By Spiro Zavos
May 28th 2009 @ 1:44am
Related coverage
The Bulls are bullish about defeating the Chiefs
Bulls' Fourie du Preez looks for support as he is tackled by the Chiefs' Stephen Donald during the Super 14 rugby match at the International Stadium in Rotorua, New Zealand, Saturday, March 22, 2008. AP Photo/NZPA, John Cowpland
The French talk about the after-match discussion as the “third half.” It really should be the fourth half, with the pre-match discussion the first half. Where the fourth half discussion is at least based on known facts, the first half pre-match discussion is a talkfest on what Donald Rumsfeld would call “unknown fact.”
And that is the thrill of talking about whether the Bulls will defeat the Chiefs to win their second Super 14 title in three years. Until the match is over, we can all be right, no matter what opinion we offer.
In an attempt, perhaps, to give a little ballast to the unknown facts, the ARU has issued an media release which previews The Final (as it calls it).
Here are some of the intriguing facts from that media release.
The Bulls and the Chiefs are contesting the right to be the fourteenth Super Rugby champion in the fifteenth match between the two teams. All but three of these contests have been determined by twelve or fewer points.
The Chiefs loss to the Bulls in the round-robin part of the tournament is their only loss in the last eleven matches.
The Chiefs have won just four of their last sixteen matches in South Africa.
The Bulls are unbeaten in their last ten matches at Loftus Versfeld.
The Bulls have 21 wins, fourteen losses and two draws from 37 home matches against New Zealand teams.
They have scored 25 of their 40 tries this season at Loftus Versfeld.
Twelve members of the current Bulls team played in the winning final in 2007.
The Chiefs are the last of the New Zealand teams to play in a Super Rugby final.
The last six Super Rugby finals have been determined by ten points or less.
The Bulls’ 20-19 victory over the Sharks in 2007 is the most recent of only three cases where the top qualifier has been defeated at home in a final.
Morne Steyn has scored 172 points this year (and ten drop goals), a record for the Bulls.
Stephen Donald has scored 132 points this season, his second highest total in Super rugby behind the 164 points he scored in 2007.
And what happens if scores are tied at the end of the match? There will be 20 minutes of extra time, with ten minutes each way. Injury time will be added to the extra time.
If the scores are still tied, the two teams will be declared joint winners.
With Sitiveni Sivivatu out injured, with the Chiefs having to travel from Hamilton to Pretoria, and with the Bulls playing so splendidly against the Crusaders, South Africans are convinced, bullish in fact, about a Bulls victory.
Even the New Zealand rugby writers, normally so up for their team, can’t see a Chiefs victory.
Finally, there is the bizarre decision (taken presumably by SANZAR’s referee organiser Andre Watson) to allow South African officials to referee the match, with Jonathan Kaplan being the field referee.
During the period of the first half discussion, all these these facts may be put in the category of the “unknown.” But there is too much of a bias towards the Bulls chances to be discounted.
If you were a betting man you’d have to put your money on the bullish Bulls trampling the Chiefs.
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Brett McKay said | May 28th 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
What, no drop goal shoot-out?!?!
Also Spiro, what did the ARU release mean by “The Chiefs are the last of the New Zealand teams to play in a Super Rugby final.”??
What about the Crusaders last year??
Spiro Zavos said | May 28th 2009 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Brett, they meant that the Chiefs are the last New Zealand franchise to play in a final. In other words, all the other New Zealandf franchises have been in a final, except the Chiefs until now.
The ARU review did mention Morne Steyn’s record four field goals last Saturday against the Crusaders. But I thought that they we’d had enough first half discussion of this way of scoring and it was time to get on to other issues like the difficulty of a side trying to beat the round-robin winners on their home ground in the final.
Brett McKay said | May 28th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
ah right, yeah that makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation Spiro – That’s actually a pretty fair achievement, to have had all five teams now in a final. I couldn’t even guess how long it will be before all four (or five) Australian teams play in a final, and with all due respect, I’d imagine it will be even longer for South Africa..
fred said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
spiro ;precompetition,competition,refocusing within competition and evaluation..and GATES wants his military graduates to question conformity so im suggesting the 5th half could be the longest
Mark said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Spiro, I still think tehy’ll find the Chiefs a step up to the Crusaders & I’m picking the Chiefs. They’re the equal of the Crusaders in the forwards & far superior in teh backs. The Crusaders had no real strike power in the backs but still ran the Bulls close (especially if Waldron hadn’t got 10 for not rolling away).
Lets just hope that it’s another great game like teh semis were, & that there’s no silly yellows that cost one team the match such as in the Chiefs vs. Canes semi.
Rusty said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
For the record – as Im big on facts
The country final appearance / wins are as follows (not taking into account 09)
Country Wins/Runner-up
New Zealand 10/5
Australia 2/5
South Africa 1/3
Team Wins/Runner-up
Crusaders 7/2
Blues 3/1
Brumbies 2/3
Bulls 1/0
Sharks 0/3
Waratahs 0/2
Highlanders 0/1
Hurricanes 0/1
Small consolation but interestingly enough in the super 12 every franchise from each country made the final 4 at some stage
1996 – Blues, Sharks, Reds, Bulls
1997 – Brumbies, Hurricanes
1998 – Crusaders, Highlanders
1999 – Stormers
2000 – Cats
2002 – Waratahs
2004 – Chiefs
The Super 14 obviously hasnt been running as long but again shows the dominance by NZ teams with only the Highlanders not making the final cut. SA having 2 teams and Australia one, which could point to the dilution of quality players across the new franchises in the S14 format.
2006 – Crusaders, Hurricanes, Waratahs, Bulls
2007 – Sharks, Blues
2008 – no change
2009 – Chiefs
Mayb it is that NZ is the only country to have not diluted their player base through expansion? Again, incredible the number of talented individuals brought through. As such I expect it to take longer for those countries who have, to have teams making their finals appearances. Statistically, South Africa has had to expand its quality player base by 20% and Australia by 25% (not saying the up and comers arent quality but you get what I mean) . With an additional 5th team that means in Australia a 40% expansion in 5 years! Pretty incredible really to develop a player based from top 66 to 110 players. You wouldnt expect instant success over night, although what I think will happen is quality players will flock to the powerhouse teams as is being seen with the Brumbies for next year and to a lesser extent the Tahs. In South Africa, the Sharks, Bulls and to a lesser extent Stormers. The teams on the outside will struggle until the flow reverses or equalises.
Think thats a bit of a tangent for the morning but then I havent had my trillionth coffee yet
Rusty said | May 28th 2009 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Oh and for the record – I think of the semi finalist matchups the Bulls were probably hoping for a Canes win as I think the Chiefs less structured broken play bothers them more. It will be closer than expected but Bulls to win by 5 surprise surprise through astute use of the boot. Their field kicking has been immense and will keep the Chiefs on the wrong side of the field although if their is any team who can score from anywhere it is the Chiefs but without Sivi they will have lost their best proponent of this type of attack.
Mark said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Rusty, Donald’s positional kicking is better than the Canes 1st 5 so i wouldn’t take Bulls field kicking dominance as a given.
Rusty said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
very valid point Mark but the advantage the Bulls have is that being at home they know exactly how far and where to kick it
Hammer said | May 28th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Rusty – don’t discount the vastly under-rated Calum Bruce in the kicking stakes also … Bruce is the quiet achiever in that backline – think Fox put it well in one commentary – he’s the glue that hold the backline together …
Donald and Bruce combine well and can counter the Bulls kicking game
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
The Bulls are a good team they are not a great team. If anything this years competition has shown how close the teams are within each other. Since when have we had a final week like this season where up to 7 teams 50% of all involved had a realistic chance of making the finals?
I think that the Bulls fans why they have every right to be confident they are running the risk of doing the Ricky (Stuart). Being too confident and already popping the champaigne before the match has even started. It seems a few of us have forgotten that at the end of the regular season the Bulls and Chiefs were equal on pts for, the biggest difference was that the Chiefs had a superior defensive record.
I have mentioned this in another thread but does anyone else think that the arrival of the Lions and the huge hype that goes with it may have got to the Bulls not only do they have the expectation of 40million plus nutty South African supporters they also have the added pressure of showing the Lions how tough SA rugby really is. Imagine the pyschological blow to the SA ego should they lose a final at home while the Lions are on the sidelines?
It is a no brainer that a large chunk of this Bulls team will make the Boks test team and it brings into question how hard the Bulls will play and what kind of mindset they will have going into the match?
Will they go all out to show the Lions a thing or two?
Will they conserve themselves to play the tests?
Will they be cautious of injury as it will be another 12 years before the Best of four nations comes back again and you can near absolutely guarantee none of the current players will be there in a playing capacity in 2021.
The expectation and pressure is largely in the Bulls quarters it seems noone is giving the Chiefs a chance. The Chiefs I’m sure will be loving this as it takes alot of the pressure of them.
Their biggest worry I think will be negating the influence of Steyn(he did score 21pts last week) 50, 000 Bulls suporters and the South African Referee.
It will be a tight game and my head tells me the Bulls to win.
But being a Kiwi I have to go with my countrymen they have nothing to lose where else the Bulls have everything to lose they hold all the cards lets see if they now how to play them.
Greg Russell said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Two comments:
1. “The last six Super Rugby finals have been determined by ten points or less.”
As many of you know, I am an advocate of statistics. But this is one of those statistics that is misleading. Of the last 6 finals, I would say that only two – Blues-Crusaders 2003 and Sharks-Bulls 2007 – have been close in the sense that one really had any doubts as to who would win going into the last 20 minutes. Take Brumbies-Crusaders in 2004. That was the match which the Brumbies had won after the first 20 minutes, in which they scored try after try. The fact that the Crusaders scored a series of consolation tries over the rest of the match does not mean that the result was in doubt! I know that NSW supporters will say that NSW was right in the finals of 2005 and 2008, but if they took the eye-patches off they would see that only one team was ever going to win those finals.
2. There is only one thing I have seen this week that has genuinely given me cause to pause and think “The Chiefs have a chance”. It is this from their coach:
“”I think it’s probably an advantage for both teams that we have played each other recently at the same location,” Foster said. “We both will have learnt a lot from that game. They came out on top of that one but we feel we have grown in some areas since then.”"
Of course he cleverly says “both teams” here, but the reality is that it’s a huge advantage for the Chiefs that they had a full dress rehearsal for this final just a few weeks ago.
Of course on balance I still favour the Bulls, but if the Chiefs do cause an upset, it’s the above words that I’ll think of first.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Hemjay the Bulls are a very professional outfit. Trust me the only focus they have this week is to get to Loftus and play in a S14 final in front of a sold-out crowd. The company “the Bulls” is a very wealthy probably the wealthiest in the competition, you don’t reach this stage by running it like a bunch of dreamers. I am sure there will be thoughts in minds on selection and injury but all will be forgotten when they run out onto 50K Loftus for the S14 final and the adrenalin starts pumping.
If the Chiefs bring their “A” game then they have a solid chance but it’s hard to bring your “A” game in a place like Loftus. AND if the Bulls bring their “A” game then god only knows what will happen. The two best teams are playing, the bulls have been more consistent so deserve home ground advantage.
The Bulls are a great team, many forget that the 07 coaching team (Mayer and Co) that led them to S14 glory are no longer and this is their second year with the new management not bad to make the final.
I have not made a single perdition about the game, it’s a little superstition I have but ill agree that some are to confidant. Ill bet everything I have that the team is not over confidant. They have been here before and have show spirit on multiple occasions this season to come back from behind.
Expect a tight but great game.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Greg I am sure coach Ludeke feels the same way but knows last time they met he was the smarter coach… A coach is always positive, that’s his job.
I am sure if the Chiefs pull it off Ill think back to that line too.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Who gives two hoots if they are the wealthiest club Temba two finals appearances in 14 years says alot that money doesn’t buy championships.
The Bulls are along way from a great team are you trying to put them in the same class as the Crusaders of 2002 who went undefeated and have featured in 11 finals series played in 9 finals and won 7?
The Bulls are good they are far from great. I very much doubt that the Bulls if they had lost as much talent as the Crusaders had this year that they would’ve made the finals once again proving how great a team the Crusaders are.
Auckland as shite as they were this year still rate above the Bulls with 3 titles from 5 finals series.
This match was robbed of being a fair contest the minute all the Safas were appointed as match officials.
If the Bulls lose this game it will have to be the almightiest choke in rugby history. Home Final home crowd home officials.
Temba noone gives the Chiefs a chance and everyone bar one eyed fans like yourself know this years competition was not as strong as previous years, while a good team this team of yours is far from great. Great teams don’t get spanked by a team who finishes in the bottom four no matter where the are in the world.
You see if the Bulls win it will be as expected any other result will send the media and fans into overdrive.
Lets just Hope I don’t have to rename you Stuart come Sunday.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Calm down Hemjay I was trying to make for good discussion, I even agreed with you. Am I allowed to comment on this site without you chomping my head off?
The Bulls aren’t legends yet but the are certainly a great team. This is my opinion and many others. You can bring up stats from when ape men wondered the planet, its not going to change what is happening in the now.
2nd title in 3 years if they win it… it’s not bad. I know you hate them, you have repeatedly state that “they are good but not great”. I am sure everyone has heard it by now. I feel like talking about Rugby, take your nasty arguments to another website.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
The bulls won the honour and advantage to play at home by being the better team this season so far, no one can’t take it away from them. The bulls did not select the ref, SANZAR did. Home crowds are normally located at home final and/or venue, so cant really see the point in mentioning both.
Kaplan selection could work against the Bulls too.
I predict a solid outing for him, let’s not judge him before he has done his job.
ohtani's jacket said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Greg,
I don’t think that’s an entirely accurate account of the 2004 final. The Crusaders mounted the mother of all comeback attempts in that final. Even when Roff sealed it, they still kept attacking. The only consolation try was the one Carter scored after full time. The Crusaders only really had a glimmer of hope with 20 minutes to play, but people were so impressed with their fightback that Mehrtens earnt an ill-fated recall to the All Blacks.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Id say the biggest problem for the Chiefs is the line out, this is where Matfield and co will focus and if they can stop the Chiefs first 20 min attack and perhaps put some points on the board they will open up and put the nail in the coffin.
That or the Chiefs score early tries force the Bulls to play expansive catch-up rugby and then look to out run the bulls out wide. The Chiefs will need to neutralize Matfield and Steyn. How will they do this… I certainly don’t know.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Ah Temba,
Try the Crusaders three titles in a row the Blues two titles in a row. The Crusaders since super 14 come to fruition also have already won two titles in three years with the added extra of featuring in every single Super 14 finals series.
I’m not chomping your head off at all Temba just need to give you a taste of reality your getting carried away with your one eyed patriotism son. Just pull it in a little your Bulls are not doing anything that hasn’t been done before.
As for earning their home final yourright but they did it amongst much controversy and we could argue all night long but there’s no point.
As for your pathetic attempt to be funny Temba what I was alluding to is that everything is stacked highly in the Bulls favour and anything but a win will be an almighty choke. If they win its expected, should they lose it will have to be the biggest choke in history. From all the self promoting hype from the Bulls and SA it would be very hard not to come to any other conclusion.
Once again the Bulls are a good team and should win.
Just don’t start counting your chickens before they hatch son
Now how in any way is this being nasty please explain to me?
There is nothing nasty about my comments Temba it just is downright plain obvious you will not accept someone not rating your team as highly as you do. Get a grip son like you say above this is a opinion column buddy.
stuff happens said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
If the Chiefs win this it will be one great achievement; but, I think unlikely.
I still don’t understand why they can’t have two weeks grace before a S14 final to help the travelling team.As it is the Chiefs have a ten hour time change in six days and a match on the veldt with a SA referee.??!!
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
I would not start talking about mighty chokes if I were you. All your facts are based on the 14 years and are correct but I am talking about the now. I don’t need to pull it mate you don’t have the qwa to make a demand like that. I am being pleasant and trying to discuss the game. Your opinion has been noted.
Do you have anything to add that you have not said over and over before? What do you think of my game plan mentioned above?
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Totally and completely all SA officials, like Temba says it is SANZAR who appoints this but it is surely questionable. I wonder how much noise would’ve been coming out of the Republic or Australia had this been a NZ final with all NZ refs?
I think SANZAR has put their integrity on the line here its a huge call to make.
Will they be extra harsh on the Bulls as not to give the impression of favouring their home team?
Or will they make calls in favour of the Bulls and effectively whistle the Chiefs out of the game completely?
The South Africans have had to deal with the travel for years so I guess everyone else has to deal with it and in some ways it does give teams the insight into what they have to deal with.
But isn’t it ironic that certain teams are allowed to moan about travel but others aren’t?
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Stop Steyn from taking the DG would be the first step on the road to winning this game. Force the Bulls to play a running game this is where mistakes are made.
The Chiefs have the better defensive record so I think they will rate their chances of attacking at will. The Chiefs lineout does have serious issues but their forward pack is highly underrated.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Aled de Melmanche named in the ABs wider training squad come Sunday.
The backs are an even split and it will be a tight affair.
Rusty said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
The only irony in the travel moaning is that South Africa has been doing it forever so another team doing it once hasnt “earnt” the right yet. In the same way as the Bulls are a great team but not as great as the Saders, Blues and Brumbies past until they have earnt as many titles
Hammer said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
As a kiwi hoping for a Chiefs final victory – I’m more than happy with the officials …
what’s the alternative – all Aussies with Dickinson in charge and Goddard and Marks on the line … FFS no thanks – one thing this game does not need is a Dickinson mess backed up by two incompetent sidekicks …
Kaplin is one of the few who I believe will be able to handle the crowd pressure … Lawrence did an ok job last weekend but I reckon the crowd got to him a bit in the end … esp when the penalty / free kick count against the Bulls really took off early in the first half … he started to ease off a bit and gave them a bit more latitude … I can’t see Kaplin letting it effect him as much …
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
No team in my opinion can be called great until they go through a season undefeated and win 3 titles if not more on the trot.
They are a good team great not even close.
I hope like hell for the Bulls sake they do win because I would hate to be on the receiving end of the backlash that would occur.
Rusty, Temba in all honesty what kind of reaction would you expect should the Bulls lose the unloseable?
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Actually heres one for the lads.
If the Bulls are great and the Chiefs beat them what would this make the Chiefs?
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Its will be upsetting to say the least Hemjay but for the Chiefs to achieve that it will have to be one hell of a match! I don’t think it’s as easy for the bulls as many make out. Sure they have all the favour but when its kick off, its who ever brings the best game on the day.
As you have pointed out before the comp has been very close with even sides like the reds and the lions putting big scores on top level teams. So in this way I say its who ever comes to game day with game.
If we go back to February most would not have agreed that the Bulls would be in the final and finished top of the log, so its not all disappointment. I suppose the 50 000 people in blue at Loftus would feel robbed most.
Anyways as said before too, the Lions are in town, that at least will divert the attention from a home final loss.
re last post, if the Chiefs go against the odds and beat them it makes them a great team too. I dont claim the bulls are the greatest of all time but I think they have shown in the last couple of years that they can roll with the greats.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Lets start talking greats when the Bulls have at least half of the accolades that the Crusaders as it stands they have half as many titles as the Brumbies and one third the titles of the Blues.
Where the SA national team could be classed as great the Bulls are still way of the mark. If they can secure the championship I’ll say they have the base to make a great team. But look what happened to the Blues all those years ago, very successful then faded away.
Your right about the Lions tour being able to help divert some of the attention away should the unlikely event of a lose occur but what makes you think they won’t spin it into Titanic proportions. After experiencing the Lions media machine of 05 Temba noone could avoid it. Temba I’d be very cautious it won’t be long before the Lions PR people find something to blow completely out of proportion like they always do and a lose in a S14 final would be a gold mine for them.
Actually I’m sure their PR team goes out of their way to spin something to divert the attention away from their own performances.
Lets hope like hell its a close and fair final without any dubious calls or ugly incidents.
P.s Boks 3-0 for the series this Lions doesn’t look that hot as is being made out and I would have to agree with Smit that this years crop of Springboks look a little more confident than those from 07.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
I am a little scared to comment on the 3-0 lions defeat, yes the talent is plenty in SA but there is one man that can blow it all away and that’s the coach. PDV’s selection just does not add up.
E Rose; J Nokwe, M Newman, M Bosman, O Ndungane; P Grant, R Januarie; T Mtawarira, B du Plessis, J Smit (captain), J Muller, A Bekker, H Brüssow, J Deysel, R Kankowski.
January has done nothing this season, Rose is the biggest joke in SA rugby, Newman is unheard of and warmed the bench 99% of the season. Add to that one dimensional Grant and you only have one person to smile about in the back line and it’s a wing. Ill be surprised if Nokwe gets his hand on the ball.
Rose and Newman are no-bodies and playing out of position to boot. Expect Derick Hougard to kick the hell out of the back three, he will be smiling when he reads the paper this morning. This Namibian team is no joke, they have some solid player’s imagine the boks and the Bulls lose sure games this weekend.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Yemba in all fairness the Bok team that is lining up against the Namibian team isn’t the Bok team that will line up against the Lions in 3 weeks. How many of this Bulls team will line up come that first encounter. I wouldn’t sweat to much I think the Bok boys will do it sweet. Its a pity that the NZ Maori didn’t get up there to play the warm up. Out of all the teams playing Springboks aside which team do you think will have the best chance of beating the Brits and Irish?
If I go back to 2005 some of the smaller unions such as Southland and Taranaki gave the Lions a real fright for a large portion of the game both of these unions only having populations of 100,000 people which while they both lost it does put it into perspective a little what they were up against
Rusty said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
it would make the Chiefs the winners!
and if the Bulls win it will make them 4th on the podium of greatness after the Saders, Blues and Brumbies. Technically you could argue the Brumbies and Bulls would have the same number of wins but the Brumbies of ‘01-’04 were with 2 wins and 2 runnersup a very very classy outfit. It remains to be seen if the Bulls “dynasty” begins this weekend or even continues when the senior backbone of the team departs overseas after the Lions tour. After all, how many more medals can you get in the SH? World Cup win, Tri Nations win, Super 14 win, Currie Cup win & possibly a Lions series….
Ed said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
Temba, PDV is just trying to have a look at players he thinks might have potential who he didn’t get to see much of this season. The final 15 will look very different.
Who knows, maybe he has spotted something in Newman that you all haven’t? Though I do struggle to believe it… I’m always vaguely optimistic, for the sake of south africa, that he may actually be a good coach underneath all his craziness.
Temba said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Here is my bok team for Lions
T Mtawarira, Jannie Duplessis
B du Plessis, Smit can cover here
J Smit (captain),
Matfield
Botha/Bekker,
H Brüssow, Bench Burger
Juan Smith,
Spies/R Kankowski.
Du Preez, he is the best, Vermaak as backup, cant stand Kockheads attitude.
Morne Steyn/Pienaar bench
Habbana / Nokwe
Jean Devieliers / Bench Waynand Olievier
Fourie no doubt
JP Pieterson
Zane Kirchner
Sure PDV is playing around with new talent but there are far more talented young players to test with then ROSE!!!
I hope for my sake you are right.
chris, syd Aust said | May 28th 2009 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Off Topic – but does anyone know where and how we can watch the England Vs Barbarians game this saturday.
I have found it in the sky sports (uk) tv guide starting at 1:15am.
i cant see it on the Setanta guide either. If anyone has ideas please let me know.
Cheers
Sam Taulelei said | May 28th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Hemjay
I thought the Brumbies sides that won their two titles were great teams. Even the Crusaders of 1998 – 2000 weren’t great teams in terms of dominance during the regular season. Those three consecutive titles were a great and unprecedented achievement (especially since they were all away from home) but the Blues were the better performing team during 1998, the Highlanders in 1999 and the Brumbies in 2000. It wasn’t until their all conquering season in 2002 and the manner in which it was achieved that you could say that the Crusaders were a great team. Where teams will always struggle in comparison against the Crusaders is their sheer consistency, but other sides throughout the years do qualify to being called a great team based upon their performances throughout the year.
It’s very similar in respects to how the All Blacks are the most consistent team in world rugby and are the benchmark for other teams, but not every All Black team that’s taken the field could be called great.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Yes Sam they can be
But in a year where the competition far from hit the heights of previous years and the competition ladder was so log jammed are you trying to tell me that the Bulls have emerged as a truly great team?
I find it astounding that they only people who are calling this Bulls team great are Bulls supporters. To be great they needed to do alot more than have one more win than their peers top the ladder by a solitary pt. Have a poorer defensive record than the second place team. Not to mention got an absolute drubbing by a team that finished 11th.
So yes Sam a team can be classed as great but this years Bull team is far from great. They are a solid outfit but they are not a great outfit, Great teams don’t get humiliated like the Bulls were in Palmerston North. Great teams stamp their authority at times the Bulls barely scraped by and at times when they did get past it was amid controversy.
All credit to the Bulls getting where they are however I don’t hear or see anyone else calling them great except their own fans and media.
Sam Taulelei said | May 28th 2009 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
No I agree, I don’t think any team this year could be called great, there hasn’t been a true dominant side like in previous years. However I was merely refuting your point in an earlier post – “No team in my opinion can be called great until they go through a season undefeated and win 3 titles if not more on the trot.”
Realise it is your opinion and your personal definition of greatness, I beg to differ that’s all.
Hemjay said | May 28th 2009 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
Fair enough Sam
I just find that the term great is thrown around a little too loosely here
ohtani's jacket said | May 28th 2009 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
What does it matter whether they’re a great side? The Chiefs and the Bulls have been the two best sides in the competition this year and if the Bulls win the title it’ll be their second in three years. Any side would be happy with that. The only question mark I have over this Bulls side is whether they could do it on the road, but I guess they did that in 2007.
Loftus said | May 29th 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Hemjay,how many times have you said the Bulls are a good team but not great? We all read it the 1st time but didn t feel to respond to petty arguments. Like an 8 year old crying that his dad is the strongest! I personally think if this Bulls team win the Super 14 for the second time in three years they will qualify as a great team.Remember, the bulk of the World Champions consisted out of these Bulls as well.You might think what you want but to us Bull supporters this team is special.Hopefully you and your anti Bulls brigade will see on Saturday what us Bulls supporters see in this team.They have character and a fighting spirit that used to be an integral part of the Crusaders’ legacy.Temba, I look your Springbok team,mine is exactly the same.Let s hope for a good final.Just for the record , referee Jonathan Kaplan,is definately not the Bulls’ favourite referee.Everyone in SA know this.The Bulls are just as unhappy that he referees the game, I can assure all of you.Funny that,when a Kiwi ref blowed in the semi against the Crusaders,I cant remember the South Africans whining about it like you kiwis.Some things never change hey? I will be absolutely shocked if the Bulls don t win by at least 12 – I’m not big headed, I’m just confident in my team.
Mark said | May 29th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Loftus – I’d be more than happy with 2 wins from 3 years as Bulls supporter, can we agree on an excellent team ! It would make tehm 4th on teh ladder after the Crusaders/Blues/Brumbies based on Rusty’s stats. Now all of those teams were special teams in my mind. If they then go & win again next year then they’ll be in the same lague.
Although I think you’re being premature, my pick is Chiefs by 10.
OJ – On the road is irrelevant, they won enough games on the road to get a home final.
Mark said | May 29th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
I really nuud to gut a spulchucker