Comments on: Is the Bundesliga a model for the A-League?

By: Michael C

Michael C — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:18:53 +0000

There’s a difference between a ‘club’ as a independantly run club such as an AFL member owned one – - but, when talking about privately owned franchises with a bunch of business folk – - and thus far, most those involved are rather more broad minded (sports wise) than soccer only – - – surely it risks discouraging involvement.

Really – - in that environment – - the ‘club’ is a fairly intangible notion (I guess, the NBL shows how much.).

By: Paul

Paul — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:00:11 +0000

I just did a wiki check on game attendances. I’d say things are looking up when you consider that only 2 AFL matches managed to pull more people than the Melb V Adel game yesterday. A bit of interesting reading actually. I checked all the AFL crowds from march onwards. A Footbal ( soccer ) match in melbourne is a far better investment than an AFL game in Brisbane. It’s hard to say if people are staying home more now with the likes of extra TV stations, movie downloads and what have you or the culture is changing slightly. The AFL model wev’e held in such high esteem for years, i’d say is not all that it’s cracked up to be. Maybe people have become more selective. It’s hard to say. And of course population comes into it. The more options people are given, the more thinly spread they become. With football being a world game, it’s getting easier to see it being the dominant Australian sport in the near future.

By: Tom F

Tom F — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:44:22 +0000

I believe that a general salary cap is needed to remain until at least the league has reached maturity. In the interim I believe that the marquee positions should be expanded to three- an attacking, midfield and defensive/goalie slot so that teams can build themselves a spine- these positions should be open to all marquee quality players (with the under 23 spots increased to 3 as well). We can see with a team like the Roar, with Craig Moore as marquee, that the lack of finishing from having not enough cash for a top-drawer striker after fitting both Danny Tiatto & Charlie Miller under the cap is telling. So you have a team with a great defensive record that creates a lot of chances but can’t score! Likewise with the Fury shooting their wad over Robbie Fowler, who is going to get the ball consistently too him with the sort of service he needs? Could he end up like Dwight Yorke- forced back into midfield to utilise superior technique and passing learned in Europe to the benefit of the team, but not for fans who buy season tickets to see them bang it in regularly.

Also in the case of the Roar, it has been great to watch young defenders like Luke DeVere come on under Moore’s tutelage, and having an experienced player of that quality in each third of the pitch would rapidly lift the overall quality of the squad. A few thoughts…

Off topic but related to the general discussion, this is what I think the ultimate structure should be for an Australian League system:
12- 16 clubs in the A-league with a similar sized Second Division with play-off promotions into the State Leagues to provide a pathway. Once the A-league has finished expanding, (FIFA recommend 16 teams as ideal- 30 rounds + easy divisibility for Cup draws etc), A second tier could be established, with a five year license guarantee for all franchises in each league (i.e. no promotion or relegation in this period), after which the system allows promotion/relegation. A condition of promotion is that the incoming club should demonstrate that they have the finances in place to meet the minimum requirements of the next level (especially for State League clubs vying to get into the Second tier)- failure to meet this within certain timeframe would mean that the place defaults to the next-best playoff position that can meet the requirements.

By: hugie

hugie — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:45:57 +0000

I find it hard to see how scrapping the salary cap will help the league.
The A-League will (most likely) never have the money in it that the J-League, K-League or Chinese Super League does. Those countries all have bigger populations hence more money.
Successful clubs already get rewarded (more fans, bigger sponsors always flock to winning clubs). Could Victory spend more money? Maybe. But the fact is we only lost Ryall and Theo who were first teamers last year and we’re still under the salary cap. Clubs have to become smarter about how they sell their club to players. If it’s only about wages some players will leave (i.e. Santalab) but if they want to win things, live in a fantastic country and be in front of the national team coach week in, week out then the A-League is the place to be.
Australia will always lose players o/s and sometimes they’ll be average ones like Santalab. But as A-League clubs get smarter and sell players for what they’re worth rather than what other clubs want to pay they’ll get money to spend on new players. Fury’s first preseason has been a strange one regarding players leaving but in the end Fowler for North and Williams for Santalab have been wins. If this Argentine is better than Felipe then in the end Fury have done ok. They’ll get better at working with player contracts as they get older.
One thing that would help the league is to have more marquee spots. A general marquee (like we have now), an Aussie marquee (to attract Socceroos back and blokes like Joel Porter etc), make an Asian foreign player spot (even a marquee Asian spot). Stuff like that will mean clubs with more money can spend a bit more and should help keep players in Australia too. If Newcastle could have a general marquee and an Aussie marquee they probably could lure Joel Griffiths back and keep Vignaroli. Plus another marquee spot means more room in the cap too.

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:27:11 +0000

I’ve often iterated that Asian clubs taking our players is a good thing. Through engaging with Asia we have an extra avenue available to us for professional development making football a more attractive option for young athletes. Aspects of the Bundesliga model would only enhance this attractiveness, rather than run as a counter to Asia. Hence it is primarily a supply side issue.

An interesting aside is the European visa issue. How many of our current players overseas are doing so primarily as a grandparent came from Europe and hence they can more easily work within the confines of the EU? This avenue for middling footballers will steadily reduce as our demographics change. This won’t make a difference for the Djite’s, Troisi’s, Spiranovic’s of this world who have talent to burn however for a great many others it will. As the East Asian region experiences further integration over the coming decades I’d expect it will become easier and easier for Australian’s to ply their trade in Asia.

By: StiflersMom

StiflersMom — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:46:08 +0000

Meh. its only Santalab, wish they took Robinson also. It’s a good idea to restrict the salary to a percentage of your turn over but I don’t want Melbourne wining the comp every year, I’d simply lose interest. Lets face it, no other city supports their teams like Melbourne so it would be a hard road for for the likes of regional placed teams, sure they might make a profit but you’d have to wait for that one special year when a certain group of nobody’s boldly challenged for the premier’s plate for the club to raise it’s turn over to pay them a bit more, but the bigger clubs would still have more money to swoop and steal any players of promise relegating the regional club to start from scratch and rebuild the playing stocks. An this system would not guarantee Asian clubs won’t continue taking our players.

On that, if the player has ambitions on national football, let them go to stronger leagues. Jesse, That’s the base of your argument for Lucas Neil to remain in England.

By: StiflersMom

StiflersMom — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:30:54 +0000

I see your logic Gaz but then we’d end up like the Scottish 12 or so teams but the same clubs fighting to win the comp each year.

By: danny

danny — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:54:23 +0000

seconded

By: Ben of Phnom Penh

Ben of Phnom Penh — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:19:08 +0000

well if you boys are ever in Phnom Penh we’ll meet for a cold beer at The Gym. Pip should be at home as the only other A-League member I know of here is a Victory man.

By: dude

dude — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:35:54 +0000

the idea sounds great. and the bundesliga is a fantastic model to work from. but untill the ffa loosens it’s grip on commercial arrangments, namely the overly healthy, almost complete percentage they take from merch sales, i fail to see the clubs being able to survive under this type of system. while other commercial sponsorships supply clubs with great amounts of revenue, merch sales are the sweetest nut of all for the vast majority of clubs. so untill a-league clubs can control and actually profit from sales of their own merch, from their own websites no less, without the ffa taking the lions share, most clubs wont be able to compete anywhere.

By: onside

onside — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:30:39 +0000

The clubs that financially fail are often those that overspend.
It’s more likely Newcastle,Adelaide,Brisbane, Fury ,and CCM
would survive by having to run a tight budget ,than the big
spenders that underacheive. There can only be one winner.

At this stage of the A leagues development,tired old big name
footballers can be ‘marque’ players.This will change.The time
will come when twenty year olds who can play every week
of the season ,injury free, provide the razzle dazzle.

I don’t have a firm opinion on the salary cap. I struggle with it.
I do know Mr Lowry sunk many millions into Sydney to keep it
afloat,and the owner of Newcastle has put quite a few million
dollars into his team. It’s a slog.

By: Kazama

Kazama — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:10:25 +0000

Erm, no…

And yes that is Voronin. Read the caption mate!

By: Koala Bear

Koala Bear — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:56:28 +0000

Midfielder,
yep, it was in the Daily Telegraph “Main Game” lift-out…

~~~~~~~~
KB

By: Koala Bear

Koala Bear — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:47:19 +0000

Jesse,
I just turned to your article on TWG and you have indeed put up a strong argument for loosening up the salary cap … I totally agree … the Arabs quest for ACL supremacy, participation, have raised the stakes … Isn’t it fantastic …?

~~~~~~~
KB

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:34:06 +0000

Naah – if you’re gonna be a drama queen – stay away!!!

By: Andrew

Andrew — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:16:41 +0000

We are not a buying league we are a selling league.
We should be aiming at producing better players for
A) Help the national team
B) Increase Revenue from the sale of players
C) Increase the standard of the league

Raising the cap beyond a certain point will just inflate prices same with you’re turnover idea. If we continuely produce better prices will raise with the quality.

By: Koala Bear

Koala Bear — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:13:52 +0000

Millster,
great to have you back lad…

~~~~~~~~~
KB

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:12:20 +0000

Milly

Come out of excile I am http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OQ2ezMpO0g

By: Tom

Tom — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:45:34 +0000

I’m just commenting to acknowledge the Coodabeens Champions reference.

Yeah. Love the Coodabeens.

By: Millster

Millster — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:40:19 +0000

Coming out from my self-imposed ROAR exile just for one minute to tell you Jesse that if I could grab you I’d kiss you right on your ugly scone for writing this article.

To me the only positive thing one can write about salary caps is that they are a necessary evil. And that means of course that I feel they should be used as minimilistically as possible given a code’s overall circumstances.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:38:14 +0000

Does anyone else think that the bloke in white in this picture looks a little bit like Roddy Vargas?

Is the bloke at the back Voronin??

By: Art Sapphire

Art Sapphire — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:58:16 +0000

very good point Clayton –

FYI – it costs 12 Euro ($22) to stand in the biggest Kop and watch Borussia Dortmund play.

There is another thing we can take from the germans. Standing areas behind the goals.

No wonder they have the highest average attendance in Europe.

By: Art Sapphire

Art Sapphire — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:52:33 +0000

Michael – I don’t think the FFA are trying to freeze out anyone. The last thing they want is an A-League club burning a financial hole for themselves by investing in another code.

By: clayton

clayton — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:52:02 +0000

oh yeah, the bundesliga is also home to fan friendly ticket prices (unlike the recent celtic / fulham games), safe standing areas and member owned clubs …

there is a lot we could take from the germans

By: AndyRoo

AndyRoo — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:50:52 +0000

Jesse’s latest entry on the SBS site is pretty interesting. Looking forward to what other people thoughts are when the discussion (petro dollars) pops up here.

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:43:12 +0000

…burn baby burn…

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:42:28 +0000

The closest I’ve come to experimenting is when, for an extremely short period, say about two months, I pretended to like disco music, and actually purchased Saturday Night Fever.

I did it for the chicks.

But when it transpired that I had to wear colourful plastic pants – I started to have second thoughts.

When it transpired that disco chicks were far more discerning than I had first thought – I gave it all up as a bad joke.

However, to this day, I don’t mind the song: “Disco Inferno”.

By: Midfielder

Midfielder — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:33:00 +0000

whiskeymac

Quote …”maybe he is just “experimenting””"”

You are on to something here..

By: Pippinu

Pippinu — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:24:19 +0000

Of course in the Australian sporting context, it’s not exactly novel, clubs of one sport dabbling in another – but by and large they have been unsuccessful.

We all know of the Carlton and Collingwood experiments, and despite promising starts (big crowds to their first respective games), they were both doomed to failure (essentially because a Carlton FC fan isn’t going to follow something called Collingwood and vice versa, which I’m sure we can all appreciate).

But another aussie rules club had a go at this sort of thing earlier than these two.

It was my own club, Footscray, in the very early 90s, as means of surviving and staying at their home ground, the Western Oval (now Whitten Oval) in West Footscray.

They experimented with four sports clubs operating out of the same venue. They purchased the baseball team, the Melbourne Monarchs (who actually won a premiership from the Western Oval), had an arrangement with Footscray JUST, and also, would you believe, ran a Rugby League team.

But it all flopped to such an extent that by 1996 they were on the verge of bankruptcy (for the 100th time in their 126 year history).

Because:
1. I have wonderful childhood memories of going to the footy at the Western Oval, but, that doesn’t disguise the fact that it was a crappy, old, windswept ground with zero customer appeal.
2. The Melbourne Monarchs winning the premiership was good news – only thing is that Australians don’t give a damn about baseball, and that was defnitely the case in and around Footscray.
3. Footscray JUST sounded promising, except that the Western Oval is a massive windswept ground and the soccer ground looked like a tiny postage stamp marked out on the oval. Not only that, but JUST were Serbian backed, and I’d say that in and around Footscray, there were as many Croatians and Macedonians as there were Serbians (at a time when the state of Yugoslavia was crumbling away under the yolk of civil wars and worse).
4. The Sunshine Raiders were clearly well ahead of their time, as I doubted there was a Victorian Rugby League at the time, and if there was, it would have been like a secrety society that no one knew anything about.

By: clayton

clayton — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:20:25 +0000

i`m hoping we can keep on developing players better than brendan santalab.

the more players get the chance to play in asia, the more professional footballers we have, the more opportunity we have for young players in the a-league.

maybe asian raids are not the problem, but a player development system that doesn`t turn out enough good players is the problem?