Southern Hemisphere’s weakened teams argument is double standards
By pothale, 17 Jun 2009 Pot Hale is a Roar Guru
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People on this forum and others complain about nations sending weakened rugby teams on tours to play in Test matches. The Northern Hemisphere en bloc gets most of the brickbats for this.
When pushed, people then say they don’t actually mean all of the Northern Hemisphere – what they really mean are England and France.
Whether that’s because they’re regarded as the powerhouse teams of Europe and the ones that matter, or because they actually are perennially guilty, is never quite clarified.
But what exactly is a weakened team?
It seems to have a number of definitions, depending on where the commentator is sitting, and whether they are being defensive or disparaging about the team.
Phrases like “second-string team (or third or fourth”); “experimental team”; “inexperienced team”; “development team”, or a “weakened side” get bandied about as part of the debate.
Is it okay to send out an “experimental team” as long as your team wins, or is it a no-no, whatever the result?
Is there a Northern Hemisphere/Southern Hemisphere distinction? Do Northern Hemisphere sides send “third-string teams” because they always lose, but Southern Hemisphere teams only send experimental team who often win but sometimes lose?
Some people are of the view that saying that ‘injuries prevented travel’ is not acceptable and is a ruse – that it simply serves as an excuse that a particular player hasn’t travelled.
Others believe that domestic competitions should be altered, so that players are available to travel. They state that the Top 14 final should be shifted to accommodate tours to the Southern Hemisphere by France.
The irony is that France finally sent a full squad down South this June and were met with an injury-plagued All Blacks team in their first Test. Despite being down a couple of players themselves, the French beat the All Blacks handsomely.
For added irony, there were comments and complaints in New Zealand media before the Test, complaining that the full French XV wouldn’t be available for the test due to either injuries or delays from the Top 14 final.
Are double standards being applied by Southern Hemisphere commentators and fans in their assessment of how the Northern Hemisphere should operate in relation to tours?
Graham Henry is careful never to send out a second string team on tour.
By his definition he is merely rotating his squad, even if practically fifteen different players turn up on the pitch, like he did with the game against Scotland on the last tour.
The Aussies flirt with team ‘experimentation’ or even ‘team development’ when they go on tour, which is kind of handy, in case their team ever loses.
The Springboks are a bit more blatant – they just leave players at home to rest them or have ‘injuries’. If they lose, well it was only a second-string team, goes the South African response.
Southern Hemisphere commentators and fans believe that the Northern Hemisphere teams are the ones guilty of the practice of fielding weakened teams. I don’t think that claim really stands up to scrutiny.
It seems it’s more a case of choosing the right language to cover over any inconsistencies.
The Southern Hemisphere commentators might reasonably assert that their teams regularly win, whether on tour or playing against touring teams. So the quality of the players can’t really be questioned, whether they are first-teamers or not.
To which I might say fine. Except for what they say when they lose.
“Well, we were just experimenting, you can’t take too much from the result”; “the team’s in development”; “it was just a second-string side in prep for the next World Cup,” are the familiar responses.
Sounds more like double standards to me.
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June 17th 2009 @ 8:37am
Rusty said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Interesting topic and I will agree with the double standards to an extent. What people are looking for is a contest and the perception down here in the south is that during the incoming tours we rarely get one. As Jerry pointed out, as much as I take glee in spanking another team its a bit of a short term joy. You want to see to gladiators tearing chunks out of each other in a titanic battle not one way traffic. Im not going to bring the stats up but basically I would say the perception is that even though we may send “experimental/2nd string” sides they will still win more than lose and provide said contest. While the NH sending a similar versed side is tantamount to suicide. Arrogant perhaps but overall the results dont lie
June 17th 2009 @ 8:37am
Acer said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Sheek,
Mate I have to disagree with you. Rugby is an 80 minute game and it doesn’t matter when you score the points as long as you get them inside the allocated time. If the last 15-10 minutes don’t count then we should change the game to two 30 minute halves. However this would then lead to the same argument and the game could be made shorter and shorter until its just 10minutes each way.
KO
Very valid point re the Italian Job but mate they would’ve got spanked even if they had their top team. But I definately can see your point that you and Pothale are making and it is justified. However please don’t take this the wrong way Australia, South Africa and the New Zealanders are the top three ranked countries in the world and very rarely are we not while I may not agree with the practice they can normally play a 2nd XV and still win as oppossed to the NH teams a second XV generally gets soundly whipped.
June 17th 2009 @ 8:44am
pothale said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Acer bubsy
You’re right – it is a moan. But it’s kinda of an important one since it seems to be raised at the highest levels in the game.
You can read above what I said already about the ‘handsomely’ comment so I won’t repeat myself. (It’s funny how people pick up on a small thing like that when it’s not the actual issue. Must remember that for future.) And the Aussie performance against Italy was okay to good. Look at the results the other 5 Nations posted on them earlier in the year to put it into perspective. Australia is better than any of those 5 teams, I presume you would think.
My loathing for all things Southern Hemispehere rugby is showing???? Because I’m patriotic? You’re kidding – right?
I love watching SH teams play – particularly against NH test teams. (Well maybe not the ABs as much, but certainly SA and Aus). Just cos I get annoyed at teams being missing players or not fielding full-teams doesn’t mean that I loathe SH rugby. Every team does it.
Nor do I see how you can say that I don’t hold SH rugby in high regard. You’re being waaaaay too sensitive. If I think something is hypocritical, then I’ll say so, whether I like the person or organisation or not. I presume you would do the same. I hold most of the top 12 teams in the same regard. I don’t know as much about the others below that point, so I can’t really comment on them.
But, never mind, despite all that minor skirmishing, you agree that there are double standards. Fine.
However, you add a caveat that the “NH is guilty also of pushing their own agenda.” I’ve no idea what this means. An agenda in relation to test teams? SH tours? Wearing red polka-dot bandanas at half-time?
Yours frown-free
Pothale
June 17th 2009 @ 8:52am
Knives Out said | June 17th 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Not strictly true, Acer. Australia hasn’t had the greatest touring record over the past few years, neither has SA – certainly not in comparison to NZ anyhow.
June 17th 2009 @ 9:03am
Jerry said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
“It’s funny how people pick up on a small thing like that when it’s not the actual issue.”
Hey, I used to be a lawyer – picking up on small things and fudging the issue was my job.
June 17th 2009 @ 9:04am
pothale said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Lol. You get full marks for that one, Lawyer Jerry.
June 17th 2009 @ 9:05am
Acer said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Pothale,
Bubsy whats the deal with that?
Look mate I was taking the piss and just having a laugh read the comments I made.
Your so wound up settle down a bit and take it for what it was light hearted humour.
While I like to see the All Blacks beaten I don’t harbour the same detest you have against them, actually if anything I support them whenever they are not playing the Wallabies.
Your entitled to your opinion and I respect you for having one, but chill out a little not everything in life is worth spitting the dummy over
June 17th 2009 @ 9:06am
Rusty said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
KO
True, and without gettting into a hemispheric pissing contest if you reverse that comment you will still see that the SH nations on tour have out performed their NH brethren emphatically.
if we look at it from 2003 Autumn int.
AB – P 15 W 15 L 0 – 100%
SA – P 13, W 8, L 5 – 61.%
AU – P 16, W 9, L 6, D 1 – 56.3%
Then compare it to from 2003 Summer int.
AU – P 17, W 16, L 1 – 94.1% or a win rate of 5.9% to touring nations
SA – P 15, W 13, L 1, D1 – 86.7.% or a win rate of 13.3% to touring nations
AB – P 14 W 12 L 2 – 85.7% or a win rate 14.3% to touring nations
Looking at that and you will understand why the perception exists of weak nations being sent South .
June 17th 2009 @ 9:14am
Acer said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
KO,
You make a good point, funny though how Rusty said exactly the same thing in the post directly above mine.
So KO who would you be your most respected opposition when it comes to rugby and who do you like to beat the most?
I’m a little torn when it comes to respect there is no doubting that it would be the All Blacks followed closely by the Springboks
But when it comes to who I like to see beat the most it would have to be England hands down I guess its the whole old country thing and that I could never bring myself to support Engalnd in anything oppossed to South Africa and New Zealand I tend to support both when they are not playing against the Wallabies but when they are playing each other I tend to go for NZ the whole ANZAC thing could be to blame for this lol
June 17th 2009 @ 9:16am
pothale said | June 17th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
LOL – likewise, Acer. You’re not being insulted – chill out.
Bubsy is a jokey form of endearment round these parts.
Sorry I didn’t realise you were only taking the piss and that your comments were only light hearted humour. I thought you meant them. Forget I spoke in that case.
Relax and have some of whatever Jerry’s having. Mine’s a Cosmo, if you’re going to the bar. But no umbrellas, please.