Will Super Rugby expansion hurt league?
Roar Pro By danwighton, 2 Sep 2009 danwighton is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- Cricket, News Ltd, Rugby League, Rugby Union, State Of Origin, Super Rugby, Super Rugby 2011, western Sydney
320 Have your say
Related coverage
While not yet a done deal, it seems the next Super 14 expansion has overlooked Japan, Argentina, Western Sydney and the Gold Coast in favour of a new team in Australia’s second most populous city – Melbourne.
If a Melbourne bid is approved, will expansion into Melbourne will help or hinder development of rugby league?
After ten years, millions of dollars and several State Of Origin games, the Storm are building a strong foundation.
While they are not, as yet, turning a profit for the NRL or News Ltd, they are making significant inroads into the what was once thought to be a fool’s errand.
The success of the team has seen a surge in junior league registration, with many of the Storm’s Toyota Cup (under 20s) team born and bred in Melbourne.
For the last two years, the rugby league grand final has outrated the AFL grand final, largely on the back of strong figures from Melbourne.
A large portion of the Storm’s support comes from Melbourne’s large population of Kiwis, and this support base would surely be split if they had a Super Rugby team to support.
Also if rugby was able to gain the support of Melbourne’s private schools (as in Sydney and Brisbane), this would also stifle junior league development.
However, on the other side, a higher media profile for rugby union would not necessarily eat into that afforded to league.
For years, many Sydney and Brisbane expats who now live in Melbourne support Aussie Rules because there is no other option – they don’t show either rugby code on TV and there are very few games to attend.
Having two teams competing in international competitions would definitely boost the profile of both codes.
Another key point is that if both leagues could invest into the same facilities, they could both benefit from the other’s effort in a similar way to how the AFL has had a piggy back ride from cricketing associations Australia wide.
Recommend this story.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:08am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:08am | Report comment
The ARU missed the boat when they awarded the 4th Aust licence to Perth instead of Melbourne. I know some rugby fans on the Roar disagree with my opinion but Melbourne is a far more important sporting market to conquer than Perth with its expat base.
Criticially two things have occured since that time:
1. The interest in Super 14 rugby and Australian rugby has drifted in the Australian sporting public (incl Victoria). Post 2003 WC, interest in rugby and the Wallabies brand was very high in Victoria (at its zenith). Rugby union was definitely the ‘rugby’ Vics spoke about.
2. Rugby League through News Ltd injection has since provided grass roots funding in Victoria which has equalled rugby union’s grass roots programs, ARU backed expansion in schools, junior programs,etc. Prior to the 03 WC, league had no grass roots, but perhaps since has stolen a few juniors away from union becuase it has an aspirational team for young kiwis, polynesians in Melbourne and the some born and bred Vics attracted to the game (albeit still very limited in number).
The new rugby team if its gets off the ground, will have grass roots support and some momentum.
But the key thing is success and communtity engagement. it is highly possible that like with all expansion teams in new markets the bandwagon will rule the roost and the financial fortunes of both teams.
Therefore dont be surprised if the Storm drops off in the NRL and the Vic Rebels rise to the top of Super rugby the interest (crowds, TV ratings, media) will swing to the Rebels. No doubt a range of articles will be written reinforcing the perception of one winning out over the other when it fact it just comes down to bandwagon.
It’s why the AFL will have two teams in NSW and QLD.
Redb
p.s. I should add that the seasons dont completely over-lap making it possible to follow both.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:36am
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
Correct re bandwagon, but it will also depend on the success of the Rebels on the field. They are extremely unlikely to make 4 GF’s in their first 10 years (and win 2) as the Storm did, given the lack of player depth in Australian Rugby and the pull of greater $$ in Europe.
It would be hard to argue that the Storm’s current support isn’t pretty rusted on, so i’d say they’ll continue to pull 12-15k averages, even when / if the Rebels come in.
If the Rugby community in Melbourne that we hear about does support the Rebels then coupled with the bandwagon factor plus the new stadium then the first year at least should pull 20k average crowds. It’ll be 5 years down the track that they’ll face the true test.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:46am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
The Link,
Yeah I agree it will be much harder to make the Rebels an overnight success.
I think the different season will help, certainly if your looking for a footy fix November onwards I’ll attend a few games and I reckon many AFL fans will as well. They will need an attacking style to keep me interested. Certainly with the A League, 2-3 games was enough to make up my mind whether it was worth persisting.
The Rebels will get a few cracks at getting cross code support from AFL fans, it would be smart to schedule some Kiwi sides (Christchurch) who will travel to Melbourne and build an atmosphere.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:43am
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Makes next year a pretty important one for the Storm. Assuming they’ll get the inagural game in the Bubble, they’ll get a capacity crowd out of curiousity and good exposure. If they can build on that then a 15 – 20k ave season is likely.
One thing’s for sure, the Storm will continue to impress on the field for the next few years with Cronk, Inglis and Slater in the mix.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:15am
Bill said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
The is also a Rugby culture in Victoria and has been for over 50 years. The school rugby has a very proud history. The Kiwi’s and Pacific Islands expats living in Victoria are born and bred into the Rugby culture of their country in which Rugby is the National Sport.
I wonder what would happen to the Storms if News Limited pull their annual grants of $5 million per year ? I can’t think of any consortium that would want to invest in a club that have lost money since its existance and haven’t had a local player in the the starting line up for over 11 years.
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:18pm
danwighton said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
I understand your comments about local players, but I think this is more down to the years of neglect than to the last 11 years not working.
There are several good under 20s players who are Melbourne born and bred, and the setting up of junior leagues like this takes time to show full results.
Even the AFL, who has had junior leagues in Queensland and NSW over 50 years, arent getting a huge amount of players in the top grades – the majority of Sydney and Brisbane players are not home grown.
As for News Ltd – they owe the game much more than $5m per year after what they’ve done to it.
danwighton
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:23pm
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
There are around 70 NSW and QLD born and bred players in the AFL at various clubs.
Serious grass roots development with the assistance of the AFL has only been in the last 5 years in non tradtional areas.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 5:10pm
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
This season, 50 AFL listed players from QLD – dispersed across 16 teams and 5 states.
30 ish from NSW, likewise mostly dispersed.
Each state singularly is more important than Tasmania. That should tell you something. SA and WA provide over 100 players each. QLD in the SoO for NRL only had about 80 listed eligible players to select from. Makes 50 AFL QLD origin players pretty significant.
My North Melb has Pratt, Hale, Warren and Urquhart from QLD – all, injury and form willing – regular senior players. They tend to become invisible to NRL advocates in QLD who only look toward the Lions player list.
Key in most cases is to have a decent development pathway – AFL are bringing NSW more on line now, and the more home grown GC17 and WS18 will be interesting exercises in ‘in your face’ local talent.
At any rate – the point of interest for us AFL folk in tracking the NSW scholarship scheme has been that only relatively few were clearly expat Vics, although, some were children of expat Vics – and that, for any code, is a key opportunity – SO LONG as the code has decent talent pathways and talent development programs that don’t require moving a 14-16 yr old interstate.
For the AFL to invest in QLD and NSW such that kids can develop ‘locally’ and be drafted at age 18 – - that is significant.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:24am
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
An interesting question, and redb’s theory sounds pretty good to me, i.e. don’t pay attention to what happens the first few years, come back in 20 years if you really want your answer.
I just want to quibble with two statements made in this article that are note quite right.
Ratings in relation to the grand finals.
This site: http://www.talkingfooty.com/tv_ratings_2008.php, plus another one that was put up on another thread shows that the AFL grand final rated higher in 2008.
Cricket and aussie rules.
This statement: “AFL has had a piggy back ride from cricketing associations Australia wide”, is so way off the mark it’s hilarious. People should understand their sporting history before making such outlandish claims. Suffice to say, the MCG is not the ground it is today because one cricket test is played there each Summer.
Also, the MCC does not have a waiting list of potential members a mile long so that they can go and watch the Boxing Day test.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Pip,
yeah the cricket comment displays complete ignorance. Cricket in Victoria sweeps up the scraps from the best the kids who choose to play football.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 5:54pm
AndyS said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Yeah, now, but the point was regarding shared facilities and it is the Melbourne CRICKET Ground. AFL may arguably be the most significant user now, but Aussie Rules is what it is because it rode behind cricket for a very long time. Like most relationships there has been give and take both ways, both sports have benefitted from sharing common grounds, but I think the basic point is valid.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:48am
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Inc regionals according to that link the AFL GF had about 150k more people watching. Both over 3mill.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:03am
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Just for the record, the NRL had 1 million regional veiwers not counted in that number. So yes, the NRL had the greater audience.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:19am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
for the record your wrong. AFL GF with regionals – 3,217,000, NRL GF with regionals – 3,037,000. (very quick add)
That damn close who cares to be honest. Many would watch both and the competing teams has an influence , as does the timeslot.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:40pm
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Oh gosh -
don’t tell me.
Regionals (even in QLD and NSW – might/do) tune into the AFL GF too?!?!?!?
ANd, that, there are regionals outside of Melb,Perth,Adelaide too.
And there’s Tassie.
Just seems there’s a lot of silly bragging going on based on false or weak assumptions.
btw – obviously NRL has had a great numerical boost in recent years with Storm contesting successive GFs.
The AFL did best in the years with the Swans in the GF.
THis alone tells us we need to be careful what years/markets we try to compare and what conclusions we try to draw regarding underlying strength outside of a one off annual Grand Final.
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:59pm
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
True M.C, maybe this years stats might show a brighter picture. Looking forward to the results.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:01am
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
The Gabba in Queensland is a Cricket stadium PIp. So this statement is dead right.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:07am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Why because both sports use ovals.
There are only two partnerships between cricket and AFL that I’m aware of in the whole country.
1. Blacktown Oval, between Cricket NSW and AFL
2. MCC and Melb football club – realigned this year after about 30 estranged years.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:12am
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Redb, i have just finished telling you that the gabba was a cricket ground, still is, i use to sell bloody icecreams at the Gabba when i was a kid. And AFL was never played their.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:14am
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Oikee
good example. When you were selling ice creams, the Gabba was a crap ground – now it’s a decent stadium – but what do you reckon pays for that stadium? Your ice creams?
Let me give you one hint – Sheffield Cricket sure as hell doesn’t pay for it.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:21am
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
OK, i will tell you this, AFL in some way has done a deal with cricket for stadium use, they use the same oval grounds. Yes, state government helped improve the ground for the benifit of AFL mainly because of crowd figures compared to 1 thousand cricket numbers turning up, it makes sense. So getting back to the 1st remark about cricket helping the AFL with grounds, this is true, not false as some try to say. Queensland AFL would never have grown so quickly without the help and use of its cricket grounds. Full-stop.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:17am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Oikee,
Comprehension test. The article suggests ‘piggy backing’, that is aligning together or captialising on the others success. The Gabba is a cricket oval? thanks never realised
, but there is no dual marketing, logistic synergies,etc between Bris lions and Cricket QLD.
At least nothing that makes much of a difference to the possiblities that Melb Storm and Rebels alliance might bring given the Kiwi, Polynesian expat factor in Melbourne.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 12:26pm
danwighton said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Glad to see this article has got people talking.
Just to clarify, what I meant by my comment in the article was that in the development of Aussie Rules outside Melbourne, the game received a leg up by having state of the art grounds to use for their competition.
I think Aussie Rules also would have got some assistance in Melbourne in the early years by their use of cricket facilities – lets not forget the reason the game was invented in the first place!
I think at this point, at least in all states bar NSW and Qld, the AFL would be bringing more people into the various Cricket Association grounds per annum. Probably in NSW and Qld as well, not taking into account 20-20 cricket of course.
At the time AFL was developing in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane Adelaide and Perth, state and test cricket drew more crowds than they do now – and cricket got more government support so that their facilities were better. The AFL could, and did, take advantage of that to build their code to being the number one of any sporting code in Australia.
I think that the NRL, in partnership with Rugby Union and A-League authorities could build a state of the art rectangular field – much like Suncorp – and also pour money into the training facilities etc. This would mean each code would have to spend less than if they were to do it individually, and each would benefit more also.
The State and Federal Governments, as well as local councils, would be more willing to chip in money to the stadium if they knew it was helping three international sporting codes (NRL, Super 14 and A-League all have overseas teams), rather than one.
DanWighton
September 2nd 2009 @ 1:33pm
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Danwighton,
You are still off the mark with your understanding of the cricket and AFL connection, apart from some ground sharing it is virtually non existent.
Both Adelaide (AAMI stadium) and Perth (Subiaco) do not play on cricket grounds.
The SCG was hardly state of the art and was only redeveloped in the last couple of years.
GABBA was redeveloped only recently as well.
Apart from the fact that cricket grounds existed providing a venue there is not much else to it.
Whilst a rectangular venue has not been available it has never stopped the rectangular codes playing in Melbourne for the last 20 years so I wouldnt build too greater argument around ground availability for the codes.
At the end of the day RL crowds even in rectangular stadia in Sydney including the SFS have never been fantastic.
Redb
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:28am
Matt S said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
bill, the Storm of the last 10 years will be very different to the Storm of the next 10 years. The benefits of grassroots development over the last few years will come to feature. Given the remarkable success of the Storm’s SG Ball team I think we will start to see born & bred Vics in the Storm and at other NRL clubs. The new stadium will also see the club go to the next level. That $5 million loss could start to come down to $1-2 million, which is the expectant loss of a lot of NRL/AFL clubs.
I think the Storm would be just as better proposition for private takeovers than the Super 15′s given the hugh losses of well established Australian franchises atm.
All they need to do is break into the FTA TV market in Victoria and maintain consistent success (i.e. challenge for the top 8 more often than not).
What they have acheieved to this point is quite a success in many eyes.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:35am
Tom Alexander. said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:35am | Report comment
On the RFL website in the Carnegie Champion schools link it puts the participating schools figure at 1,678 involved in the tournament, with student numbers totalling 27,537 which includes teams from London, Wales and the North West. With the schools final being played at Wembley before the Challenge Cup, that must be a huge incentive for schools not traditionally associated with Rugby League to enter the competition. Good stuff.
September 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
In NSW though what he says is correct. Wouldn’t be hard to get cricket clubs to agree to put some posts up for a couple of games of AFL each fortnight. Better than lending your ground to the local futbal club and finding 500 kids using it each Saturday. Especially when dads not looking they love to run across the pitch with their boots on because of the sound it makes
I do remember my old neighbor had SCG membership and it wasn’t to watch the Swans.
Then the super league war happened and Plugger was having a good year so they finally went to a swans game (after having the membership for 15 plus years) and his misses loved it so it all of a sudden was a huge bonus for them.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:18am
Pippinu said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
But like the Oikee example above – don’t you reckon the SCG gets a big advantage at filling the ground 9 or so weekends during the Winter?
I’ve been in the members area at the SCG during Winter a few times – it’s usually quite full.
The main problem is that they don’t quite understand the game, don’t make much noise, and don’t like it if you’re making plenty of noise.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:20am
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
yeah but your a trouble maker Pip we all know that.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:28am
AndyRoo said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
I think 1996 was a huge turning point for the Swans so I do think they benefit now, especillay since Shield Cricket is suffering so badly.
September 2nd 2009 @ 11:50am
The Link said | September 2nd 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
95/96 was a perfect allingment for the AFL in Sydney, RL almost canabalising itself and the Swans becoming a good side and the next hip thing for the eastern suburbs + north shore set.
September 3rd 2009 @ 12:19pm
Lewie said | September 3rd 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
when was the last time the SCG was full for a non-cricket event?
September 2nd 2009 @ 12:43pm
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Well thats obvious Dan, maybe if and when Perth and Aderlaide get decent grounds for the 3 codes then we will see better grounds being played out for these codes. I will wait and see how the New Stadium in Melbourne goes 1st.
It could mean the difference for expansion of league in other states. If their governments like what they see, then maybe they might do the same for their own benifits. But they should be looking at larger stadium, so they can have internationals also played their, simalar to what they are doing in NZ with Eden park. Suncorp has capitilised on this with gusto, everyone wants to play out of this stadium, it still gives me goosebumps arriving at this ground, its full of skeletons, yes they never dug up all the bodies, To many to worry about, they got to 332 and gave up. They are now burried at Towong. cemetary
I swear i saw a extra player on the ground wearing a blue jacket the last origin game.
September 2nd 2009 @ 1:49pm
danwighton said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Hi Redb – Not sure if I need to clarify again, but as my article said, the support (in-kind support, not marketing synergies or whatever else) provided by cricket in the years of Aussie Rules helped develop the game. These days, plenty of games are played at grounds that are not exclusively “cricket grounds”. [I would argue that these days, with the drop in pitch etc, not even the MCG is primarily a cricket ground].
However, this is because AFL is through its development stage in these centres – what I suggested was similar support for the three rectangular codes in their development stage in the southern states.
And while they do play rectangular games on large ovals, the experience does not compare with a specifically built field.
I think there would be much larger crowds in Sydney at both League and Union if there was a stadium the quality of Lang Park.
As for marketing synergies and all that logistics stuff, I doubt very much that League and Union would share a bed to promote each other – even if it was to the exclusion of AFL.
Dan.
September 2nd 2009 @ 1:56pm
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
no sweat.
look even great stadiums are only part of the picture. Look at Bris Roar crowds in the A League at Suncorp so far this season.
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:17pm
Republican said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
League struggles in Melbourne as is. It could be argued that Melbourne/Vic will suuport Union moreso than League based on a fairly confined history the game boasts there. That this is quite ancient history suggests that Unions professed success is far from assured and that Melbournians will not necessarily flock to Super games any more than they do League
I rather think that the support base between League and Union will be a shared with some inquisitive extras initially getting along to games, however once the novelty wears off the potential support base could well be spread thinner.
September 3rd 2009 @ 2:52pm
Mick from Giralang said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Which is what will happen to the AFL support base when Western Sydney arrives
September 3rd 2009 @ 3:23pm
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
So you agree with Republican about the rugby codes in Melbourne.
I dont see it that way or for the AFL in WS.
November 21st 2009 @ 4:42pm
Dave1 said | November 21st 2009 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
That is why they are talking about the next 20 years of the GWS team and not the the short term initial growth.
September 2nd 2009 @ 2:28pm
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Danwighton -
please – if you’re going to lodge articles – avoid the mindless propaganda and do some research.
You stated “The success of the team has seen a surge in junior league registration, with many of the Storm’s Toyota Cup (under 20s) team born and bred in Melbourne. ”
I’ve just looked through the profiles – and I find 1 ‘Victorian’. With a ‘traditional’ name of Pulou Vaituutuu, from Waverley Panthers. There’s Luke Kelly from WA (Katherine).
The following all list NZ as Junior clubs and Rep Honours : Junior Afu, Jesse Bromwich, Matthew Duffie, Slade Griffin, Blaise Lomax, Lazarus Mulu and Theodore Stuart, and of the kiwis, only Keni Blair has “Combined Affiliated States” listed as a Rep.Honour.
From NSW we have : James Barker, Dane Chisolm, Matt Croker, Jake Hawkins, Willie Isa, Jai Jones-Weigold, Pita Maile, Fred Makimare, Sam Martin, Robert Rochow and Brendan Train and I’m not sure is Josh Jerome is NSW Eastern Suburbs or Justin O’Neill is a NSW or a QLD ‘Brothers’ ‘graduate.
From ACT, Will Naitoro, James Woolford and Jordan McLeen.
From Eng, Gareth Widdop.
From QLD, Matt Currie, Sam Joe, Blake Leary, Billy Rogers, Gerrard Tibbetts, Joseph Tomane.
So – - ‘many’ seems to equate to ONE.
Care to re-state your position on the ‘junior’ strength in Victoria.
September 2nd 2009 @ 3:57pm
danwighton said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Hey mate,
Going on the back of a discussion on ABC Radio (Brisbane) two weeks ago about this very topic, which said that at the start of this year, 9 of the 20 Toyota Cup Storm players were from Melbourne. This was also referenced by Phil Rothfield on his Daily Telegraph blog towards the start of the year, and mentioned by Cameron Smith on the footy show last year. Apparently two of the contenders for player of the year come from Melbourne.
Must admit I didnt research each individual player’s profile on the website, but good for you that you did. The website doesnt take into account a variety of factors, such as players who moved to Melbourne to try and get into the Toyota Cup – perhaps these players were counted as “Melbourne Players”, im not sure what their exact criteria was. But having said that, I dont think it matters greatly for the purposes of the debate.
The point of the article was to discuss whether Union would eat into the success League has had in Melbourne, or whether it would support it and allow it to grow.
And as for “traditional names”, I have a few Polynesian friends who would love to have that discussion with you.
Cheers,
DanWighton.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:28pm
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Dan -
we AFL folk get a tad sensitive of Sydney based double standards – such that we’re supposed to get excited about ‘home grown’ talent in the Storm U20s. (one). People make misleading statements that get accepted as truths. I expected at least, even if born in NSW or QLD, that there’d be more references to Victorian junior clubs or Vic/Affiliated States Rep Honours. But, all these guys (other than as specified), had junior clubs AND rep honours (if any) listed in their states and countries of origin. Even the Brit.
And then, Sydney folk try to claim the AFL should give up on Sydney when, at least there are 30 odd NSW lads actually playing AFL…..not just in the NSW Under 16 or under 18s.
The Swans even headed to Sydney all those years ago with NSW lads on board – alas, for some in Sydney, Albury and Wagga seemingly don’t count. Surely Storm could find a kid from Wodonga??
re Polynesian names – traditionally, such names are very, very much more identifiable, in Australia – with playing Rugby (L or U). We have only a couple of exceptions in AFL/VFL recent history. Ataata, Naitanui……that’s about it. Even guys with Fijian, Samoan or Korean (included just for the naming point) have carried names like Rodan, Carlisle, Edwards and Bell hardly invoke images of ‘exotic’ cultures. There is a kid Khan Harutuku I think from NSW on StKilda’s rookie list, but, I haven’t heard much about him.
So, forgive me for suggesting that a name such as ‘Vaituutuu’ would be a tad out of place on an AFL list. Although, times are-a-changin’.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:59pm
John Ryan said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
How many AFL juniors out of NSW and QLD are from SA, WA, VIC whose parents moved up to the Northern states?
Two can play at that game
September 2nd 2009 @ 6:54pm
prowling panther said | September 2nd 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
some AFL players promoted as ‘Queenslanders’
Nick Riewoldt -born Tasmania
Jason Akermanis -born Mildura
Michael Voss -born Traralgon, Vic
True that a few AFL players are born and bred Queenslanders but consider the funds that are pumped into the state by AFL
It is on that note difficult to expect a blue eyed, blonde haired kid to idolise the storm (and rugby league) ahead of their local AFL team
September 2nd 2009 @ 8:39pm
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
It’s more than a few, some 70 odd. The dollars you speak of have only really happened since the Tv rights dollars so its very simialr to News Ltd and what it is now doing for RL.
A sample:
Swans :
Jack
Bevan
Roberts-Thomson
McVeigh
Kirk
St Kilda:
Lenny hayes
Gilbert
Adelaide:
Tippett
Collingwood:
Beams
MC will no doubt have a bigger list.
ABS stats show AFL has equal participation with rugby union in Queensland.
Redb
September 4th 2009 @ 4:03pm
Michael C said | September 4th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Correct – this plays a part – undoubtedly – and the test for each code with respect to those state ‘expats’ who wish to play a little part of home – - is to provide a nutruring development path for them to access should they be good enough. Michael Voss and Jason Akermanis were prime examples of expat Vics – - who moved up during primary school years – and were still able to make the grade via the QLD local talent pathways.
The NRL has ignored their potential talent pool for way too long, especially in Melbourne, and likewise the AFL has in Sydney. For the AFL, they got the program working well in QLD and have used learnings from there. For the NRL – Melbourne really is it for now – i.e. having a ‘resident’ Toyota Cup and 1st grade team.
Akermanis and Voss obviously date right back to the early-mid 90s. And Riewoldt was drafted back around 2000. The real progress on accessing/developing local talent has been over the last 10 years. I.e. not just that kids REQUIRE a well meaning encouraging (pushy?) parent, but, that a system is in place.
At any rate – the Melb Storm U20s, only has one player listing his junior club as a Victorian/Melbourne one. That’s the main point – I don’t really care where they were born or did their primary schooling. The fact is, the local ‘system’ has only pushed one ‘graduate’ into the Toyota Cup squad. Having a sprinkling in the U16s and U18s is good, nice and all that, but, the key is how they get developed to the next level. Good luck to them.
September 3rd 2009 @ 1:16pm
Lewie said | September 3rd 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Michael C are you suggesting that his Polynesian sounding name suggests he’s not Victorian?
Timan Tahu was born in Victoria. What does that make him? un-Australian? un-Victorian?.
Here’s a player list of the Melbourne Storm’s Grand Final SG Ball (U/18′s) side, is there enough non-Poly surnames there for you?
The full list of players from the 2009 squad is:
Robbie Kurth, Young Tonumaipea, Justin O’Neill, Slade Griffin, Eddie Faamausili, John Aldridge, Matt Currie, Jordan McLean, Lucas Grech, Matt Constantinou, Sam Martin, Kenny Bromwich, Jerome Henry, Hershel Gideon, Theo Stuart, Aaron Laasia, Duane Butler, Sepeti Afu, Luke Waiti, Mark Porges, Cameron Hansen, Dave Mataika, Elyon Brown, Josh Jerome, Tinus Dorante.
Here’s a comment from the Sportal website (http://storm.sportal.net.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&id=16604)
“What made the achievement even more special is the fact the success was achieved with a squad of players that were predominantly Victorian, taught how to play the game through the Melbourne Storm Development Programs.”
As for your 30 odd NSW’men in the AFL, this site (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595153) shows that of that number (38), 17 originate from the Riverina/Murray areas, and 3 from Broken Hill, and (strangely) 1 from the ACT.
Just 14 are from Sydney and it’s surrounds, and a further two are from the Noth Coast regions.
September 3rd 2009 @ 1:39pm
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Lewie,
Just 14 AFL players from Sydney. Just?
and 2 from the North Coast which is actually the biggest black hole for AFL footy yet manages to get 2 players onto AFL lists.
And how many from Melb in the NRL again?
Western Sydney will eventually see more AFL players from Sydney, the same type of grass roots programs for AFL is under way and it will reap results in the future.
Beat your drum if you wish, we can beat ours just as loud.
Redb
September 3rd 2009 @ 2:34pm
Lewie said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Redb,
i’m not interested in getting in to a code war with you or anyone re League and AFL and who can pee higher.
I will however correct mis-information, or add new information that hopefully can enlighten.
The facts are, Melbourne Storm this season entered an elite U/18′s Rugby League competition for the first time and in their first attempt made the grand final of that competition. with a team that comprised several born and bred Victorians.
You can beat whatever you like, i don’t care, and feel free to boast all you want about the numbers, but highlighting how many Sydney-raised players are in the AFL as opposed to how many NSW-born players there are is a much more accurate appraisal in my opinion.
September 3rd 2009 @ 2:38pm
Redb said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
On the contrary your ‘enlightenment’ is code war ramble.
September 3rd 2009 @ 1:57pm
Michael C said | September 3rd 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Michael C are you suggesting that his Polynesian sounding name suggests he’s not Victorian?
No.
Timan Tahu was born in Victoria. What does that make him? un-Australian? un-Victorian?.
I don’t know, you’re telling this story.
Re the SG Ball Under 18 squad. Yippee. That wasn’t what the author of this article was talking about – and I quote:
with many of the Storm’s Toyota Cup (under 20s) team born and bred in Melbourne.
Not sure why people keep going on about the Under 18 SG Ball team!?!??! In the AFL we could quote the number of NSW kids in the NSW Under 18 squads in the AFL National Championships…..really, that’s not the point. The point is that the author of the article should get his facts in order – - rather than just peddling misleading or to quote John Ryan “mindless propaganda”.
September 3rd 2009 @ 2:40pm
Lewie said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Michael C,
i hardly think the most pertinent fact made by the article’s author was in relation to the number of Victorians in the Storm’s u/20′s squad.
You are the one highlighting it, and you are the one who gleefully pointed out the innacuracy of the commnet, and then went one step further to use it against the idea that League is growing throughout Victoria successfully.
Therfore, bringing up the facts about the Storm’s U/18 SG Ball team is very relevant.
And it was you Michael C who thought it necessary to question/highlight the origins of the one native Victorian in the Storm u/20′s squad. So i’m sorry, no, it is not my story, but yours to explain.
September 4th 2009 @ 2:24pm
Michael C said | September 4th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Lewie
Yes I did highlight it,
No, it wasn’t the MOST pertinent apparent fact – - however, it brought all else into doubt.
Nothing ‘gleeful’ about it.
SImply, if people are going to use this domain, and actually post articles – as distinct from a lot of the rot ‘stated’ in the general threads – well, in posting articles – let’s all demand a tad bit of A. accuracy, and B. accountability.
The SG Ball team appears to be what the Author should have been referring to, but, clearly, he stated Under 20s and Toyota Cup.
Why are people trying to defend the indefensible. Danwighton made an error – - and seems to have just recycled some hearsay from somewhere else without doing any basic check first.
Again – I have NO idea why you have gone on about ‘un-Victorian’ AND ‘un-Australian’. You are trying to go somewhere that none of us want or need to.
Are you trying to suggest that Pacific Islanders are common place in the AFL? I believe I explained that even those few ‘exotic’ origin players we have, tend to have pretty un-exotic names,
I continue – such as the Brazilan/African Harry O’Brien (okay, Harry is his common version of Heritier), or from PNG we had Mal Michael. That I so clearly remember Fatui Ataata from the early/mid 1980s who I don’t think played more than night matches – is because such origin names are so uncommon in the AFL.
SO, push your racist agenda elsewhere please.
September 3rd 2009 @ 2:58pm
Mick from Giralang said | September 3rd 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Lewie: I find it a bit disturbing that some of these AFL cheerleaders have a pre-occupation with players/supporters ethnic background. Rugby league has and welcomes participation from people of all backgrounds — yes, and that includes polynesians.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:56pm
John Ryan said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Michael C accusing some one of mindless propaganda,you should be on the stage son
September 4th 2009 @ 4:04pm
Dave said | September 4th 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
AFL players of Fijian descent
David Rodan
Setanta Ó hAilpín (Fijian mother)
Aisake O’hAilpin
Alipate Carlile
Nic Naitanui
September 4th 2009 @ 4:21pm
Pippinu said | September 4th 2009 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
For those who don’t know, Nic Naitanui is a very exciting prospect. Here he is on debut earlier this year, only about 18 years old. He shrugs off about 4 tackles to get the handball away out of a congested centre bounce – it’s the fact that he’s doing this at only 18 that is the impressive bit:
September 2nd 2009 @ 3:05pm
oikee said | September 2nd 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
I can do that for you M.C, try the under 16 and under 18 , sure you will find many more. As for being a islander, is that not what Victoria is, a city made up of many nationalities. Lets not get into races. I think Parramatta has 80 percent of its under 20′s squad from islander decent. They are a huge part of our game, and this is why Union is getting weaker in Oz.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:03pm
Redb said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Agree oikee, but MC is not being racist.
What is being pointed out is the expat factor (even 2nd generation) which drove a lot of AFL interest in the early days in NSW/QLD and still contributes today is the same factor driving junior growth in league in Vic.
oikee, i think your right about union getting weaker as more go to league than union.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:12pm
Michael C said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Oikee -
the author specifically stated the Under 20s Toyota Cup team.
Why have you mentioned Under 16s and Under 18s???
re the name – as Redb indicated, it’s indicative of coming from a cultural background that would suggest that we’d be surprised very much so were his name to NOT appear on a Rugby(L or U) teamsheet.
September 2nd 2009 @ 4:42pm
Poly W said | September 2nd 2009 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
the reason why there more Islanders playing in west sydney is because rugby league tackle from the age of 6 where rugby starts from 10 years. once rugby gets its house in order and allowed kids to tackle from 6 or 7 years old the pacific island parents will sent their kids back to the game they love most.
queensland has already done this and have seen a large numbers of pacific island kids playing rugby and junior numbers gone up.
September 2nd 2009 @ 5:04pm
John Ryan said | September 2nd 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Run along Poly W and go back to trolling places where you wont get your arse handed to you on a plate,but then your banned on most forums if I remember rightly for making stupid statements about Rugby League,something which you seem to persist with here
September 3rd 2009 @ 7:06pm
RL fan said | September 3rd 2009 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
I have to say poly w is that really what you think would happen? Yes, some poly kids may drift back to union but I would suspect many would not. You see what we all seemto forget is that union has always had a grudge against leaue (and vice versa I know before you all jump on me about that). But the truth is RL has ben hidden away from the population by RU sympathisers on the threat that League may steal away players from Union. League is a simple game,easy to follow and entertaining to watch. I believe now that alot of poly kids who have been exposed to RL by moving to Australia would actually start to shift the alliance into RL. Why? Because poly kids like it rough and the hard hits produced in league at any level would appeal more to them.. My honest belief is the reason the the islander kids (not so much the maori population as NZ has more League exposure hence why you see alot more maoris playing league than islanders) are most into union is because on the islands there wasn’t any other choice! Now they are in Australia the 2 codes are on a level playing field comercially anyway and people can choose which game they prefer. I think the stigma of both codes is what is contributing to many poly kids turning to league. As we know private schools play union,and state schools play league. How many polykids do youknow that come straight over from NZ or especially the islands straight into a private school? Not many, if any at all! So when wanting to join a sport youwould automatically want to join up with your friends. Now I don’t know about you but I would bet there is not many Church of England Grammar school kids hanging out with kids from Marsden State High School. Whether we believe it or not the rift and class war between the 2 codes is still alive and kicking today and as long as this is the way then I don’t think that many polykids will make a return to union. Some may butnot a hell of a lot.
September 4th 2009 @ 12:23am
Samoan Siva said | September 4th 2009 @ 12:23am | Report comment
So now you are speaking on our behalf. Its very simple. Rugby is in our culture whether your Maori, Samoan, Tongan, Fijian, Cook Islands or Niuen. It has nothing to do race or class. We have had rugby league and expose to it in New Zeland for over 100 years and the majority of Maori and Polynesian still play rugby union. There are over 50,000 Maori and Pacific Islands rugby union players in New Zealand. Rugby league only has 15,000 players left in the country. How do you explain that ? Im a fan of both codes and currently playing for Logan Master in Brisbane. I want you to remember this. Many Pacific Islanders and Maori’s find rugby league boring and slow. You can argue that till your blue but its the truth and I’ve seen it in New Zealand and here in Australia.
The reson why many Pacific Islanders and Maori don’t go to Churchie or Nudgee is because they can”t afforded. Many of the Polynesian boys playing in the GPS schools are on scholarship and majority of them came from league schools. Who did they choose ? GPS school rugby over rugby league.
The hits on the rugby field is just as hard as the hits on the league or American Football field. Rugby league has also been around the Pacific Islands for a while and not many are switching codes and was even dead in Samoa for over seven years. How do you explain that ?
The only thing that has change in Queensland since Pacific Islands start arriving from New Zealand is that more and more rugby league playing state schools are also playing rugby union. This is due to the Kids wanting to play and their parents prepared to coach them.
Marsden State High a very proud league school has been in the final of the Ballymore Cup 1st XV competition five times and and took the title four times. Israel Folau’s father who was a international rugby player for Tonga coach the team with Antonio Winterstein’s uncles helping out as well.
Your code war is a myth because Maori and Polynesians don’t believed in them. We believe in what is ours and that is our religion which is the church and rugby union.
September 4th 2009 @ 1:12am
RL fan said | September 4th 2009 @ 1:12am | Report comment
Calm yourself! It just so happens I am a bloody maori so please do not try and talk down to me like I am some blow in pakeha! Born and bred in Auckland son, where most maoris play league! Don’t believe me if you like but have a look at the national team of both codes! Not too many bloody maoris doing the haka in the all blacks team I’m telling you right now! There is the living truth of it! Count how many maoris play for the kiwis and then go back and count how many play for the “all blacks”. Maybe if you travelled outside Australia and NZ you would find that the class war within the 2 codes is still very much alive, and trust me it is very much alive in Aus as well. If you live in Brisbane, than you may be able to tell me, how many polynesians play in the QRU first division clubs? I think there is a handful playing at Sunnybank and 1 or 2 here and there at all the rest. Now do the same count in the QLD Cup! You would be shocked. Just because you think league is boring doesn’t mean that every other poly does. IMHO most of them tend to stray towards league because of the physicality and the ball being in play rather than waiting for 1 player to kick goals. That’s what makes us so suited to the game. Isn’t that why we play? To get the ball in our hands and try and run?A game with 65 points and 1 try is hardly what I would call a great spectacle but hey each to there own! Anyway this is not about the code war so lets not get that debate started. We could be here for eternity.
September 4th 2009 @ 2:19am
Siva Samoa said | September 4th 2009 @ 2:19am | Report comment
Well sorry Mr Tumeke but Im from Henderson in Auckland where I played league for Waitemata and rugby for Te Atatu and just moved to Brisbane a couple of years ago. I don’t know where you got your figures from but Im sure your paranoid league mates might have helped you there.
The majority of Maori and Pacific Islands in Auckland and New Zealand play rugby union.
Do you actually think because there are more Maori on the Kiwi league team than the All Blacks thats how it is nationally ? How many Maori Schools play rugby league ? There are many provinces in New Zealand with a large Maori population that doesn’t even play rugby league.
Majority of Sunnybank, Logan, Pine Rivers, North QUT, Souths, Goodna, Wynnum, Redcliffe, Inala, West, Beenleigh, and most rugby clubs in the Gold Goast are Maori and Pacific Islanders.
And there are also many Maori and Pacific Islanders playing premiership for Brothers, Souths, Norths, GPS, Easts, Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast, Sunnyback and West Bulldogs.
Read this from the herald it might give you an idea that out of the 15,000 rugby league players left in NZ. 9000 comes from Auckland. So how many Maori lives outside of Auckland again ?
[quote]Rugby league has experienced a slide in participation numbers since its peak in the mid- to late-1990s when 40,000 people were said to play the game. .
There were about 20,000 registered players in 2002 and this has since dropped to 15,000.
A huge increase in playing numbers was experienced when the Warriors entered the old Winfield Cup in 1995 but numbers remained unchanged on the back of the Warriors’ surge to the grand final in 2002.
Auckland remains the stronghold of league in this country, accounting for about 9000 of the 15,000 registered players nationally. [/quote]
[quote]League has not received high performance investment for three years. Sparc has placed investment into NZRL on hold till after the review.
Though there were 15,000 registered league players in New Zealand, Miskimmin said the game was sick outside Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch.
“Of the 15 districts, five of them have got less than 10 teams and I’m not talking about clubs, I’m talking about actual teams,” he said.
“We have always said that we have been willing to invest in rugby league but until it gets its structures right … we wouldn’t be looking at just high performance, we’re looking at an all of sport approach here.”
The review’s findings and recommendations for NZRL, chaired by business and sports administrator Sir John Anderson, are expected in February.
Sparc will announce funding for its top nine “targeted” sports – rugby, cricket, netball and the six Olympic sports of swimming, triathlon, cycling, rowing, athletics and yachting – at the same time.
League will have to scrap for cash as a “contestable” sport.[/quote]
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/737781
Hope that helps Bro. Tofa Soifua
September 13th 2009 @ 12:01pm
Jb said | September 13th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
the hits are equally “big” but the only difference is that in league they have their wussy “shoulder charges” which only shows that a fat bogan knows how to run in a straight line
October 14th 2009 @ 6:31pm
Dave1 said | October 14th 2009 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
shoulder charges arent wussy and you have them in AFL as well