By Adrian Musolino
September 2nd 2009 @ 5:48am
Related coverage
FFA needs to reconsider expansion plans for 2010/11
Gold Coast players react after Jason Culina scored in the 59th minute to put the Coast 2-0 up during the 1st round A-League football match between Brisbane Roar and Gold Coast United at Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane, Saturday, Aug. 8, 2009. (AAP Image/Dave Hunt)
Expansion hasn’t been the golden ticket to significantly better crowd figures with a below 10,000 average crowd for the last round highlighting the complexities of drawing punters at this time of the year. But rather than being the ticket to better crowds, expansion is partly the reason for the deplorable crowds in Brisbane.
Brisbane came into this season off the back of an impressive run in the latter stages of last season and have shown flashes of its exciting attacking capability this season, despite a woeful run of injuries.
They have some of the most exciting Australian youngsters in the league, an inspirational captain and national team hero, a well-known coach not afraid to speak his mind, and a gun new import.
So why the enormous drop in crowd figures?
Obviously there have been some self-inflicted mistakes that have cost the Roar big.
The much-discussed cost of tickets is a shambles with season ticket holders charged an extra $169 this season compared to last.
Once such information becomes public knowledge, then perceptions tend to be exaggerated, keeping away those mindful of their budgets.
It’s a warning to all A-League teams and the FFA — don’t treat the paying public with contempt for you will feel their wrath.
But the enormity of the crowd drop in Brisbane specifically must be partly put down to the changes in the Queensland football landscape.
From the sole representatives of the sunshine state, with its name reflecting that, Brisbane’s market for potential sponsors, television audiences and, to a certain extent, crowd figures, has been cut by a third, not good for a team struggling financially and relying on the FFA to help bolster their coffers.
For Queensland residents travelling down to the state capital or ex-pat Brisbane residents from Townsville or the Coast, there is little reason to catch a Roar match, especially if they have jumped off the bandwagon to follow their own teams.
This problem will be multiplied with second teams in Melbourne (the Hearts) and Sydney, for the simple reason that, in the latter’s case at least, the geographical distance between the second franchise will be a lot shorter than in Brisbane.
For all its promise and the encouraging signings of some impressive names from the backroom to the head coach, there is still no clear sign as to how the Melbourne Hearts will differentiate themselves from the Victory.
There will be no geographical difference.
If this was an important consideration, then South Melbourne would have been the only real option and that wasn’t necessarily going to happen considering the huge cultural shift of the FFA away from all that the NSL symbolised compared to the A-League.
Aside from attracting Victory fans when Archie and co are playing away and the Hearts are the only team in town, what will convince a Victory supporter to throw away their scarf and defect to the Hearts?
The differentiation will have to come from how the club plays its football with a European style already promised with the signing of experienced Dutch coach Henk van Stee.
Heaven forbid if they fail to achieve this differentiation in the way they approach their football for, unless they bring in Mark Viduka from the wilderness, they will have little to tempt Victory fans.
Last week the FFA delayed a final decision on the twelfth franchise to join the Hearts in the A-League to allow the bidders more time to present their case.
Perhaps there needs to be some acceptance that expansion, for next season at least, may be too much too soon, and working out a better strategy when introducing a second franchise into a market is needed.
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Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 6:22am | Report comment
The HAL operates in a super competitive market place –
for people to blithely suggest last year that falling crowds across the board was nothing to worry about because 2 new teams would generate all this new excitement and all that…..
….when exactly is all that excitement going to be generated??
After AFL and NRL finals??
If so, again, just further proof of the super competitive market place and the dangers of too rapid expansion too soon with too much overlap with AFL and NRL.
but – what if AFL and NRL aren’t the real reason??
Simmo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
and what if they are?
roary said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:36am | Report comment
So what we do is not expand and have only 8 or 10 sides? You have to go to 12 to make it a reasonable league to give enough guys a chance of playing.
Ideally, in my book 12 is the optimum amount. No more. Australia won’t be able to have more professional sides for another generation. It’ll be tight as it is.
Gold Coast and Townsville were mistakes, pure and simple. Gold Coast has lost every pro sports team ever there. When Claude Palmer gets bored with this new toy, who will keep it going? Townsville is only a township.
They should have gone to Wollongong, West Sydney and Melbourne or Geelong before these Queensland resort towns. Sometimes I wonder if the FFA really is that cluey. Bizarre.
Anyhow, stick to 12 and aim to get playing salaries up to 10 million per club within a decade. With full time professionalism and all the international games in Asia it will raise the standards enormously from the old NSL era.
It irritates me about the Euro-snob element. Outside the top 5 nations in Europe the interest in leagues and clubs drops away significantly even over there. It is all down to the almighty buck, who pays it gets all the talent. We need more money or just stay as a development league. It is actually a pretty realistic indication where Australia sits in the economic world too. Just like the Big Mac index with currencies.
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 7:12am | Report comment
HAL started earlier and will learn lessons from scheduling mistakes this time around. More people have attended games this year so far than last and whilst Newcastle and Brisbane crowds have been poor the others have been ok and will grow as the season progresses. The standard of play is better and more players of quality are returning to play here.
Expansion to 12 is necessary and then take a break from expansion to see how the league is travelling.
HAL has followed the same path as J League and MLS in terms of attendances and both those leagues are doing very well now. Football has some very wealthy and influential people backing it and will continue to grow…look at the year ahead;
MV to move into a new stadium with their memberships approaching 19,000, 2nd highest ever and will grow again next season
A game in Melbourne every week next season
Likelihood of more Socceroos coming back to play in Oz next year after the WC
WC and the lead up to it to give even more exposure to the game
Over 250 full time professional footballers during 2010 plus over 100 NYL players
Extra Sydenee team based in the biggest football area in the country
Yes challenging times ahead but given the rocky past the game has endured in Oz l know how much stronger the game is now compared to just 5 years ago.
Dont worry about the doomsayers HAL you are doing just fine and need to continue measured growth.
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
So far, aggregate attendance is up 20K on last year, but, still down 8K on same stage of V3 (after 4 rounds).
re last year, crowds effectively up 10% on aggregate, however, there’s 25% more games each week.
Around the venues so far:
Suncorp obviously down – - is -11% yr on yr for round 4 (is that all due the early start/season overlap?) – just don’t mention the year on year round 4 decline since the heady days of V1 and V2 (18K averages). 3 matches in 4 rounds – - including the 20K ‘blockbuster’ opener vs GCU.
Wellington is going okay….one home crowd in at 10K. Too early to tell.
Aussie – SFC is down 5% on last year so far, and again, looking back to V1 (20K) and V2 (17K), the current 13K figure must surely be due to the seasonal overlap with NRL/AFL.
Up in Newcastle – 2 games in, and 6.5K avg, down 53% on same time last year. Blame the Knights.
CCM – down 10% on V4, but, V4 started quite well, and the figure is the 2nd best, even up on the V3 start. So, that’s looking okay – - but, no direct NRL overlap.
MVFC – at Etihad, 2 games in, and a drop of 21% already on last year. To this point last year 23.7K which was already down 5.7K on V3 and 16K on V2. Again, direct impact of overlap with AFL?
ME stadium – 2 games in, and a 2% gain on V4. Sub 9K figures, so, still, hardly anything to write home about, but, in AFL territory – holding ground must be seen as a ‘win’.
Hindmarsh – Ade Utd have started quite well, better than V3 so far, and up 36% on V4. Even with the Crows surging into the finals.
Importantly – Perth and Adelaide are NOT dual NRL/AFL cities. Where soccer is number 1 (Gosford), or number 2 (Adelaide/Perth/Wellington) – it’s doing okay, everywhere else is ranging from ordinary to dismal to really dismal if you look back as far as the honeymoon period.
This is the obvious danger of too great an expansion, too soon, into AFL and NRL seasons in flagship cities such as Melb, Syd and Brisbane. The image of 6000 crowds at Suncorp and Skilled does not sit with all the hyperbole of Mr.Palmer. (how much of the stadium will he shut down? – - not saying this doesn’t happen elsewhere, but, inside the first 4 rounds???).
agga78 said | September 2nd 2009 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Low crowd figures in Brisbane are not the result of expansion, they are a result of playing two games on Sat arvo for one, poor management with a disgraceful increase in ticket prices and not enough exposure in the media. Brisbane like all A league clubs should be tapping into the vast number of amateur players in Australia, they should be linking up with all there local associations in Brisbane and surrounds and offering hughly discounted memberships or 3, 5 or 7 game memberships with registered players within those junior or senior competitions. THese people are already interested in football, they just need a little push to make them interested in their local A league team. This may result in less revenue in the short term but may build a stronger fanbase in the long run, which is what A league clubs need.
The main reason for stopping expasion is quality on the pitch if the two new teams are more like NQF, then expasion should be delayed if they are more like Gold Coast then expansion should go ahead. Melbourne and especially Sydney love winners and if these teams can win on the park they will get good enough support, but the most important thing they have to doc is connect with their local football community and offer incentives to join the team and success will come at least off the pitch.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:03am | Report comment
‘Build it & they will come’
Firstly I think expansion is necessary, for us to even compete with AFL & NRL, we need more teams in the HAL. This is the worst possible scenerio they could follow by avoiding expansion.
With the 2 extra teams especially Gold Coast & even with Nh Queensland, the Fowler factor, I think it’s been a sucess.
While the crowds are not there yet, it’s only been 4 rounds & yes Brisbane is worrying, very worrying, the others are as expected. It will take Gold Coast & Nth Queensland awhile to build up their fan base. the other side that has poor crowd figures are Newcastle & can you blame them for the soap opera happening, they are as stable as the NSW labour government.
Secondly, don’t get caught up on this competitive market crap, even Cockerill mentioned that Sydney was the most competitive market in the world, what a load of crap. Look at the US they have 4 major sports & then they have football which isn’t up there as a major sport but has decent following & Rugby is a niche sport there as well. Add all the individual sports they excel at like Athletics, Tennis & Golf. England, they have all the same sports as Australia except for AFL.
France has football, both Rugby codes & basketball, don’t forget cycling is huge there, not to mention their winter sports.
Just because it’s not mentioned in this country doesn’t mean it does not exist. The AFL is never discussed in France but it’s huge here.
We in Australia areno different to the other countries as far as competition, only difference is in Australia football is the small sport, while in England even cricket pales into insignificant to Football.
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Robbos,
The USA is a poor comparison. Yes they have 4 major professional codes, but they also have 300 million people, and only the major cities ( 2 million plus) are represented in all major competitions (and then, still not all of them – San Antonio Tx has a metro area of over 2 million people and only has the Spurs basketball team in a major competition). Further, US cities generally only have 1 team per code per city – with exceptions of major conurbations like LA, NY and Chicago (Chicago has 9.5 million people in its metro area and has 2 baseball teams and 1 team in each of the other codes).
If you want to consider how crowded our market is: the square stadium in Melbourne that A-league fans desparately want already has 4 teams across 3 professional codes lining up to use it.
Cheers
md
True Tah said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Robbos
one thing you fail to mention is that the UK and France have populations over 60m in an area roughly the same size as NSW. The US is huge, but it has over 300m and is the worlds largest economy.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Ok there is not many countries like Australia that you can compare us to. Canada? Ice Hockey, American Football, baseball, football?
True Tah said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Ireland – Gaelic football, Hurling and Rugby
Wales – Rugby
Again these are both small countries and insignificant in world terms.
South Africa is probably the closest in terms in size, although population they are much bigger and whilst futbol is the biggest sport in South Africa, Australia is far more successful on the world stage and has far more players playing in the strongest leagues. Whilst rugby and cricket will take some of that support away, that will only happen over time.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
What I’m getting at is that other countries have other sports, Handball is massive in northern Europe, basketball is also very big in europe as is alpine sports. We tend to think we have the market cornered for most competitive sports. I lived in England & sure they have a bigger population, but generally they are not as sports mad as us Aussies are.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Sports like handball and basketball are quite popular in parts of Europe, but generally speaking, they involve newish clubs, not 100 year old clubs as are to be found in the top tiers of many of the football comps.
I keep coming back to this point – it’s an important one.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
According to wikipedia handball was first introduced to the summer olympics in 1936, so that is 70 years old. There are some handball clubs dating back to the turn of the last century & there is 19 million registered players worldwide.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
Many Basketball clubs in Europe date back to the 1930s.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:11pm | Report comment
Fair enough – but it’s still not the 1890s – and you can imagine that those early clubs would have been pretty anonymous for a few decades.
In fact, one of the stronger leagues, the Handball Bundesliga, was only formed in 1965.
I think it’s fair to say that this game in a place like Germany has filled the void that may have been filled by other forms of football.
albe said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Expansion is still the right course IMO … i think the second Melbourne team will actually do really well if they tap into the VPL fan base and people who maybe want a more ‘Euro’ team over the Muscat-led Victory.
As far as the 12th team goes, i agree Sydney II is a risk and perhaps Canberra with its more modest aims is the better option.
I really think going forward, regional areas are where the league needs to expand to. One more Sydney team at some point, but beyond that any 2nd division needs to go to new (regional) areas to make it viable. Rather than crowding out existing teams. Looking like 12 teams are the max for the top flight.
On the crowds generally, the 10k average still looks fine and this is early season. The only ones stoking the panic flames are the usual suspects …
whiskeymac said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
considering the distance am not conviced NQs inclusion is diluting the Roar’s crowds – wld people really travel the distance to watch a roar game from NQ? if so why quibble over the price of a ticket when the petrol alone would have set you back the cost of a Man City striker. GCU however might be more realistic in splitting the fanbase, but at the same time you’d think (admittedly from a PC miles away from either) that the rivalry (overtime) it might geerate will gain momentum and be a good thing for the sporting landscape and therefore crowds will grow. you’d think anyway.
still the sentiment that the HAL is going through growing pains is enough to numb any fears, and nagging voices from some bloggers, for now. Maybe after the WC boost and Asian Cup interest (assuming we qualify) it will follow that football will have in the forseeable future 2 good years, followed by 2 leaner ones, before the cycle resets itself? very biblical. or topical if you prefer el nino, la nina analogies. and as the game grows and ply improves (assuming it does) maybe the leaner years wont be as worrying for the administrators (advertisers etc)…
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Adrian, being a local I do not buy the argument that expansion into the Gold Coast has hurt Brisbane crowds. Having travelled by train to Roar games from Gold Coast since game 1 of the A League, my firm impression is that the numbers of fans travelling up was never significant -certainly nowhere near enough to cause what has happened this season at Roar games. Brisbane’s falling crowds have been due to confluence of factors: the local NRL and AFL sides surging into the finals in their comps; glorious unseasonal weather which made the 3pm starts relatively unattractive; the 3pm starts coinciding with all the local comps (junior and senior) finals; tough times meaning people are being hit in the wallets; a long history of the team disappointing its fans at home and two bad home results first up; and the offensive and simply stupid (the only word) ticket price increases that run counter to all marketing principles. The idiocy of the Roar’s ticket price increases in a time of recession and uncertainty is breathtaking. This single factor, if you listen to people talk, is what is doing the most to keep people (including myself) away from Suncorp. I have atttended once, with two kids and for resonable but not great seats it cost me $94. What a ripoff. So I’ve voted with my feet. I’ll watch it on Fox, except for the “blockbuster” games.
Marlon said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Agree….expansion willl destroy the A League. They should focus on the teams that they have and then look to the quality of the comp – which is dreadful.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
If there were no new teams this season would have been a lot worse. Another season with the same 8 teams again aghhh.
And despite the horrible prices the Roar will still likely average more than 10k by seasons end. Not only were those games during the day they were also the two worst drawing crowds (Nix and Mariners)
I see more of a risk in the Melbourne team (they will be playing in the same Stadium) than the West Sydney one but both will probably help the existing teams in the Derby and actually creating stories. How much tripe we read about AFL in Brisbane and Sydney because with only the one team there isn’t a lot to talk about to fill their space. But look at rugby league, the Titans and Cowboys were good for the Broncos and league in QLD. Fury and GCU should have been the same for the Roar but they self destructed so can’t take advantage of much more QLD interest.
The gate receipts they got for the GCU game I suspect are a regular season record for the Roar even if I there were likely1,000 freebies for the kids.
Imagine if the opening game in QLD had of been against say Adelaide instead of the Gold Coast. They may have only got 15k and would be even more worried.
I really can’t see how we will ever have enough teams for a 2nd Division. After West Sydney are in whats left…. Tasmania and Canberra would be the next in line. They would both be regional teams like the Fury who I would like too see in eventually but that’s it. 14 teams.
It would be yonks (like 15 to 20 years) before I could even imagine ever putting in a second team in say Adelaide or Perth. Or expanding to Auckland.
I expect we wil see West Sydney with Hearts for next year then a year of non expansion and then perhaps Canberra and then 1 or 2 years later Tasmania. Then 5 years of no expansion.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
The GCU game was not the regular season record for the Roar, but it was one of their bigger regular season crowds.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Yes, crowd size wise they have done better but I think Gate Receipt wise (the money they received) it would have been the biggest becasue of the price of tickets.
if you use steves figures of 25% higher prices then getting 19k this year is the equiv of getting 23,750 people last year
TomF said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Still doesn’t come near the biggest crowds, even with the mark up. Some of the crowds v Sydney have been huge!
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Its relatively easy to have decent ave crowds with only 8 teams if one team is consistently pulling 20k+ crowds (Victory). The stakes are raised however when expansion teams come in, as these sides need to pull their weight to keep ave crowds decent. As the Fury and GCU are struggling with crowds they’re pulling the rest down (let alone poor crowds from existing teams esp in Brisbane and Newcastle)
Shouldn’t expansion clubs have some minimum criteria for membership and community interest? From memory this was required for AFL and NRL expansion. Clearly having 10k+ membership was not part of the criteria for NQ and GCU.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
GCU has had only one home game. Way to early to apply “struggling” to them.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Nth Queensland is also the same, they have only had 2 matches at home. Way too early to judge.
The real issue is Brisbane Roar & Newcastle jets (but they have an excuse).
David V. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Japan have gone for the UK model of blanketing the whole country with league clubs. It’s working well isn’t it?
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
And they also experience a bit of a lul in crowds the following seasons before these teams grew roots and bloomed.
Just like where going through now so Japan has been a good example so far.
David V. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
For football to grow it needs to blanket coverage and concentrate clubs in populated areas. That’s how it worked in England, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and many other countries and that’s the culture I want to see develop in Australia. The whole culture of football is built around parochialism and tribalism, why not follow what works?
Koala Bear said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Robbos is quite correct with his very good point “Build it and they will come”…
We have to look at the greater picture here i.e. We need 4 ACL spots in Australian Football, so the only way to achieve that, is by expansion, and a longer season, eventually to rival the J-League for now… Then to emulate the EPL’s 10 month long ‘Football Season’… I don’t care what the other codes do… Let’s not even think about them, good luck to them; I hope you are still around when Timmy’s army takes over…
The key to a successful HAL is a constant exposure and good club performances in the ACL, with lots of money to be had… Adelaide United has given us a taste of what it means to get going and have a good run in an ACL competition … Just imagine if we had 4 HAL clubs in the ACL playing off against the top J-League clubs into the quater finals and semis of the ACL; what an impact that would have in the Australian media as it did in Adelaide..
Just imagine the SFC, Melb Vic, Adelaide and The ROAR or Gold Coast, all doing well in the same year of an ACL tournament against the top J-League clubs on a home and away contests … it would be phenomenal… That can only happen with an expanded HAL comp… So, I am prepared to throw caution to the win and get it moving up, as soon as possible… What ever it takes…
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
KB –
in a virgin sports market – you might be right.
‘build it and they will come’, really only applies when there’s no more established pre-existing competition.
The 4 ACL spots is the carrot, but, not only do you risk putting the cart before the horse, is it worth killing the horse in the process of building the cart in somebody elses image?
Whatever it takes – - I guess the assumption is that once FL passes on, that CP will be the new sugar daddy of the league….having seen the transcript of the 60 mins story.
Millster said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
KB – you know that I am a strong ‘football friend’. But I am careful about this push for 4 ACL spots. Yes it would be good if it can be managed. But we must not go to hard too soon and destabilise the still-fragile domestic position that we are building just to meet some external criteria. Better for it to take another 5 years to get the 4 spots, but when we do we go there with quality clubs playing in a quality league with a strong domestic base upon which to aim for continental success. Not saying we don’t have that now, we’re building in the right direction, but just that I’d prefer a slow and careful approach to going all guns blazing and stuffing it up. (Also I am convinced that 4 ACL spots from a 12 or 16 team comp is too many anyway; it should be a prize reserved only for the very best each year).
Koala Bear said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Millster,
It’s always a pleasure to read your comments, especially when they are addressed to me… I hold them in the highest regard… However, we differ on this one, when I first heard of Frank Lowy wanting 4 clubs in the ACL; I was of the same opinion as you… I have since changed my mind about it… I now honestly believe 4 clubs in the ACL would be the real turning point for Australian Football (hopefully very competitive teams)… Nonetheless, we need to be proactive not just hoping that one day we will have a 16 team comp and P&R in some distant future…
I did hear Ben Buckley say that, having 4 teams in the ACL was not necessary dependent on a ‘P&R Football Competition’… But if the FFA put forward a good argument for the extra spots, it would be possible to achieve… Having an “Australian National Football Team” made up of primarily HAL players reaching the final of the Asian National Championships could be the catalyst…
Therefore, we do not necessarily have to have a P&R comp in place for 4 spots, but a very viable quality 14 or 16 HAL comp in progress with a strong, competitive Australian National Football Team winning in Asia…
Last week I saw some very real progress in the HAL’s standard with some entertaining football being played so far this year… For an example the Adelaide United FC vs. the Fury FC was breathtaking attacking football that I saw on Fox TV…
I was also at ‘Fortress Miron’ to witness the historical match between GCU vs. Fury the week before, and the GCU were breathtaking with slick fast moving Football… Australian Football is getting better and better each year in my opinion… I’m now of the opinion that, after the 2010 world cup, there will be another leap forward and Timmy’s army are on the march baying for blood, as they now can certainly see the whites in their enemy’s eyes… As Malcolm X (Foz) recently wrote in his infamous article, which has set the cat amongst the ‘Grooky Melburnian Pigeons’…
Your comrade in arms forever, viva la Federation football forever… (You know what I mean
)
~~~~~~
KB
DiCanio said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Right now every club should be offering low prices on tickets and targeting youth markets and clubs.
Focus on youth and build the club around strong youth membership that will grow up in the aleague environment and be more likely to bring their kids to games down the track.
13 and under free with a parent.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Absolutely spot on DiCanio, but they’re not listening at the Roar or GCU, unfortunately. It is simply marketing basics. You don’t react to tough markets by raising prices. You discount.
Steve said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Its all got to do with the pricing of tickets. The 1st Derby game should have got 40k+ but got only 20k. The Central Coast/Wellington games got 25k between them last HAL season this season 14k in total.+
Heres why,
The cheapest Family ticket (Brisbane FC) will set a family back $75 and an adult $27 (the Brisbane Lions charge $48 for GA tickets and allow up to 4 kiddies to accompany two adults).
A student/concession ticket for MVFC is $13, but is $23 for the BFC. A child ticket costs $11 at MVFC but $18 for the BFC. Then you have the staggered prices for category 2 and 1 tickets. You cannot get a family ticket and watch anywhere on the sides for a BFC match for less than $115. These prices are, wait for it, on average, between 20-25% dearer than they were last year. Can anybody nominate any product that has spiked that much from one year to the next, especially in a depressed economic environment, with increased competition (in the form of a very competent GCUFC outfit)? The stupidity of the ticketing decision is staggering.
The quote in the article below says it all………..
“Once such information becomes public knowledge, then perceptions tend to be exaggerated, keeping away those mindful of their budgets.”
A-League Football Clubs arn’t going to make profits until the next TV deal comes around, so ripping off the public not only damages the Brand 2day, but also stunts any future growth.
Football in Queensland (unlike the NRL in Melbourne and the AFL in QLD/NSW) has a massive family. But forcing the people to folk out ridiculous sums of $$$ to watch A-league Football, on top of the ridiculous amount 100k+ pay in registration fees, well, something has to give.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
The people who made those pricing decisions at the Roar need to be fired. My fear is that they could well have dealt the club a near mortal blow. Having had a career working with brands and marketing, I just can’t believe what the Roar have done this season. Commercial suicide. If the FFA comes in and takes a controlling interest (as seems likely) my hope is that they will act swiftly to reduce ticket prices, and add to that a marketing campaign to repair the damage.
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Lets be clear: Stadium costs are out of control in Qld because the Qld Government is frankly broke. It’s completely nuts that the Roar plays in such a huge stadium, where the stadium owners are looking to recover both massive recent (over) investment and substantial costs of running the venue. That is what is hurting the Roar the most – 6 to 10K people in a new 53K stadium that the indebted Qld Government is still trying to pay for. A stadium bigger than Stamford Bridge and only slightly smaller than Emirates, for a club that has a 5 year history does not make sense. Lang Park is designed for State of Origins & Bledisloe Cups, not week to week football. The Qld Government investment in Lang Park and indeed Skilled was a bread and circuses bit of politicking, that the clubs are being punished for. The Roar should look to do a deal with the QRU to use Ballymore, or with the RNA to use the Ekka ground, instead of being held to ransom.
The SFS is also probably too big at 45K, but at least it is a 20 year old stadium where the major costs are running and maintenance, and not recouping major investments.
I should also add that if the new Sydney team uses Homebush, then they can expect to be rogered in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reasons.
Cheers
md
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
The irony here is that in Melbourne, MVFC get a sugar coated deal at Docklands – - especially compared to certain AFL clubs who can draw 30K and still lose money. (I know, it’s all complicated and multi faceted).
Ideally, MVFC use the venue in the ‘off season’, and were ‘lured’ away from Olympic Park.
Up in QLD, even during the ‘off-season’ (i.e. outside the NRL season), it seems that the soccer clubs are certainly getting no favours (should they anyway?? – especially if privately owned, such as by Australia’s richest man).
Surely there’s a cute little 15-20K venue tucked away somewhere that the Roar can play at and force Suncorp management to put forward a competitive offer for ‘budget’ games at the venue???
btw – I’m aware of that odd thing around the Govt ‘tax’ if a crowd is over a certain number, and so Palmer wanted to shut down enough of the stadium to ensure that he didn’t have to pay that tax. Sounds like short sighted penny pinching. It really makes me wonder about the motivation & commitment of people like Palmer.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Palmer wasn’t really going to shut down the ground. Firstly an article with no quotes comes out in the news limited Courier Mail with no quotes talking about capping it at 5k then the next day in the news Limited GC Bulletin he gives a full interview and says he would never do that but then goes on as to why the tax is unfair and that it should be pro rata for GCU and the Titans.
Rob said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
MD,
The problem with your solution of using Ballymore is its accessibility. It has crap public transport, is tucked away in a hollow in Lutwyche without adequate parking, and would therefore be more of an impediment to crowds than anything else.
Interestingly, the EKKA ground used to get big crowds for football games of all codes in the 1960s, so it might be a way of re-igniting the history of the place. Of course, the stands would need renovation, but in terms of public transport, etc, it would be a winner. Also, I understand the Ekka trust is not in the best shape financially, so they might consider a lease agreement with someone under fairly generous terms…
Who knows?
The only other solution is to reduce those stupid ticket prices – they’ve stopped me going to Roar games.
Cheers,
Rob.
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Yeah – you are right about the location of Ballymore.
I think the Ekka ground would be an interesting option – there needs to be a renewal of that section of the inner city anyway, so that it is used for more than a week in August and finding someone to use the stadium regularly would be a big part of that. It’s a huge chunck of inner-city land, well serviced by transport, that basically does nothing all year (especially now that Livid has departed this mortal coil…) For all of the slagging off of Fox Studios in Sydney (Sydney’s old show grounds), it now gets used for concerts, markets, movies, ice skating and ten thousand rug clearances as well as providing handy parking and an eating/drinking spot for attendees of the SFS and SCG, and they still make movies there. The Ekka ground has potential written all over it, and would have the massive advantage of transport links that SFS/SCG/Fox Studios lacks.
Of course, Brissie has a stadium that was refurbished specifically to meet FIFA’s conditions, and notwithstanding the oval shape it was a thoroughly excellent place to watch football in the Olympics…
I think the ticket prices are a factor of the stadium costs in Qld – as Clive let on recently when he wanted to cap the crowds, the Qld Government charges a $5 per head surcharge if you get over 5000 people to a match at Skilled. I would guess there is something similar happening at Suncorp Stadium.
Cheers
md
Tom F said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
MD,
The $5 surcharge is for free public transport to the game- it’s a payment to Translink and it is a good thing- alternative = traffic chaos {btw Palmer is a Tool!]. The stadium deals themselves are ridiculous- the Qld Govt is trying to recoup capital expenditure on the stadiums rather than sinking the cost against attracting major events. The Celtic game was a bit of an eye opener- 10,000 tourists in the city for the match. What rankles me is that the Bonkos get a sweetheart deal, as do the Reds, and the Roar have to pay full-freight when they are trying to build a team in a new competition. No wonder Bligh got roundly booed at the pre-match presentation for the Celtic game- Football fans know they are getting screwed!
Woody Warambel said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Md
The Boncos play their home games at games at Suncorp & average about 35,000. Likewise the Titan are average over 20,000 at Skilled.
Are you suggesting the government shouldn’t have built these stadiums?
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
It’s fine for the Gvt to build stadiums for political / community benefit reasons, but seeking to recover the costs of overbuilding and overservicing from sporting clubs that rarely make a profit, is plainly wrong. Your stats suggest that the Broncos still have an average of 18,000 seats of overcapacity at Lang Park – and that is for a team that has a 20 year history.
Killer_Tomatoes said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
The reason the FFA see it as neccesary is quite obviously to tap into new football interest post WC2010, as they probably, and quite realistically in my opinion, see the only way to generate enough support for teams in city’s with already established teams is to, for the main, rely on new football fans. This is more so true in Melbourne than in Sydney. There is, as has been mentioned in the article, no reasons of geographical loyalty or even conveniance for somebody to swtich from Victory to Heart (or whatever it is they will be called) becuase of the nature of Melbourne as a city. Some will defect due to what is percieved as negative football by the Victory (don’t know how negative winning two championships in four years is, but people are strange) and some will shift because of a large undercurrent of dislike for the Muscat-Merrick axis, but the influence of VPL (ex-NSL and otherwise) support will have for this club is grossly overplayed – as i’ve mentioned on this site before. There is simply no large ground swell of interest from these people, who for the most part remain disenfranchised. Most of these types who are willing to follow the A-League in any sense already follow the Victory, many still going to watch their old VPL clubs in the winter as well. Yes, some will follow Heart out of hate for the Victory, but the majority of hate at these historical clubs is actually resentment towards the FFA and A-League for leaving them behind, Victory is just a local manifestation of this, an entity to target it at, and Heart will be seen as no different for most.
West Sydney is in my limited knowledge more likely to draw wide local support, but even there, loyalties to old clubs remain and to the best of my understanding, the general Western Sydney region is not as happily united as some FFA executives are gambling on. A postive for them is that even some of the most loyal and active supporters of SFC have already decided to go and follow the West side when it finally comes to fruition, but the same can not be said for the Hearts and SFC’s active Victory counterparts, as they represent their city as a whole and not a region of it. Even the most disenfranchised are smart enough to ounderstanfd that at Heart, under FFA control, the situation will be no different.
As for Brisbane, this has been a monstorous cock up by the FFA, and as in Melbourne with the Thursday night fixtures, by playing the games on Saturday arvo’s during juniors matches, a bunch of non-football people have completely misinterpreted the local football landscape in an attpempt to take advanetage of what were already successful crowds. I won’t even get in to ticket prices, that is a sink or swim issue if not addressed next season.
David V. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Actually, I’ve said elsewhere that support for the local “ethnic” clubs which was always limited to those communities (although Blacktown City are one of the more successful non-ethnic local clubs, and Marconi aren’t caught up in the poisonous atmosphere of nationalism a la Sydney United or Bonnyrigg) is dying out as these communities and others integrate into the greater society. Western Sydney is a melting pot of all cultures- Anglo, European, Asian etc- as well as income and age groups. The ability of a club to appeal to all of these groups will be key to be successful.
I’m well aware of the costs of playing football. The problem here in NSW is that FNSW are a hopelessly inept organisation, and for all the faults of Foster and the SBS crew, they are 100% right in criticising them and I am fully with them on it.
The 1 and Only Master said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
A second division in soccer is a pipe dream. What would happen if the Bathurst blowhards qualified for the A-League, nothing short of disaster.
No 2nd division, no promotion/relegation means no world cup in this country as stated by the world governing body.
No world cup, no exponential growth, the end result being a slow and steady death for the A-league. Good riddance
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
How about wasting someone else’s time.
Luke W said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Why does no promotion/relegation mean no World Cup exactly? I have never heard of this rule.
Norm said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
speaking of no growth masterless tell us again of the melbourne game’s global spread after 151 yrs.
melbvictory87 said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
honestly its just the prices that cause 80% and 20% is the poor media coverage. in melbourne 20% pricing and 80% poor media in brisbane i can guarantee its 90% prices and 10% media. their robbing their clients in broad daylight!
Brian said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Aside from coverage the AFL/NRL seasons hurt ground availablity. MVFC crowds are down because they are forced to play on Thursday night to avoid an AFL clash. In two weeks Etihad’s AFL commitments will be over and games can be scheduled at better times like Friday night or Sunday afternoon.
The only real disappointment so far is Qld. Looks like this is down to overprice tickets and bad management
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Actually Etihad’s AFL commitment is already over — well, technically, they are committed THIS weekend, but, not required. After week 1 of AFL finals, Etihad is off the hook.
megatron said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
I think the relevant point you make is about the second Melbourne team. Can’t see how they can build a substantial fanbase of their own.
Rellum said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
I put this in another discussion but it was lost in the mix. I agree with the notion that the A-League is going through thhe growing pains similar to the J-League. To help the league get though this period I was ponder where it is worth giving a discount to current registered players and officals.
Since the football fraternity already pays a small fortune for the privilege of playing the game, maybe it is time to give them a financial break (Instead of seeing them as a cash cow) and give all registered players and club officials a discount for A-League games. I am talking something significant like 40%. I know things like this have been done adhoc by some of the clubs, but I am talking about a FFA initiative across the board, to lure the football playing public to the games to help them show their support for the sport they love. Call it the “My A-League Family” (Hint: like the do for the “My football family” national ticket scheme). Enough people have used the cost of tickets as an excuse for not going to games to make the cost worth reconsidering.
This is just an idea, certainly not the solution to all the problems, and may create to many of its own to be worthwhile. But at least it will encourage some football people to the games.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
It’s right to look at the J-League as a blue print of how you start a football comp from the ground up – as long as people remain mindful of the differences of which there are big ones:
1. massive population of 100 million in a smallish space relative to Australia
2. no serious competition from any other football code
3. no other clubs of any description with histories going back 150 years.
It simply amazes me that people are so dismissive of that 3rd point in particular. You don’t quash that sort of generational attachment to an historic club overnight.
If Palmer decided to bribe half of the Australian population to switch allegiance, would that do it?
He would have to use his $6 billion fortune to give 10 million Australians $600 each.
Would that do the trick?
I’ll be honest – I doubt – that gives you an idea of the scale of the issue being discussed here.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
The Baseball clubs in Japan may not be 150 years or a football code but it was and still is the number one sport in Japan.
100 million people in a small island is definitely a whole different world though and there are other differences as well.
But the general excitement of the 1st season tapering off until the roots of the competition are stronger (5 years is nothing) has proven to be remarkably similar. When hearing the president of Urawa Reds talk about marketing it’s funny how similar the situation was.
Steve said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
What with this “switch allegiance” garbage you vicball folk talk about.
The numbers in the FOOTBALL Family in Australia s#$’s on the vicball family.
With the exemption being the popularity of the domestic club competitions.
A-League Football DOESNT need the egg-ball folk to switch sides………..it needs its OWN family to give Australian Football a go instead of supporting [via the tube] overseas football. Instead of buying a $120 ManU shirt + Foxtel + overseas membership, buy an A-League Membership. 42k at the TD to watch Juventus FC D-team in an exhibition game but MVFC only average 24k for the season. Why don’t the other 18k Juve fans go to an A-league game?
If FFA can convert existing Football fans to being A-League fans the A-League would go gangbusters.
Vicball doesn’t have that problem. How many people are going to choose to spend a membership on the Coburg lions instead of the Carlton Blues? Ringwood rangers over the Richmond Tigers? NONE.
If anything Its the vicball folk in NSW/QLD that DESPRTELY seek Football/Leagues/Union folk to swap sides because there base in these markets are so small.
Again, I couldn’t give a fat rat’s clacker if alf/nrl wouldn’t take the slightest bit of interest in A-league Football. I would much rather spending time and money in convincing the 1Million in the Australian football family to support the HAL.
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Really?
So the campaign “It’s football but not as you know it” was just an advertisment about EPL versus A League. Funny I thought it was something else.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Hmm I guess different people see different things. I really didn’t see it as some sneaky plan to woo AFL fans, more a statement about our own game. But then I live in an area that doesn’t automatically see the word Football as “AFL” especially since the ad seems to be entirely about Futball and doesn’t feature bedazzled AFL players in the background
Perhaps “Doesn’t suck like the NSL” did poorly with the focus groups so they found a nicer way to say it.
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Oh it was definitely aimed at ‘AFL’ football fans in Melbourne. It was saying its football (soccer), but not as you know it (AFL).
part of the soccer to football transition, ASF to FFA ,etc.
There is no doubt futbol has a huge following around the country. The EPL and its predecessors have had fans for decades.
The shift in who is to be targetted reflects a failure to make the massive inroads expected.
A few on these forums have been hinting for a couple of years (right Pip, MC) that the mass conversion would never happen just because someone puts on a futbol match as if it’s superior to anything else we’ve followed previously.
Football DNA arguments aside, the same factor that binds AFL or NRL fan to their teams also binds an EPL fan. It goes beyond the just game itself and is also a tribal phenomen.
Redb
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
I see it playing out similar too say Tasmania getting an AFL team.
Most people in Tassie love AFL but they already have a team. Some instantly switched because they have wanted there own team for ages but there would still be a lot who sort of note this new team and perhaps it is their second team but they remain loyal. They may even go to the odd game if it doesn’t clash with St Kilda Playing the Hawks n TV.
As the team improves on the park they take more of an interest, especially when some Tassie kids come into the team, a Tassie kid win the rising star medal, they make the finals for the first time…. This goes on for years but Jim stays loyal to the Saints…. Then BAM he buys a season ticket for him and Jim Junior.
I think it’s realistic, and I definitely dont subscribe to the “mass conversion” ever occuring. I just want our own comp to compete with the J league.
Oh and I still think your seeing things that aren’t there in regards to the HAL ad, firstly it makes no sense to plan a national ad because there’s no substance other than the tag line that in anyway could be seen as relating to AFL, way too subtle if that’s the intent, nor is there a followup it just comes accross as a harmless tag line.
I saw it more like the old Rugby ad “you ain’t seen nothing yet”. I am sure some league fans got upset that such a phrase implied the game they were watching was less of a spectacle than Rugby but I doubt that was the real plan as they never followed it up with any propaganda to play into that.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Amen Steve
The HAL can grow gangbusters just by winning over futball fans back from European comp. Everyone not born in Britain or Italy who supports the EPL or Seria A is a target. Some will hold on for longer than others, but if we keep raising the standard on the field and increasing exposure each year then the promise of live football will win a lot of them over eventually.
Steve said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
You Know what I would do Roo,
Toronto FC have 25K season ticket holders. Every year the club has an exhibition game against an English/Euro/Sth American opposition. Only season ticket holders are able to attend these games. Last year was Boca Junior this year was…Real Madrid.
I would make it compulsory that any future tour by any Famous Football Club, be it Man U/Liverpool/ Barca ect. That only A-League Football Club Members [bad luck to the Family Members] be allowed to attend. At the very lest tickets’ be 50% less than what non-HAL members be would have to pay.You must reward your members in other ways so their are willing to part with their cash.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
That’s a fair idea. I dont think any of our clubs other than Victory have a huge membership but it would have been a great reward for Roar or GCU members to get cheaper tickets to Celtic and Fulham and there was plenty of space on the night.
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
This in relation to your Tassie line of argument is flawed mainly becuase, should Tassie get an AFL team, it WILL play in the AFL – - not just one off exhibition matches – - it WILL be there every week and contesting for the same main league trophy.
HAL teams as being competed with for affection with major Euro teams – suffer because they are a very far flung satellite competition, where, you might in some minor way get to touch greatness via a friendly or the like.
It would be more like telling Tassie to dump their mainland AFL teams and through total allegience behind the Under 18 team. Whilst nice in theory – - – it ain’t gonna happen!!!
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Touche
But there’s more to it because there is an aspirational element because the comp gets better every year. It took 4 seasons but I eventually stopped watching my EPL team all together, sorry former EPL Team.
The league also isn’t as bas as people make out. There are 150 players overseas but they’re not necessarily our best 150. A good chunk of them wouldn’t get a start in the A league.
Koala Bear said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
‘What with this “switch allegiance” garbage you vicball folk talk about.”
Steve,
I couldn’t agree with you more …. great post…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
David V. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Football has a long, long tradition in Japan, far longer than most here would realise. The game was always popular and had a good player base, but a development program and professionalism took much longer to arrive.
Japan did win the Bronze at the Mexico Olympics in 1968, but that team sadly never developed into a force even in Asian football (Australia topped the qualifying group for 1970, and went on to face Israel- who qualified for Mexico and and then draw with Italy!). It was then up to the importation of foreign influences and the export of Yasuhiko Okudera to Europe for Japan to embark on its rise, both occurring in the late 1970s.
These developments took time to bear fruit. Luckily for them, the 1986 Asian WC qualifiers were segregated into east and west zones, giving Japan a real chance to qualify, but in the final-play off against South Korea they were beaten at home in front of a large and ultimately heartbroken crowd, and the Koreans would be off to Mexico. They made their first Asian Cup in 1988 (the first time they even took that tournament seriously), and then won it four years later. And the rest, they say, is history. Japan won 3 out of 4 Asian Cups.
That’s what I call measured progress.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
It does feel at times like we are just considered walking $$. The FFA have done a lot for us as there are now more Socceroo games to watch and such.
But I used to pay less to watch the Socceroos play NZ in a world cup qualifier from side on (only 8 or 9 years ago) than I do to watch the Roar from behind the goal.
I know that’s due to supply and demand as I definitely don’t think the low ticket prices were because Soccer Australia loved us …. Just venting.
chris said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
I think expansion is right – it is just that the Hearts Decision is wrong….very wrong
The owner of one franchise also sponsors another WTF???
the question remains – with 10 months to go, where will this team get their fans from
I think it is safe to assume that their base will be existing Victory fans with corp packages for the ground
If so the FFA have got it wrong as they have missed an opportunity to win new fans to the game and opted to get more money from existing fans – this is not a sustainable model
The Hearts are not a differentiator to the Victory – it takes more than a color change – it has to be a cultural one where a rivalry can be built a sustained
Killer_Tomatoes said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
for what it’s worth, Mirrabella no longer sponsors MVFC, and Palmer is also the sponsor of North Queensland, so yeah, sentiment was right, facts and locations were wrong
David V. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
The reason such a team cannot work in Melbourne is simple. Melbourne Victory are a unifying force and social equaliser, much like Melbourne’s AFL culture is. It’s a radically different environment in Sydney, where people are far more closely tied to their suburban areas and there is a more us v them mentality among those living in the city.
Gibbo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
maybe when they changed queensland roar’s name they should have also changed the “roar” part… lame.
Brian Munich said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
There’s also the Foxtel factor. With the games per week going from 4 to 5 to 6, there’ll be more games for the punters at less traditional times to ensure no overlap for the TV schedule.
In Melbourne I think there’s been a distinct impact from the AFL overlap. It’s telling when you’re tailing behind cars that have a MV sticker next to their AFL club sticker.
The incidence of Thursday night games hasn’t helped, with another tonight against Newcastle, who are a lot harder to hate since the Griffiths brothers moved on. The prospect of them lining up against a Hernandez-less (and Muscat-less) Vicotry is of marginal appeal. And for a season-ticket holder such as myself, with more home games under an expanded league there’s a greater tendency to give the occasional fixture a miss.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Steve
It might make you feel better throwing around idiotic terms like Vicball and eggball, but it doesn’t cover up the fact that a lot of your thoughts are based on pissant metrics.
For starters, half of all Victory members are AFL members, now if you and Fos can insult them often enough, they’ll be only too happy to stop spending their money on a club that’s been around for five mintues.
All of a sudden, a pissant crowd of 18,000 becomes and even more pissant crowd of 9,000.
As for the broader football family, I happen to be quite familiar with it. I’m actually part of it because of both my Victory membership and the fact that I coach an U8 team.
As it happens, all the parents of this U8 team are recent arrivals from other countries: UK, Serbia, Germany, etc, and are very keen soccer fans – but it’s all old firm, top 4, Bundesliga, Partizan, etc, etc.
Mention the A-League to any of them and they look at you blankly.
But go to other U8 teams, and it’s even worse than that – the parents aren’t the least bit interested in soccer full stop – it’s all NRL, AFL, etc.
Three years I’ve spent at one of the biggest junior soccer clubs in Australia and I have not seen one single A-League shirt worn by anyone – ever, ie the kids have zero interest in the A-League.
Ok – so we want to get all those people who follow the EPL religiously – but how many of them are there? Check the Fox ratings – bugger all!!!
Just because all your mates do something, don’t fall into the trap into thinking that the rest of Australia does it as well.
Let us all be reminded that in NSW, soccer has had the largest participation rate since the 1930s.
People like to imagine that NRL is much stronger because of soccer’s poor marketing, or poor adminstration or this and that – but they always miss the real reason – League is much stronger in terms of overall interest because it just is. There’s no logic, there’s no magical formula, it’s one of those things that just is.
When something is so ingrained and rusted on, a bit of scrubbing on the outer does very, very little.
Let’s all accept now that soccer is the greatest game in the universe – but so what? Beta was better than VHS as well.
So you can throw insults at everyone and other codes – but it doesn’t actually change the reality and the facts of the matter.
As for 42,000 watching Juve at the Dome – so what – in 1984 I was part of a 50,000+ crowd that watched Juve play Australia at the MCG – I went with a bunch of people that had neer seen a soccer game, and never saw another one again.
That’s something that you and Fos fail to comprehend – expose an Australian to a soccer game – and they’re just as likely to be turned off forever as become a fan.
People on this site sometimes talk as if something is happening for the very first time – but it’s all bull shit – there ain’t all that much that has actually changed.
For instance, around 1974/75 I could watch Victorian soccer on FTA, yes that’s right, 35 years ago, I was watching Victorian soccer on a commercial FTA. Remarkable isn’t it??!!
The 1 and Only Master said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
PIP
SPOT ON ! AGAIN
dasilva said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Interesting rant Pip
Though don’t you think a bit harsh on Steve
He did call it AFL egg ball but that wasn’t his argument
His argument was that Football don’t have to worry about AFL and doesn’t have to be so competitive and shouldn’t focus in converting AFL fans into Football. His main point was that the focus of FFA should be converting football fans into A-league fans.
Seem a pretty reasonable comment even if you think that statement is wrong (Although from the statistic you give about MV members perhaps it’s easier to get AFL supporters to support the a-league then to get european football supporters/or NSL supporters to support the A-league)
The egg ball comment was a throw away (and unnecessary) line at the beginning and it was only used by Steve to criticise the seige mentality that some fans of other codes that Football is out to get on their turf when FFA are really just trying to get Football fans to follow A-League and Socceroos
I have a feeling that you two agree more then you think and you just reacted negatively to the eggball vicball insult line.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Pip, there is a reason for everything, as I am sure you will agree. There is no “just is”. What we are talking about here are cultural traditions, and cultural traditions do change – in fact change is the only constant – but it takes a long time. 20 to 50 to 100 years, whatever. My experience with junior football mirrors yours – virtually zero A-League awareness. It will take a long time to change this and I do not believe it will ever change without FTA television. Put it on Fox and for most people it is out of sight, out of mind, end of story.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Our loveable Sheffielder, who has now departed the Roar, made the observation that it might all have been a wee bit easier if it had happened in the late 1800s.
So when I say it just is, I’m referring to the fact that it has always been thus.
Once that allegiance is in place – it is very, very hard to dislodge.
Realfootball said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Agree. There have been some wildly unrealistic expectations flying around.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
das
This is how Steve opened up his comment:
“What with this “switch allegiance” garbage you vicball folk talk about.
The numbers in the FOOTBALL Family in Australia s#$’s on the vicball family. ”
So first point – who is actually making the rant? Whose comments are actually based on reality and real numbers?
Why is this “switching allegiance garbage” of interest only to Victorians? I’m actually talking about the majority of Australians when you look at the two main comps that are each over 100 years old that cover the whole of Australia.
And do the “numbers in the FOOTBALL Family in Australia s#$’s on the vicball family”??
I tell you what folks, when I look at the numbers with dollar signs before them, the opposite is true.
But if you want to believe this fairy land stuff – please, by all means.
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
pip,
sticks and stones, they’re getting desperate these A League urgers.
Bulldogs have a BIG game on the BIG stage that’s all that counts.
Redb
dasilva said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
yeah there is some inflammatory comments about AFL no doubt
but I still think some of the response was disproportionate to what Steve was saying. You are pretty much trying to go on about how Football isn’t as strong as people think it is and that AFL and NRL are much more popular then A-league and trying to downplay the recent popularity with football.
Fair enough if you think that is true. However none of Steve’s comment about how great and popular A-league is and at worst (the comment “The numbers in the FOOTBALL Family in Australia s#$’s on the vicball family.”) was about how the participation numbers of football is greater then other football codes. He is therefore concluding that the key to success is that we need to get football fans which are many (judging by participation numbers) to support the A-league. It was certainly wasn’t a Craig Foster like, how great football is, we are going to dominate Australia type comment. It was mostly reasonable comment with some unnecessary inflammatory insult at the beginning.
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
It is possible that NSWRL/NRL is as popular as it is because until recently it was owned by the proprietors of Channel 9, News Limited, Fox Sports and Optus (whilst it existed), and was given saturation coverage on the eastern seaboard to both grow and protect the investments they made? Before that Queenslanders at least, used to turn up with maybe 5000 other people to watch Wally Lewis et. al go around for Wynnum Manly in a small suburban ground at Wondall, (a suburb only slightly bigger than the football ground that probably had significantly less than 5000 residents).
It will eventually happen with football for the same reasons. SBS has announced that it has already taken in over 20m in sponsorship and advertising fees for the next world cup – serious bickies. The next TV A-league TV contract will also be significantly bigger than the last and will probably involve free to air coverage, which will lead to proprietors talking up the A-league to protect their investment.
Vicentin said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
Pip, I did think that it was a bit disingenuous not to mention in your rant that while you may have your Melbourne Victory memberships etc you live in a country town in the southern half of NSW …. while this lack of interest may be the case for a large number of rural areas around Australia most of the population lives in cities that actually have an A-League team. Your example of zilch interest is not replicated in my world of Inner Western Sydney. I see more A-League shirts and those of Euro teams than I do Balmain NRL jerseys for instance despite being in that club’s supposed heartland. Yes some kids will play football in the morning and see a League, AFL or Union (most likely for those I know) in the evening but I run into plenty of them at the SFS when Sydney play too.
I’ve been watching football in this area for nearly forties years and there is definitely change happening in the local sporting landscape …no one is going to be definitive winner but I can see the numbers changing and if there’s a bit more more money and interest thrown at the code by media and business the change will be significant. The fortunes of the Socceroos at next years World Cup could have huge positive ramifications for the code – I hope FFA is ready to take advantage of the opportunity. Cheers
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
am I the only one ranting??
md said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
Obviously. Is it because the victory suck this year Pip?
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
Actually, I would have thought that for most of the first half against Perth, we played the most attractive, enterprising and attacking football seen all year, alas only one goal came from it.
Did anyone see the opening Perth goal, in particular, the free kick that was given??? Someone tackles Celeski from behind, and the free goes against Celeski!!!!
Has anyone worked that one out yet.
Did anyone hear what Breeze said to Costanzo – don’t try that Melbourne thing – a ref telling a player who has never played with Melbourne to not try that Melbourne thing – as I once wrote – the refs have always treated Melbourne with extreme prejudice, and that’s concrete proof.
Vicentin said | September 2nd 2009 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Probably not, but your excelling in it. Well done.
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
md, Rugby League was massive in NSW and QLD 90 years before News became involved in the game and will be for the forseeable future after they leave.
Good luck to football, but please don’t make it out like the success of RL is some media conspiracy, it is not.
Steve said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Pippinu
You lost me at ‘It’
Midfielder said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
It’s very simple .. football needs to expand to get the Asian spots in the ACL … what footballs new backers want is connections into Asia and the Middle East…
Koala Bear said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Middie,
spot on, 4 ACL spots, mean more sponsors, more money, more entertaining football, against the elite of Asia … We saw what the J-League clubs can bring to Australian Football … I will be out there at Fortress Miron to watch the GCU against the best J-League clubs now that I have a taste of live football on the GC…
~~~~~
KB
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
I didn’t know the term Eggball was insulting.
If the AFL’s push into QLD and NSW is successful you better get used to terms like Vicball being used more often whenever one of our players are suspended. And when is the grand final going to be at Homebush?
Sometimes I am not sure if AFL fans know what there getting into with these expansion plans.
Perhaps the people of Melbourne will look back on this time as a golden age before the “bloody northerners” got on board
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Whatever your on i’ll take half a kilo
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
I’m sorry but I just had visions of if the AFL ever became the number one code in Sydney….and I don’t think AFL fans would like it
I am sure that Western Australians and South Australians had some teething problems when they joined up with the old VFL/AFL magnify that by 1000. Just imagine if 3 million Sydney folk decided to switch over….. they wouldn’t be very accepting of just beeing told “that’s how it is”.
And we are not learning our club song that is for sure.
You would all be thankful for when AFL was hardly covered by the Daily Telegraph.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
When I talk about strong allegiances to 100 year old clubs, I’m including the NRL in that as well.
At no stage was I referring solely to Australian Football (although some appear to want to focus on that).
Luke W said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Pip, I consider myself a passionate supporter of the Newcastle United Jets, complete with membership, jersey, scarf and attending 9 out of 10 home games last year when they collected the wooden spoon. But you have shown me the light! I am going to denounce this four year old club and join Collingwood Magpies or South Sydney Rabbitohs because of their long and illustrious history!
Please get over yourself. Yes, a football clubs history is important, but the present and future are even more so.
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
Luke W,
Good for you. No-one in their right mind would pick Collingwood anyway, your far better off without them
of course I would warn you off Cartlon with extreme gusto as well.
red and black.
Redb
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
There is much disrespect for the national game expressed in the Roar, and it probably tells us something.
Otherwise, everyone has a right to daydream.
Luke W said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
There is some disrespect, maybe because at times the Australian football fans on this site talk with the same “zealotry” that us football fans supposedly do (although I’m sure we will all concede KB actually is a zealot, or at least Fos in disguise). Yes, Australian football is the oldest and most attended/supported sport in the land, but this doesn’t grant it instant access to other sporting areas of Australia, nor the mantle of Australia’s national sport.
But please don’t take this as a shot against Australian football, I enjoy it as a code, but I am defending my preferred code here.
dasilva said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
If you ever wonder why there is hostility amongst some segments of football fans towards AFL and other codes. Here is why
Until very recently, it was not uncommon in the past for journalist to write articles disparaging the legitimacy of the game football itself . there were people who wanted football to fail in Australia and celebrate whenever we shoot ourselves in the foot.
There were times when even admitting you are a football fan, you are then force to defend your interest (you generally get comments like, that game is boring or there’s hardly any goals etc almost immediately after you tell them you like this game)
So now that football has at least some degree of legitimacy in the mainstream society. Now it has some success to celebrate.
We now see some football fans want to “pay back” and give people taste of their own medicine and hence that’s why there is open hostility amongst some football fans and why there is open insults.
My opinion
a) forgive and forget. Past football haters are welcome to join the bandwagon.
b) Not every fan of opposing code was involved in mudslinging in the past
and
c) Football in Australia isn’t popular enough to be completely arrogant about it.
Nevertheless, I do understand why there are some fans who harbour some resentment for other codes.
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
‘Egg ball’…..vs soccer as ’round ball’,
reality, ‘egg’ is not a perfect oval/ellipsoid.
All the codes are ’round ball’, and soccer is ’spheroid’ ball.
reality though – - the manner of delivery, I’d say, indicated a certain lack of respect. Wouldn’t you?
btw – ever noticed how the Victorian based Cricket Australia always flies up to Sydney to make major announcements. It avoids a whole ‘Vicball’ style ‘reaction’.
AFL GF at Homebush – according to Barassi, only once 3 or 4 teams have been going good in Syndey for about 20-30 years. (odds on that??). But, in reality, when is Homebush going to be 100K permanently and develop a bit of ‘class/atmosphere’?? Or, when will it be in the interest of Mike Fitzpatrick that Homebush hosts it??
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
True enough about the delivery.
I was really just having a laugh. It just struck me that it would be interesting the politics involved if Sydney did embrace the game.
I am sure if AFL was more popular in Sydney they would start pushing for a GF, and the TV companies might be on their side.
I know such a move would be seen as sacrilige by exisiting fans. Just like in Rugby League the thought of giving the Grand Final to Brisbane (much closer to happening).
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
I was of on a Vicball tangent sorry Pip.
I do agree with Steve but like Dasilva I dont really see a disagreement between his position and yours.
But I think we are all surprised by your 50% stat.
I always thought that the HAL only really benefited by the AFL/NRL season ending because it gets more coverage as theres less news to report. Didn’t realise there was sucha crossover of support.
nath said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Here are a couple of ideas i had to connect the Roar with the local commnity. In fact these could potentially work with any club.
Idea 1 – Whether it be a junior or senior registration with Football QLD they should be given a discount voucher for a Roar membership. Even if it’s 25% it’s still better than nothing!!
On top of that they could half a 50% discount to the pre season friendly (ie roar vs celtic). At least this would guarantee a full house!
I think someone had mentioned this in a previous comment.
Idea 2 – Similiar to what Everton and some European clubs do is retire the number 12 shirt and dedicate it to the fans!
The membership could be called the 12th fan (instead of man, being politically correct and all!!) and this would entitle the member to a guaranteed seat in the home end only and a Roar jersey with the number 12 on the back as well as the members name on it!
This would not only give the member value for money but it would also increase shirt sales!!
The 12th fan club could have a designated meeting place ie the Caxton Hotel where they could have a bbq and drinks before the game!!
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
How the f#$k did AFL get onto this blog??
Isnt there enough for AFL lovers to talk about on their own blogs??
MC l’ll blame you for 1st mentioning AFL?
Pip
Get off your high horse man! A few people have visions of football in Oz getting bigger and you’re apoplectic!!
This post is about HAL and its expansion…for my 2 bobs worth 12 teams and then give the competition time to settle in.
Melbourne Victory will turn into one of the biggest sporting clubs in Oz within a couple of decades. Heart have a big job ahead of them to gain traction but if it can be done anywhere it will be in Melbourne. A new stadium to play in next season and MV will be playing to crowds and in a stadium many Euro teams will be envious of. Heart can walk straight in on the deal…lucky them! They will reap the benefit of MVs work in the first 5 years of HAL. No doubt some MV and general football fans will watch Heart initially but it will be the non committed fan that needs to be won over.
Western Sydenee is a gimme for a team…it will be up to those in charge to make sure it works. Must have a great chance.
We are 4 weeks in and the doomsayers from other codes have lunged in boots flying trying to paint a picture of doom annd gloom and l bet some are hoping that HAL falls over…well too bad guys HAL is here to stay and will be all the stronger for the teething problems that occur with 1st up expansion.
The fact is l can enjoy the best of both worlds…the EPL (and any other o/s game that takes my fancy) and then go to live action at HAL, Socceroos, NYL, ACL, Asian Cup etc…well and truly my cup runneth over and l have never been more interested nor enjoyed football as much as l do now.
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
MVDave – sadly, when I stuck to the topic, I was ignored. Then along came Pip and Steve and …… woosh, incendiary bombs from 20,000 feet……
(btw – I didn’t even get any takers on my crowd analysis to end Round 4 – might need to put in an article — as I remind that my scientifically sound estimations last year for the HAL proved on the money, whilst Jimbo ended up 200K out on his AFL predicitons by failing to use a sound scientific model!!!)
….however, it’s still a fine line – - in that apparently all the problems now are due to AFL and NRL overlap.
So, how can that be a secure environment to expands teams 11 and 12 as 2nd teams into AFL heartland and NRL heartland respectively?? ANd extend the season over all?? It’s a gamble. But, it’s all a gamble.
onside said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:14pm | Report comment
Re Brisbane and GCU
Another seemingly insignifant thing that could influence a few supporters.
The Gateway bridge is in the guts of the Brisbane linking North with South
.Its the main highway down to the Gold Coast and beyond or conversely
up to the Sunshine Coast(where I live)and beyond..It used to cost $2.50
or something each way ,a couple of coins in the tin toll system.The QLD
govt. has introduced an E Toll system.It now costs $7.50 for a return trip .
But wait a minute ,it gets worse.You either buy the E Pass tags online,if
you use the Gateway regularly,or you spend sometime on the computer,
if you have one,paying for a return trip by credit card..I know this is the
way of the world ,but its a bit of fuss if all you want to do is cross a bridge
to watch a footy match.The huge BP service station at Caboolture sells
the passes.Otherwise I struggle to get to Lennox Head to see my grandkids.
There you have it. At this stage I have to REGISTER my car at the Caboolture
servo to cross the bridge. Intersate tourists heading north will get a nice
‘hows your father’ when they return home from a holiday up north. I am
sorry for writing what must be the dullest post this year,but this brand
new system (tax) must effect some people .There are alternatives, like
spending ages in the traffic ,stuttering your way through old city roads
Suddenly Fox sports aint so shabby.
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:17pm | Report comment
And we lost our petrol subsidy!!!
Hasn’t hurt the other codes though
chook said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
The optimum viewing for A- League matches is Friday or Saturday eveing. 3pm and 5pm games are not a good idea. Mainly because of people are still playing themselves.
The Brisbane Roar have 5 out of 8 games are home in August and September which, both the Lions and Broncos are in the finals and will effect crowd numbers. The Brisbane public is really league centric and will be hard to get head lines and coverage for this time of the season. The times for the roar are all in the afternoon for the 5 games exept the GCU game.
Last year figures are as follows
Round 1
08 – 09 13318
09 -10 13637
Round 2
08 – 09 9669
09 -10 12130
Round 3
08 – 09 13584
09 -10 9153
Round 4
08 – 09 12869
09 -10 8672
There are some serious problems here are I going the leaning of the FFA to have more matches in the afternoon instead of evening whilst last year and this year break up of eveing to afternoon game is 50% – 50%.
But my thing keep the comp going no matter if we get 5000 a game it will grow and will be supported give it 20 years. It wont be big a league or AFL but Im expecting
True Tah said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
I dont get the argument that because AFL and NRL still have their seasons running the HAL will have smaller crowds – is that saying that people who have a HAL and an AFL/NRL side prefer their NRL side? There are well over 2 million registered futbol players in this country, if you got over 15% of them attending HAL games that would be massive crowds every week.
I believe a few of the HAL clubs could really learn a lot from their NRL/AFL counterparts in engaging with juniors. NRL clubs gives juniors free access to a limited number of games each season. Having said that, I cannot imagine someone like Clive Palmer (with an ego to match his waist size) would be prepared to admit that their club copied something from what they consider an insular code.
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
True Tah,
I don’t disagree with, the A-League clubs have alot to learn from their AFL especially / NRL counterparts. This is why there is afew ex AFL adminstrators involved in Football. Let’s not pick on Gold Coast, this is a new club, it will take time. But in Clive Palmer they have a media machine, love him or hate him.
As some of our AFL boggers on the football forums always mention, it’s got to have history & steep in it.
I admit when SFC won the first championship, was I over the moon as my club had achieved something for the first time n 30 years or something unique, No it was a sureal feeling, what have we won? But as time goes on now & we have not won in 4 seasons, if & when we do achieve it again, I think my feelings will be alot stronger as my affection on the club grows.
This is the thing about history, today is tomorrow’s history as much as what was 100 years ago. But as yesterday gets older the more steep in history it will be.
But as I keep saying it’s not that the Australian population will change allegience en masse overnight, but that in 20 years time, those same 2 million fusbol fans would have grown up knowing SFC as a viable team, who they have followed for the last 20 years, as opposed to some new entity as some of the current 2 million fusbol fan, who is already following the Magpies or the Roosters.
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
Well said Robbos…keep up the good work!!
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
There’s every chance of that happening.
By the way – who are the AFL boggers?
Robbos said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
You know them Pip, they are on the Football forums, the Rugby forums, the Rugby League forums
preaching the ‘Great Australian Game’ to us uneducated, misguided northerners.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:28pm | Report comment
Are there AFL boggers on the rugby forums?
Michael C said | September 3rd 2009 @ 6:23am | Report comment
It fits with mono-sport cultured folk that they struggle if they can’t pigeon hole everybody into a single sports category.
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
FFAhave structured the early season draw to avoid clashes with AFL/NRL games as much as possible…hence MV have 2 of their first 3 home games midweek Thursday night which apart from bein a school night is also a training night for the vast majority of Juniors and Senior clubs. That coupled with virtually no media means the attendances are lower than they will be later on in the season…MV have more signed members than attended their last home game (nearly 19,000 members).
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:23pm | Report comment
It’s still bloody crazy that less will turn up than the number of season tickets sold – especially when it’s the start of a new season to defend our title.
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
Expect the crowd tomorrow night to be similar to the first 2 games…certainly will be different next season with the new stadium as there will be no need to play Thursday nightsfor a start and hopefully many of the fan/ground management issues will no longer exist. The game will be played in an appropriate rectangular stadium and that will also make a big difference. No excuses for 18,000 crowds next season.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
The season may be longer next season – so there might in fact be more Thursday night games (for someone).
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:47pm | Report comment
Yes but they will more likely be scheduled in the summer months and school holidays. 6 games per round next season but there will be several midweek rounds (just one this season) and these will be in December/Jan/Feb. l would predict 1-2 games Friday nights, 2-3 games Sat evening/night and 2-3 games Sunday afternoon/twilight. There will be a few Thursday/Monday night games but mostly early on in the season IMO to avoid AFL/NRL clashes.
Koala Bear said | September 2nd 2009 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
Luke W,
the truth is I can’t really be a Zealot as I make all my comments on the Football thread… I’m not sure if you have noticed but all of my comments are confined to the Football thread these days and purposely so… I’m only an actor playing the part given to me by our resident Grooky Zealot friends and Directors, Michael C and Pippi boy, who write these parts for me on the Football thread… Don’t be fooled by the Zealot label they write for me … quite the contrary … it’s their way to add their colour to the Football thread… to tell us all, where we are going wrong, what we should think, what we should do, and what we should call our great Australian game “sokkah” never Football, or Australian Football.. They will never allow us to call the great world game “Football” in Australia, if we let them have their way… Or to have a true Australian Football culture, no matter how much we wish for one…
Now the truth (believe it or not) I was once a follower of Carlton FC, admittedly at an arms length, and had a great respect for the code and club and actually played a few social games with friends and associates when I was a youth… My late next door neighbour, CRSL Director, and cherished friend, a WWII vet who was an avid Collingwood supporter as his father before him also a Gallipoli veteran … My neighbour Bert had never been to a Football match in his life, or seen a football game even on TV until I moved in next door to him on the Gold Coast…
I had introduced him to the round ball code and Viduka… I told him he was the Australian Socceroo’s captain and a Collingwood supporter and played for the Newcastle united FC in a Collingwood black and white EPL jersey… We had fun whilst he was alive, a wonderful friend, who had an open mind and thick skin, who loved a bit of humour and friendly banter… He really became a fan of the Australian Captain that he didn’t even know was a Melburnian …
But all of that has past and I have lost interest for the Grooky game courtesy of our Grooky Zealots who turn every blog whether it be Football, League, or Rugby into an AFL discussion and attract other Grooky Zealots in the forum of likes of “The 1 Master etc” to a football discussion, pretty much sick of it…
I am very happy to respond to sane League posters (Norm and Westy) as I am also a NRL advocate and once time supporter of the Newtown Blue Bags ARL days as my older Brothers were. I now support the Rabbitohs and the Gold Coast Titans and was recently at the skilled stadium with my son for the fixture…
The only respect I have for those from south of the Murray these days who reside in Melbourne are MVDave and Art Sapphire both have a good sense of humour and a thick skin … In saying that, I am stating to warm to Redb as well, at least we can have some friendly banter tho his code is Grooky…
So am I a Football Zealot…? No not really, love the game as much as Johnny Warren, but the Zealot label is only the part I play given to me by Grooky Zealots, Pippi boy and MC, the Director’s of the Roar blog theatre sideshow and Grooky land…. Enjoy the show… and long live Malcolm X (the Foz) five star general of Timmy’s Army…
~~~~~~
KB
MVDave said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Thanks for the mention KB…you’re not too bad even for a Chelski/GCU/SFC supporter!!!
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Yeh, but let us also remember that you are so obnoxious that even football fans like Vicentin can’t stand your guts.
Norm said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
good post KB
Art Sapphire said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
Thanks KB for realising that there are beacons of hope in Victoristan
I resisited commenting on this thread because I can’t see the point of Adrian writing a piece like this so early in the season.
Couldn’t he and everyone else wait until Round 12?
Everyone is blowing their load way too early.
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:18am | Report comment
KB,
your making me cry
Redb
Koala Bear said | September 3rd 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Good…
~~~~~~~~
KB
jimbo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
Expansion is the right policy but it was the wrong teams in the wrong order.
Western Sydney and a second Melb team have a much bigger population and fan base and they should have been given the nod first.
Qld didn’t need 2 more A-League teams starting at once and it has severely impacted the Roar, who bear the biggest brunt of the A-League crowd decline so far.
And these are franchises not FFA paid for expansion, so the investors bear the financial losses not the FFA.
The central polit bureau of the AFL and NRL choose and pay for the new teams and they throw a lot more media and advertising dollars at it, compared to some of the almost non-existing advertising done by A-League clubs.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
Jimbo
you know the FFA didn’t have much choice about the order (of expansion) because each club had an exclusivity agreement for their city for a full five years (which was fair enough under the circumstances).
Anyway, here we are into the 5th season, and Hearts remains a bit of a mystery, and the WS decision has been postponed yet again – so while there is some sense in what you say about Melb/Syd being more preferred than the two expansion clubs – could it have happened in reality?
jimbo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Pip,
good point and thanks for reminding me about the one team one city policy for the first 5 years.
In some ways though, I’m glad we have 2 new teams and I look forward to seeing Fowler playing at SFS.
In hindsight, nobody at FFA would have anticipated the impacts on Brisbane, which is already in financial trouble and partly owned by the FFA. Those small crowds in a big and expensive stadium must be hurting financially.
Midfielder said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:04pm | Report comment
Sometimes you need to hold your nerve and understand there are greater things at play…
To do this you need a strong belief akin to faith in your leadership…
Under Frank Lowy stewardship football has come a long long long way… I believe Frank knows what he is doing and has built an impressive leadership group around him… I have faith in Frank because of his past record in both Business and his management of Football to date…
If Frank says we need 12 teams and has a timetable .. I assume there is a very good reason… that I can only guess the reason does not change that I either have faith in Franks judgement or expect Frank to lay out in great detail his plan… I have faith in Franks judgement…
Have Frank & FFA made mistakes … a few and some quite bad… the initial treatment of Perth Glory by JON & Matthew Carroll was very poor … the current issue pertaining to FFA controlled teams, the past treatment of Home Ends, changes to starting times seems not to be working…. But the pluses well out number the negatives and my guess is FFA are learning from their mistakes…
Why Frank wants and is driving for expansion is for us to guess … only a handful would know… my guess is has a lot to do with the next media deal & the world cup bid, recognition by influenceal business and government folk of Asia. Whatever the reason I trust Frank knows what he is doing and have faith that he has plans in place…
In closing if Frank says go with 12 .. then 12 it shall be…
jimbo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
True Tah,
interest in football and participation in sport is not the issue – football has the biggest in that regard.
The problem is that the vast majority of people who follow football, have an interest in it or play it, have never seen or probably won’t ever go to an A-League game in the next 20 years.
That has always been the major issue facing the sports governing body and there are a number of reasons for it, as mentioned in other blogs.
The competition from all the other sport at this time of year is a factor, but its not just competition from other codes, its competition from our own code played in so many places around the world, the fact that the vast majority of our best football players don’t play in the A-League and the amount of revenue the A-League generates and so on.
If you look at A-League attendances as a percentage of the number of people who play or follow the sport it would easily be the lowest of any of the football codes.
Midfielder said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
MVDave
You said some time back …”"” We are 4 weeks in and the doomsayers from other codes have lunged in boots flying trying to paint a picture of doom annd gloom and l bet some are hoping that HAL falls over”"”"”"”"……. history repeating itself last year the same bloggers giving the same reasons and WOW we are expanding to 12 teams..
Read my post above Jimbo’s .. In Obie Wan we have something very special… just hope he can hang around for another 6 or 7 years and really bed down Football..
dasilva said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
Well after this doom and gloom article
we need some good news
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/111615,australia-up-to-14th–official.aspx
Australia are now rank 14th in the World coming up two places.
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
14th – that’s a bloody high ranking – well done to Pim and the Socceroos.
Mr said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:35am | Report comment
We’re in some pretty illustrious company at this altitude. The move to Asia has worked out so well to date. A shout out also to Uncle Frank and Mr Buckley on the choice of Verbeek in 2007. I’m not so sure Advocaat would have given the same return.
Mr said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:41am | Report comment
So Meissner has pulled out, shortening the odds on Canberra and a scramble for funding for the Neill backed bid out of Parramatta. Is that a collective sigh of relief I hear from those that remember Love Boat?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/western-sydney-out-of-race/2009/09/02/1251570753528.html?page=fullpage
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:06am | Report comment
I always had trouble picturing the Meissner bid as being serious.
Canberra is in the box seat and has significant Government backing – but let’s be honest – the FFA really, really wants a team in West Sydney.
If the FFA were to let Canberra in as the 12th, and the number was to remain stable for a few years, it would not be an ideal outcome for the FFA.
True Tah said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Pip – what do you mean government backing for the Canberra team, as in the Federal Government being an owner in the side, using taxpayer funds to pay professional athletes? I thought Lowy’s goal was to NOT rely on government handouts.
The fact that there is unlikely to be a Western Sydney side in the HAL is a travesty.
Robbos said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
TT,
This is not the Federal government!!!!! It’s the local government in Canberra.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
It’s the Territory government to be exact – which is a State/Local hybrid.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
TT
Here is an announcement straight from the horse’s mouth:
http://www.chiefminister.act.gov.au/media.php?v=7601&m=49
I don’t know the exact details, but I think the ACT Govt also provides a good deal of financial support to both the Raiders and the Brumbies.
People have to appreciate that while Canberra has the highest per capita income in the land, it has little in the way of big business, and certainly nothing in the league of a Clive Palmer or Frank Lowy.
After years of success, the Raiders and Brumbies still struggle to attract the big corporate dollars, and I would think that an A-League team would fall in the same category.
This is not having a go at anyone or any game, it’s the nature of Canberra as a city and sporting market.
If money is tight in terms of private sector financing – the $2.5 mill from the ACT Government might look pretty attractive.
Canberra also boasts a very good venue which needs more sporting product to make it financially viable.
Midfielder said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment
The unwritten words read to me New Football has rules and special rules for Old Soccer… Also maybe SFC had a chat to JM and said pull out and we will back your bid next time …
To delay a WS bid with media deals and the WC bid coming up … big big story … and I have no doubt a WS team well run would change the face of sport in Australia …
Would mean in 2011 teams 13 & 14…as well I think ….
HMMMMMmmmmmmmm……… the plot thickens…
Koala Bear said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Good morning lads,
thanks for those replies, but this one is for Pippi Boy… Pippi I’m not sure what Vicentin’s problem is if he indeed hates my guts as you say…? I did apologise for my bad behaviour towards him long ago and for the misunderstanding… I guess he just likes to discuss Football with the likes of your kind (arse lickers) I’m not about to do so, and not in the least worried about it… A word of advice tho Pippi Boy, don’t put your tongue too far up he may just pull in his cheeks and you will be caught, with no where to go … like a few posts back … ah, ah, the life of an arse licker can leave you with a bad taste in your mouth….
~~~~~~~
KB
Vicentin said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Geez, and I was just going to let it go through to the keeper….
Koala Bear said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
No worries Vicentin, I didn’t think for one moment you hated my guts….
Glad to admit I was wrong about Kossie … We have a good manager now…. 
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
I didn’t say he hates your guts, I said he can’t stand your guts – there’s a subtle difference – and on the hatred scale, it’s at least one notch down.
Koala Bear said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Pippi boy, you’re really sounding like a jilted lover….
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Brett McKay said | September 3rd 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Pip, you’re pretty right there. From memory the ACT Govt (not Federal, TT) pledged the $2.5M support for the Canberra bid, and this pledge formed part of the inital $6M capital required. ACT govt does provide limited support to the Brumbies and Raiders (and indeed, other major sports including ACT Cricket and PM’s XI), but we’re only talking a few hundred thousand each.
Canberra hosts the Central Coast-Perth game tomorrow night, and I ‘ve got to say the promotoion of the game has been staggering, more than the Brumbies or Raiders usually do, and LIGHT YEARS more than the ARU put up for the Wallabies-Italy Test in June. Currently, the A-League is all over radio, tv, buses, and even a two- or three-storey banner on one side of the shopping centre carpark in the City (featuring No.21 for the ‘Coast, pity his name isn’t mentioned).
The CC also play Adelaide Utd on Oct 31 in Canberra. Crowds for both these games, plus the AFC qualifer back in March (a tick over 20K from memory) will undoubtedly make or break the Canberra bid…
True Tah said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Brett
did the Canberra franchise end up getting the required $6m private equity funding?
I think it sums up the ARU’s approach to marketing in generally, still impressed they got 22k to the Italy test though.
Brett McKay said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Tah, judging by reporting today that Canberra was the only other bid to pass FFA due dilligence, I’d have to assume so. Aside from the ACT Govt money (which is some of the better spent Govt money in recent years here), the other main contributor is ACTEW-AGL, who are the public/private utilites company for the ACT region. They also have internet, mobile, and pay-TV (TransAct) arms to their business model, and are probably as close as the ACT gets to having a Clive Palmer or Frank Lowy. The Canberra bid chief also happens to be the CEO for ACTEW-AGL.
The other thing they did initailly – and I don’t know if they hit their target or not – was to get one thousand “foundation” members willing to part with $200 each, to raise (add two, carry the….) $200K toward the bid. They’ve always been very confident about the bid, and it appears to be paying off.
Of course, should they get the nod, my fear is that they’ll face the same problem that generally plagues the Raiders – why would an Aloisi or Thompson or Griffiths or whoever come to Canberra when they could live the high life in ?? That is going to be their biggest challenge, without a shadow of a doubt…
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 9:47am | Report comment
I want a bid in Western Sydney but not an under financed one. I would prefer they give it to Canberra now than a team that will struggle.
Neil’s bid is the one I hope wins because it will be playing out of Parramatta stadium but if they dont have the money give it to Canberra.
Realfootball said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
The driver for expansion is to have 12-14 teams in the League and maximum geographical coverage in time for the hard bargaining on the next tv rights contract. This is not conjecture, folks. This is the deal. This is why there is such a drive for Western Sydney. It’s about tv demographics. Two million people. It will make a big difference in the negotations. Expect the FFA to pull out all the stops to get a team out there, even if it means going to 13 or 14 teams the following season.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Like all regional teams they might have to pay a premium for established players but kids don’t care. A chance at the A league and they would be prepared to move to Alice Springs.
Which is why I thought Fury should have made the effort to get there NYL team in the comp this year.
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Agree Realfootball,
We must move agressively and without fear to reach 12 teams next year.. A few years of growing pains need to be absorbed if we want to have a thriving league in 10-15 years from now.
Whilst I would like to see Canberra included soon, I really hope Lucas Neill puts his hand in his pockets and finances this Western Sydney bid… Playing out of Parra stadium is a no brainer.. 20k capacity stadium is just right for a few team… The other bid would have had the team playing out of Homebush, which was a real worry.
Just on the crowd figures.. WAY to early to be worried… I remember the NRL crowd figures were pretty bad in the early part of the season.. People were saying that Parramatta were a shambles.. Look at them now they are flying into the top 8. NRL’s crowds actually increased whilst all the bad stories were being broadcast.
With the fury almost getting their first win, perth glory winning back to back matches, the Jets winning at home, brisbane finally winning at home this weekend.. I really think this is positive stuff. I think perth might be able to pull a 15k+ home crowd this year..
TV deal is extremely important for the HAL going forward.. It must contain a FTA element which instantly gives access to millions of people to watch the sport for free.. You cannot buy that type of advertisement. It is what has driven the NRL and AFL to be so successful.
Realfootball said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Good point about NRL crowds, AndrewM. They were very poor early on. Everyone needs to calm down and just enjoy the football (while acknowledging that Gold Coast and Brisbane have made serious mistakes in overpricing).
I doubt that Lucas Neill has pockets that deep. Floating a money loss club needs serious capital reserves as well as commitment. My hunch is that the only way the West Sydney bid will get up is if a Clive Palmer surrogate gets involved. Lowy might be able to swing it, but it’s looking very late in the day.
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
The NRL and AFL were successful for years without TV exposure.
Both the NSWRL and VFL were the premier club competitions in the country anchored by Sydney and Melbourne respectively, with teams from those cities followed around Australia in their respective footprints.
If neither had expanded both would stil remain the premier sporting comps in their own right, many VFL fans never wanted expansion. Still to this day the games that really get the blood boiling feature the Vic v Vic teams.
It is the tribalism that is missing from the A League. The whole comp is made up of ‘expansion’ teams that is not a criticism just a fact. TV exposure would help but there are just not enough rusted on fans to create a critical mass for TV.
Redb
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
redb..
Tribalism didnt exist in VFL when the competition started.. It is something that takes years to create.. The HAL can certainly have this.. Can you imagine the atmosphere at the new melbourne stadium? Lets just be honest for a second here.. AFL and NRL does not come close to the atmosphere created by football matches where the crowds are singing and chanting… The tribalism is already there..
It just needs greater exposure by being on FTA and you watch what happens to the turnstiles. Even if you are not a die hard football supporter, it would be well worth lashing out 20 bucks to sit in an entertaining atmosphere sinking some beers with mates.
I quite like the sydney FC chant ” We dont like you because your victorian” sung just like ” your going home in the back of a divvy van”
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
AndrewM,
Atmosphere? Hmmm… no we dont have singing and chanting in an AFL game at the same level, its good fun. BUT, I take it you were not in the stands with 77,000 others in the Ess v Hawks game at the mighty MCG going off their nut and not just becuase Lloyd laid a bump, but becuase of the tribalism and the ebb and flow of on field action.
It is a truism that futbol fans create their own atmosphere whereas the on-field action creates the atmosphere at AFL games.
Redb
Michael C said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Actually tribalism WAS inherent in the early days – - before the VFL.
Melbourne was only about 80,000 in size in the mid 1850s, and soon grew to 240K and outgrew Sydney – - with all this suburban growth, industrial growth and with the new local brand of football growing at the same time – - it WAS actually one of the few cases of REAL tribal allegiance right from the outset of BOTH club and suburb.
In a lot of respects, Melbourne was unique like that. That time frame of 1850-1890. Most cities around the world were too old, too well established before their football (soccer/rugby) clubs took off from about 1890 onwards. Sydney too – didn’t really get into football culture until after 1900. Whereas Melbourne had over 100 clubs when Sydney had but a dozen.
Even on the technicality that it was the VFA for the first 20 years and then by 1897 the VFL was established.
The suburban tribalism HAS been diluted over the years with demographic change. It used to be that each rail line would be super dominated by the followers of the local team.
re. the atmosphere – - I’ve seen/heard chanting and singing at games, seen fire works, seen cheer leaders, seen Mexican waves and the like – - there’s ‘fabricated atmosphere’ and then there’s what the game itself can generate. Be careful about overstating the ‘fabricated’ stuff. Are you suggesting a song book doth a Tribe make? or a choir?? Choirlism…..
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
AndrewM
you are right that it takes years, and that is precisely part of Redb’s point.
Can the tribalism be developed in the ensuing years? Of course it can, it’s well on the way with Melb v Syd fixtures.
As for the ” We dont like you because your victorian” line – I first came across it in the 1997 preliminary final, sung by Adelaide Crows supporters (but admittedly, it got a bit washed out in an 80,000 strong crowd).
Regarding atmosphere – you won’t find too many Victorians who don’t enjoy being part of a 90,000+ throng at the MCG, but I agree with you that the atmosphere at A-League games has plenty of novelty in it for fans of other football codes (even if it is mimicking behaviour from overseas).
I also think that flares add greatly to atmosphere – but that’s just me.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
I dont like flares, now the FFA shouldn’t just bow to all the wowsers like me but I think they are doing the right thing.
Perhaps we need a flare use education course so that us Today Tonight watching aussies dont automatically associate flares with hooligans.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
I like the way that Australians support there sport be it Cricket, League or Futbal. People bang on and on about what it’s like in Europe but I dont care.
The singing and chanting that the Fan clubs bring have been a nice addition but there not why I go to a game. I especially love how fans don’t have to be segregated and I can sit next to anyone.
So I am a big fan of the Australian version of ultras which are thankfully more like the Barmy Army than European Ultras.
And I also like how they actually watch the game as opposed to some of the Korean and Japanese fans where you wonder if the match is important at all.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Interestingly, I once did an article in 442 talking up the Urawa style chanting – and I was surprised to find that over half of the comments coming back were quite derisive of Urawa style chanting.
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
I don’t see why this league has to be set up to be “different” from every other league, after all it’s one and the same game everywhere. Our league is one of the most Politically Correct on the world because the FFA seems to want to discourage the sort of rivalries that make our game exciting.
It’s not as if the European model is outdated or unworkable, or like it’s failing- the FFA seems to think the league is set up in a way that “learns lessons”- what lessons?
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
I am guessing lessons is the “NSL” as any crowd problems really hurt the league.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
David
But why should we have to blindly follow the European way especially since that didn’t work here. The NSL folded because the European way didn’t fit with our market.
Finals, salary cap, promotion + relegation, match review targeting divers and segregated crowds are all issues I don’t mind us differing. This is Australia so we should have a League that appeals to the majority of Australian’s sensibilities.
I think most people who aren’t young males wouldn’t appreciate the testosterone in the air at a lot of overseas Football games and having a family atmosphere is actually a good point of difference to overseas leagues.
I would be happy for the atmosphere at a football game to be the same as the atmosphere at a league match, the fact the organise supporting groups make it slightly better is a good thing. That’s how I like to watch football. Being able to get a drink, yell out the odd bit of abuse at the ref, only stand when something exciting is going to happen. Have a friendly laugh with but at the expense of the guy in front of us supporting the team getting thumped.
I think it’s all about balance. A lot of people enjoy being in the ultra’s area and I think while the FFA are a little bit heavy handed (banning the Eureka flag and not letting Glory celebrate their NSL history were major errors) I think they have it right.
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
The European way? Considering that England has 92 professional clubs in a 4-tier league system which has remained stable for decades, it can’t be a bad thing. Considering the heavily populated areas of Europe have more teams it makes perfect sense.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
It works for them, but I really doubt that would work here. Codes that are much more popular in Australia aren’t scrambling to bring in P&R and it didn’t do much for the NSL when it used it either.
Because the European Leagues have been most successful doesn’t necessarily mean how they do things is perfect or that what works there would work here.
Top Level football has been around over 100 years in England and is ingrained in there culture. I don’t think the current dominance of just 4 clubs finishing in the top 4 for the last x amount of seasons would fly here but they can live with it because everything else they love about the game makes up for it.
The NSL never appealed to the mainstream and that’s why it failed. The only team to get it right was Perth Glory and Northern Spirit (for 1 year). They had active support but in a welcoming style.
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Maybe but more the idea of blanketing populated areas with clubs i.e. NSW, SE Queensland, Victoria- would be in line with what we see in England, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, etc. It even works in Asia and Africa so why not?
I just love the raw passion and outright hatred that exists in local rivalries worldwide. Fans and players won’t hold back their feelings and everything is electrified and absorbing. If we don’t have this in Australia, there’s no point in the game.
To add to that, a local club is a part and parcel of one’s community and identity, it’s inextricably linked.
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
David if everyone one was the same it would be boring.. Going by your analogy there would be no females in our world.. Just blokes.. How bland.
Being different is great, as long as it fits the needs.. I am for a 2nd division but againts P&R, I am for keeping the final series, as this is inbred in Australian sporting culture. Stuff what the rest do, if we like it, then it’s good enough.
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Hatred is already here.. Sydney v Melbourne.. Honestly.. Even though Melbourne are crap, id go to watch this game because i hate Melbourne..
David who do you support and have you been to a sydney vs melbourne game?
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
I don’t support an A-League team at this moment, and have always wanted a 2nd Sydney team. But I’m an Everton supporter first and foremost, it’s my life.
Michael C said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
I went to MVFC hosting SFC at Docklands with 50,000 others………atmosphere……non-existent. Action…..about 4 ’shots on goal’, but, only one ‘half save’……scores……nil. Only cheer for the night when the crowd figure was posted on scoreboard. End of game – silence…..head back to the pub…..and thankfully there was a domestic One Dayer on tele to entertain us!!!
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
That’s quite a different analogy there! What we’re discussing is more established football practice which is to maximise access and coverage, rather than minimise. The game has to grow from the ground up that way.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
I am in favor of every region being covered West Sydney, Canberra, Wollongong and Tasmania would all be fine by me.
But teams in the same place like the second team in Melbourne playing out of the same stadium I am not so sure on unless it makes sense in growing the game.
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
The analogy is though that you want it to be exactly like Europe.. But europe has SO many issues.. Why copy something that isnt correct? Sure take the good points out, and the model your league to how it suits the countries needs..
Do you honestly think having no salary cap is good for Europe? NO it is VERY bad IMO.. The EPL is a complete waste of space.. only 4 teams compete for the same trophy year in year out.. The only way another team out of that 4 can compete is when there is a billionaire investor throwing ridiculous amounts of money around.
Where does this leave the clubs that just got promoted? They are doomed. So are the mid table clubs.
Take the good leave the bad..
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Europe’s issues?
Considering the strength of football passion in its heartlands like the North-West and Midlands, not to mention places like Milan, Rome, Madrid, the Rhine-Ruhr region, etc where you have so many professional clubs with storied traditions, it would be folly to suggest it’s remotely problematic. These clubs lie at the heart and soul of football.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
I think the covering absolutely everything is more the State League job, due to the size of our nation it’s a bit unworkable to have a team without A league potential outside of that state pyramid.
Broken Hill vsAlice Springs isn’t a workable plan.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
No doubt Europe is the heart of football but there are issues some good some bad.
If we had an SPL style comp where it was MV vs Hearts nearly every year people would switch off.
So we have to work out what is really good, and what would work here and take that. The same as when we look at the other codes. e.g. The AFL membership culture is fantastic lets try and replicate that. In rugby you can only watch the Super 14 on pay tv and it struggles for exposure, ok lets make sure theres some A league on FTA. The Bundisliga has relatively cheap tickets and gets huge crowds and that makes it look fantastic on TV, lets take that idea.
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
We’re not calling for an SPL style comp here. But if you’ve experienced local rivalries in England, tell me you wouldn’t want it replicated here?
Realfootball said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Good point. God forbid. Well, at the extreme end, anyway. We’ll never have those kind of extreme rivalries in this country unless they are imported, and we’ve been there, done that. It was called the NSL and it didn’t work.
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
David – this is not the over-populated miserable little damp country that you left.
Most of your writing on The Roar is regaling us with mainly Anglo-centric stories about this rivalry and that rivalry.
So, no I don’t want English rivalries replicated here.
I want Australian rivalries representing our unique polyglot culture.
Do you need to be reminded that we are are not all English here.
Question: If you live for football and love Everton so much why are you here then?
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Steady on Art – why are any of us here??!!
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
What do you mean Pip,??
Here on Earth, Australia, Melbourne??
Infact, why am I even writing this nonsense and responding to the nonsense that you write everyday.
Actually, I did not realise that you had a monopoly on being an agent provocatuer on this website.
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Yeh I still love the All blacks but you would have to drag me kicking and screaming onto the plane if you tried to deport me.
“I AM A CITIZEN LET GO OF ME ” “WHATS YOUR NAME? I ONCE MET JOHN FAHEY YOU KNOW!”
Now I am off to google Polyglot.
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Greeks don’t need to Google
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
Not Anglo-centric, I’m very well informed of European football, have always had time for South American and African football.
European is what most football supporters in this country connect with first. It’s where most of our players play too.
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Wrong David V. – Most of our players play in Australia – juniors, youth, amateurs, semi-pro and pro.
They are all Australian footballers. It just happens that most of our elite players end up playing in Europe, but they are part of the big Australian football community.
You seem to conveniently forget that.
David V. said | September 3rd 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
I should have said most of our most recognisable football players.
Robbos said | September 3rd 2009 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
Don’t tell Pip that, he thinks all that consist of Australian football or even popularity of football in this country reside soley with the A-League
AndyRoo said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
I think as local as we are going to get is the two teams in big cities like Sydney and Melbourne. West Sydney is in a way it’s own City. And i think only in Melbourne will we see two teams sharing the same home ground.
In say Townsville I think the idea of them ever having two professional teams in a competition that encompasses the rest of Australia won’t work.
So where not going to have the “your neighbour could be one of them rivals” but I am sure in time (a poached junior here a dubious referee decision there) local rivalries will develop in the same way they have in other codes. GCU vs Roar will be our local derbies not GC North vs Gold Coast South.
And hopefully never the menace of rivalries like Celtic vs Rangers. I would be really upset if we ever had to resort too segregating crowds.
AndrewM said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
David.. I think we all want rivalries.. But we want them to be healthy ones.. Not voilent. Whilst the EPL has done well to clean alot of it up, it looks to be starting to flare again in the championship.
So we need to be careful about the way it is implemented.. This was basically the whole reason the NSL failed. Ethnic rivarly. We have been burnt in the past , so we must execute caution going into the future.
Realfootball said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Two teams playing out of the same stadium in Melbourne looks to me to be a huge gamble, and very possibly a case of fixing something that ain’t broke. A very different situation to Sydney. But, and it is a big but, the Heart consortium would not be fronting up with large sums of money in the multi millions if they didn’t think it would work. Sidwell and his partners are businessmen, and very successful. So what do they know that we don’t? That disaffection is rife among Victory fans? That market research shows that the Victory have only tapped into a small part of the football market? There has to be a commercial basis to their decision.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
They know what we know:
1. High participation rates, low attendance
2. Plenty of Euro snobs
3. Stacks of disgruntled ex-NSL fans who hate the Victory.
4. Melburnians go stir crazy during the Summer and will pay to go see anything
Realfootball said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Pip, how do you think they can pull in more punters when the Victory couldn’t? Which, I guess, is like asking what are the Victory doing wrong? Because if the Heart people think they can pull another 15-20,000 people, how are they going to do that when the Victory can’t? Will pitching themselves as the Anti Victory be enough? Why do the ex NSL fans hate the Victory and why should they then embrace Heart?
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Realf
I’m not necessarily saying Hearts can pull in people that the Victory didn’t pull in, but I am saying that there exist people that are pullable that the Victory failed to pull in.
But I honestly have no idea whether they will succeed or not – to be honest – no one knows anything about this mob.
Robbos said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
When after the World cup, when many Melbourians will realise that this game is very popular & exciting despite what our media is telling us.
Michael C said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Robbos -
“very popular & exciting “,
compared to what?
are you talking about MVFC vs CCM? or Brazil vs Italy?
Robbos said | September 3rd 2009 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
Nth Melbourne v Collingwood.
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Ex-NSL fans in Melbourne supported clubs that were founded over 50 years ago. Thats 2 – 3 generations following a team through thick and thin. My uncle used to take me in the 70’s to South Melbourne games when I was a kid.
I don’t know if Ex-NSL supporters will embrace Heart but you can see why for alot of them it was difficult to embrace a new entity like Victory.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Art
I tend to agree with you – but I was merely pointing out one group of prospective fans, those that have never warmed to the Victory – and you know they exist in Melbourne.
In fact you might even be one of them (if you deny it, I’ll take that as irrefutable proof).
Art Sapphire said | September 3rd 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Pip – In five seasons I have missed 2 Victory home games and been interstate 3 times.
Infact, I am off to Adelaide in 2 weeks.
In fact, I was member no. 360 in the first season.
There is your irrefutable proof that I have never warmed to the team.
Pippinu said | September 3rd 2009 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
hmm, ok, you’re off the hook – but only just!!
Tom F said | September 3rd 2009 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Enough of this nonsense!
Here is my manifesto.
Every large population centre to have a team (ideally a urban catchment of $250k+, can work smaller + large hinterland eg. Fury).
Every Major City to have a local rivalry.
Target areas where population growth is high and sustained.
Target areas underserviced by other codes.
BE PATIENT! Things take time to grow.
FIFA reckons that 16 teams is ideal (30 games/season home & away + cup/playoffs/finals as well as space for international breaks)- This is what we should aim for.
Based on the above:
Melbourne can support a second team (it will probably struggle for a while, but it should live)
Sydney can support another team.
Takes us to 12.
For the other 4- the largest cities without A-league representation & over 250k population base are Canberra, Sunshine Coast, Wollongong & Geelong. They should be the priority, but if a decent Tassie bid can get up at the expense of one of the others, then so be it. Sunshine Coast & Wollongong currently lack suitable stadia, but I understand one is on the cards for Sunshine Coast & Wollongong just needs some reinvestment.
Once we have our 16 team competition up- grant a 5 year exclusivity for A-league franchises (ie guaranteed “Golden Share”) and call for entrants into a second tier comp. Especially encourage former NSL clubs & second sides from major cities without dual A-league representation (eg. Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide). Maybe even some Kiwis? Again 16 teams (maybe start with 8 if finance isn’t there)
Grant the second tier a 5 year franchise as well so they have time to get established on a lower salary cap etc.
Have a cup competition running in parallel so that the tiers play each other.
Once both levels are up and running then we can look at promotion & relegation. 1 team up & one team down: A-league to second tier, second tier to State League. State league premiers to play off for right to
However, sides that are promoted must be able to meet the financial criteria for promotion, otherwise the lucky loser remains. Teams that go up and go into administration should also face sanction- we are trying to grow the game- if a club falls over there may not be a ready replacement.
There we have it, a fully developed pathway from grassroots to ACL.
It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen.
And remember, patience grasshopper, patience!