Loftus, you and I both know that all sides are dirty to an extent, its a tough game and in giving it all people get carried away. The difference is that with our long history of skop en donner any incident on the Bok/SA side will be magnified greatly conversely an incident by our opponents seems to be minimalised. In essence this is also a bit of our own fault, not just for playing that way but also in the attempt to clean up our play we pillorise our players adding to the image. BTW – Great to see the Bulls hitting their straps after last season, I am still waiting on the Stormers, its only been 13 years and counting….

As for the Boks being mediocre – overrated in some ways yes, mediocre no. Mediocre doenst beat the ABs and Wallabies and wouldnt sit 2nd on the rankings, world cup point system or not. Also when I say overrated, I mean we have a lot of excellent players who are not playing to their full potential and are holding up others in better form. Its good to see a core of these finding form with the Bulls and I think if PDV has any sense he will form the squad around these key combinations.

In relation to my previous thread on the state of affairs, I think we still have issues at tight head unless Rayno Gerber is in the coaches plans. The Bakkies/Matfield axis with Rossouw and Bekker looks very good. The back row will be interesting but to my mind the definites are Spies and Smith, with Burger propbably starting on reputation and Brussouw from the bench. du Preez and Steyn are in excellent form and would be my test starters with Vermaak and Pienaar backing up. Centres are a big area of concern due to the first and second choices in each position de Villiers/Olivier and Fourie/Jacobs carrying or coming back form injury. Wings, JP and Habana with the latter really looking for action of late. Fullback is a worry unless Kirchner is in the slot, would like to have seen Daniller or Ludik in the squad.

We don’t need KO to tell us that. In fact he didn’t, you did.

Roll on the Royal.

Rusty, you make a very good point about the breakdown. Last year, specifically on the home stretch of the Tri Nations, you had the most of the forwards standing in the backline instead of consolidating possession (at times the backs had to do that). As a result, they made many breaks, but could never finish because the opposition could turn them over with relative ease. In the last game, though, the forwards piled into the rucks and the Wallabies could do absolutely nothing. If they follow that formula they will be successful. If, however, they play like they did in those first two games against the Lions I can see the latter getting an upset.

Front row – The Bok front row has been on general decline for the last decade, props seem more about playing as loose forwards than turning thier opposite number inside out at scrum time. I think in the current combination they will struggle against whomever the Lions pack down. To fix this there are a couple of options, 1) use the entire Sharks front row as is – 1 of the top performers in the S14. Interestingly enough the Beast performs much better for the Sharks than the Boks. Might be something to do with the national technique or locks 2) Move Smit to tighthead, and have Bismark and Beast. From memory Smit held his own against Jenkins in the Wales match and this brings the more dynamic Bismark in to play. Backup hooker should then be Liebenberg who is probably the best scrumming hooker in SA and the reason why the maligned Stormers back gave it to the Highlanders. 3) Get the outisders in, recall BJ Botha and play Heinke v Merwe with Smit in the middle. Outside of Smit this would be our strongest frontrow

Second row – Not much to add here. Matfield and Botha are the premier locking pair in World rugby. Concerns were the start of the season form of Victor but he is playing himself back and now the lack of backup with Bekker possibly out for the series. Adequate cover for Botha with Rossouw and Muller

Back row – plenty of riches here with the biggest problem being the choice of combination. My guess is the coach will stick with the tried and trusted Burger, Spies, Smith axis. Unfortunately Burger hasnt been his usual imposing self and with Brussouw playing back to back blinders I hope he makes it onto the bench. Juan seems to be finding his ’07 form so the blindside is covered with Duanne Vermuelen from the Stormers a great cover option. 8 – easy choice of Spies and Kankowski.

Half back – no issues. Du Preez and probably Januarie as the incumbent backup, would prefer the on form Kockott who can also kick for posts. Vermaak needs honourable mention.

Fly Half – the bane of South Africa, we either produce kicking or running 10s or poor combinations of both. I think Pienaar will be the starter and I think if given the opportunity he could be very good. Unfortunately, with current injuries and timescales, opportunity he might not have. Backups are thin, but I would plumb for Peter Grant and Morne Steyn. God forbid we see the mercurial Earl Rose running on.

Centres – Injury to Jean de Villiers is the main issue. Otherwise plenty of options on this front but given the size of the outside centres the Lions are bringing and the slippery BOD. I would pick Fourie as a defensive starter and bring Jacobs on later to do what he does best which is run into holes. Inside center, JdV or Wynand Olivier who is having a blinding season.

Wings – Habana & Pieterson will be the wingers. Even with Habana persisting on his defensive intercept dash that does his team mates no favours and drop off of pace he is still a danger man that will tie up the oppositions plans. JP has also been in good form and provides an extra boot option. Backups Nokwe & Mentz. I would have liked to have seen Chavanga this season but injuries have ended his chances

Full Back – bit interesting here as the incumber Jantes hasnt had a great season so far- solid just unspectacular. Terblanche has been a bit the same but helps create more but I doubt he will feature. So Jantes it is, I would like to see Ludick or Daniller get a second half run on

Pretty good lineup either way and there only a few matchups where I see the Lions as better. Think it will be very tight either way and a 3-0 to the Boks is being generous. The Boks should dominate the lineout and if they can get parity in the scrums it will all come down the breakdown and the refs leniency. The Lions have picked some very good dirt sniffers with Williams, Ferris & co and the Boks without Brussouw can only counter this through clearing out the rucks. Fortunately they do have the best in the business for this but as mentioned in this thread it depends if they pitch on the day. In every test last year where the Boks ran up big scores they were rampant in this area, getting qucik ball at will, As soon as this changes they seem to run out of ideas and stagnate. I’m still picking a Bok series win but at 2-1

That may be the case, and it might not. If you examine the wing position there aren’t a great deal of alternatives and Habana is that good an athlete that most coaches would probably persevere with him. The same applies to full back. The only alternative 15 that I can think of is Ludik and it’s unlikely that PdV would change a squad that he has been massively loyal to despite results. Therein lies the problem: loyalty. PdV hasn’t just persevered with his black players, he has also persevered with his white players. Brussouw deserves to be selected ahead of Burger, but I bet he won’t.

Why do you suppose that is?

I do agree with the coaching though. Even look at the Cheetahs, forget about the lions and the stormers. With proper conditioning and coaching these guys will perform MUCH better. The natural number of good rugby players coming from this region is amazing. The Force started a 17 year old (O’Conner I think) and he was not just solid, we was fantastic.

I think it starts from school boy rugby. SA players depend on their natural talent to bull dose the other players. It is shocking how many SA professional players can’t even pass a ball properly to both sides! This is something you learn in primary school! This was never taught to me by the way, and I come from a serious rugby area.

Both your countries are light years ahead with overall professionalism.
SA is still stuck in the 80′s with a shitty rugby board that is all about self actualization and egos.

Most South Africans predicts that once the core players of the RWC 07 retires, it will be tickets for us and proper rugby.

If our wonderful coach, Mr Mustache, spent a bit less time worrying about politics, the color of his own skin, and campaigning for the ANC (ruling party), it might have been different.

Anyone in NZ or Aus want to send me jersey that I can support?

Aside from the coaching team, SA team still had some renowned players. I don’t think the Lions won because they were necessarily a great team I think they won because that SA side was one-dimensional and arrogant and the Lions identified this and were efficient. I am reserving my judgement until I see the tactics that the Lions use but I do believe the players they have this time are better than the 1997 group. The scrum should be strong, the lineout solid and the backs inventive. Whether or not that all comes together is another matter.

If it were the All Blacks touring South Africa, I wouldn’t be confident of a Test series victory.

I suppose there are parallels to ’97 — aside from the whole Andre Markgraaff/Carel du Plessis debacle, but will the Lions really be as good as they were in ’97?

If PdV goes then who comes in?

What are the chances of PdV getting the boot if they lose to the Lions?