By Spiro Zavos
June 23rd 2009 @ 12:47am
Related coverage
Aaron Cruden, New Zealand’s latest rugby star
Australia's Richard Kingi, left, fights for the ball with New Zealand's Aaron Cruden during the IRB Junior World Rugby Championship in Tokyo, Wednesday, June 17, 2009. AP Photo/Shizuo Kambayashi
Last year’s Hong Kong Sevens revealed the prodigious rugby talents of James O’Connor. This year’s Under-20 Junior World Championship revealed the equally prodigious rugby talents of Aaron Cruden, the captain of the winning New Zealand side.
It would not be a surprise if the All Black selectors gave him a run in the New Zealand squad that tour Europe in November.
Cruden, at this stage of his career, looks to be the successor to Daniel Carter when he finishes up in New Zealand rugby and moves permanently overseas some time after the 2011 Rugby World Cup.
Cruden was forced to undergo a course of chemotheraphy for testicular cancer. He has come through that ordeal and plays with a maturity and skill of a younger version of Carter, taking the line on, making breaks, kicking accurately and defending strongly.
He is, like O’Connor, the complete package.
The Junior World Cup final was a terrific rugby match played by an aggressive and skillful New Zealand side, with a wonderful set of backs, against a monster England pack, all the players full-time professionals, who were man-for-man bigger and faster than the national pack.
England dominated the scrums and won its own lineout ball easily enough.
Their standout forward was the lanky second rower James Gaskell. Ben Youngs, a strong-running halfback, and Tom Homer, a big, long-kicking fullback, also impressed as future international.
But the side was too slow around the field and too lacking in passing and running skills overall to seriously threaten the New Zealand team.
The New Zealanders had any number of fine backs who will make a mark at the provincial and national senior level sooner rather than later.
The coach of the New Zealand side, Dave Rennie, predicts that several of his squad will be in the All Blacks during the Rugby World Cup tournament in 2011.
Names to look out for, aside from Cruden, are the centres Shaun Treeby and Winston Stanley, the winger Zac Guilford and the most impressive Robbie Robinson, a fullback who plays with the brilliance of Jeff Wilson.
The Australian side was the disappointment of the tournament.
Coach David Nucifora had a squad with several players with Super 14 experience. But somehow he couldn’t get the team to play the exact and expressive rugby needed to win the tournament.
Three players in the squad took the eye, though: the Sydney University second rower David McDuling, the hooker Damien Fitzpatrick, a future Wallaby captain, and Richard Kingi, a live wire running halfback who learned his rugby in New Zealand.
Two other aspects of the tournament deserve a special mention.
First, the New Zealanders, once again, have provided in this rugby arena the benchmark against which all the other countries should aspire to.
And second, the excellent management and running of the tournament by the Japanese officials at Nagoya, a hot-spa tourist town. A knowledgeable and enthusiatic crowd of over 20,000 supported the final on a wet day.
Japan is bidding to host either the 2015 0r 2019 Rugby World Cup tournaments.
In my view, England should be awarded the 2015 tournament. But the Japanese Rugby Union has improved its chances greatly for the 2019 tournament.
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Ian Noble said | June 23rd 2009 @ 1:35am | Report comment
Spiro
England lost to the better team. However there is some encouragement as the elite academy system is bringing through better quality English players than even 5 years ago. The bar is continualy being raised and it is a pity that a couple of the U18’s could not play in the backs as they are considered to be better prospects than the present centres. As for the forwards better conditioning and careful training is bringing through a bigger faster forward. The real test is how many move on to the senior squads and the England side, may be only three or four.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 23rd 2009 @ 2:04am | Report comment
“And second, the excellent management and running of the tournament by the Japanese officials at Nagoya, a hot-spa tourist town. A knowledgeable and enthusiatic crowd of over 20,000 supported the final on a wet day.”
Nagoya only hosted the pool stages, along with Tokyo, Osaka and Saga, with Fukuoka being used for some of the playoff games. The semis, final and third place playoff were all played in Tokyo.
And in actual fact, Nagoya is the third largest metropolitan region in Japan with the fourth most populous urban area. It’s a major port and the centre of Japan’s car industry.
Colin N said | June 23rd 2009 @ 2:16am | Report comment
England are bringing through some talented players, but I feel we are still lacking in some areas, especially inside centre. Luke Eves is a decent player, but I can only see him becoming a good club player, he doesn’t look like he has the necessary skills to become an international player. Henry Trinder, on the other hand, has looked a very good player, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he stars for Gloucester this year. Next year, I expect to see ex-England U-18 captain Tom Casson take the 13 shirt (unless Trinder has one more year left at this level). The forwards look very promising and no doubt the likes of James Gaskell and Carl Fearns (irb young player of the year nominee) will feature for Sale quite a lot next season, especially with Fernandez-Lobbe now gone to pastures new. Also Calum Clark, a regular for Leeds in the last two years (and still only 20) will continue his development in the Guinness Premiership. I’ve been really impressed with, usually first to the breakdown, takes a good body position and also very good in the loose.
England are also producing a procession of half-backs. Add Ben Youngs and Dave Lewis to the likes of Care, Ellis, Hodgson, Micky Young, Joe Simpson and Wigglesworth (just off the top of my head), shows England have a lot of depth in that area.
Sam Taulelei said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:32am | Report comment
Very sad to read of Zac Guildford at fulltime looking up into the stands to acknoweldge his parents and see his father attended to by the team doctor dying from a heart attack.
Another fine group of talented youngsters coached by Dave Rennie that could see some feature in the All Blacks on the end of season tour and Super 14. I would caution against comparing Cruden to Carter as this early stage of his career as there were similar high hopes for last years first five Daniel Kilpatrick after their U20 championship win against England and Kilpatrick hasn’t yet kicked on for the Hurricanes or Wellington. With consecutive victories at this age grade level it offers a lot of optimism and potential for the next generation of NZ rugby players to challenge for All Black spots in the years to come.
There were high expectations for the Australian team and on paper they were a stronger team than last years side that narrowly lost to England in their semifinal and this years fourth placing is nothing less than a major failure and not a disappointment as coach Nucifora stated.
Sam Taulelei said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:56am | Report comment
Posted this earlier so apologies if it appears twice.
Very sad to read of Zac Guildford at fulltime looking up in the stands to acknowledge his parents and seeing his father attended to by the team doctor dying from a heart attack.
Another group of talented youngsters coached by Dave Rennie that could see some feature in the All Blacks end of year tour and many in next years Super 14. I would caution against comparing Cruden to Carter at this early stage of his career, there were similar high hopes for Daniel Kilpatrick after last years championship win against England and he hasn’t yet kicked on for the Hurricanes and Wellington. A demanding position like first five can only be mastered after experience and talent alone isn’t enough at higher levels. Names like Beale and Cooper are testament to hyping a prodigious talent too soon. However consecutive victories at this age grade tournament offers a lot of optimism and potential for the next generation of talent in NZ rugby to challenge for All Black spots in the years to come, particularly in the two positions that we have struggled to find quality backups – first five and openside flanker.
The Australian team had high expectations for winning this tournament and on paper had a stronger team than last years side which controversially lost their semifinal against England. Their fourth placing should be considered a major failure and not a major disappointment as stated by David Nucifora.
Sam Taulelei said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:09am | Report comment
Aaron Cruden hailing from the Manawatu should be snapped up by the Hurricanes which would give them two talented youngsters (Daniel Kilpatrick) to develop in a major problem position for the franchise since Stephen Bachop and David Holwell hung up their boots. His battle in overcoming testicular cancer last year is inspirational and similar to another age grade player of the tournament, Robert Fruean who had to give the game away while battling a rare life threatening condition called pandacritis who returned to the game this year and took the field for the Hurricanes against the Blues.
Matt said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:41am | Report comment
Very impressive of the NZ to claim back-to-back trophies after only one player returned from last season (Guildford).
Have had the pleasure of watching Cruden playing rugby many times for a very talent Palmerston North Boys High School team (including current NZ 7’s player and FB Kurt Baker, Manawatu and 08 NZU20 winger Andre Taylor and the two starting 09 NZU20 Props Ma’afu Fia and Willie Ione).
My brother, who played Centre for the same side, has alway been fairly adament that Cruden would wear the Black jersey one day and I guess he was more than correct. He’s certainly not the biggest guy (only 175cm and 82 kg’s) but he has an incredible talent for seeing space and opportunity, something that just cannot be tought.
Cruden was always unfortunate to be in the same year group as Dan Kirkpatrick who was always favoured (and helped by some untimely injuries to Cruden). It’ll be a real shame when the Air NZ Cup is reduced next season (to 10 teams) and the likes of Fia, Ione, Cruden, Baker, Taylor (from one year group alone) will have to find a new path to the spotlight if Manawatu is culled.
Robbie Robinson and Treeby were the other standout players for me. I beleive that both are 1st 5’s who have been moved. Robinson definitely is and I think Treeby (like Ryan Crotty last season) is a 1st Five shifted out. It is the same pattern that Deans is trying to impart on the Wallabies. More playmakers effectively give more attacking option on the second phase.
Blindside flanker from Northhampton looked very impressive and will definitely kick on to bigger things for England. Homer at FB looked impressive too. But no backs that looked as promising as Jordan Turner-Hall did last season. Bodes well for England’s future though and it must only be a matter of time before they finally claim their maiden IRB Age Grade Tournament.
Lion Red said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:02am | Report comment
Now that Carter has returned to the Crusaders maybe the Blues franchise should recruit Cruden.
Justin said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
I thought the AUS forward pack was decent but without a proper 7. The guy who played 7 was ordinary, didnt secure turnovers, waited in defence and wasnt a great ball runner. Shaw played well as did Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately outside 9 and 10 for AUS there was little to get excited about. The wingers for AUS were shocking, too small, not quick enough and just generally mistake ridden against good opposition.
I thought Robinson for NZ was outstanding at 15 even though he is a 10. At that age he could easily make the switch full time. Hit the line hard (a key for a 15) made busts at will and obviously has all the other skills being a 10 normally.
Knives out said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Here’s something posted on Planet Rugby:
2008 – IRB Junior Player of the Year: Luke Braid (New Zealand)
2007 – IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Robert Fruean (New Zealand)
2006 – IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Josh Holmes (Australia)
2006 – IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Lionel Beauxis (France)
2005 – IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Isaia Toeava (New Zealand)
2005 – IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Tatafu Polota-Nau (Australia)
2004 – IRB International U19 Player of the Year: Jeremy Thrush (New Zealand)
2004 – IRB International U21 Player of the Year: Jerome Kaino (New Zealand)
2003 – IRB U19 Player of the Year: Jean Baptiste Payras (France)
2003 – IRB U21 Player of the Year: Ben Atiga (New Zealand)
2002 – IRB U19 Player of the Year: Luke McAlister (New Zealand)
2002 – IRB U21 Player of the Year: Pat Barnard (South Africa)
2001 – IRB Young Player of the Year: Gavin Henson (Wales)
With thanks to the IRB
Only Peyras (Not Payras) has not made his mark at either club/provincial/franchise or test level.
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Fruean hasn’t really made a mark either, but has been selected for the Junior AB’s entirely on potential. He only played about 20 minutes for the Canes this year and hasn’t featured much for Wellington in the past. This isn’t down to his play however, he had a life threatening heart condition and had major surgery last year which meant he played little to no rugby. Now that he is fit and available, it will be interesting to see how he manages – it’s a real story if someone could overcome such hurdles early on.
Atiga has been a bit of wasted potential also – never really kicked on and dominated at Super 12/14 level and hence hasn’t featured much for the AB’s.
Also, Pat Barnard is a complete mystery to me – I don’t recall him at all, perhaps one of our South African posters could enlighten as to what has become of him.
Knives out said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Pat Barnard moved to England, much to the chagrin of Nick Mallety, signed for Northampton Saints and then forLondon Wasps. In fits and bursts he has been very good but unfortunately he seems to be constantly injured. Despite that he’s been closely involved with the England training squad over the past few seasons. I suspect he would have made his debut by now were he not always injured.
Atiga is a real blast from the past. I’m not sure how many of the older players have actually fulfilled their potential, however.
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Mitchell selected Atiga for the 03 World Cup squad (ahead of Christian Cullen for gods sake) but other than that, he’s not made it back to the AB’s. He’s been a regular for the Blues but has struggled to pin down a consistent role – he seems to suffer from versatility and gets bounced around from fullback to wing to centre without consistently producing in any role.
Really only Kaino and McAlisster from that list have become a genuine international class player for the AB’s, though I’m still hopeful that that Toeava will get some consistency (actually I’d like to seem him tried on the wing with Rokocoko so out of form) and Thrush has been consistent at S14 level without being given the opportunity to step up. Luke Braid has real potential and could well feature for the AB’s in a year or two.
JamesB said | June 23rd 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
None of this years NZ U20 team will feature at RWC2011. The AB team for 2011 is virtually picked already. 2014 is a more realistic target.
JamesB said | June 23rd 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
….and the AB team / squad for RWC 2011 will be:
15. Muliana
14. Sivivatu
13. Kahui or Smith
12. Nonu
11. Rococoko
10. Carter
9. Leonard
8. Soialo
7. McCaw
6. Kaino
5. Williams
4. Thorn
3. Hayman
2. Hore
1. Woodcock
Reserves: Latimar, Read, Weepu, McCallister, Toeava, Ross, Mealumu
James Mortimer said | June 23rd 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Ben Atiga was my inside centre for my Rugby 07 playstation 3 game. He had statistics better even than Ma’a Nonu or Luke McAlister. Sadly EA Sports saw something that hasn’t really eventuated.
Mr Zavos, please don’t put the mocker on these young players.
The complete packages????
Easy now.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 23rd 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Wasn’t Cruden’s goal-kicking rather dreadful? He’ll need to fix that if he hopes to progress.
Desperately sad news about Zac Guildford’s father. I wish the family all the best.
Colin N & Ian – very interesting and informative posts. Am I right in thinking there are a couple of chaps of Pacific Island extraction in the England U18s set-up? How did that come about?
Hayden said | June 23rd 2009 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Viscount – I believe that having failed spectacularly to lure the PI chaps north with promises of warm weather and good food, the RFU has resorted to the old Royal Navy tactic of the press gang. A club over the ear in Apia, smuggled onto the routine CIA rendition flights that pass through the Orkneys, a couple of nights in Wormwood Scrubs, and then told the only way they’ll see home again is if they help the Red Rose lift the WC in 2011.
Brad said | June 23rd 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
James B. would that make Brad Thorn the oldest all black? Sadly South Africa will win the world cup again. 2007 should have been New Zealands year but for some awsome play by England who knocked out all of the big guns they allowed SA a free pass (Beating Fiji, Argentina and England only) 2011 is where the springboks will be unbeatable.
Lion Red said | June 23rd 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
VC try this link http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/sport/4418238.Rugby__Vunipola_brothers_aim_to_reach_new_heights/. It’s how two brothers of Tongan extract ended up playing for Eng U18’s. Interesting story.
Lion Red said | June 23rd 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
James B – Do you really think Carl Hayman will return to NZ? I certainly hope so!
JamesB said | June 23rd 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Brad – I believe it would make Brad Thorn the oldest AB.
Lion Red – I’m not sure if he will return and play in S14, but I’m of the belief they will select him anyway (i.e. bend the rules) for RWC 2011. He is the best prop in the world, and outside of Tony Woodcock NZ lacks someone of his class, technically proficient, with brut strength,who is extremely mobile, has a high work rate, and is experienced in RWC’s.
Greg Russell said | June 23rd 2009 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Knives Out has stolen my thunder a little bit.
With regard to Cruden, I was going to comment that it’s very dangerous to extrapolate from junior-level brilliance to what will happen at senior level. Who would believe now that David Nalbandian out-performed Roger Federer when they were juniors together, or that Pete Sampras was considered the ugly duckling of his group of USA juniors, which included also Agassi, Courier and Chang?
Knives Out’s list highlights that Polota-Nau and Josh Holmes have not gone on to become the forces in world rugby that Australian fans had anticipated after their performances at under-age level. Why should Cruden be any different to them?
One also has to acknowledge that many of the very best junior players skip these under-age tournaments: O’Connor is not there this year, and to the best of my knowledge Giteau and Carter never participated. So the fact that Cruden was even in Japan perhaps suggests a certain limitation of talent.
But I guess this year has confirmed that the cupboard of no. 10s is not exactly overflowing in NZ, and this may see Cruden rise meteorically.
In many ways I hope not. I think most rugby aficionados can see that Isaia Toeava is the very special talent that the NZ selectors have maintained him to be, but that promoting him to the All Blacks at such a young age did far more damage to him than it did good. Some kids seem to prosper when promoted at a very young age (e.g. Phil Hughes in cricket), but far more are damaged by the excessive burden of expectation that results. In Toeava’s case I think he is still yet to recover.
Best to let Cruden work his way up through the ranks over a decent period of time than to fast-track him.
Greg Russell said | June 23rd 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
One other thing: I did not watch any of these games, but from reading match reports, from comparing scorelines from different matches, and from considering history, I have a very strong suspicion that both England and Australia are spooked by playing New Zealand. In order to have any chance of winning, you have to truly believe you are capable fo winning. I don’t think either Australia or England truly believed they could beat NZ.
JamesB said | June 23rd 2009 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Ken Rutherford as a 19 yr old against the likes of Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, and Walsh in the Windies springs to mind. I think his batting average over 6 innings was 1.3!!!
Greg Russell said | June 23rd 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
A propos nothing at all: did anyone else watching the Confederations Cup notice that the All Whites, almost alone in NZ sport, do not get to perform a haka? Interesting that, isn’t it. It’s not because they don’t want to perform a haka, but because FIFA rigidly does not allow them. Why? Think about it!
In writing the above, I admit that – as Knives Out would say – I’m seeking to get the chickens a’clucking. Any haka advocates might wish to consider the above point. I guess I’ll probably have to wear a few vitriolic shots for making this point (yeah, yeah, I hate NZ, I hate the All Blacks, we all know these are true). But really, I’m just passing on Sepp Blatter’s message (and one thing that is true: I am no lover of Sepp Blatter!).
Brett McKay said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Greg, I joined the telecast after the NZ-Iraq game started, but did wonder if they performed the haka. Is that really the case, FIFA don’t allow it?? Imagine what traditional native dances and war-cries could bring to football?!?
What I did notice though, was that the All Whites were in fact playing in black (and Iraq were of course in all white). And just to prove the whole world has gone insane, the All Blacks for this season have changed their alternate strip from silver to WHITE!! So the All Whites sometimes play in black, and the All Blacks will sometimes play in white. Everyone follow??
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
Greg – so FIFA bans something, but everyone else doesn’t. But FIFA’s right. And it must be because of whatever advantage you perceive. Not cause FIFA’s generally an extraordinarily rigid and inflexible bunch of ego driven control freaks. No, no, no.
Brett – the AB’s alternate strip has traditionally been white, it was only 2007 that they wore the silver strip.
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
And seriously – the ‘didn’t believe they could win’ argument? Why would they not? That argument is incredibly lame.
retired rucker said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Sam,
Well done NZ on your completley unepected U20’s victory! HaHa
I was’nt aware of the huge wraps the Aus U20’s had but “major failure” might be a bit of a provocative word to label the U20’s with. Maybee its Nucifora you have an issue with – didn’t take the Blues where you’d hoped?
I do think we could give someone else a go though, self appointment smells rotten and self serving.
Failure will be the AB’s not winning the 2011 WC- apparentley no one else can!
All water off a duck’s back
retired rucker said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Sam,
well have to cattch up for a beer in Christchurch or Auckland at the 2011 WC for a beer, maybe before the aus/nz semi. Hemjay should join us
ohtani's jacket said | June 23rd 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Greg,
Carter played for New Zealand Under 21 in 2002. McCaw played for the New Zealand Under 19 in 1999 and New Zealand Under 21 in 2000 and 200, so rather than saying that Cruden was in Japan due to a certain limitation in talent, I think it’s fairer to say that the Australian Under-20 side showed a limitation in talent.
At least Spiro and others have pointed out how badly Australia crashed out of this tournament.
Spencer said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
Retired – Please ensure that Hemjay has taken his “anger management” pills before you meet him.
Spencer said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
OJ – I disagree that they crashed out badly. The Australian lads had the NZ lads 14-7 in the second half. A charge-down, lucky bounce, and a failure to control the tempo cost them. I am comfortable that Australian rugby is developing more depth and can compete against NZ at all levels. I recall that the Australian School boys beat NZ schools in the most recent match?
I would suggest that the entire U20 NZ team play in the RWC 2001, before they learn to choke.
Greg Russell said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
OJ wrote: “At least Spiro and others have pointed out how badly Australia crashed out of this tournament.”
Absolutely no argument from me on this, in fact it’s exactly the point I was trying to make. Something makes a team suddenly play lamely. If it wasn’t Suzie the waitress, then what was it? Could it not have been the sight of 15 black jerseys, not to mention the knowledge that NZ is invariably triumphant at these (and all other) levels?
Jerry wrote: “the ‘didn’t believe they could win’ argument? Why would they not?”
Try the fact that 6 England players were returning from the 38-3 defeat in last year’s final against NZ.
Seriously, what is wrong with suggesting that the All Blacks jersey has an aura and mystique that gets into the minds of opponents? You NZ supporters really should lighten up a bit and learn to take a compliment.
ohtani's jacket said | June 23rd 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
You win or lose on your merits. New Zealand only had one player from last year’s title winners (Zac Guildford) and they still managed to win. Is it the jersey or the system?
retired rucker said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:18pm | Report comment
Greg,
Surely at the U20’s level it is up to the coach to dispel any insecurities about playing an u20’s AB’s.
the 18-25 year olds I employ seem only to believe in self over all else. Maybe the self belief isn’t backed up with the other elements of succes. If the Aus U20’s hhad been told they are the best or expected to win it was a recipie for defeat.
Maybe Nucifora didn’t speak to them politley and they took offence, not very thick skinned these youngsters, no cane, no bastardisation, no bullying, no one to tell them their wrong, overprotective mums, can’t cook or clean for themselves , generally soft. Maybe where the Mongrel went!
A wee rant, it must be those employees, the upside of the GFC is the’ve all of the sudden become attentive and much politer!
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
Well, for one no one in the NZ U-20’s team was wearing an All Blacks jersey.
Secondly, the whole “mystique” and “didn’t think they could win” argument is just a cop out in my opinion. They didn’t win, the same reason Ireland & Scotland have never beaten the All Blacks and why most teams lose to them. Cause they’re not good enough.
Bill said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
James Be
you got one wrong Rococoko wont be there he is not the player he was ???? 2 years is along time mate and many young players will show there hand and be picked i’m sure before the world cup, just look at a couple of the u20 boy’s that did the job on the weekend
Hemjay said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
Seems even when I’m not posting people feel the need to have a go, how pathetic Spencer get a grip.
Bill said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:56pm | Report comment
Jerry..
i think you might have to eat your words before the world cup, u cant compare history of a ireland and scotland side to a U20 side that showed plenty of ability and skill to go to the next level after beating the best age group country’s around the world ?
retired rucker said | June 23rd 2009 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
Jerry,
Fair call and the line most captains pull out at the press conference when they loose, not good enough. The question is why where they not good enough?
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
Why would I have to eat my words? If Ireland manage to beat the AB’s it won’t be cause they suddenly have the belief – I’m sure many Irish sides have thought they had the ability to win. They didn’t – doesn’t mean that none will in the future.
Jerry said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
Or Scotland, I suppose (though they’d have to improve about 300% from their current state).
JamesB said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
Bill – you may turn out to be right about Rococoko, and he is the one player whom i listed that I have a question mark about. But he has two things going for him – age and an exceptional record at test level, so it may just be a form issue which will come right over time.
ABMAN said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
Dam why are so many people concerned with how well or bad our NZ teams are doing?
Cruden is a guy with a lot of potential and it seems some of the non Kiwi supporters are trying to tear him down already.
What is it with some of the people in here it seems all you want to do is tear strips off everyones country and there is quite a phenomenal amount of anti New Zealand sentiment why?
Is it because the All Blacks are the benchmark of World Rugby?
Is it an inferiority complex from people who see themselves as more important and how dare the little Kiwis be better than us?
NZ won the under 20’s because they happened to be the best team there funnily enough.
England made the final for a second year running but got another thrashing what does that say?
If anything it was the traditional rivals New Zealand and Australia that put on a great match in the Semi Final. The tournament unleashed some potential stars and lets just wait and see how these lads go in the next few years.
I’m quite excited about the potential of Robinson
Knives out said | June 23rd 2009 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
Jerry & Ohtani, I think what Mr. Russell says has some merit. Whenever France played NZ and Bernard Laporte was in control of Les Bleus he persistently talked up the ‘physical difference’ between the two sides. I bet the junior English side would have preferred to play Australia or SA rather than NZ in the final. The English attitude is that there is no SH, there is NZ and then SA & Australia. They are the All Blacks, remember, not just New Zealand.
Brad said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
GUYS, NZ ALWAYS WIN THE AGE GRADE WORLD CUPS, NZ LOSING IS THE EXCEPTION. AUSTRALIA HAVE NEVR WON THE UNDER 21 OR UNDER 19 SO WHY WOULD THE UNDER 20 BE ANY DIFFERENT? SEMI FINAL IS PRETTY GOOD BY THEIR STANDARDS
Ian Noble said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
Brad
Neither has England, Whilst it would good to have bragging rights, for most countries it is all about development as in the past very few at the junior levels actually make the grade at senior level.
Working Class Rugger said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
Brad
I think you’ll find that Australia beat NZ in the Final of the U19’s WC a few years back. The year Lachie turner ran down the sideline to score.
ABMAN said | June 23rd 2009 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
New Zealand don’t always win the age Grades just most of the time. Of the 11 age grade titles we have won 6
U19 World Champions 2004-07
2004 New Zealand 34 – 11 France
2005 South Africa 20 – 15 New Zealand
2006 Australia 17 – 13 New Zealand
2007 New Zealand 31 – 7 South Africa
U21 World Champions
2002 South Africa 24 – 22 Australia
2003 New Zealand 24 – 10 Australia
2004 New Zealand 47 – 19 Ireland
2005 South Africa 20 – 15 Australia
2006 France 24 – 13 South Africa
New Zealand has now won both U20 world cups 2008 and 09
Colin N said | June 24th 2009 @ 12:17am | Report comment
“Am I right in thinking there are a couple of chaps of Pacific Island extraction in the England U18s set-up? How did that come about?”
Yes I think so. I think it was the British Army connections, therefore their sons or younger brothers were probably brought up in this country. Two Fijians also play for the England Sevens team through the British Army.
There’s also three other Armitage brother plying their trade in the London irish academy. One plays prop, another centre and I can’t remember where the other brother plays, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he was a second row!!!
Lion Red said | June 24th 2009 @ 7:34am | Report comment
James B – Agree with you about Hayman abilities however I cannot see him playing for the AB’s in the 2011 WC unless he is playing in the S14 or the ANZC.
Terry Kidd said | June 24th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Can anyone help me out here? I’m wondering if young Winston Stanley from the NZ U20s is related to the great Joe Stanley? If so, what does that say for his rugby pedegree?
Greg Russell said | June 24th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
As with almost all team sports, overall performance on a rugby field is a complex matrix of talent, psychology, technical coaching, tactical preparation, team chemistry, conditions, refereeing, and so on. If I suggest that the Baby Blacks had an advantage in one area (psychology), I am at a loss to see how this gets interpreted as me saying that they ONLY won because of this. Of course the NZ U20 team had lots of talent (especially in the backs), was produced by an excellent system, and so on.
Similarly, why can some people not see that there is a genuine (and understandable) psychological effect from always or almost always losing to the All Blacks?
I am tempted to quote some Stephen Jones, but I will resist.
Jerry said | June 24th 2009 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Terry – Winston Stanley is the brother of current Auckland Blue, Benson Stanley. They are both nephews of Joe Stanley.
Jerry said | June 24th 2009 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Also, apparently Winston Stanley is born in Australia!
Terry Kidd said | June 24th 2009 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Lol …. thanks very much Jerry. I figured with a surname like that there had to be a connection …. and I’m still smiling about the ‘born in Australia’ bit …. what goes around, comes around. We snare O’Connor, Cooper and Pocock, you snare Stanley. Although with his pedegree you couldn’t imagine him wanting to play for anyone but the ABs if he scales those heights.
Greg Russell said | June 24th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
“Although with his pedegree you couldn’t imagine him wanting to play for anyone but the ABs if he scales those heights.”
Exactly. It would be almost sacrilegious for a Stanley to play for any country other than NZ, regardless of where they were born (and raised?).
Jerry, could you please clarify: Jeremy Stanley is Joe’s son, and thus the cousin of Benson and Winston, yes? Is that it in terms of current-generation Stanleys, or are there others we should know about?
As far as I am aware James O’Connor was born and raised in Australia, so I don’t think he should be termed a “snare”. Rather, it would be a snare were he to play for NZ (where his parents were born) or South Africa (where a grandmother was born).
The Pocock family is from Zimbabwe, so one can argue that immigration to Australia has given David an opportunity he would otherwise not have had. Maybe this makes him a snare, maybe not.
Yes, overall Australia does well out of NZ born and often raised rugby players (Richard Kingi being the latest to emerge). But the favour is well and truly returned in rugby league.
Jerry said | June 24th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Greg – yeah, Jeremy is Joe’s son (and therefore cousin to Benson and Winston). Jeremy and Joe Stanley actually share a record as the All Black father and son combo with the shortest time between their careers. Joe retired at the end of the 91 season and Jeremy was selected for the All Blacks in 1997. John Hart was a key man in both of their careers – he coached Joe Stanley for Auckland in the late 80’s and also with the All Blacks in 1991 and he also selected Jeremy for the end of season tour in 97. Jeremy never really lived up to his father’s record, unfortunately as he had a fair amount of injury problems which eventually cut his career short after only 5 or so seasons. Still, he was fairly well positioned for life after rugby being a qualified surgeon. He also married a former Silver Fern captain.
I agree about the ‘poaching’ jibes – there’s so much immigration between the two countries there’s bound to be players born in one country and raised in the other.
Greg Russell said | June 24th 2009 @ 5:13pm | Report comment
Jerry – thanks. Yeah, Jeremy Stanley may have been unlucky with injuries in rugby, but he certainly got dealt more than enough other excellent cards to make up for this – Anna S/Rowberry, medical degree, playing softball for Samoa, etc. A guy like him should certainly have no regrets. In some ways he was lucky to get out of rugby, because he could never have lived up to his father’s reputation, but it is what people could not have helped but expect of him.
Viscount Crouchback said | June 25th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Thanks for the link, Lion Red. Fantastic stuff. I know that part of the world very well indeed.
Brad said | June 25th 2009 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
For my part I thought Jeremy Stanley was brilliant. If Rua Tipoki (now with Munster) had controlled his aggression more he could have been great as well. Those 2 stand out as the centres that could have been in NZ especially since the All Blacks only play fullbacks at centre in world cups. (99 cullen, 2003 Mcdonald, 2007 Mills). That could explain the the All Black selectors obsession with Toeava at centre, he is an accomplished fullback.
Roy Kneebone said | September 19th 2009 @ 4:14am | Report comment
Spiro
I rate Fitzpatrick very,very highly but with only 1 year age difference between him and David Pocock, i just cant see him ever being wallaby captain.
click on: http://media.smh.com.au/sport/wallabies-new-gen/future-wallabies-captain-734678.html