Exactly, KO.

Win or lose we’re on the booze, and if it’s a draw then we drink some more!

I have become a fervent Irish rugby supporter over the years, 2nd only to the boks, and was as stressed & ecstatic as anyone else in green in Cardiff at the grandslam decider a few months back. Fans on both sides were as passionate as I’ve ever seen but exemplary in sportmanship after.

I think the vast majority of real rugby fans around the world are knowlegeable and broadminded. I think journalists often lower the bar, because scandal sells.

Congrats to the Lions on a well-deserved win on Sat. I think they were unlucky not to win the series, on balance and given the stats (I think the reverse was true in ’97! ;o)

Sláinte

Interesting to hear your take on matters re Irish view of things. Except it’s a little bit myopic. You hear what you want to hear. For the most part, people have forgotten about the AB tackle on O’Driscoll, and when it’s raised, it tends to get a large sigh and ‘oh please, not that again. People have moved on. AB rugby probabky has a distant respect, probably because they are undoubtedly the No 1 team in the world – SA’s recent victories notwithstanding. But New Zealand is waaaaay down there somewhere, and the 6 Nations are of much greater interest understandably.

Some Gaelic sports fans think the aussie rules team were a bunch of thugs for their actions in the series in 2006. And they’d be right. Last year, the series held in Australia was a far better affair with both countries setting out to ensure in advance that fair play permeated the test matches. They did and the series was a success. People generally have a lot fo time for the Wallabies – they’ve integrated themselves into the Irish rugby scene – witness Leinster this year with management and Elsom – and they are held in high regard – particularly because of the historial connection between the two countries.

The England rugby team are the team people want to beat – that’s the same with everyone. albeit in recent years – with 4 wins out of 5, the pressure’s off somewhat. France are now the team to beat – and I suspect Wales have become the new boo-boys in Irish rugby. Let’s face it, who are the best fans to go for a drink with afterwards? The English – by a mile.

Mary McAleese? Rehashed consistently by the media whenever the Irl v Eng game comes round – and no-one else cares.

Croke Park shootings 80 years ago?? Gimme a break. It got rehashed for the first game at Croke Park, and then got promptly dropped afterwards as a piece of historical anecdote – particularly after the exemplary behaviour of both sets of fans at the match – and of course the tanning we gave them!! Couldn’t resist that.

Bottom line? if you’ve been here for 10 years, go talk with a few more people about what they really think as opposed to the inevitable exaggerated hype and xenophobic bile you often get on forums like these that bears little reality with what everyday people think everyday.

I love visiting South Africa, love the people, the place, the culture. Does Burger or PdV actions change any of this? Not in the slightest.

I believe the debate re Burger has moved on. It has become a wider debate about dangerous play in rugby and the need for the IRB to stamp it out. I don’t believe that crass post match comments by PdeV have helped but the IRB have been forced to look at the Burger incident and review their directives. As O’Driscoll implied in his comments the actions of top rugby has an impact outside the immediate arena and could have an adverse effect on the growth of the game.

My Irish friends tell me that rugby in the last few years has grown enormously in Ireland, reinforced by the recent grand slam. One of them suggested that it was pushing Gaelic sports hard because of it’s international dimension and in parts of the country was out performing football, perhaps too much blarney from them or the back stuff!!

But then I did some thinking, and I realised that there never will be any balanced, rational thinking in these matters.

I have been living in Ireland for the last 10 years, and it’s given me an understanding of how these things work. Here are a few examples:

1) How do the Irish view the last Lions tour of New Zealand, and All Black rugby in general these days? Is there respect for the wonderful All Black rugby tradition, and of the convincing 3-0 Lions whitewash? No, unfortunately not. o’Driscoll’s speartackle and All Black rugby are still synonomous over here.

2) A lot of Gaelic sports fans in Ireland (which comprise this country’s two most popular sports, with rugby only 4th on the list) think of the Australians as a bunch of thugs, because of the violence in the International Rules series culminating at Croke Park in 2006. My flatmate, a doctor, vowed never to set foot in Australia as a result.

3) How do the Irish view the English rugby team? Well there’s bitterness that Martin Johnson made President Mary McAleese walk off the red carpet when he lined his team on the wrong side at the grand slam decider in 2003. And of course, there’s the wee not-so-current matters of the 14 gaelic supporters murdered at Croke Park in 1920 by the Black and Tans, and the 600 years of British subjugation.

Is any of this rational, and relevant to rugby in 2009? Does it do justice to the countries involved?

I am proud of how South Africa has transformed since 1994, I see better social integration every year when I go back, I see the great black rugby talent coming through at all levels. I know what it means to the country to have won the 2 world cups and how it helped bring the nation together.

I ‘ve experienced a fantastic Lions series of 2 great teams playing their hearts out to the final whistle.

But because of an indefensible act by one person. and the stupid subsequent comments by his coach, Spiro Zavos and the many others of you out there will succeed in convincing large parts of the world reeling in bitter disappointment at defeat in a close series, that South Africans are all a bunch of thugs and eye-gougers.

And it saddens me. But it’s some consolation that the English, New Zealanders, and Australians, are held in similar regard on this little green island.

“Evil prospers when good men do nothing” is actually attributed to John Philpott Curran, an Irish orator of some reknown. It’s also sometimes attributed to another Irish orator and politician, Edmund Burke who said: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

Whether this should be applied to Burger et al is another story.

…as for PDVs rather wonky views…the man’s deluded and needs to go to save face….

You’ve got to admit your bias!

Every example people have given listing Wallaby thuggery – you’ve gone “oh no, THATS no thuggish”, then you’ve procedded to call lesser acts by non-wallabies thuggery.

ALL the examples people have listed have no place in the game and were pretty damn low acts, so pull ya head out of the sand and face facts – aussie players are just as capable of thuggery as the next bloke.

Interestingly, I couldn’t find an email address on the IRB website so I was unable to share my thoughts with them. Doesn’t say much about which century the IRB thinks it’s operating in!

I’d love to see Burger sued for assault, but he’d probably get a lenient court in South Africa. I also think players who want to act that way should be rubbed out of the game. Botha is another case in point.

It’s time the punishment matched the crime.

Meanwhile, Lote Tuqiri – whatever his current form – looks like he’s had his contract cancelled for some relatively minor social indiscretion. OK, so he’s a repeat offender and probably should be dropped from the Wallabies’ squad if he’s broken team protocols once more, but Burger gets eight weeks and Tuqiri’s kicked out of the game? Gimme a break!

David Benuik reports on The Roar that it’s “understood” Tuqiri hasn’t broken the law. If Burger did his eye-guging in a public place, he’d be up for assault quick-smart. So how about some consistency?

A sick wind up, if ever I’ve heard one. (She was raped a while back)

No justification… but poor form from the Lions ?

Yes, George probably does know Burger better than I do, but now he’s a recedevist and fully deserving of a lengthy ban.

How fitting, and ironic that you would end with this beaut:

“Evil prospers when good men do nothing.”

Which is why Burger and his ilk deserve the public demonisation they receive. What a negligent and peculiar attitude you wield.

Viscount: If I’ve told you once I’ve told you a million times to stop exaggerating.

Anyway, thanks guys it’s been fun. But now I’m just wasting time here. I’ll be back after the next test, when there will no doubt be more wild accusations, excuses and exaggerations by the usual suspects that will need to be countered. After all I have no choice – what’s that saying, “Evil prospers when good men do nothing.”

Obviously I’m not the only person who recalls this base incident, Daryll:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/08/26/maneaters-fail-at-rugby/

In this universe that’s just more of your unfounded accusations facaded as fact.

*yawn*

“You could say double standards had he commented on the Burger case, which I don’t think he has.”
That’s not the point, as to whether he personally has said anything. If the case was as widely publicized there in the UK, then others have to have read O’Connels excusing of Quinlands deed. Including his fellow countrymen, like O’Driscoll. Then why such a vehemant response to De Villiers defending of Burger. Now I grant you De Villiers doesn’t always say things as clearly as he should, but remember that English is not his first language. But regardless of my own feelings about De Villiers, which are not entirely favourable, I would never expect that he’s actually condoning eye gouging. But the press run with that, and react to it dissecting his statements with surgical precision, and hanging on every syllable. Yet not more than a few months ago, their own Lions captain effectively said the same thing: “If it looked bad, I am sure there was nothing in it.” That’s effectively what De Villiers was saying. Yet he gets crucified for this. Surely the Lions media were not all ignorant of the O’Connell comment.

It’s all just too convenient, and very hypocritical. Thank you for your reasonable response. My own responses have largely been based on the (what I consider to be) exaggerated response from Lions fans on these threads to the Burger incident. There is no South African I know of that condones or would encourage his son, or brother to play rugby beyond the rules, as per eye gouging. Incidents do happen but to constantly paint all South Africans with the same broad brush is just tiring. I will admit that South African rugby suffered a particularly bad period under Straueli – ala the Red Mist day at Twickenham, the coaches that have succeeded Straeuli (particularly Jake White) have largely cleaned up that act, and cannot be accused of foul play anymore than any other country. Reading some of the exchanges between others on this site has been very enlightening in that regard. Personally I feel this Burger incident has been blown completely out of proportion, and to me it feels just too convenient. As if it’s a convenient excuse to hang onto to excuse other frailties. But that’s not really my place to comment.

For what it’s worth, I had great respect for this Lions team prior to their arrival, and felt that McGeechan had selected the perfect mix to combat the Springboks strengths. I was disappointed we bubble wrapped our Springboks in the pre test matches. I’ve been disappointed to read some of the Lions players responses re the Burger incident as if it explained the series loss, but this Lions team took some doing to beat. I never thought the Springboks would thrash the Lions as some Lions fans have suggested was our expectation, and I think seeing the Lions efficiency in the pre test matches made me more worried than ever about whether we had what it took to beat the Lions. This Lions squad can be proud of how they played, inasmuch as I will be proud of the series victory.

I will admit however that I am still hoping we win emphatically on Saturday just to squash any naysayers.

Agreed, this whole thing would quiet down much more quickly if Schalk actaully came forward and apologized. I’m not sure why he hasn’t done that, if not in public then at least to Luke in person. Maybe he’s been a bit overwhelmed by the rabid media response, but I still think he needs to do it.