Comments on: How can one tell a great five-eighth in the making?

By: Lindommer

Lindommer — Wed, 27 May 2009 00:32:42 +0000

Terry Kidd: “Jerry and Jameswn are getting close. It was Greg Cornelson in a NSW City v NSW Country match in 1978.”

I don’t know what game your were at Terry, but it wasn’t NSW City v NSW Country, that was at Orange last week. Rugby used to play Sydney v NSW Country (which in those days included ACT). The game in question was at T G Millner Field in 1975, well before Cornelsen moved to Queensland. Country repeated the ruse against a visiting England later that year leading to the Poms compainig to the IRFU and a ban on “up-the-jumper” plays.

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Thu, 14 May 2009 19:17:51 +0000

DaniE you are quite correct. The game was a cracker. I watched it on ABC TV at the time with I think Trevor Allen calling it. At the time I was playing League and the next year joined the Army, from there I have played rugby and loved it. That game was the catalyst that got me thinking about and watching rugby …. maybe why it sticks in my mind.

By: DaniE

DaniE — Thu, 14 May 2009 13:50:42 +0000

Terry, Country came away with the game 22-20 over City… the game would have been a cracker – thankfullly there is great footage of the up the jumper try!

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Thu, 14 May 2009 12:27:57 +0000

Backing up Matt’s point about the influence of NRL, here’s another snippet from the 2005 article from which I took the quote by Dwyer (remember this is Beale talking as a schoolboy):

“[Beale] said his big left- and right-foot steps were moves taken from his rugby league heroes. “I like a lot of guys from rugby league,” said Beale, naming Matt Bowen, Benji Marshall and Sonny Bill Williams.”

By: Frank O'Keeffe

Frank O'Keeffe — Thu, 14 May 2009 10:07:43 +0000

I forgot to add, there was a shocking statistic that existed mid-season this year. The Waratah’s, from about 70-80 set pieces, hadn’t gotten the ball out to their wings once!

By: Frank O'Keeffe

Frank O'Keeffe — Thu, 14 May 2009 10:06:39 +0000

I never understood the Mark Ella v Curtley Beale comparison. Mark Ella was all about working without space, sucking in defenders, and most importantly providing his outside backs with opportunities. Curtley Beale, to me, isn’t a constructive five-eighth. He enjoys attacking the advantage line with the ball in hand, like Mark Ella, but quite often he has a go himself way too often. Some of Rod Kafer’s delightful analysis has revealed several instances this season where Beale could have, and should have, offloaded the ball in many instances where better scoring possibilities were available out wide. Beale just isn’t a constructive player.

Kafer did a great job at showing how Beale is also struggling with long passes, which is a worry since Beale’s been around for a few seasons now. Cooper, while he’s been inconsistent, doesn’t have the same problem.

I remember thinking last year that Beale would improve and then maybe one day challenge for the wallaby no. 10. I have to say he’s pretty far from it right now.

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 14 May 2009 09:41:38 +0000

Being a rep coach at Under 20′s level I get to see the impact/influence the NRL has on many young players. The fact that it is so readily available on prime time, free to air TV means young players are exposed to NRL style play and habits much more than they are to rugby. It’s not hard to see where Beale and Cooper get alot of their influences from, the extravagant sidesteps, cute kicks, overplaying their hands and poor options.

Whilst they are both obviously talented I agree that they both were rushed prematurely into playmaking roles with their respective provinces before they had proven their mettle.

As for the crop of Wallabies and the makeup of the side I agree Barnes should take the #10 shirt with Guiteau outside him in #12. Guiteau, fantastic player he is, still made some odd choices at first reciever last season…choices that a composed flyhalf like Barnes would never have made. For what it is worth I don’t think Stirling Mortlock will make the side at #13…Ryan Cross with his beautiful running lines and ability to find the tryline is in better form and will only get better. Cross and Mortlock play the same position in remarkably different ways…Mortlock is the more direct, hard in contact type while Cross proves the addage that “rugby is a contact game made all the easier when you don’t make contact” every time he runs those wonderful outside lines and cruises into open space.

Personally, I can’t wait for the international series to start…It’s a very exciting time for Australian rugby, plenty of talent to choose from and a great coach who will be better for having his first year out of the way.

By: Dan the Main Man

Dan the Main Man — Thu, 14 May 2009 06:39:00 +0000

All this talk of over-hyped schoolboy players reminds me of the mid 90s when Elton Flatley started being picked in the Nudgee 1st XV in grade 9 (he must have only been about 14!!). That a 14yo could be picked at five-eighth in what was, at the time, the strongest schoolboy team in australia, was amazing. Yet, Flatley was never quite able to live up to the expectations. Sure, he was picked for QLD straight out of school, and was in the Australian team within 2-3 yrs but he never really dominated as the “14yo wunderkind” tag might have implied. Perhaps its because he got stuck behind Larkham or perhaps the constant niggling inuries never allowed him to get his game on properly.

By: katzilla

katzilla — Thu, 14 May 2009 05:34:12 +0000

‘As a footballer, why would you give up a beach life for a cold and bitter Winter in the Nations Capital……??????’

Frank, probably for two reasons, Australias most successful team so the best chance of winning a title.
And also because people in the ACT actually give a damn about the rugby.
Best ground i’ve watched super 14 at, AND THE BAR STAYED OPEN AFTER THE GAME!!!!

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Thu, 14 May 2009 02:55:11 +0000

Jerry and Jameswn are getting close. It was Greg Cornelson in a NSW City v NSW Country match in 1978. It was Greg Cornelsen who scored 4 tries in a Bledisloe test. The final answer is needed …. what was the final score in that City v Country game? A hint … it was close, the ball up the jumper trick and the try made the difference …. any takers?

By: Frank

Frank — Thu, 14 May 2009 01:32:31 +0000

Toomua is something special, the next Dan Carter no doubt……never over plays his hand…..a true 5/8……Tip, Gitz to go back to inside centre next year….

The brumbies are looking hot next year, what are the odds????, it would sure be a better bet than Firepower…….also what are they to do with all the emerging talent + veterans + O’Connor……( James is definitely going to leave the Force, the Brumbies will be his first pick no doubt and why not)
With Gitz, Leafano, Toomua, Smith, Mortlock, Cooper, and potentially O’connor……. shit hot…..and the forward pack aren’t bad either

So, why does the Brumbies program attract and keep so many high profile players??? As a footballer, why would you give up a beach life for a cold and bitter Winter in the Nations Capital……??????

Further, all brumbies players seem so loyal to the program and there fellow players…..no one seems to want to run away to another team…..Why?????

I can only think of 2 second rowers who have turned there back and fled to NSW

is it the coach…..
Is it because they bread more wallabies than any other province……???
Is there less internal politics and media scrutiny?????

Please tell me the secret ingredient, it might save mighty Western force from an impending death…

By: Jameswm

Jameswm — Wed, 13 May 2009 23:48:40 +0000

Wasn’t it when playing for a country team?

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:49:16 +0000

Based on your last question, I’m gonna guess it was Greg Cornelson who of course scored 4 tries for the Wallabies in 78. No idea when he may have done the up the jumper move though.

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:46:24 +0000

Here are another couple of great trivia questions:

Who stuck the ‘ball up the jumper’ in a great move that lead to a try?
What game was it and when?
What was the final score?
How many tries did that player later score in a Bledisloe test?

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 13 May 2009 20:46:04 +0000

I’m not saying Luke didn’t play 10 for the Secondary Schools team, I’m saying he played for that team after Carter would have already left school. Luke may have kept Dan on the bench for the Colts though. Gopperth was the 10 for the Secondary Schools in 2001 (even though he’s only a couple of months older than Luke) and is probably the guy who was ahead of Carter.

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Wed, 13 May 2009 11:36:04 +0000

In 2002, McAlister made the following rep teams:

New Zealand Colts
New Zealand Under 19
New Zealand Secondary Schools
North Harbour RFU

By: katzilla

katzilla — Wed, 13 May 2009 11:17:30 +0000

Jerry – They were both in 20s in 2002 i think. But both would have hit End of School at the same time, and McAlister definately was a School boy rep first five. If im wrong then it is by a year at most. I know that Carter had to bench it for a bit in the 20s for McAlister

By: Knives Out

Knives Out — Wed, 13 May 2009 10:19:54 +0000

‘It is a truly golden era that we are entering. Bring it and the 5th Aust. Super rugby team……….’

I don’t know what you mean, Ohtani. I think you’re perpetuating an inaccurate stereotype.

By: True Tah

True Tah — Wed, 13 May 2009 09:44:01 +0000

Jets the problem with the QRU development program is that it is working for the Brumbies and Force, and sadly not the Reds.

What is wrong with the Reds recruitment – they lose these sort of players, and have to recruit a bunch of Kiwi and NSW hasbeens???

By: Jets

Jets — Wed, 13 May 2009 09:16:50 +0000

It should be mentioned that at the 2006 Australian Schoolboy championships Queensland II took out the title. NSW I had Beale at 5/8, QLD I had Cooper and QLD II had a grade 11 kid named Matt Toomua who organised his team with great skill.

I watched a fair bit of Cooper and Toomua as schoolboy players and they were both wonderful to watch. Cooper was brilliant and could win a game on his own while Toomua would always get the best out of the players around him. I hope that Toomua is not looked at as a player who must be rushed in before the next RWC but given time to grow and develop with the U20′s for the next 2 years and with the Brumbies after that he could be added to an extended Wallaby squad if he is developing well.

I also think Cooper and Beale will be Wallabies. I have always thought Cooper would be best played at 15 while Beale is growing into a 12.

I must say that Qld GPS rugby over the last few years has been blessed with some great talent. Cooper, Toomua and O’Connor just to name a few. While the Reds have not been doing great on the scoreboard the QRU development programs have been working.

By: Working Class Rugger

Working Class Rugger — Wed, 13 May 2009 08:21:44 +0000

I think people are being far too harsh with Beale. He’s never been managed properly. McKenzie sent him in far too early and Hickey just doesn’t know what he’s doing.

By: Campbell Watts

Campbell Watts — Wed, 13 May 2009 08:05:58 +0000

WCR

Wasn’t inferring they are gone for good – just that they have missed their chance for selection in the early season tests. I should have been clearer.

Believe Cooper will make future squads as he has shown he can shine in the Wallaby environment, but have my doubts about Beale. I suspect Deans would not look kindly on Beale’s over-all attitude. I believe he would select more deserving people – say less skilled but better work ethic/team players.

By: Working Class Rugger

Working Class Rugger — Wed, 13 May 2009 06:40:58 +0000

The guy I feel for is Christian Leilifano. Has shown potential but has had a indifferent season. Probably has found himself falling from 1st choice 5/8 to 2nd and all of the sudden to 3rd.

By: Working Class Rugger

Working Class Rugger — Wed, 13 May 2009 06:37:16 +0000

Campbell

I have to disagree. Neither Beale or Cooper are gone. In Beale’s case he was the golden boys thrust int the limelight before he was ready. Even the Ella’s played club Rugby. Beale needed a year or so. It didn’t help that there wasn’t a class 5/8 with experience at the Tahs. Thats probably what has been O’Connor great advantage. So many teams worry about the class and skill of Giteau and f orget about him. Only to be punished during the game. Beale has shown glimpses of what he is capable of the past couple of weeks and should stay at inside centre next season before moving back into 5/8 in 2011.

Cooper has been struggling while Barnes has been out. Barnes is a very good player and stabilises Cooper’s flair. Without him Cooper has been struggling to control games. He should really be playing at 12 also. Toomua will next be gifted the time and space to develop with the return of Giteau. He too should make the move to 12. Then Andy friend will have the envious position having to find places for Tyrone Smith who has had a very solid year and Gene Fairbanks.

By: Campbell Watts

Campbell Watts — Wed, 13 May 2009 06:21:22 +0000

Think both Beale and Cooper have missed their opportunity to shine for Deans to be honest.

Too much mercurial talent at a young age can cause problems I think once these players hit the big league. If their work ethic isn’t 100% there can be a tendency to rest on their natural talent a bit too much – a tactic that has always worked well at the schoolboy level for these type of players.

Once the chips are down and they realise it’s a lot harder at S14 level these type of players can plateau and not achieve to the levels predicted for them at a younger age. I look at Beale’s lack of effort over the off-season and the resultant weight problem he had at the start of the season as an example.

O’Connor may have pipped them both at the post for a Wallabies spot come the start of the tri-nations!

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:59:36 +0000

Luke McAlister played for the NZ Secondary Schools in 2002 by which time Dan Carter was 20 years old, so unless Dan failed 5th form a couple of times, he’s not the guy either. McCullum is the right age, but I’ve only ever heard of him keeping Carter out of the South Island side, not the NZ side. Another possibility is Jimmy Gopperth who was in the Secondary Schools side in 2001.

By: Harry

Harry — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:47:58 +0000

Great comments and points made here but I agree mostly with my favourite Aussie-bater OJ who rightly mocks our obsession with schoolboy superstars automatically becoming the worlds best player ever in their first year or two out of school. In Beale and Cooper’s case this was exacerbated by their agents milking them for all they could in their first year out of school – I recall a couple of ludicrous stunts eg. Cooper’s agent wrote a letter to Knuckles (conveniently leaked to the sycophantic and foolish rugby journalist who gave it the airplay the agent wanted) saying Cooper needed to be picked now for the Wallabies (this was 2007) and paid a Giteau-like salary otherwise he was of to league. Ridiculous and has done his player no good at all.
History lesson – even the great Mark Ella struggled to find his feet in senior rugby after graduating from schoolboy rugby. I can recall Ella getting his arz absolutely handed to him on a plate at Ballymore by Paul McLean and the very strong Qld team circa 1979 or 80 for instance, a few of the UK touring teams (Ireland or Scotland) and of course our provincial friends from NZ.
Re Fairbanks he is precisely the sort of player who should be at the Reds (yet another Qlder who we have missed out on,up to circa 2000 these players would generally stick to home).
Good luck for Toomua anyway. But after the S14 he can then play the U20 tournament then go back to club rugby (Easts – in Brisbane of course!) for another few months of learning the senior game – quietly and without hype.
Can’t resist adding wouldn’t it be great if he could play in the ARC as well at season’s end. Which reminds me Site Boss – when is JON going to get back to us with answers to our questions of last week?

By: Bulldog

Bulldog — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:43:01 +0000

Who Needs Melon – I understand your concern. It is now up to the powers that be to make sure he is nurtured properly and not damaged in the process. As a Force supporter I would like to see him stay in WA however I hope that when he makes a decision on whether he goes or stays that he chooses the best development option regardless of the $’s and hype that are being thrust at him in the process.

By: Rob

Rob — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:35:37 +0000

The system or whatever you want to call it in Aust.rugby encourages coaches to ” kill the goose that laid the golden egg.” In other words the coaches at maybe club and certainly s14 level are under so much pressure to perform they won’t take a long term view of a players career. They want results and they want them now . So talented but immature players are thrown to the wolves in the hope of instant success. If those players were put on contract but held back to gain more experience then they would be better off for it in the long term. And that is the key point . We rarely mention long term goals and while we always hear words such as talent and potential we rarely hear the word maturity. And some of these players while having heaps of talent haven’t matured yet , It is a risk that those players careers could end prematurely because of poor management.

By: Who Needs Melon

Who Needs Melon — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:15:20 +0000

Bulldog! WCR! Shhhh!!!

O’Connor “will surpass all others to become one of the greatest players in OZ rugby history”!

PLEASE let’s not overinflate expectations for yet another player… even if it IS true.