Comments on: Aaron Cruden, New Zealand’s latest rugby star

By: Roy Kneebone

Roy Kneebone — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:14:20 +0000

Spiro

I rate Fitzpatrick very,very highly but with only 1 year age difference between him and David Pocock, i just cant see him ever being wallaby captain.

click on: http://media.smh.com.au/sport/wallabies-new-gen/future-wallabies-captain-734678.html

By: Brad

Brad — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:53:23 +0000

For my part I thought Jeremy Stanley was brilliant. If Rua Tipoki (now with Munster) had controlled his aggression more he could have been great as well. Those 2 stand out as the centres that could have been in NZ especially since the All Blacks only play fullbacks at centre in world cups. (99 cullen, 2003 Mcdonald, 2007 Mills). That could explain the the All Black selectors obsession with Toeava at centre, he is an accomplished fullback.

By: Viscount Crouchback

Viscount Crouchback — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:28:38 +0000

Thanks for the link, Lion Red. Fantastic stuff. I know that part of the world very well indeed.

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:13:30 +0000

Jerry – thanks. Yeah, Jeremy Stanley may have been unlucky with injuries in rugby, but he certainly got dealt more than enough other excellent cards to make up for this – Anna S/Rowberry, medical degree, playing softball for Samoa, etc. A guy like him should certainly have no regrets. In some ways he was lucky to get out of rugby, because he could never have lived up to his father’s reputation, but it is what people could not have helped but expect of him.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:47:04 +0000

Greg – yeah, Jeremy is Joe’s son (and therefore cousin to Benson and Winston). Jeremy and Joe Stanley actually share a record as the All Black father and son combo with the shortest time between their careers. Joe retired at the end of the 91 season and Jeremy was selected for the All Blacks in 1997. John Hart was a key man in both of their careers – he coached Joe Stanley for Auckland in the late 80′s and also with the All Blacks in 1991 and he also selected Jeremy for the end of season tour in 97. Jeremy never really lived up to his father’s record, unfortunately as he had a fair amount of injury problems which eventually cut his career short after only 5 or so seasons. Still, he was fairly well positioned for life after rugby being a qualified surgeon. He also married a former Silver Fern captain.

I agree about the ‘poaching’ jibes – there’s so much immigration between the two countries there’s bound to be players born in one country and raised in the other.

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:31:20 +0000

“Although with his pedegree you couldn’t imagine him wanting to play for anyone but the ABs if he scales those heights.”

Exactly. It would be almost sacrilegious for a Stanley to play for any country other than NZ, regardless of where they were born (and raised?).

Jerry, could you please clarify: Jeremy Stanley is Joe’s son, and thus the cousin of Benson and Winston, yes? Is that it in terms of current-generation Stanleys, or are there others we should know about?

As far as I am aware James O’Connor was born and raised in Australia, so I don’t think he should be termed a “snare”. Rather, it would be a snare were he to play for NZ (where his parents were born) or South Africa (where a grandmother was born).

The Pocock family is from Zimbabwe, so one can argue that immigration to Australia has given David an opportunity he would otherwise not have had. Maybe this makes him a snare, maybe not.

Yes, overall Australia does well out of NZ born and often raised rugby players (Richard Kingi being the latest to emerge). But the favour is well and truly returned in rugby league.

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:30:38 +0000

Lol …. thanks very much Jerry. I figured with a surname like that there had to be a connection …. and I’m still smiling about the ‘born in Australia’ bit …. what goes around, comes around. We snare O’Connor, Cooper and Pocock, you snare Stanley. Although with his pedegree you couldn’t imagine him wanting to play for anyone but the ABs if he scales those heights.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:06:43 +0000

Also, apparently Winston Stanley is born in Australia!

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:06:17 +0000

Terry – Winston Stanley is the brother of current Auckland Blue, Benson Stanley. They are both nephews of Joe Stanley.

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:51:20 +0000

As with almost all team sports, overall performance on a rugby field is a complex matrix of talent, psychology, technical coaching, tactical preparation, team chemistry, conditions, refereeing, and so on. If I suggest that the Baby Blacks had an advantage in one area (psychology), I am at a loss to see how this gets interpreted as me saying that they ONLY won because of this. Of course the NZ U20 team had lots of talent (especially in the backs), was produced by an excellent system, and so on.

Similarly, why can some people not see that there is a genuine (and understandable) psychological effect from always or almost always losing to the All Blacks?

I am tempted to quote some Stephen Jones, but I will resist.

By: Terry Kidd

Terry Kidd — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:11:37 +0000

Can anyone help me out here? I’m wondering if young Winston Stanley from the NZ U20s is related to the great Joe Stanley? If so, what does that say for his rugby pedegree?

By: Lion Red

Lion Red — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:34:30 +0000

James B – Agree with you about Hayman abilities however I cannot see him playing for the AB’s in the 2011 WC unless he is playing in the S14 or the ANZC.

By: Colin N

Colin N — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:17:32 +0000

“Am I right in thinking there are a couple of chaps of Pacific Island extraction in the England U18s set-up? How did that come about?”

Yes I think so. I think it was the British Army connections, therefore their sons or younger brothers were probably brought up in this country. Two Fijians also play for the England Sevens team through the British Army.

There’s also three other Armitage brother plying their trade in the London irish academy. One plays prop, another centre and I can’t remember where the other brother plays, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he was a second row!!!

By: ABMAN

ABMAN — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:47:43 +0000

New Zealand don’t always win the age Grades just most of the time. Of the 11 age grade titles we have won 6

U19 World Champions 2004-07
2004 New Zealand 34 – 11 France
2005 South Africa 20 – 15 New Zealand
2006 Australia 17 – 13 New Zealand
2007 New Zealand 31 – 7 South Africa

U21 World Champions

2002 South Africa 24 – 22 Australia
2003 New Zealand 24 – 10 Australia
2004 New Zealand 47 – 19 Ireland
2005 South Africa 20 – 15 Australia
2006 France 24 – 13 South Africa

New Zealand has now won both U20 world cups 2008 and 09

By: Working Class Rugger

Working Class Rugger — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:13:24 +0000

Brad

I think you’ll find that Australia beat NZ in the Final of the U19′s WC a few years back. The year Lachie turner ran down the sideline to score.

By: Ian Noble

Ian Noble — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:13:23 +0000

Brad

Neither has England, Whilst it would good to have bragging rights, for most countries it is all about development as in the past very few at the junior levels actually make the grade at senior level.

By: Brad

Brad — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:06:37 +0000

GUYS, NZ ALWAYS WIN THE AGE GRADE WORLD CUPS, NZ LOSING IS THE EXCEPTION. AUSTRALIA HAVE NEVR WON THE UNDER 21 OR UNDER 19 SO WHY WOULD THE UNDER 20 BE ANY DIFFERENT? SEMI FINAL IS PRETTY GOOD BY THEIR STANDARDS

By: Knives out

Knives out — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:59:58 +0000

Jerry & Ohtani, I think what Mr. Russell says has some merit. Whenever France played NZ and Bernard Laporte was in control of Les Bleus he persistently talked up the ‘physical difference’ between the two sides. I bet the junior English side would have preferred to play Australia or SA rather than NZ in the final. The English attitude is that there is no SH, there is NZ and then SA & Australia. They are the All Blacks, remember, not just New Zealand.

By: ABMAN

ABMAN — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:39:46 +0000

Dam why are so many people concerned with how well or bad our NZ teams are doing?
Cruden is a guy with a lot of potential and it seems some of the non Kiwi supporters are trying to tear him down already.
What is it with some of the people in here it seems all you want to do is tear strips off everyones country and there is quite a phenomenal amount of anti New Zealand sentiment why?
Is it because the All Blacks are the benchmark of World Rugby?
Is it an inferiority complex from people who see themselves as more important and how dare the little Kiwis be better than us?
NZ won the under 20′s because they happened to be the best team there funnily enough.
England made the final for a second year running but got another thrashing what does that say?
If anything it was the traditional rivals New Zealand and Australia that put on a great match in the Semi Final. The tournament unleashed some potential stars and lets just wait and see how these lads go in the next few years.
I’m quite excited about the potential of Robinson

By: JamesB

JamesB — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:36 +0000

Bill – you may turn out to be right about Rococoko, and he is the one player whom i listed that I have a question mark about. But he has two things going for him – age and an exceptional record at test level, so it may just be a form issue which will come right over time.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:06:06 +0000

Or Scotland, I suppose (though they’d have to improve about 300% from their current state).

By: Jerry

Jerry — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:01:04 +0000

Why would I have to eat my words? If Ireland manage to beat the AB’s it won’t be cause they suddenly have the belief – I’m sure many Irish sides have thought they had the ability to win. They didn’t – doesn’t mean that none will in the future.

By: retired rucker

retired rucker — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:57:18 +0000

Jerry,

Fair call and the line most captains pull out at the press conference when they loose, not good enough. The question is why where they not good enough?

By: Bill

Bill — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:56:15 +0000

Jerry..
i think you might have to eat your words before the world cup, u cant compare history of a ireland and scotland side to a U20 side that showed plenty of ability and skill to go to the next level after beating the best age group country’s around the world ?

By: Hemjay

Hemjay — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:51:28 +0000

Seems even when I’m not posting people feel the need to have a go, how pathetic Spencer get a grip.

By: Bill

Bill — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:46:07 +0000

James Be
you got one wrong Rococoko wont be there he is not the player he was ???? 2 years is along time mate and many young players will show there hand and be picked i’m sure before the world cup, just look at a couple of the u20 boy’s that did the job on the weekend

By: Jerry

Jerry — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:23:27 +0000

Well, for one no one in the NZ U-20′s team was wearing an All Blacks jersey.

Secondly, the whole “mystique” and “didn’t think they could win” argument is just a cop out in my opinion. They didn’t win, the same reason Ireland & Scotland have never beaten the All Blacks and why most teams lose to them. Cause they’re not good enough.

By: retired rucker

retired rucker — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:18:56 +0000

Greg,

Surely at the U20′s level it is up to the coach to dispel any insecurities about playing an u20′s AB’s.

the 18-25 year olds I employ seem only to believe in self over all else. Maybe the self belief isn’t backed up with the other elements of succes. If the Aus U20′s hhad been told they are the best or expected to win it was a recipie for defeat.

Maybe Nucifora didn’t speak to them politley and they took offence, not very thick skinned these youngsters, no cane, no bastardisation, no bullying, no one to tell them their wrong, overprotective mums, can’t cook or clean for themselves , generally soft. Maybe where the Mongrel went!

A wee rant, it must be those employees, the upside of the GFC is the’ve all of the sudden become attentive and much politer!

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:59:59 +0000

You win or lose on your merits. New Zealand only had one player from last year’s title winners (Zac Guildford) and they still managed to win. Is it the jersey or the system?

By: Greg Russell

Greg Russell — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:25:24 +0000

OJ wrote: “At least Spiro and others have pointed out how badly Australia crashed out of this tournament.”

Absolutely no argument from me on this, in fact it’s exactly the point I was trying to make. Something makes a team suddenly play lamely. If it wasn’t Suzie the waitress, then what was it? Could it not have been the sight of 15 black jerseys, not to mention the knowledge that NZ is invariably triumphant at these (and all other) levels?

Jerry wrote: “the ‘didn’t believe they could win’ argument? Why would they not?”

Try the fact that 6 England players were returning from the 38-3 defeat in last year’s final against NZ.

Seriously, what is wrong with suggesting that the All Blacks jersey has an aura and mystique that gets into the minds of opponents? You NZ supporters really should lighten up a bit and learn to take a compliment.