By Mike Tuckerman
August 6th 2009 @ 12:22am
A World Cup in China? Forget it!
Australia's Harry Kewell heads the ball during their World Cup qualifier match Against China at ANZ Stadium, Sydney, Sunday, June 22, 2008. AAP Image/Dean Lewins
The ugly scenes that marred Australia’s defeat to China in the AFC U-19’s Women’s Championship were not unique. But they may have sounded the death knell for any future Chinese World Cup bid.
For too long now Chinese football has been marred by violence on and off the pitch.
Japan’s defeat of China in the Asian Cup final of 2004 sparked riots outside the Beijing Worker’s Stadium.
In 2007, an innocuous friendly hosted by English club Queens Park Rangers was abandoned by referee Dermot Gallagher after an all-in brawl left Chinese defender Zheng Tao with a broken jaw.
The melee apparently started after a Chinese player was alleged to have kicked a stricken QPR player lying prostrate on the ground.
The Chinese ended their 2008 Beijing Olympics campaign in disgrace after a 2-0 defeat to Belgium saw them finish that group-stage game with just nine men.
Defender Tan Wangsong was sent off for kicking Sebastien Pocognoli in the abdomen, before former Charlton Athletic star Zheng Zhi earned his marching orders for elbowing Jan Vertonghen in the stomach.
And the Chinese Super League has long been renowned as one of the most physical competitions in world football, with multi-game suspensions routinely handed down for violent behaviour.
What’s the source of all this on-field tension?
Call me an old-school social analyst, but I bet a jittery Communist regime hell-bent on labelling the west an “enemy” when it suits does little for China’s siege mentality.
Where does that leave any future Chinese World Cup bid?
Up the creek if you’re to believe FIFA supremo Sepp Blatter, who just last week told reporters in the United States that he would like to see the Americans host either the 2018 or 2022 finals.
That makes hosting another World Cup finals in a newly developing market unlikely in the near future.
But it also makes a trip to the People’s Republic an uncomfortable experience – as Australian U-19’s Women’s coach Alen Stajcic just discovered.
Stajcic should try taking a Japanese team to China.
From the now defunct A3 Champions Cup to the totally irrelevent East Asian Football Championship, Japanese teams are so vociferously booed in China that it’s a wonder any Japanese teams bother to turn up in the first place.
It makes a mockey of Sepp Blatter’s righteous indignation over the jeering of national anthems and the use of football matches for political point-scoring.
And verbal abuse is the least of it.
The lobbing of projectiles such as the water bottles that rained down on the Young Matildas is becoming a routine occurence in China.
The People’s Republic might be considered a sleeping giant in world football, but even a population of more than 1.3 billion does not guarantee “the Middle Kingdom” the right to host the world’s most popular sporting event.
That’s to say nothing of the fact that Chinese teams again failed en masse in this season’s Asian Champions League.
Not a single Chinese team reached the final sixteen of the tournament, despite the fact that four of them took part in the group stage.
None of this bodes well for China’s interest in eventually hosting a World Cup, with any bids looking dead in the water as it is
But the constant bad behaviour on Chinese football pitches reflects poorly on Hu Jintao’s government.
So too does the corruption seemingly endemic in Chinese football, where allegations of paid-off referees and match-rigging scandals continue to bubble under the surface of China’s domestic game.
It’s the constant on-field violence that worries me, however, with the safety of travelling teams in question every time they take to the pitch in the world’s most populous nation.
Hardly an advertisement for the world game or China’s imaginary “Socialist Paradise,” and not the sort of place that FIFA should be considering hosting a World Cup.
Yet recent history suggests that FIFA favours political expendiency over fan comfort and commercial interests.
They should think long and hard about hosting major events in China though, where violence on and off the pitch continues to overshadow the exploits of Chinese players.
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Joe said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:34am | Report comment
China haven’t made a World Cup bid. It can’t be dead if it was never alive.
davido said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:53am | Report comment
If they havent they will.
Glad to see someone point out the ugly side of chinese sport.
Anyone see the ref get chased around the pitch the other day? Hilarious.
Mike Tuckerman said | August 6th 2009 @ 5:44am | Report comment
Joe – gremlins in the machine on that one! My brain meant any future World Cup bids but my fingers typed “current.”
davido – it’s this ugly side of the sport that seems to make it difficult for the Chinese to make any headway in football. Certainly the current Chinese Super League has been an improvement on recent years, but on-field violence and poor spectator behaviour makes it difficult to countenance too many meaningful games being played in the Middle Kingdom. Particularly those involving fellow Asian teams.
albatross said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Not to mention the irregularities associated with gambling and organised crime.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Poor Australians. I hope this article can make them feel more comfortable. None of the ugly sides of Chinese football mentioned here ease the fact that the fight was started by the Matildas, and their loss is contributed, in large, by their poor performance in the game. The comments on “Hu Jintao’s government” or ““Socialist Paradise” is a little funny as well.
As far as I know, most Chinese fans don’t think World Cup should be hosted in China in the near future, not until the Chinese team can compete. They are far from that level yet. But Australians did great job to show what frustration is, from players, coach, commentators, and regular fans. Take it easy, guys, it is just a game, and they are just young girls.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Indy bull, unfortunately CCTV haven’t released all the vision of what happened but from accounts I have heard and the pictures I have managed too see it looks like the Chinese injured an australian player and were crowded around her…. it takes two to tango and solely blaming the matlidas seems wrong to me. What is your spin on the crowds behavior then?
Poor Performance in the game? 2 penalties turned down and one moved to a free kick outside of the box. I think you mean poor performance by the referee. But considering the hostile nature of the crowd then the referee was probably acting for their own saftey.
I think you demonstrate why China will never be a world power at football, there is no desire to improve. The result and status no matter how it is achieved is all that important.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
It is always an easy thing to blame the other side when you lose a game. The opponent, the referee (who is not a Chinese), and the crowd. It becomes even better when the game is actually hosted in a “Communist” country, or in a country the sport (football) is not really good. To be honest, this kind of environment does more harm than good to the young Australian girls that played hard in the game.
Believe it or not, I agree with you on most of the point. 1. I won’t blame Australian girls, or Chinese girls. Let it go, they are just young kids, a little emotional, but will be experienced in the future. 2. The behavior of the crowd is unacceptable. 3. Chinese football environment is really bad, and needs to be turned around, totally upside down.
Given all these said, Australian coach behaved really funny, so are most of the people on this forum. If cursing Chinese football future makes you happy and satisfied, go ahead to do it. See whether anyone cares. Go to a Chinese forum if you can read Chinese, half (at least) of people actually criticize Chinese team for their conservative and acting behavior towards the end.
Acting diving of the leading party, prejudiced referee, hostile crowd, we see it everywhere in the world, it is all part of the game. If you cannot handle it, go to learn! Nobody will babysit you.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
It is always an easy thing to blame the other side when you lose a game. The opponent, the referee (who is not a Chinese), and the crowd. It becomes even better when the game is actually hosted in a “Communist” country, or in a country the sport (football) is not really good. To be honest, this kind of environment does more harm than good to the young Australian girls that played hard in the game.
Believe it or not, I agree with you on most of the point. 1. I won’t blame Australian girls, or Chinese girls. Let it go, they are just young kids, a little emotional, but will be experienced in the future. 2. The behavior of the crowd is unacceptable. 3. Chinese football environment is really bad, and needs to be turned around, totally upside down.
Given all these said, Australian coach behaved really funny, so are most of the people on this forum. If cursing Chinese football future makes you happy and satisfied, go ahead to do it. See whether anyone cares. Go to a Chinese forum if you can read Chinese, half (at least) of people actually criticize Chinese team for their conservative and acting behavior towards the end.
Acting diving of the leading party, prejudiced referee, hostile crowd, we see it everywhere in the world, it is all part of the game. If you cannot handle it, go to learn! Nobody will babysit you.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
You don’t see it everywhere that is the point. Sure if you go to Argentina then you can feel the crowd and the referee isn’t going to give the away team any 50/50 decisions but this is such blatant pandering to the hosts that is makes the AFC seem unprofessional.
If Manchester united play Barcelona in Spain in the Champions League there may be some refereeing mistakes but not like this. If the referee moved a foul from inside the box to outside the box then he would never referee again. The officials don’t just say tough bikies, they admit there mistake and try to improve. In China it’s a case of “lets not release the footage of the last 10 minutes and pretend nothing happened” because we got the win. If this happened in Australia to the Chinese girls we would be embarrassed and we wouldn’t be celebrating the victory.
I don’t want too see Asian football stuck in this culture of cover up and happy to accept poor refereeing and crowd behaviour. Football will never reach it’s potential that way, Australia’s football future is linked to China. If China did well and won the game fairly we would all want them to do well in the World Cup and get more spots for Asia. If what happened between Beijing and Tianjin was done in the ACL it would damage the competitions reputation with sponsors and media companies. That competition is important to Australia’s future.
I didn’t curse Chinese football, I cursed the attitude you have in that what happened was all ok and we should just get used to it. There is a big difference between a hostile atmosphere and actual projectiles being thrown. That’s why I am not happy because I don’t want this to be the case in 20 years time. I don’t want China to only be able to win at home because the ref is scared and then go to the world cup and get embarrassed because their diving tricks and trying to intimidate the referee don’t work at that level. I don’t want too see 15 year old girls getting bottles thrown at them or officials (from both sides I guess, although I have only seen the picture of the Chinese one) grabbing young girls.
Instead you just blame Australia…yet scenes like this aren’t happening in the A League.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
In regards to the article sadly I don’t think any of these incident would hurt Chinas future bid.
The $$ would be so big that they would over look all but the worst indescretions. I doubt FIFA wil even investigate this match properly even though world cup qualification was at stake. And perhaps an event like the wrld cup could be a positive instrument of change.
China will still be getting 4 spots in the AFC champions league.
Pippinu said | August 6th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
The big news?
Sepp wanting the US fro 2018 or 2022 (which means the latter most likely).
Not good news for Australia.
albe said | August 6th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
he does say positive things to every bidding country he meets with. And if u read the exact quotes, they were from the US federation chief not Blatter. (He was relaying Blatter’s supposed words to the media.)
Hosting a World Cup that the whole world watches will be a big ask for Australia though. No doubt about that. But then they said Beijing were a shoe-in for the 2000 olympics.
davido said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
It is the same as the olympics scam. They go round to every potential host saying youre the one, youre great etc.
It is just a big junket scam to weasel out bucket loads of money from gullible cities desperate to be an olympic city.
MVDave said | August 6th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Pip
The USA are our biggest rivals for 2022 (with England or Spain 2018 IMO). The Obama effect plus Team USA’s showing at Confeds Cup and the amazing attendances for the recent World Series of football and the friendlies of Galaxy and Seattle have certainly helped their cause recently…over 93,000 for Galaxy v Barcelona, 82,000 Chelski v Inter Milan, 72,000 Chelski v Milan, 80,0000 USA v Mehico, 66,000 Seattle v Chelski and 68,000 Seattle v Barcelona are some examples with games spread right across the country drawing capacity crowds. The fact that USA has it as recently as 1994 hopefully will work against them.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
I just thought that was the Pele effect. i.e. you meet with the Australian Prime Minister and say the world cup would be great in Australia. Then you get to meet Barrack Obama and say an American World Cup would be fantastic…. then you vote for England.
Tom said | August 6th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
MVDave is right. There’s a disturbing amount of momentum building around US football at the moment. The timing couldn’t really be worse for Australia.
As for China, Mike is absolutely right. No one is going to trust the football federation in China to do anything at the moment.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment
All the Chinese would agree with this. Even the federation in China bid for it, they won’t get support from Chinese fans. They don’t want to affect the quality of the game. Many Chinese fans said: The only way I support the bid is to throw away the rule that the host (China) must attend the final tournament.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Indybull
I think you don’t understand who we are upset with. In China I don’t think the players are the problem. There are a lot of talented players but the administration is bad.
The players behavior is a product of how the assosiation is run. They have to treat all Chinese equally
If they punished players for diving at the CSL level you wouldn’t see it very often at the National Team level. If they made sure the referees were clean from corruption the fans would be much less frustrated and if they demoted the clubs that can’t control their fans the problem of bad fan behavior would soon go away.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
There is some truth to that, AndyRoo, however there is also a broader issue in relation to the pressures on professional athletes and clubs that stems from a fan and media base that plays very little amateur sport.
What make it a Chinese problem is the fact that the same issues are not faced by any of its neighbours to anything close to the same degree. Even Vietnam, which experiences occasional crowd antics, does not experience the same problems as often and certainly not on the pitch.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
I agree with this point – the administration is bad, and should be changed. I don’t understand why we seem so different. I want to make my point clear. Chinese football environment is bad, and it is not OK.
But I don’t understand why Australian are interested in this, and I don’t agree that refs made mistake because they are scared. In addition to the pictures you see, I also see one picture with a Chinese player laying on the ground (after the brawl). Not trying to find any excuse for the Chinese, and I cannot, but the story always has both sides.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
We are interested because it would be nice if it doesn’t happen again.
It doesn’t sound like the Chinese FA are going to do anything so I would asume it will keep happening, hence why the author wrote an article saying what he says. This must be a cultuaral difference because we believe in free press and if people do not voice their displeasure and just ignore issues then nothing changes.
In Rugby League the Bulldogs had a lot of crowd problems, the media and well behaved fans weren’t happy, the sponsers weren’t happy and the club was forced to clean up it’s act. The problem was tackled rather than ignored.
If this happened in Austarlia there would have more than one article about it.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
To AndyRoo
If you read Chinese, go to find out how many Chinese articles criticize the Chinese FA, the Chinese U19 team, the refs, and the Wuhan crowds. The incompetence of Chinese FA has significantly damaged the development of this sport in China in the last 20 years. These stem from the fans, the media, and the sponsors. Chinese knows it, and will change in the years to come (hopefully not too far).
The surprising fact is that how little the FREE Australian media talk about the technical side of this (Australian) team and how they should improve in the future. Although it is convenient to blame the “scared” referee and hostile Chinese environment, it is rather pathetic. I still cannot make the link between “Australian lost game” and “the crowds are not friendly”. The refs are chosen by the Asian FA, not Chinese one, although neither of them are great.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Huh…is this your first week on this site? Have you never watched SBS before?
There has been a lot of talk and criticism of the Socceroos tactics and style despite the fact we qualified for the World Cup.
What about all the recent talk about introducing 4-3-3 to all youth levels it’s all based on improving. I think if you look through the articles here and on theworldgame.com.au you will find plenty of critisim of Australia.
You were the person who brought up performance, the article didn’t talk about the Matildas deserving to win at all, it didn’t even talk about the loss. You were the first to mention poor performance of either team in a matter not regarding behaviour.
So I responded, I was just defending the players against your critisism, the score ended 2-1 away from home, the performance could be improved but with a different referee they could have had a different result. No one blamed anyone outside of the team for the result in the Japanese game.
China Daily doesn’t even mention the crowd throwing projectiles.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Problem solved. Change the referee next time.
Talking about the behavior, several points you might not see from the free media:
1. One Australian player said “Fxxk” to a little kid (less than 10 years old) when he mistakenly threw ball into the field (two kids didn’t coordinate well).
2. Young Australian girls damaged many equipments in the locker room after the game.
3. The Australian coach throw a bottle of water onto the ground in the after-game press conference, and almost hit one reporter.
I have to say that none of these behavior (Australian) matches and justifies what the crowds did after the game. And I understand the frustration why they did that. I just want to throw in the point that every story has two sides.
The result of the game could be different if the referee made better judgment, but the refs are appointed by the AFC, not the Chinese FA (I really don’t think they are that scared).
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Why wont CCTV release the footage of the match if there is nothing to hide?
The result of the game is not so important here, but don’t you think it is rude to call Australia’s performance poor considering the circumstances and performance of the referee?
We weren’t asking for the result to change. Mike is pointing out there are amny examples of violent bahavior in Chinese football. This is not something ususally covered in Australia.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
How could I know? I am not running CCTV. I want to see it as well. BTW: is the releasing of footage controlled by CCTV? I thought AFC has a take on it. But I have no knowledge of the rules.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
We can argue how good or bad Australian team performed, but I don’t consider it rude to express my opinion.
Referee might be a factor (althogh they are not appointed by Chinese FA), but I don’t see how the crowds affact the Australian players performace. Keep in mind that the bad crowd behavior happened after the brawl between two teams, when the game has already ended.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
The article wans’t about the result of the match but you come in saying Australia’s performance was poor.
Just as there are bad losers there are bad winners, suggesting Australia played poor when the referee was very bad is something I wouldn’t do if the situation was reversed.
If Australia won and got lucky with refereeing decisions I wouldn’t call the opponents poor, I can’t remember ever calling any of Australia’s opponents poor.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
I thought you are interested in hearing what people from other angles think.
Nevertheless, I defend your rights to disagree.
AndyRoo said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
I am glad you contributed. It’s good to hear different perspectives, much more interesting than 30 posts just saying “I agree”.
I might disagree with you but that isn’t a personal slight on you. I am just pointing out why you will get defensive responces in that instance.
We should stay on topic to what the article is about, the on field violence and crowd trouble, but I think most has allready been said.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Agree, and shake hands! Need to go to bed, too late in the States.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | August 6th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Tianjin’s antics the other day against Beijing wouldn’t have assisted the image at all. Two players suspended for two and three years respectively and another for life after attacking the referee and the team thrown out of the cup. Not good at all and moreover disturbingly repetitious at both club and country level.
Midfielder said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:58am | Report comment
I think China (the government) has a lot to learn about international sport … Maybe the idea of 10 cities and say anothe 10 training centres is a tad hard to control….
Mike Tuckerman said | August 6th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Some excellent points made in here guys.
IndyBull – as others (and indeed myself) have pointed out, the incident with the Young Matildas was just one of several that involved Chinese crowds turning against opposition teams.
Pip – Sepp Blatter seems to be the kind of guy who does the round saying what each local federation wants to hear before jetting off to repeat the same mantra in the next locale. That said though, his suggestion that he’d like to see the U.S. host another World Cup is a crippling blow for an Australian bid.
Tom – obviously the Chinese FA is as guilty as anyone when it comes to some of the problems that seem unique to the Chinese game. A clean up from the top might help, but that’ll probably be a long time in coming.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Nice summary, but I don’t agree that the instance is unique to Chinese FA. Remember the brawl between Pacers and Piston fans? Not to say the football hooligans in Europe. Again, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the Wuhan fans’ behavior is OK, and I agree that Chinese FA is one of the worst in the world.
For the Young Matildas, they should and will move on. Keep blaming Chinese FA doesn’t do much good.
Mushi said | August 6th 2009 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Do we really think a brawl in a female match is going to stop China winning a world cup bid if they go for it?
China is every expansion focused sports body’s darling. Football is one of the most money focused sports, let alone their desire to be the global number one code (as in first choice on each contient).
If the Olympics can be awarded despite political opposition and human rights concerns do you really think a football world cup, in a far more chian tolerant climate, wouldn’t get through?
Mike Tuckerman said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Mushi – of course not, but the constant threat of violence erupting at fixtures taking place in China is a real and growing problem.
IndyBull said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
I thought they did OK in the Olympics, although there is a lot of room to improve.
Mushi said | August 6th 2009 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
Still don’t think it will stop them if they decide they want to hsot the world cup.
David V. said | August 6th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
China’s real problem, as I’ve noted in my recent piece, is that its standing within Asian football has diminished badly in the last five years.
IndyBull is right. You can go to through Chinese media, electronic or not, and find how scathingly critical Chinese football supporters are of their national teams and the FA. The state media provides a forum for debate on it like no other subject. It’s one of the beautiful things about football.
Mushi- FIFA are unlikely to be impressed by the state of anything related to football in China. Which frankly has more influence on awarding World Cups than political considerations.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | August 6th 2009 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Good point David, the football is one of those few areas of Chinese public life that is open to public scrutiny and subject to enthusiastic debate.
China’s real problem isn’t its diminished standing. This is the symptom.
The Bear said | August 6th 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Matlidas went all that way, time and geography, emotionally and competitively for a ineptly refereed game? That is the real travesty, here. It casts a shadow over FIFA first and foremost. Good lesson for the FFA – go to China prepared.
IndyBull said | August 7th 2009 @ 4:39am | Report comment
Finally a fair treatment for all the parties involved. http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/5783284/australia-china-fined-womens-brawl
Mike Tuckerman said | August 10th 2009 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
A pertinent take on the fracas from Jesse Fink over at Half Time Orange.
http://www.theworldgame.com.au/young-matildas-drag-aussie-football-back-40-years-221987
And while I think the issue of on and off-field violence is a problematic one in Chinese football, I thought Tom Sermanni’s verbal attack on the AFC was indicative of this insular attitude held by some that sees Australia as victims of (or victimised by) playing in Asia rather than us being willing and co-operative participants.
Chris said | August 12th 2009 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Mike when an Australian player tries to shake the hand of the Chinese captain and gets kicked in the knee for her troubles how is this our players fault?