When you’re rock bottom, the only way is up ! Does FIFA, the ICC or IOC have this type of ‘disrepute’ rubbish ?

I doubt it.

There was one incident in a test match where White had initially picked Jacque Fourie, but had to then drop Fourie and choose Breyton Paulse after an objection from the government. How must this affect Fourie, and also how must this make Paulse feel? Of course Paulse did not let himself down, and always deserved his spot, I felt, but there have been many others who didn’t. People like Hanyani Shimange, Lawrence Sephaka, Solly Tyibilika, Owen Nkumane, Quinton Davids, Ricky Januarie (who was in my view anyway not a merit selection this test series). There’s the Ndungane brothers who are ok but not the best. I don’t think PdV would have dropped Adrian “The Sieve” Jacobs if it wasn’t for the fact that he started Chilliboy Ralapelle … and Ralapelle himself is somebody who is backup to Derrick Kuun in his provincial team. When you look at any team selection, the changes will often reflect a balancing act of selection needs and political needs. I think because of the knowledge that there are ‘quotas’ as it is often called, mediocre non-white players are always suspected of being a quota selection, which fans the flames and isn’t fair on anybody involved.

Of course there’s the converse argument which is that because of the racist history of rugby in SA (non-whites excluded from rugby), there’s the belief that SA coaches persist with this and don’t select players to give them a chance, so the government feel they must force selections to give these players an opportunity. Would we ever know about Nokwe if he hadn’t been forced into selection? He didn’t do that well in his one test against the Lions this year, but he’s had some very good games in the S14, and in the tests last year. I however believe that a coach will choose the players that will win them games. It’s why the NBA has far more black players than there are black people as a percentage of the USA’s population, because those coaches know those guys will win them games. Yet this is the flawed statistic that the government uses as a smoke screen to validate their interference in rugby i.e. that a teams makeup should have a direct correlation with the racial makeup of a country. To me any such correlation is purely coincidental.

Fortunately we slowly have players coming through from good schools and clubs who fully deserve their spots without question. Players like Beast, like Habana and Pietersen. Zane Kirchner didn’t have a great test, but he had a very good S14. And there are others. But I don’t think we’ll ever be rid of this political interference while rugby remains important to white South Africans. As somebody here said, the government seem to take special pleasure in interfering or threatening to interfere with rugby, but seem to tolerate the poor administration, poor performances and oftentimes corruption in the South African Football Association.

So I’ve waffled on now, but haven’t even touched on issues like the damage it does to non-white players rushed into national teams for political convenience, the fact that white kids who had nothing to do with apartheid are prejudiced against because of the actions of their parents or grandparents, the effect it has on the team dynamics when some players are obvious political appointments, the effect it has on the players who know they are political appointments, the fact that the government loves to focus on the national team while giving only lipservice and promises to the grassroots levels where the real problem lies.

But hey, this is South Africa, and things are just different here than anywhere else, so by and large we just accept it and get on with it. But read In Black and White and you’ll have a newfound appreciation for what White accomplished during his tenure as Springbok coach. He should have called it Against All Odds.

My issue is still with the political situation. I don’t understand when you say that ‘it sucks…but there’s not much we can do about it anyway.’ Of course you can do something about it. Protest. Take to the streets. S A is not a police-run state – there is freedom of expression.

Why does no-one question this – on a regular basis?

Rather than consign it all into ‘well we’re a funny lot, and that’s part of what we are’, if you genuinely believe somthing is inequitable (rather than something trivial like Botha’s ban), why the hell don’t people get up off their arse and do something about it?

The politicians here made a running assumption that the Irish people would just stand up and vote like lemmings for the EU Lison Treaty. Instead, they all stood up and marched into the No camp. Red faces all round. And the policiticans had to go back to the drawing board. I know it’s not the same thing, but sport should be well above politics or at least outside its control. It belongs on the voluntary side of society, not in the hands of the state. I’ve no problem with state funding following policies that are for the betterment of sport overall such as capital infrastructure, or player development, but there’s a point where a line should be drawn.

That’s my view anyway. Not sure about anyone else on here.

‘I am still confused by the suggestion that SA rugby has been politically handicapped for a long time. If you examine the xvs from the past two World Cups there have been very, very few black players. Jake White may have had to deal with politicking and back room nonsense but apart from the Luke Watson saga his squad was clearly his own squad. I recognise that PdV is a political appointment, as Hoskens publicily admitted, but the current situation seems to be the first period in professional rugby that Springbok rugby has been undermined by politics. Is that incorrect?’

Maybe you would be so kind to answer the above, Neil.

Imagine how boring Sanzar would be without us? No wonder we contribute over 50% of income.

Sorry for the double posting. This stupid thing seems to be occupying alot of my thought patterns at the moment.

but there’s not too much we can do about it really. besides which, it keeps us on our toes, and like i say the south african mentality is very much one of strength in adversity.

we are very proud of the fact that despite this sort of thing, we are world champions of the sport. we love a siege mentality, we love being told we can’t, and then doing it.

but i think this really really irritates the likes of zavos, i’m not sure why though. i’m trying to understand the negativity towards us … greg smith is close with his assertions the other day, but i don’t think it’s quite right.

to quote from an article i read earlier from chris waldburger:

“De Villiers is a bit eccentric. He says some funny things and sometimes he says some silly things. And this kind of thing really annoys the cynical Europeans, whose countries often have to put up with bores like Gordon Brown and Prince Charles for inspiration. But that doesn’t mean we have to join in on the slating. South Africa is different. We aren’t slick and proper. we’re all a bit funny, just like Peter de Villiers. That’s how we play our rugby. We win matches we should never win, and we lose a couple we should never lose. Give me that and a few World Cups any day rather than the slick professionalism of Australia and the All Blacks.”

i think that’s a great description of the reason behind the tension towards the ‘south african’ way …

Are you seriously telling me that you don’t mind that politicians effectively run sport in your country? That they dictate who manages, who plays, etc.?

but seriously the brits n aussies just can’t understand or handle that aspect of our nature.

so they ban our players cos we play too rough.

agg shame.

I’m trying to imagine our Minister of Sport in Ireland saying something similar to Declan Kidney in media. He’d have a crowd outside his Departmental door the next morning inviting him out onto the street to dare him to repeat it. He wouldn’t survive.

Anyway, I’m now much more reluctant to comment on the whole Lions test affair, now that I’ve learned this. Trying to coach whilst being effectively politically handcuffed is simply intolerable. If the Boks wanted to come out wearing armbands seeking to highlight this issue, I’d support them and PdV every step of the way.

I’m actually quite surprised that PdV didn’t get into a lot of trouble for the game on Saturday when Pierre Spies was brought on for Ndungane at wing. At that moment, I think there was only the Beast on the field as a ‘non-white’ (actually what they term ‘previously disadvantaged’) player, and that’s well below the governments informal minimum requirement for PDA players on the field. The irony of course is that Beast went to a good school in Zimbabwe and didn’t actually suffer as a direct result of apartheid, yet is considered as a tick in the box for PDA players on the field.

Reminds me of Iron Curtain political sports from the sixties/seventies. An era and time I would prefer to forget in relation to their impact on sport and athletes of all types.

Minister of Sport in SA, Stofile has warned de Villiers to watch what he says next time, or risk losing his job. “The role of coach is to prepare the team,” said Stofile. “I know Peter well and like him, but the more he talks, the more confused he gets. He can get away with making colourful remarks while we are winning, but when we are losing it will be a serious problem. He will be the first to be fired and he has to sober up.”

For the first time in this whole thing, I’m standing on PdV’s side. Who the hell is this politician mouthing off? Are the Boks team under political control?

If I were PdV, and if his team really supported him, then I’d tell Stofile to go stick it where the sun don’t shine. And if Stofile wants to make an issue of it, why doesn’t he come down and sort it out with the boys personally?

Can you believe it? A frigging, jumped up sporting minister tries to tell a sporting coach how to do his job in public, through the media, as if he’s some servant of the state? Tell me it ain’t so.

I really hope the SA public back PdV and give Stofile such a shellacking that he doesn’t appear again until the WC in 2011.

I reckon BB is the best lock in world Rugby. He is exaclty the sort of player I wanted to be when I was playing and he is exactly the sort of player I coach young back five players to be – minus the dirt.

No question the clean out was one that is seen twenty times in a game and no question the suspension was bogus.

In saying all of this though, I think that the senior Boks players could have been a bit smarter in their protest. One of the loveliest memories I have of RWC 03 was the Scotland team winking and blinking at the camera a la Marty Leslie (who I once tried to recruit back to SH Rugby) in respect of Marty’s involuntary tick. Marty had been quite unfairly rubbed out for an incident in the last game of the round robin matches and the Scotland team sent a good message through their pre match tribute. Notably not all the players ion the team participated.

How shold the Boks have expressed support for their fallen comrade? Dunno; but not in the way that they did.

Bit of a storm in teacup the whole thing really.

Likewise, can South African Roarers add if there’s been adverse reaction in the Republic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBKpcM9l7M

He may not have recently deserved it but theres plenty of other times he should have and gotten away with it. Cheap shot merchant.

You say the outrage here is indicative of a deepseated resentment and probably a bit of jealousy. And that the Africans are giving the gentleman’s club IRB the finger. Sounds to me like you’re the one with a chip on your shoulder!

I’d like to think I’d be equally critical of any country’s team that tried to pull this kind of wholly inappropriate stunt. Especially in a week in which another of its players got a ridiculously LENIENT sentence for eye gouging. One can hardly claim the team is being victimised by judiciaries.

If this incident is indicative of anything, it is that the SA players are self-obsessed and lacking perspective, and there appear to be no adults minding the store, either within SARFU administration or the Boks’ team management itself.

Negative charges or negative punitive measures from the IRB against South Africa will further breakdown relationships – something that South Africans (with a long list of issues viz a viz the IRB) will maintain is the intention anyhow.

International rugby unions governing body (the IRB) manhandling a large member (RSA) would be a fair representation of how the IRB is currently underperforming in comparison with FIFA, the ICC or the IOC.

Give them hell South Africa – push this up a notch – we’re playing brinkmanship… lets go over the brink.

Is this Black Sheep status a mirror of current international relations (on a political level) ? Why is South Africa the ONLY country unhappy with the IRB ?

My enjoyment of our winning this Lions series will forever be sullied by the distraction of the Burger incident, and the wholesale changes and dismal performance in the 3rd test that were a missed opportunity of possibly securing the first ever 3-0 whitewash of the Lions in SA. Not saying we definitely would have won the third test, but now we’ll never know. What a pity.