By Spiro Zavos
May 25th 2009 @ 6:46am
Related coverage
Bulls to drop-kick Chiefs out of Super 14 final
South Africa's Bulls captain Victor Matfield gestures to the fans after winning the semi-final of the Super 14 rugby match against New Zealand Crusaders at the Loftus Versfeld stadium in Pretoria, South Africa, Saturday May 23, 2009. The Bulls defeated the Crusaders 36-23. (AP Photo/Themba Hadebe
The Bulls have a drop kick expert in Morne Steyn as he showed with his match-winning four field goals in the semi-final at Pretoria against a clever and brave Crusaders side. But more importantly, they are one of the few teams in international rugby to have a system to exploit Steyn’s talent.
One of the rules regarding a short-arm penalty is that a side cannot kick a penalty or field goal directly from it. There has to be a phase of play before the field goal can be kicked. It has always defied my understanding why sides don’t have a play when close to the opposition posts (or further away in the case of Steyn) to set up a field goal attempt.
The Bulls did this when they were 20 – 14 down after 35 minutes of play. Then they did it again to take the score to 20 – 20.
A man down after Thomas Waldrom was (incorrectly, in my opinion) sinbinned for lying on the wrong side in a maul – what about every ruck and maul that Bakkies Botha is involved in? – the Crusaders made a couple of breakouts and almost scored. A stupid chip kick followed and Pierre Spies took off from about 60m out and the Bulls were in front on the dot of half-time.
This score-line was against the run of play with the Crusaders bombing a handful of try-scoring opportunities.
In the second half they ran out of gas as the Bulls became increasingly rampant with hard, direct and fast running.
The crucial part of the Bulls game, though, was the way they were prepared to accept a three-point field goal when it was available rather than push on for a possible try. In tight finals contests this approach makes sense, if you have a player who can slot the kicks.
Which team do the Bulls resemble in this determination to drop-kick opponents out of games? And which player does Steyn resemble in his ability to slot field goals from any part of the field?
Answer: Sir Clive Woodward’s 2003 Rugby World Cup champions England side. And Jonny Wilkinson.
The point about field goals if the system is well-rehearsed and the kicker is an expert striker of the ball is that they are almost impossible to stop. If sides over-compensate on preventing field goals by rushing forward, as the Crusaders did from time to time, they leave gaps in their defensive lines for good running backs to exploit.
There is always an argument about the value of a field goal at 3 points. Up to the 1950s field goals used to be worth 4 points. This was a throwback to the earliest days of rugby when no points were awarded for crossing the line, which then allowed a side to ‘try’ to score from a goal. As rugby was seen as a kicking game as in ‘rugby football’ there was a tendency to reward kicking in the points system.
A tendency that remains, somewhat as a fossil of past eras, with the 3-point drop goal. It should be 2-points, of course, but no one should expect this to happen soon.
One of the consequences of the short-arm sanctions under the ELVs played in the Super 14 (but revoked for all rugby after next Saturday’s Super 14 final) is that there are fewer full-arm penalties awarded. This, in turn, means in general fewer penalty goals kicked. In this context, under the ELVs, the field goal can become a surrogate penalty goal.
The Chiefs have the kind of game, ball in hand with lots of pace out wide, that could worry the Bulls. But this is a difficult game to play at altitude, especially for sides that are not acclimatised by living on the veldt.
Unfortunately for the Chiefs, too, they may not have Brendon Leonard or apparently Sitiveni Sivivatu. Sivivatu was the difference between the Chiefs and the Hurricanes on Friday night. His broken field running, especially from high balls taken by Mils Muliaina, broke down a strong Hurricanes defensive pattern and led directly to Muliaina’s try that gave the Chiefs the lead.
Unlike the Crusaders, the Chiefs are historically not a good travelling side. They don’t win often in South Africa.
They have to travel from Hamilton to Pretoria this week. Their lineout is a bit shaky. They haven’t played impressively in their last two matches. You’d have to say that the Bulls must be favoured to win the final.
If I were Chiefs coach Ian Foster (a Morne Steyn type of kicking five-eighths in his day) I’d be getting Callum Bruce and Stephen Donald putting in plenty of practice at kicking field goals.
In the altitude of Pretoria, as the Bulls demonstrated against the Crusaders, it’s often the best tactic to kick your way to a victory rather than try to run your way to glory.
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Sam Taulelei said | May 25th 2009 @ 7:06am | Report comment
It would be tempting after their success against the Crusaders for the Bulls to overplay their hand with the dropkick. I remember after Jannie de Beer’s incredible effort against England in the 1999 quarterfinal that he tried to repeat that effort against Australia but was lacking in accuracy. Ironically it was a dropkick that decided the outcome but it came from an unlikely player and an unlikely position. The Bulls showed last week that they are more than the one dimensional team we had previously thought and I’d hate to see them play more conservatively because it’s the final.
Odds are on a Bulls victory but the Chiefs will be buoyed from their effort on their last visit to Loftus without Leonard and Sivivatu and at least this time they will have Anesi and Masaga on the wings so won’t be lacking in speed on the firm and fast surface. However, the Chiefs inconsistent lineout will make it difficult for them to apply and absorb pressure as the Bulls will look to target that facet of their game. If they keep their heads and play their natural game, I give them an even chance.
ohtani's jacket said | May 25th 2009 @ 7:32am | Report comment
I don’t know how you managed to squeeze an ELVs reference into this article, since there were at least two occasions where dropgoals were taken from full arm penalties
The Chiefs will be up against it, but they’ve overcome a series of obstacles on their way to the final — the 0-3 start, their front five falling apart, the injuries to Leonard, Sivivatu, Masaga and Kahui. They could’ve fallen off on the trip to South Africa or in the home games against the Hurricanes and Brumbies and we all know how unhappy their Super 12 semi outing was. But they didn’t.
They’ve got the best defence of any of the finalists and the best second half defence of any side in the competition. They may be underdogs, but they’ll give it a crack. The Bulls didn’t exactly start well on Saturday and their tactics will be interesting. Will they try to bully the Chiefs’ forward pack and attack the set pieces or will they look to spread it wide again?
Brett McKay said | May 25th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
OJ, Spiro’s actually cleared up a question I’ve long held about why teams don’t just kick a DG immediately from the short arm, so for that I’m thankful for the ELV reference. Correct me please if I’m off the mark, but even the two DGs from the full arm penalties came from one phase play after the tap, didn’t they? If this is the case, Spiro’s reference is valid.
In any case, after Todd Louden described the South African approach to drop goals (they’ll take them if they feel they’re losing ground), and also the three-kick strategy to we Roarers a month or two ago, I watched the Bulls performance from a different perspective, and with an appreciation for their execution, rather than leading the chorus of booing constant field goals like I once would. They played the perfect semi-final strategy, and I think the Chiefs will need evey trick in their book to win the final.
Harry said | May 25th 2009 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Chiefs have a strong and under-rated tight 5 and a very good backrow with Luaki and Messam both having X-factor attacking skills – power and pace respectively. They also played well in Pretoria in the regular season and have a really strong backline, even missing Sivi. They have had 3 good wins in a row at home against quality opposition so are certainly match-hardened.
All that said, hard to go past the Bulls at home, whose attacking skills and flair is not given due recognition. Suspect they will try to dominate possession and field position in the 1st half (grind em down), not give the ball away as much as they did against the Saders. But as they showed on the weekend, they can switch to an open attacking game when they have to.
2 high quality teams – Mills, Habana, Du Preez, Spies and Matfield would all be in my current world XV, as would the injured Sivi, and not many weaknesses on either side.
Hammer said | May 25th 2009 @ 9:34am | Report comment
I give the Chiefs a decent chance at this … they’ve certainly got far more firepower than a labouring Crusaders backline … and they defend better … Sivivatu’s a big loss – but they’ve got talented back ups
one thing which does surprise me is that given it was at the minimum a 60/40 call the Bulls would win .. why didn’t the Chiefs make the call and travel to Perth on Sat … if the Crusaders won then they could have easily turned back … and as it turn out with a Bulls win they would have a head start on the travel component ….
yeebarr said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:02am | Report comment
“A tendency that remains, somewhat as a fossil of past eras, with the 3-point drop goal. It should be 2-points, of course, but no one should expect this to happen soon.”
Sorry if this is sidetracking Spiro but, as a (sort-of) newbie to this fine game, what is stopping them reducing the field goal to 2 points? Politics? A lengthy review of the potential disruption to a balance of scoring? People are too busy arguing about the ELVs to care?
van der Merwe said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Lack of sour grapes for one thing, yeebarr.
Sam Taulelei said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
I may be biased but I differ from Spiro’s opinion that the Chiefs weren’t impressive in their last two outings against the Brumbies and Hurricanes. It’s difficult to compare finalists performances against each other, and tighter affairs often lead to assumptions that the winner isn’t as strong as another team who won by a wider margin. History is only useful in telling us what did happen and not what is going tol happen. Prior to 2007 the Bulls had never won a semifinal and the Crusaders had never lost one so one finalist will be creating history this weekend.
The Bulls defence hasn’t been as strong in their last two games in conceding tries compared to the Chiefs and that tells me that the Chiefs defensive patterns and attitude is strong. The two no.10’s are similar in style although Donald is more threatening when he decides to run the ball himself and they’re the best in the competition in driving their teams around the park. What has impressed me is how they’ve both overcome adverse situations on the field so their captains are leading very well.
Altitude and homeground advantage will only come into play if the Bulls play well and are leading, the crowd was noticeably subdued and quieter when the Crusaders skipped out to a 20 – 7 lead. The Chiefs will want to take the crowd and referee out of the equation by playing well – I believe they can do it.
Ed said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
The Chiefs have one of the worst set pieces in the super14.
The Bulls game was made for dismantling teams like the Chiefs.
Hemjay said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
I don’t know if this is a case of sour grapes,
It is just more backing that the DG is overvalued. DG kickers are routinely booed no matter where they are. The Bulls however played a smart game and used the laws and available methods of pt scoring to their advantage and look it has paid off. Take the DGs out of the win and the Bulls would have won anyway but be it by only one pt but a wins a win right.
The Saffies have mastered the art of drop goals and we should take our hat off to them for it they are the biggest users of the method and it all stems back to the 95 WC final. I’m not sure if this is a telling sign that the Bokls just don’t seem to know how to score alot of tries and regularly or that they were trying to save themselves for this weekends match against a much higher rated opposition.
while legal I say use them but i point may hand up to say I think they should be devalued. Funny how the ELVs were to encourage more running rugby and try scoring. Well Steyn certainly tipped this theory on its head.
The Chiefs would be risking final glory if they don’t take heed of what the Bulls did. The Crusaders point 20+ points on them so what makes you think the Chiefs a far better team on attack can’t and won’t whilst also preventing Steyn from kicking.
It all remains to be seen and I sure as hell look forward to it. The Chiefs first final and the Bulls first home final should be a cracker
Hemjay said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Ed the Bulls only beat the chiefs by 6 pts, not to mention the fact the chiefs were playing without many of their stars.
So I would say its far from a dismantling.
Also do remember in regular season the chiefs scored the same amount of pts as the bulls while also having a superior defense record. The Chiefs go into this game knowing if the force the Bulls to use the ball they make mistakes also if they can force the Bulls defend the gates do open. That is the key to beating this Bulls team make them defend because being big boys they will tire.
P.s I have heard the ref is a Saffa – Kaplan is there any truth in this?
Rusty said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Lot of raving about Spies and I admit he is magnificent when he gets moving but he still plays too much like a winger for my liking. As much as he is becoming known for his trademark line breaks he is also becoming known for missing first up tackles and ball spilling. It could be the pace he works at but at his size and power he should be smashing people backwards in the tackle instead of turnstiling them through. Ball retention is also a bit of a worry with the habit of carrying the ball in one big hand… other than that Im glad he is playing for the Bokke…now if only we could teach him to drop goal
Sam Taulelei said | May 25th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that I thought Bryce Lawrence had a positive impact on the game with his refereeing.
Jerry said | May 25th 2009 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Lawrence was generally good, but I suspected if the Bulls hadn’t turned things around he was gonna get a lot of stick (at one stage the free kicks and penalties were something like 7-1 in favour of the Crusaders).
There were two bizarre decision he made though, firstly the penalty against the Bulls hooker for offside when the ball was clear of the ruck (the ball was under McCaw was just leaning on the ruck and definitely not bound) and the time he allowed the Bulls fullback to get up after being tackled claiming he was ‘not held’ when the only reason no-one was holding him was cause 3 of the Crusaders drove over the top of him to secure the ruck ball.
Sam Taulelei said | May 25th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
They were odd decisions, and after the final we won’t have to worry about the number of free kicks awarded as penalties will return for all breakdown offences.
Chiefs playing in the final makes good reading for Kiwi rugby teams, every single team has now played in the final which is some achievement. Now if the Chiefs add their name to the Blues, Crusaders, Brumbies and Bulls for winning one that would be even better.
Spiro Zavos said | May 25th 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
The referee is Jonathan Kaplan which is a trravesty. Not because Kaplan is not a good referee, despite his numerous Australian critics he is one of the world’s best. But the perception of refereeing in favour of the local side stains the whole analysis of the game, and affects the outcomes.
I thought that the New Zealander Bryce Lawrence, for instance, was reluctant to be really tough on the Bulls whose frequent illegal disruptions of the ruck and mauls and the invariable placing of a player on the Crusaders side of the ruck warranted a yellow card. Instead, to show impartiality he sin-binned Waldrom, which was a tough call and decisive probably in turning the game to the Bulls.
Will Kaplan be tougher on the Bulls to show his impartiality? Or will he … I can’t finish this sentence the way I want to because of the defamatory implications of what might be expressed.
This fear of defamation when legitimate queries are raised about curious refereeing decisions made earlier in the Super 14 tournament is one the main reasons why the initiative to have local referees rather than neutral referees must be stopped by SANZAR.
When it was brought in we were promised it would NOT apply to the finals. Now we find that a South African referee is refereeing a final in South Africa between a South African team and a New Zealand team.
This just goes against all the precedents of modern sport. It is wrong, not least because of the enormous pressures it places on the referees over and above the usual strain of refereeing a big match.
Hammer said | May 25th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Kaplin’s got the gig HJ …. it’s unfortunate Aust can’t produce a world class contender to ref the game but in the end it’s better to have a quality whistler rather than some clown like Dickinson …. I’ve no problem with it – he’s one of the best doing the rounds and he’ll certainly be able to handle the crowd pressure …
Hemjay said | May 25th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Spiro,
Kaplan also has many critcs in New Zealand so Australians need not worry that they are the only ones who at times question his ability.
Kaplan is a good referee but like anyone else he is just as prone to make decisions that leave us scratching our heads. I guess in some ways we can thank our luck stars its not Goddard….then again the Bulls may well have favoured this.
I have had huge issues with the so called local referees and its very easy to assume that certain referees blew the whistle in favour of their countrymen more often than not. Look at the round robing game between the Canes and the Chiefs Bryce blew this game even though he is actually from the BOP part of the Chiefs franchise. I don’t think he had an influence but many others did. I believe their were many games that had questionable outcomes from some dubious decisions by refs. There are bad decisions evrey year and there will continue to be every season. However they SANZAR seriously need to get rid of this ref system and revert back to neutral referees. if only to quell the conspiracy theories that we are all guilty of harbouring at same stage.
It will be interesting to see how he stands up but I can see the headlines already should the Chiefs lose. Then again imagine should they win, the Bulls will be screaming that Kaplan was too scared to ref the Chiefs.
Lilly Bart said | May 25th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
The Boks seem to have solved their FB problem with Steyn’s great performance. But note the way he kicked those droppies – so relaxed and casual, the very opposiite of a snap.
And it did my heart good to see a Number 8, Spies, running like a centre. But how about a pat on the back for Leon MacDonald for two great runs? And how about two pats on the back for Mils who started the try of the weekend, catching the punt, a reverse to Sivi, Sivi sprints through, and there’s Mils on his shoulder to receive the ball back and take it in for the score. So the Boks have a game-winning FB, the ABs have two, and the Wallabies? Maybe O’Connor will be a game winner, too.
Incidentally, I got the SA feed, and the commentator mentioned McCaw maybe twice in the first half, and not much more in the second half. Did Ritchie have an off day or what?
stuff happens said | May 25th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Having a SA referree is ridiculous as Spiro says as was a NZ ref on Sat. Still, we have the two best teams overall in the S14 in the final. I’m sorry they can’t have two weeks before the final to help the travelling team.
In addition to the points made about the Bulls they also have a very strong forwards bench and again on Sat one of their best forwards was Stegman, who ironically is one of the smallest in a huge pack.
I agree with those who say that the Chiefs pack seems to be underated in NZ.They have been terrific this season.
ohtani's jacket said | May 25th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Brett, the point is I don’t think any team has used the drop goal as a surrogate penalty goal. The South Africans don’t need any encouragement to attempt drop goals. It’s been part of their rugby since Olser and probably before that.
Personally, I thought it was cool. Nobody’s mentioned the fact that the Crusaders made the semis with a drop goal. And then they lost the semi with a barrage of them.
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
If you strip away the field goals the Bulls still scored 3 tries to 2. Field goals win games and for the Bulls union it means muchos denero on Saturday.
Hemjay, I suspect the only people booing the team that scores drop goals are the ones being dropgoaled against.
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
Many NZ fans & commentators couldn’t believe it when the 2007 All Blacks inexplicably failed to use the dropgoal to try and win the game. I saw the game and it was patently clear they had no plan and using the drop was the furthest thing from their mind. If my memory serves me right they left the field in misery and even a national enquiry couldn’t change the nations growing apathy towards the game. The game saturday was one of the greatest fightbacks in semifinal history and the fact that the Bulls scored 3 tries against 2 should get more attention than the dropgoals which should be as part of a rugby teams armoury than a tennis player’s killer serve.
ohtani's jacket said | May 25th 2009 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Well, the thing about drop goals is that they put the defence in two minds about what you’re going to do from the ruck. In 2007, it was obvious that the All Blacks were going to pick and go, so the French only had to commit one or two tacklers.
The other thing about drop goals is that they’re demoralising. In the semi final, the Bulls opted to take a scrum from a full arm penalty and some strong defence from the Crusaders saw them lose a bunch of territory, but Steyn slotted a drop goal anyway. It’s like a basketball player who drives to the basket on one possession and spots up for a three on the next. The opposition can’t guard him either way.
Wast it a great fightback? I dunno. There was a lot of time left in the game and it happened so quickly that it simply became a hiding. I wonder how much effect Waldrom’s sinbinning had on the game. That came at the worst possible time.
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
OJ
I get why you question the “comeback”. For me it was at least very significant simply because it was against such quality opposition. 20-7 in a game where the Saders dominated play for long periods made me remember why they have 7 titles.
Yes, Waldrom’s binning was huge but the droppies would have come in any event. Fact is that the binning came in the first halve so they still had 40 minutes to win the game. Tactically the Bulls kicking was superior which made life difficult for the opposing forwards. Richie McCaw was relatively absent from proceedings (does anyone have his stats?) and he did not have a massive influence on the game but I suspect that the Bulls did not realy care who they played against.
IMO the Crusaders should have anticipated more droppies after the second one landed and that was their downfall. Winning finals is about taking your chances.
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
On the dropkick issue, is it possible that New Zealand teams do not know how or when to employ it? Could it be that they are not used to tight affairs where they have to use “unconventional” means of putting points on the board?
Just read an article about a Bulls fan who left his seat 20 minutes before the end of the game at Loftus and called his mates to bring hom a sleeping bag. He was first in line for tickets and was joined that night by many others. Beautiful.
Hemjay said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
BJ, the crusaders have won 7 finals maybe they felt pity towards the hapless boks and thought they’d share them titles around a bit. I’m not the biggest crusaders fan but isn’t it amazing that everyone wrote them off before the season started and look where they finished up. No other team would’ve made the finals under such huge player drain and injury. What the hell is in the water down there?
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
Hey, I’ll take the Sader’s pity any day! Amazing to think they just keep producing class players who can mix it anywhere anytime. Must have super structures down there. I have always said that McCaw and Carter are the axis of excellence for NZ rugby and for them to have reached the semis after lying in 9th for a long time is a miracle which they just happen to repeat just about every year.
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
Just read that the Super 14 Final is sold out. Are there ANY Chiefs fans that are actualy flying over with tickets?
Ben J said | May 25th 2009 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
Because I will save you the trouble and buy them off you.
ohtani's jacket said | May 26th 2009 @ 12:24am | Report comment
The opening 20 to 25 minutes was Crusaders rugby and they were killing the Bulls in all facets of the game, but the turning point for me was the Ndungane try.
When the Crusaders worked the blindside for Whitelock’s try, there was a real lack of outside pace. The Bulls’ backline movement for Ndungane showed how much better their backs were. I don’t wanna take anything away from the Bulls, who were clearly the better side, but the Crusaders this year were more like the Canterbury ANZC side that the Crusaders of old.
McCaw may or may not be out of form. He hasn’t played a lot of rugby this season and he’s had concussion problems again, which is a bit of a worry, but a lot of Henry’s key guys from last year have struggled with the short off-season.
ohtani's jacket said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:01am | Report comment
Forgot to mention about New Zealand teams and drop goals.
If you remember Carter’s drop goal attempts last year, the answer is very simple — we can’t hit them for shit. Tight games in NZ have long been decided by penalties. The Crusaders have scored the odd drop goal or too, but what’s the most famous All Black drop goal? Probably Zinzan having a lark against the English.
There have been All Blacks capable of hitting drop goals — Clarke, Mehrtens, Fox, Herewini, Bruce, Scott, Hewson, etc., but you’d have to go back a fair way to find a match that was won via a drop goal and there’s never been anything in NZ rugby history like the Boks’ drop goal records. Mehrtens is up there amongst the all-time drop goal scorers in Tests, but a fair whack of those came right at the beginning of his Test career.
I dunno, I always saw it as reflective of some of the similarities in European and South African rugby. Argentina are fond of them too.
Jerry said | May 26th 2009 @ 4:23am | Report comment
OJ – Zinny’s one against the Boks in the second test in 96 was pretty important. It didn’t put the AB’s ahead (a penalty from Preston did that from memory) but it did seal the test and the series.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
All this talk of NZ not knowing what a drop goal is is complete bollocks!
Andrew Mehrtens, anyone remember him, well he still hold the career record of 17.
Funny thing is, he was born in SA but grew up in Christchurch.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
And that is only his super rugby career.
CronullaKiwi said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Yeah would like to see the like sof Carter bring this into their game more often. His one against the boks last year in Dunedin was bloody ugly
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Temba,
Its not a matter of knowing what they are its a matter of NZ teams not using them as much as their SA counterparts. The dropgoal is a integral part of the SA game and when the ball flys as far as it does on the High Veldt its understandable.
The Saffas have mastered the art and full credit to them.
It seems Saffas have gone on the defensive here and seen it as a personal attack on them from the rest of the world. Why only the Saffas can understand.
I don’t and haven’t seen one post where people have said they should be canned but I have read (and also written myself)many posts and articles where people have questioned the value of a drop goal nothing more.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Doesn’t it seem ironic after your last statement that the DG record in super rugby is held by a kiwi?
I’m certainly not on the defence here, ill let you in on a South African secrete… Do you know why we use the drop goal?
It’s to see how much it upsets you guys and you fall for it every time.
There must be 3 posts on this one website where the drop goal is being “discussed”. So it being an Aussie page id say it’s not really a South African insecurity is it now?
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Drop goald records hardly suggest its a South African weapon.
http://stats.scrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=drop_goals;template=results;type=player
Justin said | May 26th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Its the ratio that is the factor though, not how many necessarily. Botha 18 from 28 matches and De Beer 8 from 13 matches. Thats a few pots!
Love stats! You can use them anyway you like
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Yup there you go again on the defensive.
Noones denying that Mehrtens has the drop goal record Temba, see this is where you start to twistr and turn everything to suit your argument.
What I am and many others are saying and you are albeit indirectly confirming with your attitude towards the whole argument. Is that South Africans see the Drop Goal as more important than the rest of the world. The fact also that you seem to have constantly overlooked temba is that the Drop Goal is a huge part of the SA game where it isn’t so much in NZ and Australia.
Noone is saying that they shouldn’t be used actually its quite the contrary, posters such as myself are applauding the Saffas for using the tactic and using it well. I just don’t think its worth as much as it should be. Not that hard a point to take in is it?
Also Temba before getting all defensive how about scrolling up and reading the thread from the start and you will see how far off the mark you are. Noone is attacking SA and their choice to use the DG at all. It seems that is something you have pulled out of thin air.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Hemjay has anyone ever told you that you sound a bit like a broken record?
Again my life is far to exciting to go on defensive over something as trivial as your opinion on 3 point drop goals. I fill the quit moments of my day with your overly excited comments and it puts a smile on my face.
I love how you take things way to serious and go on a rant insulting those who do not see it your way. You’re dislike of SA rugby and/or South Africans shine bright but we still deserve an opinion, even if it’s deferent from yours.
Believe me I am not defensive, I do this for fun, not because the world denies me a real voice. Now calm down, you do have valid points…from time to time. You just need to control your anger whooo saaaa.
Discussing something does not make the situation defensive, unless you feel you are?
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Oh here you go again Temba,
Its a trait of your s that I have noticed even when your replying to others.
You always seem to think that I or anyone else that doesn’t agree with you is insulting you. You also tend to only take what you want out of peoples posts and twist and turn facts to paint your post out to be more valid. When things are pointed out to you which it seems many people are afraid to do as they just get another one of your great tirades on how your post is more valid than the next.
The fact remains Temba you accused me be it directly or indirectly of saying things I never said. Its obvious you have not kept up with the progression of the threads and gone off on a tangent. I have highlighted this to you and you accuse me of a rant.
You have insinuated that I and others have said that South Africa shouldn’t be allowed to use the DG when it is far from the truth. I guess when you go back and read what was actually said you have discovered you had no valid argument in that regard. from as far as I can see I have only been pro SA and their usage of the tactic and highlighted that it is SA who generally uses the tactic and use it well.
I like how you try and paint me out to be aggresive when it is much the opposite go back and have a look son it is you who came out firing not me. But it seems like keith, matt and co you all have one thing in common. You don’t like the fact I have an opinion nor will I sugar coat things for you like mummy does.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
like mummy does? No you don’t insult people sunshine.
I can see it now, you sitting there with an elevated heart beat, swollen red neck with steam coming out of your ears, banging away on a keyboard with discuss that someone is willing to take you on.
You have to remember for me its sticks and stones really, I just laugh and await your next rant.
Please don’t claim everyone posting on the roar is awaiting your next jab and their readiness to support your theories. Your points are often contradicting and erratic.
I think most just read your posting for the comic value, the sweet semi educated self overrated confrontational seeking ways really do add for a bit of fun… especially when I have time to play with you.
Now.. lets have it?
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
And I laugh and wait for yours son.
Keep it comming. Listen to you now your a scholar and a pyschic.
Go home to your hut Temba surely your rand has run out at the internet cafe for the day
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Temba and you thinkl everyone here just loves everything that you write?
Bring it son because I am up for your jeyboard heroism. You are the one who turned this into a personal attack not me. The difference being you don’t like it when it is givin back just like a few others son who resort to your tactics.
I assume roarers would get annoyed by this kind of posting but I also assume they actually read what people say and not twist and turn things to make someone look bad.
Temba said | May 26th 2009 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Hehehe, cought me a marlin!
Hemjay said | May 26th 2009 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
I don’t think on your rand you’d be able to afford a line to catch a Marlin with Temba. Anyway good luck to the Bulls this weekend should be a cracker
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Hemjay – “t is just more backing that the DG is overvalued. DG kickers are routinely booed no matter where they are.”
They are? The drop goal is making a slow but steady comeback in recent seasons in NH rugby – to my mind. It always gets applause from the crowd. Not least the two cracking ones taken at last weekend’s H Cup final – one of them a 50m minimum kick by young fly-half Johnny Sexton of Leinster. I was at the game, and the admiration from around the ground who stood up and applauded was resounding.
I think they’re full value at 3 points – they’re not that easy to get – as N Zealanders will confirm for you – and they require a lot of skill and timing to make sure you get them between the sticks.
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Pothale,
I don’t think they are that hard to get nor do many others and there has been some interesting debate on the subject recently. However you also have missed the point at the top of the thread were I applaud the Boks for using them and using them well. It seems people like yourself are targeting me for simply stating the truth that you have now just confirmed as did Temba in his little tirade that they are more valued up in the North and in SA. I didn’t think that my point was that hard to understand. Everything you are saying I have already said on the matter as have others. My only question being that why should they be worth 3 pts?
I have been to rugby matches all around the world and DGs have been met with a muted response from the team who has taken the chance especially when its missed and booed greatly by the opposition. To me it shows a team is out of ideas. I have never said I didn’t like them or the tactic its just overrated. If I wanted to watch goal scoring I’d much prefer to flick over to the EPL or the AFL where they even get awarded pts for missing goal.
Now don’t take this the wrong way Pot but maybe they fans up north like the Droppie because they don’t actually know what a try is as they are so rarely scored up there. lol
If anything last weeks semi just re-iterates to teams such as the ABs and Wallabies that they need to start using the tactic more themselves. But when they do and are successful I can already see the headlines coming from the North
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Hemjay
You’ve a little chip on your shoulder you need to remove. Cos I ain’t gonna do it for you. Targeting you? Get over yourself.
I took issue with your statement that said drop kicks are routinely booed no matter where they are. You’re wrong. Plain and simple. I watch and attend a lot more matches in NH rugby than you do, and I have rarely witnessed such a response. As my earlier post states – quite the opposite occurs. And if they’re missed, there’s great cheering by the opposition – understandably.
And if you think firing off a 50m drop goal is easy, well that says more about your understanding of the skills required in rugby than I could.
I didn’t miss the point about what you said earlier about applauding the Boks for using them. If anything that statement stands in contradiction to your later statement about them being routinely booed.
Finally, you should check the stats for this year’s S14 to see how many drop-goals were taken and by whom – it might change your point of view.
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Pothale Since when did you become the authority on all things rugby.
I guess you also assume people like myself have never played rugby either?
Its not contradicting at all Pothale in my statement and you will notice if your read back through this thread and others I am not the only one who has mentioned crowds not likeing the tactic.
Maybe Pothale instead of trying to shoot everyone down with your posts you might actually read what has been written.
I never ever denied that NZ or Australia uses them son. What i did say is that they are more widely used by the Boks and the NH teams. I have never said that they shouldn’t use them.
So before having a go Pothale go back and read threads. Because I don’t value them as much as you do and because I applaud the Boks for using them how is this contradictary. I don’t believe they are worth 3pts Pot thats it. I have said and always said while they are worth 3pts teams are stupid not to use them.
So Pot go back and actually read what I have said and stop making up absolute rubbish.
Its a lot harder to score a try than it is to kick a drop goal thats why a try is worth 5pts. But like I said many NH players and fans wouldn’t even know what a try is as they are so rare up there.
i think the only one with a Chip here is you Pothale and it is Southern Hemisphere rugby something you have an obvious disdain for. Ever since joing the roar I have noticed you are constantly thrown shots at the S14 the Tri-Nations and seen many people have taken you to task on your views but it seems only yours and the NH viewpoint is the way to go.
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Hemjay should change his name to broken record.
If the bulls can put a point on the board for each time broken record said “go back and read the posts” then the Chiefs are going to sweat a big one on Sat.
Pothole if you had red the darn posts you would know I have already covered this ground with BRjay!! What are you…stupid son?
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Temba if I had a rand for every time you try to belittle me I would have the grand totally of NZ $2 so this would make me quite wealthy by SA standards would it not?
As for the Chiefs losing oh well thats life, unlike the Bulls they don’t have the expectation to win so who is going to look the worst should they lose the Bulls or the Chiefs?
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
This is very similar to the ELV debate, Australia and NZ make up like %5 of the rugby world but still think that because they have the silver fern in their corner the world should conform to their ways. Britain and in fact Europe largely like to use the drop goal in tight affairs. Add to that South Africa and you have a very large chunk of the rugby playing world. The argies don’t mind popping one over every now and again.
Lowering the score value will see the death of the drop goal, I think it’s perfectly placed.
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
BRjay what a pathetic attempt, don’t belittle South Africa cuz you have beef with me, are you a “chk-chk boom” racist or something?
And drum roll please…
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
But then again many from this side of the world think the drop goal is fine the way it is…
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Oh Im a racist now am I,
I’m not sure how highlighting that your countries money ain’t worth the paper its printed on is racist do explain. Its a sad world when someone terms the fact I made an economic reference racist
Because I don’t rate your countries rugby as highly as you do. Seems its ok for you to insult other people and their countries have a look at your previous posts seems someone doesn’t like being played at his own game.
But typical of someone who is getting some of their own back pull the race card how pathetic
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
How predictable, you are so easy to wind up…
Jerry said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
“So the fatter japie said to the thinner yapie…”
allblackfan said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Temba, Hemjay
This blog is about team tactics in the S14 final.
Insult each other somewhere else.
I wait to contrast the two games this weekend — S14 grand final vs the Lions’ tour opener
allblackfan said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Wait, what I meant to say was:
“I can’t wait to contrast the two games this weekend — S14 grand final vs Lions tour opener”
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Allblackfan, as Mallet pointed out, the Lions should target the scrum as Smit is not the best prop in the world and the lions pack if function will be outstanding. Using JP Pieterson at SB fullback as many are predicting PDV will do is going to give the kicking skill of the lions a massive boost.
Morne Steyn Should be use as fly half because there is no other place kicking option in the team. Ruan Pienaar has only played half the S14 and Francois Steyn is injured (not to mention the worst option at 10)
SA has the talent to bag the lions without effort but dodgy selection and playing tactics by the head coach will open the door for a more even tour.
Rusty said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
allblackfan – Im with you, going to be a pretty bleary eyed evening… might have something to do with the couple of slabs in the fridge..probably not
Temba said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Pienaars place kicking skills arnt the best either, so there is no realy place kicker in the Springbok team if M Steyn is not selected. Lets pray sanaty prevails
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
ABS Fan
I would like to know if the Bulls will have their mind on the game 100% afterall a large portion of their team will surely make the Boks test lineup, Will the fringe players in the squad play harder to make the team and will those near dead certs like Habana and co take it easy as not to injure themselves because you can guarantee most if not all of of them will not be still playing in 12 years when the Lions return in 2021.
Has the hype of the Lions tour had an impact on their preparations and diverted their focus?
I guess we won’t know until Saturday / Sunday morning for those of us in NZ or on the eastern seaboard of the West Isand.
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
The added intensity of a S14 final in the republic will surely add to the spectacle that is the Lions Tour
Rusty said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
its a good point Hemjay but I think the Bulls players will be keen to put their money where their mouth is. if anything its the unheralded players like Stegmann that are doing the business for them
van der Merwe said | May 27th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Temba, Smit’s conversion to tight head has been superb. The Sharks scrum was the best in the Super 14.
Pietersen at full back? I’ve heard talk about Snor attempting to nudge Jaque Fourie in that direction, as well. Don’t ask me what’s wrong with Terblanche. In any case, I’m convinced that he’s going to go with Kirchner. Which means that we could potentially have a newly capped 10 and 15 debuting against the Lions…
.
Rusty said | May 27th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
vdm – Im not that convinced on Smit yet its about 50/50 which is about the time it gels for him at TH. Its going to depend alot on Bakkies shoulders
As for Steyn and Kirchner – if you were going for new caps then at least we are getting inform players who have just climbed the summit of the toughest rugby comp in the world playing the best players. (I add yet to plant the flag but they are there). God forbid we see Rose at 15 although I wouldnt put money against it