halfpenny’s extended injury, and make the squad 37 when he returns in two weeks.
They’ve lost Shanklin and are losing half of Halfpenny – (Which means he now gets the nickname Farthing in my book.)
Armitage would seem to be the better call for ultility and kicking, than Cueto. Someone also mentioned Thom Evans, but I don’t think he’s a kicker of note. Chris Paterson possibly? Just nominated player of the year in Scotland, for what it’s worth.
However, Farthing will be back, so does Geech go for a more inspired choice, and bring in a third 10 like Cipriani or even someone like Vesty?
pothale said | May 21st 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Actually – speaking of Vesty, what about his Captain – Geordan Murphy? He’s a kicker, experienced, played wing and full back……..and could be a H Cup winning captain by Sunday morning when they get on the plane. Wonder how he and the Leinster boys would get on?
Knives Out said | May 21st 2009 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Dear. oh dear. My initial high hopes are slowly being bogged down by the weight of injury. I honestly feel truly gutted for Flannery, O’Leary and Shanklin. I truly believe that they would have made great contributions. Reagrding replacements, I would say that Delon Armitage is probably worth a call-up given his flexibility and kicking (inconsistent kicking). Cueto isn’t flexible enough and there’s something about Murphy that isn’t quite what it was, if you catch my drift. Maybe James Hook is in the pipeline?
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
And as the 27 May rolls in, it’s nearly time for Geech to name his first Lions team to play the Highveld XV in Rustenberg on Saturday. Crowds will be slightly smaller than expected cos there’s some other game featuring an SA team on at the same time, apparently.
However, a low-key kick-off to the tour may suit the Lions nicely as they get their squad gelling underway.
So who is Geech & Co likely to pick for the first match? They’ve promised that every squad member will play at least two matches before the 1st test.
We know that any of the Heineken Cup or Challenge Cup players won’t be playing so that puts O’Driscoll, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Heaslip, Croft, Ellis and Murray out of the picture.
O’Connell is unlikely to play as the tour captain, as the midweek team captain will need to get established from game one.
My money is on a player who holds or has held a captaincy role. So that puts Blair, Vickery into the role from my initial selection:
Lee Byrne
Ugo Monye, Tommy Bowe,
Jamie Roberts, Keith Earls
Stephen Jones
Mike Blair (c)
Andy Powell,
David Wallace, Joe Worsley
Alun Wyn-Jones, Donncha O’Callaghan
Gethin Jenkins, Ross Ford, Phil Vickery
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:15am | Report comment
KO? Any thoughts/suggestions on this one?
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:25am | Report comment
Lee Byrne needs a run out, as does Kearney.
I think McGeechan might select Hines up front with Vickery as captain. Other than that I agree.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:53am | Report comment
Well I hadn’t put in the full 22 – would put Kearney in there as I agree he needs game time too.
Adam Jones, Mears, Shaw, Ferris, Kearney, Hook, Williams to go on the bench.
I figure he’s looking at using Hines in the test team alongside O’Connell, unless he wants to keep the Munster partnership together, but with Flannery gone, they’re going to have to do a lot more basic homework on the calls and lineout play.
Talking of which, I wonder how much honesty there’s going to be about handing up individual club plays and moves for the betterment of the Lions?
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:17am | Report comment
I was under the impression that Hines hadn’t had too much game time over the past few months? I’d really like to see him in the test team, regardless.
‘Talking of which, I wonder how much honesty there’s going to be about handing up individual club plays and moves for the betterment of the Lions?’
As long as Wasps’ and Wales’ calls/tactics aren’t used I’m a happy man.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:42am | Report comment
Cos they’re crap, or you don’t want the state secrets handed out?
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:35am | Report comment
Cos they is crap.. or at least tactically one-dimensional and turgid.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:49am | Report comment
Oh and there was I thinking you just didn’t like them.
Hines hasn’t had much game time this season. He came back from injury for the match against Ireland, and finished his season with Perpignan prematurely saying that he wanted to join the Lions squad which pissed them off – just a tad.
But the man from Wagga Wagga has always had a bit of a chip on his shoulder – some of which has landed him in hot water, like his consecutive sendings-off in matches against Ireland for somewhat excitable play, and others which I quietly cheered him on for – walking out on Flat Williams when he was Scottish coach.
He’s popular in Perp, and he could be an interesting foil to whoever he partners in the second row.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:54am | Report comment
What could be more interesting is the Perpignan reaction to his premature absence if they lose their semi-final this weekend. I recognise the honour of playing for the Lions but I’m a bit uneasy about leaving one’s club in the lurch.
Ultimately, I’m a big fan of Hines. He’s a talented man. My only worry would be that he would get too riled up. Hopefully the weekly actual bodily harms that occur in the top 14 will have strengthened his natural discipline. Whisper it gently but I’m quietly confident about this tour.
It seems we share a mutual dislike of Matt Williams. Excellent.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:27am | Report comment
Agree about being quietly confident, KO. No need to whisper though – no-one else comes in here.
Am looking forward to Saturday. The Royal XV match will set the tone for a number of things – particularly the mindset and character of the Tour. All has been sweetness and light thus far, with Geech encouraging the players to go and meet/greet people a la tours of old. they’ve been well received.
The first tackle or two on Saturday should see whether it’s going to be a hard slog all the way, with the Lions turning inwards, and nursing (un)healthy grudges, or whether they will rise above and win hearts and minds, no matter the outcome.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:39am | Report comment
‘No need to whisper though – no-one else comes in here.’
Quote of the day. Raised a smile.
Have you noticed that even the tour suits seem a bit ‘old skool’ – the navy blazer and grey flannel trousers. I like them but they look a bit ‘Grange Hill’.
‘Am looking forward to Saturday. The Royal XV match will set the tone for a number of things – particularly the mindset and character of the Tour. All has been sweetness and light thus far, with Geech encouraging the players to go and meet/greet people a la tours of old. they’ve been well received.’
Agreed. It’s wonderful that the players are seeing the sites, so to speak, but there are only 6 games prior to the 1st test. The game is about winning, and I hope that McGeechan doesn’t overexaggerate the simplicity of touring. That said, Gatland’s recent comments reveal a bit of stress.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 5:42am | Report comment
Stephen Ferris is lacking game time. Perhaps he’ll get a start on Saturday.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:05am | Report comment
Ferris was one of four players who picked up knocks today in training – he may just get a bench spot.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:16am | Report comment
Really? Where are you reading this, Pot?
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:19am | Report comment
And I see that Fergie’s nose will be getting redder and redder – and probably longer – as he tells anyone who’ll listen even more stories about why his wonderful reds didn’t deserve to lose tonight. All my sporting wishes are coming true this year so far. The obnoxious and overhyped bandwagon that is Manchester United soccer club was cleaned out this evening as Barcelona left them in their wake. Oh joy!
Have a look at this from You Tube – nice little compilation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k7D9h1XqIY
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:26am | Report comment
Oh well, at least Sir Fergie has the joy of beating my beloved THFC in the Carling Cup penalty shoot-out. Bit of an anti-climax for plastic Mancs the world over. Plenty of Man Utd fans in Ireland, as I recall. Apparently Scunthorpe doesn’t have enough of a glamour factor to transcend nationalities.
What an excellent video. I feel like I’ve just had a stroke. I’m so excited about the coming games that I have gone so far as to purchase an old 1993 tour compilation VHS (nobody has yet taken the trouble to transfer the games onto DVD).
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 7:27am | Report comment
It’s funny that, KO. I’m a lifelong Spurs supporter and have endured decades of scorn and derision through thick and thin and thin and thin……..
I’ve managed to blank out this year’s final and instead replay last year’s semi-final and the final instead – much better fun.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
An Irish Spurs fan. Now that is something I have never seen. I recall during the Gordon Strachan, Gary McAlister, Eric Cantona title chasing season that Dublin, in its entirety, seemed to be supporting Leeds. This season was quite shambolic and I have heard contrasting opinions about Levi from people ‘in the know’. Whatever happens Redknapp is a comparatively shrewd operator and we are definitely better than 14 or 15 of the other Premiership teams. Not qualifying for Europe will allow a real Premiership charge.
–
Lions team v Royal XV:
Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales), Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland), Keith Earls (Munster/Ireland), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales), Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales); Ronan O’Gara (Munster/Ireland), Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland); Andrew Sheridan (Sales Sharks/England), Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales), Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales), Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England), Paul O’Connell (Munster/Ireland – captain), Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England), Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales), Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales).
Replacements: Lee Mears (Bath/England), Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England), Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales), Stephen Ferris (Ulster/Ireland), Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales), Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales), Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England).
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
Yes indeed – if Redknapp can keep the team going for next season. Levy and his board seem to have a penchant for changing managers at the first sign of trouble. Am chortling to myself at the 30m we extracted for lazy Berbatov – his performance last night was pathetic.
Got some of my selections right, but I see Geech plans to make a statement with Paulie leading the troops out. Himself and Shaw should be dominant in the lineout. Earls and Roberts should be an interesting mix in the centre – am looking forward to the combination of force and speed from the two. Should we read anything into the selection of O’Gara as the 10, or is it just going to be turn and turn about in each midweek before he makes his selection for the test team. I presume Hook will get a run in the role at some stage.
What’s your expert view on the front row/pack? I know the names, but am trying to see if any of them have played together before in regular combinations. Four Welsh – Rees/Jones. Williams/Powell. Worseley/Shaw are club and country and Sheridan with Eng. O’Connell is on his own. Will they gel?
Blair is the odd guy out in the back-line with combinations of Welsh and Irish who know each other through 6N and Magners.
Depending on how the game goes, there could be wholesale bench changes with the half-backs being swapped out. Flutey on for Roberts at some point?
Colin N said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:52pm | Report comment
I don’t want to read anything into the selections at this stage. Geech may be trying some combinations or simply giving some of them game time. I’m glad there’s more of a creative edge to the midfield, rather than trying, what I consider a one-dimensional midfield, of Roberts and Shanklin.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
I presume you mean trying in theory Colin, since Shanklin isn’t in the squad any longer.
Colin N said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
Oh crap, ‘egg on my face,’ I believe is the term I should be using right now.
It still would have been one-dimensional though
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Don’t worry, Colin – even one-dimensional theories have their place in the great smorgasbord of discussion on the Roar.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
Pothale, just briefly:
The front row looks solid. Sheridan and Jones are very hard workers. Jones has lost weight and was very active during the 6N, but whether that tranlsates onto the hard SA pitches is another matter. I don’t think many opposing props will be scared of either ‘Big Ted’ or ‘Big Ad’, but they are solid achievers and it’s comforting to think that the mid-week side (in theory) will have such a solid foundation. I’m not a fan of Matthew Rees. Not at all. He may very well prove me wrong, however.
Shaw and O’Connell will be an interesting parternship. I’ve always wanted to see how O’Connell would play with a really big cart horse. Despite his appetite for destruction O’Callaghan has always been on the slight side. To that extent O’Connell’s burden might be slightly eased by Shaw. That said, the back row are not great lineout jumpers and Shaw isn’t a ballerina either, so O’Connell’s burden may be far greater than normal.
The back row looks energetic. Worsley, like Shaw, is very good at what he does and should provide the stereotypical blunt side to the blade of Williams and Powell. A durable front five is vital in SA and the back row should have a very good platform to work on. The key is to how the team clicks, as obvious as that sounds. The opposition are no great shakes so this should be a useful work out (He says without any hint of arrogance or complacency). I would hope that Powell and Williams can work off Jamie Roberts.
The bench forwards look solid. All in all this is a strong looking pack, with a nice combination of athleticism and stoic reliability. Good stuff.
pothale said | May 29th 2009 @ 1:23am | Report comment
“Just briefly”, eh? All that just off the top of your head, I suppose.
Nice one.
Knives Out said | May 29th 2009 @ 2:08am | Report comment
I had a boiled egg on the go.
pothale said | May 29th 2009 @ 11:55pm | Report comment
A hard-boiled one – I assume.
Knives Out said | May 30th 2009 @ 12:49am | Report comment
6 minutes seems to produce a nice bit of runny. My cooker is rubbish.
Knives Out said | May 31st 2009 @ 4:10am | Report comment
Positives: the gainline was breached with ease; the rolling maul was penetrative; a willingness to offload; the form of Adam Jones, Simon Shaw and Jamie Roberts; the strength of the scrum.
Negatives: the speed at which the breakdown was reached by a backrow which contained two number 7s and despite the ascendcy that the front five created; the general lack of cohesiveness; the personal form of Blair, Earls and Rees; a lack of accurate execution; the referee’s inability to rule on the scrum; the tunnel vision of Paul O’Connell.
All in all the first game is always ‘darned if you do, darned if you don’t’ so I wouldn’t take too much from the 80 minutes, especially with the weather and altitude but rightly or wrongly I don’t think the Boks will be too nervous. We should have a much clearer picture by next Saturday evening.
pothale said | May 31st 2009 @ 5:06am | Report comment
Hmm. Didn’t get to see the game live, but had reports of it before I got a chance to see edited highlights.
Earls melted in the sun and circumstances and his dropped balls and missed passes are an evident sign of that. It’s not the first time that a youngster has found the high-profile occasion overwhelming. Nevertheless his inclusion as a starter for the midweek team, never the unlikely possibility of him playing a test match, now seems to be at risk. This may be beneficial to him. Being on the bench and coming on may have been a better starting position for a young ‘bolter’ in the full glare of media and public expectation. It’ll be interesting to see how Halfpenny fares but at least he’s had the international test experience with Wales.
O’Gara was more than solid, and despite the presence of a ’scarlet red face’ (normally a sign that things are going to go off the rails), he kept his composure and battled through some of the errors he made to rack up 22 points and making one try and finishing off another.
O’Connell was a mixed bag for me. I was reminded of the time he had the captaincy for Ireland when BOD was injured and Ireland were playing France for the Grand Slam some years ago. O’Connell went manic in his half-time talk instead of getting cold, focused and composed. He was erratic today and I wonder – without the benefit of watching the full match yet – whether he inspired his troops sufficiently.
Byrne was cracking at 15 and if he keeps this up will leave Kearney tending to the midweek matches.
Walllace was a last minute replacement into No 8 due to Powell’s injury. Despite him playing this position regularly for Munster, he’s much more suited to 7, and that’s where he should play for the remainder of the tour in whatever match he’s picked.
Blair was – to my disappointment – dismal. As was Philips in replacing him. I only hope that Ellis shines in the next match and/or Blair recovers his form somewhat, because he just wasn’t good enough for Test material.
Shall watch the full match later on. However, watching the Bulls run in 7 tries against a fairly abject Chiefs side, there’s a lot fo work to be done, if the Lions are to confront the Boks in a meaningful way on 20th June.
Colin N said | May 31st 2009 @ 5:33am | Report comment
I think a lot of the individual performances reflected their recent club and international form. Shane Williams showed his recent Wales form and in turn tried too hard. Blair also did this by putting in a pretty awful display. Phillips was an improvement, but I’m not particularly a fan.
Up front, Sheridan continued his recent good Sale form and Adam Jones put a lot of work in and helped clear out the rucks. Personally KO, I wasn’t that impressed with Shaw, but then again, i was watching it off a dodgy internet stream, so I didn’t see the little details.
I think most of the subs made an impact, with the exception of Vickery. Mears provided far better ball at the line-out, Flutey made a couple of excellent breaks and Wyn-Jones scored that crucial try.
All in all, it’s been an enjoyable day of rugby with the Lions game, an inexperienced England side succumbing to a superb Barbarians team, and the Bulls putting in an outstanding display to beat the Chiefs.
Knives Out said | May 31st 2009 @ 5:43am | Report comment
The scrum was excellent. That is a good thing and as banal as this sounds it is very encouraging foundation for the entire team. The lineout was bad. A little rustiness is to be expected in the first game but Matthew Rees struggles badly with even throwing a ball straight, let alone to a moving target. That was always a major worry pre-tour and unless that is remedied then the Lions will be in an unenviable position. Rees’ inconsistent product will now heap the pressure on Mears, and more worryingly, Ford, who has always struck me as mentally fragile.
Like Rees Blair struggled with the dynamics of making the ball go where it should, and that is also a major worry. Instead of Peel or Cusiter the Lions have two non-passers, Ellis and Phillips, and an out of form player who is clearly lacking in confidence, Blair.
On the plus side, the entire team seemed to breach the gainline with ease. However, despite SA fans building up this Royal side as being relatively strong (Griquas ect), I can’t comment on their professionalism or durability, or whether they are worthy compeition physically. I’m assuming that the majority of the team are semi-pro or amateur? That said, had a few more passes gone to hand or the luck of the bounce gone another way hen the Lions could have racked up some points. The backs looked penetrative, especially the back three and Jamie Roberts. Flutey looked in fine quick-stepping fettle and RoG was solid. Sterner tests await but at least the team looked to attack rather than grind the Royal side down.
The overall performance deserves a C+ but at least there are some positive signs there. Let’s not forget how we Brits and Irish struggle with the heat, and the red face factor that you refer too. The most worrying issue is the breakdown… Enough said.
Knives Out said | May 31st 2009 @ 5:46am | Report comment
Colin, I think Shaw put in some nice touches today, and he seemed to improve as the game developed, in contrast to O’Connell. I often moan about Borthwick’s desire to carry the ball but O’Connell’s carrying was perplexing. He just opens his mouth, lowers his head and lumbers forward. One thing that Martin Johnson had was a great spatial awareness. On todays form O’Connell could be a new Campbell-Lamerton.
Knives Out said | June 1st 2009 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
British & Irish Lions: 15 Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland), 14 Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland), 13 Brian O’Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland), 12 Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales), 11 Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England), 10 Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales), 9 Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales), 8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland), 7 David Wallace (Munster/Ireland), 6 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England), 5 Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales), 4 Nathan Hines (Perpignan/Scotland), 3 Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England), 2 Lee Mears (Bath/England), 1 Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales).
Replacements: 16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh/Scotland), 17 Euan Murray (Northampton Saints/Scotland), 18 Stephen Ferris (Ulster/Ireland), 19 Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales), 20 Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England), 21 James Hook (Ospreys/Wales), 22 Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales).
pothale said | June 1st 2009 @ 11:51pm | Report comment
Couple of surprises for me in that lot.
Kearney makes sense – he needs a run-out after Byrne’s tour-de-force on Saturday.
Surprised Bowe is running out again when Luke Fitzgerald doesn’t even make it to the bench. Not sure what kind of an omen this is, Unless they’re saving him up because O’Driscoll won’t play any more midweek matches before the first test. Surprised but nice to see that he’s been handed the captaincy, and gives him the chance to shine on a Lions tour wearing the armband. He’ll have respect from the other players as the Grand Slam captain. And from the Lions. (on the other hand, maybe that’ll be more reason not to).
Looks like Roberts is lined up to play a full match, unless Geech decides to replace him with Hook. Either they rate him highly or he won’t be playing in the Tests. However, I thought Hook was more likely to replace Stephen Jones at some point in the second half. Shane Williams will replace Bowe no doubt at some point. The Welsh 9/10 partnership may well be a test by Geech & Co to see if an international partnership works. Philips has a lot of work to do.
Order restored in the backrow with Heaslip, Wallace and Croft all picked in their best positions in my view. Lot of speed in those three – should make for an interesting match up against the Golden ones. And can’t wait to see how Hines performs. Front row – is this possible test 3? Though they mightn’t know it yet?
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 12:21am | Report comment
Forgot all about Fitzgerald, Pothale. I was expecting him to run out on the left wing this Wednesday. A fine, fine player. Maybe he’ll find himself in the 13 jersey at some point?
I think McGeechan likes Vickery, but he did make a point (or somebody did) that all players would get at least one full game in the 1st three. Mears will be throwing in to Croft, which could be useful, and I have longed to see Mears and Hines in tandem. Sheridan and Jones performed admirably in the 1st game. The pressure is now on Jenkins and the Raging Bull.
All in all this looks a good team. The one thing I realised this morning is that there aren’t many weak links, IMHO. During the 2001 and 2005 tours I would look at some of the team sheets and groan with displeasure. I do believe that this squad has a great mix. Whether or not that translates into results is another thing but I’m quite content so far.
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 12:48am | Report comment
The first game was a bag of nerves mixed with squeaky bum time as the Lions realised way too late in the game for my liking that they could lose it. the fightback was good and showed they could rally troops, albeit with fresh legs – definitely needed in the weather and altitude.
What needs to come through in Wednesday’s match is a strong sense of a team working together, and who really start to force the pace on their opponents. This is a fast team with some potential weak links – 9 &10. I suspect Phillips will wilt in the sun and Ellis brought on a lot sooner than expected or warranted. I’ll happily wear egg on my face for a day if he proves me wrong. It’s up to Jones to get his backline moving – and they can move.
Kearney is in wonderful position – from this fan’s point of view. He has no choice but to emulate and better Byrne at 15 . His kic-and-chase better be up to the mark, but he also has a talent to take it up himself and make the backline unstoppable like he did for more than 40 minutes in the Ireland/France game – more please Robert, and you might give the coaches something pleasurable to think about.
You’re right KO, Fitzgerald will get a full game in the next match. Not sure it’ll be at 13 though. Bowe and Williams are likely to be rested, and Monye will have played on Wed, so he’s likely to get a wing berth. Flutey for a full game on Saturday, partnered with …eh…eh…. damn you’re probaly right ..Fitzgerald. Has Monye played there before? Or does he use Kearney again? Of course, reports say that Halfpenny will be ready and on tour by end of Wednesday – will he get thrown in at deep end since Earls is injured?
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 12:58am | Report comment
I wouldn’t trust Monye at 15. Not on your nelly. Conversely, Fitzgerald says the full back jersey is his favourite. I presume you’re talking about the 15 jersey?
I’m not expecting fireworks from this game simply because it’s 22 players who haven’t played together, the same problem that we had on Saturday. I will expect improvements defensively and a clear and defined blue print but I’m sure there will be a lot of silly mistakes that will gradually be eradicated as the tour progresses.
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 1:07am | Report comment
No I was talking about wing berths not 15. I presume Byrne will go in there again on Sat.
I have greater, more positive hopes for the game on Wed. Partly because if they aren’t up to the mark, the Lions have shown in the S14 already this season that they can put one over better teams.
A 60,000 crowd should add to the spectacle – how many of those will be British and Irish fans remains to be seen.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 1:15am | Report comment
‘Has Monye played there before? Or does he use Kearney again?’
I’m confused?
Rugby Fan said | June 2nd 2009 @ 1:15am | Report comment
Earls, O’Gara, Flutey, Fitzgerald and Sheridan are all carrying injuries and so were not considered for selection. O’Gara and Sheridan probably wouldn’t have featured but Fitzgerald and Flutey were both in line which is why Roberts and Bowe are back. Earls might have been given a chance at redemption ahead of Bowe but his shoulder keeps him out. Geech obviously thought it was worth having a look at Roberts & BOD together rather than giving Hook a run out at centre.
If McGeechan is serious about giving each squad member a start, then the 3rd match could see Fitzgerald, Halfpenny, Flutey, Hook, Ellis, Ferris, Powell, O’Callaghan & Ford in the next XV. If Geech sees Flutey as a genuine contender for centre then he’ll probably play him there in the 3rd match to get a proper look but I wonder if he will think of Hook at no.10?
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 1:50am | Report comment
Hadn’t realised Fitzy was carrying an injury – I read that it’s something to do with his knee. Ditto Flutey. Thanks Rugby Fan.
Sorry KO, I’m being confusing. It’s not important. I meant has Monye played at 13 before – since Fitz and Earls are both out.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 2:03am | Report comment
No probs. No, I don’t believe he has, but then equally he might have slotted in there at club level. I don’t think he has. Ian Noble would know.
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 2:52am | Report comment
Here’s the Boks Squad – just been announced:
SPRINGBOKS
Forwards (14):
John Smit – Sharks (81) – Captain
Victor Matfield – Vodacom Blue Bulls (80) – Vice-Captain
Andries Bekker – Vodacom Western Province (13)
Bakkies Botha – Vodacom Blue Bulls (55)
Schalk Burger – Vodacom Western Province (49)
Deon Carstens – Sharks (7)
Bismarck du Plessis – Sharks (21)
Ryan Kankowski – Sharks (7)
Tendai Mtawarira – Sharks (10)
Chiliboy Ralepelle – Vodacom Blue Bulls (3)
Danie Rossouw – Vodacom Blue Bulls (36)
Juan Smith – Vodacom Cheetahs (54)
Pierre Spies – Vodacom Blue Bulls (19)
Gurthrö Steenkamp – Vodacom Blue Bulls (20)
Backs (14):
Jean de Villiers – Vodacom Western Province (46)
Fourie du Preez – Vodacom Blue Bulls (43)
Jaque Fourie – Xerox Lions (42)
Bryan Habana – Vodacom Blue Bulls (46)
Adi Jacobs – Sharks (21)
Ricky Januarie – Vodacom Western Province (34)
Odwa Ndungane – Sharks (3)
Jongi Nokwe – Vodacom Cheetahs (3)
Wynand Olivier – Vodacom Blue Bulls (21)
Ruan Pienaar – Sharks (27)
JP Pietersen – Sharks (24)
Earl Rose – Xerox Lions (uncapped)
Frans Steyn – Sharks (27)
Morné Steyn – Vodacom Blue Bulls (uncapped)
Steyn was added and joins 10 players from the Bulls team who feature.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 2:56am | Report comment
I see PdV and the coaching staff are doing their best to sabotage their pre-destined whitewash of the meek Lions.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 2:58am | Report comment
Have you seen the Bath news?
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 4:17am | Report comment
Nope – what’s up? More squirrelly statement? Resignations? Allegations are unfounded? They’re going to move to Ireland and represent the Independent Principality of Muff in Donegal?
Please indicate your preference.
Colin N said | June 2nd 2009 @ 4:19am | Report comment
I’m surprised to see Brussow not in the Springbok squad. Regarding the Bath news, I hope (providing nothing signifcant comes of it), Kingsley-Jones is on the phone to Michael Lipman trying to sign him up, we need a seven, especially as Abraham has a habit of headbutting people nowadays – he needs to get his hair cut.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 4:33am | Report comment
Higgins, Crockett and Lipman have all resigned immediately. Coincidentally just prior to their hearing. Methinks the RFU will get involved and this could get serious.
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 5:09am | Report comment
Hmmm – just read the reports in media. They’ve issued a statement through their solicitor denying they refused to comply with a drugs test, and that they’ll set out to clear their name.
I presume after a certain period of time, that testing becomes useless to detect presence of anything illegal in their systems.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 5:18am | Report comment
I know that marijuana takes 30 days to leave the system, having once read an article on how Michael Howard single handed turned the general prison population into heroin addicts. Don’t know about cocaine or ecstasy.
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 5:50am | Report comment
Using the hair drug test, it can detect three months back from date of test. They’ve a bit of time to go yet.
Knives Out said | June 2nd 2009 @ 5:53am | Report comment
Good ol’ Tricotech. Watch out, lads!
pothale said | June 2nd 2009 @ 6:01am | Report comment
Just found out a bit more on injuries.
Riki Flutey needs a scan to his right knee, after he tweaked a muscle in last match. Keith Earls is recovering from bruised shoulder joints; Luke Fitzgerald is being give time off after ‘a demanding domestic season’. He has a chest infection and has a couple of days off – he’ll play on Saturday. On the wing or in the centre.
Knives Out said | June 4th 2009 @ 1:20am | Report comment
Earl the Pearl has been withdrawn from the Golden Lions squad allegedly due to PdV insisting that he be played at fly half ahead of Andre Pretorius. As that great social commentator Peter Andre once noted, ‘Insania!’
pothale said | June 4th 2009 @ 2:28am | Report comment
And because of the injuries to Flutey and Earls, Gordon Darcy has been called up to the squad. He joins the Lions tomorrow as cover for the backs for the remainder of the tour. That should make competition interesting in the back-line.
Am pleased for him – he’s back on top form this season and he didn’t play half-bad for the Baa-Baas against England either.
Roll on tonight – looking forward to it.
Pothale said | June 4th 2009 @ 4:51am | Report comment
Never thought I’d find myself saying this. What a bunch of SH plodders! Whatever the Bulls can score, the Lions can go one better. Great result.
Knives Out said | June 4th 2009 @ 5:01am | Report comment
If the Lions weren’t as bad as the Saturday game suggested then we shouldn’t look too deeply into this result. IMO, the same positives that were apparent versus the Royal side were more clearly defined tonight. The scrum was good, the attacking intent was there, and the defence and ruck contest was much improved. This was a good performance but I’m sure the stereotypical SA one-eyed rugby ‘fans/experts’ who dismissed the Lions as mediocre plodders will blame the sacking of Eloff. Perhaps Earl Rose would have made the difference? A good result, it should build confidence.
pothale said | June 4th 2009 @ 5:09am | Report comment
Oh ok – let’s reign in the triumphalism.
Lions did ok tonight. Not a bad result against a Super 14 team. Could do better I suppose.
That kind of thing?
Knives Out said | June 4th 2009 @ 5:16am | Report comment
Was it the Super team or the Currie team?
I just don’t see the point in being too OTT. There’s always a handful of SH wonderboys willing to shout any NH success down, and who could be bothered too argue with Hemjay?! Regardless, It was an impressive performance given that it was a 1st performance as a team but there is still a lot to work on. I honestly think that had more passes gone to hand in the two games that the Lions could have racked up some huge scores. This Lions squad contains some fine players and some fine athletes, but let’s just keep that to ourselves, eh?! As long as the SA core think that the Bulls are the best team in the world then I’m happy. You’re never stronger than when your enemy thinks you are weak..
pothale said | June 4th 2009 @ 5:46am | Report comment
I thought the Lions were pretty poor tonight in fact. Lots of dropped balls, forward passes and not enough hard stuff at the breakdown. Don’t know what the coach was thinking bringing on so many players as replacements – the game lost all shape and direction. If the Boks were looking in tonight – they’ve nothing to worry about really. Mostly second class stuff compared to the SH heavyweights.
Knives Out said | June 4th 2009 @ 6:18am | Report comment
I think the general consensus pre-game was that the non-SA Lions would win a close fought affair. Interestingly, the fans on notorious idiot Mark Keohane’s website seem to be slightly worried now. The ‘correspondent’s still aren’t. But then who cares? I found out today that the Springboks were 1/6 favourites in 1997. The Springboks are, or at least were earlier today, 2/5 favourites to take the series. The bookies have never matched the optimism/pessimism of the respective SH/NH journalists.
pothale said | June 4th 2009 @ 6:25am | Report comment
So all in all s the B & I Lions were pretty shocking tonight. No coherence in play, stuttering moves, missed tackles to let in a try, gave away a penalty, and could have lost the game very easily.
They were very lucky.
Dublin Dave said | June 4th 2009 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
Take your tongue out of your cheek Pothale. You’re getting very hard to understand
Serious question: why all the empty seats? On Saturday there was the excuse of the super 14 final. But last night the stadium seemed to be very bare. Whassa story? Is there a recession on? Was there something unmissable on TV? Does the Lions tour concept not mean such a big deal for the Boks any more?
Knives Out said | June 4th 2009 @ 6:40pm | Report comment
The Lions are slow, plodding, mediocre footballers. They struggled to beat the Royal Invitation side. Why waste hard earned rand going to watch those okes! The series is a foregone conclusion.
Perhaps that attitude pervades, or perhaps the stadium was simply ver, very big.
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 1:57am | Report comment
Free State Cheetahs v Lions
Previous meetings 8
Lions’ biggest winning margin 31 – 3 ( v Cheetahs 1955)
Lions’ biggest lost margin 3 – 6 (v Cheetahs 1924)
Top Lions try scorer v 3 (John Bentley)
Top Lions Points scorer v 22 (Tim Stimpson)
Average points per game for Lions 20
Average points per game against Lions 11
Average points difference +9
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 2:04am | Report comment
Dublin Dave – was puzzled about that too. I was finding it very hard to book tickets for the games I was going to see through some agents. Then I rang a mate who lives in Cape Town and he said there was no difficulty at all on the ground – so must be the usual scalping by agents/local operators, etc. Same difficulty with internal flights – took me ages to get flight to Durban organised without mortgaging the house.
The SA organisers were claiming beforehand that the Lions game last night was a sell-out of 60,000. If there was even half that, I’d be surprised.
Maybe locals have lost interest, and maybe the traveling Lions fans have too. If they faced the difficulty of getting tix and flights as I did initially, and were faced with some of the outrageous prices being charged, some of them may have just given up.
Not a good omen for future tours if the revenue doesn’t stack up. They’ll just start cutting down the local games further to maybe 2 or 3 before the Tests which would be a great pity.
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 3:32am | Report comment
Likely line-up for Saturday. Still a few players and combos to look at.
15 Kearney
14 Earls
13 Fitzgerald
12 Darcy
11 Halfpenny
10 Hook?
9 Ellis/Blair
8 Powell
7 Williams
6 Ferris
5 O’Callaghan
4 O’Connell
3 Murray
2 Ford
1 Sheridan
Replacements: O’Gara, Byrne, Monye, Hines, Vickery, ??
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 3:39am | Report comment
Surely if Earls is fit he’ll slot into 13, Fitzgerald at 11 and Halfpenny at 14. Do you not think that Kearney will start ahead of Byrne? There are various permutations. Hook could even play 15.
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 3:41am | Report comment
…
Halfpenny at 15.. etc..
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 3:50am | Report comment
True to all that, KO. I do think Kearney will start ahead of Byrne – that’s why I put him in there.
I think they may decide to change it up during the game depending on how it’s going. If it gets tight then it’ll be batten down the hatches and each to his best position.
Was just figuring they will want to give each player a run out in certain positions. Earls may need to get eased back into the game after his baptism of fire, so I put him on wing – but maybe at 11 and Halfpenny at 14 as you say. If O’Driscoll gets injured, who do they put in at 13? i reckon they’ll want/need to give Fitzgerald a try-out there.
Wasn’t sure about the pack/front-row. Who needs more examination? Thoughts?
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 3:54am | Report comment
Ford and Murray, I would guess. Sheridan will start ahead of Jenkins but I wonder who will cover the bench. I would guess that Adam Jones will start the next game at 3 but bench for this and that Vickery will cover the bench. Of the 5 props only Vickery and Jenkins can play the alternate propping position.
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Hmmm… looks like Earls still isn’t fit after all. Some journos reporting that both he and Flutey could possibly be permanently injured for the tour – shoulder joint for Earls and fluid on knee joint for Flutey. I hope things get better for them after less than auspicious starts in the Royal XV match.
So Fitzgerald is likely to be 13 in the line-up to be announced tomorrow with Darcy partnering him in the centre. However, they haven’t played together in those positions for Leinster that regularly or recently – trying to remember if/when they’ve done it for Ireland.
At Full Back, Byrne could start or else Hook or Halfpenny. Kearney played a full game on Wed and they seem reluctant to play guys two games in a row from Wed to Sat according to Edwards. Albeit, Kearney may be itching to get another go since he didn’t feature that highly against the Golden Lions.
Halfpenny and maybe Shane Williams – who needs to get more game time – on the wings. Monye and Bowe have done enough to be going on with.
I reckon they might start with Hook at 10 who’ll have his tail up after scoring and need to build on that. O’Gara to sub at some point.
Ellis to start at 9 with Blair subbing him at some point.
Powell, Williams and Ferris are the obvious back-row selection going on needing game time and starting a match.
The O’s in the second row is also obvious.
Front Row? Murray, Ford, Jones? If I have them right.
Rugby Fan said | June 5th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
I hope Fitzgerald is fit – there seem to be some lingering doubts about him but the management need to get him on the pitch or else he isn’t going to have much chance to make a mark on tour.
It’s a bit of a worry that the Lions are looking short at centre. That was one of the problem (along with many others) in 2005 when BOD, Shanklin, Henson, Wilkinson and D’Arcy were all out of contention for the final Test. I know McGeechan likes to keep the squad tight which means people sometimes playing out of position but I hope we don’t have too many matches where the centre partnership is makeshift.
If Flutey and/or Earls don’t recover, I wonder who is on the Lions back-up list?
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Darcy has already been brought in as cover, Rugby Fan. Flew in last night.
That gives them Fitzgerald, O’Driscoll, Roberts, Darcy, as options with the other two out. Hook could also play 12. Kearney Bowe and Halfpenny are all makeshift centres – but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
If Flutey and Earls are both definitely out, then they may want to look at bringing out someone else. But it shouldn’t be necessary.
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 9:56pm | Report comment
Lions: 15 Lee Byrne, 14 Leigh Halfpenny, 13 Keith Earls, 12 Luke Fitzgerald, 11 Shane Willians, 10 James Hook, 9 Harry Ellis, 8 Andy Powell, 7 Joe Worsley, 6 Stephen Ferris, 5 Donncha O’Callaghan, 4 Paul O’Connell, 3 Euan Murray, 2 Ross Ford, 1 Andrew Sheridan.
Replacements: 16 Matthew Rees, 17 Adam Jones, 18 Simon Shaw, 19 Nathan Hines, 20 Mike Blair, 21 Ronan O’Gara, 22 Gordon D’Arcy.
Knives Out said | June 5th 2009 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
Some brief points:
* The midfield looks lightweight and inexperienced.
* There isn’t much variation on the bench. Fitzgerald and D’Arcy both step inside when playing 12.
* The back row is heavy duty. It will be interesting to see how Heinrich Brussouw responds.
* The front row looks impressive, however, Ford must nail his throwing otherwise the bench option is Rees… mmm
* It seems that Hines is back row cover. I do recall a Lions staff member noting that he could play 6…. mmm
I can’t see this team routing the Cheetahs by 60+. But hopefully they can maintain the forward platform, score some tries and build momentum.
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Wow – some of the obvious ones fell into place, but others are questionable.
Ok, so they went for Byrne again – looks like Kearney is the dirt tracker FB.
Halfpenny and Williams makes sense – they need game time.
Earls and Fitzgerald? Well, it’s good to see that Earls is fit again after conflicting reports about his recovery. And he’s playing in position. Fitzgerald at 12? Not too sure about that – he does not have the experience – that’s a weak point that the Cheetahs should explore. And Earls needs good experience inside him.
If they bring on Darcy for say Earls, it would balance the line better. Also there’s some computations there if/when O’Gara comes on with Hook shifting out the line.
Blair for Ellis at some point is also predictable. Wonder if they’ll double sub the 9/10 combo at the same time? O’Gara hasn’t had any time with Ellis yet. And putting him back in the hands of Blair will do him no favours if Blair repeats his ‘mare.
Bakcrow is good – had forgotten about Worsley – look forward to that.
The O’s in second row with option of Shaw or Hines to partner with O’Connell makes sense. This will be main chance for O’Callaghan to prove himself – it looks like. And/or Hines to sub the backrow.
Was looking for the team sheets for the Cheetahs during the S14 to compare with what they’re putting out tomorrow. Are they shy a few or full strength bar any Boks they may have contributed to the national squad.
Anyone?
This will be a much tighter game, unless Fitzgerald and Earls really blossom – stranger things have happened but I’m not holding my breath.
At least the back three have played together internationally, but overall the backline is a real trial for all.
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Found them:
Cheetahs: 15 Hennie Daniller, 14 Danwel Demas, 13 Corne Uys, 12 Meyer Bosman, 11 JW Jonker, 10 Jaques- Louis Potgieter, 9 Tewis De Bruyn, 8 Hendro Scholtz (captain), 7 Francois Uys, 6 Heinrich Brüssow, 5 David De Villiers, 4 Nico Breedt, 3 Kobus Calldo, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Wian Du Preez.
Replacements: 16 Richardt Strauss, 17 WP Nel, 18 Frans Viljoen, 19 Kabamba Floors, 20 Gerrie Odendaal, 21 Louis Strydom, 22 Fabian Juries.
Juan Smit is the only player they’re down cos of Bok duty.
Should be a good game so.
Rugby Fan said | June 5th 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
That centre selection is what I was talking about. Is a pairing of Earls and Fitzgerald really one of the best centre combinations the home nations have to offer? In theory, both are ahead of D’Arcy in the squad pecking order so Geech wants to give them a run but I’m not sure we would look too convincing in the Tests if we ended up needing either Earls or Fitzgerald to start. Not inconceivable given that we went up against the All Blacks four years ago with a knackered Will Greenwood and Gareth Thomas at centre. A midfield of Hook & D’Arcy would at least have some pedigree but that would have meant starting ROG at fly-half and less game time for Williams, Earls, Halfpenny and Fitzgerald.
I hope they can perform but it may end up being a poisoned chalice for both Earls & Fitgerald. I’m also a little worried that both were said to be uncertain starters because of injuries/illness so its a big ask. I suppose Geech thinks the Lions is all about taking on those kinds of challenges.
pothale said | June 5th 2009 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Gotta agree with you, Rugby Fan. As I said above, it’s a big ask for both for different reasons – Earls given his shaky baptism and injury – neither conducive to getting you going as a first up centre in what will be a tough match. And Fitzgerald does not have much experience in the 12 role with Leinster. I would have had Darcy in there for at least first half to steady the ship, and put Fitzgerald at 13 where’s he’s more comfortable and has played with Darcy.
Still – it’s done now – let’s see what happens. If they get blown away, then it will be very hard for Earls to come back, and will not do Fitzgerald any favours, who is needed as back-up at 13, in case O’Driscoll gets injured (which I would rate at 30-40% likelihood, despite being cotton-wooled.)
Knives Out said | June 6th 2009 @ 12:36am | Report comment
And to think that my friends laughed at me when I suggested that Mike Tindall would be an asset in SA. Realistically, how up to speed would D’Arcy be?
Let’s not look past the obvious. The Cheetahs have to get the better of a pretty solid pack and I will wager that the Lions scrum will munch the Cheetahs. My main issue lies with the lineout. Like the 1st game the back row aren’t lineout giants and Ross Ford is a wobbly thrower. David de Villiers had a good lineout season in the most recent Super 14, but at least Juan Smith is absent from the aerial battle. Ford’s tussle in the loose with Strauss will be interesting. Hopefully this game will be a good test.
pothale said | June 6th 2009 @ 12:40am | Report comment
How up to speed would D’arcy be for what, KO?
Playing?
Knives Out said | June 6th 2009 @ 12:43am | Report comment
The calls, the weather, the banter and the mindset.
Greg Smith said | June 6th 2009 @ 3:29am | Report comment
Doubt it’s gonna be a great test for the Lions. This is a Currie Cup side or a laugh in this years S14
That said, Grey College boys are a fired up lot. Crowds could be better although the T20 World Cup Cricket is a notable clash
A 74 -10’sh score won’t scare South Africans. Denial is not only the longest river in Africa, it’s also a mindset we suffer when on cloud 9. (Thanks to the Bulls)
That denial will only clear when we go down 1-0 in the first Test. I’ve seen stranger things happen and so have 99% of South Africa’s rugby union fans – the jolt is almost enjoyable and sadistically we like the ‘classic’ kick in the teeth start
This rodeo mentality then develops as fans thrilled at the prospect of the bloodied victory expectantly watch their champ go down in the 1st round and show the character to make the bell all the way to round 12 a la Rocky Balboa and finally win
Nothing sophisticated … in fact the South African way of saying ‘fek off’ to sophistication
We’ll see if the British & Irish Lions can prove themselves capable of providing this type of ‘classic’ series
Regarding British & Irish Lions popularity in South Africa. It’s an interesting thing. I myself have wrestled with it. Partly because of the Afrikaner-English thing and the war history and such and such – against the backdrop of the current socio-political status quo… the British & Irish Lions concept is somewhat dodgy as a re-enactment throw back.
Only when England tours South Africa do we have the same conflicting internal ‘national feelings’ Give me Scotland, Ireland and Wales anytime. The England and British & Irish Lions stir up or threaten to stir up feelings we’ve spent a lot of energy shoving into the closet.
Maybe this inarticulate exposition of national feeling might help you. I suggest you look at the Arch in Stephen Green in Dublin … that story in still hanging around in pockets in South Africa
Knives Out said | June 6th 2009 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
‘Regarding British & Irish Lions popularity in South Africa. It’s an interesting thing. I myself have wrestled with it. Partly because of the Afrikaner-English thing and the war history and such and such – against the backdrop of the current socio-political status quo… the British & Irish Lions concept is somewhat dodgy as a re-enactment throw back.
Only when England tours South Africa do we have the same conflicting internal ‘national feelings’ Give me Scotland, Ireland and Wales anytime. The England and British & Irish Lions stir up or threaten to stir up feelings we’ve spent a lot of energy shoving into the closet.’
Tell me more.
Knives Out said | June 7th 2009 @ 4:34am | Report comment
McGeechan’s selection came back to haunt the team. Despite what the management said about the ruck management of the ref., the Lions struggled. Worsley at 7 is not an option – although Brussouw is far more of a snaffler than Burger is. Hines as the only back row reserve was not clever.
Ferris’ yellow was harsh. He hit the man hard and from an angle but made no effort to move. A warning would have sufficed but such is life. I wouldn’t read too much into the scores from the Cheetahs. Two tries came about against 14 men and 1 was an intercept. Other than that they were pretty weak.
The scrum was a mixed bag but I tend to side with Murray.
The midfield was predictably laboured and there was neither variation on the bench nor in the back three, with the two smaller wingers.
The conditons were wet and the Lions didn’t play intelligent rugby.
pothale said | June 7th 2009 @ 10:38am | Report comment
So in what match do Geech & Co trial their likely test team?
The Lions have played their three matches to give everyone a start.
The three remaining ones are about finding the right selection for the first test, and determine who finishes the remaining 4 local ones including the Emerging Springboks. Given that the 6th game against Southern Kings is going to be too close to the Test match, it would be fair to say that most if not all players selected for this match won’t be getting a first Test spot.
This leaves Game #4 or #5. I reckon there’s a few more combos or individuals to be looked at, and some tests of skills to be done, so game #4 against Natal Sharks will do that. But Game #5 against Western Province is the likely dummy run.
So, if a player is picked for starting next game, there’s a strong likelihood that they’re not looking at him starting in the Test match. The exception might be on the wings and whether Flutey recovers to play again on tour.
So, here’s my possible line-up squad for next game:
15 Kearney
14 Leigh Halfpenny
13 Keith Earls
12 Gordon Darcy
11 Luke Fitzgerald
10 Ronan O’Gara
9 Mike Blair
8 Andy Powell
7 Martyn Williams (if fit)
6 Tom Croft
5 Donncha O’Callaghan
4 Simon Shaw
3 Jenkins
2 Rees
1 Jones
Replacements: James Hook, Harry Ellis, Alun Wyn Jones, Phil Vickery, Ross Ford, Jamie Heaslip, Ugo Monye,
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 1:08am | Report comment
O’Callaghan and O’Connell have looked a bit out of depth compared to the other locks, I think. I have always been a fan of Ian Gough and think his work rate and power hits would be invaluable in a mid-week team. O’Callaghan is a trier and a real energiser but so many Irish caps on and I still have reservations about his top tier ability.
I agree with the lineup. But there isn’t much recovery time between the game and Tuesday.
Flutey, if fit, needs a game and Powell needs more time to impress.
Rugby Fan said | June 8th 2009 @ 1:53am | Report comment
Martyn Williams said that Fitzgerald and Earls (along with Croft) have looked good in training so there are at least two players who haven’t yet done themselves justice in a match. I doubted whether they woudl be able to bring out the best in each other playing in the centre and so it proved. We can add Shane Williams and Powell to the list of underperformers although I’m beginning to wonder if Powell might not be up to it on this tour. It was frustrating that the players knew they were struggling at the breakdown and yet all the ball carriers kept going to ground instead of trying more offloads or just making sure they didn’t get isolated.
O’Connell must be a little concerned that both teams he has featured in so far have misfired. I think some of the players on Saturday thought they were going to score a hatful after the first 20 minutes and began to think about how they could impress personally. They still tried to play expansively when down to fourteen men and that allowed the Cheetahs to score a couple of quick tries and regain their composure. After that, the Lions couldn’t reassert themselves and bizarrely looked like they were chasing the game even though they were never behind on the scoreboard. O’Connell had a reasonable game but he’ll have to have a think about how he can keep his team focused when things aren’t going to plan. He also needs to work on his rapport with referees. Sheridan again mentioned that the opposition front row was collapsing scrums but not being penalized and the captain has to work out how to get the referees to pick up on opposition offences (and not spot ours!). If O’Connell can’t get on the right side of the officials then he’s at least got to make sure his team plays to them more effectively.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 2:14am | Report comment
Martyn Williams is definitely out of the Sharks game.
pothale said | June 8th 2009 @ 3:23am | Report comment
Hmmm, so that puts Wallace down for that spot, but I wonder if Geech will play him if he wants him for Game 5.
Agree with Rugby Fan that Fitz and Earls need more game time. I don’t think Earls has an opportunity to play in Test team no matter what he does, so he should just concentrate on delivering on the remainder of the local games. Fitzer has a chance – on the wing. If Bowe has one spot locked down, then it’s between Fitzer/Monye/Halfpenny for the other.
I suspect that Croft has proved himself a lot more than these two. It may come down to a choice of which kind of 6 do the coaches want to have. Ferris has a lot of power in the tackle and put himself about a fair bit in both his matches as well as getting a couple of tries. Croft may be seen as having less punch in the tackle, but more athleticism in the lineout and around the pitch.
I presume O’Connell will not play in the next match, but will feature in Game 5 where he should have the cream of the squad around him. If he can’t perform in that environment, the coaches have a major problem.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 5:21am | Report comment
Andrew Sheridan has put a marker down, as has Jamie Roberts, Brian O’Driscoll and Tommy Bowe. The rest of the tour group has not matched these standards as of yet.
The back row is an interesting area. Williams’ injury provides Wallace with another opportunity but also a conundrum due to the time constraints leading up to the first test. Stephen Ferris has put in some absolutely awesome hits which provides an interesting contrast to the talents of Croft. That the Springboks don’t play a traditional back row might mean the viability of a scenario including the two: Ferris could potentially be accomodated on the openside with Croft at 6. I think that’s unlikely but realistically Jo Worlsey has all but written himself out of the test 22.
I agree about O’Connell. He has not looked sharp, inventive or remotely like a good Lions captain.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 5:24am | Report comment
Pothale, could you offer the websites of a few Irish bookstores – chains preferably. Would be most grateful.
pothale said | June 8th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Very few chains, KO. Hughes & Hughes, Eason’s would be the biggest. Waterstones, Hodges Figgis are two of the biggest but have one location. Best and biggest online bookstore is Kenny’s based in Galway.
The remainder are independent retailers for the most part.
Websites are:www.eason.ie ; http://www.hughesbooks.com; http://www.kennys.ie ; http://www.waterstones.ie; HF don’t have one.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Excellent. Thank you for the guidance and especially the links. Much appreciated.
pothale said | June 8th 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
You’re welcome. Actually Waterstones works off its UK site. And I see they have four stores in Dublin.
i just saw on one of the media websites that Flutey has recovered and is available for Wednesday’s game. It may be a combo of him and Darcy in the 12 spot so, as they may not want to put him under a full 80 minutes just yet. Does he play 13 as well for his club/country? Can’t recall.
Rugby Fan said | June 8th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Flutey is a 12 – some had him down as the likely Test partner alongside BOD before the tour started and Roberts stepped up. Since he hasn’t had a start yet, I suppose there’s a chance they might play him in his regular position.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys/Wales)
14. Shane Williams (Ospreys/Wales)
13. Brian O’Driscoll (Leinster/Ireland)
12. Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster/Ireland)
10. Ronan O’Gara (Munster/Ireland)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys/Wales)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Leinster/Ireland)
7. David Wallace (Munster/Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England)
5. Paul O’Connell (Munster/Ireland) captain
4. Alun-Wyn Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys/Wales)
2. Lee Mears (Bath/England)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
Replacements:
16. Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
17. Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
18. Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England)
19. Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England)
20. Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland)
21. Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England)
22. Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
Williams and Fitzgerald are being given another chance to prove themselves.
O’Gara could have the edge over Stephen Jones.
No Nathan Hines on the bench. Which suggests the most he can hope for is a place on the bench for the 1st test.
Knives Out said | June 8th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Ignore the bottom two. I forgot that there were 3 games left to play prior to the test.
Rugby Fan said | June 8th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
I think POC needed to go out in a strong line-up to see if he can get show he can record a comfortable win as captain. Similarly, Williams & Fitzgerald are in with a lot of Test players so they will have nowhere to hide if they don’t show up. Both Croft & Wallace will want to perform and Wyn-Jones will fancy the chance to show he can partner POC rather than just be back-up. If Mears can’t find his jumpers in that linout then he’ll slip down the pecking order.
Rugby Fan said | June 8th 2009 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
Some people are surprised Flutey is only on the bench of he is actually fit. I suspect Geech wanted to get a proper look at Williams and Fitzgerald and so decided not to included Flutey in an untested centre pairing. He is the back-up for ROG so could come on to replace either him or one of the centres.
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 12:21am | Report comment
Wow! Am surprised he’s going with such a strong line-up this early. Geech avoiding any chance he might be accused of following a tried and trusted route to the tests, it would appear.
PO’C had better perform in this match with the first line talent he should have around him. Didn’t think that BOD would be played again. Can’t see him being used in next two matches, or O’Connell for that matter.
Obviously they want Byrne to slot in since Kearney is being given little chance in the role.
It’s a good opportunity for O’Gara – he’s being paired with the likely text scrum half and has a strong centre combo outside him. Fitzy gets his regular position so he has a chance to shine and obviously the coaches don’t want to give up on Shane yet.
In the back-row, Wallace and Croft are probably both under particular scrutiny, with Croft having to do the little extra to keep Ferris out of the picture.
Looking forward to this one.
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 12:42am | Report comment
Potentially, if the weather is good this game could be a blow out. The Sharks will be missing Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Smit, Carstens, Kankowski, Pienaar, Jacobs and JP. That fantastic depth that SA fans have openly spoken of should be severely tested with fringe Springbok candidates like Jannie du Plessis, Muller, Sykes, Keyser, Kockott and Terblanche still knocking about.
I’m surprised at this selection too. I would have assumed that the Province game would have been the mock test run out. At least this means that the Province team will be quite strong also: Sheridan, Murray/Vickery, Hines, Ferris, Williams, Stephen Jones, Flutey, Bowe and Kearney.
I’ll be watching Roberts and O’Driscoll closely having noted that O’Driscoll referred to the two playing on autopilot in their previous game rather than having a developed understanding, as of yet.
This could be a big game for Adam Jones with Murray and Vickery not yet starring.
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 12:49am | Report comment
Playing on autopilot? Did BOD really say that? Cos of their understanding, or lack of sharpness?
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 1:23am | Report comment
Something similar, essentiallly that the pair were playing off instinct due to their lack of understanding rather than a lack of match fitness. Regarding fitness, it was interesting to read just how tired some of the players were following the first two games following the training camp. The team should be reaching a status quo soon enough.
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 2:05am | Report comment
Sharks – 15 Stefan Terblanche, 14 Chris Jordaan, 13 Andries Strauss, 12 Riaan Swanepoel, 11 Luzuko Vulindlu, 10 Monty Dumond, 9 Rory Kockott, 8 Keegan Daniel, 7 Jean Deysel, 6 Jacques Botes, 5 Johann Muller (c), 4 Steven Sykes, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Skipper Badenhorst, 1 Deon Carstens.
Subs: 16 Craig Burden, 17 Patrick Cilliers, 18 Albert van den Berg, 19 Michael Rhodes, 20 Charl MacLeod, 21 Guy Cronje, 22 Lwazi Mvovo
Good back row, Little else to speak of. Personally, I’m not a fan of the Sharks. I hope the Lions embarass them, spiteful as that sounds.
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 2:08am | Report comment
Southern Kings – 15 Tiger Mangweni, 14 Wylie Human, 13 Frikkie Welsh, 12 De Wet Barry, 11 Ryno Benjamin, 10 Jaco van der Westhuyzen, 9 Francois Hougaard, 8 Darron Nell, 7 Solly Tyibilika, 6 Mpho Mbiyozo, 5 Marco Wentzel, 4 Ross Skeate, 3 Ruan Vermeulen, 2 Derick Kuün, 1 Jaco Engels.
Greater squad members: Simon Westraad, Kevin Buys, Linqile Payi, Heinrich Stride, Josh Fowles, Mzwandile Stick, Elgar Watts, Bevin Fortuin, Henry Grimes, Michael Vermaak
Startling lack of black players there.
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 2:19am | Report comment
Dustbin of Cliches – please use freely after each match.
Lions v Royal XV –
Lions win. “Lions were given a scare by a makey-uppy team who normally play schools rugby.
Lions v Gauteng Lions –
Lions win: “Doesn’t count. A crowd of beat-ups without their coach, missing star players, and the Golden ones were inept anyway.”
Lions v Cheetahs –
Lions win: “you Northern boys were nearly beaten by the S14 team that came last in the league. Boks have nothing to fear. The Lions are getting tired out on provincial teams and won’t be able to compete in the Tests.”
Lions v Sharks –
W: “Sure they were missing most of their star players, and the Lions had to practically play their test team to beat them. O’Driscoll missed a tackle”
L: “Oh MY God, the Lions Test team was beaten by a bunch of hardly ables who didn’t have any of their first team playing. They only came 6th in the S14. O’Driscoll is past it.”
Lions v Southern Kings –
W : “Southern who?”
L: “OH MY GOD! Your boys were beaten by a bunch of schoolgirls, who were trying out rugby for the day. so much for northern rugby and the spinners in the northern press. Now you know why we didn’t hang onto Flutey.”
Test #1 Lions v Boks –
Bok Win: – “This was a run-out by the Boks who took care of the best of the Northern lot with one hand behind their backs, and despite a cheating ref who gave them all the decisions. O’Connell is a wimp.”
Lions win – “the Lions have had 6 matches to get ready for this and the Boks only had one. And they had to play with a 16th man in the shape of the ref who made every decision against them. they were lucky. O’Connell is a thug.”
Test #2 Lions v Boks –
Boks win – “Just goes to show that the Lions are one-trick ponies, and the Southern supremacy shows up the Northerners again. The Boks decided to turn up the heat in this game, and after the lucky win in the last test, it’s clear who’s really the Boss.”
Lions win – “I didn’t watch the game – people not really interested in the Lions – they’ve no spark. The Tri-Nations is the real test. And it doesn’t look good for the saffas who couldn’t beat a bunch of northern boys who had hardly played together and got lucky. Anyway you would think the best of four nations would easily discard the best of one nation – what’s the big deal?”
c 2009. Hemjay Ltd.
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 3:04am | Report comment
At least you’ve given Mr. Zavos some hints guidance for future articles.
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 3:57am | Report comment
Nah – he doesn’t come in here either. It’s safe.
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:03am | Report comment
I noticed that Nick Cain questioned or at least brought about the potential of objectively assessing/questioning the merits of Pierre Spies as a number 8, and not just an athlete. The response from the South African fans has been literally mad crazy. Apparently the Boks are gna’ kill us aka the Lions because they’re so big and strong. No need to think of any more Boks win excuses. The answer is simple – genetics.
Greg Smith said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:26am | Report comment
Lets get cynical ?
Sharks – Young upstarts given valuable experience from a class unit starting to gel – Lions 32 – 22
Coastal XV – New kids on the block will never forget the day they played with hero’s, stars and giants – Lions 89 – 6
Test 1 – Rapid running from a broken field is a basic skill the Boks have mastered in 2009, with good controlled kicking, a world class line out and strong scrum – they have the options to be dynamic & unformulaic – Boks 53 -9
Test 2 – Lions spoiling tactics boil over into frustration as the scoreline stretches and again dirty play soils their dignity a la 1974 (Boks derided as filthy after retaliations cost them a red – Bismarck du Plessis to miss 3N opener on a ban) Boks 37 – 28
Test 3 – Lions go toe-to-toe with the Boks and Bakkies Botha leaves the field with jaw to be re-wired and Pierre Spies receives post match citing amounting to 3 match ban. After 1974 the second dirtiest game in the history of rugby union. Boks 65 – 10
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:35am | Report comment
You’re nothing if not persistent, Greg.
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:37am | Report comment
LOL! Greg you’ve got a good imagination. That would set things up nicely for the next tour in 2021.
What about Southern Kings and Emerging Springboks?
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:42am | Report comment
Saw that piece by Cain, Ko. Scary. The Boks are clear front-runners for the series and should easily get a whitewash. Like the SA journo said in a blog or article recently, if the Boks even lose one match in the series, the coach and staff should resign en masse. Talk about pressure.
Think I’ll just sit back and watch the fun at this point. The Lions can’t lose, no matter what the outcome.
Bad news is that my trip may be in jeopardy cos of business stuff. Am praying it will get sorted.
Greg Smith said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:47am | Report comment
Southern Kings = Coastal XV
Emerging Springboks, 42 – 24
Did you see how everyone ran around Shane Williams ?
Knives Out said | June 9th 2009 @ 4:53am | Report comment
I’ve always been of the opinion that the Lions would have a very good chance. The media – which tends to inform the average fan (i.e. those who don’t actually watch rugby) – have certainly not sat on the fence, and would have us believe that the Boks are great and that a whitewash is inevitable. I’ve never thought that. SA has always had talented players but beyond a certain point potential is irrelevant. The catcall seems to be that they’re the world champs, and that they smashed Australia and England. Me? I think the Boks haven’t been a great team since 1996. They were poor under White prior to the WC, and have been poor since it. SA speaks of having great athletes – I think the UK does too. SA talks of having size – the UK does too. To that extent, although I agree with what you’re saying about the Lions not being able to lose I also think that victory is there to be achieved. Much more so than in 2005.
I hope you get to travel. It would be a marvellous trip. Best of luck with that.
Dublin Dave said | June 9th 2009 @ 5:37am | Report comment
Have the Boks ever whitewashed the Lions? In the two tours in the 60s they won three tests and drew a fourth, twice. But I don’t think they’ve ever done a 100 per cent job on a Lions touring team.
They’ve won the Grand Slam while on tour themselves several times, but not at home. AFAIK
pothale said | June 9th 2009 @ 6:12am | Report comment
But there’s always a first time, Dave. The Boks must win all three or they’re toast – at home and abroad. Imagine the WC winners even losing once to a scratch side of plodders from the Northern Hemisphere. The SH media will have a field day.
Knives Out said | June 10th 2009 @ 4:07am | Report comment
Goodbye Stephen Ferris. The Irish curse strikes again. Terrible news.
pothale said | June 10th 2009 @ 6:26am | Report comment
And Ryan Jones to replace him. Stephen Jones will be in his element. Another Welsh player in the squad and Tom Croft assured of a Test spot. What more could he wish for?
Not even having the option of Ferris on the bench is a big,big blow. Am beginning to get a bit concerned about the training sessions – that’s another injury to a player sustained during training. What the hell are they getting them to do?
Knives Out said | June 10th 2009 @ 6:42am | Report comment
This could turn into another Mike Blair. People keep mentioning that he is out of form, which is true, but if the Lions are struggling with the breakdown then why call up a no.8? Even when he was playing well prior to Wales’ last trip to SA he looked awful on the dry, hard grounds over there. He is built for slow, wet grounds, i.e. NZ and Wales. This is a big blow. Ferris looked physically awesome.
pothale said | June 10th 2009 @ 6:47am | Report comment
And the hardest tackler in the squad. The stories about the Irish squad not wanting to get into a tackle session with him are funny but true. He doesn’t hold back. And that may have been his undoing.
pothale said | June 10th 2009 @ 7:17am | Report comment
By the way, KO, don’t know whether you might have spotted a small snippet of news about two new coaches that Wasps have hired for next season. Along with Trevor Woodman, is a guy called John Mccloskey, a Belfast-born Gaelic football coach of some renown with Derry and Armagh, winning national titles with both. He comes in as skills coach on a permanent basis having worked on a part-time basis last year with the club. His transfer of coaching skills from GAA to rugby follows a pattern set by a South African team whose name escapes me, who hired in a Gaelic coach about a year or so ago to develop ball handling, aerial skills and kicking.
Will be interesting to see if others will follow suit. Tom Humphries will not be happy.
Knives Out said | June 10th 2009 @ 7:23am | Report comment
Thanks. I did indeed read that. Strikes me as an intelligent move. I’m surprised that people haven’t got AFL or Gaelic football linked men in before. I also read with interest that Woodman turned down the role of forwards coach with the Wallabies. That would have been a nice slice of ironic pie had he taken the post. Poacher turned gamekeeper perhaps.
More pressing is the Ferris issue. This really upsets the squad balance. I’m stunned, frankly.
Rugby Fan said | June 10th 2009 @ 7:24am | Report comment
I know Ryan Jones was tipped by many people for the original squad but I agree that, if he finds any form at all, he is more likely to push Heaslip for the no.8 spot than offer decent cover at no.6 where he had a poor 6N. I can’t help think he was chosen more because he is familiar with the Lions set-up and knows the Welsh coaches rather than because he has shown any real signs of magic lately.
For all the talk of a relatively injury-free squad, there seem to be a few players who are on the brink of breaking down if they take the wrong knock including Flutey, M. Williams, Halfpenny, Earls and, probably, Ryan Jones himself. The loss of so many Irish boys – especially O’Leary, Flannery and now Ferrris – must put a dent in how McGeechan originally envisaged playing.
pothale said | June 10th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Yep. However, Mears has come through for Flannery. Phillips seems to be stabilising – though I’ll wait to see how does tonight with an unfamiliar O’Gara again. Ferris is the big blow – and the Boks will take notice. Watch Broussow slip into the Boks squad quietly sometime before the 20th, or at least for the second test.
R Jones and AW Jones have both been used in the 6 role before by Wales, so there may be some juggling yet.
Knives Out said | June 10th 2009 @ 9:42pm | Report comment
Halfpenny now departs. The Cardiff 6 is now the Cardiff 4.
pothale said | June 10th 2009 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Well there were always going to be injuries…. Not too worried about Halfpenny, there’s cover for him with Hook being another kicker. And he’s young enough to go again. Rushed back too soon methinks.
Knives Out said | June 10th 2009 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
The staff aren’t bringing any one in.
The total injury list stands at: Flannery, Quinlan, Ferris, O’Leary, Shanklin and Halfpenny. (Have I missed any?) These players, if fit, would have been very useful tourists.
pothale said | June 11th 2009 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
Well Quinlan was fit. He just had that little ‘hands across the face’ issue…… and we got Croft instead – a plus it would appear in most people’s books.
Saturday’s team will be interesting.
O’Connell and O’Driscoll are hardly likely to play again, though BOD might for a period.
15. Kearney/Hook
14. Monye/Kearney
13. Earls/BOD
12. Riki Flutey/Hook
11. Bowe
10. Jones
9. Blair/Ellis
8. Andy Powell/Ryan Jones
7. Williams (if fit)??
6. AW Jones/R Jones
5 Shaw/Hines
4 O’Callaghan
3. Jenkins
2. Rees
1. Murray
Knives Out said | June 11th 2009 @ 9:33pm | Report comment
I’m presuming that Sheridan and Murray will prop? Unless of course, McGeechan wants to see Vickery play another 80 mins.
I think definite starters are Rees, Hines, M. Williams (if fit), Powell, Ellis, Bowe, Flutey, Monye and Kearney.
Knives Out said | June 11th 2009 @ 9:35pm | Report comment
On to another topic – definite Lions test starters:
1.
2. Mears
3.
4.
5. O’Connell
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12. Roberts
13. O’Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
I honestly think these players are the only nailed on starters.
pothale said | June 11th 2009 @ 9:48pm | Report comment
I’d add in Wallace at 7. But Williams could disrupt that if he comes through on Saturday.
Surely Croft at 6 with Ferris gone?
You don’t Phillips has got the 9 jersey? Was wondering about that myself. Ellis is nice and nippy and niggly, but Phillips power is likely to see him through. Don’t see Blair getting in.
Not sure how you rated O’Gara last night. He took his passes well, tried a couple of breaks himself and wasn’t particularly targeted in the tackle stakes. With the number of grubber kicks he made in the second half, I got the impression he was under instructions to see if Byrne and Williams could come through on these. BOD was quite anonymous for parts of the match, but his interventions for two of the tries were class. Again, he may have been deliberately ghosting to see how those around him performed.
Knives Out said | June 11th 2009 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
You’re right, Croft is probably a certainty.
I thought that Phillips was quite bad last night, or at least during the 1st half he was. His vision for the game is lacking and his passing was ponderous and predictable. It’s all well and good being a great physical speciman but du Preez is so quick of thought that if picked Phillips would have to have 3 blinders in a row in order to gain parity. IMO, Phillips is simply not a good scrum half. I’d much prefer Peel to be in SA.
If Stephen Jones does the basics well on Saturday (if he plays, of course) then I am assuming that he will be the test 10. I thought O’Gara was OK last night, but nothing special.
All in all I think the potential back division looks sharp. If the breakdown issue is resolved then we could see some nifty interplay. One thing that has gone unsaid in the media is that Burger plays in a completely different manner to Brussouw or Deysel. To that extent, the ruck contest should be a different beast in the tests.
Rugby Fan said | June 11th 2009 @ 10:09pm | Report comment
Interesting article where Jake White & Eddie Jones pick apart elements of the Lions’ tactics:
http://www.keo.co.za/2009/06/11/mcgeechans-selection-blunder/
On the selection of centres, Geech did of course select Shanklin so he had in mind another physical player. It’s difficult to know who else fits that bill: Welsh & Irish candidates are mostly already on tour or injured. Shane Horgan? A fine player but not an ideal choice. I understand Tindall was carrying an injury and none of the other England centres (Hipkiss, Tait etc) can play like Roberts. I won’t even mention Jamie Noon. Erinle is big and powerful and Geech will know him from his Wasps days but the step up to the Lions would be too much for a man who wasn’t even a regular first team player for Leicester. I don’t know the Scottish centres well enough but I can’t recall that being a strong position.
I’d like to see D’Arcy, Flutey & Hook getting more game time to give more options if something does happen to BOD or Roberts. I don’t think anyone would be happy seeing Earls or Fitzgerald line up there in a Test.
Knives Out said | June 11th 2009 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
Thanks Eddie and Jake for pointing out something we didn’t know. I have mixed feelings about Jones but White really is a know-nothing-know-it-all as made abundantly clear by his claim that the Lions pack versus the Royal XV would likely be the test pack. I doubt that it’s a coincidence that he hasn’t been offered a job since his Springbok retiremement.
What White probably doesn’t know, as you point out Rugby Fan, is that there is not an abundance of big 12s in the UK. Hipkiss has been in barrelling form for Leicester at 12 but he only played there due to Mauger’s injury. Personally, I would have selected him ahead of Earls just for his physical presence but that’s irrelevant now. The Scottish 12, Graeme Morrison, is a big ol’ boy but he’s not that much of a handful. Neither is Andrew Henderson.
pothale said | June 12th 2009 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
Lions XV v Western Province:
15 R Kearney (Leinster and Ireland);
14 T Bowe (Ospreys and Ireland),
13 K Earls (Munster and Ireland),
12 R Flutey (Wasps and England),
11 U Monye (Harlequins and England);
10 S Jones (Scarlets and Wales),
9 H Ellis (Leicester and England);
8 A Powell (Cardiff Blues and Wales
7 M Williams (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
6 J Worsley (Wasps and England),
5 N Hines (Perpignan and Scotland),
4. D O’Callaghan (Munster and Ireland),
3. P Vickery (Wasps and England, capt),
2. M Rees (Scarlets and Wales),
1 A Sheridan (Sale Sharks and England),
Replacements: R Ford (Edinburgh and Scotland), E Murray (Northampton and Scotland), S Shaw (Wasps and England), T Croft (Leicester and England), M Blair (Edinburgh and Scotland), J Hook (Ospreys and Wales), G D’Arcy (Leinster and Ireland).
pothale said | June 12th 2009 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
The two undercooked players will be Ryan Jones and Gordon Darcy. Jones will play on Wednesday but not likely for first test. And I presume Darcy is the same. Clearly he is back up for Flutey/Roberts and nothing more.
Stephen Jones needs to be deliver a commanding performance and will probably seal his place.
Ditto Bowe
Earls gets a run-out and will probably feature against Southern Kings alongside Darcy.
Monye might have to compete with Fitz for the other wing spot. Depends on who gets used on Wed – Fitz or Shane. One of them will be on the bench.
Powell probably plays tomorrow and Wed.
Ellis may push Phillips for his spot.
Kearney might get used as a utility over Fitz on the test bench
Martyn Williams gets his last chance to dislodge Wallace. (Not sure if Wallace is carrying a slight injury though)
Worsely to fight off Croft but won’t make it.
Hines to push AWJ to partner O’Connell
Donncha plays tomorrow and Wed.
Front row? KO can supply.
Knives Out said | June 12th 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Disaster that Murray isn’t playing. He is a far better scrummager than Vickery. Looks like Adam Jones is the test front runner now. I was really hoping to see Murray and Hines play in the tests.
I’m looking forward to seeing Powell and Williams play together.
pothale said | June 13th 2009 @ 2:54am | Report comment
But not Ryan Jones. Is he trying to set a new record for the shortest Lion career ever. 24 hours after arrival he’d on the plane home again. Who convinced him he was okay to play over in Wales? Or did he convince himself?
Knives Out said | June 13th 2009 @ 3:02am | Report comment
I’m speechless but not actually that bothered.
Knives Out said | June 13th 2009 @ 3:04am | Report comment
I bet they won’t call anyone up.
pothale said | June 13th 2009 @ 6:12am | Report comment
Who have they got?
Shane Jennings? Leamy? Haskell? Yer fella Robson? Hobson? Who’s 6 for Scotland – Strokosch?
Knives Out said | June 13th 2009 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Strokosch is injured, I believe. Not sure about Jason White. Robshaw is in Argentina and Leamy is probably in a pub in Tipperary. The ‘mistake’ with Jones has cost the Lions too much time.
Rugby Fan said | June 13th 2009 @ 7:18am | Report comment
McGeechan has apparently said he won’t call anyone else up now. It really does seem as if he wants to be completely fair to his original squad selection and not be seen to fly in a replacement in the hope of “upgrading” a position. Ford, Croft, Blair and, possibly, Hook seem to count as original members because the guys they replaced didn’t fly out. In Hook’s case, there was a change of heart over the loss of Shanklin. You can see that thinking in the way he is treating D’Arcy. You would think that one of BOD’s regular partners would be a contender if anything happened to Roberts but Geech seems to want to give the opportunity to Flutey & Hook first.
The reason he called up Jones is because he knew the player had already been on a Lions tour and could handle the environment quickly. Now I suspect he’ll call on Worsley to do his main duty as cover at 6 along with whichever of Alun Wyn Jones or Hines isn’t in the Test squad. After all, following the Western province game, there are only two non-Test games left. I think he believes that by keeping the squad lean, he can build a good team spirit and be confident that everyone knows the calls and gameplan. That’s why Earls & Shane Williams have been given more chances and why someone like Armitage hasn’t been called up for Halfpenny.
I can understand that reasoning but it will leave the team vulnerable if we get an injury toll in the back row or midfield up to and including the first Test. Let’s say Flutey’s injury flairs up on Saturday and puts him out of the game and then Roberts and BOD take hits in the first Test which send both home. That would leave us with a midfield of D’Arcy & Hook for the last two Tests and Earls partnering someone for the Tuesday game against Emerging Springboks. It couldn’t be Fitzgerald or Phillips if they are 1st team players so it would have to be really makeshift unless someone was called up. What price a last-minute stop-gap like Mike Catt being drafted in if he happens to be drinking in a nearby pub?
In the back row, Geech might think his next injury risk is Martyn Williams which would leave Worsley as cover for both Croft & Wallace. On that basis, he might have decided to holding off on calling a replacement for Jones because he thinks he might need an open side more than a blind side flanker/no. 8. However it plays out, I don’t envisage any replacement called up from now to have a chance at a Test spot unless there is a catastrophic injury toll.
pothale said | June 13th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
good analysis Rugby F. Had been wondering about the slightly ‘out in the cold’ positioning of Darcy but that makes sense – and if he came out on that basis, then hopefully he’s not smarting too much.
Actually, I think that both Flutey and Roberts are both carrying injuries. Roberts after the last game, and I’m not sure Flutey has shook off his earlier injury. Wait and see. If they do get taken out after first Test, then it’s either Hook or Darcy with the latter the more experienced and natural fit to O’Driscoll, but Hook with the bit more zest. Unless they use Fitzgerald in a switching role with O’Driscoll, and they still have Monye and Williams for the wings.
The bigger risk is if Wallace gets injured, with a 80% Williams having to fill-in.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
So the team is sorted for tomorrow with Donncha O’Callaghan picked as captain. am pleased for him as it was clear very early on that he was unlikely to feature in the test team. He genuinely was taken aback and highly pleased to be given the armband. Nice touch by Geech to keep the second troops happy.
Not sure what to make of the selection of some of the players. Can’t see any of the starting XV starting again on Saturday, although maybe some of the bench could. Maybe Hook might be picked for the bench.
There’s no confirmation on whether Blair will start yet. What are the odds that your 3 scrum halves would all be carrying injuries in the Test week?
I see that PdV has – as predicted – quietly called up Brussow as cover for Burger, even though he mightn’t be a direct replacement.
Finally, in advance of Geech’s selection committee meeting tomorrow evening after the match, I thought I’d give him a few hints as to who I think he should include in the Test team – in case he’s willing to listen.
1.Murray
2. Mears
3.Sheridan
4. Hines
5. O’Connell
6. AW Jones
7. Wallace
8. Heaslip
9. Ellis (if fit)
10. O’Gara
11. Fitzgerald
12. Roberts
13. O’Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
Phillips, Kearney, S Jones, Croft, Vickery, Ford, M Williams
Colin N said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Pothale, I’m surprised you included Ellis and Sheridan in your side and Alun-Wyn Jones at Blindside. What was your thinking behind those picks? Personally, I might be inclined to pick Sheridan at loose-head as well, for the extra scrummaging power, but I would definitely have Jenkins on the bench as he can cover both prop positions and has an excellent alround game and almost acts as an extra back-row.
I would have Croft at 6 as I feel he is better in all facets of the game, than Wyn Jones. I like Ellis, but I don’t think he’s played that great on tour, which makes me think Geech will pick Phillips, who despite his slow service, has shown physicality and sniped around the fringes.
I’m gutted for Flutey as I thought he was the leading contender for the 12 shirt going into the tour, but his injury has really hampered his chances, as well as the form of Roberts. He looked really cautious at the weekend
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
Colin – I have preferred Ellis over Philips so far over the tour. Phillips did well in his last starting match but overall I don’t think he has the speed – Ellis is a lot more nippy and prickly – something for de Preez to think about.
AWJ has been playing a binder in terms of form, and I think he should be in the team. He’s too similar to be playing the middle as O’Connell, and I’d like to have Hines Bark and bite in there. So I put AWJ at 6 where’s he played before and will add something to the back row, more than Croft will – who I think has faded in the last couple of matches. He hasn’t performed to the expectation of hype certainly.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
And I like Sheridan a lot.
Knives Out said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
Bonjour fellow NH rugby hooligans and mummy’s boys. Are we all suitably chastised by Hemjay or are we brave enough to even show our forum personas?
What a horrible looking team for today.
I have an inkling that the Boks will win the forward exchanges and that our backs will win the back line battle.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
I didn’t know we had been chastised. Anyway, moving on.
the team today is inevitably going to fit into the ‘dregs’ section of the squad, though I think that’s unfair for some of the players. O’Callaghan, Darcy, Earls, Flutey haven’t really done anything wrong.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
hello?
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
This is all very strange. Some of my posts don’t go up at all. Others appear after a while with the message ‘awaiting moderation’, and some go up like normal.
You been having any problems posting, KO?
Knives Out said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Just seen the Boks team. Looks pretty strong. Brussouw has been included, but how much time has he spent in camp?
I think the Lions have the edge in the backs.
Knives Out said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
No. Perhaps your email isn’t typed correctly. That’s happened to me before and I’ve actually typed .con instead of .com.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
I just knew Brussouw would be picked – PdV as ever not willing to admit he was wrong in his initial selection, slips him in quietly. Length of time in camp will be his only drawback – he’ll be aiming to be a major thorn in Lions side, and is the only one with experience of having gone up against them on the tour – a major plus compared to the other players.
Hadn’t realised kick-off was in an hour’s time. Am off to find welcoming pub.
Knives Out said | June 18th 2009 @ 9:44pm | Report comment
Indeed, what IS McGeechan thinking? No Hines or Shaw? Sacrebleu!
pothale said | June 21st 2009 @ 1:01am | Report comment
Well – it just didn’t happen for us today. The amount of penalties given away by Vickery on the scrum was just appalling. Don’t know what was going on, but bringing on Adam Jones seemed to settle things. Why the hell didn;t the management act sooner.
Came back into the game much better in the second half. Great contest – thought we were going to steal it at the end. But certainly gives me hope for the second test, if we can sort out the scrum issue permanently.
Our back-line certainly dominated and need to be brought in a lot more in the next game.
Well done, SA. Can’t wait for round two.
Colin N said | June 21st 2009 @ 1:24am | Report comment
pothale,
I think the referee had a bit of a shocker regarding the scrums. The ‘Beast’ didn’t scrummage straight and thus should have been penalised. I think Jones is a bit smaller, so the ‘Beast’ couldn’t ‘bore in.’ But nevermind.
I’m a bit gutted, but it was a superb game and a fantastic comeback. It’s ironic that all the talk going into the game was about the breakdown, an area in which we dominated, but it was the set piece that let us down. However, there are plenty of positives going into next week, Roberts and O’Driscoll were again superb and the likes of Croft and Williams, when he came on, were good linkmen.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 1:42am | Report comment
I have mixed feelings: fury and a cool detachment – c’est la vie, and all that. McGeechan’s loyalty to Vickery is shocking. Hate to say I told myself, but I did. The Springboks smashed the forwards, and our backs dominated. The notion of out running the SA forward pack was patently silly before the match even begun and has been badly exposed. What perplexes me is why the referee would choose to ignore the fact that Mtawarira was boring in, and also why at the end he refused to card a Springbok. Also, why did the referee refuse to penalise SA when the Lions had a clear 2nd half ascendcy in the scrum? All in all the Springbok vanguard was broken again and again. However, their forward pack meant business and their kicking was very accurate. Changes must be made for next week. A hesitant Stephen Jones can go, as can the bloated has-been Vickery. Adam Jones and O’Gara can slot in and things should be better. SA will definitely be better. The Lions must match that. I think we can. The NZ side of 05 would have smashed the Lions today. This series is winnable.
Pothale said | June 21st 2009 @ 2:18am | Report comment
The Boks will be better. Jones to start and major highlighting of Beast boring in to be done media. O’Gara in. Kearney in. And possibly Ellis on sooner if Phillips doesn’t start firing ball out a lot sooner. God – - he’s slow. I’d have stringer in sooner.
Colin N said | June 21st 2009 @ 2:38am | Report comment
KO, Don’t you think that we were had the upper hand at the breakdown, thought? Certainly, South Africa had the upper hand at the set piece, but at the breakdown ,we at least had parity.
I do believe that Vickery’s form had been good on this tour and therefore deserved to start, the same definitely applied to Mears, also. And, do you think that Vickery wasn’t helped by the height of Mears when the Beast bore in? When Rees and Jones came on the scrum improved hugely, and I don’t think that was just down to Jones. I was very impressed with Rees today, both set-piece and in the loose, so why couldn’t he have played like that all tour. I also thought the lifters didn’t do a very good job today. One incident stuck in my mind when attempting to challenge South African ball ,when O’Connell went to the back of the lineout and Wyn Jones looked like he was the lifter.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 2:53am | Report comment
I think the Lions had parity at the breakdown, I’m not sure they had ascendcy, IMO, Colin.
I don’t think Vickery has ever played as well as Jones has this tour. Jones has been consistent and he improved the scrum immediately. Mears played basically for his lineout work, but Rees was geenrally solid. My main issue with him is that he tends to get isolated as a carrier, and loses his discipline, as we saw with that wild punch. I’m not sure if I’d start him but Jones has to come in.
I really do think that the ref had an appalling game, as did the touch judges, but as is the norm these days, if one mentions the ref as a factor the theme of being a sore loser tends to take root. SA played very well in the 1st half, or at least their pack did, the backs were invisible apart from Pienaar.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:14am | Report comment
I think today proved a point that me and KO argued over a few weeks ago: Lee Mears is a desperately weak scrummager. Vickery looked inept today, but he would never have been exposed so badly alongside Steve Thompson. The English scrum has done nothing since Mears came into the team, and now it’s cost the Lions too.
I thought the Lions did okay at the breakdown, but it seems to me that this Lions team is an either/or bunch: they can either muscle up in the pack and so defend better against the maul (but lack the pace to get to the breakdown quickly enough as we saw in Bloem and PE) or forego the beef and get buffeted around in the tight (but have sufficient pace to get to contact and protect the ball).
The Boks can do both. They have size and pace. It seems the Lions players only have one of the two.
Colin N said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:32am | Report comment
“they can either muscle up in the pack and so defend better against the maul (but lack the pace to get to the breakdown quickly enough as we saw in Bloem and PE) or forego the beef and get buffeted around in the tight (but have sufficient pace to get to contact and protect the ball).”
That’s an interesting theory. It’s about getting the right balance, though. When Jones, Rees and Williams came on, there was a balance and the Lions seemed to dominate all facets of the game. Obviously, that won’t completely happen next week, but the replacements changed the game and has given Geech ‘food for thought.’ Whether it was the South African replacements that caused a disruption in their game, I’m not sure, but the South African replacements didn’t make an impact off the bench and the first XV certainly aren’t going to last the full 80 next week.
On another point, South Africa looked shattered after about 60 or 70 minutes, yet a lot of this talk is how are the Lions going to cope playing at altitude? Yet, judging by today, surely South Africa are going to have concerns?
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:35am | Report comment
‘I think today proved a point that me and KO argued over a few weeks ago: Lee Mears is a desperately weak scrummager. Vickery looked inept today, but he would never have been exposed so badly alongside Steve Thompson. The English scrum has done nothing since Mears came into the team, and now it’s cost the Lions too.’
No, that’s totally incorrect. As soon as Jones came on the scrum was perfectly fine. Vickery – who you had previously dubbed as a world class scrummager – was an utter shambles, as I suggested that he might be prior to the game. And I have already told you that Thompson is not, and was never a great scrummager. Mears has been part of an excellent club scrummage for years. Vickery cost the Lins the game seeing as he got popped and subsequently penalised, not Mears.
‘The Boks can do both. They have size and pace. It seems the Lions players only have one of the two.’
That statement is open to conjecture seeing as we haven’t seen the Lions big men on a pitch with the Boks. There is no doubt that the next two games will be harder, but if the Lions can gain parity in the set piece then their backs can easily out play the SA backs. What I find wonderfully ironic is that SA won through playing a perfectly executed NH type of game. Spies was basically invisible and the backs, Pienaar aside, were easily contained. This is nothing like NZ 2005, these Boks are beatable.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:41am | Report comment
The Lions scrum improved somewhat when Jones replaced Vickery. It improved even more rapidly when Rees replaced Mears. (Admittedly, though, it’s not always fair to compare starters with substitutes given that the latter face tired opponents).
As for Vickery: he has proven himself to be a world-class scrummager over a number of years. One bad game doesn’t change that. It was Vickery packing down at tight-head in a dominant England scrum against the Australians, French and South Africans in the knockout stages of the World Cup’07. The difference between that English pack and the present one? Lee Mears.
Mears might have held his own at a club level, but this is a different standard altogether.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:50am | Report comment
‘As for Vickery: he has proven himself to be a world-class scrummager over a number of years. One bad game doesn’t change that. It was Vickery packing down at tight-head in a dominant England scrum against the Australians, French and South Africans in the knockout stages of the World Cup’07. The difference between that English pack and the present one? Lee Mears.’
That is without doubt the silliest thing I have ever read in my life.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 21st 2009 @ 5:56am | Report comment
I’m afraid it’s the truth, KO. The England scrum has suffered from Regan (a genuinely strong scrummager) being replaced by Mears, and from Simon Shaw(one of the strongest scrummaging locks in world rugby) being replaced by Kennedy/Borthwick/whoever. England lack grunt at 2 and 4.
Even if we agree to disagree about Mears’ scrummaging, I think we can both agree that his throwing was abject today. He was selected for his darts, and he didn’t even hit the board. I think the occasion got to him.
Rees ought to come in for the next test. And Rory Best ought to be a very angry man – he should be in South Africa.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 6:04am | Report comment
Let me lay this down to you, Viscount – England never had a technically world class scrummage during their ‘golden period’. The pack was often badly out scrummaged by France and Italy. Rowntree and White were the best scrummaging props in England during that period, hence England’s best forward shoves came when they played together. Phil Vickery has never been a world class scrummager, and no coach has ever labelled him as such. His talents lie elsewhere and always have. Further, Lee Mears has very little to do with the current English malaise. Vickery does. Is it just a coincidence that the Wasps scrum has been so erratic during his reign in the 3 jersey? That the scrum was perfect when Jones came on merely confirms my point. Also, size is irrelevant to hooking. Mears and Regan are both 100kg and the height difference is 2 cm. Now, that you have mentioned the English pack lacking grutn at 4 also means that you must recognise that the Lions pack lacked grunt at 4 today. So why blame Mears? Have you ever played in the front row? I’m guessing not otherwise you would have recognised Steve Thompsons’s scrummaging inadequacies.
The lineout was a mess but I didn’t expect much more from the Paul O’Connell show. Tom Croft should have been calling the shots. And yes, Rory Best should be an angry man. I’ve never seen him punch a player. That brain explosion and the immature boot of Stephen Jones could potentially be seen to have cost the Lions 6 points.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 21st 2009 @ 6:33am | Report comment
You are re-writing history. England’s scrum was consistently competitive from 2000-8. They out-scrummaged France, Australia and South Africa in 2007 with Phil Vickery at tight-head. They blew away South Africa at Twickenham in 2004. They blew away Australia at Twickenham in 2004 and 2006. Italy occasionally put the squeeze on during these years, but the England scrum never, ever buckled like the Lions scrum did today.
Phil Vickery has been consistently solid for ten years at Test level. The truth is that two English tight-heads have been splintered alongside Mears since the Autumn – Stevens in the Australia game, and Vickery today. It never happened to either of them when they packed down alongside Mark Regan.
Regan, incidentally, is three inches taller than Mears. That’s 7.5 cms, not the 2 cms you claim. This height differential is important because it makes it easier for opponents to work in tandem to isolate the tight-head. That’s precisely what happened today.
The lack of grunt in the second row is an issue, but I’m afraid you beggar belief by seeking to apportion all the blame on the tight-head and locks and none at all on your precious Mears.
Steve Thompson was not a good technical scrummager, but he has improved immensely since moving to France. Often, also, his sheer bulk helped to hide his deficiencies.
Finally, it is completely ludicrous to assert that Tom Croft should have been “calling the shots”. Croft has never called the shots in his entire career. Ben Kay does his all his thinking at Leicester. Paul O’Connell has been one of the world’s finest lineout exponents for the past five years and it was entirely appropriate that carried out the role today. He kept his nerve. Mears did not.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 7:03am | Report comment
You ignore the key question. Have you ever played in the front row?
Blowing away SA and Australia inconsistently is hardly a sign of greatness. I can think of various games when Marconnet has had Vickery on the ropes, and Perugini, and Milloud, and Lo Cicero… Top level scrummagers, i.e. the Italians, Argentines and French have always troubled England. Fact. England had a very good scrum, but not a great scrum.
‘Phil Vickery has been consistently solid for ten years at Test level.’
I thought he was a world class scrummager? There is a vast difference. Jason Leonard was solid, Rodrigo Roncero is destructive. See the difference? Gethin Jenkins is solid, Carl Hayman is destructive. Again, do you see what I did there?
‘Phil Vickery has been consistently solid for ten years at Test level. The truth is that two English tight-heads have been splintered alongside Mears since the Autumn – Stevens in the Australia game, and Vickery today. It never happened to either of them when they packed down alongside Mark Regan.’
You mean since Steve Borthwick took over the 4 jersey? Must be a coincidence. And you can account for every single game that Regan played for England with Vickery and Stevens?
The reason Vickery was popped is because Mtawarira bored in at an angle. If he had scrummaged straight then Vickery would have just been pushed backwards by a stornger man. Your Mears theory is laughable. I’m afraid you beggar belief by seeking to apportion all the blame on the Mears and none at all on the locks and your precious Vickery. I’ve already said this, but that the scrum was utterly fine when Jones came on and that utterly pulverises your argument, or lack of, I might add.
Btw, It is, of course, highly contradictory to apportion blame to Borthwick and Kennedy for the English woes, as you previously did, and then suggest that the lightweight Alun-Wyn Jones must be immune from all criticism for today’s performance. Last time I checked Wales and Ireland were hardly big hitters in the scrum department.
‘Steve Thompson was not a good technical scrummager, but he has improved immensely since moving to France. Often, also, his sheer bulk helped to hide his deficiencies.’
How is this? Any proof? I thought Thompson was a world class scrummager? If he has only improved upon reaching France then anybody with any intelligence might suggest that you are implying that he was not a good technical scrummager during his period in England. No? Bulk doesn’t hide anything in the scrum otherwise Census Johnston, John Hayes and Neemia Tialata would be all time great.
‘Finally, it is completely ludicrous to assert that Tom Croft should have been “calling the shots”. Croft has never called the shots in his entire career. Ben Kay does his all his thinking at Leicester. Paul O’Connell has been one of the world’s finest lineout exponents for the past five years and it was entirely appropriate that carried out the role today. He kept his nerve. Mears did not.’
It worked for England during the 6N, especially since a lot of Croft’s jumping was reactive. Also, seeing as you probably haven’t ever played in the forwards, it is worth me letting you know that the line out is a machine, so to single out a player, as you have done with Mears, but won’t allow me to do with Vickery, is both illogical and incorrect. Go and join a rugby club, Viscount. You’ll learn a lot.
N.B. It depends where you seek the respective heights of Regan and Mears. The Bath website lists him as 1.75m, 3cm short of Regan’s 1.78m. Wowzer.
Greg Smith said | June 21st 2009 @ 7:15am | Report comment
Win for the Boks. British & Irish Lions are rubbish. You have to agree. The best ‘festival rugby’ team (Lions) lost to a team that’s the furthest possible thing from a ‘festival rugby’ side.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 21st 2009 @ 7:33am | Report comment
Your comments lack any sense of balance or reason.
1. Sylvain Marconnet is a tight-head. So is Vickery. The two have never packed down against each other. It’s surely advisable not to make such elementary mistakes if you want to be taken seriously.
2. What earthly difference does it make whether a chap has played in the front row or not? If only people with direct experience are permitted to comment, then we might as well all go home now. You’re happy to comment on, for instance, Mike Phillips despite having (one assumes) no experience of playing at scrum-half, itself a specialist position.
3. I said that the English scrum was “consistently competitive”. I did not say that it was great. It was very good (as you say), and now it’s average. I think Mears is partly (though not completely) responsible for that.
4. I did accept that AWJ must bear some part of the responsibility. I stated precisely that. Do try to read and filter before pressing “Reply”.
5. You’re right. Beast turning in is precisely why Vickery was popped. But this happens in every match. Props will try what they can get away with. Normally a tight-head and hooker together are strong enough to resist such pressure. Mears and Vickery weren’t. The latter must take his share of the blame, yes, but so too must Mears.
6. Jones improved the scrum. That is startlingly obvious, and I have happily stated as much. It was equally obvious that Rees improved the scrum. Why are you so loathe to admit that?
7. Regarding Thompson, he has spoken at length of how the demands of the Top 14 have helped him to improve his scrummaging. If you watched his devastating performance for Brive at Worcester, then’d you know what I’m talking about. Hooker, incidentally, is a much more difficult position to analyse than prop for the simple reason that the hookers are hidden from observation. We can see what’s happening to a prop in the scrum; it’s more difficult to see what’s happening to a hooker. Hayes, Tialata and Johnston are all – and I shouldnt really have to point this out – props, and the technical demands on them are greater than the technical demands on a hooker.
8. No, it did not “work for England” in the 6N. This is complete ignorance. Steve Borthwick calls the English lineout. Croft does what Borthwick tells him to. At Leicester, he does what Kay tells him to. The notion that a complete novice should run the Lions lineout on his debut is just complete fantasy.
9. Perhaps you mean not that Croft should have run the lineout but that he should have been used more? Perhaps. But would you have backed Mears to find anybody on today’s form?
9. Again, you are distorting my words. I have singled out several players, Mears, Vickery and AWJ among them. You are happy to single out AWJ and Vickery but, for some bizarre reason that I cannot hope to grasp, have placed a protective field around Mears.
10. Mears is not a terrible scrummager. He’s just not a terribly good one. We need a little more at this level, I’m afraid.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
1. ‘Sylvain Marconnet is a tight-head. So is Vickery. The two have never packed down against each other. It’s surely advisable not to make such elementary mistakes if you want to be taken seriously.’
Oh my goodness, you’ve done it again. Nearly every time you come on here you say something utterly ludicrous. I salute you. Marconnet can play loose and tight, but has actually played the majority of his games on the loose head, where in fact he started his career. Great stuff, Viscount. Marconnet and de Villiers anyone? I’m pretty comfortable with my French propping history, thank you very much.
2. Passing comment on Mike Phillip’s slow service does not require somebody to have played scrum half because it is something that occures openly, although as it happens I did play 4 years of scrum half up to the age of 15. Front row play is an experience based business and is something that isn’t obvious to the untrained eye. If it was so easy to judge then referees wouldn’t make so many bad calls.
3 & 4. That’s a bit more measured, well done. Could have been said a little earlier, though. Btw, you didn’t specifically mention AWJ, you merely referred to 2nd row grunt. Also, you did say that Vickery and Thompson were ‘world class’ and ‘very good’ respectively (or something similar) and regularly dominated teams etc.. Surely it’s a bit of a withdrawal to go from that to merely ‘competitive’?
5. How can Mears have any effect on Vickery being popped? Please explain.
6. I’m not loathe to admit that Rees helped, but by that point both starting Springbok props were off so it is hard to accurately judge his impact. The Wales scrum has hardly been any great shakes and that has regularly contained the Jenkins, Rees, A. Jones and A.W. Jones. The startling point is this parallel: Vickery and Mear play – the scrum is horrible, Jones and Mears play – the scrum is strong. Case closed.
7. ‘Hooker, incidentally, is a much more difficult position to analyse than prop for the simple reason that the hookers are hidden from observation.’
How can you single out Mears if this is true and you haven’t experienced the hooking position? In any case, Thompson may well be improved but I find it perplexing that you would laud his tight impact for England and yet admit he had technical issues. You cannot survive at test level simply by being big, you survive with technique. And actually, test level propping is not hugely different from test level hooking if you have that technique. 15 years ago, yes. Not now.
8 & 9. Croft’s reactive jumping DID work for England. Borthwick did not call the defensive lineouts, Croft stood at the front and simply jumped. Why shouldn’t he be charged with running a lineout? Matfield openly admits that his jumping is completely reactive and depends on how he perceives his opposition during the match. Btw, I can’t find any reference to AWJ or O’Connell.
10. Based on what evidence?
Rugby Fan said | June 21st 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
I’m going to agree with the Viscount here and, not that it should be worth a damn in the opinion stakes, I’m a hooker.Vickery was penalized on numerous occasions but he didn’t suddenly become a powder-puff prop overnight. I don’t recognize this description of him as a consistently poor scrummager. What happened in that first Test is reminiscent of Andre Watson’s performance in the 2003 World Cup Final when he took against Woodman and Vickery. Obviously the Lions scrum didn’t have a clear edge over the Boks as England did over Australia and may indeed have been weaker but I was having trouble with Lawrence’s interpretation.
The issue for me is that, just as in 2003, you have to work it out on the pitch or change the personnel because there is no use hoping that a ref will change his interpretation once he believes he’s seen something. The South African commentators think O’Connell got up Lawrence’s nose but even a captain of the calibre of Johnson couldn’t influence Watson in 2003. I think the Lions’ scrum should have been on red alert after the second penalty but they didn’t attempt to change anything, preferring to hope that the referee would even out the penalty count which means they weren’t reading Lawrence correctly.
It took England 80 minutes to work out they were going to have to bring Jason Leonard on to please Watson. I just wish the Lions could have bitten the bullet as early as the 35th minute and substituted Vickery. Adam Jones, just by being a different player, gave the referee an opportunity to put fresh eyes on the scrum and, from that point on, he was fine. I think the Mears argument above is largely irrelevant. Yes, he made Vickery more vulverable – and visible as far as the ref was concerned – but it was never the issue that Lawrence decided it was.
The irony is that Vickery could play in front of next week’s referee and not have a problem but I can’t think the Lions will want to risk it. They’ll also want to keep some momentum going from that second half so you have to think that some of those second half boys will get a start.
Any news on the injuries for BOD & Byrne?
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Rugby fan, I’m not saying he isn’t a good scrummager, in fact I have certainly never said that he isn’t consistently poor either. What I am stating is that he has never been a world class scrummager. Men of 6′3 rarely are. Vickery has never dominated opponents the way that Hayman or Marconnet has.
Knives Out said | June 21st 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Change that..
‘I have certainly never said that he isn’t consistently poor either.’
I have certainly never said that he is consistently poor.
Btw, I’ve also played hooke, and Mears only makes Vickery vulnerable to du Plessis, and not Mtawarira, as Viscount suggested.
Colin N said | June 21st 2009 @ 9:04am | Report comment
“If you watched his devastating performance for Brive at Worcester, then’d you know what I’m talking about.”
He played well, but I wouldn’t call it devastating. Also, are you talking about his scrummaging work (which I assume you are) or his other work around the park? Who was at prop for Brive? And another point it was Worcester, not a renowned scrummaging side. It’s not at international level.
Vickery has never been a great scrummager. In the Autumn and early in the six nations (if not all), he constantly lost his bind.
However, although I believe Mears is a good scrummaging hooker, Sheridan, because of his height has struggled, when packing down with him. It’s the same at Sale, with Bruno, a stronger and I think taller hooker, Sheridan generally dominates, where as with a smaller, quicker hooker like Briggs, he struggles a bit. You saw in the six nations when Hartley came on how the English scrum improved. Then again, you only have to look at the Bath scrum to see what a good unit that is and how it at least provides a solid platform, if not pushes the opposition scrum backwards.
Mears had a poor game in the line-out, but that can also be disputed. The calling could be at fault by O’Connell, as could the lifters. Hayes’ work in this area for Ireland can’t be underestimated. He was also part of the unit that apparently had the best line-out stats in the Guinness Premiership.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 22nd 2009 @ 5:34am | Report comment
Graham Rowntree has spoken – and he’s backing me up…
“But it’s not just about him [Vickery] but also those guys immediately next to him [i.e. Mears] and behind him”.
Enough said.
Knives Out said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:48am | Report comment
Erm, that’s what I said. 8 man issue, hence not one man should be singled out which you seem to have done consistently and directly above.
Enough said.
Although, I think enough had been said when you confidently asserted that Sylvain Marconnet was a tight head, or maybe it was when you suggested that Phil Vickery was a world class scrummager, or maybe… I just lose track of your gems, Viscount.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 22nd 2009 @ 11:44am | Report comment
That’s what you said?! You went nuts as soon as I mentioned that Lee Mears was poor and made it harder for Vickery. You then wrote about 3,000 words trying to justufy yourself.
You should read the excellent article from Jon Harris over on the rugby365 website. He says:
“They had Lee Mears in at hooker with Vickery and Gethin Jenkins. Jenkins and Vickery are both 1,88 metres (6′2″) tall, while Mears is 1,73. (5′8″). This disparity caused an imbalance in the scrum. Now one may say that Vickery scrums with Mears for England, which is fair comment, but balancing that front row out, is the immensely effective Andrew Sheridan, whose size and strength adds a tremendous amount of power and balance to a front row and gives it stability. This was the job Os du Randt did for the Boks until his retirement. Mears was chosen for his loose play and mobility, and when it came to lending bulk and technique to Vickery, he was found wanting.
Props and hookers work in unison, lending strength to a particular area of need. Mears was under pressure from du Plessis and had his work cut out for him, he had nothing to spare to help Vickery, which is a normal expectation. Everyone is calling for the head of Vickery, which to this prop is unfair. The position of hooker should attract some attention. Matthew Rees played more than a small role in steadying the Lions scrum when he was brought on, and should be acknowledged for that”.
Everyone else can see that Lee Mears was “found wanting”, KO. Why can’t you?
pothale said | June 28th 2009 @ 12:48am | Report comment
Am gutted for the Lions. Great match to watch, Terrible ending for them. But the Boks won. Series over.
Kearney and Shaw were my men of the match for the Lions. Great try by Habana – Beautifully executed.
Is the end of Lions tours? I hope not. Worthwhile watching just for the action and competition.
Darryl SA said | June 28th 2009 @ 1:24am | Report comment
This was a very good Lions team and I would hate to see their tours end. They have nothing to be ashamed of. Both these tests were close affairs, and clearly as a Saffer I enjoyed both of them.
Feel for the Lions fans, but as I say, they earned respect on this tour, in my opinion.
Well done Springboks! You do need to make some personnel changes in the team that’s for sure, and I hope the selectors find some wisdom. Steyn MUST start the next test, and Brussouw HAS to start. Schalk will be banned, and will deserve every minute of the ban. He was not ready to play test rugby yet and the selectors should be ashamed of themselves for picking people who played well last year, but have not found form this year, nor have they played rugby in ages. Pienaar is a very good rugby player and could well be a great future flyhalf, but he hasn’t played rugby for months and should have started from the bench.
Go Bokke!
mattamkII said | June 28th 2009 @ 1:52am | Report comment
anyone going to mention the Refs final call?
Nelson said | June 28th 2009 @ 2:26am | Report comment
the final pen was pretty consistent with everything he had called during the match – i recally a soft penalty in kearney’s favor early on. there was an equally “soft” lineout call that went against the boks earlier and jones scored from it and there were a lot of soft high tackle calls which a lot of refs wouldnt have blown up. so overal li think the ref was cosistent
what about o’gara – missed tackle which led to a try and conceeding a penatly… he pretty much cost the lions there series
it was a shame it desended into uncontseted scrums as it was shaping up as an epic battle in that facet of the game.
what a difference shaw made and i thought kearney was a revelation at full back, he had a masterful game.
at the end of the day you have to hand it to the boks. they probably shouldnt have got away with a win but did. whats telling is that thier best players were probably all subs – brussow, fourie, steyn.
mattamkII said | June 28th 2009 @ 2:37am | Report comment
yep agree. Always hard when it comes down to a line ball call on the last play.
Every the lions players involved in that last saffer try should hang their head. One bloke just watched him slide for the line and didnt even really try to get under him.
Was thinking during the game that:
1) Karney may well be on track to being the best 15 in the world right now.
2) Is Jones the most inform 10 on the globe? I never rated him but hes shown plenty recently. Gits and Carter are clearly better but with Carter out and Gits hardly being test thus far, Jones is up there.
Colin N said | June 28th 2009 @ 2:48am | Report comment
I’m absolutely gutted, but I can’t complain with the result, South Africa deserved it. I think the last penalty was correct and that the referee had an excellent game. However, if the touch judge saw that Burger gouge clearly, which seemed to be the case, he should have been sent off.
I was also disappointed with Lions defence off first phase ball.
But, all in all, I feel these Lions have done Britain and Ireland very proud and deserve a huge amount of credit, especially after the debacle of the last tour.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 28th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
The Lions seemed to struggle with injuries and the uncontested scrums, but O’Gara is a shocker.
The Boks played well in the second half, but the breakdown was an awful mess. Paddy O’Brien has a lot to answer for. So many of the refs on the weekend shouldn’t be reffing tier 1 rugby.
pothale said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:21am | Report comment
And so Geech makes his final call of the series:
15 Rob Kearney,
14 Ugo Monye,
13 Tommy Bowe,
12 Riki Flutey,
11 Shane Williams,
10 Stephen Jones,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Jamie Heaslip,
7 Martyn Williams,
6 Joe Worsley,
5 Paul O’Connell,
4 Simon Shaw,
3 Phil Vickery,
2 Matthew Rees,
1 Andrew Sheridan.
Replacements: 16 Ross Ford, 17 John Hayes, 18 Alun-Wyn Jones, 19 David Wallace, 20 Tom Croft, 21 Harry Ellis, 22 James Hook.
No particular surprises in the selection, once you factor in all the injuries. It’s a pity that Keith Earls didn’t get a chance of a run-out in one of the Tests, but he’s young enough to get another opportunity if he develops further.
Bowe at 13 will be interesting given his penchant for moving in-field from out on the wing. Kidney will probably watch with interest to see if there’s a BOD replacement to be developed for the longer-term.
I think Hook should be in starting at 10, rather than Jones.
If John Hayes is used as a sub, I’ll eat my hat.
Colin N said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:37am | Report comment
Hmmm, I sort of wanted Earls to play OC, but I suppose Bowe has played a fair bit of rugby there.
Also, I would have probably played Monye there over Bowe as well. Monye has a bit more power and I think that would complement Flutey’s subtleness.
Slightly surprised to see Worsley there, but I know why Geech has done it.
I would have had Flitzgerald over Williams, but apart from that the team looks ok, considering the amount of injuries the Lions have.
pothale said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:52am | Report comment
Fitzgerald is being replaced – apparently because of weakness in his tackling in the last game. Am puzzled by this – I didn’t see anything where he missed out critical ones bar the standard one or two that players sometimes accumulate during a game.
Colin N said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:56am | Report comment
Strange isn’t it. Like Williams is a better at tackler? For me, Flitzgerald is one of the best defensive wingers in the squad, far better than Williams in this aspect anyway.
Knives Out said | July 3rd 2009 @ 1:43am | Report comment
And so the last game is upon us. I can’t help but feel the general selection of this tour has been utterly appalling. The midweek team has been severely unbalanced and now we have a scenario like this. As Viscount would say, it’s risable.
Rugby Fan said | July 3rd 2009 @ 2:20am | Report comment
There’s talk that some players are still mentally exhausted after last Saturday. Shane Williams mentioned that a few skipped the safari which had been planned early in the week because they were still wound up so tightly. There’s a possibility that Fitzgerald fits into that category which would explain his absence. ROG might also be out of sorts but he was probably going to be behind Hook anyway. The Times thinks Croft might also be a bit strung out and better as a replacement than a starter.
pothale said | July 3rd 2009 @ 2:30am | Report comment
I see that Skulk Burger is determined to be like his coach in his public utterances. The Judicial Officer, Alan Hudson has issued his report on last Saturday’s test..
Hudson found that: ” not to be an intentional act on the part of Burger. I accept Burger’s evidence that he did not intend to make contact with the eye area of Lions No 11.”
He also said that: “his actions were clearly reckless. That is he knew or should have known that there was a risk that his actions could result in an act of foul play – that is contact with the eye area of Lions No 11.”
Regarding the injury to Fitzgerald: ” the contact could not be described as simply trivial. It is clear on the report of the Lions doctor that there was initially redness and swelling about the left eyelid and there was some short lived tearing and blurred vision.”
“I am unable to conclude that there was eye gouging in the sense of a ripping or aggressive intrusion of the eye area, but I do conclude that there was contact in the left eye area which while not serious in the result, cannot be described as insignificant.”
“I find that in this case the appropriate entry level for the determination of sanction is the lower end.”
And finally: “Burger is clearly a fine rugby player with fifty test caps and many national and international accolades.
I have heard a great deal of Burger’s fine character off the field. I accept the evidence of Mr (Arthob) Petersen, manager of the Springboks and Mr (Dick) Muir, assistant Springbok coach in this regard.
Burger’s record is quite good for a player of his experience. Importantly he has never been disciplined for any offence related to the face of any player. Burger expressed remorse for these events at the hearing and conducted himself appropriately throughout the hearing.
The above all constitute mitigating factors which I have concluded will apply to reduce the period of suspension. Burger’s suspension will be reduced from 12 weeks to 8 weeks. He is suspended from playing rugby until midnight 22 August 2009.”
On foot of this, Burger decided to apologise for the incident. To his team-mates and Bok fans that is. For being absent from the match for ten minutes. And he’s happy that he’s been found innocent, too:
“I am therefore grateful that the judicial officer confirmed my stance with his conclusion that there was no deliberate eye-gouging as charged by the citing official. I will always play the game as hard as possible within the rules.
I apologise to my supporters and fellow team-mates for the fact that I have been absent for the first 10 minutes of the second Test. I look forward to returning with zest in due course.”
So, even though he might have not-deliberately eye-gouged a Lions player, he can only manage to apologize to his team-mates.
What a class act.
Knives Out said | July 3rd 2009 @ 2:36am | Report comment
I’m perplexed as to how the act could be construed as unintentional. Oh well, what should we expect?
pothale said | July 3rd 2009 @ 3:03am | Report comment
Well, yer honour, I was on the ground, tackling blokes wearing red shirts, could see who they were.
So there was this one guy who was near the ball, so I grabbed hold of the nearest thing of his – which just happened to be his head as it turned out but I didn’t know that at the time, and I had to use these things at the end of my arms called hands to do that. And my hands have fingers which I then carefully placed around the head – though it might have been his bottom for all I knew at the time, and I puled gently. Before I knew it, there was daylight above us, and I could see what I was doing. And so could the linesman. So I readjusted my fingers on the players face to see if I could feel who it was – Bakkies had told me about Mike Phillips’ blue eyes, and I kinda had been hoping to get a glimpse of them up close, but it turned out to be this Irish bloke Fitzgerald. He was overcome with emotion about the whole test and was crying a bit – his eyes seemed to be quite red.
Lovely guy as it turns out yer honour, his dad used to play as well apparently as I found out when I was having a beer with Fitzy later on and we were having a laugh about it all – and how unintentional it all was.
Knives Out said | July 3rd 2009 @ 3:17am | Report comment
Very droll. Very good. I’ll have to copy and paste that.
pothale said | July 5th 2009 @ 1:02am | Report comment
And finally, a well deserved, thumping victory for the Lions. Great match to watch and the Lions outlayed the Boks comprehensively. a bit of argy-bargy from both sides but thankfully it didn’t spoil what was a thrilling match to watch. Credit to both sides for not treating it is a dead rubber.
Congrats to the Boks for winning the series – they beat Lions fair and square 2-1.
Congrats to the Lions for a overall tour win record of 8.5 – 2.5. O’Connell stood up today as captain and led his team brilliantly from the front. Shane Williams managed to retrieve his reputation with two well-taken tries and Monye left Boks trailing in his wake for his intercept try.
Kearney played out of his socks again along with Jamie Heaslip who was my man of the match – he was everywhere.
Lions outscored Boks 7 tries to 5 and had overall points margin of 11 points across the three tests. They lost the series but all talk of a whitewash or a resounding thumping for the Lions is well put to bed.
Congrats again to Boks and the season is finally over for NH. It’s been one of the best from where I’m sitting.
pothale said | July 5th 2009 @ 2:17am | Report comment
One final thing. My Lions XV of the tour based on their performances across the tour:
15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Brian O’Driscoll
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Ugo Monye
10. Stephen Jones
9. Mike Phillips
8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Martyn Williams
6. Tom Croft
5. Paul O’Connell
4. Simon Shaw
3. Gethin Jenkins
2. Mathew Rees
1. Andrew Sheridan
Honourable mentions to Phil Vickery, James Hook, Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, and Joe Worsely (and maybe grudgingly Shane Williams).
Greg Smith said | July 5th 2009 @ 2:51am | Report comment
Poor thing potale… Well done !
Bok B team deniability in the dead rubber aside… your mob were more eager to earn their keep
Of coarse if this was a crunch match …
Rugby Fan said | July 5th 2009 @ 4:53am | Report comment
Rather than dredge up another Schalk Burger thread, I thought I’d post this link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00lft0j/5_live_Sport_5_live_Lions_02_07_2009/
This is a BBC Radio programme hosted by Matt Dawson. It features an interview with IRB head referee Paddy O’Brien who gives a frank account of how he saw the refereeing of the yellow card incident.
If you don’t have time to listen to it, in summary, O’Brien makes the following points:
1) Assistant referee Lawrence should be congratulated for spotting what Burger was doing because most gouging incidents are only picked up after a game has finished with a review of the video incident.
2) He maintains that if Lawrence had clearly seen gouging, he would have had no hesitation in recommending a red. He says that none of his referees think that gouging warrants any less than a red.
3) He believes that Lawrence saw fingers around the eye area but did not witness the actual gouging. Although he may have suspected it had taken place, he did not recommend a direct red because he had not seen it.
4) One of the trial ELVs which was rejected was the option to use the TMO to review instances of serious foul play. O’Brien points out that if the TMO option had been available, Burger’s gouging could have been identified and a red card issued. O’Brien has no doubt that the video evidence shows gouging.
5) He accepts that there were language difficulties which didn’t help the situation. Berdos speaks and understands good English but the cauldron of a Test might have been a factor. He points out that no referees from Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England or South Africa were used because of the Tour agreement which limited the top officials who could participate.
6) He believes the eight week penalty imposed by the tribunal is too lenient.
The interview begs as many questions as its answers but I think O’Brien deserves some credit for making these views public.
Incidentally, I thought it was very dumb of Shaw to go down with his knees in today’s game. If he’d tried to win the ball instead then the Lions had a good position. Shaw used a knee against NZ in 2004 and was sent off for it and the same could so easily have happened this time.
As far as the Test XV goes, It looks like we would have done well to go with the Welsh front row and then used Sheridan as an impact sub. Murray looked good in his set pieces so it’s possible he might even have done better than Jones. South Africa say they remembered how he got the better of the Beast when they last met. Those non-Test games gave us few clues about our best front 5.
Actually, they didn’t help us much in the back row either. I reckon Ferris would have made the Test XV ahead of Croft and an All-Irish back row of Ferris, Heaslip & Wallace might have had the advantage of cohesion that served the Welsh front row unit well. Since Ferris didn’t make the Tests, I reckon Croft is a fair choice. On the strength of their performances across all games, I just can’t choose between Williams or Wallace. If we had played the game how we planned, however, Williams would have suited us better.
Shaw and POC seem right for the second row. I’ve always been liked Shaw so I would have played him in the first Test. Disappointing that he blotted his copybook with that knee.
Phillips had a good tour which was lucky for the Lions because neither Blair nor Ellis challenged him. Jones didn’t let the team down either but I wouldn’t have minded seeing what James Hook could have done at no 10 with BOD & Roberts.
Kearney at full back, Bowe on the wing (although, like Heaslip, he was too quiet in the first two Tests) are fair enough. I might agree with Monye because he performed well over the tour and probably copped more than his fair share of criticism over those two missed tries. However Fitzgerald also looked OK and an all-Irish back three could have had some advantages. In the end, though, it could have been a better idea to try Byrne at 15 and use Kearney in tandem with Bowe on the wing but we’ll never know if that would have had the right balance.