Comments on: ECL model not the answer for Asian football

By: David V.

David V. — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:58:14 +0000

The ACL has only evolved into its current form recently. The real issue is that it is seen, both within and outside Asia, as lacking prestige compared to other continental competitions. Even the African club competitions have more prestige and tradition, but that’s because African football boasts a far deeper talent pool and a rich football heritage. It also has had a more consistent format and tradition compared with its Asian counterparts.

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:24:45 +0000

md, I’d love to see an ASEAN league, or at the very least some of the smaller countries playing in a larger league. This is already happening to some extent with Brunei’s DPMM FC playing in the S-League. It would be interesting if a team from Cambodia and perhaps Laos could also be included in the S-League though this may be financially prohibitive for the teams involved. For reasons of history the teams will refuse to play in Thailand and are probably reluctant to play in Vietnam. Singapore is a nice neutral venue for this part of the world.

The Singapore Cup invited one side from Indonesia & Cambodia and two from Thailand along with the sides from Brunei, Japan & Korea which already play in the S-League. Phnom Penh Crown defeated Young Lions to make it to the quarter finals where they face Bangkok Glass. It should be fun.

By: md

md — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:45:11 +0000

Interesting discussion. As you have said, there are plenty of reasons why it won’t work, but the notion of giving SE Asian nations something substantive to cheer for is a good one. I don’t think you would interest the Koreans or the Japanese though (and as a Sydney fan, I would be loathe for there to be another Sydney team playing the same game in a different league).

An Asean super-league on the other hand has a great deal of merit and might get off the ground. You would have to overcome the disparate views of the various FA’s though – eg the Malaysian are very insular at the moment and have kicked all their foreigners (even AFC ones) out.

Cheers
md

By: Gibbo

Gibbo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:54:35 +0000

correct you are ben, my point was more from a practical point of view though… for the foreseeable future, to the people who support these competitions, the laymen and women supporters, as opposed to the officials who officiate them or the sponsors who exploit them, ‘the champions league’ will be synonymous with the UEFA competition, and our competition will be known as the ‘asian champions league’. i reckon there’s a branding issue.

i’d love a dot. so good.

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:46:04 +0000

Gibbo, actually officially it is the AFC Champions League, not to be confused with the UEFA Champions League, the CONCACAF Champions League, the CAF Champions League nor the OFC Champions League

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:43:59 +0000

but if it had been an ES dot – that might have been 5Gs worth!!!

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:42:34 +0000

Mate, take a deep breath, put that sucker up to 11, and let it rip with a G5 power chord – let it hang a bit, and just let the feedback wash over you!!! (slowly raising your hand up into the sky a la School of Rock, or even the cover of Rainbow Rising)

By: Gibbo

Gibbo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:41:45 +0000

PS. they’re not worth 5g’s combined

By: Gibbo

Gibbo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:36:03 +0000

Pip – i’m running a gibbo les paul and an epiphone sheridan, one of the hollow bodys, so doesn’t exactly fit the example i’ve used…

and on ACL as a monkier – ACL abbreviates out the champions tag, the same way KFC abbreviates out the Fried part… although champions implies good and fried implies delicio… i mean, bad…
i’m getting caught up on labelling…

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:27:21 +0000

Brian

there are dark acts – and then there is the completely unfathomable.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:25:37 +0000

Just tell your mates your watching the ACL!!

By: Brian

Brian — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:25:35 +0000

Thanks for the article AndyRoo, was a good read. Like everyone else I have to conclude your idea is not viable. The calender is already full so that is the first of many problems. The drawbacks you highlighted of the ACL were interesting, especially what has happened in terms of widening the gap between rich and poor. Hence I agree with Nath, let lots of team s compete in a knockout competition so it takes longer for capitalism to determine the elite. In Europe it took over 50 years.

A side note on Thaksin Shinawatra. He invested his money in Man Cty as part of a future extradition defence against deportation back to Thailand. Much harder to convince authoroties to evict when the public loves you. Do you really think Abramovic prefers Chelsea to say CSKA Moscow. If I was a corrupt mega-rich tycoon fighting extradition in Melbourne I might just throw Collingwood a few bucks too.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:24:39 +0000

An ES dot or the Les Paul variety???

Min 5 Gs, don’t put your private address on here!!

By: Gibbo

Gibbo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:19:45 +0000

i reckon the thing that might hold back the ACL is the A at the start of it… the euros have their champions league, we have our “asian” champions league… it sounds like a knock off, and cheap knock offs out of the region don’t always have the best reputation (for example my american made gibson guitar is rated alot higher [and costs a few bob more] than its korean made epiphone equivalent, despite being identical to look at). Can’t we differentiate a little bit so when i tell my mates in a few months that i gotta nick home to catch the champions league (or whatever) they’ll know i’m supporting archie, muscat and the big V rather than tuning in to watch some miserable pommie gits taking on the continentals?

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 02:19:43 +0000

I agree that the day the Victory makes it, the reaction in Melbourne will be massive (but we can’t sell out the MCG because it won’t be home and away anymore).

By: melbvictory87

melbvictory87 — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 02:15:25 +0000

you know what, how about dont worry about the superleague idea and lets start embracing the ACL. the idea has potential to be huge all we need is more COVERAGE!!!! i know that if that was melbourne making the final last year we probably would have sold out the mcg, how about that for exposure

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 02:04:24 +0000

Pip, I have no idea re: India though Bayern Münich are making inroads there. China had some interesting stats which I saw somewhere (perhaps Goal.com) where 23% of football fans selected the Super League as their favourite league. Whilst EPL is still strongest there the level of parochialism that can be experienced in Asia needs to be taken into consideration. The interest in the EPL doesn’t always preclude interest in the domestic competition…. rather like Australia.

By: AndyRoo

AndyRoo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:48:00 +0000

Pip

Sounds funny when you say it like that (although we do sell camels to arabs), but I belive it’s realistic if the ACL keeps maintaining it’s rate of progress. It won’t happen overnight but Uruwa are allready becoming the first International brand from Domestic competition.

it wouldn’t really be switching from Man U it would be more like “turn it to channel 52 it’s Khairul Amri (Roar) vs Itimi Dickson Edherefe (Jets)”

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:36:16 +0000

Ben
what about China and India?

(more than half of the world’s population!!)

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:26:17 +0000

Pip, the Malaysia situation isn’t reflected throughout Asia to anything like the same degree. The crowds for Indonesian home games are significant and for the national team they dwarf anything that an EPL side will be able to draw. The domestic competitions in SE Asia are in an early development phase. Even here in Cambodia the locals can tell you the result of the Cambodia Premier League matches as readily as the can anything from the EPL. I think sometimes we follow the mantra of EPL domination a little too closely and sometimes forget that many fans can follow the domestic competition at the same time. Sure, the EPL is dominant in most of SE Asia and people will turn out to see the quality on show…… just like they will in Australia, or Japan.

Andyroo, it would be very hard to have such a competition that did not undermine the ACL, which in turn would mean undermining domestic competitions. The ACL provides a chance for clubs to shine and strut their stuff which in turn provides an incentive for domestic football associations and clubs to lift their game and promote development from the grass roots level. The beauty of the ACL is that it is that peak of a very large pyramid that reaches down to football being played in dusty village squares and mountain valleys throughout the continent.

An interesting aside is the significantly most popular foreign football shirt I see on kids in Cambodia ( admittedly not the wealthiest place on Earth so the countryside is hardly festooned with football paraphernalia). Is it Liverpool…no, Manu U…no, Barcelona…no, Bayern Münich….no. Its the Blue Samurai. Go figure.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:49:34 +0000

Get fans switching off Man Utd in favour of the Roar??!!

What’s that expression about selling sand to the Arabs??!!

By: Towser

Towser — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:45:21 +0000

“The Roar upon qualifying for the ACL buying Singapores best Player and then selling Roar Shirts and Broadcasting the games in Singapore sounds much more realistic though and something that could happen now.
Or grabbing Park from Man Utd in a couple of years, I know that would add a lot of bums to seats in Brisbane.”

AndyRoo your above statement is more likely one of the ways football will pan out in Asia. Also a way of increasing TV revenue maybe. Ie Singapore/ Thai TV companies.

Regarding countries like Singapore & Malaysias long term future in the greater scheme of Asian football. Well maybe a short term circus would create interest for a brief period,but then its back to bread un drippin instead of caviar. Better in my book to gradually get them to look up to Urawa Reds or The Roar(yes the Roar all you other club A-League fans) than ManU. Long road but better for football in the region in the future.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:38:14 +0000

Sorry Andy!!! but I did enjoy the reading the article!!

I will say that the Malaysian situation (where fans prefer the EPL in massive numbers over the local product), is something that is reflected throughout East Asia, and I actually agree that it could potentially hold back the ACL for decades.

By: AndyRoo

AndyRoo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:32:28 +0000

Ah Pip, your a dream crusher, but what you say makes sense.

Perhaps the leagues that now get 4 teams into the ACL (China, Japan, Sth Korea) and Australia wouldn’t nessesarily benefit and they should be left out. But then you would have to operate on a lot smaller budget. SE Asian Super League doesn’t sound as sexy but might be a way for these nations to compete but seems much harder to get up politically though.

By: nath

nath — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:30:55 +0000

I think the AFC should reintroduce a home and away knockout cup. Allowing the champions of the smaller nations who fail to qualify for the AFC Champions league to play against a higher caliber of teams. It could also allow teams to enter who place well in their domestic comps. For example the entrants in the comp could look like this.

In the East
A League 2nd, 3rd & 4th Place teams enter the comp 5th place team enters playoff
J League the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
Chinese SL the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
K League the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
The 2 teams that don’t qualify out of Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore & Vietnam = 2 teams qualify
Total 16 Teams

In the West
Iranian League the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
Saudi Arabia the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
Qatar the next 2 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 3rd team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
UAE the next 3 teams outside of the automatic ACL spots. 4th team outside of ACL spot enter playoff
Uzbekistan the next team outside of the automatic ACL spots
Bahrain, India, Syria and Turkmenistan would all get 1 playoff place each. = 2 teams qualify
Total 16 Teams

The winner would play at the ACL winners home ground in an Asian Super Cup match and would qualify for next years ACL’s qualifying rounds.

Buy allowing more teams to experience a home and away style comp this will increase the professionalism and interest across asia before any Super league would imo.
This would give another option to the sponsors who might not be able to afford the sponsorship cost of the ACL.

By: AndyRoo

AndyRoo — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:17:16 +0000

I have little doubt it wouldn’t work as above because there would be so many hurdles, but I think something like a super league would be the only way to engage the Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam and Singapore markets because there so far away from being able to produce a club team good enough to attract fans away from the EPL.
There are similar countries in the Middle East and Africa where they love European football.

I think Towser is spot on in how the existing ACL will develop, that is how I imagine it slowly occurring. My proposal is more a circus idea that burns bright for a short time each year. I guess the target market is euro snobs of which there are a lot in Sth East Asia.

The more I think about it the getting players for only 2 months seems harder to manage and makes you more inflexible in dates. Perhaps signing a core of 33 marquees and then using them as the drawcards for the circus which could go in 3 stages.
East asian stage with it’s 11 teams 2 month comp in east asia, then the circus moves to west asia where there are 11 teams in the Arab regions. Most of the players from the east asian comp go back to there local leagues but the marquees continue on.
Finally at the conclusion of the West Asian end of the circus you go to Africa.
So by the end of that you have got between 30 to 36 games out of your marquees and you could pay enough for guys like Recoba or Figo to justify this being there only football for the year.

There are Euro snobs in Nth America but I think the MLS and the Mexican League are far enough advanced that this concept wouldn’t appeal.

Very bold because too many nations and federations involved, but if MBH ever is looking for an idea to try and keep that money in the AFC he is free to take it.

The Roar upon qualifying for the ACL buying Singapores best Player and then selling Roar Shirts and Broadcasting the games in Singapore sounds much more realistic though and something that could happen now.
Or grabbing Park from Man Utd in a couple of years, I know that would add a lot of bums to seats in Brisbane.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:52:53 +0000

Mid
one could argue that something similar exists already (split between East and West Asia), with the two only coming together in the knock out stages.

But yeh – any number of variations on that theme are possible, and I agree that in terms of helping out minnows like Malaysia and Singapore, it might just mean more play offs amongst themselves to make the big time.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:50:37 +0000

Hmmm, it’s a novel idea – but I’m trying to work out why the ACL would never work.

I can see that the idea might be good for minnows like Malaysia and Singapore – but I can’t see why it would be the least bit attractive for countries like Japan (booming league, half a dozen top notch clubs) or even Australia.

In fact, let’s look at Australia. Let us suppose we plonk a team in to play out of Sydney (because it’s Australia’s largest city, etc).

What does that mean for the rest of the A-League?

Are any Melburnians going to give a damn about a team playing out of Sydney (I wouldn’t).

Do you end up with the double whammy that a team like Victory ends up losing out on fan and corporate interest, while at the same time the fans lost switch off this brand new super team (and maybe the game altogether)?

Sorry – I actually can’t see what good it would bring Australia.

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:44:30 +0000

Andy

Throught provoking article… I am not sure it would work as you see it…. but it does give rise to maybe regional play off’s for ACL places… say SEA, Middle East etc are each allocated 4 places and lets say we divide Asioa into 4 zones… the top four from each country could play off for the top 4 places in the ACL..

By: Towser

Towser — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:39:06 +0000

The European model works in Europe because as mentioned in this article it has evolved over a long period. No instant fix in Asia for the ACL it will evolve similar to Europe with big leagues & smaller leagues. The better players from nations like Singapore,Thailand,Malaysia will graduate to Japan,China,Korea ,Australia,maybe a middle East super league. Dont see many other nations capable of stepping up, simply because the majority of Asian nations will never have economies capable of supporting viable professional leagues.
Better for the rich Asians to invest in clubs in the region where they can get value for their dollar. Wouldnt mind one at the Roar. We could then compete with the “Big Clive Show” down the road. An International “marquee player in his twenties wouldnt go astray to complement Socceroo marquee Craig Moore. If these guys start throwing their money around at the big leagues throughout the region,the clubs will have better playing rosters,which will raise the standard of teams competing in the ACL anyway. Needs the AFC to persuade these Asian tycoons that their bread is buttered in Asia not Europe as far as football goes. Lets develop football in Asia(therefore Australia) slowly according to the dynamics that naturally exist in the region. Logistically the proposal above anyway would be a nightmare in recruitement given the crowded football calendar. Better to have top quality players permanently on a clubs playing roster anyway. MBH & his offsiders need to start bending the ears to direct cash our way rather than Europe’s.