By Mike Tuckerman
May 14th 2009 @ 1:20am
Related coverage
A-League expansion must also improve quality
Liverpool's Robbie Fowler celebrates scoring the third goal against 1. FC Kosice during the UEFA Cup, first round, second match at Liverpool's Anfield stadium Tuesday Sept. 29, 1998. AP Photo/Adam Butle
The Federal Minister for Trade Simon Crean was in Shanghai last week, proclaiming his delight at the AFL’s plan to stage a one-off exhibition match in the city next year. But if the Australian Government wants to improve trading ties within the region, they’re better off spruiking the A-League.
Sydney FC have already forged commercial links with Shanghai Shenhua, while Melbourne Victory will attempt to defend the Lord Mayor’s Cup against Tianjin Teda in June.
Billionaire mining magnate Clive Palmer has long established ties with China, and his desire to bring Chinese players to Gold Coast United is well known.
However, the AFL’s desire to tap into an Asian market is a sign that generating new revenue streams is crucial in an increasingly competitive scene.
The National Basketball League has been the highest profile casualty of the new squeeze, while the NRL’s cash-starved Cronulla Sharks are at death’s door unless they can increase gate takings.
None of this is news to Football Federation Australia.
Only recently the governing body took over the licences of A-League clubs Adelaide United and Brisbane Roar – the latter of whom are struggling to break even playing out of the costly Suncorp Stadium.
But even amidst the global credit crunch, there’s cause for optimism at FFA headquarters.
High-profile visits from the likes of Celtic, Wolves and Fulham give A-League clubs the chance to replenish coffers at the expense of the unloved Pre-Season Cup.
Newcastle Jets remain in contention for a place in the knock-out stages of the Asian Champions League – despite well-documented grievances over bonus payments.
And the arrival of Robbie Fowler at North Queensland Fury has generated the level of interest expected of a marquee signing, even if Perth Glory fail to sign the similarly high-profile Alvaro Recoba.
But despite the anticipation of what will be the most eagerly awaited campaign since the inaugural season, one caveat remains.
The standard of football must continue to improve if A-League clubs are to attract new fans through the gates.
That could be easier said than done.
The talent pool is now spread across two extra clubs, and a quick glance at both Gold Coast United and North Queensland Fury shows several players lobbing up for their second stint in the A-League – having failed to make an impact the first time around.
Gold Coast United have attempted to redress the situation by luring former Hartlepool striker Joel Porter back from England’s third tier, and United supremo Miron Bleiberg was apoplectic when Hartlepool coach Chris Turner suggested that Porter was taking a step down.
But unless United can turn on the style, they too may struggle to fill the surrounds of their plush Skilled Stadium home.
Perhaps that’s why United are reputedly trying to lure disgruntled Brisbane Roar fans south with the offer of discount memberships to former Roar season-ticket holders.
It just goes to show how cut-throat the crowded sports market currently is.
While Gold Coast United may benefit from luring one-time Roar supporters to their fixtures, the A-League will ultimately lose out should established fans simply switch allegiances.
That’s why new fans need to be welcomed into the football family – and one of the best ways to do that is by selling the quality of the league.
The recruitment of players like Jason Culina and Robbie Fowler will help, while the National Youth League has already started to churn out the stars of tomorrow.
Yet with some Australian football fans still to be won over by the local game, it’s imperative that standards continue to rise.
Expansion may open new revenue streams for the A-League, but the quality of the league must grow exponentially along with the addition of any new teams.
Otherwise the A-League may become the equivalent of some of the bad Chinese dumplings so popular in my part of the world – tempting at first, but containing dubious filling.
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Kazama said | May 14th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
I agree Mike. It’s a long held fear of mine that adding new teams will stretch the talent pool to the point that there will be a lot of ‘rejects’ running around, and as you say there are quite a few players on the rosters of the two new clubs who are having their second crack at it. Probably a few more will pop up to fill gaps at clubs like my own, Adelaide United, due to players heading overseas or joining other A-League clubs.
The reason I always worried was that it meant off the bat you had to find 40-odd players due to the new teams coming in, and that is before considering players moving overseas or being released because they aren’t up to it. I thought that this would mean a lot of ‘ordinary’ players will be featuring and thus bring the quality of the league down and drive away fans when we are trying to attract them. And you’re right – stealing fans from existing clubs still will only transfer the issue of findng new fans from one club to another.
Thankfully we were able to get the youth league up and running first, which has so far provided us with some real finds and hopefully it will continue to do so. Perhaps Wellington will finally get a youth team this season, and I expect that the Gold Coast and the Fury will have them as well.
I just hope that my fears are misplaced and that the league improves this season. So far the signs for some clubs – like Perth and Sydney – are good, while for others – Adelaide United, Central Coast and Brisbane – perhaps there is cause for concern.
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
a lot of hope is placed on the NYL. hopefully it will be able to provide us with a constant stream of adequate to great players able to fill up some of the rosters. so long as clubs maintain a cash flow there’s always the opportunities, as many spruik, of recruiting from Asia and Africa for skillful bargains.
There are also the AIS and state schools, no?
on the aspect of some players havig a second go – it’s not necessarily a black and white issue either. there is a positive argument that whereas some players could not “cut it” there are others maybe that just need a different teamor coach/ approach/ get over injury. There are plenty of cases of players not making it in one team but flourishing in another.
Kazama said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
whiskeymac, yeah, there’s no big issue for me with some players getting a second chance even though my post doesn’t read like that. I guess what I meant to say was that relying on too many of them to come good is the risk.
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
“Yet with some Australian football fans still to be won over by the local game, it’s imperative that standards continue to rise.”
that also means paychecks. even in these economic times footballers dont want pay-cuts (insert NCJU here) that want rises + bonus’s. Discussed not too long ago on SBS was the several marquee postions. Australian marquee, Socceroo marquee,international marquee youth and asian marquee.i would also like to see the option of an Oceania Marquee. This would give clubs more flexibility.Club owners like Palmer should be allowed to stretch their wallets to grab the best talent available. Visions of winning the league, the afc and the club world cup is only possible with the right recruitment and that means cash.
I still believe Australian coaches are not good enough. they need more experience not as players but coaching experience with other system in other countries. Will be interesting what Lavicka does with Sydney.
Our current competition allows a level playing field, good or bad. i say bad, i want to see a break away club, a club all aspire to beat. A talking point across the league. the Man U, Chealsea, Celtics/ Rangers,Barcelona /Madrid, Urawa Reds/ Gamba Osaka.
Who is Australias elite Football Club/s? Sydney thought they were, but the cap quickly sorted that out.
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Mike
Another good article.. the AFL playing in China and as you said ……”The Federal Minister for Trade Simon Crean was in Shanghai last week, proclaiming his delight at the AFL’s plan to stage a one-off exhibition match in the city next year”"”"
I think it is good the AFL go to China… and try and expand there game but the more important point is the growing understanding that Asians are increasingly playing sport , further that business and off the record talks can be held at sporting events…
But your point about technical improvement is without doubt the key to the leagues growth… HOWEVER there is another important aspect to this… the general reporting of the technical play… I watched Les & Fozza discuss the Chelsea and Bacca match (the first one that was drawn). Fozza in particular and Les also .. but they discussed the lack of technical skill of Chelsea and questioned Guss to some degree… Now if one of the top 10 teams in the world playing under arguably one of the best coaches of his time in an away match, cannot play well enough to be praised then at what point could our fledgling little A-League get praise… SOOOOoooo I think some in the media need to become less negative, less aggressive, and help rather than saying they want it all now… because they should realise everyone is working on it and have been even before they began their crusade.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Mike,
“The Federal Minister for Trade Simon Crean was in Shanghai last week, proclaiming his delight at the AFL’s plan to stage a one-off exhibition match in the city next year. But if the Australian Government wants to improve trading ties within the region, they’re better off spruiking the A-League.”
It’s an AFL conspiracy to hurt the A League and FFA attempts at engaging with Asia. They have no right to move the game into any international sphere, that is world football’s right isn’t it?
The fact remains that the much lauded ACL experiment is in a little disarray with fans and clubs – there is little money in it for the clubs. Clubs like AU who were on the verge of being canonised by many futbol fans have been left a shredded carcass by infighting and poor management, again.
Maybe the AFL has showed it has a very smart, pro-active management team, the Federal Government clearly agrees. It’s not as though Australian football or Australian futbol can’t represent Australia as you jealously report.
Redb
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Cpaaa the danger for clubs getting beyond themselves can be seen in Leeds. How much debt are the vast majority of those clubs you mentioned in? Arsenal present the future for a clubs dynamics, not Chelseki. Manchester used to be a goodmodel until Glazier debt.
Maybe in time there will be some sort of Darwinistic evolution in the HAl where big clubs like Melbourne, Sydney and maybe Gold Coast grow above their peers. but the downside would be the age old argument that this would harm the league outside of those clubs – why support a team that will never win? Where the HAL is so young such a superficial approach to supporting a team must be a real consideration.
True Tah said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Midfielder
re: the whole sport and business, I can recall Clive Palmer addressing the issue, that people often asked him if the reason why he was investing in GCU was to help his business. His response is that no, in fact, it is his business helping futbol (in this case GCU).
There is somewhat similar to England, where there has been private ownership of clubs for sometime – basically it was usually a case of a local wealthy businessman wanting to put something back into the community (in this case the futbol club) as opposed to a lucrative business opportunity.
Re: the whole salary cap, in a few years I suspect it will become extinct in the HAL, but not until all clubs have sound support bases, the fact that the Roar and Adelaide may not have this is a strong argument for the cap to retained for the time being. It will stop the likes of Sydney/Melbourne/Gold Coast from becoming the Celtic/Rangers/ManU/Barcelona/Madrid of Australian/Asian futbol, but at this stage, the FFA’s focus is on the strength of the comp as a whole and not the individual clubs.
Tifosi said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:38am | Report comment
midfielder,
The criticism of chelsea was more about the style of play rather than its ability to play.
Chelsea were brilliant at playing “catenaccio”. The problem was that it wasn’t pretty to watch.
I didnt see a lack of technical skill by Chelsea when they thumped Arsenal last weekend.
Onto the article:
Yes the standard of the A-league has to raise. It will happen but will take time.
# The new junior development program will help
# The National Youth League will help
# But the main way to help is to get better coaches here , to teach our local coaches.
Jade North said something interesting the other day, when he mentioned that training in the K-league was of a higher standard than A-league games.
Just goes to show how far we still have to go.
As for China, its a huge market to tap into. Problem for the AFL is that the NFL wants a piece of the action also. No prizes for guessing who has the resources to make bigger inroads.
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Redb
What did Mike say wrong … where did he say the AFL should not go to China or put down the AFL in anyway or miss quote Simon Crean
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Mid,
“But if the Australian Government wants to improve trading ties within the region, they’re better off spruiking the A-League.”
Redb
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Tifosi
So every match must be like what .. I actually do not believe Les & Fozza can discuss anything these days without the style and technical thing playing a big part… there is more to the game and match analysis and I repeat if a coach playing for a draw in an away match in front of a large hostile crowd is a poor game … then tell me when the A-League will ever reach and acceptable standard.
Agree all your points but it will take years and we will see the benefits of this in ten years … but wishing it was Christmas tomorrow will not make it so .. the current crop of players come out of the coaching that they went through it will improve each year but there is a need for balanced reporting on it.
Tifosi said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Well using sport to promote business or trade is in no way effective unless both countries are mutually in love with the game (ie cricket with india and australia). Football might have a better chance than the AFL but by no means is it any way to promote trade.
China do not care about Australia’s sporting landscape, they just want our resources.
But this is what Demetriou had to say
“I believe the Australian Government should be keen to promote and support the exhibition game due to the game being a truly indigenous one, which has led the way in Australia for cultural diversity with inclusion for all groups.”
Maybe so but what does this have to do with trade in china? Nothing. Seems the AFL wants the Federal government to bankroll this loss-making exercise.
This is what Simon Crean said, spoken by a true victorian
“Look at all the people. Anyone who watches a game of Aussie Rules football falls in love with it,” he said. “This will be an expo that has 70 million people. If we can show the game played on their soil with their audience I think it would take off.”
Yeah just like how the AFL exploded in popularity in the USA, England and Dubai after exhibition games in those countries.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Tifosi,
Sarcasm the lowest form of wit. A very tired old comment that one, would like me to trot out some old bigotry towards soccah?
The main thing point is the belief by futbol fans clearly demonstrated by Mike Tuckerman’s comments that no other sport has the right to go to the Federal Government and get funding for an international trade opportuntity.
The Melbourne footy club is also forging links in China and there is an attempt to get grass roots development going, something misisng from previous exhibition games.
The bottom line is that if no trade opportunities were present with Dubai or China it wouldn’t happen. Australian Rules football does represent a cultural angle that no other sport can, it has a point of difference. That doesn’t mean better though but certainly not worse.
I’m sure the Japanese wouldn’t always trot out their baseball team to represent their culture.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Tifosi
Redb has a valid point, I have always encouraged the AFL to expand off shore. IMO it is a smarter decision than the NSW & QLD expansion.. well maybe do both … but the 200 million investment in NSW &QLD put a good bit of that overseas .. like the Indians are doing with 20 20 in China.
However two points ..First Redb I don’t think the article had a go at AFL we will see this differently … second if you read Simon Cream comments he must hold a swinging seat as it was all a tad over the top.
But what I will be interested in to gauge the media challenge football has in Melbourne is the media this game will get compared to the Socceroos when they played in China and I think the match was in the top 10 or all time China TV shows.. (
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Tifosi -
hmm, and how Rugby League exploded into Melbourne after the first SoO game at the MCG in the mid 90s that drew 85K.
Playing a single exhibition game doth not a code establish at grass roots. That’s not how it works.
What a ill concieved comment this was Yeah just like how the AFL exploded in popularity in the USA, England and Dubai after exhibition games in those countries.
Keep it real, homies!!
btw – the question then is WHY play one off ‘exhibition’ matches or fairly meaningless friendlies? Usually what happens on the field prooves to be a diversion. It’s more an excuse to ‘host’.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Midfielder -
note that Simon Crean is a former North Melbourne FC number 1 ticket holder – - so, he IS AFL friendly.
Also, that last year, the trade department recognised Australian Football as an export product – - the question at the time was “What does this mean??”
Perhaps we’re about to find out?
Tifosi said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
red b
Mike, said that if the australian government wants to engage in trade with china on a sporting basis, then football is better positioned than AFL.
If one believes sport makes a impact(I don’t) this is correct. Mike doesn’t once say the AFL shouldn’t go there. You are implying he says that.
And im not the one who said “If we can show the game played on their soil with their audience I think it would take off.”
Simon Crean statement was too easy not to take a jab at. I remember many AFL folk saying the same about usa and england back in the day.
By all means take pot shots at sokkah if you like, im a football fan and even i do as i’m a realist. In particular when people think the A-league will one day be bigger than the AFL, which it clearly wont.
AFL fans and football fans are both similar. AFL fans believe their sport will take off overseas(which it wont) and football fans think Football will become the biggest game in Australia( Which it wont)
DS said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Redb
The fact is that AFL has the global scale and profile of a squashed insect on the windscreen and games overseas are just curiosities. I liked the joke about about “grass roots development” in China. You do fine line in absurdist humour.
Tuckerman is correct. There is no commercial sense in promoting AFL overseas. To quote Paul Kelly, AFL doesn’t have a chance of a cinder in snow. As for cultural promotion- well, I think we could also to NRL group sex. Be as relevant, and a lot more comprehensible.
The money would be much better spent elsewhere.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Tifosi,
Have a crack at this if you like re the Federal Gov’t funding of the redevelopment at Carrera on the Gold Coast:
“Federal Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese. Mr Albanese is a former South Sydney NRL board member, but admitted he had been well and truly won over by the AFL.
“I say this as an unashamed rugby league fan but also as an AFL fan, the AFL’s administration is without doubt leading the way and is ahead of the game,” he said.
“Data provided by the AFL shows, over a 10-year period, this project will deliver 2239 full-time jobs and generate $415 million of economic activity.”
(source: Gold Coast Bulletin)
————
you were saying about Victorians and AFL fans in the Fed Govt!
Of course other fans of football codes will scorn the AFL’s attempt to expand the game, you maybe surprised at the improvement in game development, evident in the past 5 years. Of course its not going to become the biggest thing since slice bread, but free of the typical Sydney bigotry you displayed with your comments about Crean, it wil only take a few major cities in China to show some interest and get comps going to be considered a success.
and Mike didn’t say ‘football’ was better positioned he said the A League was preferable to AFL.
Redb
DS said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Redb
Anthony Albanese is simply a politician. He will say what it takes to get the votes. I suggest you look at some recent AFL attendances on the Gold Coast. You will find them sobering reading.
I eagerly look forward to future clashes between Beijing and St Kilda, and to the AFL world cup.
I am not from Sydney. This is not Sydney bigotry. Its called realism.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Okay – seemingly I’ve got to review my rebuking of Mike T for going the code vs code from the very first line of his article……or……..is that fine, but I’m not allowed to comment on it?
I tried to put forward an argument along these lines.
A. Tianjin has 22 sister cities.
B. Melb established this status relationship back in 1980.
Mike talks of MVFC playing the Mayors Cup, well, that ADDS to the 30 year running sister city relationship (okay, Majoyr John So helped arrange this back in 2005). So, don’t go giving the impression that MVFC is ‘forging’ relationships here – - it’s simply ADDING to existing relationships.
btw – I still don’t see why Mike T has begun his article with this little sub article that sends respondants off down 2 quite distint paths.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
DS,
Simon Crean is simply a politician as well – don’t avoid a valid comparison.
Just over 10,000 for the latest AFL game at the Gold Coast, stacks up against many A League attendances. in the year Notth Melb shunned the Gold Coast, attendence dropped sharpy for their games, prior games attracted 10,000 plus.
your comments are not realism they’re mostly just uninformed.
Redb
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Oh and DS, Albanese is a politician representing western Sydney.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
MC
Re SC … and for yourself as well … did you here that police caught North Melbourne supporters climbing over the stadium wall … told em to get back in and watch..
Mackey said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Hey, Simon Crean, i’ve been to an AFL game, did not fall in love with it. Saw some decent biffs in the crowd but. (Don’t pick on ladies from Adelaide)
Your pal,
Mackey, football supporter, Brisbane.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Mid,
Some levity.
Redb
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
just on the salary cap thingy…
when FFA took a season off to reconstruct Frank Lowy didnt want a salary cap. it was advised by John Oneil that clubs would go broke if it were allowed to happen. Lowy quickly agreed. i agree with towser that the cap will dissolve over time to allow football to evolve at home and abroad. but at this stage the league is still in its infancy and has to be monitored, even if my views came off suggesting no cap. thats why i think more marquee places over time will also improve the standard of HAL bringing more people through gates . a second division will also help clubs bounce back instead of disappearing into the states or no where at all.
on the afl thingy, very touchy. but i think what AFL folk fail to realize is that football is an international sport, a commonly used name “football” (with no reference to any country of origin)and a common understanding of rules but also used as a political tool. AFL is simply an Australian sport….enjoy it.
this is the last thing i say on AFL for it really is a good article. its a shame that one cannot read Mikes little reference to AFL with open mindedness and instead use it to create a whole new debate!
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Cpaa,
It’s actually a shame that Mike couldn’t avoid his bias for futbol by suggesting the Fed Govt not back the AFL’s game in China and instead support the A League with one. He would not get AFL fans noses out of joint on a forum read by all sports fans.
Would have been more appropriate is to suggest that say like the AFL and Fed Govt are partnering for trade opportunties the A League should seek to do the same.
and err thanks for clearing it up that futbol is an international game.
Redb
p.s. the AFL is just following FFA’s smart lead into engaging Asia.
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:44am | Report comment
“and err thanks for clearing it up that futbol is an international game.”
here is another one you might find hard to believe. Aussie Rules is not!
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
RedB no harm intended, but its precisely Mikes point!
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
funny how these threads always disintegrate into code slag offs. my two cents worth – i remember Cartlon or some other team playing exhibition matches in london in the 90s – there was a cultural value attached to it that should not be so readily dismissed by others. That’s not to say its going to take off in those countries, but as something unique and promoting Oz then why not? Does the chinese government throw money into promoting Kung Fu and other cultural events – most likely. will they expect the world to take up Kung Fu? No but it’s a part of their culture as the AFL is for a significant part of this country but there are opportunities at every sort of international interaction to promote business and strengthen ties
in saying that from a sports perspective: The HAL and football generally is much more likely to establish a swap over of players, teams playing each other and provide meaningful sporting contests though (would the NBL?). I would not say it was necessarily a cultural thing having Shanghai playing SFC.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Good comments Whiskeymac.
Redb
Tifosi said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Red B
You can only engage with asia if you have something in common.
Besides like i said before the biggest obstacle facing expansion into say china is that the NFL wants to do the same.
AFL have no chance against the NFL. If they want to take on a market, they have the resources to make it happen. Look at how successful the NFL games have been in london. They might even give them a superbowl one day.
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:57am | Report comment
i dont think Mikes being bias, just stating what makes more sense. AFL game in China, cool, if there was a Chinese team to play,?… but there isnt. so i cant see why the comments have got you in aspin?
so how do you see the coming A-League season, im looking foward to the Celtics and i will be in Sydney if Barcelona are coming, How about you?
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Midfielder -
for rounds 2 to 6 inclusive – - you’d be right.
However, last week……..totally different story……..
one of my kids declared “I’m going to smile forever”……much different to trying to explain after the draw last year against the Swannees that no one had won so no song was going to be played (he loves the club songs…..gawd, he even jumps on the computer and makes me find club songs from the SANFL, WAFL, VFL etc………………………………….help me!
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Cpaa re: next season…. mariners to sign Michael Owen. i think micky wants to show God up and having been sidelined at
Newcastle has decided to take his prowess to gosford where no doubt he will be appreciated more. That’s if we can’t get Tevez of course.
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
sorry, how rude. I downgraded your rating an “a”… my apologies Cpaaa.
Millster said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
I think the main difference in these things is that in football’s case there will be a contest between teams from the two nations which will be conducted in front of an audience from the two nations (both live and on TV) due to the game being a ‘common’ one around the world. A real situation symbolising exchange which is valuable for broader social and economic linkage can quickly occur. The game is also more likely to get broader acknowledgement via TV and print news stories etc for these reasons.
With AFL (and with no disrespect – again I don’t hate the game or anything like that) the game is likely to be played between two Aussie clubs flown in, and in front of a 95%+ Aussie expat crowd. It is not a situation of exchange, of sharing, etc in fact it is a totally foreign situation in which the host country’s participation could only possibly ever be a minor ‘fringe’ factor.
To me the basis of selecting AFL as a sporting exhibition to improve trade is about the same as selecting an Aboriginal dialect to conduct the subsequent trade negotiations in. Uniquely Australian yes. But also totally useless compared to the linkage and understanding you would get if you used a sensible common language … like say English or Mandarin. Why would we ever support the making of such a basic mistake? (In fact us doing such a think in the first place would make me pretty worried about the judgements being made).
So I’m not biased against AFL but I agree 100% with Mike. The government is one thing above all others, and that is custodian of our tax money. And to me they are wasting it in supporting an AFL game in China. It would take many many games of AFL to have the same commercial and social effect as one game of football. And even trying to do such a thing sends – in my judgement – less than positive impressions about the ways in which we try to reach out to the world.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Whiskeymac -
a bit like people going to see the WInds of Shaolin,……should they not bother because it’s not going to lead to grass roots take up of Chinese Martial Arts? (or, might it?)
sometimes it’s good to ‘tour’ overseas something that is culturally unique to your country.
I’m afraid the Socceroos aren’t. Soccer isn’t. In general, ‘football’ isn’t. But, Australian football is, and in reality, is more distinct than for example Grid Iron from the Rugby codes other than the helmets.
ANd given that this discussion centres around a proposed (very early stages) exhibition game as part of the Australian pavillion at the 2010 World Expo in Shanghai - – then, we ain’t talking JUST China here either. Australian Football HAS been making cute headway in a good number of significant countries so, for the AFL and Australian profile associated to this – it’s quite important to be ’seen’.
Slippery Jim said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Midfielder, on your comment about Murray and Foster attacking Chelsea’s so-called lack of techique, and the way Hiddink had them playing, less than four weeks ago Murray (always one to favour emotive phrasing) described Chelsea using such flowery phrases as “truly heroic” “historic” “theatre” “bravado” “real heroes” and even “noble”, and Hiddink’s way of Coaching chelsea as his “capacity to liberate their attacking instincts”. A few weeks later they are boring anti-football cowards or some such drivel. 30 years in what he dscribes himself as ‘the business’ and he still can’t be fair and consistent in his opinions.
I think it fair to say that he is neither restrained or neutral in his opinions, and Foster is even worse. Anyone could watch the highly technical strike of Essien, a volley from his wrong foot, straight into the top left hand corner of the goal, and say Chelsea lack technical ability either does not know football, or is biased beyond belief and tailoring their so-called ‘analysis’ to only what they want people to believe. An example is Foster saying that Abidal should not have been red-carded, when he admitted himself after the game, in an interview :“If I let Nico [Nicolas Anelka] run towards goal then he scores the second one and it is over, so we can say it is a good foul. I sacrificed myself”. No wonder UEFA did not rescind the red card!
To be honest, and it is becoming increasingly aggravating for people who want decent coverage of football, it is hard to find someone who covers football that is not rabidly biased and on some sort of personal crusade of some sort, Foster, Murray, Hill, Fink, etc are all the same. Perhaps only Michale Cockerill and Mark Bosnich come to mind as fair and honest in their football analysis.
Cpaaa said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
whiskeym no apologies needed, michael owen at ccm i like the sounds of it. maybe they can convince the duke to come with him, all under the salary cap..love it.
Lazza said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
I saw a very detailed and comprehensive story about the AFL’s expansion plans on the 24 Hour Sports News Channel on Foxtel. Since they have so much time to fill they can give stories like this a bit of in-depth analysis. The AFL does not seriously believe there is any market overseas to expand the game and form new leagues and are not going to commit any money to do so.
Their strategy is simple, they want to improve the overseas Pay TV ratings for AFL so it can command a higher price. At the moment it is virtually given away to these overseas broadcasters who need to fill up their schedules with sports programming. Exhibition games are part of this strategy, the hope being that these games may stimulate interest in the game and improve ratings. There is no ‘push’ to expand the game internationally and there are very few oval shaped stadiums where you could play the game. Seems like a prudent and ‘realistic’ strategy to me.
Slippery Jim said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
By the way, this is a good article, I agree with all the main points Mike has made. The quality of the A-League needs to improve. I’m not sure last season was an improvement on the one before, actually.
Millster said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Lazza – first para is prudent and realistic yes. But in terms of what you describe in your second para I think its a waste of time and resources on their part. Then again, its their call not mine…
Towser said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
whiskeymac said
funny how these threads always disintegrate into code slag offs
Redb agreed
Lets just analyse why & essentially you the author Mike Tuckerman are to blame by inserting a mention of Simon Crean/AFL in China when in fact the heading is “A-League expansion must also improve quality”.
As a football fan I was attracted by the heading,hoping to add something constructive to the debate about A-League quality.
As it stands its impossible because the Simon Crean bit clouds the issue. To me Mike this sentence makes no sense in relation to the rest of the article. On one hand you have set up a debate about the validity of AFL vs Football as a tool to iimproving trading ties in China on the other somehow “A-League expansion must also improve quality”.
Two debates in one. No wonder these type of articles wander off the track,particularly when your offering several tracks to take to further confuse the issue.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Okay, I’ve doubled up a fraction because a comment with link was taking yonks to get thru,
apologies therefore if the doubling up is of concern to anyone.
btw – on topic of the HAL and quality and quantity arguments – interesting the MVFC has somehow found 500 large given that they might have turned a loss this year, but, have signed up Hernandez for 3 years. This may simply be wealthy owners underwriting the trade, or making interest free loans or whatever. Probably money well spent – - – and 3 years, compares favourably surely compared to sporting pension age Robbie Fowler??
jimbo said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
The expansion of the A-League and the migration of our best players overseas goes against everyone’s efforts to improve the quality, whereas the new teams and new rivalries and the younger players doing well increases the interest in the sport and the A-League.
So improving the quality is important but not the only way for the A-League to continue to grow.
Developing a community spirit, a sense of loyalty and an acceptance of your team, no matter how well they do is also important. No matter how much you improve the quality of the A-League there will still be a large number of football fans who don’t go to an A-League game because its not as good as the EPL.
I think John O’Neill is right and the A-League should temper its expansion plans a little and stick with 12 teams max for a while and maybe even defer going to 12 for a year or two, not just on the quality issue, but on the current economics of it all – although Adelaide did make a profit last season, but not enough to keep Bianco there.
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
another issue being it might even be a bit hard to stand out. in football terms the downside to the world game being we arent really seen, at HAL level, to be in the same league as a Euro or South Amercian team. Realistically where is the draw card for foriegn locals to flock and watch the Roar or Glory or whoever. If the crowds are low in the ACL why would an exhibition match draw any more? exhibition matches need to offer something. the socceroos cld do it with their european stars etc. Maybe AFL is seen as something “exotic”. If the aim is to generate business you would only be targeting the business men anyway i guess. a slice of Australia in China.
i guess the point being why go to another game they see as opposed to go and see something new and unusual? Its why people here want to see Barcelona or Celtic. Would the crowds turn up for Chonburi?
Lazza, good point re:oval shaped pitches and iteresting re:overseas ratings/ packages for rights. This still constitutes “trade and commerce”.
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Towser, you gotta admit that, as away to get comments posted, any mention of comparing the codes, favouritism etc is likely to be a winner.
Jimbo – i agree with the developing communities theme, but when we were 8 teams the consensus appeared that it got a little ho-hum as a spectacle after 4 seasons… do you think there’s a worry that the same conclusion will occur with 10 teams or 12?
Towser said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Whiskeymac
For you & others maybe,not for me. Cheapens the article in my book & I cant take it seriously.
Lazza said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
I don’t really believe that the AFL’s strategy is going to work but it’s prudent because it won’t cost too much money and realistic because it’s the best you could hope for. Good luck for trying.
The A-League should improve in the next few years with “World’s Best Practice” coaching for our youngsters and a better TV deal. I love it anyway, there are 90 Pro Football leagues in the World and the A-League may not be the best but it ain’t the worst either. I’ve been a diehard Man Utd fan since the early 1970’s but these days the only Football teams that I’m really passionate about are the Socceroos and Adel Utd? The 12 team format should be consolidated for a few years and we’ll have a very exciting league with our own teams and rivalries.
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
JS
Agree completely your comment about the media … one hopes they could same to themselves.. How about this then.
SBS CAN NOT BE ACCEPTED AS A MEDIA OUTLET AS THE COVERAGE IS NOT UP TO THE BBC STANDARD AND UNTIL SBS CAN REACH THE STANDARD OF THE BBC IT IS A LEAGUE THAT WILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING PEOPLE TOP WATCH. FURTHER EVEN THE LONDON TIMES AND WALL STREET JOURNAL ALTHROUGH LESSOR LEAGUES SHOW HOW TO USE THESE SKILLS SADLY LACKING IN THE LOCAL PRODUCT..BUT THEY INSIST IN BECOMING LIKE THE SUN IN ENGLAND AND CONTINUE TO PLAY THAT AUSTRALIA MEDIA GAME OF TABLOID JOURNALISM ALWAYS GOING FOR THE OBOVIOUS WEAK SPOT ALWAYS OVERSTATED AND THE LONG SHOTS THEY TAKE WITH LITTLE TECDHNICAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO JOURNALIST WORK.. AHH BUT LOOK AT THE MANAGERS LACKING IN TRAINING IN DECENT LEAGUES… THE MANAGERS JUST KEEP USING THOSE OLD ENGLISH HACK OF GRAB SOMETHING AND RUN WITH IT.. IT IS ABOUT TIME THEY THE ENGLISH LEFT FLEET STREET MANAGERS AND LEARNED HOW TO KNOW THEIR CRAFT IN A MORE STYLISH MANNER USING GOOD TECHNICAL SKILLS.
Stop me please but hopefully my message is coming across if they ever bother to read it.
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
towser, i was talking numbers not preferences. i note on the other blog you mentioned Chonburi players being signed by MV. this with Hernandez being transferred for 500K i think represents a fairly decent change in the player situations. I know we have had Asain players already (Song at NJ and a few others) but these transfers seem to suggest, especially with H’s significant fee’s, the HAL is coming of age (cm by cm as some would say)
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
re AFL in China -
In February 2006, a joint project between the AFL, Melbourne Football Club, Melbourne City Council and AusAID to post an Australian Youth Ambassador in Tianjin, a city of 10 million, about 120 km southeast of Beijing in an effort to kickstart Australian Football in China was announced. The Tianjin program is sponsored by the Melbourne Football Club and the Melbourne City Council (through links formed with John So during the Australian Football Multicultural Cup). These organisations have since held exchange programs.
The first national representative team composed entirely of Chinese nationals appeared as the China Red Demons at the 2008 Australian Football International Cup. The main university teams continue to be Tianjin Normal University and Beijing Sports University who made up the majority of the China Red Demons squad of 30 that came to Australia. A number of whom have since graduated and ‘moved on’ from Uni.
While there were less than 70 senior participants and only 1 junior team in 2007, the AFL reported a total of 9,000 junior participants in Auskick styled programs with multiple sessions, through programs in Tianjin and Suzhou, where 18 schools have introduced the sport into their cirriculum.
Reality for now – Universities are certainly the opportunity for footy in China, university students have more free time, they are open to new ideas, they can compete in matches against adults and expats and they have access to uni facilities (quoted from AFL China’s Andrew Sawitsch off WFN).
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Mid,
I’m deaf now
Redb
whiskeymac said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Lazza i agree totally with this “we’ll have a very exciting league with our own teams and rivalries” – the reason i got foxtel wasnt for Arsenal but the HAL… and if fox loses it then i will be dumping them quick smart.
Midfielder said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
MC
Having identified the target market will the AFL invest the coin needed to turn a small begining into what I am not sure but something much greater than if no coin is spent ..please no answer it must grow and take off in a normal way … its needs seed funding over some time to make it work..
jimbo said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
Whiskymac,
No denying the drop in attendances at games last season, but everything else about football went up, including TV ratings, so people are still interested in watching the A-League – its a complex and very good question about whether people get bored with the same old teams or do the same old teams help ingrain the rivalries and loyalties.
Expansion with the added interest and new players from overseas will help.
The youth League will be a big winner too, especially while the FFA is cashed up and gives it its support.
The global financial crisis didn’t help either and all major codes, including AFL, are experiencing a fall in attendances and sponsorship revenues.
I support Australian football as much as Sydney FC [and might even jump ship if Lucas Neill comes to play for West Sydney] so I have a loyalty to the game as well as the team.
Even if the Socceroos were last in their group and had no chance of qualifying we’d still go and see them play Bahrain and Japan and I’ll go to as many SFC games as I can. I’m expecting them to do better with the new manager.
I think football as a game and the Socceroos as a national sporting team are well established and entrenched in the Australian culture. The A-League still has a way to go to establish itself as a profitable professional competition, although some of the A-League clubs as well as the FFA are making a profit.
I don’t think in its 27 year history, any of the old NSL clubs or Soccer Australia ever made a profit.
The AFL are very good at organising overseas exhibition games and getting the Federal Govt to foot most of the bill under the guise of a trade mission. Which lucky politicians will get an overseas all expenses paid trip this time?
Like Dubai and South Africa, most of the crowd will be expats and I doubt if any new trade deals will be struck.
I was in China recently and the roar about the upcoming AFL exhibition game was deafening.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
that’s the big question on a few ‘national frontiers’, both where the AFL has had some involvement or none at all, or just a single club acting alone.
The AFL certainly can’t do it alone. That’s for sure. Working with partners is critical, and that’s been a key in South Africa for example – working with business partners. It DOES allow a business to be seen to be putting back into communities and bringing them something different rather than ‘just’ pumping money into already existing sports ‘organisations’ that may or may not be riddled with corruption. (i.e. if you trotted into Zimbabwe, would you just donate $500K to the govt for a sports program, or, would you directly run clinics in the schools……just as an example).
There is a definite need for the Fed Govt to at least be supportive. What that translates to in dollar terms????
An example in China is that in one location there’s a new set of parallel soccer pitches that can be hired out together to allow full 18 a side Aust Footy matches. Part of the key is to be able to identify and gain access to such venues cost effectively, and as required. Otherwise, all you get is 9 a side variants on soccer pitches. I gather over there, it’s most common to have a soccer pitch with a running track around it. (if it were grass it wouldn’t be that big a deal!!).
So, a bit of Govt supported good will and positive support from the embassy to facilitate such local interaction. At very least to NOT have Rugby died hard GOvt officials effectively undermine efforts.
It’s one thing to have the game in some respect in 18 schools – but, without an oval or two to play on, then, it’s largely just window dressing.
Having the couple of Universities and looking to a few more can hopefully see in China – like Japan – that 20 years on they’ll be holding black tie gala evenings for the league presentation night too.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
you can’t blame the AFL for being able to manage our game better than FFA. That just sounds like sour grapes to me, you and Mike Tuckerman should get together for a nice soothing cup fo tea.
6,000 people to the Dubai game shows it had some interest with expats and the significance of trade opportunties for Australian companies.
Your last comment was hilarious, heres a serious question for you, have you always wanted to be nightclub comic?
Redb
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Jimbo -
The AFL are very good at organising overseas exhibition games and getting the Federal Govt to foot most of the bill under the guise of a trade mission. Which lucky politicians will get an overseas all expenses paid trip this time?
Care to elaborate? Have you got some solid evidence?
actually the Howard Govt wasn’t nearly as receptive to the AFL – - they were at war remember, especially over zero tolerance/WADA and ’soft on drugs’ rhetoric.
The Dubai game was more funded by commercial sponsorship – especially Emirates Airlines (Collingwood sponsor) and Toyota (AFL and Adelaide).
The cancelled Sth Africa match earlier this year was due to NAB, the major sponsor of it, deciding the value proposition was not there in the global financial crisis.
The AFL would LOVE to be getting some coin from Canberra for such activities…….perhaps we’ll see some in the future. Would that be so evil??
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
As a general comment many fans of other codes criticise/ridicule the AFL for being only an Australian sport yet when the AFL tries to take the game onto the international stage it is criticised/ridiculed.
Redb
Pippinu said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
I have to agree with Towser that there is a bit of a disconnect between the title of the article and all this trade mission talk.
I think it goes without saying that the FFA should explore such opportunites with AUSTRADE and other similar instrumentalities, using sport as a means of improving business ties, etc.
I can recall reading about a year ago that Freo had picked up significant sponsorship from a South African mining company to visit some provinces in South Africa and promote their equivalent of the Auskick program, and all I can say is good on them for achieving that.
But it did beggar the question – where’s the FFA in all this? Why haven’t they established ties with a few African countries? If an AFL club can do it, almost without even trying too hard – then surely the FFA can do even better?
If A-League supporters have a beef in this respect – it has nothing to do with the AFL and everything to do with the FFA.
The AFL might be nothing more than a pimple on the world’s bum, but there ain’t no use getting stuck in to the AFL if they are out there cutting deals with mulitnationals and the like.
Lazza said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Redb,
I don’t criticise the AFL for being only an Australian sport. I criticise it for NOT being a true national Australian sport. If it had the foresight and, as Ron Barassi pointed out, started it’s expansion phase in the 1930’s not the 1990’s it may have become our national sport?
It would of been nice to have one local sport that we were all interested in? I don’t get too worked up about it’s expansion overseas. To me it’s charm is that it is a local sport and a nice part of my sporting diet. The Crows during the Winter and Adelaide United during the Summer.
Forgetmenot said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
The difference between promoting football, and soccer in Asia is the following. Soccer will enable Australia to forge links with other businesses. However growing football in china enables links to be grown that will be centralised on Australia.
It is in the long term interests of Australia, Australians, the Australian government and Australian businesses to grow football overseas. It is in the short term interest to increase links with soccer.
Which means that both should be occuring, but football should be given a bit more help by the government due to its significant disadvantage in this regard.
Rhys said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
RedB
“The fact remains that the much lauded ACL experiment is in a little disarray with fans and clubs – there is little money in it for the clubs.”
Have you seen the figures for this years competition?
The budget for the tournament has increased from US $4 million in 2008 to US $20 million in 2009, with the total prize pool now equalling US $14 million. The winner receives US $1.5 million in prize money plus additional winnings collected from the earlier rounds.[3][4] Clubs receive a travel subsidy for each away match. Thus, for each round of 16 tie, only one club receives a travel subsidy.
Group stages
* Win: $40,000
* Draw: $20,000
* Loss: $0
* Travel subsidy: $30,000 x 3
Round of 16
* Participation: $50,000
* Travel subsidy: $40,000
Quarter-finals
* Participation: $80,000
* Travel subsidy: $50,000
Semi-finals
* Participation: $120,000
* Travel subsidy: $60,000
Final
* Champions: $1.5 million
* Runners-up: $750,000
* Travel subsidy: $60,000
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Lazza,
You only have to look at the lack of expansion by rugby union and league into the southern states to see that it is different country in terms of football code ‘yards’. Go one step further and add Australi’a’ geographical isolation and small population and thus influence in the world to understand it is where it is. That can and is changing on a small scale.
Redb
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Ryhs,
What is happening with the Newcastle Jets? What has happened to Adelaide United? This is an observation that the ACL is not the futbol rainbow for A League clubs it has been lauded as.
I still think it is a good and interesting concept but boy it has some issues.
Until Australian clubs can compete without a salary cap it is very unlikely that Hal clubs will be in the winners circle for some time. In the meantime it interferes with their domestic campaigns and is a travel, logistics and scheduling nightmare.
Redb
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Lazza -
don’t forget – in 1908 we had the Australasian Footy carnival (the 50 year jubilee), New Zealand defeated NSW and QLD – - -alas, a sign that Victoria and Melbourne, due to isolation, was starting to lose it’s tenous grip on Australia north of Wagga (i.e. outside of the sphere of influence of Melbourne and Adelaide).
We than had 2 world wars and a depression.
Along the way, people toyed with the Australeague or whatever merged variant code – - -probably thought it too dangerous because if it fell over it might just ruin Aust Footy and Rugby League in this country and leave us with just soccer and Union.
It’s easier retrospectively to suggest that expansion should’ve been on the cards back then – but, the capacity to support it was not as it is today. The capacity now to support from afar, have someone google from the USA for instance, find a contact for the AFL and request a copy of the rules, and to instantaneously fire an email to the other side of the world with the rules of the game as an attachment, or the rules of 9 aside variants as played in Dubai, or Bali or the Euro Championships for example – - – a bit easier than sending a letter to who knows who and where to request a hard copy of the rules be sent to the other side of the world most likely by surface mail (sea).
Nothing happened (or didn’t happen for a reason) in a vacuum.
jimbo said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Redb,
the kettle is black
I’m not criticising AFL the game nor the fact that it is uniquely Australian. I often compliment AFL, but these overseas trips are more of a junket than anything else and the politicians are more than happy to join in. Simon Crean is a North Melbourne supporter and won’t mind the trip at all.
AFL is unheard of in China and good luck to the AFL. After Table Tennis, Football and Basketball are the biggest sports. Mike is absolutely correct in saying that a lot more Chinese politicians and businessmen would turn up to a football game in the name of Australian Trade than an AFL game and as such is a waste of taxpayer’s money.
And the AFL lobby are very good at getting governments to spend money on AFL, without spending money on AFL – “not one cent” I think is Pip’s favourite phrase – which gives me a good laugh every time he tells it.
That’s not sour grapes, that’s an accurate observation and there is lots of other evidence that other bloggers have presented to support that.
. . . now comes the sour grapes because the FFA were allocated $46M to bid for the FIFA world cup, the highest grossing sporting event in the world.
Millster said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Forgetmenot – your post is absolute proof in the pudding of the self-centred myopic parochial attitude that I was talking about and that I think is totally wrong. Its just the same as, if the situation was reversed, China rocked up here with their badminton team. Except… hang on…. China are a bit cleverer than that, not to mention more diplomatically astute, and would never do such a clumsy and idiotic thing. They would either choose a common sport or would in fact train up a team in one of our sports as a show of giving and of understanding towards us. In any case from both a diplomatic and commercial point of view, and more broadly because it symbolises a totally stupid and wrong dynamic, I could not be more opposed to your post.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
Jimbo,
I doubt you ever said a good thing about the AFL that did not contain some form of back handed compliment, spare me .
The AFL is unheard of in China – well here’s an opportuntity to show them isn’t it.
Like i said if FFA thinks it’s worth pursuing with A League clubs then go your hardest with the Fed Govt, try the green tea it’s not as sour as the lemon.
Redb
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Redb -
what is interesting is the way that MVFC is being targeted by Melbourne Hearts.
We saw back in APril, Joe Mirabella pulling his support (since inception) from MVFC to align with Melb Hearts with whom he is a director.
Samsung pulled out, and Intralot has come on board (not sure how solid that’ll be? Given they’ve falled $226 million below budget and a mid-year Brumby Government review will determine whether the company is fined or even stripped of its 10-year Victorian licence. ), but, it seems Hearts are gunning for Merrick, Muscat and the fellow behind the scenes who set up the Intralot deal.
The point of this – is expansion at the expense of existing franchises is not a good thing, the ‘pie’ needs to be wholly added to – - not partially added and in good part redivided.
MVFC was predicting back before Xmas a financial loss this year because of the cost blow out of the ACL and the drop in memberships and attendances.
It’s one thing for a struggling club (such as in the AFL where more often than not, a number of the bottom 4 or 5 clubs will struggle due to the impact of a failed season) to come from the bottom of the ladder – - but, when a top of the table championship winning club struggles – - –
well, it reminds me of either -
A. my North Melb who won 96 and 99 GF’s and still struggled to turn a profit because the AFL had the Collingwood attitude that the winning team would sell all this merchandise and really stock up on memberships etc for the next year etc etc
or
B. the NBL, with GF winning teams on the verge of falling over during the GF series.
Now I’m not saying MVFC is in either of these situations, as, relatively speaking in the HAL they are a booming club – - but, gee – - you gotta be careful about having boundless enthusiasm, when, you’re just about to see the competition flag ship club rattled rather severely by a same town/same stadium competitor.
So, expansion in my mind, shouldn’t be so concerned just about improving quality – - but, it should NOT be at the expense of the existing franchises. However, in the GFC at present, it might be nigh on impossible to insist otherwise. FOr now, MVFC will be interesting to observe, as, none of the other expansion teams will be sharing a venue – - and sharing a venue for start up clubs is in effect having no real distinction other than colour of home strip.
AGain – no idea where MVFC has found this $500K, but, it’s doubtful the club overdraft is taking this hit – so there’s probably a ‘white knight’ within who is bankrolling it. Now – - if that indicative of the strength of the local competition? or just the pockets of a loyal supporter?
Lazza said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
“What has happened to Adelaide United?”
We’re looking for a new owner, the last one is having a few problems with the Banks calling in their loans on his business interests. The debts are fairly minor and we have a ACL campaign coming up so someone, hopefully, will come along.
An Asian tycoon with deep pockets would be nice.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Jimbo -
where are these govt funds for AFL exhibition matches??
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Lazza -
no chance of reverting to a member based ‘community’ club ownership structure?? Now’d be a perfect time to do it, with the appeal of a better funded ACL campaign ahead – - and it’d allow the town to fully embrace the club and vote out any pissant coaches and CEOs!!!
Pippinu said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Jimbo
here is my oft-repeated phrase, and I’ll repeat it here again:
over a 130 year period, if you were to check the books of the VFA/VFL/AFL you would find that the government has never provided any of these organisations a single cracker, with the exception of a recent indigenous youth program worth some $450,000 per annum.
Let me give everyone a hint – you do not grow rich and prosperous relying on hand outs from Government (unless your a defence contractor working for the Bush administration) – if you don’t believe – check out the ABC!
This China exhibition match is part of the Australian contribution to the Shanghai Expo – if the Federal Government provides any money at all (and I’m not even aware if that’s the case) – it will be in the context of preparing an Australian expo entry worth something like $83 million.
I do know this – The league is looking for sponsors for the match, to cost about $650,000 to stage.
Generally speaking, the AFL picks up the tab for its overseas jaunts (occasionally picking up a little bit in the way of sponsorships).
If it has had the smarts to get a bit of AUSTRADE assistance in setting up a game as part of this expo business – good luck to it, but I repeat:
over a 130 year period, if you were to check the books of the VFA/VFL/AFL you would find that the government has never provided any of these organisations a single cracker, with the exception of a recent indigenous youth program worth some $450,000 per annum.
Redb said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Pip,
It’s amazing how Simon Crean has been Minister of Trade for the last 30 years that AFL matches have been played overseas.
Redb
Lazza said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
Where’s the money coming from to fund the new AFL stadium on the Gold Coast? Is the AFL going to fund the redevelopment of AAMI and Subiaco? Don’t pretend to be all pure and innocent with me pal? The AFL sticks it’s snout in the public trough as good as anyone?
What’s wrong with Government funding sport anyway? Present your case and it get’s evaluated on it’s merits.
Pippinu said | May 14th 2009 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
Sorry Lazza – I have to pull you up on very loose language.
Carrara is not an AFL stadium (certainly, it will not be owned or even controlled by the AFL), it’s a sporting facility that can host AFL games in Winter and cricket in Summer. Right across Australia, aussie rules games are played on ovals that are used for cricket games in Summer. For the most part, it’s aussie rules money that funds the maintenance of such ovals. Indeed, aussie rules has been subsidising cricket, some say our national sport, for 151 years.
The AFL does not control either AAMI or Subiaco (but AFL games pay for their upkeep and maintenance).
In all cases where various levels of government have assisted in the development of sporting facilities capable of hosting AFL games (which will charge the AFL top dollar for their use), the AFL has made significant financial contributions, i.e. it has granted its own money to the building of a community facility over which it has no ownership claim and no control.
Robbos said | May 14th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
You spin it Pip & we will believe it.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Robbos -
what spin has Pip put on it??
You bemuse me somedays!!
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 5:13pm | Report comment
PUt simply -
the AFL invest $10 million out of a total of $130 million for a venue that will be owned by the Gold Coast City Council – - the Council benefits from $90 odd mill from state and fed govts, and puts in about $20 odd mill of it’s own. Not a bad deal at all really.
Hmm, consider the new Melb rectangle stadium…..100% State Govt funded whilst zippo comes from the privately owned franchises to play there, or the NRL, FFA, News Ltd etc.
How much did the NRL contribute to the $280 million Suncorp upgrade??
Heck, how much did soccer or rugby contribute to the SFS, or Homebush, or Skilled Stadium?
How much did the AFL contribute to Docklands? $30 mill up front and Govts zero.
How much has the AFL and WAFC invested in Subiaco?
other sports must LOVE the AFL. All these infrastructure improvements that they get to leverage off. Cricket especially. They have more tact. Unlike the RU and Soccer folk who whinge that Subiaco and Docklands aren’t good viewing grounds……..well why the F should any Government care???
And people then come on here an whinge that the AFL are getting Govt handouts??? Madness. Sheer madness.
The only thing spinning Robbos is your logic,….or lack thereof, as, the best you could managed was a single line without any basis of fact or supporting argument.
Okay – - bait taken. TIme to head home shortly.
(Zac – you’ve got to stop these people putting such tasty morsels out there!!!!)
MVDave said | May 14th 2009 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Great news re quality of league today MV confirmed resigning of ‘the Jackal’ Carlos Hernandez for 3 years and also Thai International Surat Sukha, a mifielder, who helped destroy Victory in the ACL game in Bangkpk last year. Great work MV !
BTW CH transfer reputed to be $500,000.
Pip
Your last post…April Fools was last month!
Albert Ross said | May 14th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
Redb drivels Oh and DS, Albanese is a politician representing western Sydney.
Grayndler is a latte and chardonnay drinking INNER Sydney seat. Albo is a rat who wanted to build an airport in western Sydney so that he and his poovey electorate could sit outside on the terrace sipping their beverages. Fortunately he got rolled over in caucus.
mahony said | May 14th 2009 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
A number of the leading football players from Australia could not walk though the trade expo without chaos resulting. If both AFL teams went on a crime spree at Pudong airport they would still not be noticed. People who think otherwise fail to understand two important facts (1) China is unimaginably massive to many of us; and (2) the AFL is unimaginably small to many of them.
MVDave said | May 14th 2009 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
MC
The complaints arent that AFL received Govt money but that somehow,according to Pip they didn’t??, or that somehow they are more deserving. Quite happy for the Govt to put more money into sports/infrastructure but please lets acknowledge that all/most sports receive Govt handouts.
jimbo said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Why is it that everytime the AFL tries to promote itself or expand into new territory some government or council is involved and large amounts of money change hands.
Pip,
rather than “not a single cracker”, I would argue on the contrary that the AFL prostitutes itself to get money from councils and governments (that was collected from taxpayers) to help expand their AFL code.
The point isn’t that AFL is trying to expand the game – that’s great – I hope AFL is played all around the world one day. The issue is the way they do it. Why don’t they use their own money and do it themselves?
If the objective of the Department of Trade’s journey to China to stage a sports game is to promote Australian trade then AFL isn’t the right sport.
Its more a case of the AFL using the Department of Trade to promote AFL.
The AFL press back here lap it up like its the greatest story since up your Cazaly – its front and back page news and surprise surprise, helps put a few more bums on seats at the weekend games.
Michael C said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
MVDave -
but the AFL did NOT receive money. If the AFL were recieving the money then it would building assets that it owns.
Jimbo -
illustrate where the AFL has prostituted itself for funding – - come on, I dare ya. You keep going on about this but offer nothing. Put up or shut up.
Mahony -
so what? (by the way – which australian soccer stars in particular, Viduka?? Kewell?? household names in China? Don’t you realise, the Socceroos all look the same to the Chinese!!
MVDave -
congratulations – 3 years of ’stability’. Which is more than all these 1 year wonder past their best imports and short term signings can offer. In a crowded market, you need guys to stick. Fred was perhaps a far bigger loss for MVFC than many realise. The dynamic due of Fred and Archie T I reckon would be worth a few thousand attendees each week. CH doesn’t quite have the profile/appeal that Fred had…..or……perhaps people felt burned by Fred and didn’t want to give away their ‘hearts’ too soon.
NUFCMVFC said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Nice article Mike,
Generally to ensure the talent pool isn’t stretched too much, especially with some players moving to Asia as well as Europe, is to stop at about 12 teams for a while
3 things will determine god quality, youth development, imports and returning Euro Socceroos, youth league will do OK, mix that in with some good recruiting from State Leagues, the recruitment of foreigners and scouting dept are slowly improving, ensuring more hits than misses (Dadi, Hernandez, Rodriguez), and of course we have to ensure that a culture develops where established pros in Europe feel it is OK and even a bit of an obligation to return and play out one or two years locally al Muscat, Moore, Popovic, Lazaridis, Culina of course, hopefully Sterjovski etc
Robbos said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
You spin me right round, right round.
Yes you can spin it, watch me, spin it.
Why shouldn’t the government support the Football, as you have mentioned this sport whose participation rate is up because as you put it with over 35s & women. Yes this sport gives you diversity AFL does not,allows people of all ages & gengers to play, it has national teams in men’s, women’s, U23’s, u20’s both men & women, under 17s, u15s, in beach football, in fusbol, in homeless people. It gives you huge diversity. The government should invest more money in football as it battles ill health,& obisiety.
The pride & joy the socceroos provided in 2006 to help lift the country is something AFL can only dream about. Why souldn’t the government fund this ahead of a game played in 3-4 states that really is only played to keep fit for cricket players.
as I said earlier MC, you spin me right round, baby, right round. It’s easy to spin to suit your argument & that is all Pip was doing with his last post as pointed out by other bloggers.
You believe what you want, that’s OK, but please avoid the spinning wheel on a football topic.
Redb said | May 15th 2009 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Jimbo,
I don’t how you can state so hypocriticially that the AFL alone uses Government money to expand the game. Are there not multiple futbol programs being funded by the Federal Government as we speak? has not rugby league been given money to grow their game in PNG?
Refresh my memory, how much money did the FFA put into Skilled stadium on the Gold Coast or the new rectangular stadium in Melbourne. The AFL is putting up $10 million it its own money to assist with the redevelopment of Carrera.
Redb
Redb said | May 15th 2009 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Pip,
Actually, AAMI is owned by the SANFL and Subiaco by the WAFL. Thus AFL club friendly venues.
AR,
Albanese is inner West. http://www.anthonyalbanese.com.au/
Get your facts right.
Redb
Michael C said | May 15th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Robbos -
you’ve still struggled to give us anything……….except vague memories of 2006………..but, on a week to week basis, 2006 is a long long time ago……..oh okay, you’re looking forward to 2010.
As the Govt helps to prop up an industry that ships young gentleman off shore to earn lots of money in Europe and return none of the benefits to Australia……yup, good investment. And even then, we have to pay for them to come together now and then and ‘represent’ us in a yellow shirt – - although at the Asian Cup they showed they couldn’t even be relied on to do that all that terribly well.
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
redb
You’re right – but the important point is that those grounds are not owned and controlled by the AFL – that’s the crux of the point I am making.
Similalry, the new GC and WS developments will not be owned and controlled by the AFL, they will be major tenants – that’s quite a difference in my view (also recalling that the AFL pays top dollar for renting grounds, probably higher than any other sport).
The AFL will utlimately own the Dome in 2025, or thereabouts, but not one dollar of Government money went into developing that ground – it was all private money.
over a 130 year period, if you were to check the books of the VFA/VFL/AFL you would find that the government has never provided any of these organisations a single cracker, with the exception of a recent indigenous youth program worth some $450,000 per annum.
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 9:47am | Report comment
I’ll repeat again – you do not grow rich and prosperous relying on government hand outs (unless your a defence contractor working directly to the Bush administration and have been hired to torment the world’s poorest citizens).
Show me an organisation reliant on government hand outs, and I will show you a failed entity.
jimbo said | May 15th 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Over the years we bloggers have given you AFL people plenty of links to evidence of government funding for AFL. If you don’t read or understand them, then I won’t bother posting them again.
All sports get government funding, just accept it and stop this “not a cracker” nonsense.
Compared on a per registered player basis and compared to what the codes have in their bank accounts, the AFL are way out in front and the FFA way behind the others.
Let’s put the Shoe on the other foot shall we.
Melbourne has a second A-League franchise approved – let’s call them Melbourne Heart for arguments sake.
The Heart start lobbying the government and councils and a few days later Maroondah City council and the Victorian government announce that they will spend $28M of ratepayers and state government money developing a council site for Heart to use as a “Soccer Training Facility”.
Then a few days later the Victorian and Federal government announce that they will spend $100M to re-develop the MCG as a rectangular stadium to increase the ground’s capacity and accommodate the Hearts home “Soccer games”.
What would you guys think of that:
a. That’s OK – it’s a facility that will be used by the Community and its OK for the government to spend $128M on “Soccer”
b. “Soccer” is a parasite on governments and taxpayers.
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Jimbo
The MCG is a fairly extreme example – it’s like saying how would people feel if the Opera House made way for a multi-floor car park.
I’ll only repeat – you don’t become rich and prosperous on government hand outs – if anyone thinks the AFL has that over all other sports, they are way, way off track.
I promise you – only persue this particular point if you really know the ultimate answer.
Now, do you really want me to repeat my 130 year quote?
jimbo said | May 15th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
No thanks Pip, I’ve heard it often enough, although it does bring a wry smile to my face every time I read it.
The 2 best and most famous grounds in Sydney – ANZ and Sydney Cricket Ground, have been re-developed for AFL with plenty of taxpayers money, so the Melbourne Cricket Ground is not such a far fetched example.
You don’t seem to fully appreciate the situation up here.
True Tah said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
jimbo
what Pip is getting at is that the AFL itself has not received cash, rather the governments, be they state or federal or local, have spent money on facilities which the AFL uses. However the AFL is far from alone in being the only sporting entity which uses such facilities, futbol, rugby, cricket have all been played at the MCG and Telstra Dome at various stages. Playing at these venues has certainly not hurt futbol whatsoever has it?
Maybe the AFL is guilty of being the beneficiary of government spending on sporting facilities, but there is no way that the finger can be pointed at them solely.
If anything, the Fed Govt in particular is probably against Australian Football as a sport, given that it takes athletes away from other sports, such as athletics, basketball, futbol, rugby, etc in which Australia competes or attempts to compete on an international scale. Having said that, said athletes make the choice to play Australian Football so you cannot blame the AFL for offering a good product, we’re not a communist nation where people were strongly encouraged to take up certain sports.
Robbos said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
MC, you & your cohorts can spin all you want & so can I.
Like I said, with football you have 40- 50 year old men playing, you have 8 year old girls playing, you have people playing beach football, indoor football.
You have 10-12 national teams you need to cater for everything from your professionals earning millions to 15 year girls still at school to homeless people.
Football has the ability to attract the greatest sporting event in the world.
The 2nd greatest sporting event in the world, a mulitpule sporting event, it’s biggest pulling sport is football
Football can also provide a national women’s competitition.
Football has a national youth league.
What do you have in AFL 1 national team that plays a hybrid game few people are interested, we need to wait till Mr Crean to get the China team up to scratch to play further int’ls.
So if you were the government which game would you invest in?
Which sport would give the government the best investment?
Like I said AFL has the the best adminstrated & best supported sport in Australia, I’m big enough to admit that, but football gives you so much more. Are you big enough to admit that.
Slippery Jim said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Jimbo is right, we have all posted more then ample evidence to prove Pippu’s statement about AFL/VFL never receiving a cracker from the government. Not going to bother again if he can’t see reason. Reptition won’t make you any less wrong, Pippu – give it a rest.
Koala Bear said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
Jimbo, and Robbos,
you are not alone .. Cricket tragic, Gideon Haig, on the ABC Offisders program said the AFL want the government to pay for everthing … And so, we have examples of that, with the GC17 club gifted, a soon to be $160m AFL purpose built stadium, for only some 6 matches a season…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
tt
that’s is what I am saying – of course the argument can be expanded even further beyond that point – but I will leave my powder dry for the moment – as I said, if anyone else wants to pursue that debate further, they better have all the facts and figures in front of them before they start.
Robbos
I’ve never had anything contrary to say about whatever facilities are being built (and as a Victory member, I’m looking forward to seeing games at the new venue – I think the sporting experience will be close to the best in Australia).
But I rile against anyone implying that somehow the AFL has got fat on government hand outs – the history of Australian Football going back to 1858 is the exact opposite – and I am happy to recount it for everyone who wants to hear it.
And if anyone wants to get into the game of comparing direct government assistance and who contributes the most to building and maintaining sporting facilities, well, they better do so armed with all the facts and figures, because they might be in for a rude shock.
For instance, Jimbo mentions money being spent on the SCG (noting it’s a cricket ground first and foremost and has always been a cricket ground first and foremost).
But does he mention who generates the most revenue to assist in maintaining it, and even paying for improvements?
Does he mention the direct contributions the AFL makes to improvements (to an asset it neither owns or controls)?
Are people aware that the AFL made a financial contribution to the building of ANZ Stadium (way, way back in the early stages of its development)?
Yes – they were motivated by ensuring the ground remained oval to be able to stage AFL games down the track (which it has done with great success) – but at least the AFL put up money for it and had the vision to push the idea – once again, a ground that it will never own or control.
In the meantime, at the time of the 2000 Olympics, Canberra’s Bruce stadium, formerly a ground that could accomodate all four codes, was turned permanently into a rectangular stadium so that they could host a few Olympic football games (at enormous expense to Canberra ratepayers).
It’s a fantastic facility, but even with decent rugby and league crowds, it’s failing to generate sufficient money for its upkeep.
If a sporting facility fails to generate sufficient revenue to pay for its own upkeep, then it’s right to ask questions about whether the original expenditure was appropriate and good use of taxpayer’s funds.
With any facility that hosts AFL games – the question of generating revenue never arises – as a tenant, the AFL pays absolute top dollar (in some celebrated cases, to the detriment of the clubs involved).
Michael C said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Jimbo -
the SCG is a cricket oval. Don’t forget that. Just as with the Gabba – the upgrade is based in no small measure on ensuring a top flight ground for international cricket. In the case of the SCG – the cricket capacity pales against the MCG – - and conceptually against Homebush.
The AFL HELPS justify this expenditure because – you get 8 or 10 or 12 games of AFL footy there each year too. You CAN NOT exclude cricket from this discussion.
Homebush – again, the AFL contributed $6 million to help ensure that it could be set up to allow Aust Footy. And since then, they’ve played 3 and last year 4 games a year plus 4 finals in total and have provided over a million attendees at an average of 46,000.
Not a bad value add for the stadium.
What’s you’re problem?
btw – why would you redevelop the SCG – a cricket ground – for soccer/rugby with the SFS built right next door? LIkewise, why would you redevelop the MCG for soccer/rugby with a brand spanking new dedicated stadium built right next door.
Silly example really.
True Tah – on the money. And most certainly – the HOward Govt was effectively a stated enemy of the AFL. THe AFL exists despite them. Thankfully people power still holds some sway.
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Gideon Haig – cricket tragic – would be aware that aussie rules has subsidised cricket all over the nation for the past 151 years!!
Does anyone truly believe that the magnificent 100,000 capacity MCG has been funded on cricket money?? – give me a break!!!!
Honestly…
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Do people think that the MCC has a long waiting list for members (you need to put your name down when you’re born to get a chance at a membership in you mid 30s) – just so as they can watch the Boxing Day test once a year????
Are you guys on drugs or something???
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Do I have to repeat again, that the Dome, which the AFL will own outright in 2025, and which the Victory has being using almost free of charge the last few seasons, perhaps the very best sporting facility in Australia, was built without a cent of Government money.
Have a think about that, and also have a think about why the AFL will own it outright in 2025.
Koala Bear said | May 15th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Pippi
you keep on with the Dome being handed over to the AFL when they only hold an “option contract” on the facility .. So then.. what is the exersced price to be paid before the expiry date in 2025 .. ? $460m ?
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | May 15th 2009 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
careful Pip – - you’ll be accussed of spinning again by those who refuse to concede to facts.
do you ever feel like you’re just spinning your wheels in the mud.
I figure either these guys are stubbornly ignorant or they are just Friday arvo fishing. Let’s hope it’s the fishing.
Michael C said | May 15th 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
KB -
the option seems to be ‘free’ of charge come 2025. Have you found anything to contradict that? The AFL commitment to play at the venue is the mode of ‘payment’ above and beyond the $30 million cash. And the share holders are very happy right now – thankyou very much (actually, have you got your super invested in there?)
Koala Bear said | May 15th 2009 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
MC,
you don’t know what an Option contract is … It has no equity attached to it … It merely is an Option to buy… without the obligation …You have to do some research in what an Option Contract really is … As for the clubs that play out of the Dome for their home fixtures, they are renting the facility that is all… Come up with some concrete evidence (a link) to back up your statement… Mirvac would no doubt be interested ….
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | May 15th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
KB -
ah, but, we only saw ‘option’ appear in an unclear context via one of the links I provided you that described that at 2025 the AFL will have the option to take ownership of the stadium. Now – you’ve interpreted that as being a standard ‘option contract’. There may be the mistake?
That’s why I invite you to do some research to proove your theory, as, it’s really not based on anything contrete as yet. I really can’t be bothered – - for now, I’m happy to believe the overwhelming intimations that the AFL has nothing to pay on that day – but, that they are not 100% obliged to take full control.
I’m just happy that people are seriously on the verge of ‘concrete’ action around a 3rd Melb venue – as, more than anything, that will ensure the on going survival of clubs that otherwise struggle for no good reason considering the money in the game (but, again, the AFL are good for the economy – I’d rather my super invested in operating Docklands than in operating Bruce stadium or Homebush!!!)
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
This article mentions that the AFL is due to take over ownership of the ground in 2025.
http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-retail-stores-not/4382936-1.html
It’s common knowledge amongst everyone who follows the AFL – I really don’t know why some try to make it out as some sort of improbable event.
Koala Bear said | May 15th 2009 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
MC,
ha ha, Pippi’s desperate link has proven he is a fool … no mention of the AFL’s Option contract that was tabled in the AFL Annual report back in 2001, which you provided to me … Don’t forget John Elliot’s remarks on the dealings (Option Contract) Graeme Samuels being the instigator of this incredible stupid deal done by him that he has to shoulder the blame for …
Nah, you guys have no idea what is going on and no link to prove me wrong, nor John Elliot; of the stupidity of it all… It seems to me that the 3rd option of a 3rd stadium is probably the proof of it all that, there will be no AFL ownership of the Dome in 2025 and the most likely outcome will be that Mirvac will pull the Dome down… Most probably to build a residential and office business precinct to service the new rectangular stadium… Ha ha…
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | May 15th 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
Pippi,
AFL did not bid and the new owners are Mirvac and their assoc…..
~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | May 15th 2009 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
KB
I understand what you are saying but it’s news to me .. so let me see if I understand what you say.
The AFL hold an option contract to buy Docklands in 2025 from Mirvac.
We have no idea what price is on the option contract …but assume in the hundreds of millions of dollars……. Meaning you believe the AFL has to pay a considerable sum of money to excise their rights under the option.
If the AFL do not excise their option rights….ownership of Docklands will remain with Mirvac..
I have to say KB that has never been my understanding or have I ever read anyone else put it that way … but if you are right it changes a lot of assumed knowledge on the future ownership of Docklands…
How sure are you of the …….” option with price” ….. contract in 2025… and do you have any proof… arguably the biggest post or story ever posted on the Roar … dare I say this years biggest news story if you are correct…
Pippinu said | May 15th 2009 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
Mid
KB is full of crap as usual.
As I said, it has been common knowledge ever since the Dome was first planned. For two years now, KB has had trouble accepting that it was possible that such a facility could be built without any government funding.
There are a milion references that mention the AFL taking it over in 2025, here are a few:
http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-retail-stores-not/4382936-1.html
http://www.austadiums.com/news/news.php?id=374
http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-4711-0-0-0&sID=56333&articleID=7545052&news_task=DETAIL
It’s been known by everyone since day one.
Midfielder said | May 15th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Mike
Posted this to Jes as well … But…………..
Have you heard of Christian Esposito can you give us any details on him.. Has anyone heard of this kid .. he sounds the goods .. Fozza will have a heart attack if he looks at his coaches …
But with AC Milan chasing you and being picked in a Serie B side ( Albinoleffe ) he sounds like he is a real talent …
As a side issue Adelaide produce some good players for such a small city that is AFL dominated.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25470273-5006373,00.html
A MODERN Adelaide-born version of Italian super striker Christian Vieri is set to be torn between two countries after making his debut for Albinoleffe’s Serie B side at the weekend.
Christian Esposito is eligible to play for Australia and Italy due to his heritage.
He is also on the wanted list of glamour club AC Milan.
Esposito, 18, has attracted the attention of Australian national team talent scouts after rising from the grinding ranks of the tactically superior Italian coaching schools.
His father, Joe, lives in Campbelltown while his mother, Maria, lives in Bergamo, Italy.
Esposito received his first team call-up against Frosinone on Sunday after scoring five goals for Albinoleffe’s under-21 side, which plays in Italy’s famed Primavera national youth league system.
He was the youngest ever Albinoleffe player to make his debut, said father Joe Esposito.
“I’m proud of Christian,” he said.
“Playing for the Socceroos would be a dream for him.
“He wanted to come to Australia but I really want him to make a go of his career in Italy.”
Vieri rose to prominence when he returned to Italy after Marconi Stallions introduced the star to the game as a teenager before scoring 23 goals in 49 appearances for the Italian national side
Midfielder said | May 15th 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Mike
Sorry but we don’t have thread for breaking news … but Christian Esposito makes a number of young players pushing for selection… Rhys Williams, Bradden Inman, Shane Lowry, Richard Porta, Bouzanis … I am feeling good about the future … hope he picks Australia like his Dad says he wants too.
Summary
Rhys Williams chooses Australia over Wales call up,
Bradden Inman chooses Australia over Scotland call up,
Shane Lowry chooses Australia over Ireland call up,
Bouzanis chooses Australia over Greek call up,
If Christian Esposito picks Australia too over Italy then how good is that.
Add Troisi who choose Australia over two other countries I think Italy was one cannot think of the other, Jedi who choose Australia over Croatia.
Add Nathen Burns, James Holland and man we are looking good for 2014 as well….
jimbo said | May 15th 2009 @ 11:40pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
the large and growing number of registered junior football players in this country might not be translating into enormous crowds at games, but the A-League, Youth League, AIS and football academies are providing opportunities for young players to make a career out of the game and no surprise to me that a lot of bright young Aussie talent is making a name for themselves both here and abroad.
Christian Esposito looks like a very good prospect from all accounts and hopefully will play for the Socceroos, but he may well end up like the other more famous Christian Aussie Italian who ended up playing for Italy instead.
Koala Bear said | May 16th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
The AFL, which will own outright the stadium by 2025, will argue a clause in the contract decrees that it must be asked for approval before naming rights are granted.
All that reporting preceded the sale of Channel 7’s equity (stake) to Mirvac or have failed to understand the ramifications of it being sold to Mirvac and co. ???
Pippi,
you keep on with it… But you do not understand what an Option Contract is by definition … It’s a contract with no “Equity” John Elliot has said it’s the worst mistake the AFL have ever made …
The Option Contract Components:
1. Underlying Security (Dome)
2. Option Contract size ($30m)
3. Expiry Day (somewhere in 2025)
4. Exercised Price ($ ??? ???)
Pippi, just answer the fourth question and I will be satisfied it’s a done deal…. And the option price is always near 10% of the agreed Exercise Price…
The taker has the right to buy.. but not the obligation to exercise .. It seems to me they have sold that option to Mirvac and its subsidiaries with the purchase of Waverly who are the current owners of the Etihad Dome..
~~~~~~~
KB
Norm said | May 16th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
KB
Have a look at this story in today’s SMH
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/up-there-cazaly-is-losing-his-grip-on-aussie-rules/2009/05/15/1242335880618.html
Koala Bear said | May 16th 2009 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Midfielder,
read my post to Pippi… I have continually asked; what is the Exercised Price of the Option Contract… (A reasonable question to ask) And no reply as usual … So they don’t know what the hell is going on.. Except for their usual interchange of mouth to anal body parts… And to reply with the usual bullshit propaganda, which they continually sprout on the ROAR of taking ownership in 2025 for zilch …
Let me remind you, if you don’t already know that an Option taker (AFL $30m) has no equity value on a security… It’s not a deposit; nor a down payment.. It’s merely an option to exercise an agreed purchase price on a security that has an expiry date attached (2025)..
However, that option can be passed on to a new taker; in this case I am surmising it was Mirvac as they seem to be the new owners of the Etihad Dome… A reasonable assumption to make when you can see on Wikipedia they have stated as much…
All I ask is if they claimed to know so much; is to give the missing detail on the Option Contract … ie the “Exercise Price” of the agreed purchase… As sure as eggs.. Can you see Mirvac handing over the title deed to the AFL for a mere $30m after paying something like $300m to secure the title.?. I think not….
~~~~~~~
KB
Koala Bear said | May 16th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
John Pluto, 21, a stockman and one of the Cyclones’ stars, says he played Australian football four years ago but is now sold on soccer because it is “more skilful and fun”. His idols are the Brazilian soccer star Ronaldinho and Australian Harry Kewell.
Norm,
thanks for the link .. a heart warming story…. Ben Buckley is changing the face of the Australian sporting landscape in the bush…
MC, will soon be around to give his take on falling attendances … only 18k for the Nth Melb Bengal Lancer at the Dome a week ago… hmm I can’t wait to hear why…
~~~~~~~~
KB
The 1 and Only Master said | May 16th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Typical anti Australian Football article from the running scared media from Sydney, particularly the SMH with it’s pitiful circulation numbers. I suppose when your top heavy with soccer supporters as journo’s and management you will be out of step with the Australian public.
Yes I’m sure AFL house is in a panic that a town of 900 has a soccer team. Did notice that they having an Australian Rules oval going in however, not a soccer one.
How this article can make the papers is really beyond comprehension
Norm said | May 16th 2009 @ 11:53pm | Report comment
Tell us master what it really is that you find objectionable about the good folk of Borroloola.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 17th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Hah, the A-League is a gyoza….. or is it the white fluffy curry filled thing you eat at 7-11 at 2am?
Regardless there is a need to continually improve the quality of the league. What I am unclear of is the anticipated time-line. In the short to medium term the National Youth League will assist in identifying and developing talent whilst the clubs will get better at both bringing talent home as well as identifying better imports.
The question is the long term. How long will it take for those kids in new youth development programmes to make an impact on the local scene? Hopefully not too long as the patience of sections of the sporting public is somewhat limited. Personally I believe we are currently on the right track and as more and more players emerge from the NYL the game will improve.