By Steve Kaless
June 15th 2009 @ 7:28am
Related coverage
An open letter to Sonny Bill Williams
Sonny Bill Williams in action in Rugby League, Boxing and Union
Dear Sonny Bill, or perhaps that should be Bonjour! I’m writing to you to congratulate you on achieving what your manager Khoder Nassar proclaimed was your goal when you left rugby league: to “transcend sport”.
Judging by the papers I think we can down tools and say ‘job well done.’
The single minded obsession that burdens most top athletes in the pursuit of their dreams clearly isn’t for you, conquering one sport is just so passé.
I mean you smashed rugby league, one Grand Final victory (off the bench) and seven test matches! Talk about the stuff dreams are made of. Have they been in touch with you about becoming an immortal yet?
Boxing. Done and done. Undefeated. Cop that Mohammed Ali.
Sure the bloke that was handed picked to fight you turned out he may struggle to ward off a couple of teenage girls in a battle over the last copy of “High School Musical” but it showed in the sweet science a Phd is ready and waiting.
Then there is rugby union, wow, no relegation for you in France and then in the Barbarians match you stepped inside Stirling Mortlock! JONAH LOMU!! They screamed from the press box. Let’s put the big red tick in that box.
So where to now?
Well four weeks ago it was that boxing may be the way forward, three weeks ago the All Blacks were the dream, two weeks ago you declared that thanks to good old Gran you could pull on the golden jersey of the Wallabies and now low and behold you wouldn’t rule out a return to the Bulldogs.
A cynic may ask if you have been tested for ADHD, but your manager would say you can do whatever you want (as long as he can get his 15 percent…bro).
All the while though, you have been keen to point out that you have a contract in France that has a way to run yet. And we all know how much you value those.
But I think you have severely limited yourself by only focusing on the above sports so far.
It must be time to spread your wings.
I mean sure the Bulldogs fans would love to see you back. It has been a nightmare for the club this year without you, but surely it is time for a change.
What about AFL.
I mean come on, you have been to Melbourne, walked past the MCG. Surely that it is option. Judging by the fact that nearly every photo of you is taken inside Choc Mundine’s Boxa café you would fit right in to Melbourne society.
So how about dropping the line that you have seriously been thinking about picking up the Sherrin.
The A-League!
Come on Sonny it is time to put the SBW into Sydney FC. Talk about marquee player! They even play in Wellington.
I reckon we get Danny Wielder to finally write that exclusive about you doing some one-on-one drills with Zinedine Zidane and Thierry Henry in France and get him to get a few quotes from inside the camp that an insider has been “very, very impressed with your skills and that clearly you have the commitment to make it in that game.”
Toot! Toot! Hear that, we are off to the World Cup baby, jump on board, we can’t let all those blokes in the actual team get all the headlines. “Sonny for Socceroos!” – it writes itself.
So come on Sonny, let’s get fair dinkum about getting the initials SBW world wide. I want WWSBW on everyone’s lips by the time the year is out.
Once we have got the football codes of Australia knocked over, two down two to go, we might just have enough time to get ready for the Winter Olympics.
Bring on the luge!
Cheers
Steve
Going to the Waratahs v Brumbies blockbuster at ANZ Stadium, Saturday 24 April? If you're keen to meet up with other Roarers, register you interest and we'll keep you informed on the place to meet. Register now.
Get Australia's best Rugby opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(211)
Brett McKay said | June 15th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Steve, I get the impression that, very subtly, you might just be taking the piss…
Karlos said | June 15th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
that is hilarious!
job well done!
bulldog said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
grow up Steve and invest some time in real sports journalism
AGO74 said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
A very enjoyable read! – and it wouldn’t be an SBW article without a Danny Weidler reference!
Gatesy said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
..I thought we’d all moved on?!
LeftArmSpinner said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Not that funny. Just the same joke repeated, and an old one at that and a week late to boot, (excuse the pun). I for one, had never heard the “transcend” comment, but had I, I would have filed it in the bin immediately. Sadly, Steve, you seem to have taken KN comments as being attempts at the truth. For Heaven’s sake, he is Mundine’s Boxing manager/promoter. The truth went out the window on day one!!!!
eric said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Not funny, shallow. We all know SBW struggles between the ears at times and has made ill-advised decisions, but I think he might be a bit more fair dinkum than the bloke who wrote the article.
Billy McClure said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Get SBW in as Goalkeeper
Leonidas said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Lol@Sonny for Socceroos! nice one Steve
when it come to SBW anything is possible
old goalie said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
typical jealousy by a hack who isn’t fit to tie SBW’s bootlaces.
Where’s the harm in a young, extra-ordinarily gifted athlete expressing himself?
Millster said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Leonidas – I’d pick him over Brett Holman (…then again I’d also pick my 6yo daughter over Brett Holman)
Dan said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
A mild laugh… my opinions lie in between most people here; I didn’t find your article abhorrant, but I also think Williams actually deserves a bit of respect. The kid never talks himself up, he just goes about his business and always gives his best. Did anyone hear him interviewed before the Baabaas match? Not an ounce of arrogance, all he ever said was that he knew he had a lot to learn but appreciated the opportunity and would give it his best.
Leonidas said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Millster – I have no idea who Brett Holman is but if ur 6yr old daughter gets the node before him that all I need to know
he must be that bad
Central North said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:42am | Report comment
The Telegraph takes the p155 out of SBW because they know the controversy surrounding him sells papers.
The Herald writes fluff pieces about SBW because they know he’s a controversial figure, and controversial figures sell papers.
Selling papers = advertising dollars. Advertising dollars = more money for Rupert’s evil empire or the seemingly sinking Fairfax ship.
Steve.. what’s your excuse???
Mick of Newie said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
SBW does not get me fired up like some but I heard him interviewed on ABC radio last night (not a sport program) and it was fascinating. His manager should ban him from doing live stuff (strict ration of pre recorded interviews with Danny Wiedler only). His attemps at rationalising his decisions were weak and I was left with the overwhelming impression that he left because he felt like it and there was a pot of gold. Both perfectly good reasons but why not say them.
He jumped in with both feet on Paul Gallen’s racism but backed right off on league’s attitudes to women. The interviewer nailed him on the toliet incident and he admitted he was sorry for the embarressment to his family and the loss of income through sponsorships, blamed alcohol (just finished pre season without grog). When pressed on whether he would apolgise to the woman involved he said he hadn’t made any attepmt to but he would “if he bumped into her in the street.” (does any of this sound familiar)
Left the impression that this man of principles is selective in his moral causes.
Mike said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:54am | Report comment
I thought it was an amusing article – SBW’s minders do spin some large ones in order to attract attention to anyone in their stable, and they deserve to have the p*ss taken out of them!
Fortunately, SBW himself seems to have his feet on the ground. His comments after the Barbarians match were realistic. For good or ill, he has decided to make his way in Rugby, and he will have his work cut out making the grade – even allowing for his obvious and considerable talent. Toulon has been a good introduction to the code for him, but I think he needs something more intense now – maybe a better French side, or maybe Super 15. But he better have his injury rate sorted out – a Super 15 side won’t be as tolerant of his down-time as were the Bulldogs.
Gerry Faehrmann said | June 15th 2009 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Sonny Bill wouldn’t rate with the Bulldogs now!
Funny thing is the Bulldogs have bought really well with money to spare. Sonny Bill can get nicked as far as most Bulldogs fans go!
Mike said | June 15th 2009 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Yes, it hasn’t been pleasant for Leaguies to be on the receiving end of poaching, the way they used to poach union players!
If it were just Australian rugby, League wouldn’t have to be so worried – the professional rugby pot in Australia is so small, that there would only be a few players moving over to Union. Plus its always harder to move from a less complex game to a more complex one.
But the increase in Rugby’s popularity in wealthy countries like France and Japan has changed everything. There is a genuine (and well paying) alternative for talented young League players (or talented old ones who burn too many bridges in League).
Hen said | June 15th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Steve,
I don’t have a strong opinion either way with regards to SBW – but all I saw in this article were cheap shots and lazy journalism.
I expect much much more from an article on this site.
NickF said | June 15th 2009 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
There certainly are some sourpusses who read and post on this website.
Bulldog – Cheer up, join in and have a bit of fun.
Gatesy – If we’d all moved on, why did you read this article?
LeftArmSpinner – No, not THAT funny, but so what, I smiled, especially about the Danny Wiedler part.
eric – you can’t possibly call the whole SBW Circus “fair dinkum”, fair shake of the sauce bottle.
old goalie – I didn’t know I’d have to be fit to tie SBWs boot laces, I’d better get in training. “Where’s the harm in a young, extra-ordinarily gifted athlete expressing himself?”, What the harm in having some fun?
Dan – Maybe, but I think Koda N. and Danny W. need to be singled out for their effort. And as for channel 7s “Sonny Bill’s Barbarians v The Wallabies”. have a go at them instead.
Central North – I don’t think Steve needs an excuse.
If the article is incorrect, then correct it. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
We have enough crap in this world without all the above putting more crap in it.
Thanks Steve, I enjoyed it, but you forgot to suggest the WWE.
NickF
Spencer said | June 15th 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Yawn…… Don’t you have a proper job to go to?
MarkH said | June 15th 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Steve you sound like an angry ex girlfriend. Still cant let him go?
Gerry Faehrmann said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
NickF – Sorry mate, Point Taken!
The Link said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
Mike – Rugby in Aus and NZ faces just as big a threat to cashed up French and Japanese clubs as League. Look at the team that the All Blacks have now vs the talent OS. This is dilliuting the talent available for national duty and S14. Rugby will eventually have to bite the bullet and allow all players to play for their country regardless of the comp they’re in and watch all the talent go to Europe and Japan.
Spencer said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
NickF – funny thing about articles. You have to read them before you know if you want to read them. Get the point?
BTW are you Steve’s manager?
I hate Weidler Club said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Steve loved your article and yes it is tongue in cheek but SBW is not a sportsman who I admire as he is just after $$$. The age of a true sportsman is gone unfortunately.
The people who bagged the article should look past the marketing of SBW and see him for the sportsman he is. Gifted in the physical sense but shallow in soul as the chase for the mighty dollars will all he will be remembered for.
Mike said | June 15th 2009 @ 5:13pm | Report comment
TL – good points. In one sense the threat to Rugby is not as great, in that the foreign Rugby clubs can’t poach contracted Rugby players, whereas a contracted League player like SBW is fair game. But I appreciate you are making a much broader point than that, and of course the foreign clubs just have to wait until our Rugby players are off their contract.
It seems to have hurt NZ more than Australia, which is probably a reflection of where we stood – the ABs were one of the great sides, so losing players o/s has hurt them. Whereas the Wallabies were a moribund side badly in need of new blood, plus we had Robbie (thank you, thank you, NZ for your greatest export to us!!!!) who was intent on bringing up the next generation – I suspect he was very happy for the decks to be cleared!
I couldn’t see it at the time – I was pretty devastated when players like Vickerman and Elsom went o/s, I couldn’t imagine an Australian linout without Dan, or a winning Wallabies side without Rocky. But now, I can see that the Wallabies can win without either – Robbie has picked out very real talent among the youngest players, and they are combining with the old hands who are left to make a Champion Team, rather than just a Team of Champions.
Also, the lure of playing for one’s country remains strong: I predict in future we will see the best new Aus and Kiwi players putting in several years for their country, before heading overseas (not to mention that a player who holds down a spot with ABs or Wallabies for a few years is going to command a higher price from the overseas provinces anyway). And at World Cup time everyone comes back – Rocky’s value on the open market is huge, he can command far higher than he gets from any Australian S15 team, yet when World Cup approaches, there is only one place he wants to be.
So I am not sure that Australia is disadvantaged. I take your point re NZ however.
I would like to see a rule that all provincial sides must release players to their country for World Cup duty (including qualifiers) if required. It doesn’t matter to Aus – at present we have a rule that you must play in Australia or you aren’t eligible. But there are many talented smaller nations (notably the Pacific Islands) who need their overseas contracted players at World Cup time, and can’t produce their best without them.
Ben J said | June 15th 2009 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Very funny article, I guess what Steve is alluding to is that SBW is the kind of person that can’t be trusted with a contract, is a bit daft, has little loyalty to anyone and is easily manipulated into making stupid career decisions. Hey, that just described League culture!
JF said | June 15th 2009 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
RL players crossing over to Rugby is a fad. By RL players I mean those who have always been RL players, they will always be RL players. A sabbatical to europe, more cash, the chance of a RWC experience – after varying degrees of success, they will then return to the game they have always loved. RL converts have given little to Rugby other than short-term marketing appeal, without performance, the attraction will eventually dissapear and normality will resume. Sailor, Tahu, Tuquiri, Williams, Gower – all talented RL players that look obviously out of place on a rugby field. Have not seen much of Gasnier at Stade but he looks like a possible exception. RL has nothing to worry about as far as poaching goes, the strike rate of leaguies performing on the Rugby stage is low. The S14 and the Top 14 will soon realise that these poaching exercises are no longer worth the effort. In terms of Australian rugby, more resources should be put into retaining schoolboy rugby talent – Elsom and Barnes should have never gone to RL. We now have the likes of RL journeyman Chris Walker expressing an interest in Rugby, he clearly has no interest in the game but sees this as an opportunity to earn some cash in his twighlight years. The ARU needs to kick this addiction of cheap, short-term marketing appeal of a big RL name, it is doing damage to the game.
Bailey said | June 15th 2009 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
Somebody give Steve a lollipop! What a sad little boy!!
Mike said | June 15th 2009 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
Sorry JF, but I don’t agree. For starters your attempt at selecting players to fit into categories of “Rugby players” or “League players” won’t work – the categories just become what you want them to be. Many Rugby fans don’t want to accept that it is possible for league players to do well at Rugby and vice versa, but yes, it is possible. Its certainly easier to move the other way, to the less complicated game, but that is a different matter. There have been many great dual internationals through the history of the game, and there is no reason to think this will change.
Lote Tuqiri has given stirling service to the Wallabies, whether die-hards like to admit it or not. His current value was overestimated, but that is not so much a “League cringe factor” as the ARU’s ingrained tendency to hero worship – the same attitude kept George Gregan and others cemented into their Wallaby positions well past their use-by date, for example.
Timana Tahu has done fine so far, absolutely no reason to think his recruitment was a mistake. There are many issues with Sonny Bill Williams, but I suggest his league background is not one of them – his problems go deeper than the code he plays, and he can overcome them *if* he is willing to take the pain.
Two eminent Rugby coaches obviously disagree with you: (a) Robbie Deans was instrumental in recruiting Tahu, and he wouldn’t have done that for any short-term “quick fix” – that’s not Robbie’s way. (b) Nick Mallett’s comments on the weekend show that he wouldn’t agree with you about Gower, and I think Mallet knows a thing or two about Rugby and what is required to succeed.
Also re your quip about the ARU’s “cheap short-term marketing appeal of a big RL name”: I think the ARU has it right. Rugby in Australia will not survive if it does not grow. Growing includes taking fans away from League, and that includes reminding League fans every time one of their heroes turns to Rugby. It causes League fans to consider Rugby with an open mind, and once they do that, they are on the way to discovering that it is actually a better game than League.
JohnB said | June 15th 2009 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
Strikes me as a trifle early for the cheap shots (especially given it was the idiot manager and not Sonny Bill mouthing off). As I recall it, in the finals series in which the Bulldogs won their last premiership Sonny Bill was frighteningly good – far, far better than Steve’s article makes out – and looked every inch the best player in the world. Whether he can ever get to that level again consistently, and translate what he does to rugby, who knows – but I wouldn’t be writing him off based on one run in a scratch team up against a strong international side.
Kento said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
Everyone’s entitled to their view, but sheez… This was a piece of humourous sports journalism, which in my view was well crafted and prompted the odd chuckle.
Do we really want the same cliched, boring and safe sports analysis every week?
In order for there to be some variety surely we must understand not everyone will subscribe to the concept or style.
Steve Kaless said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Thank you to all for your comments, you’ll never die wondering when writing for this site.
The Answer said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
Strikes me than it is all good fun to bag out league for many on this site, but onec they cross the divide they become a protected species.
This is sport, not everything is meant to be gravely serious.
JF said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Mike,
I have no problem accepting the fact that an RL player can do well in Rugby, I just haven’t seen it.
Yes, Robbie and Nick know more than me, so I accept your point, but again, I am yet to see anything from any convert that makes me believe that they could reach the heights of Rugby.
More importantly, your comments about league fans looking to RU with an open mind, I cant accept. Mainly because the converts aren’t going across because of a new-found love of rugby, I believe the majority have little interest in the game. Do you think Dell watches rugby these days? The standard response from the RL fraternity to a convert is “He is just going for the money” and in the majority they are right. The attraction of big internationals and travel also play their part, but RL fans know that they are not going over for anything other than financial gain.
My main point is that Rugby must maintain a certain brand identity to survive / grow in a saturated sporting market. Using SBW and Dell so heavily in promotion of the Barbarians test was disgusting, it damages the Rugby brand. Good quality rugby is the best long-term promotion for the game, and we will not get it by trying to fit RL stars into rugby teams, plenty of sizzle, but no sausage.
westy said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
John B Sonny played less than 55% of scheduled first grade games. he was basically injury prone. I am not anti him one way or other but to ignore this is a little trite
Jf I generally agree with you. They are distinct and different games with some commonality of basic.skills .
I would suggest jason Robinson was a very good convert. My problem is that apart from Tuquiri we have never got their best. SBW was a wide playing second rower notorious for his shoulder charges and ability to offload not for his pace. Yet in rugby he plays in the centres. We buy Tahu a very good rugby league winger who played one year in the centres for parramatta but devastatingly for Newcastle and NSW on the wing. We bought Rodgers who played on the wing for his Cronulla club and QLD and we made him a centre and No 10. Rugby union made him a better 5/8 then ever rugby league did.John Lang always thought his defence was poor.
Rugby league has very good younger players and that is the key to target them at younger ages. At 18 and 19 professional rugby league is not a bad development vehicle. Both Barnes and Rocky Elsom make very clear they believed playing in that professional environment was better than the alternative QLD junior rugby academy.
like him or not Michael Crocker may have been a fine open side flanker like amad dog “just fetch the ball”
We have gone for headlines rather than development. A much younger darren lockyer would have been very interesting.
The best defensive rugby league centres are Hodges and Cooper , they defend lines never gasnier or tahu. gasnier was hidden on the wing in defence.
Need to be very selective but I assure you I would like a go at that slater. he has jason Robinson written all over him and he is at the peakof his powers.
I watch the toyota U/20’s and then our Colts competition. I assure you there are some very good rugby players in the former spread across 16 teams in the latter they exist in about 4 teams. It is at this age rugby should in the future be interested.
Tom Alexander. said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
SBW Tahu and Gasnier should have stuck to League going to Union was a backward step skill and fitness wise like Johnathan Davis famously said after returning to Union it was the first time he felt cold something which he never felt playing the more dynamic and physically demanding game of Rugby League.
JF said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
They should have stuck to league because they look so akwardly out of place on a rugby field. The difficulty of the crossover is consistently underestimated.
Mike said | June 15th 2009 @ 11:33pm | Report comment
JF
If you haven’t seen an RL player “do well in Rugby” then all you need to do is open your eyes, but I fear that is asking too much. Every one of the players you mentioned is an example that contradicts you.
And yes, Robbie and Nick do know more than you. But it doesn’t matter what they think, does it? What would they know, compared to you?
And you can’t accept that any league fan would look at Rugby with an open mind – well of course you can’t, and you never will regardless of what you ever see or hear.
Next you tell us that any rugby league convert is going across because of a love of money, with the clear implication that those already playing Union professionally are not doing it for the money. “RL fans know that they are not going over for anything other than financial gain” – of course that must be so, because you have told us!
joeb said | June 16th 2009 @ 5:37am | Report comment
“but your manager would say you can do whatever you want (as long as he can get his 15 percent…bro).”
Lucky his manager isn’t Harry M. Miller — minimum percentage rate for managerial skills 25.
Ask Debbie Hutton. And she was living with the famous entrepreneur at the time, but still no discount, even though he was on the receiving end of several generous freebie extras.
Anyway Steve, SBW is going to find rugby far tougher to succeed in than RL as it’s a vastly different beast with far tougher demands whatever his possie. IMHO a return to Belmore may well serve him best.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Who is Sonny Bill Williams anyway? Is he famous?
Crosscoder said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Mike.
Please let’s get real.
Suggest you know little about the average rugby league fan.A player switching over to union,may initially have a one up look at him for the novelty value:eg SBW and the Baas and Gower at for the Azzurri,but switching codes you gotta be kidding.Yet the TV ratings were nothing to write home about.
As a matter of fact many rl supporters are put off by the move to union,the attitude is big deal,rl has a ongoing development system that keeps producing’.
Idris= SBW the former still at high school, is just as talented playing for Canterbury..
Rugby league at grassroots level and at pro level is booming in England,despite the fact a few pro rl players have switched to union.A small part of the growth is due to kids switching form union to rl,more so in Wales.
Have you actually thought conversely,there are young union players more than slightly miffed seeing rl players switch and get inside runnings into the Wallabies and S14 sides.
Anyone with a sound knowledge of sporting history,knows union has poached many rugby league players,when the game was supposedly amateur.Eg France for decades.
In fact the French rugby league players are now being left alone in the main,as French clubs consider getting the best talent more so union from NZ/Argentina/England and the odd Gasnier.The number of French rl players declined prior to 2005,the number of registered players in various forms has since grown to 32,500.
Gasnier(who was shortchanged on 3rd party deals in rl ,SBW and Gower went over for money firstly and secondly to escape the goldfish existence in Sydney.They have all stated so.Money actually happens to talk also in the commercial world.
Good on players for maximising their income for what is a short existence.Union has about half a dozen rl players,the English super league has nearly 100 and others in the other divisions.I know which is the bigger threat,
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Yes, I think you should get real. Anyone who knows league in Sydney would never use expressions like “the average rugby league fan”! In any case, you have missed my point. I have never suggested that league in Sydney will disappear. But I am suggesting that it can suffer significant loss of fans to Rugby and is likely to do so in future.
That is only my opinion based on anecdotal evidence, but since (contrary to your baseless assertion) I am indeed in touch with a fairly large number of dedicated league supporters, my opinion is as good as any else’s!
Many die-hard supporters in both union and league wish to believe otherwise. The former wish to be exclusive, they don’t want to be associated with their pre-conceived notions of rugby league supporters and they can’t admit to themselves that someone from another code can master their game. The latter are afraid that their beleaguered game (excuse the pun) is going to suffer serious inroads from professional union.
Well, there is bad news for both groups: league players can transfer codes quite successfully and have done so, whether it is Rogers, Tuqiri, or Barnes at Super 15/Wallabies level in Australia, or Craig Gower (an ageing league player who went to France to do no more than play professional rugby at a provincial level, and then found that he was good enough to be selected for a second-string test side).
I know you and many other die-hard league supporters want to believe that everyone else is like you, that they will never forgive SBW for his betrayal (ho hum), that they will follow League for ever. But the real world is different: Union has reformed its game, and it’s a better game, a more tactical game than League. It is also a true world game. League on the other hand has dummed down its rules, eliminated any contest for the ball, made its scrums a laughing stock, tried to emphasise athleticism as though it can ever replace tactics in football, and has become even less international than it ever was. League in Australia will inevitably lose fans through its own short-sighted attitude, and the most likely place they will gravitate to is Union. Once the fans move, eventually the media dollars will follow.
I am not sure what relative numbers of league players in France or Wales has to do with the situation in Australia, so I’ll let those ones through to the keeper!
Re Gasnier and Gower, of course they went for the money. My point in response to JF was that Union players are no different. Elsom also went for the money, so does every other Union and League player who goes overseas. Furthermore, every professional player of either code is in it for the money. This chest-beating by die-hard and exclusive supporters of each code, claiming that only players of the other code (or code-switchers) are in it for the money is moronic in the extreme. Neither Idris, Lockyer, Elsom or Gasnier differ in this respect. However, they are all of them *also* motivated by other factors than money – something the chest-beaters will not recognise in other codes besides their own. What that motivation is will vary: Lote Tuquiri and Steve Rogers always aimed at Wallaby selection, and with good reason. Craig Gower on the other hand (aged 29 when he switched codes) probably had no objective other than making a fresh start in first grade football which the Sydney press would never allow him – yet as it happened he was good enough for one of the most astute Rugby coaches in the world to give him a go at test level. Good on them all.
True Tah said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
I saw the back page of the Telegraph and now it seems Motor Mouth Mason is sizing up an opportunity to play rugby in Japan.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Yes, very bizarre. I am not aware of any forwards ever making the switch, and Mason of all people…? But, if the Jap competition is fairly low skill-level, then perhaps he can learn the rudiments and they can use his size as a crowd-puller. Assuming that its not just a Sydney media beat-up of course…!
Brett McKay said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Puh-lease… the way Mason’s playing now he’d struggle to break the line in the U16s, let alone Japan. He’ll end up being the reverse Garrick Morgan..
True Tah said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
It could be a media beatup. I know in Japanese rugby they are pretty hard re: player discipline. Whilst his antics in Sydney might get a laugh in the NRL dressing room, he would probably be sacked over there for some of the stuff he did here.
It wasnt so long ago that Mason was talking about taking up an NFL position in New York or an All Black jersey…maybe he has a contract with the Telegraph that he has to make these sort of claims every year?
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Oops, by Steve Rogers of course I meant Mat Rogers (the 41st Australian dual code international)…!
JF said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Mike – you are not aware of any fowards making the switch – how about brad thorn?
The Link said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Mike – ‘But I am suggesting that it can suffer significant loss of fans to Rugby and is likely to do so in future.’
Rugby needs to attract League fans in Australia to become the No.1 football game in NSW and QLD, otherwise where are the fans coming from? Jonh Oneil knows this (ELV’s), Channel 7 knows this (Dell and SBW promotion), but Rugby fans have yet to cotton on. Currently Rugby sits probably 3rd in both behind League and Futbol in NSW and QLD, with AFL in QLD giving it a good nudge
Rugby isn’t goinng to get to No.1 just because its more of a ‘world game’, we’ve learnt that lesson with Futbol in Australia. It needs to be a better product than League for people to want to go and see it ans watch it, simple.
With further dillution of the S14 from flight to Europe I can’t see it being ‘likely’ or ‘inevitable’ as you suggest.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
You got me bang to rights there, JF. I hope I am not showing unconscious bias against All Blacks by forgetting him – Thornie has done really well for them.
I can’t remember if he is the first dual international to represent Australia in one code and NZ in another, but there couldn’t have been many.
Rolling Maul said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Waste of web space – SBW will carve up when he gets to the AB.. as if a performance with the Barbarians is anything to judge his ability on. You could see his potential in that match.. and the same with Gower playing with Italy – that try he scored bringing it inside with the flick pass.. beautiful and showed what a league mind can do on a rugby pitch. There wouldn’t be one Wallaby who would have tried that run.
I think its refreshing to see the likes of Gower and SBW playing rugby.. they bring a new element to the game and one it really needs.
Greg Russell said | June 16th 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Steve, while I find this a very well written and amusing article, I find it bemusing that people take the piss out of SBW being given so much oxygen by the media … by giving him even more oxygen!
Spiro’s report on the Australia-BaaBaas game last week was another classic example. Despite Spiro in general being extraordinarily cynical about rugby league players crossing over to rugby, about two-thirds of his match report was about SBW. Sure, he did some impressive things, but there were probably about 10 players on the field who were better, almost all of them in gold jerseys.
Steve B said | June 16th 2009 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
There is no higher pinnacle than playing test football , winning a Grand Final and winning the International Newcomer Player of the Year Award, what have you ever achieved Steve?
Steve Kaless said | June 16th 2009 @ 6:17pm | Report comment
Steve B,
You are right. I am worthless, I just realised, I shall never ever pass comment on someone who has achieved more than I, but bow down at their feet.
No higher pinnacle? What about captaining your country? what about captaining a team to a Grand Final? What about winning two Grand Finals?
I am amazed at how many people think sporting careers are just about doing something once, ticking the box and saying I’ve done it. The greatness of people like Ryan Giggs and Lance Armstrong comes from the fact that have the drive and hunger to continue to succeed and to set new benchmarks. The “I’ve done it all brigade” will never come close to rivalling their achievements because they don’t have the mental toughness to constant push themselves further.
Of course, there will be always be plenty of people to massage their egos because the critics have probably never achieved anything. Not a single thing.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
“You are right. I am worthless, I just realised…”
Don’t be so hard on yourself Steve K – you DID write an amusing article!
The Answer said | June 16th 2009 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Steve B, you are clearly another of the gormless SBW drones. Sure he won a Grand Final, sure he was a great player, but people try and compare him to the real greats of the game as just kidding themselves. He may have had the potential to surpass those before him but he then opted out. Good luck to him, but he shouldn’t insult their achievements by saying “I did it all”. Choc might have told you Sonny, but you didn’t.
Crosscoder said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Mike.
Please read what I stated,nowhere did I suggest you had said rugby league would disappear because of converts to ru.Nor did i suggest that rl players could not convert to union readily.My point was still is,you lose some player s to union,you have a growing grassroots base(eg the under 20/18/15 comp to fill the gaps.
Tuqiri,Sailor,Mat Rogers went over ,and I have not seen a fair swag of rl fans,deciding to follow the game more intently. ie it has not suffered a significant loss of fans.SBW has little impact on me,he was agood player when he was fit,yet since his absence the Bulldogs have rocketed to the top of the NRL ladder.Sends a message to me.
Rugby league fans ,and yes I too know sufficient numbers of average,above average whatever,rl fans to form an opinion 1) that they love the game first and foremost 2) that high profile players who switch and SBW and Mat Rogers(who i followed for years )did not lead to people jumping ship to follow union (passing interest in my experience).
Yeah iknow where you are coming from with your beleagured comment,suffice to say more people are playing the game in Oz than at any time of its short history and diito in other countries.This despite union becoming overtly professional.
I am not going to argue the merits or otherwise re competition for the ball ,continual collapsed scrums where the ball is thrown behind the hooker,lifting in lineouts,tackling blah blah blah,(technicalities and Rod Kafer chalkboard tactics can be as boring as bs for many).Even the doyen of rugby union P FitzSimons maintains does not still know what half the penalties are for.
Contest for the ball hello,every tackle in rl is a contest for the ball,every tackle in the ingoal area,into touch,40/20,contest for the ball from a bomb,grubber,and the ball in play for 85% plus of the time.
Suffice to say the game of rugby league does particularly well as an entertainment vehicle for TV,that is why an under 20 comp,can at times get ratings close to S14,and the NRL is on FTA and rates its head off on Pay.That is where the dollar bikkies are located Tv ratings.
Union has indeed reformed its game,and by the hell it had to.Still regardless of the ELVs S14 Tv ratings and crowds have dropped In NZand people like the AB Kaino’s sisters say they prefer to watch rugby league via the Warriors.
Union is indeed a world game in terms of being played in a large number of countries.But the reality is /was when the last RWC final in France was held 97% of the viewing audience came from the 8 established union countries,leaving
remainder of about 900,000 from the rest of the world.These
figures come from the NZRU and were commented on by a former AB.
To say the game of rl is less intnl than it was,suggests you are out of touch with what is actually happening overseas.Go to the RLEF website,read various articles on what is happening in other countries tournaments for this year,and say there is less of an intnl flavour than in the past.My point on France and Wales were just a couple examples.France has had for decades their players plundered by union,yet when it when fully pro,rl has grown in that country.
Suggest you speak to a few Cook Islanders,Tongans,Samoans,Fijians in their home countries who will be involved in a Pacific cup involving also PNG.
Reminds me a few years back Bob Dwyer made the comment when union became pro that rugby league would wither,and JON indicated with the 2003RWC somethingsimilar.JON then came back not that long ago stating rl is the most resilient of games ,not a SL war or a RWC could kill it off.
Of course should and it is a very good chance of happening a further 2 sides are included in the NRL expansion ,the word wither and beleaguered will take on a new meaning no doubt.I have heard and read it all before,it is almost scripted.
DogsOfWar said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
We still talking about SBW. Leave him be in France, eventually he we realise that there is more to life than money.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:25pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Wading through your long post, you seem to think I am arguing that transfer of league players to union is somehow essential to the former’s growth. I can assure you I am not! I wrote that I thought the ARU was wise to publicise when a league star moved to Union, because its all part of the effort to win supporters from League.
If you want to tell yourself that league is growing, that Union is not making inroads into its fan base, then be my guest! The proof of the pudding will be in the eating after all. I think the knee-jerk reaction from League supporters everytime one of their stars goes to Union says it all. But there will always be some sort of league competition in Sydney, so nothing to fear there.
Crosscoder said | June 16th 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Ok Will keep it brief.
Obviously some of the figures not to your liking.
Not a case of me saying rl is growing the facts speak for themselves.If there are more people playing rl than at any time in its history,it is growing.if the SOO has the highest Tv ratings in its history it is growing. Mike it “ain’t hard.
Your last para sums up what i have been hearing and reading since 95 and even before that some of the presumptious garbage in my ru school years.The largest crowds in rugby league happened in 2005 after the RWC03 and various defections to union.So much for knee jerk reactions.
westy said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Mike rugby junior numbers are growing in western Sydney. i hesitate to say we are making inroads into rugby league’s fanbase . it does not hurt us to have a reality check.
The Wallabies v Babarians test got 374000 on FTA. The first NRL game on Friday night got 676000 the AFL 726000 and the NRL still pulled 353000 for their late night game.
the wallabies v Italy got 373000 with only 17000 in Melbourne. On friday night the NRL got 704000 and the AFL 920000, Again the late night NRL game still managed 330000 .
rugby league got 2322000 for its SOO and a cool 1590000 to its pre match show with respective audiences of 330000 and 302000 in Melbourne . Well beaten by Mastershef and a movie on 7 in Melbourne but nearly equivalent to our entire nationwide audience.
Many of us in rugby tend to talk to each other whilst conveniently ignoring reality or merely believing our own perceptions.
the competitive product on FTA we have are the Tri nations tests. That is it.
I will let you in on a little secret I would love to have some of those league fans the problem is not many of them seem to be viewing our product or if they are we must not have many of our own.
I am sorry to sound like a smart arse but there is a tendency in Australian rugby to just be talking to the converted or seeing the world through rose coloured glasses. Our paytv figures for the super 14 declined this year by a factor of 10%.
i believe we are moving in the right direction just not as fast as some of us perceive we are. It is critical we do not underestimate our progress nor put us into a perceived position we are no where near.
Midfielder said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Mike Crosscoder Westy TT Steve K
I would be interested in your views about the relationship visa V RU / RL
I think RL is directing its effects at countering a move by the AFL into its traditional heartland areas of WS & GC. Further RL is trying to decide what to do about football cannot make up it’s mind whether to fight or make friends. My guess is RL has decided it cannot take on the AFL & Footballat the same time so has decided just to fight the AFL. I actually don’t think RL folk care or are afraid of RU as they are about the other codes. RL has accepted RU is the international game but they have the domestic competition
Still me thinking BTW … RU are more concerned about RL because of things that happen in the past … also hoping that RL may somehow start a slow decline and their followers will move to RU..
Still me thinking … maybe I am way off the ball but in a recent survey late 2006 I think RL supporters where surveyed In Sydney and asked their second code and it when something like this Football 65%, AFL 18%, RU 17% .. meaning a small slippage but a massive lift for football….in a similar survey for RU .. its was Football 68%, AFL 21%, RL 11%.
I guess what I am trying to say is RL is fighting (if that is the right word) codes that are a threat or have some plan in mind fight one make friends with the other… RU on the other hand are still fighting the pre professional days and although they can see the danger presented by the AFL expansion & Football awakening RU seems incapable of re directing its resources away from RL & the pre professional days.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
“Obviously some of the figures not to your liking”. Ummm no, spin and guesswork are not “figures”. You haven’t cited any figures in your post, except one, a desperate attempt to spin the viewing figures for RWC 2007.
Time for a reality check on that one: From the IRB web-site: “In total 119 international broadcasters televised the action across 202 TV territories with a potential cumulative reach of over 4.2 billion (up 800 million on RWC 2003). Live coverage also increased dramatically on 2003 levels from 5,500 hours to over 8,500 broadcast hours (up 3,000 hours).” Be kind to yourself, and don’t try to argue the world status of Rugby.
You then repeat a mantra “it is growing”, “it is growing”, but of course no facts or figures, because you have no current figures for where League or Union are trending right now.
Then there is your true gem: “The largest crowds in rugby league happened in 2005 after the RWC03” Really? I’ll let you think about what that does to your argument about where League is right now.
I wrote in my last post: “The proof of the pudding will be in the eating after all.” The fact that you can’t cope with that, is precisely the reaction I am talking about.
Woody Warambel said | November 28th 2009 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Mike
Here’s the reality:
http://www.puttingrugbyfirst.com/executive_summary.php
“…Television audience data for the 2007 World Cup final, between South Africa and England, shows that 97% of the 33 million total viewers came from the Foundation Unions – with just half a million viewers of the final spread amongst all the remaining nations where it was shown live. There are 115 members of the IRB – but rugby is evidently not particularly popular in most of them…”
Mike said | November 29th 2009 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
Woody,
The figures you cite are worthless. They might be accurate, or they might not, but we have no idea because they do not cite any source.
The 2007 Rugby World Cup Final was the fourth most-watched sporting event in the world in 2007. That (in your words) is “the reality”. It was beaten by one soccer event, one Gridiron match, and one athletics event.
Even if you can get some reliable break-up figures for the RWC2007 Final television audience, then don’t get excited – without comparable break-up of the figures from other codes, they will be meaningless. All they will tell us is what we know already: Soccer is the code with widest worldwide distribution. Rugby comes next – a long way behind soccer, but way ahead of the other codes. To some people that is important, to others it isn’t, but either way the situation is not in doubt.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
Westy,
Good to see some hard data in someone’s post, but unfortunately it doesn’t tell us much. Of course League has good TV viewing figures – it is the incumbent dominant code in Sydney, so we already knew that it would have the best TV deals.
None of these figures tell us where League is heading right now.
You seem to *assume* that I am writing as a long-time Rugby supporter – I am not! I write from the perspective of a former (and realistic) league supporter, with many friends and acquaintances of similar background, who can see the straws in the wind.
I agree that if Rugby doesn’t fill the gap left by League’s loss of support, other codes will, but that doesn’t change what is happening to League.
However, one very useful point from the figures you cited: If Rugby wants to seriously grow its fan base at the expense of League (and other codes), it needs to cut its dependence on Pay TV. A major factor keeping NRL alive is its presence on free-to-air TV every week. Without a Super 15 game on free-to-air each week in prime sports time, Rugby does it a lot tougher than it needs to.
John Ryan said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
I know some of you union blokes get a bit deluded at times but are you sure your not Micheal C in disguise Mike.
Always wonder why union struggles to beat under 20s on pay TV has no FTA and is reguarded as the code with the lesser chance of surviving
I dont know where you get your figures from mike must be the same place the international AFL come from, as I have said before I find Shaun the sheep more interesting that most Rugby union games
Most Rugby League fans I know would not cross the road to watch RU
.
Mike said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
John Ryan,
No, I don’t know who Micheal C is. I’ll take that as a compliment (I guess)… Not sure re your question about figures: I only cited one set, a direct quote from the IRB web-site about viewing figures in 2007.
Anyway, its a free country and you’re allowed to watch anything you please. If you find Rugby boring, my advice would be: Don’t watch it!
John Ryan said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
And of course the IRB would know ,I seem to recall reading an article in maybe the Australian,about a group that researched all these 5 billion watch this world wide,and they came to the conclusion that the various groups just made it up.
They have no Idea how many or how few watch,so I think I would take the figures with a very large grain of salt,if its ok for you to say your mates are thinking of switching to RU,they must bore easy,then I can say my mates wont.
The man said | June 17th 2009 @ 7:14am | Report comment
While union fans may feel some “I told you so” satisfaction in professional union turning the tables on leagues historic poaching in recent times, the result of such efforts in S15, rather than the intention, appears to be that former leagueies end up circus freaks – they are used to drive publicity to get league fans to watch for “how will he go” curiousity and are at the same time not accepted by the union fraternity who death ride them.
The opposite can be said of union players who made the switch to league – they were welcomed with open arms.
Sbw was selected for the baa baas for publicity value alone. To put him in so early in his union career is unfair to someone learning the game and degrades the baa baa jumper.
As for the article, a good humourous read, if we can’t laugh at the antics of choc, sbw and co – what can you laugh at. Some of you blokes seem to have had a sense of humour failure.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:48am | Report comment
JR,
This is true – I’ve always thought media figures were a communist plot…or maybe its the Illuminati!
The man
Also true – there are some union supporters who will never accept that a league players can do well at union. I think it threatens them, since its clearly not based on any objective factors. However, whilst vocal, those people are quite small in number, and increasingly irrelevant to the game.
My view is that Union has to be open to all potential players, whatever their origin. Robbie Deans clearly held this opinion when he recruited Timana Tahu – I don’t think he saw Tahu as necessarily being the next Kefu, just a player with potential, and the fact he had a league background was irrelevant.
Whilst some League players cannot make the switch to union (and the reverse can be true – Garrick for example), yet many do. A large number of League players do well at the provincial level, and a fair number hold their place in the best test teams – the achievements of Mat Rogers, Lote Tuqiri and Brad Thorn speak for themselves.
Crosscoder said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Mike you really left yourself stranded on the wing on this one.Love a little ambush marketing.No spin no gueswork just raw data.
Participation based on the ARL/NRL 2008 figures.You know the year SBW left these sunny shores for a French holiday.
More people played rugby league in the game’s centenary year than in any year of the previous 100years.
There were a record 445,000 participants in jnuiors,seniors,schools and masters comps around the nation this season.
More than 5,000 new junior players(6-18 yrs) joined clubs in 2008 taking total Junior club regos to 120,000 (up3% on 07).
junior numbers in non traditional areas for rl states increased with victoria adding an extra 24 junior teams.and Wa juniors up 30% on 07.
When senior players (19up) are included there are more than 155,000 club players registered nationally.
An extra 10,000 primary and secondary school school students participated in regular school comps(min 5 rounds) taking the total number of students in regular school comps to 141,000(up 9% on 07).
I dont’t want to upset you with rl FTA and Pay Tv ratings for SOO and Pay Tv,but can provide if you wish.
Suffice to say the SOO1 this year was a record for any match in the series.
Nor do i want to talk about the increase in sales of licensed products which included the much maligned RLWC08.
You had a shot at crowd figures for the NRL this year,suggest you take a very close peek at the declining crowds for the Force/Brumbies the Reds in particular and the Tahs,and if you so wish throw in S14 crowds and Tv ratings in NZ(in decline).
As a red head once said please explain.
Rugby union (BTW there are 2 codes of rugby) is indeed a world game on the basis of 120 countries playing it.There are only 30 plus playing rugby league,but 20 years ago there were lucky to be a dozen.However out of 120 countries there is one (Ok a couple of PI ) where union isthe national code.Even in Sth africa soccer is the sport played by the masses.I will repeat the RWC final attracted 97% of the audience from 8 countries.These are not my figures,the final had 33million viewers.
When you are talking gems there is none bigger than the beauty foistered on the public of 4billion,sometimes i have read 4.5billion watching the union world cup.There is a saying going around for inflation “use the union calculator”.
Should you want me to provide details of rl development in overseas countries,will only be happy to oblige.Quite a bit of this development involves former ru people,who prefer to play and watch rl and even the odd ru club that wants to have a rl club as an add on.
i have stated I was brought up on private school ru and still watch the occasional union test.However rl is now my main sport and a few defections is not going to change that,and that opinion is shared by rl followers(who also happen to like soccer) i mix with.
True Tah said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Midfielder
my view on the relationship between RL and RU is that they are essentially competing for the same athletes. Futbol does not compete for the same sort of athletes, whereas Australian football uses athletes from both codes. Rugby players of both codes tend to be larger and more powerfully built than their futbol player playing counterparts, who focus more on their agility. It is criminal that the ARU/NSWRU has largely ignored the massive islander population in western sydney, many of whom rugby would be their first love, and whom naturally turn to rugby league, which historically has been much more inclusive than rugby. I was at the Panthers game on the weekend, and went to the club afterwards, and talking to some of the Islander boys there, many were more upset that the All Blacks had lost to France than the Panthers losing to the Sea Eagles.
The focus tends to be on the professional game, not the amateur game, and this is an area where I think rugby league is going to struggle. At my rugby club, we get a heaps of guys who come from rugby league, basically they didnt have enough players at their club to run a side so they swtiched. I understand rugby league is semi-professional at park level, and if you cant cut the grade there, then chances of you playing the game are much reduced, so they look elsewhere.
I think the ARU should be focusing more on getting guys playing the game at a junior level. At subbies level, the game is growing, many clubs which were struggling to fill four grades 3 years ago now have enough to fill six grades. What we need are more stories like Prairiewood High School. Previously, the only sporting story of note for that school was that Christian Vieri of Italian fame went to school there, but these bunch of lads have certainly raised the profile of their school. Im not happy with the level of reporting of rugby in the SMH, it seems too uni/randwick/easts centris. Last year the Two Blues beat a Randwick side studded with super 14 players, and it got bugger all coverage.
You make a mention that rugby league fans have futbol as their 2nd favourite sport, this might be true, but SFC obviously does not take advantage of this, or if they are trying to, they need to sack whoever was in charge. I would say that many Australian football fans take a lot more interest in the Melbourne Victory than RL fans in Sydney, and I would argue that the club has been run by guys with an interest/background in AFL.
Frank Lowy made the comment when the HAL started that AFL and RL fans can support their club, but also follow a HAL club. I would ask Frank how many AFL or RL games has he supported, and which RL side does he support?
Steve B said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Steve you still haven’t answered my question. So I’ll asked it again, what have you ever achieved in sport? All you’ve done in this article is mock a 23 year old gifted athlete. I did for a moment try to read your article with humour until you attempted to respond to my question about your sporting achievements in a somewhat serious tone. SBW in his charity boxing match raised $50,000 in 90 seconds for St.Vincents Hospital Drug Rehabilition and probably helped take a few drug users off our streets. But you try and compare him to Mohammed Ali. Does playing a charity tennis match mean your ready to take on Roger Federer? Give me a break. You would be better served giving the “humour” a break for now and maybe writing an inspirational article on like how Willie Tonga credits Sonny Bill for his State of Origin Lazarus Comeback. I also wanted to mention how SBW is just a symptom of what is wrong with the NRL and how hypocrite lawyer David Gallop is out for the Murdoch Empire and so should SBW, but I’ll leave that to another day.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Its not my problem: *you* were the one who wrote that League viewing figures in 2005 were the largest ever!
You cite a number of irrelevant figures, I suppose hoping that a mass of words will cover up for the weakness of your argument – everyone knows that league is the incumbent dominant code in Sydney. The question is, where is it headed? In all the long words of your post, there is nothing relevant to that. But I guess that doesn’t surprise, because you are not trying to convince me, you are trying to convince yourself.
Re viewing figures for RWC2007, I’m not sure why you are battering your head against a brick wall here, but I’m happy to play along – since the RWC2007 final was the fourth most watched sporting event in the world that year! You don’t cite the source for your figures, and I suspect you don’t know – let me assist:
Sports Futures prepared a report on world-wide home-viewing figures for sporting events in 2007. Their “calculated average” (home-viewing only) for those watching the entire RWC2007 Final was 33 Million, however the “reach” figure was almost double that, and the “potential audience” a lot higher. As stated, Sports Futures only covers home viewing, i.e. it does not cover other sources of viewing such as pubs and clubs, so the real figure will be higher than 33 Million.
But, even though it doesn’t give the full viewing figures (only home-viewing), Sports Futures does provide a reliable comparison for home-viewing of different events (i.e. a like-for-like comparison). And this is where the RWC final is a world-beater: It was FOURTH among all sporting events in 2007 for world home-viewing, after the NFL Super Bowl final (gotta love those American TV audiences), the Brazilian Grand Prix and the Champions League Final.
Other events that people *assume* to be TV smash hits acutally bombed – e.g. the Premier League claimed that the “super match” between Arsenal and Manchester United could attract 1 Billion viewers – but according to the independent analysis of Sports Futures, it had a “calculated average” of 8 Million and a “reach” of 27 Million, i.e. less than 1 percent of the Premier League’s claim, and way behind RWC 2007 Final.
The Cricket World Cup final and the Cricket 20/20 final were also dwarfed by the RWC2007 final.
The IRB figures for the entirety of RWC2007 are consistent with Sports Futures figures, as they refer to “potential audience” for the entire competition. Nobody knows for sure how many people actually watched all the RWC2007 games – there were rather a lot of them, and each attracted a different core audience. For example, Francophone viewers largely switched off for the final since France was out.
And your figures for watching in Sydney? As a rough guide, I am sure they are useful, but don’t rely on them for anything more than a rough guide.
The Link said | June 17th 2009 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
Mike, RU is the fourth most popular football code in Australia, Soccer overtook it post crawford and RWC 2003. Rugby has gone backwards in Australia in the last 5 years. Keep the fingers in the ears and the eyes shut but this is the reality. Rest assured John O’Neil isn’t resting on his laurels.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
TL, can i suggest that you actually read my posts before responding to them? I am at a complete loss as to what this is about – it certainly doesn’t respond to anything by me. If you disagree with me, please try to disagree with a position I actually hold – It makes for a logical converation!
Redb said | June 17th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
True Tah,
You said: “Frank Lowy made the comment when the HAL started that AFL and RL fans can support their club, but also follow a HAL club. I would ask Frank how many AFL or RL games has he supported, and which RL side does he support?”
Excellent comment.
Redb
Crosscoder said | June 17th 2009 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Mike
The NRL crowd highest averages refer in 2005(ie attendees was the largest ever,not the viewers).I stated quite clearly the “largest crowds”.Crowds : not bums on lounges.
Irrelevant figures ,WTH ,you stated people are switching over due to defections to ru.All I am doing is providing you(data) with the growth on participation figures and viewing figures which suggest numbers in the NRL are growing.Therefore defections to ru have little effect,or if they did the slack is being more than made up from other sources.These figures are the most recent available.As soon as you are provided with figures , surprise ,surprise you change course.
Yes the speccie numbers(bums on seats) have declined a little this year,as has all the major codes this year.We are experiencing a downturn I believe.
The 07 RWC final attracted 33million viewers which we both accept.For the accumulative figures to be 4 billion,suggest you would need 120 matches each with a viewing audience of 33million and still not get to 4 billion.The 4 billion figure is treated with cynicism.
BTW I am not arguing against the RWC being a major event,I am arguing about the over the top hype that is thrown up.
Lewie said | June 17th 2009 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Mike…..where’s your evidence that RU is growing whilst League isn’t….or at least according to you no-one knows where League’s heading (i assume you think world domination should be on their agenda)? All figures you provide relate to international figures. What about in Australia? That’s your battlefield…. it is, isn’t it…. really…..come on you can say it? All figures suggest that much to the chagrin of RU fans in this country, League continues to prosper, whilst Union falters. Union figures both crowd-wise and tv ratings-wise are down. Leagues are up in both categories.
So you trot out how well it’s going overseas. Well bully for Union. But why should we in Australia care? It’s sounding like the soccer fan mantra….the worrrrrrld game………who cares? Not everyone, that’s for sure.
The most profitable and well supported football code in Australia is AFL, and AFL fans don’t give a gnat’s nut that theirs is not an international sport. The NFL of America is THE best supported competition in the world crowd-wise, and it’s only a domestic sport, not international.
So if League is happy to dominate domestically (rugby markets that is), so be it. I’m happy, and so are many others. ‘Cos if there’s 4.2 billion watching it, someone has to be part of the 2.5 billion that don’t give a toss.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Lewie,
No, you like Crosscoder need to get your facts straight: “So you trot out how well its going overseas” – No, that’s not what I did. I mentioned in passing that Rugby was a world game, and then for some reason one-eyed League supporters tried to argue the point. I don’t know why they bothered – its not arguable, and I agree, its not particularly relevant to what’s happening in Sydney. , but hey, it wasn’t me that tried to defend the indefensible!
When Crosscoder tried to argue that the RWC 2007 Final only had 30 Million people watching it on TV, it is so obviously wrong that it requires a response. Therefore I have pointed out the facts: 33 Million Home Viewers, plus an unknown number of viewers from other sources, and it was the fourth most-watched sporting event in 2007.
If you don’t like hearing that sort of stuff, don’t bring it up! Its quite simply really.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I will try and put this simply: You (and some others) are getting your knicks in a twist because I suggested, on an anecdotal basis, that League was currently trending downwards and Union trending upwards. When you began to get frantic, I also pointed out that by its very nature, a claim like this cannot be proved or disproved by “figures”. Yet you have persisted in throwing figures all over the place (some going back to 2003????) in an effort to disprove what I said – it cannot be done, yet you persist in trying.
I also said that the proof of the pudding would be in the eating, i.e. we will all find out in the near future whether I am right or not, which I would have thought was very reasonable, and this seemed to get you even more frantic.
You also do not read my posts before replying:
“I stated quite clearly the “largest crowds”.Crowds : not bums on lounges.”
Yes, please go back and re-read my post. I never suggested or implied otherwise.
“Yes the speccie numbers(bums on seats) have declined a little this year,as has all the major codes this year.We are experiencing a downturn I believe.” I think that’s correct, across all codes, and it also doesn’t deal with the issue I raised.
“The 07 RWC final attracted 33million viewers which we both accept.For the accumulative figures to be 4 billion,suggest you would need 120 matches each with a viewing audience of 33million and still not get to 4 billion.The 4 billion figure is treated with cynicism.”
No, you are treating the 4 billion figure with a lack of understanding. A “potential audience” figure of 4 Billion is different to a “home-viewer” figure of 33 Million – they are apples and oranges. I know its advertising jargon, but the concepts should not be hard to follow. The problem is that you (and apparently others) have read far more into the IRB figures than is actually there, and you also fail to realise that 33 Million is not the actual number of viewers. i thought I had sufficiently explained it, but obviously not.
Lewie said | June 17th 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Mike
“You (and some others) are getting your knicks in a twist because I suggested, on an anecdotal basis, that League was currently trending downwards and Union trending upwards.”
Well damn us and our figures to hell ! Anecdotal evidence is where it’s at, eh?
We asked you to provide evidence that your claim had some basis.
“I also pointed out that by its very nature, a claim like this cannot be proved or disproved by “figures””.
Of course you couldn’t, of course it cannot be done, because there is no such evidence. How do we know this? Because Crosscoder provided figures that prove it. Lively discussion quickly ends in frustrating argument when one side uses the angle “it is so, ‘cos i say it is”. Why is it that you say “a claim like this cannot be proved or disproved by “figures”” ? Is it because the ones we’re using don’t suit your argument?
” “So you trot out how well its going overseas” – No, that’s not what I did. ”
Perhaps not in so many words, but you are quick to use the figures that you wanted (the ‘international’ figures) to bolster your argument, yet your equally quick to disregard Crosscoder’s figures because they dispel the myths you promote.
I’m sorry, i just don’t understand how you can continue to debate (i acknowledge you may not have wanted to, but you are still continuing) that League is trending downwards, and Union trending upwards, if when presented with relevant facts and figures that suggest otherwise, you are dismissive of these, and seemingly incredulous that those opposed to your view would bother to present them, when your counter-argument is simply that you and your mates used to like League but now you like Union.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Lewie,
You can jump around as much as you please, or get angry or whatever. That doesn’t change the basic truth – figures showing that one sport is bigger than another do not show where that sport is trending. Figures *may* show where a sport has trended in the past, however the manner in which you and Crosscoder cited them doesn’t even show that.
I am quite entitled to make the claim that I did. And I fully concede that time will tell if I am right or not! That doesn’t excuse your inability to follow a discussion.
Mind you, I think Crosscoder’s point about free-to-air TV was a very good one. Union (I will use that term in deference to his request) is unnecessarily limiting its appeal by staying off prime-time FTA.
“We asked you to provide evidence that your claim had some basis.” No, you didn’t. You went hell-for-leather citing any figures or arguments you could think of, regardless of whether they were relevant to the discussion.
“Perhaps not in so many words, but you are quick to use the figures that you wanted (the ‘international’ figures) to bolster your argument,” No, I didn’t. I pointed out that Crosscoder had incorrectly cited viewing figures for the 2007 World Cup Final, which is true.
And, whilst it isn’t relevant to my original point, I was quite chuffed to find that the RWC 2007 Final absolutely killed the famous Arsenal/Man United game in TV viewing!
Lewie said | June 17th 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
Mike,
i’m happily seated, knickers sans twists, serenely tapping away at a keyboard…..fyi.
just what is it about television ratings figures, and crowd figures increasing for League that aren’t relevant to the discussion? You’re obviously not in to crystal ball projecting, or any projections for that matter, but i will give you a tip:
next Union World Cup
1.Australians will get behind the Wallabies en masse.
2.The ARU will tell the world that Union is the future for Australia.
3.Then for three years and 10 months, every non-union fanatic will go back to not being a Union fanatic.
But i base these predictions merely on anecdotal evidence, albeit they are anecdotes of how the sport has trended in the past.
as for Union “unnecessarily limiting its appeal by staying off prime-time FTA”, i suggest perhaps it’s instead a cunning ploy. They know the more FTA coverage they get, the more people will be turned away from it. But i offer this opinion based only on anecdotal evidence…..that being that me and all my mates think Union is sh!t.
And i apologise if i didn’t ask you “to provide evidence that your claim had some basis”, but i tell you what, to make up for it, i’ll ask now. Please provide evidence that your claim has some basis, so long as you don’t think your entitlements have been infringed upon, of course.
Mike said | June 17th 2009 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
“And i apologise if i didn’t ask you “to provide evidence that your claim had some basis”, but i tell you what, to make up for it, i’ll ask now. Please provide evidence that your claim has some basis, so long as you don’t think your entitlements have been infringed upon, of course.”
I already have, but happy to give more detail: I have grown up in a league family and league background all my life, although for about 20 years I have followed Rugby as well (long story behind that one). But I am used to the tribal nature of League in Sydney, and I love it. In past years, I would be lucky to hear maybe one or two comments in a year (from everyone I know, combined) that even acknowledged Union’s existence. As for acknowledging that Union might have some good or interesting points about it – that simply never happened.
The 2003 and 2007 rugby world cups did make some *temporary* difference. And people would always cheer the Wallabies if a test was televised, but then they would cheer the Davis Cup team if it won a tennis game too. None of it affected their deep support for league.
But for the last six months or maybe a year, I have noticed a distinct change. I regularly hear comments which acknowledge good points about union. Even if said jokingly, things like: “league scrums are pretty useless aren’t they?” or “union are serious about their scrums” would never have been heard 5 years ago. People are interested to hear what Sonny Bill or Craig Gower are doing, without the withering scorn that would once have accompanied it. They indicate interest in how the Waratahs are doing. They actually know the names of most current Wallabies (in past years, they knew of Campese and Gregan, period).
You may say that this is a passing fad – yes I agree that is possible. You may say that it hasn’t translated to bums on seats – I am actually pretty sure that it hasn’t, yet. And it hasn’t affected their viewing habits, unless they have Foxtel, and most don’t. But to someone like myself who has grown up among generational league fanatics (and been one), its quite a shock. As I said, we will see what happens.
The Answer said | June 17th 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
Oh god, he has started on scrums. Gotta love a true believer.
100% league said | June 18th 2009 @ 5:45am | Report comment
Nice one Mike, are you a scientist?
Just a quick test of your hypothesis tells us that we should ignore all the TV ratings and crowd numbers but rather look at a trend from a small handful of your (no doubt long suffering) family who now may or may not know the names of more than a few Wallabies.
Wow, the sky is the limit.
DogsOfWar said | June 18th 2009 @ 7:26am | Report comment
Mike – Have a look at the ratings for Union Tests on Free to Air, they have been going backwards for the past few years. Foxtel ratings for Super 14 comes in about the same as Toyota Cup matches. So although you may have a “feeling” that interest in Union is increasing, the key indicators suggest a different trend, though a lot of that may have been due to how the game changed due to the ELV’s and that the Aussie teams went poorly in general, except the Tahs but they were horrible to watch.
Mike said | June 18th 2009 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Fair comment, DogsofWar.
Also, League culture tends to be divided into a number of semi-independent sub-cultures – there is no guarantee that my observations (not feelings) apply in other groups, just as there is no guarantee as to where they will lead. Even if League suffers loss of support, that doesn’t necessarily translate into support for Union. I have also seen an increase in interest in soccer during the same period.
For those who want figures, any market research on intentions/opinions of League fans would be right on point. Anyone know of any?
DogsOfWar said | June 18th 2009 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Both League and Union fans have there second code of support down as Soccer/Football by an overwhelming percentage (over 60%). With League/Union support as a second code for those supporters around the 15% mark. So the crossover is very small, which is surprising (though probably not considering the code wars between them).
I am glad I am one of those 15% that appreciate the fine points of both.
Siren's Call said | June 18th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Read today’s papers Mike? RU & AFL crowds and tv audiences down, while NRL and Origin is up. You’re toasted!
Mike said | June 18th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Siren’s call,
This is certainly relevant stuff, not like what previous posters referred to. Here is the relevant bit from the Courier Mail this morning:
“The NRL is trumpeting an increase in crowds and television ratings for 2009.
The league says crowds are up five per cent on the same time last year and have totalled 1,688,948 so far in 2009.
It says game one of the State of Origin series reached a record average of 2.322 million viewers across the five capital cities, 177,000 better than the previous best, for game three last year.
Weekly television ratings for NRL games are up 21.7 per cent in Brisbane and 14.2 per cent in Sydney.
And club memberships have grown 27 per cent with nine of the league’s 16 clubs achieving record numbers….”
So, not independent research, but presumably the NRL wouldn’t fib about these things. So the things I am observing certainly are not translating into reduced practical support at present – quite the opposite.
Another thing that will interest the Leaguies is research out this week to effect that 40% of league fans were women in 2008, and this has risen by 2% in the first quarter of this year – it will soon rival AFL. Admittedly, the research was done by the wife of the Australian test coach (Lynne Anderson) but no reason to doubt its accuracy.
Rolling Maul said | June 18th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Mike – honestly… ‘the league wouldn’t fib’? Pull your head out of the sand.
With all the bad press the NRL has had over the last few months.. I’d be surprised if they themselves put out bad figures and PR backing up the ‘NRL is in serious trouble’ claims.
More spin than one S.Warne my friend… wake up to it… DAMAGE CONTROL!!!
Record Numbers… More Women in the game (… and thats not including the ones who are going through the courts or ‘accidently’ being punched by CEO’s)… Origin is up.. its all sun and good weather here at NRL HQ.. yes sir… nothing but sun and glory while we have people who buy our PR crap.
Good to see they aren’t wasting their money though.. while there are people out there who lap it up.
Mike said | June 18th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Damn you, RM, and I was keeping such a straight face!
14.2% increase in Sydney weekly viewing figures YOY – I think that would be a record for any code in the history of television.
Anyway, people have got some “figures” now so they should be happy…!
Lewie said | June 18th 2009 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
there is a theory…..i base this on anecdotal evidence of course, because i want to keep the Union fans interested…..the theory goes that Union is followed by the elite, the educated, the successful, the intelligent….whilst League (mungos) is for the….well, the opposite of all that there smartness ‘n stuff (mungos).
i want to heartily congratulate you Mike and Rolling Maul. You have truly broken the mould.
Rolling Maul said | June 18th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
LOL – Lewie… just to clarify… you are saying that both myself and Mike fall into the mungo category?
Crosscoder said | June 19th 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Mike.
You may well have been brought up in a rl family,and I spent my teenage years playing union,but what the hell has that to do with stats.
The figures on the IRB say the 4.2b is an ESTIMATE’ The figure of 33million for the final is quoted on many sites.The comment about 97% coming from 8 foundation countries,was in a NZ article ,and from memory it was Stu Wilson the former AB who stated ru has a lot of work to do based on those figures”.
And as for your on an anecdotal basis that “League is trending downwards and union is upwards,let also give you the latest figures for the NRL to hand, bums on seats and viewers.
Figures quoted not only by the NRL(18/6/09 but referred to by an AFL journo Tim Morrissey(june 18/09
“NRL crowds are up 5% ,the game’s weekly Tv ratings are up 14.2% in sydney and 21.7% in Brisbane.club memberships have grown 27% and this is half way through a year 2009,in a crappy economic environment”.Soo1 a record Tv rater.
The league also claims an increase in the number of women interested in the game’.
Now if those figures are “anecdotal evidence” of a game in decline,then I am an astronaut.
Believe the IRB and doubt the NRL take your pick.
And if you are talking about union trending upwards refer to a story in the herald sun March 27th 09″turn off for viewers”in which the statment wa the S14 comp has become so boring for pay TV viewers the NRL’s unglamorous under 20s comp is starting to breathe down its neck.Then we get in the same story a dopey remark from the NSWRU CEO L’Estrange he was unaware of the TV ratings-
A CEO unaware LOL.That is like saying a bank manager is unaware his building holds cash.
Read the stories in NZ about the crowd numbers for S14 and Tv ratings dropping,and AB Jeremy Kaino admitting his sisters rather watch the warriors.The crowds for s14 in Oz were in decline.
But the creme de creme for me was a story written by Brian Lowe on 25/3/09 for AmericanRugbyNews.com(a union site not rl)I will quote a couple of paras.
“I have been back in Australia for the last little while<i have been able to watch the S14,NRL andESL,very often on the same day,and to my mind its obvious_ rugby league by far and away the best product.
The fact of the matter is that while league possesses all the qualities that football fan craves,its also a much faster game with fewer stoppages.Although those purists might not like to hear it,rugby union is way too stop-start,it’s way too officiated,and it has become a kick fest”.
Now we can all argue the merits or otherwise of a sport,but your comments as to rl being” beleaguered’ “dummed down” and “tracking downward by your anecdotal evidence” is looking rather hollow.
NB to show that rl is hardly standing still for the first time a team from the rugby union school St Stanislaus Bathurst is vying for a spot in the schoolboy ARRIVE ALIVE cUP.
Yep!anecdotal evidence can be a strange commodity at times.
Mike said | June 19th 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
Excellent, you are proving my point in spades.
I agree with you, the NRL figures released yesterday are ENTIRELY credible! 14.2% audience increase in Sydney and 21.7% in Brisbane etc. I will never doubt them, promise.
And the survey showing increasing support from women, which was done by the wife of the Australian league coach – I believe every word of it! I do, I do.
“the figure of 33 Million for the final is quoted on many sites”
Yes, yes, I agree. That clinches it. I will never again refer to the original independent report, I will never again point out that 33 million was home-viewers only, and above all, I will never ever ever EVER repeat again that the RWC2007 final was the fourth most-watched sporting event in the world that year. I promise, cross my heart and hope to pack down against Carl Hayman in a bad mood if I lie.
There. Happy now? Can I go my room and fondle my Wallabies scarf in peace?
Crosscoder said | June 19th 2009 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Mike.
Exhibiting a better sidestep than a Campese, when presented with data.Translation: union data fully credible, rugby league data not believable.
The wife of a former(operative word) Australian rugby league coach ,whose husband actually coached union in Wales,and whose son played union for Sthn Districts,and who is assisting Sth Districts ru.Always like to get the full story.The same coach given the flick by Cronulla and gave up on the Roosters.
Based on anecdotal evidence you probably will fondle your Wallabies scarf.
You keep on hoping,wishing and praying rl is tracking downwards, and meanwhile the rest of us dreaded leaguies as you like to call us,will continue to get on with our sporting life.Yes some of us watch an occasional union test,not because of a former rl player being involved,but try patriotism.
SBW and Timan Tahu and (where’s my Willie )Mason possibly going to union,has not resulted in rl people switching to union.
Union S14 crowds and ratings down,the reverse situation for the NRL.Go blame the TV stations and Oztam and attendees at games.
Nowhere have you shown where union is tracking upwards at league’s expense. So you are correct I am more than happy,with the way rugby league is tracking,both locally and overseas.
Thank you linesmen,thank you ballboys.
Mike said | June 19th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I do want you to be happy. And I did make very clear that I accept the latest NRL claims unreservedly, entirely and utterly, and I do not question them one little bit, so that should make you even happier.
And if I had any reservations at all, your reference to Willie Mason has wiped them out – the final ultimate argument!
(Please nobody tell Carl Hayman I took his name in vain…)
Rolling Maul said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
I watch both League and Rugby – they are different games!
I also watch soccer, some cricket… no AFL but I don’t mind going to the odd live match.. Gaelic football is a good watch as is hurling… I draw the line at curling.
I’m sure we can appreciate good skills in any particular sport/code.
I don’t think Rugby has been all that exciting recently but then there were YEARS where League did nothing for me as well. I know rugby will turn the corner and produce some excitement – the world cup isn’t that far off now.
I’m going to watch the ‘84 grand slam again…
Mike said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:02am | Report comment
and fondle his scarf…
)
Pippinu said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Any team sport that uses brooms has serious issues.
Rolling Maul said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Pippinu – never thought of it like that…
My mum could be a gold medal contender for London… I’m calling her now!
Crosscoder said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Mike
Thanks for showing a genuine concern for my happiness,it will be duly noted and kept for posterity.There should be more love in this world.
When where’s Willie makes the switch,based on previous performances,the union media will go into their usual lather.The cheersquads (ie the roosters fans and many rl fans),will be getting down on their knees to give thanks.Then maybe the game can get back on the headlines for the right reasons.
You could have commmitted the ultimate atrocity and taken Richard Lowe’s name in vain.
BTW champ if you checked my posts none disputed the fact the RWC was the 4th biggest tournament,none disputed the fact that union was a global(albeit not ingrained in the culture as soccer is and small in many others) game of many countries,none disputed the fact union had a far bigger global presence than rugby league.
I am not alone in treating the 4.2 billion viewers with cynicism,and am not alone in showing that rl is not tracking downwards,based on raw data. And I am not alone in stating rugby league is being played in more countries than at any time in its history,despite the fact ru tried to kill it off in a couple of countries,and is making it difficult in others eg Norway/Holland.
When figures are presented to moi,that rl is indeed tracking downwards and there is a huge rush to ru because of players switching,then I will applaud the good ship rah rah.
Mike said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I agree! In fact, I’m so enthused I’m going to post the Courier Mail article again. Here it is!!!!!!
“The NRL is trumpeting an increase in crowds and television ratings for 2009.
The league says crowds are up five per cent on the same time last year and have totalled 1,688,948 so far in 2009.
It says game one of the State of Origin series reached a record average of 2.322 million viewers across the five capital cities, 177,000 better than the previous best, for game three last year.
Weekly television ratings for NRL games are up 21.7 per cent in Brisbane and 14.2 per cent in Sydney.
And club memberships have grown 27 per cent with nine of the league’s 16 clubs achieving record numbers….”
I didn’t want anyone to miss it….!
Crosscoder said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Mike
Couldn’t have said it better myself.The cheque from the publicised Cronulla supporter is in the mail for your services to NRL marketing.
Should i get him, to make it out to Mike or Fitzy.
Mike said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:25am | Report comment
“Fitzy”? How do you accuse me of making fun of the NRL figures?!?! Nothing was further from my mind…
*sees Carl Hayman-shaped shadow at the door and runs*
Crosscoder said | June 19th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Mike.
Accuse? LIL Ole Moi ! Thee has been slammed dunked by the NRL figures,and Joe average(wherever he may reside) knows full well ‘taking the mickey or the pxxx is not your go”.Much the same as Japanese whaling is for scientific purposes only.
John Ryan said | June 19th 2009 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Mike so your saying the Ratings on FTA TV are a lie,that,s interesting when you rely on the same ones for RU,run by variations of the same type of company.
And of Course FOX is also part of the vast conspiracy to keep RU down,very odd indeed
sportsfanslife.com said | June 19th 2009 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Wow Steve, who’d have thought an obvious piss take such as this article would generate all this?!?!?! As you say, you’ll never die wondering…Can’t say the same for all the effigies of you that must be burning in the streets after reading this. I love Sonny Bill, I think he is an amazing athlete and will go on to prove plenty of people wrong (and many right also) about him…..but hey, what do I know? I am also a Mundine fan, that’s right A MUNDINE FAN….Now THAT should take some of the heat off you…haha
Thank me later Champ….
Tom Alexander. said | June 19th 2009 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
Gower will be the one to watch seems to have a bit more nous about him eventhough the scoreline was a bit lopsided it was still a pretty good effort considering it was his first international test with language difficulties aswell against one of the best teams in World Rugby i have a feeling he will be one of the few successfull converts.
Rolling Maul said | June 19th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Totally agree Tom – Gower can read the play well and showed that last week. That change of play is something that the Wallabies tend to lack, and by their own admission, prefer a more predictable and safe style. I thought his try last week with the flick pass was inspired and something you used to see in Rugby years ago but not anymore – I guess you can get away with it if it doesn’t come off if you are playing for Italy.
How big were their front row though!!!
Anthony Abrahams said | June 21st 2009 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Gosh Steve; that really must have turned the knife in Mr Williams wounds – unless of course it was too subtle. Do you think that such a fine (“fine” as in French meaning subtle, rapier like in its point-making) article will get through to those readers of airport novels that surely make up the bulk of your “readership”?
[comment edited]
Crosscoder said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:21am | Report comment
A.A.
And of course as we followers (some of us part time) of the “game they play in heaven”),either don’t know or are quite willing to ignore the “rape and pillage” of the cream of leegie talent in France ,by French union clubs when the game was supposedly amateur, from 46 up to 96.Dare I even suggest the French ru tried ti kill off rl in France in 1941,and secure their assets in 1946.Nor would I make a preposterous statement, that rugby league was not permitted to use the name rugby in its title ,until the latter part of the 20th century.
Betrayal and loss happens on both sides of the sporting equator,as history has shown.Some of us tend to ignore the fact,as a matter of convenience.
The Answer said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Anthony,
Seeing you are such a fan of good writing and clearly believe your own education to be so superior, perhaps it may serve you to learn how to spell.
Even someone who promotes themselves as an ex-international can be served by the basics of English.
sportsfanslife.com said | June 22nd 2009 @ 8:00am | Report comment
This article WAS taking the piss, right? Sure, Steve isn’t sending SBW a Christmas card, that much is obvious. But aren’t we, as Australians, supposed to be programmed to detect the taking of the piss? Seems some take things, and perhaps themselves, a little too seriously….Go hard SBW, keep up with the baby oil application (it’s really doing wonders), stick with Choc (the public are warming to him, like they are you) and all will be ok…
Oh, and Anthony, love your work with the dictionary, something special…what’s the next cause for which you will be fighting the good literary fight? I’m on board!
Anthony Abrahams said | June 22nd 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Don’t know if this is the correct space for response but if it is here they are:
“Crosscoder”: Rugby Union behaviour in France (where I played for 3 years and lived for 24) was worse than you say. Essentially, violence causd their banning from the 5 Nations. But you draw a long bow when you compare French “sporting” approaches to Australian ones. I doubt whether any Australian League supporter through the years would talk in terms of “loss” on the basis of the history you (perfectly correctly) mention. But all this of course ignores the silliness over Williams.
To the “Answer”: Of course you are correct. A first-time user (me) inexcusably pressed the wrong button before editing. Don’t worry, Steve received a corrected version, sent via someone who can write and whose visceral emotions are never laid out in silly articles. As one writer, close to the Roar observed, “when a journalist writes an open letter he has nothing to say”. AA
Steve Kaless said | June 22nd 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
Actually Anthony, I haven’t received an edited version “from someone who could write”. I take it to mean that wasn’t yourself then but a third party having only seen your first effort.
Don’t worry I understand, seeing it took more than two weeks to come up with the first draft god knows how long it would have taken for you to weed out all the spelling and grammatical mistakes.
Obviously the dictionary had come out for the first paragraph, but after a while pawing away at the screen and reading out aloud what you written simply became too much.
Fear not, Anthony, you truly made my day. While your letter was obviously an attempt to belittle the intelligence of myself and anyone else who dares to follow rugby league, what I got was an insight into a small section of your code’s psyche.
We are the elite and our game is a serious one played by gentleman handed picked by other gentleman, do not laugh at us, this is serious, serious business. Our mummies and daddies paid good money for our schooling. Do not laugh.
What a pity that schooling did not cover basic english.
But thank you again Anthony, your mummy and daddy are right, you are a very special flower.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:26pm | Report comment
Steve I do seem to have hit a nerve which I feel you deserve. I wont make a second comment in sarcastic mode, as you have, but will attempt to address in sincere terms what I think th issue is. First I’m surprised you havent recieved the corrected version of my text as it was sent to your colleague Spiro, one sports writer who writes consistently to the level of his calling and who is one of the Rugby crowd who you demean in such cliched terms.Having hit the wrong button in my first use of the Roar I decided to correct this by the courtesy of having Spiro pass on the final text, which he probably will in due course.The issue Steve is writing, not League. If you decide to employ buckets of hyperbole then it has to fly lightly; your stuff has feet of clay. Look at your ill-judged reply tonight. The last thing a good journo should do is to come down from his high ground and give the impression of having been provoked by a reader’s letter.To reply in sarcastic terms – which is indeed a low form of wit – is doubly questionable.You hold the power because you “own” the column.We rude mechanicals have to make do with the scraps of limited space.It’s no excuse to claim that sport is “populist” (League more than most).Look at Les Carlyon on Racing or Joyce Carol Oates on Boxing; or any number of great US sports writers. THINK ABOUT IT. Your reply tonight was written in the same silly, bitter terms as your letter on Wlliams.I, for one think that’s embarassing for you. My note was patronising because this is what you get provoked by.And by the way if you cant forgive unedited mistakes by a first timer pressing the wrong button, look at your own text and see if you can see the spelling mistake. Then excuse yourself, as emails are like that – sent before you’re ready.Or was it just because you can’t spell – as you would say?A final point;your comment came in about ten minutes ago.If I took two weeks to prepare my first paragraph then what price the speed of my second attempt? Spend the night reading Les Carlyon Steve and then have another go at writing about Williams. AA
Anthony Abrahams said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
Post Scriptum:
Steve Before you succumb to throwing toys out of the crib again might I correct “receive” in my text (deliberately trailed of course to see if this particular fly could get you to rise and swallow whole! ). AA
Crosscoder said | June 22nd 2009 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
Anthony Abrahams.
The sole purpose of mentioning French poaching of rl players,was simply to highlight the fact ,it was not a one way street.I see and hear the public bleatings from people in rugby union,about rugby league poaching their players,but seemingly oblivious to the fact ,it happened to rugby league players,albeit in another country where the game was supposedly amateur.The fact that SBW trundled over to that very same country,for me at least the irony is not lost, nor is the relevance in some way.
Most rugby league supporters would indeed be unaware of the situation in France.Up til about 6 years ago I was one of them.It should not therefore detract from the fact that a member of the ru poached rl players.Research and reading recommended accounts certainly opened my eyes.
I trust you were not playing ru in France in the 40s ,because what happened to rugby league then ,was appalling ,and would leave subsequent misdeeds in their wake. And I am not talking their banning from the 5 nations.
SBW back on course,made his bed,he left the game with a fair bit of acrimony.At least Gasnier went the proper way,and he is to be congratulated.The fact the Bulldogs ride astride the head of the NRL ladder,play an open attractive brand of football,have vastly increased crowds,suggests the club has responded in kind to SBW’s move.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 22nd 2009 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
Many thanks for your comment with which I am, again, in broad agreement. Not that it’s all that important but I don’t thnk it could be said to show that “it’s not a one way street”. I said that the French were banned from the 5 Nations “essentially” because of violence.Opinions differ as to whether it was predominantly violence or professionalism.It was certainly both, which shows that it wasn’t “Rugby” at whose door the issue can be laid. It was “French” Rugby; and it was overwhelmingly “French”. Rugby threw them out. But the “sin” of payments continued with some good players in each club.In mine (if its of interest to you) – the RC de France – I wasnt sure whether it was cash or just board and lodging for those who “mounted” (as they termed it) up to Paris from the South. But in other clubs they may have been paid – nothing big I suspect but paid nevertheless. But,as I said the issue of “rape and pillage” wasn’t my reason for writing.I just think that journos like Steve let themselves down with such porridge.The art of sports journalism is a great one and I feel it is beneath that art to write in such a heavy-handed and obvious way. League lovers need not leap to Steve’s defence. After all, as I said above, he “owns” – and generally controls – the column. And every time he replies in sarcastic mode he makes himself appear more defensive and sews the seeds of doubt in a few more readers minds as to his effectiveness.I’m sure he’s capable of better – and, if that sounds patronising, I apologise. However, Steve, you have brought it on yourself.But the point’s been made; isn’t it time to give it a rest (including by me)?
Steve Kaless said | June 22nd 2009 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
AA,
From your ‘recommended reading’ list it does seem that you like a certain style, or flavour, of sports journalism. That is fine and you have certainly referred to some greats. However, not everyone likes the same thing, which my article on SBW (which is just one of many on rugby league on the Roar) and the varying comments shows.
However, I’m not sure this is the right forum to continue this discussion. I’ll await your reviewed comments and once I receive them perhaps we can continue to discuss the matter, if necessary, then.
Cheers
Crosscoder said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
AA
Understand your points on the FRU and banning due to violence and payments.I am sure if it was just a matter of rl players being poached,there would have been no such banning.
However the issue with SBW and him going to France (with no notice),bears a relationship(and a relevancy IMO) with payments being made by French clubs(during the amateur years)in poaching rl players and nothing to do with violence.
Might I suggest ,if these raids on the local rl players had not been made from 46 onwards:
a) the French rugby league at least from the 50s and beyond would have been much more competitve and dare I say it a force in rugby league.
b) the game in that country would have a much higher profile than it does today.
c) if the rugby X111 had retained the 300,000 French francs they had in the bank before the code was banned in 41,they may have been able to fend of some of the said raids.
When intnl rugby league is discussed at times,rugby union people tend to laugh at the lack of strength in the nations involved.Might they do a little research into French rugby league history for starters ,and they will get part of the answer.
One of the same gents who got on his high horse on Tv radio and print,bleating and moralising about rl poaching (as if it was unique to one code)and praising SBW,was a former Wallaby,who ironically spent a fair amount of time in France.I say no more.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 23rd 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
This is my second start on what I had almost finished when the text was lost, I may be more curt this time and apologise. I was saying that this really must be my last exchange (I still practice French legal matters and have one running hard at present – I mentioin that in part as an indirect way of saying that you can read all you wish about this well-known subject but there is no substitute for really understanding a country than by living there). Also, I would reply “off-camera”, as it were, but there is no facility for this, particularly when, for reasons that I find regrettable in the case of someone making sense, you choose to take refuge behind anonymity (as an aside, I think you and others should think about the impression this makes in an open society). Let us deal with this in note form (as you have): (i) You are still struggling to link “Rugby” generally to your prosecution. There was no one else in or outside the warehouse but Lee Harvey Oswald. You totally underestimate the obsession of British sport throughout most of the century with amateurism (think Harold Abrahams’ coach; Avery Brundage a little later and the MCC much later and countless – COUNTLESS – other examples in sport generally and in rugby). (ii) Even in France the salaries were selective and not big. All I can say personally is that, as an ex International of 26 years of age I played for nothing – Zilch – and was never offered anything. Cynics will say that this was because I was no threat to go to League but most were like me. This is an invalid point in a way because you totally ignore that all the salaries might have done was to persuade players that they could play rugby and survive, They were no greater than in French league and probably less. So what are you actually saying – that League should have been allowed to pursue its unfair advantage? This is very twisted reaoning and does not, in my view, amount to your “two-way street” argument (even in France) (iii) You misunderstand the differences in France – a “decadent” culture as opposed to a “puritanical” one – and you totally misunderstand the populist nature of Rugby in France as opposed to its sociological roots elsewhere (which, in an amusingly cliched manner, Rugby League writers and supporters still trot out every time they are trying to wound). THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE PEASANT VILLAGE PLAYING LEAGUE AND ANOTHER PLAYING UNION. They all worked the fields or for the SNCF (Frencjh rail ) etc. (iv) whilst you will say that this changes nothing; it still happened, I think you are clutching at straws. I strongly suspect – and I know this is controversial – that the structure of the game and something about it generally would not have appealed to most countries. It “might” well have worked in France but the state centric nature of sport in that country and the post-war dominance of the Gaullists would probably have ensured its moribund state. (v) I say again that THIS WHOLE DEBATE HAS REALLY BEEN, AS THE FRENCH WOULD SAY, AUSTRALO-AUSTRALIEN”. As I have attempted to show, the issue in France was, as the French would also say, “Franco-Francais”. Et ca, mon cher, est tout ce que j’ai a dire a ce sujet. Adieu AA
Rolling Maul said | June 23rd 2009 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Anthony Abrahams – are you sure you aren’t a Merchant Banker who has discovered that not only does the internet provide porn.. but also Google Translations> But alas… you haven’t discovered spell check thus far.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 23rd 2009 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Peut-etre voulez-vous que nous ayons un entretien entierement en francais (always withou a capital “F” in this context). Ou tout comme avec votre anonymite avez-vous peur de rendre transparente votre stupidite?
I wouldnt try to get a translation of this from Google-for-monolinguals (which judging by the limited intelligence of your comment I would guess you are ) as I gather Google is as inadequate in the domain of translation as someone who hides behind the name “Rolling Maul” must be in real life. Clearly I haven’t discovered spell check but what I have discovered is that at my age a cataract doesnt render the examination of print in the “Roar” as easier as knocking of comments like yours. Have the courage to sign yourself – as I am doing :A Abrahams.
PS I wont be replying to any more of these comments. Have you nothing more constructive to say about a subject as interesting as Rugby League in France? At least Cross Code – despite his anonymity – is a reasoning sort of person. i apologise for being deliberately patronising but responses like yours arre so silly as to make the Roar an embarassment. I dont know where you get the idea that such cliched mud is clever. Think a bit (if that’s possible).
Rolling Maul said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Anthony Abrahams – I don’t think its your cataracts that are holding you back, more the absence of a sense of humour.
Mike said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Crosscoder keeps banging on about an obscure episode in French rugby history, but poaching of players by League has gone on in this country (meaning Australia, not France!) since 1908. That is rather more relevant than a narrow period of time in a country 10,000 miles away.
The League clubs did what they were entitled to do. And of course, no-one suggests that League suffered as a result. Obviously they wouldn’t have kept doing it over almost a century if it was hurting their code.
Anyway, now its an open market, and indeed a global market, and there is no particular advantage to either code.
I hope for the good of both codes that we see more League players going to Rugby. As someone has pointed out on another thread, Rugby needs to be poaching the League playmakers, rather than just their wingers.
As for Sonny Bill, he did well in a high-level exhibition match. He has grown up in an All-Black supporting family, so hopefully he will eventually realise that dream, but he has a lot of work to do yet.
sportsfanslife.com said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Shame that The Roar readership seems to have drawn a line, either side of which stand two rather passionate groups of supporters of either code. What we are missing out on for the large part, is the chance for various members of either group to share their informed opinions on either code (no matter the side of the line they are on) in a forum such as this site was obviously designed for. Doesn’t take long in many posts for readers comments to degenerate into a mud slinging contest, and here we are debating the ability of a journalist who has the audacitiy to use such a low form of wit as sarcasm!
Well, I enjoy sarcasm, perhaps because I am both able to detect it and take it for what it is. I also love Rugby League, and respect Rugby Union and all that each code has to offer.I don’t have agreat understanding of Union, but I am trying to learn, fast, because I can see the game can be very entertaining and would be even moreso if I had a better understanding of the intracacies. I am not about to run anyone down because they love their respective code, nor would I expect to receive the same for writing about my own favourites.
We are all able to be part of a great forum on The Roar and similar sites, no one has to be right or wrong all the time, and sometimes, we even make spelling, or shock horror, grammatical errors. But we are all sports fans, right?
I’d hate to see some of the contributors here debating sport over a drink at the pub, it’d be handbags at 10 o’clock!
I thougt the article was a light hearted read about an athlete of which I am an unabashed fan, regardless of some of his decisions. Sure the author may not be as big a fan of SBW as me, but that’s why we are all here, isn’t it? If we all thought the same way, it’d be a boring old sporting landscape….and I’d probably support the Broncos (hmmm, maybe not).
Anthony Abrahams said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
To the wholley drole Rolling Maul. Ah! So humour is what you think you’re displaying? Or do you want a lesson on Writing Humour as well as on Good Sports Writing? The end.
Rolling Maul said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Anthony Abrahams – you promised you wouldn’t write anymore Anthony.. come on now.. off to bed.
Mike said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Sportsfanslife,
We all grew up with that. I support Easts and whoever’s playing Manly. Much to my chagrin, that changed when Manly faced off against Melbourne in a grand final – I never thought I could do it (support Manly). Must be getting old.
sportsfanslife.com said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Well Mike, as a former Western Suburbs Magpie, raised in Campbelltown and having grown up travelling here, there and everywhere to watch my heroes get pumped almost every week, I must say I shuddered when I cheered those Eagles home last year, especially Menzies. My Father would have turned in his grave!!!
Good to see there are some senses of humour still rolling round The Roar, it this that is one of this site’s strongest suits, the charachters that take in everyones opinions, can detect a yarn when they see one, and have some fun along the way. All the while debating in favour of their chosen following. Cheers
Lewie said | June 23rd 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
“poaching players” (questionable, overstated, and in many cases a fraudulent examination of players transferring codes from Union to League over the past century) is vastly different to administrators conspiring to rob the physical and monetary assets of another code.
Rugby League is accused of “poaching” Union players. However, League was offering professionalism in the form of monetary remuneration, something Union was not able to offer. Poaching is defined as an illegal act, and/or an unfair act, and/or to trespass. None of these terms remotely relate to rugby players transferring from Union to League.
Mike
yes, it may be an obscure episode in French Rugby Union history, but it most certainly is not an obscure episode of French Rugby League history, rather a defining landmark, and Crosscoder does well to remind myopic (perhaps it’s the cataracts) Rugby folk of this distasteful history lesson.
Mike said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Lewie,
I doubt that any episodes of French history over that short period had any effect or bearing in Australia, even at the time. Its just irrelevant. An obscure brief period in a country 10,000 miles away.
I wouldn’t say Rugby League is “accused” of anything. Its just a fact that Union effectively became the feeder code for League over a period of about 90 years.
Now, professionalism has levelled things out, plus the reality of a world market. As I think you pointed out last week, even Rugby League has a world dimension to it now.
There have always been limits to the enforceability of contracts of personal service, such as football contracts. Neither league nor union players are locked in to any great degree. Even the process of taking out an injunction against SBW when he moved to union had little prospects of success, more for show than anything else.
In fact, the biggest restraint on poaching of players (and I use the term “poach” without any pejorative overtone) is the codes themselves – if Sonny Bill Williams had been a rugby professional it would have been very difficult for French rugby to get him before he was off contract, but as a League player it was open season.
Conversely, if the British league teams want to headhunt an Australian union player who is still on contract, there is little to stop them, whereas it would be very difficult for them to hunt an Australian league player.
Its just the reality of the world we live in.
Lewie said | June 23rd 2009 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
Fair comments Mike, though i would point out that the early to mid 1940’s is hardly an obscure brief period in France’s history.
It is difficult to speculate what may have become of League in France had their assets and grounds not been confiscated. Whilst there is apparently some evidence to show it had exceeded Union as the more popular of the Rugby codes, given the volatility of the time, who’s to say what effect the war would have had anyway. But possibly the ramifications could have been felt here in Australia.
I don’t care to worry about it too much. I only ever raise it to retalitate at Union fan’s whining about League poaching players. The moral high ground Union claims is preposterous in my opinion, and for anyone who would care to doubt this exists, just read any of Fitzsimons borathons in the SMH.
for the record, i took time to watch quite a bit of Rugby on the tv last weekend. I caught the final 20 minutes or so of the club rugby between the Marlins and Eastwood. Thoroughly enjoyed every moment. There’s something so much more enjoybale about Rugby when it’s played (not meaning to stoke any fires here) amatuerishly (yes, i’m aware some, if not all of them are being paid) if you know what i mean. The spectacle of players covered in mud, barely identifiable from each other……gets me all misty eyed reminiscing about days of yore. All the football codes on their manicured, well-drained turf pitches….just doesn’t evoke the battle imagery nearly as well as a quagmire. I also watched the majority of the Wallabies v Italy test. I’m done bagging the game, so i’ll put forward a theory instead as to why i no longer enjoy Wallaby matches as i once did (i can still name most of the victorious 1991 WC team). I don’t have access to Pay TV, only FTA. I therefore see no Super 14 games. I therefore know very few current Rugby players. Not knowing the players, i become detached from supporting them. From that Wallaby team on Saturday, i knew just three in the starting team to look at, and two of them it’s because they’re ex-Leaguies, and knew a further three that were listed on the bench. Anyway, hardly an Earth-shattering hypothesis, i know, and duly noted you’ve put forward a similar theory as to why Union’s ratings and crowds have slipped,but that’s my excuse, and i’m sticking to it.
Working Class Rugger said | June 23rd 2009 @ 10:17pm | Report comment
Lewie
Keep watching the Shute Shield to see what Rugby is really all about.
Lewie said | June 23rd 2009 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
i certainly will Working Class Rugger, especially on miserable, rainy satdee arvos.
My nine year old son walked in to the room, looked at the tv, turned to me and said “dad, what’s wrong with them? What’s all that stuff on them”. I said “that’s mud mate”….true story.
i weep for our youth.
Crosscoder said | June 24th 2009 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Mike
Obscure period in French history!.Yes ,for those whose code was not on the receiving end perhaps. ! that is why a group called X111 Actif was formed to seek redress from the govt.
The following is so obscure, just a figment of one’s imagination it seems.
1941-1946 rl was banned in France due to union officials lobbying the vichy govt.There were in fact 200 French rl clubs prior to the occupation of that country.Their assets seized,handed over in 1946 to ru.The game of rugby league was not officlally allowed to use “rugby” in its title until the latter part of the 20th century.PE teachers could teach any sport in French schools except rugby league.The fact the game did not receive official govt recognition,they received no gvt grants or support.
Rugby league players were poached by French union clubs for decades from the late 40s til the present(ie during 50 years of supposed amateurism ).A French socialist govt commission “Sport under Vichy ” was commissioned ubder Mme Buffett,and found in 2002 ,that rugby union had conspired to have rugby league banned.On December 19th 2005,X111 Actif Chair and French rl historian Robert Fassolette wrote to the French PM de Villepin,after hearing Villepin admit in December,” there were still wartime issues to be faced properly, not swept away”. Surprising thing about obscurity,sometimes gets a govt thinking.
Any effect on Australia?.Well a weakened French rugby league as a result of the shennnakins,meant visiting French rl teams were so weakend as to be thrashed and French rl tests became a thing of the past in Oz.That tends to suggest it affected rl in oz and intnl rl.
When one uses the moral high ground to argue that rl poached union players in Oz that is Ok and I agree it was done.At the same we must also realise, that a member union has done the reverse.
It also rings rather hollow when Oz rugby union players had sojourns during the amateur years in France and italy.To suggest that a D Campese visited for a bowl of spaghetti is a laughable.
When i attended a private ru playing school,and was constantly reminded of the proud amateur tradition of rugby,and found in real life the opposite ,my cynicism developed.I still watch ru at test level though.
Contracts agree are pretty much unenforcable.The situation with SBW , note he had only recently before his departure,extended his contract,and left mid stream .Did not even wait till the end of this year at least.Should a Giteau or Mortlock do something similar, there would be merry hell to play.The moral high ground works both ways in France/Oz .the world is now a small place.
If there is any good to come out of poaching players union or league by the French union clubs,now totalling 330 out of 1,100 is that the poor old French rugby league is now generally left alone.Thanks to Les Catalans in the SL and Toulouse in NL1.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 24th 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Crosscoder I regret coming back into this as it goes round and round but am unfortunately receiving the contributions as emails ( which I will now prevent). Your resume of the history of RL and Vichy is correct – and indeed, if one were to push to its limits the methodology that you unintentionally (I think) employ then the story could assist what you are doing even more. Vichy and everything to do with it is a scar on France which only slowly began to heal when la France Moderne began circa 1970 (see the extraordinary effect of the Ophul’s documentary “Le Chagrin et la Pitie” in that year) and the story on many fronts is terrible. Again the behaviour of French Rugby (outside anything to do wih League) in many areas over the years is something that should fan the flames of indignation in any fair person. That is why, amongst other reasons, I find it difficult to support France in rugby even having lived there for so long. But, once again, the logic of your argument seems dependant on slipping through very narrow doors. You “generate” moral high ground by mentioning Vichy and then you recount a litany of sins of French Rugby which you then lay at the door of ALL Rugby. To repeat (in part) my previous emails, the narrow doors in question are:(I) Vichy existed for 5 years. The problems for League began earlier than that (mid 1930s on its establishment) and went on for many years after – partly because even in France there was an entrenched aversion at govt level to professionalsm. Vichy makes a good moral argument but it wouldnt in any way have stopped a post-war recovery of the game. This was prevented in part by the fact that some Rugby players were paid. It was also because after the Fourth Republic you had Gaullist governmments. There was any number of legislative bars to league geting up off the ground throughout all this. But the point is that this was all totally French. Village v village, region v region, official v officail (also, read the legislative background to sport in France and you will see how removed it all is from any anglo country). (ii) If you were not clearly sincere i would say that your basic hypothesis is consciously sophistic (which I know is not true). From the beginning you seem to be crying “unfair” “two way street of poaching” because French (again: “French”) Union did (in some cases) what League everywhere has always done ie paid its players. Yes yes I know you are saying it is hypocrytical of a private schooler in Sydney Australia to strut the stuff of amatuerism when an officail in Languedoc, France in 1954 is stuffing notes into the boot of a Stade Toulousain player (what a long bow you draw) but the real fallacy of your argument is that you are undeniably saying “it was unfair for French village-based Rugby to do what French village-based League was doing and pay its players”. “If French village-based rugby hadn’t done that” you are saying ” then look at the players they would have got. It was unfair (you are saying) of French rugby to try and level the playing field of competition for players” (what a pity, admirers of Phil Hawthorn, Arthur Summons, Dick Thornet etc etc might say, that Aust Rugby didn’t have the same idea). (iii) It is also drawing a long bow (again to the point of sophism) to claim that a successful French league would have spread the game internationally. It seems to me that you really have to show why it is that with a 90 year professional jump on Rugby – during which entrepreneurism in sport reached massive heights and sports shoe manufacturers and others were able to bring sports on (or not) – the “universal appeal” of Rugby Leauge failed to gain a consistent foothold anywhere but in Australia (League in England has always been regionally confined -and there was no Vichy in England as far as I’m aware and there was certainly no payment of Rugby players). With great respect and although I acknowledge the worth of telling the French part of the story your arguments seem to me to depend on getting through those “narrow doors” without anyone noticing. Finally please, consider dong what someone as worthy as yourself should hold as important – standing up in your own name to make your arguments. After all, Vichy and its betrayals was based in great degree on anonymity. AA
Sean Fagan said | June 24th 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
To Anthony Abrahams re why RL never expanded etc.
Please name one major city in the Western world where RL could potentially have usurped the existing established professional football code? Please name one major city in the Western world that has EVER changed its primary allegiance from one professional code to another professional code. Meanwhile, lets leave out NZ as it was no economic powerhouse, and in SA rugby was a sport for the white community. Where are you suggesting RL could have spread as a pro sport? Melbourne? London?
As for areas where there was amateur RU, at no time did RL administrators treat RU as something to be rubbed out of existence. Are you suggesting that in hindsight RL (being a professional sport) should have used their financial wand to crush an amatuer sport? How good would that have looked in most fair-minded nations? The IRB/RFU decreed that any RU player to take up RL, even as an amateur, was to be banned from RU. No wonder fledgling amatuer RL in the 1950s in Italy & Canada found the obstacles too difficult to survive.
RL’s founding fathers all came from RU – they weren’t so bitter that they felt compelled to kill off their kindred brothers. Indeed, they took the view they were still playing “rugby”, and if RU turned pro then that would be a victory for RL – in other words, RU has joined RL – if not in name, then certainly in spirit.
So RL has in fact spread – it’s just that in some parts of the globe it is under the IRB and goes by the name of pro RU.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 24th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Sean
You seem to be addressing the ultimate question in my message (above) that I suggested Cross Coder (CC) (assuming you are another individual who has in fact used his own name – although C C does seem a decent bloke) needs to address viz: Why has RL not made inroads elsewhere? Without wanting to avoid your points my real concern re CC was with the sliding jumps in CCs position re France – and the false implications he ws able to deduce as a consequence, bordering as I said, on sophistry (even if unintentional). Without wanting to avoid your questions, I am more interested in the French issue than in the general one about RL. Frankly I get the feeling that since the world has gone professional the one draw-card for achieving universal appeal that this game really had has disappeared – money. In RL there seems to me – and apparently to many others – to be a lack of real options with the ball in hand and a reduced number of lines to run. Sets and possession and a dependency on the ref for “turnovers” make possession so vital that passing the ball seems taboo until the last desperate ten minutes of a close game with tiring players. The sizes of players seem a little uniform. Part of the proof of its limitations lies in the difficulty of players crossing into Union. Union players rarely seem to have had the same difficulty going in the reverse direction (although you may know a lot more about this than me). Also Rugby still seems to be able to generate a (perhaps false) ethic, some abstract idea that you probably dislike but is nevertheless there (still – somewhat). RL has no such ethic. It sort of did have, once, (but more based on anecdote and local loyalties than an expressed philosophy) and, since Super League there is a lot less of a tribal thing about its support base (also threatening union with the Super 14 eroding the club-based structure of the game). Finally Union professionals still tell me they love the game and the stuff surrounding it – which still exists – and even the travel. I dont think any single Union player has ever crossed to league because of anything other than dough; a few RL players I have dealt with re France seem to have a combination of reasons for wanting to change (even if money is primary). I just dont think RL has much of a chance of spreading now it cant buy in the extra skill it will need. I dont think that RU followers are particularly impassioned by this issue any more as they are entirely unthreatened by RL. The reverse doesn’t seem to be true. I realise that this message will probably precipitate a shout about all the things wrong with a bad game of union and the dead weight of its rules. I also realise that when it’s really on in a RL game it can be engrossing but, if your are one of the potential fans waiting to be convinced you still have to deal with the monotony of the sets and the simplicity of the options. To the unpracticed eye its difficult to watch the guys wriggling on the ground as they are held down and to see scrums which just don’t conform to the requirement that every aspect of a game should be contested. i suppose its useless to ask that you accept that I realise what you will want to say in reply – much of it true – just as nothing i’ve said here is in any way unknown to you. Can we nevertheless leave it there? I hope my tone is sufficuently relaxed for you to accept that I really do think this is an overworked subject (depsite the detail of my reply). yours sincerely
Sean Fagan said | June 24th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Anthony Abrahams – yes, I am posting under my own name.
Re ethic/philophosy – its subtle, but this article I wrote goes to the issue are referring to:
http://www.RL1908.com/articles/barbarians.htm
And for those who compare the rugby codes and can’t see “competition for the ball” in RL, an alternative view:
http://www.RL1908.com/blog/contests.htm
Pippinu said | June 24th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Interestingly, despite everything that has happened, and I do mean absolutely everything that could possibly beset any comp, the figures for league in Australia appear to be about as healthy as they have ever been in its 101 year history.
Rolling Maul said | June 24th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Pippinu – I think it comes down to the quality of the product at the end of the day and League is good to watch. Origin is consistently disappointing for me because I can watch any number of matches on a weekend that are up to and if not better in quality.
Pippinu said | June 24th 2009 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
RM
thanks for the response, but I actually found it hard to follow.
You start by talking up the quality but you seem close by talking it down – was that intentional? Have I misunderstood something?
Rolling Maul said | June 24th 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Its late in the day Pippinu and invoicing hurts my head I’m sorry.
I think League is a consistently quality game these days and its rare that I’ll sit down and watch a game and walk away thinking ‘that was a waste of time’. There were years gone by when there was a vast gulf between teams but its quite even these days and I find some of the teams outside the top of the table are the most entertaining to watch – ie.. any Friday night match with the Panthers at home is something I look forward to.
The downside for me is that Origin isn’t the highlight it used to be these days because I can watch a number of games each weekend which are at the same, if not better, level of quality.
In shorty.. the game has improved a lot!
Mike said | June 24th 2009 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Lewie,
I agree, there is something special about an amateur game, in any code. Smell of sausage sizzle, the kids allowed to take their footies on to the pitch at half-time, etc. And there is always the feeling that one of the young ones playing might be the next player of the century…
Mike said | June 24th 2009 @ 9:59pm | Report comment
Crosscoder,
I must have missed something – I couldn’t see any particular reason in your post as to why this was relevant to Australia (beyond what a couple of other posters had already pointed out). Anyway, feel free to enlighten me…
Crosscoder said | June 25th 2009 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Mike.
Appears you have missed something.Its called someone taking the moral high ground(insert player poaching) ,with their eyes wide shut)to use a pun.Or the Col Klink approch I nuthink.Trust you are enlightened.
Mike said | June 25th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Sorry crosscoder, I am not in the least enlightened. I didn’t take the moral high ground (go back and actually read some posts, instead of doing your usual thing and responding to what you think people wrote). Nor is there anything in your post to show why events in France in the 1940s have anything to do with a common practice in Australia since 1908. It just seems that you wanted to type a whole lot of words without any relationship to the issue under discussion. Still wondering.
Crosscoder said | June 25th 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
AA
I really am a decent chappie LOL.
Here are my views to support the case,that rugby league has been hogtied for decades restricting expansion intnlly.
BTW Sean has a far greater insight and knowledge of the sporting history of the codes,that I could learn in my lifetime.He is obviously Irish, I am French Huguenot descent (from a lil ole town called Nimes) and a sibling and his family living there for 30 odd years,hence my interest on the subject.He has also written a decent book on the rugby split.
Rugby league was restricted in its expansion as I have explained.
Banned in the British armed services,up until the latter part of the 20 th century.Restrictions in universities in the UK,only in the last couple of decades has the game really taken off.
Removed in Italy,by ru lobbying the govt to have the game refused 3rd party insurance (as it was a pro sport).The game effectively died there.
In France ,it appears one makes light of the fact the banning of the game lasted only 5 years.The code had 300,000 francs in the bank and assets,all gone.In 46 any assets seized by the Vichy govt,were handed over to the officiallly recognised sport (rugby union).Rugby league could not ,did not receive grants from the govt,and was not able to be taught in French schools.
Rugby league was therefore behind the 8 ball,players poached by a cashed up union,and due to being denuded of assets unable to compete.They lost their name and had to be called “game of X111″.A strong French national rl side ,would have meant a stronger rl intnl presence.Resulting in more funds being available,the teams of the 50s not long after the end of WW2 are proof enough.They however were the last of the war year players,and from then on the game and players in France imploded.Dirty tricks such as floodingfields,double booking council grounds so that rl could not use them,was another little trick by some ru supporters and clubs .The plain simple fact rugby league has received no redress by the French govt .Therefore viz a viz the Vichy banning had a long term and profound effect on French rugby league.Non recognition is hardly a panacaea for financial support and grassroots growth.
Another valid point to consider,whilst rugby union was supposedly openly amateur,the head bodies were able to accumulate
large wads of cash(not given to the players) ,to expand the game,by virtue of the armed services,university tours etc etc.If you pay players little or nothing you have money to spend on grassroots or intnl development.That was the argument in the first place,injured players not being recompensed in ru,whilst the head body got financially fat.
A little thing called a Super league war.which decimated the finances of the ARL and whatever the English rl had.It had the effcet of doing some extreme damage to the game in places like Tonga,South africa and other emerging countries.It put the game back at least a dozen years,and even today there is a residual effect.
Should I dare mention Japan,where rugby league under a guy name Max Mannix tried to get the ball rolling.The result any ru players who tried their hand at rl,were banned and threatened.It is still happening in some countries in Europe(Holland/Norway and Germany) so much for freedom of choice in a democracy.
It is worth noting to support my argument during the previous 4-5 years,rugby league has finally shrugged off the restrictions and problems of the past and has expandede into more countries than at any time of its existence.Without the restrictions,dirty tricks ,and having sl wars in the past,the game may well have been played in over 100 countries by now.Who knows.
Mike said | June 25th 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
“Should I dare mention Japan,where rugby league under a guy name Max Mannix tried to get the ball rolling.The result any ru players who tried their hand at rl,were banned and threatened.It is still happening in some countries in Europe(Holland/Norway and Germany) so much for freedom of choice in a democracy.”
*LMAO* – now support for rugby league become a plank in the fight for democracy! Oppressed people worldwide wait for league to appear in their countries, signifying freedom from oppression…
League is only “expanding worldwide” (well, a little bit!) now because News Limited is pouring even more money into it, hoping to produce something that will recover their lost investment in Super League. Its the same reason I don’t trust any of their crowd or ratings figures.
Crosscoder said | June 25th 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Mike.
Sorry That should have read he Col Klink approach “I know nuthink”.
For goodness sake man , your post 15th june 1.13pm” yes it hasn’t been pleasant to be on the receiving end of poaching,the way they used to poach union players”.
Using anecdotal evidence(your fav words) that appears to be a moral statement ie getting one’s own back,punishent for being unkind ,retribution,whatever.
You are given an example,where the same situation happened in reverse in France(when union was” amateur”) and up comes the union drawbridge.
As shown by your anecdotal evidernce on rl people switching to ru,it is pretty damn hard to enlighten someone when the shades are drawn.
Mike said | June 25th 2009 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Crosscoder,
You appear to have read a gentle dig by me as the same sort of huffing and puffing you regularly treat us to! I have made clear several times that I am not being pejorative when I talk about poaching. To restate one of my earlier posts (one of many you don’t read, I think), Union effectively became the feeder code for League in Australia for over 90 years, which League was entitled to do. I was therefore surprised to see the extreme bleating from News Limited/NRL during the Sonny Bill episode. Not the fact they took legal action – if your lawyers think you have a case, and you have the money, then go for it. But the air of moral outrage…? Spare us all please!!!!
And I still am waiting to hear a single reason from you as to why a rather extraordinary period in the history of a war-torn country 10,000 miles away has anything to do with the situation in Australia!
Jerry said | June 25th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Crosscoder – that should, in fact, be the Sgt Schulz “I know nuthink” approach.
Pippinu said | June 25th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
RM
I see your point – yes – I think there’s a fair bit of truth in that (the gradual elimination of a gap in quality between your average home and away game and SOO).
Anthony Abrahams said | June 25th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Crosscoder: A very last comment: You are (regrettably) progessivley losing credibility every time you write on this subject – both from the point of view of rigour (dare iI say “intellectual” rigour – which can be a way of describing “intellectual honesty”) and completeness. I therefore apologise for being more direct this time round. You have a frustrating way of cherry-picking the points you think you can get away with adressing and leaving entirely un-dealt with those that pin you. I analysed the St Andreas Faults in your method with care and politeness but you continue to ignore the points made and to commit the same sins of sophistry (Mike keeps pointing out some of them).
You are indignant that countries with a nascent and struggling Union code – or even a flourishing one – took steps to stop the power of the bucjk from ruining a game with a far deeper cultural side and (whatever Sean Fagans attempts to imply the reverse) a far more articulated – and folowed – set of values than League ever had or has even attempted to have. Look CC, the fact is that, hugely in the main, Union remained as free of real money to the players for the whole of the life of League during the 20th Century. You constantly complain – Mike would say “whine” or “whinge” – about the fact that League money – not the attraction of the game – was not able to be left without a fight-back to have a free crack at ruining Union. And then you indulge in the most fanciful exercise of “what might have been”. As far as I can deduce, League officials, everywhere, are a narrow self-serving cartel-thinking lot whose morals are of those of the proverbial alley-cat. Had Rugby been a threat to them in Australia (for example) I believe they would have done anything to kill it – perhaps saved only by the fact that some of the ex Rugby players would have objected. But they didnt have to; money kept Union as a non-threat and the truth of this is amply born out by the enormous chagrin your lot feel about the loss of League players since the playing field was evened out (if League is so attractive why has there not been one Union player who has turned since then? Are none good enough?). Try as you might to slip through the narrow door to which I’ve referred in detail, a number of times, your French stuff looks absurdly like drawing the longest of long bows – sunk in a morass of speculation and innuendo that makes (as I’ve implied before) Kennedy conspiracy theorists look like neophytes in the paranoia first division in which you are starting to operate. CC, League would NEVER (in most people’s view) have gone anywhere without the money advantage. And, for the reasons I’ve mentioned (the nature of the game and (now) the absence of a money advantage it hardly ever will. (By the way, notice that I havent mentioned the player behaviour issue as I have a certain sympathy with the degree to which it may be claimed that a low flying media is falsely generating a crisis in League). And finally CC, you’ve failed to address what someone with a French background – who should know how anonymity contributes to the sins of a closed society – should shun, namely : writing from behind the veil of a nom de plume. Doesn’t really go with the moral high ground, does it? AA
matta said | June 25th 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
why does there seem to be more posts on SBW and Lote than anyone else?
not a bad effort for two ‘average NRL converts to the countries 4th footy code’
Lewie said | June 25th 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
AA,
i like to remain anonymous…..because in reality, i’m The Stig.
furthermore, if you reallllly want to know what happened to Kennedy………….
Mike said | June 25th 2009 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Lewie,
Clarkson reckons the Stig is Michael Schumacher! Too good to be true…
Lewie said | June 25th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
no chance Mike. I have actually watched the episode, downloaded off the net…..(should i be saying that? Thank God for anonymity i guess). Anyway, at the end of the program there is a very clear indicator from Clarkson that it was all a pi55-take.
But then again, who’s to say….perhaps i’m Schumacher as well.
Crosscoder said | June 26th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Mike
It appears you have not read my posts,nowhere have I stated that league did not poach players in Oz for decades. As an
example I defended Gasnier’s move and the way it was done.
SBW made his own bed,in a very shoddy and unprofessional manner.The different reaction by fans to his switch,from those of the Gasniers.Tuqiiris,Rogers speaks volumes.
I am no fan of News <I am more interested in the reaction of fans and the club involved in the SBW case.
When someone comes on board banging on about ru losing players to rl and rl is now getting its own back,and someone has the temerity to suggest it also happened the other way around in France.We get the what has that to do with Oz?It’s called consistency and hypocrisy.
The ARU is part of the world ru community/family as was /is France.Therefore the rules apply to all member countries.
Oz ru has been deeply affected by poaching no argument,ditto the reverse in France.The latter seems to have struck a sensitive cord,that some in ru have difficulty in accepting.
It reminds me of the sweeping under the carpet by post war French govts for decades about many things involving Vichy.The comment” an obscure period in history”,says it all really:denial .The Buffett commision set up in 97,at least finally showed up some ru officials for what they were.
No wonder the treizistes are still struggling in France for redress,with these cloud nine attitudes.
Crosscoder said | June 26th 2009 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
AA
Thanks for the discrete put down, I will let it roll through to the keeper.
Credibility is anyway in the eyes of the beholder and sometimes denial rears its head (when history is invoked).
I will make a few further points
A quote from the”Forbidden Game” by Mike Rylance a well research historical account of the game in France.
”
Rugby union’s strike was to have effects that lasted LONG after after the war had ended.The war years had seen an
unprecedented rise,thanks to the Vichy’s Commissariat Ge’ne’ral aux Sports,in the FRench public’s participation in sport.If rugby league had been played during that period it would almost certainly have outpaced its union rival.Instead union was given the further inestimable advantage of being made compulsory in schools with the new FFR president crowing”I agree with Pascot.Rugby (union) is a manly sport which will regenerate the people”.Vichy had not only stripped rugby league bare.It had land mined the game’s post-war future with the result that French rugby league,less than a generation after it had begun,would enter a period of slow decline.’
Again
“Five years on (1946) the French Rugby League had no capital resources and fewer players than it had at the time of the ban.The game had now seen almost as many years’ inactivity as there had been championship seasons.A number of those players in their prime had now retired.Others ,having been forced into reunification,as it was euphemistically designated,decided not to rejoin their former rl clubs,now that the British had obligingly reopened intnl competition and removed the threat of sanctions against shamateurism”.
Again
“French rl had some notable successes in its 60 odd years existence,but those triumphs have often been against the run of play.The full pattern of development from junior and schoolboy level through the pro ranks towards intnl status has never been complete because parts of the jigsaw have alwys been missing”.
eg No PE teachers allowed to teach the code,no recognition until 1993,no govt grants.
BTW the amount of money in the French rl account at the time of asset seizure,was 1,200,000 Francs not (300,000 I initially indicated)which equated ATT to about stg300,000.
When people involved in starting up rugby league in some countries write to the RLEF,and other rl organisations stating that players who are curently playing ru,are denied by their clubs and head bodies to try their hand at rl,such as Holland,Germany,Norway tend to take their experience as reasonably reliable.Yes there are countries where both rugby codes work together in a limited way,such as the Pcific islands.
To finish my rant ,hypothetically if the French situation had occurred in reverse in NZ.ie The NZRU was banned for the period of 5 years,then all its assets seized and handed over to the NZRL.For the next 50 odd years was not recognised by the NZ govt,was not able to be taught by PE teachers in schools,and the NZRL received grants all this time.You trying to tell me there would be little or no significant impact on intnl rugby union,or the ability of NZRU to be the competitive force it is today.
if you can’t see also that a Sl war impacted on a code that had over $20m in the bank in Oz in 95(ARL) and was already making inroads in Sth Africa and other countries , it can only suggest the sameSL war then had little effect.It has to be one or the other.
Mike said | June 26th 2009 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Nice try, crosscoder, but it doesn’t work. The hypocrisy is in the way the NRL reacted when SBW was signed. Union supporters have simply pointed out the hypocrisy of the NRL’s outrage.
Nobody cares what happened in France in a very unusual period (WWII and aftermath). Its like trying to blame the whole code of soccer just because the Nazi’s manipulated the code in Germany in the 1930s. Utterly irrelevant.
Now, here is something for Leaguies to get excited about – apparently Easts (whom some people call “the Roosters”) have signed up J P Du Plessis, an 18-year old star from South Africa’s prestigious schoolboy Rugby competition. It seems South African rugby is rather unhappy. My heart bleeds for them.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 26th 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
Dedicated to the Sophistry of the Anonymous Eponymous Crosscoder
I call myself a Crosscoder
And I’m full of animosity
For I detect an odour
Of a lack of generosity
The Union chaps keep screaming
’bout League’s finacial years
But they forget the scheming
Of their ghastly French-based peers
Of how they raped and pillaged
Our sacred lads in France
And how much they diminshed
League’s twntieth century chance
If it wasn’t for those Frenchies
Just think of how we’d have flourished
Instead we’re on the benches
And languish undernourished
We could have been the number one
An obsession and a mania
In England, France and Kazakstan
And even in Tasmania
But those goddam flamin’ French
With their pernicious use of money
Have introduced the stench
Of somethin’ that’s not funny
They PAID their players on and off
Whilst we were paying ours more
But Rugby Union’s just for toffs
And should respect its law
Ah, Crosscoder; I said I was retiring but I mistook this site forthe Austrlain Literary Review. AA
Westy said | June 26th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
Its on again those rugby league boys god love them never know when to give up. The Roosters have signed up a youngster from SA and on the look for more. Maybe not compete with the 5 Springbok Super teams but definitely outmuscle the Currie Cup clubs. Not unpleasant life in Bondi and permanent residency might also be a long term a goal for some.
Anthony Abrahams said | June 26th 2009 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
The correct version is now cut and pasted (apologies)
Dedicated to the Sophistry of the Anonymous Eponymous Crosscoder
I call myself a Crosscoder
And I’m full of animosity
For I detect an odour
Of a lack of generosity
The Union chaps keep screaming
’bout League’s financial years
But they forget the scheming
Of their ghastly French-based peers
Of how they raped and pillaged
Our sacred lads in France
And how much they diminished
League’s twentieth century chance
If it wasn’t for those Frenchies
Just think of how we’d have flourished
Instead we’re on the benches
And languish undernourished
We could have been the number one
An obsession and a mania
In England, France and Kazakhstan
And even in Tasmania
But those goddam flamin’ French
With their pernicious use of money
Have introduced the stench
Of somethin’ that’s not funny
They PAID their players on and off
Whilst we were paying ours more
But Rugby Union’s just for toffs
And should respect its law
Ah, Crosscoder; I said I was retiring but I mistook this site for the Australian Literary Review
Dave said | June 26th 2009 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
Westy, kudos to the Roosters but it will be good when the AFL starts getting players from South Africa as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_in_South_Africa
Lewie said | June 30th 2009 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Mike,
when has Rugby League ever induced a Rugby Union player to break contract and switch codes? Examples please.
Crosscoder said | July 4th 2009 @ 8:27am | Report comment
AA
Love your work,I should feel so honoured.This ode has to be compulsory pre match Union test entertainment.Waltzing matilda has become a tad passe’.
Just a little note,to induce that warm and fuzzy feeling for the dreaded “mungos”.
Sport England funding for the top 10 sports in that country 2009-2013 period.
1.Cricket Stg 37,776,725
2.Rugby union stg 30,724,908
3.Rugby league(those dreaded leaguies) Stg 29,408,341.Yes sirree, now that is languishing:a direct result of huge increases in participation rates throughout the country.
Animosity!!!! Just between you and me ,some of my close friends are rah rahs,played the game I did.No I am just a humble seeker of justice(in France) and just like the Tom Kenneally’s of this world ,(in his Boyer lecture)invoke events in sporting history. It brings the expected response ,from those who man the barricades of the blameless.
Crosscoder said | July 4th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Mike
Sorry I have a different view,which has not been convinced otherwise.
For 100 years ru people derided anyoneone who played rl for money.Denigrated ru players who switched.In 1995/6 ru grabbed the money without a by your leave.Translation : hypocrisy
During the intervening years the Wallabies played France when ru was amateur and in France shamateur.Neither the Wallabies nor the ARU protested about the “pro” status of France ATT..Translation: hypocrisy
When someone bleats about Australian ru losing players to rl,and ru(who did not object to professionalism when they played the French) can now as the amateur victim retaliate rings :hypocrisy on a smaller scale.
The comment that”nobody cares what happened in WW2″in France ,is laughable.A comission into Sport under Vichy set up by the socialist govt in 1995 and the findings of 2002 ,and blame in the case of rl situation the FRU,it appears some people in power do and did care.A group called X111Actif set up to redress the situation did obviously care.
If any organisation stole your assets and then handed them over to your next door neighbour,and you struggled fo