O’Neill has no plans for a national competition
Roar Guru By sheek, 30 Jul 2009 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
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- 2003 Rugby World Cup, ARC, John ONeill, NSWRU, Rugby Union, Socceroos, Sydney Premier Rugby
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Reading John O’Neill’s responses to questions from Roarers, it was obvious he didn’t please too many people. Frankly, I don’t think O’Neill can win any popularity votes or agreement from fans, no matter how wise his views.
Because many rugby fans don’t like O’Neill as a person, they are inclined to condemn anything he says, no matter how constructive. Especially his view that a national competition won’t happen anytime soon.
I recalled that O’Neill was dumped by forces within Australian rugby at the end of 2003, precisely because he was championing a national competition.
Sydney Premier Rugby power brokers, especially, weren’t going to have O’Neill strip them of their traditional power base in the game.
All this despite delivering a massive profit to the ARU from the 2003 Rugby World Cup, helping the NSWRU financially back into the black, and making Australian rugby the healthiest it had ever been.
O’Neill then went to the FFA and help set up the A-League, as well as the Socceroos entry into Asian football and qualification for the FIFA World Cup. I suspect what O’Neill achieved in football was along the lines he had in mind for rugby union.
Even someone like O’Neill must have been scarred by the manner of his sacking back in 2003.
He might never admit it, but since returning to the ARU and a game that had gone backwards in the four years of his absence, I’m sure he’s developed a bloody-minded attitude.
I reckon he said to himself, “Right, I’ll keep the game in the black and expand where I can (through Super 14), but damned if I’m going to get involved in the politics again of a national competition. And if the game suffers in the long run because of this, it won’t be my fault.”
The irony of the failed ARC back in 2007 is that, had O’Neill been in charge, he would have run a much tighter fiscal ship, allowing the new competition to only bleed small losses in its first few years, ather than the massive financial haemorrhaging that we witnessed.
O’Neill has probably vowed never to revisit the national competition while he remains ARU supremo. Sydney and Brisbane Premier Rugby power brokers have got what they want.
But at what cost to the future benefit of the game?
Rugby union won’t die anytime soon, but it won’t advance spectacularly much either without a national competition.
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July 30th 2009 @ 9:53am
vinay verma said | July 30th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Sheek- I may be out of my depth and comfort zone here but why can’t Australian Rugby have a sucessful club based national competition.? It seems to work in the UK and France. Do the French have more private entrpreneurs? Clubs like the Wasps and Munster in the UK appear successful. Are they ?
Randwick,Eastwood,Manly appear to have stron followings. Is club rugby not run professionally? Cant they get backers and communities behind them. I know there is a rugby culture in South Australia. Not sure about Melbourne and Perth.
These are just ramblings but with enough resolve anything is possible.
July 30th 2009 @ 10:28am
allblackfan said | July 30th 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Isn’t John O’Neill already on record as saying that he will not consider a national competition without NZ involvement? When plans were being drawn up for the Plan B option for Super rugby (trans-Tasman), O’Neill went on record as saying that broadcasters were interested in a trans-tasman comp?
Vinay, a club comp won’t work here. You simply don’t have thenumbers for it. The purpose of a middle tier competition is to filter out those players incapable of making the next step up. You can have someone who’s a really good club player but maybe no good at the provincial level.
July 30th 2009 @ 10:32am
sheek said | July 30th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Vinay,
I ask the same question….. again & again & again.
I am both amazed & dismayed that any passionate Australian rugby union fan might find it acceptable we can only produce 4 or 5 fully professional teams/franchises.
Club rugby is semi-professional, & that’s stretching it. More like match payments, I think. The one-season ARC (2007) was semi-professional (8 teams). Cut because it bled too much money.
The super competition has little opportunity for progression of more professional domestic teams. In the future, expansion will come from places/countries like Japan, Canada, USA, Argentina & the Pacific islands.
Potential candidates for national comp – Sydney (South-East), Sydney (Greater West), Sydney (North Shore West), Sydney (North Shore East), Brisbane (North-West), Brisbane (South-East), Canberra, Perth, Melbourne, Gold Coast, Central Coast, Newcastle, Adelaide, North Qld, Sunshine Coast, Illawarra.
Another question is whether you would cherry-pick certain Sydney/Brisbane clubs for promotion to national comp. For example, Randwick, Parramatta, Eastwood, Manly, Gordon, Brisbane Brothers, Brisbane GPS, etc.
Your final sentence is the crux. Lack of resolve & complacency appear to be the problems. Of course, finances will always be a problem….. but there’s always a way if you have the resolve.
July 30th 2009 @ 12:18pm
vinay verma said | July 30th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Whats to stop a successful club like Randwick or Brothers talking to a wealthy French or UK club with a view to taking equity and then developing to the next step of finding local backers. If you can get 10-12 Australian clubs getting serious I am sure they could tie up with French,UK,Japanese and South African clubs. It is all about identifying how the overseas club will benefit financially in the long term. Japanese and French clubs could see this as a oppurtunity to increase sales of goods to australia.
Administrators in all codes need to think out of the box instead of trying to guard their patch.
July 30th 2009 @ 12:31pm
sheek said | July 30th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Vinay,
I wish I had the answers, I really do!
July 30th 2009 @ 10:39am
sheek said | July 30th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
allblackfan,
There was a lot of speculation on the Roar about a trans-Tasman (plan B) rugby comp, but I don’t recall O’Neill himself saying much about this, but he may well have. It’s still an option with both countries likely to benefit in different ways.
I disagree we (Australia) can’t have a national club comp. On the contrary, it’s essential. Yes, the talent would be spread thin initially, but you always have to start somewhere.
Every major sport in every leading country has its national team underpinned by a national domestic comp.
The longer you wait to take the first step, the longer it will take you to begin your journey!
July 30th 2009 @ 10:42am
Worlds Biggest said | July 30th 2009 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Like him or not JON get’s things done. How happy was everyone back in 2007 when he was reappointed to CEO after the disasterous Gary Flowers era. JON is still cleaning up the mess from that regime. ARU Board Members were never held accountable for allowing the code to fall well behind. JON is not endorsing a Nat Club Comp because there isn’t the money.
I liked the ARC concept ( only tick for Flowers here ) and think a similar model can work in the future however who is going to fund it. I disagree with Allblackfan, I think this can work.
July 30th 2009 @ 11:00am
Hammer said | July 30th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
But wasn’t the reason O’Neill got the backing to get back into the ARU a deal done the NSW clubs to desolve the ARC ?? … so he’s hardly going to be trumpeting a return of that competition ….
anyone who has some time on Sat arvo’s should sit down and watch the ABC coverage of the “premier” NSW club competition … and then later flick onto the Curry Cup and NPC games which begins this weekend … and then you’ll realise why Aust rugby really needs to bridge the gap with national semi-pro competition – the Shute Shield is truely club level rugby … great to be able to watch your team on telly – but anyone truly believing these guys could go straight into a S14 team or a Wallaby squad are kidding themselves …
July 30th 2009 @ 10:19pm
Justin said | July 30th 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Well Hammer they have and they do but I agree its a slow game compared to the pro levels…
July 30th 2009 @ 11:20am
Worlds Biggest said | July 30th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
I think everyone realises and wants another tiered competition to bridge the gap between Club and Super Level. The problem is money and a lack of it. This is why JON wants privatisation to filter into Super Rugby which may in turn filter down to the next level being a National Comp to be established.
July 30th 2009 @ 6:01pm
AndyS said | July 30th 2009 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
There is no way money will filter down from a private equity body to another, separate club – at best it would be reinvested into the Super club.
July 30th 2009 @ 12:21pm
Tarpo said | July 30th 2009 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
WB,
I don’t think it is just money that is stopping the 3rd tier, it could be run much more economically to start with.
It as Sheek points out, the political obstacles that are appearing insurmountable.
It could start at the end of Super Rugby, running in tandem with Tri Nations. Club rugby would run in tandem with Super rugby, & ideally would would finish the same time as Super rugby, thus all non wallaby Super players would be available for th new “ARC”.
If each Super squad has approx 30 players x 5 ==150. minus 30 Wallabies = 120 Super players, minus a few season ending injuries & marquee players. Divide these 120 Super players by 8 teams = a starting lineup 15 super players in each team. Another 15 x 8 =120 of the best club players & it should be a pretty decent standard.
As the Super players are already earning their income, they would not be earning much more for playing in the national comp than they would have if they played club rugby.
The club players would be earning the same as club rugby, very little. Both groups want & need more high level rugby & an additional opportunity to showcase their skills.
The problem of course is club rugby would only see Super players when the Super competition is suspended for the June internationals & the Wallabies that didn’t make the 22 for same.
Without goodwill from the clubs, that effectively sees them shuffled down the foodchain it is polictically (almost) impossible.
People all over the world in all societies have consistently found it difficult to vote for their own demise.
An easy solution remains elusive.
I might add that based on what we see in Super rugby squads at the moment we would probably see a couple of squads of 30 Super players with the balance spread over the other 6 teams!
July 30th 2009 @ 12:38pm
sheek said | July 30th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Much truth in what you say.
What is sometimes forgotten is that the RL NSW Cup, soccer state league & AFL VFL/VFA are third tier comps, which is precisely where Sydney & Brisbane PR would sit. It’s by no means a bad thing. On the other hand, Sydney & Brisbane PR clubs haven’t shown anything exceptional over 100 years to expect/demand more.
And of course, I’m not suggesting the demise of Sydney & Brisbane PR clubs, they still have a vital function to perform. It’s just not at the head of the table!
Your numbers are about right, I think. Initially, I was thinking 120 fully professional players, or a starting XV for each of 8 national comp sides. The remaining 18 or so squad members per side would initially have to be semi-professional.
The ARU, like CA, would further bump up the salaries of an elite squad of 40 Wallabies per year.
July 30th 2009 @ 6:04pm
AndyS said | July 30th 2009 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
A little bit thinner than that – one would hope that the Australia A team will make a reappearance at some point…
July 30th 2009 @ 12:52pm
cookie said | July 30th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
I suspect that a national competition would be the demise of the S15 at least in it’s current setup.
There is only room for 1 comp from a media point of view.
AFL, NRL have tribal followings rugby has some decent grass roots but no year round comp with good media coverage and a finals series to follow.
We have a fragmented bit’s and pieces comp which works in one sense but alienates many.
A 16 team truly national comp with a comprehensive finals series would be great but too hard to get running considering money and politics.
I find it pretty dumb that we can’t see any of our top players for 3/4 weeks! And only then they are playing at what 3 am or something stupid….No wonder we can’t get a decent national following.
July 30th 2009 @ 6:10pm
AndyS said | July 30th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
Yet somehow the equivalent competitions are followed, at least to some extent, elsewhere. I definitely agree with your last statement though – we are at the stage of the season where we can see one professional match at the weekend, on TV other than the luck few that get one locally, and our team is not even playing on a number of the weekends. If there were a national comp, any home game here wouldn’t have much competition.
July 31st 2009 @ 9:58am
sheek said | July 31st 2009 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Cookie,
I for one wouldn’t miss the S14/15. But it not that bad, I would suggest the structure of the S14 (or whatever) merely change from being the H&A season comp, to a KNo style comp, & obviously much shorter duration.
In other words, S15, etc becomes like a Heineken Cup. This then allows national comp to take centre stage, with top domestic teams qualifying for S14, etc.
With national comp, let’s start small before going big. 8 teams would be the optimal starting point, building eventually to 12 & in the very long run, 16 teams.
July 30th 2009 @ 1:17pm
Tarpo said | July 30th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Cookie, you are right, it is ridiculous that we have such a stop start season. This why IF you have an national comp it must start when Super rugby finishes, it is hardly going to impinge too heavily on the Tri Nations, there is only 3 games played in Aust anyway.
From a Media perspective there is only one competition going at any one time (except Tri Nations), it seems to work ok in NZ & SA timing wise.
I know we have some differnt dynamics here, but with these additional TV channels coming online they need programming & they can’t all be showing the latest bizarre reality show. There is no better reality TV than sport played well.