NZ rugby’s greatest 50 All Blacks
Roar Guru By Sam Taulelei, 5 Sep 2009 Sam Taulelei is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, andrew mehrtens, Anton Oliver, Carl Hayman, Daniel Carter, Grant Fox, John Kirwan, Jonah Lomu, Justin Marshall, Rugby Union, Sean Fitzpatrick, Tana Umaga
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding greatest teams recently and NZ Rugby World magazine took on the challenge of publishing New Zealand’s 50 greatest All Blacks in their latest edition.
Selecting just 50 players was the responsibility of former All Black selector Peter Thorburn, NZRW columnist Martin Devlin and magazine editor Gregor Paul.
The following criteria were used to whittle the list to 50:
• Each player had to be perceived to have upheld the core values of the All Blacks
• He had to have made a contribution either through a specific act or years of achievement
• He had to have mastery of his position.
• Current All Blacks would not be selected as it was too difficult to place their achievements in context when their careers hadn’t ended, However, exceptions were made for Richie McCaw, Daniel Carter and Carl Hayman, who it was agreed had already delivered too much to be ignored.
However these three players were excluded from the top 10 which was agreed should be reserved exclusively for those who had hung up their boots.
While they compiled their top 50 over the past three months, they also invited their readers to vote online for their top 10 All Blacks. Space and copyright prevents me from including the explanations for each player’s inclusion, but here are the NZ Rugby World’s greatest 50 All Blacks:
50 – Dave Loveridge
49 – John Gallagher
48 – Walter Little
47 – Josh Kronfeld
46 – Olo Brown
45 – Robin Brooke
44 – Carl Hayman
43 – Peter Jones
42 – Tiny White
41 – Grant Fox
40 – Waka Nathan
39 – Anton Oliver
38 – William Wallace
37 – Stu Wilson
36 – Cliff Porter
35 – Kevin Skinner
34 – Joe Stanley
33 – Ron Jarden
32 – Kel Tremain
31 – Johnny Smith
30 – Bert Cooke
29 – Jeff Wilson
28 – Bruce Robertson
27 – Justin Marshall
26 – Bob Scott
25 – Dave Gallagher
24 – Graham Mourie
23 – Andy Haden
22 – Andrew Mehrtens
21 – Ian Jones
20 – Dan Carter
19 – Ian Kirkpatrick
18 – Tana Umaga
17 – Wilson Whineray
16 – Frank Bunce
15 – Maurice Brownlie
14 – John Kirwan
13 – Brian Lochore
12 – Sid Going
11 – Richie McCaw
10 – George Nepia
9 – Christian Cullen
8 – Bryan Williams
7 – Sean Fitzpatrick
6 – Buck Shelford
5 – Zinzan Brooke
4 – Michael Jones
3 – Don Clarke
2 – Jonah Lomu
1 – Colin Meads
Reader’s results
10 – Tana Umaga
9 – Buck Shelford
8 – Zinzan Brooke
7 – Jonah Lomu
6 – Dan Carter
5 – Michael Jones
4 – Christian Cullen
3 – Sean Fitzpatrick
2 – Richie McCaw
1 – Colin Meads
Not surprisingly, readers’ favourites tended to concentrate on players from the modern era. However, the same four players from the 1987 World Cup winning side are included in both top 10’s – Shelford, Brooke, Jones and Fitzpatrick.
What I wouldn’t give to watch some of these players play again.
Recommend this story.
September 5th 2009 @ 2:31am
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 5th 2009 @ 2:31am | Report comment
Here’s my take on this. It’s better for people in their own country’s to make their own XV. For example I can assure you there aren’t many people in England who know who Cyril Towers, Trevor Allen or Col Windon are. So here’s the top 10 best New Zealand players from the smartest rugby bloke I know from New Zealand.
Colin Meads
Kel Tremain
Brian Lochore
Sean Fitzpatrick
Zinzan Brooke
Michael Jones
Sid Going
Ken Gray
George Nepia
Don Clarke
Actually if I was going to take a stab at this I don’t who to cull. My own ignorance of many great All Black sides aside, it’s really difficult to split hairs. How you do split some of the following players like Kirkpatrick and Tremain? Lochore and Brooke? Going or Laidlaw? Should Loveridge be in there?
September 12th 2009 @ 4:11pm
stuff happens said | September 12th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Frank O’K as a Welshman and belatedly I think this is a great list with the addition of Richie McCaw ( which you mention later in the discussion) and Buck Shelford.
FYI – Meads, Tremain, Ken Gray & Michael Jones would be in my greatest team from all countries since I’ve been watching rugby ( a long time!) .Nobody better than any of them from anywhere.
September 5th 2009 @ 2:47am
mattamkII said | September 5th 2009 @ 2:47am | Report comment
Jesus, Justin Marshall @ 27?
I actually think its perhaps too early for DC, RM and Big Karl to be included even in the top 50.
I remember taking to a pommy mate of mine after RWC 2003 when he claimed Jonny Wilkinson as the greatest Number 10 of all time. My comment was “easy on mate, he’s only played 3 season of top class rugby. What if he gets injured and never really plays top notch footy ever again”
Thats a true story BTW.
Anyway, while Jonny may come back yet, he will never be able to get in enough games as a world class fly half to go close to even Englands best ever.
Maybe the Kiwi boys are different…I dunno I just prefer it when they retire.
September 5th 2009 @ 3:02am
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 5th 2009 @ 3:02am | Report comment
Yikes!
If Richie McCaw isn’t one of the 50 All Blacks ever then they must’ve had around 30 players I’ve never heard of. I’m one of those people who have a high regard for what players have done in past generations. For example I pick Col Windon and Trevor Allen in my all-time Australian XV based on what they meant to Australian rugby in their time.
But when I read about the accomplishments of players like Waka Nathan, Kel Tremain, Ian Kirkpatrick etc, I honestly don’t see how their legacies compare much to McCaw’s, who was the best player in the world from 2004-2008. That’s a long time! If he wasn’t the best player in the World then he was only second to Carter. I think he was better than Carter.
I remember that Blesidloe Test in Brisbane in 2006 when Mortlock made a break and offloaded to Mark Gerrard. McCaw outsprinted Gerrard to chase him down, got to his feet, and Gerrard got pinged for holding the ball. But to me the definitive McCaw moment occurred in 2008 when the All Blacks had lost two on the trot and all sorts of pressure was being put on Henry. George Smith was, by a large margin, the MOTM against South Africa in Perth and the All Blacks in Sydney (when he came against Daniel Braid) and in the best form I’d seen him in since 2004. McCaw mastered him! People like to say McCaw plays in a strong pack, but look how well the pack played without him and then how well they played with him. It’s not McCaw plays with a good pack, McCaw’s a great player who had such an organising influence on the pack that they play better with him. George Smith fell to pieces in that game and gave away penalty after penalty. That’s the McCaw influence.
The Welsh love to talk about how JPR Williams never lost a game to England, and how in his time the Welsh never lost at the Arms Park (except to New Zealand) during the 70s.
I think the modern equivelant is McCaw beating Australia 10 out of the 11 times he’s played them, and New Zealand not losing at Eden Park since I don’t know when.
And honestly I think McCaw’s records are more impressive than JPR’s.
—-
Carl Hayman leaving for the UK was a huge disappointment for rugby because I can’t recall a time, although there probably was one, where a prop stood-out above the rest of the world as much as he did. I actually thought he was the best player of the 2007 World Cup right until New Zealand were eliminated. Their scrum against Scotland was scary.
September 5th 2009 @ 4:06am
Knives Out said | September 5th 2009 @ 4:06am | Report comment
‘Carl Hayman leaving for the UK was a huge disappointment for rugby because I can’t recall a time, although there probably was one, where a prop stood-out above the rest of the world as much as he did. I actually thought he was the best player of the 2007 World Cup right until New Zealand were eliminated. Their scrum against Scotland was scary.’
I can’t knock that, Frank. He was/is an astonishingly good player but the world of propping is like boxing. Matches make styles. Hayman sometimes struggled with Du Randt but I saw Du Randt get massively stuffed on occasion. The ‘Mighty Mouse’, Robert Paparemborde and Graham price were trend setters in the amateur era, as was Jeff Probyn. The thing is that it’s currently harder to become more special as the average standard has risen, whereas the reverse was true in the amateur era. Everybody can bench press the same etc, thus those players with that extra ‘bit’ really do excel but sometimes find it harder to stand out. Andrew Sheridan is physically capable like Hayman but doesn’t have the mentality of a prop. Martin Castrogiovanni is another player who could be special. They all have a similar physical build.
August 25th 2010 @ 4:38pm
abnutta said | August 25th 2010 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Waka Nathan played 14 test matches for the All Blacks between 1962 and 1967 and won them all in an era where there was not a soft test match in the bunch. He was panther like in his tackling and anticipation. Ian Kirkpatrick (115 trys) and Kel Tremain (143 trys) were try scoring marvels in their day and their first class try scoring statistics would put modern day wingers to shame. Kirkpatrick scored 16 in 39 tests as a forward… a record that took Zinzan Brooke 57 tests to break.
September 5th 2009 @ 3:05am
Todd Day said | September 5th 2009 @ 3:05am | Report comment
Meads
Whinneray
Jones (Micheal)
Nepia
Lochore
Lomu
Olo Brown
Buck Shelford
Tremaine
Carter
September 5th 2009 @ 7:27am
hammer said | September 5th 2009 @ 7:27am | Report comment
I’d have Mark Shaw in there somewhere and always thought Donaldson was better than Loveridge – but both were better than Marshall
September 7th 2009 @ 2:14pm
True Tah said | September 7th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
On what basis would you have Cowboy in there, he was a grub!
Plus I think he was appointed All Blacks media manager at one stage and abused the press, is that upholding the core values of the All Blacks?
September 5th 2009 @ 7:30am
sheek said | September 5th 2009 @ 7:30am | Report comment
Sam,
Good stuff. Pretty awesome list. I must confess I don’t agree with compiling alltime teams like this. How do you say a scrumhalf played better than a prop (over time), or a lock was better than a winger, etc. Players ought to be compared position to position.
I reckon it should be done in teams – groups of 15. So if you were looking for the best 50 players, you select 3 x 15s, plus an extra 5.
Nevertheless, good stuff.
September 5th 2009 @ 8:37am
ohtani's jacket said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Wouldn’t have included Gallagher, Little, Oliver or Porter. Marshall, Merhts, Umaga and Bunce are too high. Cullen and Williams being in the top 10 is iffy.
September 5th 2009 @ 8:40am
sheek said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Oj,
Inclined to agree with you (for once!).
September 5th 2009 @ 8:51am
ohtani's jacket said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
I’m sure it’s not the first time
Ken Gray is a good call. It can’t have been an oversight since they chose so many of his contemporaries.
September 5th 2009 @ 8:39am
sheek said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Based on my argument these selections should be made by teams, the first tight-head prop to appear is Kevin Skinner at #35. Many keen rugby students will tell you the two most important positions in rugby are tight-head prop & reserve tight-head! There are only 4 props selected at nos 17, 35, 44 & 46.
And no Ken Gray, how does that work?
Anyway, an alltime XV (plus bench) based on positions is as follows:
15-Don Clarke(3)
14-Bryan Williams(8)
13-Frank Bunce(16)
12-Tana Umaga(18) v/captain
11-Jonah Lomu(2)
10-Dan Carter(20)
9-Sid Going(12)
8-Zinzan Brooke(5)
7-Michael Jones(4)
6-Ian Kirkpatrick(19)
5-Maurice Brownlie(15)
4-Colin Meads(1)
3-Kevin Skinner(35)
2-Sean Fitzpatrick(7)
1-Wilson Whineray(17) captain
Bench:
22-Christian Cullen(9)
21-Andrew Mehrtens(22)
20-Justin Marshall(27)
19-Buck Shelford(6)
18-Richie McCaw(11)
17-Carl Hayman(44)
16-Anton Oliver(39)
Gee, plenty of keen debate, I reckon! Spoilt for choices.
September 5th 2009 @ 5:43pm
jeznez said | September 5th 2009 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Reckon there are seven guys in here I’ve heard of but never seen, if they were of the same quality as the fifteen guys on your list I have heard of then that would be an insanely good outfit. I know its all navel gazing, pie in the sky stuff but just imagining the footy these sorts of all-time teams would be able to play makes me smile.
September 5th 2009 @ 8:42am
Knives Out said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Where’s the love for Reuben Thorne?
September 5th 2009 @ 8:49am
sheek said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
No….. that’s Reuben Jane….. but you might be too young to remember that song!
Go Kenny Rogers………
September 5th 2009 @ 6:12pm
Jerry G said | September 5th 2009 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
He’s there – you just CAN’T SEE HIM.
September 5th 2009 @ 8:59am
Jerry G said | September 5th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
John Kirwan needs to be in the top 10 in my opinion. At his peak, he was a huge match winner. And let’s not forget, he was player of the tournament in 87.