So, in the end, I guess The German And The English football are the best… both have their pro and cons.

Also the Bundeliga will have again 4 starters for the campions leauge.

Proper footballing nations such as Spain, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, even Belgium and Scotland are totally ambivalent to the soulless sideshow and tourist-trap that is english football. English football has players clamouring to get in for 1 reason only… money. It pays fortunes to players many of whom are slightly better than average.

For football with real soul, where communities support their local team en-masse… no Cockney Reds, or Belfast Liverpool fans…then the Bundesliga reigns supreme. Yes, Bayern are the big guns financially, but this is a league that regularly has half a dozen sides contending seriously… this is a league where attacking football reigns supreme. This is the biggest supported league in the world…. and most clubs are owned by the fans, not an arab billionaire, an icelandic hedge fund, or a russian oligarch. 51% of a club in Germany has to remain in fan ownership. This obviously limits the spending power of the league, but it also keeps football affordable for the ordinary punter.

Bayern won the Big cup this season, and almost all of the German national team play domestically. They aren’t favourites for the World Cup, but they are likely to be real contenders…. and few people would bet serious money against them making the semis or even the final.

Bundesliga. Home of the biggest number of ‘Big Games’ in any league… Bayern-Schalke, Dortmund-Schalke, Dortmund-HSV, HSV-Bremen, Schalke-Leverkeusen, Dortmund-Leverkusen, Dortmund-Bayern, HSV-Bayern, HSV-St Pauli, Nurnberg-Bayern, etc etc. From a football fan’s perspective, the best league in the world in my opinion, ( and I am not German, and have never lived there.)

But the fans in the top leagues – at least those from abroad – are in 99% of cases fans of teams who finish regularly at the top and don`t qualify for the CL once in 10 years at the most – as does Bayern in Germany. But it depends upon your point of view: you could regard the players of other teams as mentally weak and the players at the elite clubs as mentally strong. But aren`t the fans of clubs who are in a constant rollercoaster ride between qualifying for the CL, fighting against relegation, relegation, promotion, mid-table mediocricy and challenge for the Europa League themselves mentally stronger than fans of a stable club. If you prefer chaos over stability and enjoy reading Nietzsche the Bundesliga is your paradise.

I don`t think that the weakness of defences in the Bundesliga is the sole reason for the high scores. And I don`t think that the low scores in the French league are solely the product of good defending. There is also a mentality to finish off the opponent and score another goal after going ahead instead of sitting back. The Bundesliga defences used to be top-class in Europe until they were tactically outdated at the end of the 90s. It took almost ten years to change the “German” libero system to a defence with 4 defenders. But now the output of young defenders is fine again, although they still lack experience.

“and SUPPOSEDLY the fans, I asked a friend about this before, an avid supporter of Karlsruhe and he even said himself that the German’s pale in comparison to english fans. ”

England in general and also English football has always had a positive reputation in Germany. The resentments coming from England and even the football rivalry are rather one-sided. So there is nothing surprising about a German saying something positive about England/English football. But whether it is justified is another question…

I would say that this is not only exciting but also a sign for a balanced league.

And again, the excitement and quality of the league wouldn`t improve if the German players went abroad. And neither will the reputation of the Bundesliga. If they fail to produce in another league, it would be depicted as a sign of weakness of the Bundesliga – if they succeed, people will say that the Bundesliga has lost quality due to his departure. The exodus of French players hasn`t helped the French league and neither will the Russian league profit from the ongoing departure of its best players. If you want to understand the developments of the different leagues you need to dig into the underlying football economics. The Bundesliga has improved financially and is now on par with Serie A and La Liga – athough the wealth in the Bundesliga is more evenly distributed than in those two leagues. If you consider that Germany has the biggest sponsorship market in Europe it is only logical that members of the German national team usually earn more in their homeland than they might do abroad.

And Odonkor has never been regarded as the next best thing in Germany – only by Germans who followed football for the first time during the WC in 2006.

“Every manager is a personality, everyone from the chariman to the groundsmen makes his views public”

I totally agree on this one. Bayern are probably the worst of the lot, but unfortunately it can be seen across the league.

Also, when I can, I will make the effort to watch Spanish football on the internet, and there are some great games there.

I also found the English Blue Square Premier more entertaining than the Bundesliga. Being a fan of a lower league club, I enjoy that type of football anyway, but it was more physical and intense than the German league.

This is how I see it, less quality than the big three (Serie A, La Liga and the EPL), and less intense and physical than the other football I enjoy (Lower league and the Blue Square Premier).

I agree, The Bishop, that it was a throw away line however one throw away line deserved another.

Surely you’ve noticed this, by now.

Oh and if anyone was wondering was Pim was doing on the weekend the highlights package showed that he was watching Nurnberg (Spiranovic et al) and chatting to other managers in the stands.

It was you who insinuated that the Bundesliga was dominated by Bayern and therefore not exciting, but when Mr Sapphire pointed out that the Premier League has been dominated just as much by Manchester United, you’ve now changed your tune?

One rule for some and another for others, eh?

You quite obviously have no first hand experience of the Bundesliga or the EPL and have just tried to back up you’re comments with a statistic which means very little.

I think Freud has over-analysed thing judging by the amount of words he has contributed on this subject. I also have trouble understanding his concept of “excitement”

Freud conveniently does not mention Man U have won 11 titles in the same time that Bayern have won 9. Based on that statiscal fact you can quite confidently say that the EPL is less exciting.

It must have been more exciting for a Man U supporters went 25 years without winning a title.

Don’t you agree SigMan U Freud?

I would be surprised if Hoffenheim or Leverkusen win it this time round, Hamburg maybe but the former are simply not equipped for the marathon of a league campaign as evidenced by Hoffenheims 2nd half to last season.

When I think of excitement I think of football I don’t think of players who can’t keep their heads together for two weeks in a row, as I said, the only reason there is such a high goals-game ratio is poor defense and players who are mentally weak in comparison with those in the top leagues where a 2-0 becomes a 4-0 because the players lose their heads.

Defensive mistakes aren’t exciting to me at least and no-one has come up with any reason as to why the Bundesliga is so exciting other than the amount of goals scored and SUPPOSEDLY the fans, I asked a friend about this before, an avid supporter of Karslruhe and he even said himself that the German’s pale in comparison to english fans.

German fans are loyal, well-informed and passionate but in England it seems to be on another level all together and the football, well it’s certainly of a higher quality, it’s somewhat a personal thing. I have some Italian friends and they find defensive football beautiful and while they concede that the EPL is currently of a better standard, they find a cagey 1-0 more exciting than Arsenal romping Everton 6-1

But you seem to think that clubs compete for prestige and fans rather than titles. As far as the Bundesliga is concerned, I wouldn`t be surprised if Hoffenheim, Leverkusen or Hamburg win it this time. But in your way of thinking that wouldn`t be exciting as it would constitute Hoffenheim`s/Leverkusen`s first title and Hamburg doesn`t come close to Bayern`s trophy collection either. And it won`t be exciting as long as none of those teams wins 20 titles in a row.

But I have some serious issues with your understanding of excitement…

Barcelona and Real Madrid are generally very close.

The EPL has Chelsea and Man Utd and previously Liverpool who are getting up there again.

Serie A with Juve, Inter and Milan

Who competes with Bayern? No other club has their prestige in the land, it’s probably the only team supported across the country.

Just because they haven’t been successful of late doesn’t make the league more uncertain.

If I could also make a generalisation which won’t apply in all cases but is pertinent nonetheless – People from continental Europe have to learn foreign languages in school and it is stricter than in England. What this means is that your average English EPL Player probably only speaks English which will make the move abroad less appealing whereas the Dutch for example are more or less all fluent in English and a high percentage speak very good German.

The Eastern Europeans are the same, many learn German and that’s why there are so many Polish/Czech/Bulgarian etc players in the Bundesliga as that’s what they often learn in school, it makes the transition so much easier.

Of course this isn’t the only reason but it’s certainly part of it. Lucas Neill recently had this problem even.

Back in your box

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#League_coefficient

http://www.iffhs.de/?b6e28fa3002f71504e52d17f7370eff3702bb1c2bb11

Freud’s point is therefore valid.

As for a team like Wolfsburg winning, well they had the ex Bayern Manager at the helm, very good financial backing from local sponsor VW and assembled a good squad, it was as much other teams falling apart around them that led them to the title as their own good play.

How are EPL fans more entertaining than the Bundesliga fans?
Do the German chants get lost in translation for you.
Are the flags and the choreography in the terraces that you see in in the Bundesliga are too much for you. Get off your English highhorse, your crediblity is taking a battering.