The issue of promotion and relegation, again
By Pippinu, 11 Aug 2009 Pippinu is a Roar Guru
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- A-League, FFA, football, Joel Griffiths, salary cap
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Central Coast Mariners players (L to R) Tom Pendeljak, Matthew Simon and John Hutchinson sit dejected after loosing 0-1 to the Newcastle Jets in the A-League Grand Final in Sydney on Saturday, Feb. 24, 2008. AAP Image/Paul Miller
I recently read that Adam Griffiths had just signed with a Saudi club. An attraction for him was the fact that the side had finished fourth last season and had qualified for the ACL.
Naturally, this got me thinking about our prospects of having four teams qualifying for the ACL, which in turn, inevitably led me to mulling over the question of promotion and relegation.
Now, I know this topic comes up regularly on many forums, so I thought I would use this article to synthesise some of the better ideas I have come across in the blogosphere (including my own, of course).
Assumptions:
1. Promotion and relegation is going to be tough in the Australian context – don’t pay attention to anyone who thinks otherwise. I’m not saying impossible, I’m just saying it will be extremely difficult.
2. The next TV deal will result in an approximate doubling of TV rights from where we are presently (realistic, but by no means a given).
3. The current trend of plenty of bidders for licenses will continue into the foreseeable future, meaning that the A-League could breach 16 teams in four or five years.
Each assumption in turn leads to an important plank of how we get to a promotion and relegation system.
Firstly, why will it be difficult?
Consider what every single club CEO has ever said about the prospects for their club. I will bet you that at some stage or another, they have said something along the following lines: if we can get some success on the field, our future looks bright, and so on.
Does anyone see the obvious paradox in these sorts of statements?
Clearly, in a very young league, with most clubs still struggling to establish themselves, I can tell you right now that if relegation was introduced tomorrow, the first team to be relegated would be as good as dead in the water in terms of its long term viability.
This leads us to the second assumption.
It seems to me that the commercial reality is that even with a doubling of TV rights in a few years time we can choose to either:
a. double salaries; or
b. introduce a second tier,
But we can’t do both. Why?
Because a promotion and relegation system can only work in the Australian context if the second tier is only marginally below the first tier in terms of quality and consequently, access to cash flow.
In other words, the second tier salary cap would need to be around two-thirds of the first tier salary cap, and this immediately tells us that average salaries cannot increase in the same proportion as TV rights because the 2nd tier will need to be subsidised from those TV rights to maintain a relatively high standard (i.e. a standard higher than would otherwise exist if there was no cross-subsidisation).
Now the third assumption: what was the point of mentioning ongoing growth that would take us beyond 16 clubs? To start a comp from scratch with 8, 10 or whatever number of clubs is actually a big ask at the best of times.
For this reason it has occurred to me that if we can achieve steady growth to 16 teams, in that final year where we accept the last two clubs to make up the 16 teams, the FFA would proclaim the commencement of a second tier the following season, on the understanding that the two bottom teams of the current season would be relegated, to be joined by six new teams to form the new second tier.
We would then end up with 14 teams in the A-League, and 8 teams in the First Division (for argument’s sake).
There’s nothing magical about these numbers except to state that a jump in six teams in the one year is about the very tallest order we should be aiming for – anything higher is just too difficult in terms of logistics, in other words, it’s a realistic transition plan.
But make no mistake, even with all of the above occurring (more or less), the second tier would present a major challenge for years to come. I would predict a revolving door of clubs at the bottom of that second tier continuing for decades, maybe forever.
Would we end up with a permanent top three or four clubs as is to be found in the rest of the World?
Not while there’s a salary cap we won’t.
On the contrary, I would envisage a solid big 10 (or so) teams, with three or four at the bottom of the first tier in a constant struggle to stay above, joined by the team newly promoted.
The honest truth is that if we end up with a solid big 10 or so clubs who never experience relegation, the A-League will probably remain more financially secure.
For instance, what good is there for the league to see the Victory’s membership drop from 30,000 to 10,000 if they were ever to experience relegation? Absolutely zero benefit.
The FFA can’t guarantee that won’t happen of course, but it can progress to the sort of environment where that’s unlikely to happen (it’s in its best interests).
Every now and then, we might get a team rising above the morass on a semi-permanent basis, and that’s where the romanticism comes into it for all those new clubs starting out in the 2nd tier.
The reality for most of these clubs, though, is that life will be short and brutish.
That’s what we will have to pay the piper to get our four teams into the ACL.
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August 11th 2009 @ 9:39am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
md
I think you’re on the right track with your thinking – it’s something definitely worth exploring – the key aspect is that consistent with what I’m saying – there cannot be a big gap in quality between the two tiers – so this part mixing and matching might actually do the trick.
Brian M
I agree – this will be a massive challenge – massive risk – but the FFA will need to look at it at some point if they want their 4 teams in the ACL down the track.
August 11th 2009 @ 9:41am
Towser said | August 11th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
MD
To be blunt if teams in the First & second division play each other in the normal season,why bother? Just settle for a 22 team first division. Maybe our promotion relegation system has to be like everyone elses because thats the way it is & always has been & the AFC would not accept is as a genuine P/R system & reject it out of hand.
August 11th 2009 @ 9:43am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Towser
the answer will lie in getting those 4 ACL spots!!
August 11th 2009 @ 11:47am
md said | August 11th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
I think the AFC would be happy to accept it if it is viable – there is only 1 league playing for the Premiership. If the league is expanded to include more than one AFC nation (for example a Singapore side or if Oceania merges with the AFC), then they will definately not stand in the way.
Teams wise, I’m guessing you would have the 10 in the current competition, plus something like:
Sydney 2, Sydney 3, Wollongong, Canberra/AIS, Melbourne Heart, Victoria 3, (Adelaide 2 or Brisbane 2), Cairns, Darwin, Singapore, (NZ 2 Auckland/Christchurch), Tasmania
Cheers
md
August 11th 2009 @ 12:22pm
md said | August 11th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
If separation of the leagues is an issue though, there is a solution, which is to separate out the Premiership and the Championship. The Premiership + promotion or relegation is decided based on points within the league. The Championship is awarded based on the points from playing every other team.
How would it work: Well, the second round of fixtures within each league would count for both Premiership and Championship points. The inter-tier matches would only count for Championship points. The top 6 teams based on Championship points go into the finals for the Championship. This would also fix the old gripe that the Premiership doesn’t really count.
Cheers
md
August 11th 2009 @ 12:28pm
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
I think I understood it – but I’m not sure – come again!!
August 11th 2009 @ 12:46pm
md said | August 11th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
I might have overcomplicated it, but basically.
Premiership:
Premiership Tier 1 plays home + away. The league winners are the Premiers and there is much rejoicing. The bottom two teams are relegated and there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Premiership Tier 2 plays home + away. The top two teams (potentially involving a play-off between 2nd and 3rd) are promoted and there is much rejoicing.
Championship:
The basic premise is that every team plays every other team once, and the top 6 teams go into the play-offs much as they do now.
The second half of the premiership in each tier carries Championship points as well as Premiership points. In addition, every team plays each team in the other tier once. These matches only carry Championship points and would be interspersed evenly across the season.
The result is a Championship league table, where every club has played the other once. The top 6 (or 8 I suppose) play-off in some convoluted way and then there is a Grand Final, with much rejoicing.
I hope that is clearer. It certainly sounds like a lot of fun.
Cheers
md
August 11th 2009 @ 1:32pm
Davos said | August 11th 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
great concept! I have often thought how there could be the 1 league, say 18 -20 teams, all of equal slaery cap, exposure opp’s etc, however they are split somehow in the middle of the season, creating a 1 & 2 pool, with 1 pool competing for the glory and ACL spots. However I like your concept much better.
August 11th 2009 @ 1:33pm
Davos said | August 11th 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
my only issue was the pre-booking of stadia!! as we do not have dedicated stadia for football alone
August 11th 2009 @ 9:43am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Towser
good to have your opinion on this – you know what you’re talking about – A-League fans need to understand that it’s going to be bloody tough (if it happens at all).
August 11th 2009 @ 10:09am
albe said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
I think there’s a major problem with a 16 team A-League without promotion/relegation. (Personally i reckon 12 is the max for the league without P/R so we can keep some strong bidders for the second div.)
Leagues are much more exciting when there’s drama at both ends of the table. This is a strength of the P/R model around the world, and while i agree we should limit it here in the short term, its certainly got some advantages for growing football here.
The most of which is the possibility for smaller teams from regional areas to build a following through promotion to the A-League.
An A2 team set up along similar lines to the first seasons of the A-League would be a modest approach. With a one-up, one-down model … maybe decided by a playoff.
But its very possible to make a success of a two-league structure here. If anything it could spread the reach of the league beyond the traditional areas, opening up new markets. The key is how its set up, and ensuring there isn’t a huge gap between the two tiers.
August 11th 2009 @ 10:22am
AndyRoo said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
I think a second division would be an absolute failure money wise and would bleed players and fans. But that’s just my opinion and not worth anything.
The big carrot that proponents of the second division are waving is 4 ACL spots. These people are the strangers in the black van offering ice cream…don’t listen to them! Run away as fast as you can!
Firstly having Promotion/Relegation won’t guarantee 4 spots. The additional 2 spots come at the expense of someone else i.e. Korea, China or the two playoff spots (which service 4 leagues).
Giving the playoff spots to Australia would mean making the ACL a closed shop to the rest of Eastern Asia and only 4 countries competing.
China and Korea have been in the ACL forever and have bigger populations than Australia, China is also an economic superpower. It’s possible but don’t just expect the ACL to hand out spots automatically for successfully jumping through their hoops.
Secondly according to Wikipedia (so could be totally wrong) the K league got rid of automatic promotion and relegation years ago and went to an application system. And then in 2008 got rid of all promotion and relegation from the K league.
So Korea has no promotion and relegation yet gets 4 spots.
August 11th 2009 @ 10:28am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
AndyRoo
good, honest view – the K-League example is instructive.
So the FFA should forget about the possibility of 4 ACL spots forever?
Would the A-League then effectively become a 2nd tier league in Asia? (pretty much what we are right now)
August 11th 2009 @ 10:26am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Albe
I agree with the concept of a play-off (adds plenty of end of season interest), and I also agree that an A2 opens up possibilities for lesser teams to aim high – I think all that would be terrific.
But do not underestimate how tough this concept is – it will be very, very tough.
Just to give you an insight.
Let’s look at the Dutch Eerste Divisie (the one below the Eredivisie).
It’s a wealthy footballing country, same population as Australia, with the added advantage that they have only the one football code to speak of, AND, it’s such a small country you can travel to any part of it within the day quite easily.
Yet – in the bottom half of the Eerste divisie you will find clubs with salary budgets very similar to A-League clubs, attracting average crowds around the 3,000 to 3,500 mark.
Now – could an Australian club survive in the Australian sporting market place with a salary budget of $2 mill, attracting only 3,000 to 3,500 spectators to games, in a national comp? Unlikely.
How do these Eerste Divisie clubs survive? Well, they carry massive debt and are generally underwritten by private benefactors.
Now it’s possible that we could get that sort of thing happening in Australia – but I wouldn’t be betting the house on it.
August 11th 2009 @ 10:37am
thinker said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
lets get focused on a 14 team comp first.
Secondly expand the notion of finals to include a top 7 and the 9 state fed champs as a way of developing a champions league/fa cup hybrid feel to the finals. If after say 5 seasons this becomes a popular addition we expand it to top8 +24 state league spots would be given based on the afc’s acl criteria for leagues.
Thirdly introduce regional based p/r i.e if Sydney got relegated, a nswpl team would be promoted.
Relegation as another avenue to heaven rather than going to hell is the only way it would only work and be accepted in this country
August 11th 2009 @ 10:51am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Thinker
it all sounded ok till we got to the bit about SFC being replaced by a NSWPL team if relegated.
The old NSL used to work that way – I can recall a tiny club in Queanbeyan of who I was a member at the time, Inter-Monaro, getting promoted to the NSL for one season – it was a bit of a disaster and almost bankrupted the club.
I honestly can’t see that being a goer (although I could see something similar operating from the 2nd tier, where the jump for a state team wouldn’t be too great).
August 11th 2009 @ 11:08am
thinker said | August 11th 2009 @ 11:08am | Report comment
pip
when all of our deals relie on “National” coverage you can’t leave it on the hands of fate like that you need regional based p/r.
secondly the adoption of the afc acl criteria on those state leagues would be a massive reinvention of those leagues.It would leave those leagues to the big state clubs and freeze out the small clubs. The big state clubs who quite honestly could make the leap if there was enough licenses to go around.
August 11th 2009 @ 11:27am
Pippinu said | August 11th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Thinker
but it still makes sense to me that if there is to be regional based P & R, it would be via a 2nd tier, rather than directly into the A-League – it just sounds crazy that we could even contemplate the possibility of Altona Magic replacing the Victory via P & R – I can’t imagine the FFA agreeing to something like that in a million years.
August 11th 2009 @ 11:09am
AndyRoo said | August 11th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
My local club Greystanes was promoted to the top flight in NSW (for one season) and it was really exciting. But they had to move to a ground with a fence around it and charge money… all bad things. Luckily they didn’t try to stay up and go crazy by paying players or nutty stuff like that which kept the club solvent but meant we would have been quite awful for the competition as a whole.
Pip
I don’t say give up the dream of 4 spots, just that promotion relegation isn’t needed and that getting 4 spots is not guaranteed.
Keep improving our league on and off the field is the key and making our teams more and more attractive to watch. We don’t have to worry about ACL criteria, just worry about our own backyard. If we have a sexy competition that neutrals will enjoy watching then its win win. Win for Australian fans and win for our claims of deserving more spots.
Say for example MV were playing in front of 30k each week, had Mark Viduka and the Thai International full back in the starting line up and made the semi finals of the ACL, that’s how we get more spots. Not crippling our league financially so South Melbourne have a shot at the A league.
Adelaide United’s run in the ACL did more for the A league getting more spots than promotion relegation ever would. CCM probably cost us though.
If our teams regularly make it out of the group stage at the expense of Chinese and Korean opponents then that’s a pressing claim for more spots.
That sounds arrogant but the K league example shows it’s all about performance, commercial viability and crowds… promotion relegation is a distant concern.
hmm I hope this isn’t coming accross as too aggressive, I have actually stored up this argument from when I first saw Simon Hills article about Promotion Relegation. I think he went through all the options and listed telling the AFC to F off as a bad option, I wanted too say it’s actually a very good option becasue it’s worked for Korea but Fox sports don’t allow comments.