By Jesse Fink
April 29th 2009 @ 2:33am
Related coverage
All hail football’s “teacher coach”
Germany coach Jurgen Klinsmann, right, celebrates with forward Miroslav Klose at the end of the World Cup, Group A soccer match between Germany and Poland, at the Dortmund stadium, Germany, Wednesday, June 14, 2006. Germany won 1-0. The other teams in Group A are Ecuador and Costa Rica. AP Photo/Murad Sezer
How the mighty fall. German superclub Bayern Munich has fired Jürgen Klinsmann after just eight months in the job, an amazing state of affairs when you consider that Klinsmann, Germany’s folk hero at the 2006 World Cup, was so in demand he could have signed anywhere and for just about any amount of money.
But after starting his club coaching career brightly, amid the attendant mists of hype and optimism, his reputation began to wane and, after crashing out of the UEFA Champions League and the DFB Cup, a 1-0 home league loss to Schalke 04 at the Allianz Arena in Munich sealed his fate. Bayern, a club used to sitting atop the Bundesliga perch, is also currently sitting in equal third with Hamburg and Stuttgart behind Wolfsburg and Hertha Berlin, but only three points behind Wolfsburg with five games to play.
A not insurmounstable lead, but for the Bavarian giants, to even be in third at this stage of the season is unacceptable by any measure, let alone with a former Germany national-team coach at the helm and stars of the wattage of Luca Toni and Franck Ribery on their roster.
Brutal, perhaps, but this is not a club that mucks around – even with national heroes.
What Klinsmann’s story underlines is the danger to many clubs of falling for a “player coach” over a “teacher coach”.
A “teacher coach”, a term Iran manager Afshin Ghotbi introduced me to, is as exactly as it sounds: someone, usually a man who never achieved much as a player himself, who has done all the groundwork to assume a position of such responsibility, who has fastidiously studied every facet of the game, who is familiar with training and tactical innovations, who has gathered experience and wisdom through legwork and failure, who can impart valuable knowledge to his players and know they will listen and inspire them to become better footballers and human beings in the process.
Sort of a like a footballing Glenn Holland or a John Keating.
Ghotbi is one. Pim Verbeek is one. As is Guus Hiddink, Jose Mourinho, Klinsmann’s Bayern predecessor Ottmar Hitzfeld and his Nationalmannschaft replacement, Joachim Löw.
The Socceroos have had a few over the years, such as the aforementioned Hiddink, Terry Venables, Frank Arok and Joe Vlasits.
The “player coach” is the complete opposite: a manager that has arrived in his vaulted position by virtue of the career he had on the park and the notoriety he achieved as a result. Usually they are young, have scant qualifications and are ill-equipped to assume the mantle of life guide to footballers not that much younger or inexperienced than themselves.
Think of Alan Shearer, Gianfranco Zola, Ruud Gullit, Diego Maradona and, closer to these shores, Graham Arnold and Frank Farina.
They might luck out with one or two good seasons but over a longer period of time – if they are allowed to coach that long – and under pressure their deficiencies quickly become apparent.
In football, as in life, there is no substitute for experience and just playing football and scoring goals does not a coach make. That’s not to say “player coaches” can contribute some valuable things to a dressing-room, as we have seen with Maradona and the thrall in which he is held inside the sheds of the Albicelestes, but up against good teams and shrewd tacticians of the calibre of a Mourinho or Hiddink, the likelihood is sooner or later they will be found wanting.
And that, sadly, is precisely the fate that has befallen Klinsmann.
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and I’m on the Roosters bandwagon a 12 point win to the chooks.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 7:50am | Report comment
Why are you comparing your so called “teacher” coaches like Hiddink and Mourinho with “player coaches” like Farina and Arnold. Its disingenuous.
Their is no substitute for football intelligence. It does not matter if you had an esteemed player career or not.
If you don’t have football intelligence then your chances of succeeding in the managerial caper are zero.
Its just that when a “player” manager fails everyone takes notice because of their fame.
What then do you call the hundreds of men of limited footballing ability who fail at the caper and get sacked every year?
Do we call them “failed teacher coaches” ?
Here is a list of so called “player” coaches with footballing intelligence and their managerial records.
Miguel Munoz – played 223 games with Real Madrid – Won 2 Euro Cups 1956, 57 as player.
He then became the longest serving and most successful manager in the clubs history.
In 14 seasons under his reign, Real won 9 La Liga titles, 2 European Cups 1960, 1966.
He also took Spain to Euro 84 Final in 1984.
Johan Cruyff – Football visionary – As a player won 3 European Cups with Ajax.
He became Barcelona’s longest serving and most sucessful manager in its history.
4 consecutive La Liga titles, 1 European Cup.
Giovanni Trapattoni – played 274 games with Milan won 2 European Cups.
6 Serie A titles and 1 European Cup with Juventus.
Not enough room here to list all the other titles he has won in his 30+ year managerial career.
Other players to have won European Cups as a player and as a manager include Carlo Ancelotti and Frank Rijkaard.
Marcello Lippi – played 274 games for Sampdoria – as manager 5 Italian titles, 1 UCL, 1 World Cup.
Finally, why is Zola mentioned in the same breath as Arnold and Farina.
The man played with football intelligence and is showing every sign that he will make the transition to successful manager.
Tom said | April 29th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Apologies to introduce an AFL reference to a football article, but I think Michael Voss is another example destined for the same fate.
Good article Jesse. Though you probably should restrain yourself from mentioning Ghotbi in every article from this point on. Although I admit the comparison with Daei is an interesting one.
Simmo said | April 29th 2009 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Lucas Toni?
whiskeymac said | April 29th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
interesting and probably true in a lot of cases but certaily not all and there are some that have mixed successes…Hoddle was quite good (at Swindon anyway), then there’s Dalglish, Souness, Graham the list goes on (sorry, not so knoweldgable on other countries players but Capello and Mancini or Dunga even).
Venables also had a fantastic playing career didnt he?
Klinsmann i thought cld put much of his National success down to Low (or was that just a nasty rumour?) and the fact the germans were playing at home (which always helps). and Marco Van Basten was on the end of a smiliar fate at Ajax – and a very damning article in the guardian online earlier on this week….
will be interesting to see what happens to Shearer at Newcastle and Diego at Argentina….
i think though that there is a lot ot be said of being a good player not necessarily meaning you are a good coach or manager and you ould hope that those players who do make the transition also make the effort to study thegame from the dug out perspective. Hopefully the players retiring, or recently retired, from the socceroos who go into maangement learn the ropes like the more accomplished managers, be they from a “teacher” or “player” background.
Midfielder said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Must go nowbut in RL Bobby Fulton is arguably the best player ever and a very successful coach…will post latter..
Pippinu said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
A bloke who built his whole career on diving was never going to amount to much as a manager.
Luke W said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
The first thing that came to mind when I read this article was the system Queensland use in the State of Origin series. They have Mal Meninga as their head coach (a “player” coach if I ever did see one), but more importantly, Neil Henry as assistant coach. Meninga obviously provides the inspiration, passion and experience, while Henry brings the tactics and formations. Perhaps a mix of the two types of coaches is best, judging by the dominance of Queensland in recent years (which is definitely not due to the likes of Slater, Folau, Inglis, Lockyer, Thurston, Smith, Price and Civoniceva…)
whiskeymac said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
beckenbauer also….
This article sort of compliments Jeremy Wilson’s (of The Times) piece on Manager of the month (in which he choses Hodgson) wherein, at the end of the piece, he has a quote from Andy Roxburgh – which i will cut an paste below. I only add this because it highlights what other managers/ technicians consider to be essential ingredients to becoming a good coach.. and a past history isnt one of them:
Arsene Wenger describes him [ Roy Hodgson] as one of the “super competent” coaches in England football, while his thirst to learn and improve, even at the age of 61, is underlined by his ongoing involvement in coaching seminars with Uefa.
“‘He has a great eye for the game and he is a wonderful communicator,” said Uefa technical director Andy Roxburgh. “But the really good thing is that he can do it in any one of half-a-dozen languages. His real gift, however, is his practical ability on the pitch. He is an expert at organising teams, the tactical side of the game.
“He has a true talent for it. He is very pragmatic and very good at marshalling teams not to lose matches, but he can also organise the positive aspect with his players.
“Just a couple of weeks ago Sir Alex Ferguson talked to me about how the game has gone global. There are some managers who have that global view; Arsene Wenger, Gerard Houllier and Sir Alex himself.
“That global view is very important and Roy has it. It is about knowing the game in the country where you are working but being aware of the trends developing elsewhere, knowing the good players. Seeing that bigger picture is a great advantage.”
whiskeymac said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
sorry that last post should have said Jeremy Wilson from The Daily Telegraph (UK) not the Times…
Brian said | April 29th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
At least Klinsman did better than Mattahuis or Brehme. On the wider topic whats important for a coach is to have played at some level but essentially coaching is about the brain and playing about physical abilities. Certainly the biggest coaching flop I can remember in terms of consistent failure was any ex-player – Kevin Keegan.
whiskeymac said | April 29th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Keegan almost got NUFC to the EPL in 96 (i think) – a great team to watch, and a great manger to watch implode…
Jesse Fink said | April 29th 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Lucas Toni? No idea. Obviously one of those Microsoft Word autofills.It should be back to Luca Toni now. Hahahaha.
Vicentin said | April 29th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
I’ve always thought that footballing intelligence and the ability to impart it is what is important, not the strength of one’s playing career. Pippu will remember this but on another blog some years ago we talked not only about whether you need to be an elite player but also what part of the pitch you played on. Of course there are always a few noticable exceptions (Cruyff, Ferguson I think) but the majority of decent coaches I can think of also played deeper – fullbacks, keepers, midfielders – my explanation to this is that as you play deeper you have to be a better reader of the game and almost naturally have more of a “team” mentality. Strikers – and rightly so – are selfish players who obsess about their own position but often don’t really care about what happens on the other side of the halfway line or even their half of the pitch – as long as it gets to them!
In relation to Luke W’s Qld RL example, lots of people thought that Klinsy and Low had the same kind of roles as Meninga and Henry. Bayern bought the wrong one I fear or should have tried to get them as a double act. Remember too that Ferguson generally has had a tactical specialist working with him – Quiroz for instance (who will forever be a good Number 2 but seems to be failing in his current role heading Portugal). On that point it is probably important to note that charisma is important too and there are probably plenty of people who on paper should be good manager but just don’t have the charisma or strength of personality to really carry it through.
Slippery Jim said | April 29th 2009 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
There is only three years difference in age between Mourinho and Zola.
While I had my doubts about Zola’s as a top level coach due to his lack of experience, he has done wonders for West Ham, who are in contention for a spot in Europe on current form. Not sure how much of that is down to Steve Clarke, though.
By the way, I must say I am warming to this guy Ghotbi. The more he gets mentioned the more I start to see him as one of the top managers in world football.
Jesse, see if you can get another gig on TWG’s TV slot, you could introduce the occasional subliminal shot of Ghotbi Fight-Club style to promote his career, maybe interspersed with shots from Nick Carle’s wonder days with the mighty Jets.
Pippinu said | April 29th 2009 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Vicentin
yes recall the discussion (and many variations around it since) – I also recall that you first raised it in the infancy of Arnold’s NT coaching career (i.e. before he was utterly discredited by all and sundry).
While there are plenty of exceptions, and a few have been mentioned on this thread, I think it’s hard to argue with the basic premise that you need to have a deeper understanding of the game to play deep (pun was not intended, but now that it’s happened, well, it’s almost like an epiphany…)
Vicentin said | April 29th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Yes, well I guess that accounts for Arnie’s tactical favourite (regularly shouted from the sidelines) of “get it in box” !
Pippinu – with your IQ, depth of football knowledge and language skills, is it any wonder that you can drop puns while not even realising it?! Let us all thank the lord for putting you on the planet – and in the lucky country! If only you could move to Sydney!!!!
Joe said | April 29th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Interesting take on “player coaching”. A similarexample I could think of is in the NBA: Coach Magic Johnson compared to Coach Phil Jackson. Both became players and both ended up coaching the LA Lakers. Magic will forever be known as an all-time great player (and forgotten as a coach) and Phil will always be known as an all-time great coach.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Yes, defenders and midfielders are more likely to become managers.
But you would rather watch a team managed by an ex-striker/attacking player. Much more entertaining and positive.
E.G Cruyff, Ferguson, Tele Santana (jogo bonito).
As a Hammers fan, Zola is getting the boys to play some decent stuff.
Pippinu said | April 29th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Art
that’s an interesting question for everyone.
Is an ex-attacking player likely to play an attacking style, and conversely, is an ex-defender likely to be more defensive?
Does been ultra-organised necessarily mean being ultra-defensive? (a team with strategic nous will destroy a team without it – such that the question is almost academic).
I can still recall Arnie putting on 4 or 5 attacking players late in that game against Iraq in the Asian Cup when they smashed us – it wasn’t a pretty sight. And yet, when Guus did something similar against Japan, it pretty much saved our bacon – but I guess that’s your difference right there in having a robust game plan and not.
Does anyone have any first hand knowledge as to how Dino Zoff’s teams played? (I presume they didn’t resemble 11 keepers!!)
Vicentin said | April 29th 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Zoff’s teams were very attacking infact – both his Lazio side (ok, perhaps not as attacking as Zeman’s but still attractive) and the Italian side that lost the final against France were very attractive atttacking teams. It is going back a while now but were nothing like the dour Italy under Trappatoni or Cesare Maldini that’s for sure. I was really disappointed that he quit immediately after the final – supposedly because Berlusconi criticised him and thought he should. That’s a worry.
Vicentin said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
…sorry, should have read “lost the final of the Euros against France”.
Brian said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Dino Zoff’s Italy in Euro 2000 played 540 mins before conceding a goal (in the final in injury time) Needless to say they played like every Italian national team does.
Bringing up Mourinho & Zola is interesting, it makes me wonder whether ordinary players actually have an advantage in that they may start coaching at 25-30 y.o. whilst a gifted player will rightly play till 35 and then need some time away from the daily rigours before beginning to coach at say 40.
Slippery Jim said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Great point Brian, that seems to be what happened with Mourinho, as a failed player.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Actually, Zoff’s teams were quite good to watch, not as defensive and cynical as other Italian coaches.
He lost the Euro 2000 final.
What I do know is that Total football was developed by an attacking player, Rinus Michels.
Jogo Bonito was developed by an attacking player.
These were elite players who had an eye for goal and developed attacking methodologies.
As a player you would have loved playing in their teams.
Catenaccio was developed by a defender who never amounted to much as a player, Helenio Herrera.
I suppose we can put him in the boring “teacher” coach category that teaches how to win at all cost but leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Brian – I have to correct you there.
As you can see, Italy, did not go 540 minutes without conceding in Euro 2000 and if it was not for Wiltord’s last minute strike in normal time, they would have walked off with the trophy.
Euro 2000 results
Turkey 1 – 2 Italy Gelredome, Arnhem
Italy 2 – 0 Belgium King Baudouin Stadium, Brussels
Italy 2 – 1 Sweden Philips Stadion, Eindhoven
Quarter Final
Italy 2 – 0 Romania King Baudouin Stadium, Brussels
Semi Final
Italy 0 – 0 (a.e.t.) Penalties 3 –1
Netherlands Amsterdam ArenA, Amsterdam
Final
France 2 – 1 (asdet) Italy Feijenoord Stadion, Rotterdam
Delvecchio 55′
Wiltord 90′
Trézéguet 103′
Greg Russell said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Re the reason for Klinsi’s failure, my initial take was different to Jesse’s: I was struck by the difference between being a club coach and a national coach. This season we have seen the failure of Klinsi and of Big Phil (Scolari), who both took on high profile club positions on the back of doing well in high profile national positions. The fact is that very different skills are required for these two types of coaching positions, and I believe Klinsmann and Scolari have struggled to make the change.
An example of a failure in the other direction (i.e., a good club coach but a failed national coach) would be Sven(-Goran Eriksson).
An example of someone who has shown high proficiency in both types of position over a short space of time is Guus Hiddink. But who doesn’t already know that he’s a coaching genius?
Having said the above, I’m also convinced of Jesse’s distinction between “player coach” and “teacher coach”.
This raises the question of who has been a great player and a great coach.
A rude bugger called Slippery Jim wrote a rude response to one of my postings last week (I gather I have a lot of company, including Jesse!). But one useful thing SJ did was to refer me to the IFFHS website. There I found an award for “The Universal Genius of World Football (Top Player & Coach & Official)”. I clicked on the link just to confirm that the winner was the person it had to be:
Franz Beckenbauer.
There is your man who has had golden success in everything he has touched in football, whether playing or coaching or administration.
After the Kaiser coached Bayern Munich to the 1993-4 BL title, the boys were celebrating on TV, and they lined up to play a stupid little game where they had to kick a ball off a large glass a beer, along the ground, and through a hole in the wall. They all failed, except for the Kaiser. Mehmet Scholl just shook his head and said to the reporter “Dem Mensch gelingt alles”. This really said it all.
Technically Beckenbauer is a “player coach” who is just so good that he succeeded even though he isn’t a “teacher coach”. Someone who might genuinely be considered to be both is Johan Cruyff. So it’s possible, but not common.
Slippery Jim said | April 29th 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
You are a sensitive flower aren’t you, Greg! Calling me rude, does of course, qualify you as a rude bugger yourself. Glad you learnt something from my comment. Cheers
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Greg – please refer to my first post on this thread for the answer to some of your questions in regards to some very successful “player coaches”
Brian said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Art – my apologies I don’t know why I had that impression. I also forgot that they played 120 against the Dutch, mostly with 10 men in a performance I still have admiration for to this day
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Brian – Actually, the 2000 tournament was the only time I have ever felt pity for an Italian team.
Midfielder said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Art Sapphire
SHAME on you EVER Feeling sorry for an Italian team …. go hang your head and say three Our Father’s
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Midfielder – if I knew back then what I knew today with our good italian friends it might be a different story
Vicentin said | April 29th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Chiildren, children move on from your (occasionally correct) cliched views on Italian football – they’ve always had the players it has largely been the mentality of the coaches that have steered them down a negative yet often winning path.
But seriously it is a largely an incorrect cliche these days – the league produces as many goals as supposedly more attacking leagues (French club football for instance has for years has had one of the worst goals ratios) and in the great scheme of the things the national side is hardly more defensive and results oriented than most. Sadly Donadoni (an EXCELLENT midfielder in his day) absolutely bottled it in the last Euros and as result he put out stupid formations with an over-reliance on long balls to Luca(s) Toni. For a change I was glad they went out and that Spain with its wonderful football went on to win it.
I supported Spain? This is not something I would ever have countenanced some years ago but I’m glad their football was rewarded.
Also, while I’m a huge fan of Cruyff we can all have our moments … this is the same guy that before the ‘94 European Cup final – where he was managing Barcelona, predicted all sorts of horrible, anti-football from a Milan side coached by Capello. Result? 4-0 to Milan and some of the most wonderful attacking football you’re likely to see. mmm maybe you don’t always get what you see on the box.
p.s. nice Park the bus tactics by Chelsea this morning. Hope they put money in the meter.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
Capello had a super team in 94 and the he knew the best way to beat a team like Barca was to attack them.
Vincentin – you hit the nail on the head in regards to mentality of the Italian national coaches stifling attacking abilities of talented players.
They were terrible in Euro 2004 as well as 2008. Donadoni was a terrible appointment.
Below is an example of this mentality ay work.
Italy – Sweden game in 2004. The Italians are all over the Swedes playing sumptuous attacking football. They go 1 -0 up in the first half(it could have been 3-0 or more).They come out second half and decide to close shop. The Swedes see this and start dominating the game. The Italian keet pulling out their creative players and replacing them with defensive players.
The Swedes see this and keep adding attacking players. Ibrahimovic scored late in the game to equalise for the Swedes.
I have never laughed so hard at the end of a football game.
The Danes and the Swedes drew in the final game of the group stage and sent the Italians home in the Group stage.
Arri verdecci Italia.
Jesse Fink said | April 29th 2009 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
So, Greg, you’ve been tarred with the Contrarian brush too? My commiserations to you. Our pernicious friend has been curiously silent ever since Ghotbi was made national-team coach of Iran. A few days before he declared Ghotbi was the “biggest non-story” going around.
Luke W makes an interesting point about the proliferation of “player coaches” in rugby league, but that is really a whole other issue. But it’s a very valid one, probably worthy of discourse on this site’s rugby league pages.
I also think it’s way too early to make a call on Zola’s career. There will always be exceptions, Art Sapphire, and I never said this was a hard and fast rule of coaching. However, it’s a compelling one and more often than not you’ll find “player coaches” don’t make the grade.
Art Sapphire said | April 29th 2009 @ 9:30pm | Report comment
Jesse, if its to early to make a call on Zola then why did you include him in your list.
Zola comes across as a thoughtful, intelligent person. He spent 2 years earning his stripes as coach for the Italian youth team. He has made quite an impact at West Ham where his philosophy on football has created a side, without the big names, playing with flair and style. He has just agreed to a 3 year extension on his contract.
However, I can see why you included Alan Shearer, appointed as saviour for a desperate club. He does have the makings of a career manager.
Jesse, as I said before you don’t hear of the hundreds of “teacher” coaches who don’t make the grade. You only hear of the cream that rises to the top.
As I said before, only coaches with footballing intelligence make the grade, regardless of their background.
I’ll take the “player coaches – creator of total football Rinus Michels, Cruyff, Munoz and bit of jogo bonito with Tele Santanna.
You can have your favourite “teacher” coaches” Mourinho, Hiddink and Ghotbi.
I will even give you Herrera so you play catenaccio.
I wish your mate Ghotbi well. His task is going to be a difficult one. Best case scenario is for Team Melli to finish third, beat the third placed team in our group, then beat the Kiwis for the 5th Asian spot.
Even though he has an impressive resume, he has only been a senior manager for one season with Persepolis.
Lets see how he gets along with the pressure really on.
Slippery Jim said | April 30th 2009 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Dear Jesse – or if you are going to insist on the amusing name calling – “Troll by Proxy”, I have not been “strangely silent” ever since, see my comment on your last blog from Slippery Jim said | April 22nd 2009 @ 12:22pm giving you credit for your insight for this another article you wrote, let alone my other comments on your other blogs since then.
I’m sorry if that ruins the one-sided picture you are trying to paint of me. If you and Greg are too precious to handle a little healthy football banter then you shouldn’t be on a blog, you should be at home knitting crocheted bobble caps or some other soothing hobby that keeps away from other people and their variety of differing opinions.
I personally still do not have the slightest interest reading about your Ghotbi character, if you read some of the comments from other bloggers you would see I’m not the only one. Don’t let that stop you mentioning him in every blog until kingdom come if that’s what rings your bell.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 30th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I think that the interesting point is that why are great players given the option to coach at the highest level without proving themselves at a lower level prior, which is the case with “teacher coaches”. Whilst there are indeed successes there have also been notable failures. Often it is a case of passion preceding prudence.
Whether this is a good thing or not though is a matter for philosophical debate as prudence provides stability however it doesn’t always generate a culture of flair. Hence I tend to agree that the “teacher coach” route is the most sensible however I get enough sensible at work; I appreciate some frivolity in my sport though I must confess there is a treacherous part of my subconscious which declares “as long as it is not my team”.
Jesse Fink said | April 30th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Contrarian, for every 100 comments you make, one or two are positive or complimentary. That doesn’t excuse you from your persistent negativism. I can’t believe you have the hide to tell me and Greg to do something else than blog when all you seem to do is spend your life commenting negatively on ours. *You* write your own blog! Let’s see how popular it is. And frankly I couldn’t give a flying f*ck whether you or anyone else cares about Ghotbi. He’s newsworthy, interested in Australia and the Australian game and I’m happy to give him some coverage. It’s my blog. So if you don’t like it, take a hike.
Slippery Jim said | April 30th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Troll by Proxy, thank you for your comment.
Please don’t get a job in customer service or PR, you would fail miserably with the attitude you have. I can just imagine going into my local bank and being told if I don’t like their service I can take a hike. Might I suggest you endeavour to display at least a small degree of professionalism.
I appreciate your request that I write my own blog. As a matter of fact, my latest blog on this site was written two days ago, but thanks for the suggestion. You can read it here:
http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/04/28/frank-lampard-a-straight-shooter-on-the-pitch-and-on-the-radio/
You will find I try to keep my comments on blogs constructive, informative and related to football issues, not personal sprays. I have never, for instance, told you to go play with land mines, to jump off a cliff, or other personal attacks the way you have directed these at me in the past.
As an example of these “negative” posts I have posted on your blogs:
Your last Roar blog, my first comment starts with “Completely agree, Jesse…”
I also commented on the same blog later “Indeed, your insight shines through again, Jesse, as did your correct guess that the NC story was largely a media beatup…”
Just because not all of my comments are like those, as we do not and could not possibly agree on all football topics, does not mean I am a ‘contrarian’.
Most people I have blogged with about football recognize that a lot of my posts are tongue in cheek banter, are not entirely serious, and accept them as such.
Quite why someone who comes across as having a skerrick of humour about his articles (if not his comments to his readership) chooses to take comments as deadly serious, or view them in some dark paranoid light is beyond me.
Now why don’t we both agree to avoid personal comments and stick to football ones in future, hmmm?
Ben of Phnom Penh said | April 30th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
meanwhile back at the topic the debate was raging……
one problem with the “teacher coach” approach is that it works well for the top tier of football however coaches have to start somewhere. Should the A-League be viewed as the level that “player coaches” should begin their transition to “teacher coaches”, ala Vidmar, or should we be taking only those who have already proven themselves elsewhere, ala “Herbert”?
Art Sapphire said | April 30th 2009 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Ben – you hit the nail on the head. Everyone has to start somewhere.
Most “player” coaches who ended up making a name for themselves in the managerial game did their apprenticeship somewhere else before joining the big clubs.You have to earn your stripes. Good case in point is – Alex Ferguson.
Players who come out of media jobs to take over the reins of a club are more likely than not bound to fail.
Shearer’s appointment is the last desperate act of a desperate club and reeks of short termism.
“Teacher” coaches don’t have the cache of having a big name, so they have to work harder to make their progression.
In the end its results that matter.
whiskeymac said | April 30th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
and current results at that…. even great coaches with great records get raked through the muck eventually… Rijkard at Barca; Capello at Real; Clough at Leeds; Mourinho at Chelski and Ossie Ardiles at…or Christian Gross at… Juande Ramos at… oh hang on (Spurs really are too good at firing). It might be more than a stretch to call these guys failures, but they get treated as such once things dont work out, albeit temporarily.
when the rules of engagement change and the manager, teacher or player, has a bad run of results, for whatever reason, suddenly his “charisma” is replaced by “poor people skills” the once lauded become discarded and criticised.
Martin Jol ( i feel i had to nominate one other from Spurs) is a good example. Isn’t Jol now doing well in the bundesliga?
Vicentin said | April 30th 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Whiskeymac – good point, but in regards to Capello, I don’t think you could call his tenure at Real a real failure. He was employed – both times – to reinstate a culture of winning at the the club, and he won them La Liga twice (in two seasons) but was subsequently sacked because the football was boring. Now, I think the football – particularly the second time around, was pretty bad, but it also has to be said that he was given squads that were mentally a disaster area and on a player per player basis not as good as some other Real squads that we’ve seen. They wanted him to win, he had pretty blunt or rickety tools at his disposal and he did it for them …then they sacked him and opened the purse strings again …and sacked their subsequent managers for losing …Bernd Schuster in this current season. Sorry I can’t remember who was there in 96-97, or 97-98 (whenever) nor can I be arsed to look it up? Apologies if I got it all wrong but I don’t think so. Cheers
Sam said | April 30th 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Real Madrid has had too much politics in the last few years to be a winning club. They need to change some things for the long term benefit of the club. Even a great coach like Capello can’t change that. A coach if he wins the league or plays with style, is still always looking behind his back at Real. Barca these days have much more of an aura about them.
whiskeymac said | April 30th 2009 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
fair call – i guess i was just thinking of high profile managers who got sacked, whatever the reasons, because the politics or squad or media suddenly turned. I remember reading that Cappello was sacked because despite the silverware the club found it unacceptable in the manner it was achieved, even though results was what he was hired for. [For my part I genuinely like the way Capello has marshalled and harnessed the positives in England's squad, but certainly would find it a bit much to watch him replace Wenger, even if it means results... ]
I think that a manager’s success revolves around a fine line of variables. Hodgson was deemd a failure at Blackburn but is being lauded at Fulham….same guy, i assume same approach in the same football culture. Hughes was lauded at Blackburn but is hardly doing so well at Man City. (…trying to think of teachers and players to even the ledger there).
Slippery Jim said | April 30th 2009 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Hey Vicentin, re your park the bus comment earlier, an interesting fact from Giles Smith’s excellent recent article on the game:
http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~1642520,00.html
The ONLY club, EVER, during 2008-2009 to go to the Nou Camp and stop Barcelona from scoring is…can you guess? Eh? Eh? To build the suspense, the answer will be posted later…but I can tell you now, it is a pretty special club indeed!
Vicentin said | April 30th 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
SJ will have to read it later – running out of time but I think I know what the answer is. I have to say that I agree with a lot of the bloggers who suggest that sure, if you were Bolton or Blackburn or (poorly financed lower end of the table) you couldn’t really blame them for “parking it” – but this is Chelsea one of the richest teams in the world and with (arguably) some of the world’s greatest players. They were so scared of losing possession in their own half that they didn’t even try to pass it in their own half! I remember seeing Alex (?) being berated in the first half trying to playing it out from the back. Sorry but if any Italian team had played like that – how much sh@t would you guys be putting on them?! We’re supposed to believe that Chelsea was brave? Doesn’t compute for me.
Good result for Chelsea etc but you have your opinion and I’ll have mine. I’m not happy it worked.
This is from Spanish paper as quoted by Sid Lowe in one of his recent Guardian articles.
….He certainly wasn’t talking about the first – a game in which La Vanguardia pointedly described Didier Drogba as an island in a wide open sea, miles from anywhere, utterly isolated.
“What would you take on a desert island?” asks Carles Rupiérez. “You could always go to Didier Drogba for suggestions. He had 89 minutes to think about it last night, 89 minutes to choose a book, a CD, to go for a mobile phone or a Swiss army knife or a lighter to make fires. Every now and then Piqué or Márquez visited him as they went to collect some strange object his team-mates occasionally sent his way, always by air mail.”
Anthony Siokos said | April 30th 2009 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
The success of “teacher coaches” over “player coaches” is a direct manifestation of deeply tactical modern football. No longer can an experienced player step into the role of coach and think that their success as a player is an exclusive commodity. Modern football and its top flight clubs have coaching staff that look after specific areas (e.g. training, strength and conditioning, psychology etc.), while the coach is now more of a tactician, decision-maker and man-manager.
The best managers in the world are first and foremost consultative man-managers. “This is how I used to do it” just doesn’t cut it anymore. Mourinho, Benitez, Hiddink; these brilliant managers use both sides of the brain, the methodical left and conceptual right to outsmart their opponents. All of them have said it’s the details that make the difference at the top.
However, we live in a world of credibility. If you have been a successful player then you have expert power and the attention of a wider range of important people, hence the need for teacher coaches to work harder to get a go and prove their methods. Perceived credibility!
Kind of like Slippery Jim, he sooooooo wants to be Jesse Fink it oozes out in his comments. Fink has credibility, a successful book, experience with a number of magazines and blogs and a significant fan-base. Unlike, SJ. The bloke needs to bring out his own line of black pots and kettles, the Slippery Jim Series or something to that effect. All he does is accuse people of acting in the very way he does. Still, he probably thinks he’s keeping Fink honest. I’d like to end all of this constant banter between the two of them and suggest a bout in the ring. The Fink v SJ title fight!!!
Slippery Jim said | May 1st 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Well gee willikers, Anthony, it sounds like you’re a real Jesse fanboy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of a lot of his work too, but you just take it to a whole other level.
I see you are something of an aspiring blogger yourself, if your work at mrfootball is anything to go by. Let’s see…30 long blog articles and a grand total of – how many? 13 comments garnered from readers. What was that about pots and kettles? At least I garner a few more comments than that.
I don’t particularly want to turn this into a pissing contest, but you are not in a position to compare merits as for all you know I could be Brian Glanville or Simon Kupar.
Or her Majesty Queen Elizabeth of England.
I’m not hiding behind that, just making the point that if you take reputations and personal histories away, we are left with argument and counterpoint, an objective reasoned conversation that addresses issues, not individuals, which is the beauty and strength of blogs. Until chaps like you start presuming and inventing imaginary backstories and profiles of bloggers, to discredit otherwise logical and reasoned points you happen to disagree with, that is.
My point is, why wade in and act all splinetic, making personal attacks about someone you do not know and have never met? I doubt anyone else on the roar wants to read these bitchy sort of remarks from you, me or anyone else. Kind of distracts from the football talk.
As for my accusing people of acting in the very way I do, please tell me when I have ever wished violent bodily harm on anyone on a blog, or written a personal attack on anyone. Yet Jesse has done this to me, one of his regular and long standing readers, several times, simply because on occasion I sometimes disagree with his viewpoint, and explain my reasons for this.
If you think that’s acceptable then you deserve each other.
I repeat: why don’t we all agree to avoid personal comments and stick to football ones in future.
whiskeymac said | May 1st 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
no bites yet Anthony Siokis? disappointing. as i wonder which blogger would have the most success in a fight. the experienced professional or the edgy aspirant? possibly comparable to the scientifc boxer versus a brawler…. such a contest is reminiscent of that most amazing of hybrid sports “chessboxing” (. the rules of engagement could be to write a 200 word article on “why Ghotbi is a better coach than Carle is a player”, and on posting the blogger then can proceed to pick up his gloves….
back to football – percieved credibility is important and gets you so far… – i dont think many outside of Newcastle, for example, percieve Shearer as more than a newbie at the game he graced as a player. He too will have to earn his stripes. Keane’s attempts at Sunderland were marvellously mixed and doomed.
Coaches can reinvent themselves too though – McClaren in Holland (ridiculous accents aside).
whiskeymac said | May 1st 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
ah theres the bite. i agree wholeheartedly. football talk on football blogs and chess boxing for the russians.
Slippery Jim said | May 1st 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
hahahha! Whiskeymac, good idea for an article.
Reminds me of the time I wrote a counter article to Pippu’s complaint about the Vics being conspired against by refs entitled something like “Melbourne are a dirty team”. Amused me no end just imagining the expression on his face when he read it.
Of course, Pippu had his usual good grace to laugh about it and take it for the good natured article it was rather than mistaking it for some sort of unacceptable vicious attack on his manhood.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 1st 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Indeed we should concentrate on the football though I must confess that the bile has improved my vocabulary somewhat.
Pippinu said | May 1st 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
sj
…and another thing – just becuase we won the triple – it doesn’t mean that the FFA and all refs haven’t got it in for us!!!
Jesse Fink said | May 1st 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
At least Anthony’s gone out and done something off his own back. Not piggyback (or is that be a limpet?) on the reputation of someone else or the good name of The Roar.
“Please tell me when I have ever wished violent bodily harm on anyone on a blog, or written a personal attack on anyone. Yet Jesse has done this to me, one of his regular and long standing readers, several times, simply because on occasion I sometimes disagree with his viewpoint.”
You poor flower. Playing on your handle, I suggested you slip off that cliff that is your address. Big whoop. What a bad man I am.
eh said | May 1st 2009 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
like your blogs jesse, even when/ if I don’t always agree with you, but this side issue stoush needs to be starved of oxygen.
Slippery Jim said | May 1st 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
*sigh*
Define limpet.
Someone who uses a website that invites comments and articles from its readership? Someone who uses a publisher? Someone who capitalises on the wave of publicity surrounding the Socceroos success at qualification for the last world cup?
Or do we all need to set up our own publishing corporations and be founding members of websites now to spare ourselves the ignominy of being called a limpet? Talk sense, man.
As for the wish that I fell off a cliff, what an amusing pun it was. As was the one suggesting I go blow myself up with landmines or words to that effect.
Another hilarious turn of phrase.
If these qualify as appropriate comments to make, I’d hold your tongue the next time you take a flight as you may find yourself getting unwanted attention from customs.
No, those comments were the very definition of an inappropriate personal attack, the kind of thing that gets reported and removed from the roar every week, much like the one the other day in which a blogger told one of the other roar of the crowd writers to go hang himself because he was such a hack.
Not the kind of thing we deserve or expect from bloggers, let alone professional writers, to say the least.
whiskeymac said | May 1st 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
getting back to footy, just for a minute, is there any scope for any of our socceroos to make the transition? Arnie will always get a good blogging… but how about GVE or Muscat etc? can the Aleague be a place where coaches learn, just like the upcoming players, or should it be considered more of a place for the already accomplished and polished manager to strut around in? is the NYL the place for new coaches to learn or is it more important for the yout to be given proven tuition?
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 1st 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
I’m undecided on that one, whiskeymac. There is a part of me that would like to see the more established coaches take the reins, ala Ghotbi (which incidentally was one of the reasons he was newsworthy as it is part of this current debate) however I am unsure as to the development pathway of senior coaches. I would imagine that most coaches in the A-League should indeed begin as either NYL coaches, state league coaches or as assistant coaches to existing A-League coaches.
However I may be underselling the capacity of individuals, particularly those that have undertaken the AFC coaching license.
Does anyone know if the FFA has an official view on this?
Jesse Fink said | May 1st 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Eh, I agree. But he keeps coming back for more. If he weren’t so provocative, such as posting Ghotbi is “the biggest non-story in football” moments after I’d spent two hours writing a piece on Iranian football, I wouldn’t even notice him. But he’s a dyed-in-the-wool contrarian whose pettiness and vindictiveness comes through in everything he turns his hand to. Many posters on here disagree with my views. That is par for the course and I am happy to be debated. But unlike them he shows no respect. That’s the difference. And anyone who’s been following this column since year dot will know what I’m talking about. Limpet.
Kazama said | May 1st 2009 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
whiskeymac, my view is that our coaches should be learning as assistants first, whether it be A-League, NYL or even overseas (yeah, I’m dreaming there, I know).
We should have the best coaches we can afford helming both the A-League and NYL sides, and the up and coming Aussie coaches assisting them. IMO that would be the best scenario for all considered aspects / levels of the game here.
whiskeymac said | May 1st 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
definitely Kazama – we should have the best we can, and accept nothing less.
I do like the practice of established coaches taking apprentice coaches under their wings to pass on knoweldge etc (i think liverpool were very good at this with shankly-paisley…all the way to roy evans). Curiously though, did Aurelio Vidmar serve a great apprenticeship under Kossie or should he have tried his hand at an over seas club first? he has had great results, but could he have been even better with a few years overseas coaching? I know it’s hypothetical at best but on a friday arvo that’s all i have…and in line with that, is blieberg really the best coach to groom Okon etc?
Kazama said | May 1st 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Regarding Vidmar, personally I would have liked him to serve one more year as an assistant. At the time there were some decently-credentialed coaches from Brazil interested in taking the reigns and I would have though serving under someone like that would have done a world of good for Viddie. Of course he’s done very well so far, but he’s made some silly mistakes too and IMO he wouldn’t have made as many of them if he’d had a longer apprenticeship under a good coach. I hope he keeps learning though and eventually ends up coaching overseas. It’d be great to have an Aussie managing in a top European league. I can dream, I hope Viddie can too.
As for Miron / Okon, well it’s just my opinion of course but I think there are better out there, but much worse also. At least Miron likes to play good football. It would have been nice to see Clive splash the cash and get a big name coach / technical director but he had his heart set on Miron. Okon isn’t an idiot though, he should be fine. I can see him having as much early success as Viddie. I think he’ll bring plenty to the table when he gets the reigns. Maybe Clive can buy a top coach for his youth team instead.
Midfielder said | May 1st 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Jes
Off topic … maybe … but also maybe right on topic …. massive announcement today by FFA copied below..this is happening on top of the U 13 squad is very good news moving forward … makes me a happy mann
http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/2009InsideFFA/default.aspx?s=insideffa_newsfeatures_newsitem_new&id=27292
FFA launches blueprint for international success
Friday, 1 May 2009
Football Federation Australia (FFA) today announced another new landmark initiative with the unveiling of a new National Football Curriculum (NFC) which has the long term aim of improving the skill level, quality and performance of Australia’s top players and teams.
“The National Football Curriculum is the next important stage of the Talent Identification Development Review and the National Football Development Plan that was announced in November 2007,” said FFA CEO, Ben Buckley.
“It sets the blueprint for the quality and style of Australian football for the future and aims to significantly improve our skill levels.
“It is the first time we have had a national curriculum which sets the basis for the development of all young players and coaches, whether at community or elite level.”.
“The key objective is to create a talented player development program that emphasises skill and sustains international success for generations to come, as well as a coach development system that produces quality coaches who are able to implement the curriculum and realise similar goals,” Buckley said.
The NFC has been developed by researching best practice in talent development and identification in football and other sports and tailoring it to football in Australia.
The evidence-based curriculum has been developed by FFA’s National Technical Director, Han Berger, following on from preliminary work by the previous National Technical Director, Rob Baan.
Berger, who started in the role in January, will oversee implementation of the NFC.
“The new national curriculum recognises two streams of development,” Berger said.
“The first is for talented players who aim to play the highest level possible, and the second is for community players who just want to play the game and enjoy the sport..”
Berger said the NFC is for male and female footballers aged between 6-19 years, from those playing Optus Small Sided Football to the 11-a-side competitive environment.
The guiding principles of the NFC are:
- the approach is ‘game-related’ rather that ‘isolated’, which impacts all training and exercises
- an emphasis on skill development
- a proactive style of playing that corresponds with the Australian competitive psyche
- the mandating of the 1-4-3-3 formation for all FFA controlled development teams (eg. Qantas Joeys, Westfield Young Matildas) as the best developmental model, and the best structure for the proactive playing style
- the integration and mutual dependency of physical conditioning with football training so that they are not separated
Berger has consulted with all national coaches, Institute coaches and State Technical Directors as well as Member Federations in developing the curriculum.
Berger said that, as part of the implementation process, a number of actions are required to ensure compliance to the curriculum. These include:
- It will be mandated for national development teams and for programs under FFA (and member Federation) control
- Each State/Territory will appoint a Technical Director, funded under the FFA’s new Member Federation Charter, with the State Technical Director reporting to the National Technical Director
- Coach Education Programs will be reviewed to reflect the NFC
- Specific levels of coaching qualification will be required for all higher level coaching positions (National Team, Hyundai A-League, Westfield W-League, National Youth League, Institute and State technical Directors)
- By 2010 each State/Territory will need to appoint at least one ‘Skill Acquisition Trainer’ whose role will be to ensure that skill development programs for talented players are universally implemented.
- Football Clubs, schools and academies will be accredited and rated. Adoption of the Curriculum will be a pre-requisite to accreditation and rating
Additional material will be added to the NFC to assist coaches and clubs with the ongoing implementation.
The NFC will begin an Australia-wide roll out in the coming months.
Greg said | May 1st 2009 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
I wholeheartedly agree with SJ that Jesse’s cliff & landmine comments are offensive and should be removed.
Jesse, while you write the little article that gets the bloggers blogging, the readers comments including SJ’s are much more interesting than your articles.
Your self titled following is in fact due to the bloggers, not you.
SJ is right, stick to the football. Not everyone agrees with your views, but that is no crime.
Jesse Fink said | May 1st 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Oh Greg, of course, how silly of me. It’s the egg not the chicken – or is it the other way around?
Anthony Siokos said | May 1st 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
“I don’t particularly want to turn this into a pissing contest, but you are not in a position to compare merits as for all you know I could be Brian Glanville or Simon Kupar. Or her Majesty Queen Elizabeth of England.
I’m not hiding behind that, just making the point that if you take reputations and personal histories away, we are left with argument and counterpoint, an objective reasoned conversation that addresses issues, not individuals, which is the beauty and strength of blogs.
At least I use my real name. Not hiding? That’s exactly what you’re doing! The fact that you mentioned it before I did proves that fact. What are you scared of, Fink knocking on your door…? lol. I hear he’s been in the gym and taking boxing lessons. Apparently he wears a green pair of Hulk-like gloves with the words “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee” embroidered on them. Sounds scary!
“Until chaps like you start presuming and inventing imaginary backstories and profiles of bloggers, to discredit otherwise logical and reasoned points you happen to disagree with, that is. My point is, why wade in and act all splinetic, making personal attacks about someone you do not know and have never met? I doubt anyone else on the roar wants to read these bitchy sort of remarks from you, me or anyone else. Kind of distracts from the football talk.”
Wasn’t it you talking about tongue-in-cheek humour? Oooooh, that’s right, on your terms only as you sit on your high horse as chief of the counter-arguers, the union boss of blog rights. Your stalking of Fink’s blogs is nothing short of manic.
“As for my accusing people of acting in the very way I do, please tell me when I have ever wished violent bodily harm on anyone on a blog, or written a personal attack on anyone. Yet Jesse has done this to me, one of his regular and long standing readers, several times, simply because on occasion I sometimes disagree with his viewpoint, and explain my reasons for this.” If you think that’s acceptable then you deserve each other.
You sometimes disagree with his point of view?! Laughable. You’re like one of those little fish who sit under the belly of a shark, you won’t leave him alone.
I’ll give you credit for knowing your stuff, I’ll also give you credit for your ability to debate but try some of your own medicine, stick to football. As for my blog, I’m flattered you spend the time to research how many articles I’ve written and how many comments. It’s not The Roar and never meant to be.
I repeat: why don’t we all agree to avoid personal comments and stick to football ones in future.
Sure boss, anything you say.
Slippery Jim said | May 2nd 2009 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Anthony, Anthony, Anthony.
You really are a sock puppet, aren’t you? If you are going to turn up out of the blue to join in a conversation which is not related to you at all in the first place, at least try to add something original to it. Jesse has already called me a limpet (and by extension, implied it of all the other bloggers who have posted the 69 comments on his blog) and tried to brand me a stalker.
When it comes to the former, it is ironic and somewhat eye-opening to see how someone who blogs for a living really feels about his readers and contributors.
I recall what seemed at the time to be righteous indignation coming from Jesse’s Roar article “let’s get some more lunatics in the Asylum” directed at John Kosmina for his comment to an internet Journo. Jesse quoted Kossie this way: “Ah, internet,” he [Kossie] said, rolling his eyeballs and letting a Dr Evil-like grin crease his lips like he’d just come up with the joke to end all jokes. “Lets the lunatics out the asylum. The lunatics run the asylum.”
What followed was Jesse pointing out, rightly, the value and relevance of the internet, including blogs, when it comes to football issues.
Next thing you know he’s calling his own bloggers limpets, as if it is ‘the joke to end all jokes’. Charming.
As for the “manic stalker” comment, give me a break!
When Jesse started his blog on the Roar, he sent an email to me and about a dozen of his regular blog readers inviting us to follow him across to the Roar, to leave our thoughts, and to read his articles. So if the guy never wanted me to comment on his articles, why specifically invite me? Way back when he was at Fox, I was occasionally disagreeing with him on some issues (Nick Carle etc) just the same as I do now.
If you sent an invitation to a group of friends to come around to your house for dinner one evening, would you then accuse them of being manic stalkers and take out a restraining order on the ones that had the gall to turn up? Who would be the ‘manic’ one in that scenario?
I am not usually even the one making the most comments on Jesse’s articles (despite having to fend of twits like you who feel slighted at having been stirred by me some time in the distant past).
Number of comments (from most recent to least recent Jesse Fink articles on the Roar):
Pippu 15
SJ 13
Sam 5
AGO74 4
Vicentin & Kazama 3
—
Ben of PP 7
Midfielder 5
The Bear & SJ 3
Jesse & DaSilva 2
—
Dasilva & SJ 13
Jesse 10
Midfielder 8
The Bear 6
Jimbo 5
No poster should ever be called either a limpet or a stalker, but surely a ‘manic stalker’ would be top of the above lists every single time, rain or shine.
Is Pippu, Ben of Phnom Penh, DaSilva, or Jesse himself a manic stalker? According to these stats and your reasoning, they must be! In actual fact I have not commented on several recent articles Jesse has written, either here or on TWG, for whatever reason.
In point of fact, others have pointed out (as even Jesse alluded to) that I have done him a favour by stimulating debate and generating comments on a lot of his blogs. One poster even thought I was secretly a pseudonymous Jesse created for the express purpose of creating comment on his own articles!
It is interesting that you have not commented on any of the last three articles Jesse has written on the Roar, yet choose to dive in out of nowhere with a sharp uppercut to the old jawbone on this one. What does that say about you, your input, and your motives Anthony?
Food for thought, even for us limpets.
Anthony Siokos said | May 2nd 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Interesting question Slippery Jim. What would my motives for stirring you be? After all, I did say you knew your stuff and were a good debater. So why, then? Hmmm.
You cut me SJ, cut me deep… lol.
Jesse giving Anthony medical attention after Slippery Jim’s hurtful comments
Slippery Jim said | May 2nd 2009 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
ha ha! And you said I had to cut my fingernails…are you saying Jesse has lady fingers, Anthony?! That’s sure to spark a round in the ring with him for sure!!!
Art Sapphire said | May 5th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
I could not help myself
In the last great battle of the coaches fought on the weekend
Teacher Coach Juande Ramos 2 got destroyed by Player Coach Pep Guardiola 6.
Player coach Guardiola’s version of “Total Football” wins universal accaim.
Next Round:
Teacher Coach Hiddink vs Player Coach Guardiola.
I, and most of the footballing planet, hope the Player coach wins this battle.
Because, there is more to football than just getting results (ala Hiddink, Mourinho).