By Wayne of Windale -
September 25th 2009 @ 12:43am
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It’s time for league and union to merge
Rugby league and rugby union are currently battling it out in a downward spiral of falling popularity, relentless tales of off field barbarism and vulgarity, scarcity of financial resources and a shrinking base of on-field talent.
The two codes are also beleaguered by inherent flaws, which detract from them as spectacles in an ever increasingly competitive sporting market.
Ironically, many of these flaws, such as scrums in Rugby League and constant kicking in Rugby Union, are unique to each code. However, attempting to rectify these flaws would require the game’s administrators to make rule changes which would bring the codes closer together.
This would be unpopular to purists and would make the codes more homogeneous and less distinguishable. These flaws would easily be eliminated in the rule changes of a combined code.
The pool of player talent, combined with sponsorship and pay television revenue, would mean that the sky is the limit for a combined code.
Rugby’s Super 14 and World Cup at the international level and the domestic NRL structure as the basis for the domestic competition.
A combining of the codes would assist the following problems for Rugby League;
* lack of international appeal and meaningful international fixtures
* risk in expansion within Australia
* it’s lack of professional media presentation
* need for a more revitalised and more entertaining style of play
Benefits for Rugby Union in its present form would be;
* domestic club rugby would be re-born using a revamped NRL structure as the base
* large expansion of junior territory and resources
* improved pool of players at international level
* a more revitalised and entertaining style of play
The separation of Rugby League and Rugby Union represent a 110 year old pay dispute.
The source of this dispute is long gone. Both codes are now fully professional at their elite levels and are paid large sums from the same source in Foxtel.
Of course, it would be difficult to come upon an agreed set of rules for the game, as well as the acceptance by other countries. But change is difficult to accept.
Sometimes it just has to occur.
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Amband said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:46am | Report comment
they will never merge. Why would a world wide game like Union merge with a sport played in parts of 4 countries?
No, if anything league will collapse and Union will emerge as the only game
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:14am | Report comment
Wishful thinking on your part and a nonsense article. League will grow far apart from union and be all the better for it. Union should make a few changes to clean up the ruck but it’s a fine game as it is. Why people desire sporting monoculture I’ll never understand.
Chop said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
yeah Jeff Union is firing on all cylinders isn’t it? There will be a bigger crowd to the Eels v Bulldogs tonight as there were for the Wannabies v All Blacks….
They will never merge but Amband, you are well and truely deluded if you think that League will collapse, wishful thinking from the Union crowd.
As a massive fan of both codes I just don’t understand the Union Fans Superiority complex.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
as a fan of both codes. did you compared the crowds of the eels/bulldogs game to the kangaroo’s/kiwis game ?
eastgate said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
I always have a chuckle at the constant flow of articles devoted to union on this website – totally disproportionate to the sport’s relevance in Australia.
Spencer said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:59pm | Report comment
That’s because this site is part of the World Wide Web…not the Australia Wide Web…or the “East Coast of Oz-New Zealand-Northern England-PNG Wide Web”…
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:31am | Report comment
And Wales where this league fan lives.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:54am | Report comment
the wallabies has done more to advertise australia into the world than both the nrl and kangaroos. why shouldn’t they devoted articles to rugby union ?
megatron said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:47am | Report comment
As someone who lives in a state in which neither Rugby code rates, this is common sense
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:29am | Report comment
That’s like me saying “I don’t know anything about AFL or Soccer – so for them to merge is common sense”. What an insular view.
AndyRoo said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
And pretty much you could use the same tin pot arguments as this article
“in a downward spiral of falling popularity”
Both the HAL and the AFL have seen crowds drop on last year. Sure the AFL lost only 2% after years of growth but if that trend continues in 50 years the MCG will be empty in September!
“relentless tales of off field barbarism and vulgarity”
Brendon Favola and Robbie Cornflake
“scarcity of financial resources”
Port Power and Adelaide Reds could both do with some extra dollars
“a shrinking base of on-field talent”
The HAL is always losing players overseas and um Mathew Lloyd just retired!
“Ironically, many of these flaws, such as scrums in Rugby League and constant kicking in Rugby Union”
Much easier to merge the HAL and AFL in this regard, they both suffer from constant kicking!
A combining of the codes would assist the following problems for AFL;
* lack of international appeal and meaningful international fixtures
* risk in expansion within Australia
* need for a more revitalised and more entertaining style of play
* More teams in regional areas like the Central Coast and Townsville that would increase those pesky regional TV ratings.
No need for me to justify the style of play, just take it as a given. After all if the style of play needs revitalising for Rugby league, which has had it’s best on field season in recent memory then obviously AFL could benefit from a touch up too.
Benefits for the HAL in its present form would be;
* domestic club Football would be re-born using a revamped AFL structure as the base
* large expansion of junior territory and resources
* a more revitalised and entertaining style of play
* FTA coverage.
I can’t see any flaws in this logic
Anyway got to go, and apply for a job at the Daily Telegraph . Have a great weekend fellas.
Freud of Football said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:09am | Report comment
…Cue the League/Union fanatics to drag the AFL into this…
Didn’t you know Wayne, you can’t write “Rugby League”, “Rugby Union”, “off field barbarism” and “vulgarity” in one paragraph here on The Roar – that’s bound to set them off in a collective “yeah but the AFL they do blablahblah” rant.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Paranoid much?
Redb said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
pot, kettle, black.
No fan is more paranoid at the moment than a RL fan.
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
RedB what took you so long to have a shot at NRL fans?
Karlos said | September 27th 2009 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
Arrgh Redb, you must have been screaming at the television when the AFLcommentators likened the Grand Final to a heavyweight bout. I bet you were almost physically sick with all that violence being pomoted. Or are ou somehow able to turn a blind eye on this occasion?
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Very passive aggressive introduction of your AFL arguement freud thankyou for speeding up the degeneration.
sam.gilbert said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:11am | Report comment
i dont think it would ever happen. what about a country like south africa? or almost all rugby playing nations.. one of the biggest union nations in the world wouldnt play the hybrid game, in fact the only place it would benefit anyone is australia.
ive read a lot on this idea, wouldve been better if youd explained this more, like what parts of each code to keep and take away, how many players on the field etc.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:45am | Report comment
The scrum in rugby league isn’t flawed, it does its job perfectly adequately.
You also say the reason for the original split was because of a pay dispute, that is inaccurate, the broken time issue was just one of several reasons for the split although, naturally, it was the one which the union writers seized upon in order to denigrate the nascent competition and its players. It might be the case that the reasons for the splut are now no longer relevant but they are now two distinct codes. A merger woiuld merely lead to three codes, not one.
tarpo said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:55pm | Report comment
Steffy,
We agree on very little. but I do agree with you here, a merger would lead to three codes.
Both Rugby League & Rugby Union are legitimate games in their own right & viva la difference.
Let each enjoy their own.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
Quite
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:24pm | Report comment
Thats right. We just have to look at touch rugby and all the tags that is now run by their own national and international body.
Billo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:12am | Report comment
Looking at the future of the two rugby codes just in Australia, league seems to have by far the better prospects for future dominance.
Its club game is streets ahead of rugby’s equivalent, despite having the lousy administration that you point out.
Its international game is nowhere near rugby’s, but it is developing, with a World Cup last year that had a high entertainment value, and one planned for England in 2013. It is likely to make up some ground on rugby, while not fully catching up for a long time.
There are only two major cities in Australia that don’t have league teams, and Perth looks ready to host a club by the time the next TV deal is agreed.
Domestically, the areas in which league falls down should be relatively easy to fix. The administration is getting slowly better at club level, and that should force changes at the NRL; News Limited will eventually withdraw from the game, meaning that the conflict of interest that league suffers from will disappear, enabling it to negotiate much better TV and new media deals.
Rugby, in comparison, has one key brand – the Wallabies – and if they aren’t firing the whole game suffers, while the ARU doesn’t have control of its domestic competition, which it has to share with SARU and NZRU.
Australian rugby had a terrific opportunity to put a viable domestic competition in place after the 2003 World Cup, but John O’Neill’s post-World Cup planning was like the Americans’ in Iraq after they invaded there.
You always have to strike when the iron is hot, but the ARU, under O’Neill, didn’t. That’s why I’m surprised that the ARU re-hired O’Neill to have a second go at it. With the Melbourne Super 14 debacle he is now showing that you should never return to your previous employment. We’ve paid a high price for that lack of foresight by the ARU.
Jay said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Couldnt have said it better Billo.
I love both RU and RL. What one lacks, the other one complements for, and in theory a merger would sound great but you only have to look at the international rules in AFL to know that a hybrid game will not work beyong a showpiece event. In the comming years, I can see a Kangaroos v Wallabies or a Kiwis v All Blacks purley for additional revenue and as a curtain raiser (ala the Barbarians match… player payments is a whole different story) but not much more than that.
Plus you wont get the IRB to agree to the ELV’s let alone a wholy reconstruction of the game!
I recall that John O’Neil mentioned on the outsiders last year that he views that there will be only 3 viable football codes in Australia in the future. That will include football, AFL and either RU or RL. I disagree.
At the moment Id have to say RU and RL are stong in their own ways. The NRL have had a great season and hopefully with an improved TV deal, they will have the financial coffers to match the RU on the junior and marquee player recruitment through an increase of the salary cap and expand to create a national competition like the AFL.
RU is also expanding – revamped S15s and trinations format. I love both codes and think they are fine the way they are.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Now that you finish your union/league research on Australia please do tell us about both codes in Wales, France, New Zealand, Argentina, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, South Africa, Ireland, England, Russia, Georgia, Namimbia, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, USA, Canada, Cook Islands, India, Uruguay, Niue, New Caledonia, Tahiti, American Samoa, Hawaii, Madagascar, Uganda, Kenya, Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Korea, Chile, Jamaica and so on.
If you problems with your rugby league research in most of those countries mention above I’ll be more than happy to let you know how rugby union is going there.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Outside of Wales, NZ and a few Pacific Islands where is Rugby the No.1 football code? Its a nieche international game. If I want to watch an international football code I watch Soccer.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:37am | Report comment
It is the national sport and a popular sport in England, ireland, south africa, argentina, japan, italy, france, cook island, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Wales, New Zealand, scotland, madagascar, sri lanka and a popular sport to play in over 100 countries.
lets put this way. rugby league world champions new zealand has only 15,000 league players. there are over 70 countries playing rugby union that has more than 15,000 union players. that says a lot.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
As I said, a minor international sport, probably in the top 20 sports, barely.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
apart from soccer who do you think are the other major team sports on this earth ?
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Team sports that are bigger than Rugby;
Football
Basketball
Baseball
Handball
Volleyball
Ice Hockey
American Football
Cricket
Just off the top of my head
Rin said | October 8th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Absolute Crap – Fact- Rugby World Cup is the 3rd biggest sporting event in the world after the Olympics and Soccer World Cup as recorded during the 2007 World Cup in France. (Wikipedia)
Ice Hockey ha ha
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
I didn’t know they only had 15,000 league players, how the hell did we lose the RL World Cup?!
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Thats why Sparc stop funding going over to rugby league because they were bankrupted and wasting Sparc funding buying pubs and pokie machines instead of helping the numbers grow.
Sparc told them to change or see the sport die altogether .
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Team sports that are bigger than Rugby;
Football
Basketball
Baseball
Handball
Volleyball
Ice Hockey
American Football
Cricket
Just off the top of my head
missing link i think your having us on bro. your more paranoid than I thought. Your hatred for rugby union is the reason you didn’t put it on that list.
any five to four years old will know that rugby union is the number one team contact sport on this planet. Even bigger than American Football.
The Link said | October 8th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
So what’s your point – all of these sports are at the Olympics except the last two. Is Rugby bigger than the NFL and Cricket?
Norm said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
Rugby is NOT the national sport of England,Ireland,Argentia,Japan,Italy,France,Scotland,Madagascar & Sri Lanka. In South Africa it is the white man’s game and anywhere else it’s a novelty sport.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:22am | Report comment
He said it was a popular sport in England,Ireland,Argentia,Japan,Italy,France,Scotland,Madagascar & Sri Lanka.
He referred to the other nations like NZ, South Africa, Wales, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Islands and New Zealand as their national sport.
Those black guys running around for the springboks and the south africa 7’s team must be yellow then.
the provinces going against melbourne for a super 15 franchise the southern kings from the eastern cape have 250,000 black rugby union players. thats more than all the australian rugby league register players.
Sth Auckland 1st XV said | February 4th 2010 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
Rugby is not the white mans game in Sth Africa – just look at any rugby game and the crowd is pretty evenly split black and white so get your facts right mungo champ
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:27am | Report comment
“Rugby league and rugby union are currently battling it out in a downward spiral of falling popularity” – yeah? This year the NRL had the second highest crowd average in its 101 year history. Why would Union give up its worldwide dominance because Australian Rugby Union is dying? Why would League give up its Australian dominance to prop up the ARU? The scrum in Rugby League is not a flaw, it serves the purpose of drawing in defenders. I would rather watch one quick scrum than 12 reset ones, followed by a penalty. If anything the scrum is the biggest flaw in Union.
As a Union fan I would hate to see it happen.
As a League fan I would hate to see it happen.
This would probably qualify as the most badly thought out article I have ever read on this website.
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:08am | Report comment
‘As a Union fan I would hate to see it happen.
As a League fan I would hate to see it happen.’
I’d have to agree with this statement.
However, can I throw this out for abit of discussion.
Can Jarred Hayne play for the Wallabies as well as the Eels?
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
While I would love to see it happen (and I’d also love to see Slater/Gasnier/Inglis/Lockyer/Folau in a Wallaby backline. or Giteau/Mortlock in a Kangaroo one) can you imagine the legal back and forth if he got injured playing for one team?
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Yes I agree with the legality matters & I too would doubt it would ever happen, it’s good to dream like you have Robbo (nice name BTW).
Imagine an Allblacks bomb disfused by Slater, one of the best open field runners of all time linking up with Inglis (with a palmoff)& Gasnier (with a shimmy) to put Folau over ,with 3 Allblacks hanging on, in the corner.
Or Mortlock running thru the middle of the Broncos forwards after a brillant inside ball by Giteau.
Brett McKay said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Robbo, Robbos, I thought you two were actually one and the same and you were just agreeing with yourself there for a minute…
Onto the article, can’t see any of this happening, this is only a problem in two states of one country in the world. Hardly a compelling argument…
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
..but Brett aren’t we the centre of the Universe?
Brett McKay said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
only if we’re America Pete..
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
One has to look carefully whenever one or the other is posting on the same thread!!
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
I’m the good looking one.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
I don’t doubt it!!
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
No. Why would you want to see a superstar like Hayne play for the Wallabies and be just a ordinary player who never sees the ball. Hopefully Gasnier and SBW return to league one day, so they can become the stars again they really are, union is the greatest let-down for league players. No room to shine in union. I will give you some examaples, our forwards, Watmough, Taylor, Stars, Our halves, Thurston Lockyer, Stars, Our Fullbacks and Wingers, Stars.
I cant name one Union star, the only one i can think of is Jonny Wilkinson and he’s a dropkick-er.
Hoy said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Oikee, just cause you can’t name a star doesn’t mean there are none. I can’t name too many handball stars, or Sailing stars.
I would imgaine Dan Carter is a star, Richie McCaw is a star, Matt Giteau rightly or wrongly, is a perceived star, etc.
I am sick to bloody death of this argument. They are two different games. Having played both, I would much rather be a back in union than a back in league.
Lets just recognise they are two different games and get on with it.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Gave yourself away their Hoy, you must be soft.
Every man and his dog knows union backs get colds and the only ball they see is on the Big Screen. 
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Oikee, there are a lot of gys out there who have played Union and League. I did. I enjoy watching League (and Union), but I love playing Union. You have to think a lot more during the game, as opposed to running and being tackled at such velocity that your brain tries to work its way out of your eye sockets… No doubt League players need to be tough, but backs in Union aren’t necessarily the ‘wooses’ you think they are.
Imagine being brought down at high speed in a tackle and then having 16 forwards mistaking your body for the ball as they ruck and counter ruck… in that situation the shear weight of the forward pack on top of you… tries to push your brain out of your eye sockets… there is another similarity, perhaps they should merge
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Why would you want Hayne to play suburban footy when the world can see him do his thing?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
you can’t name any rugby union stars because there are too many playing all over the world for you to count.
Forwards like George Stowers, Jerry Collins, Rodney Soailo, Leem Neesan, Serge Besten, Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, Trevor Leota, Victor Vito, Jerome Kaino, Sione Lauaki and many more have more brains and skills than wife beater Watmough.
In the backs guys like Daniel Carter, Vilimoni Delasau, Napolioni Nalaga, Rubeni Caucau, Bryan Habana, Maa Nonu, Luke McAlister, Rico Gear, Riki Flutey, Frédéric Michalak and many more.
the fact is you named rugby league stars from one country show how small your game is.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Riki Flutey? He wouldn’t make the Roosters Under 20’s team! Caucau, Nonu, Habana and Carter are all awesome – just as good as anyone in League. The other guys you mentioned would be average club players in the NRL.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Robbo
Your obviously not familar with Nalaga from Clermont then. He would be an absolute standout in the NRL.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
you haven’t seen half of them played. you haven’t seen magners league, heineken cup, pacific cup, guiness premiership, top 14 and pro 2 matches. you haven’t seen the local competition in samoa, tonga and fiji so you won’t know what im on about.
lets put it this way. fijian rugby union players played in the police world cup and won the tournament where most of the players never played league.
samoan rugby union players were excuse from their clubs to make up a samoan rugby league team to face the hard png kumuls in a test match.
the samoan team made up of rugby union players only won and beat the png kumuls who played league all their lives. how do you explain that ?
AC said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:42am | Report comment
I personally couldn’t give a sh1te about stars and their egos. I prefer to see the big hard blokes putting in the heavy work to set up a platform so that someone decent outside them can finish it.
AS A TEAM.
Forward play used to be part of League, but modern League is a game that panders to the egos of these “stars” you talk about.
The two will never merge because League and Union’s philosophies on forward play have irrevocably diverged.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
So i guess your not a rugby fan. Thats why there more rugby union fans world wide than league. Keep the scrum fight coming. I don’t see you talking down the slow restart of American football. But then again why would you when millions and millions of Americans love watching that slow and boring game of theirs.
There are more people on this world that finds league boring than rugby and there are even more souls that finds league very very boring than soccer.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
So Hayne switches and he gets a bigger profile perhaps in 3-4 countries – watch out world!!!
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:42am | Report comment
SBW or Mark Gasnier are more popular now that they played rugby in France than the whole NRL and Rugby League put together.
Four countries…ha ha very funny. We are not talking about league here.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Name them. They were already big in Australia and NZ. Rugby is a nieche international game.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Mark Gasnier now plays in the Top 14 and in the Heineken Cup so he’s very well known in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, England, New Zealand and Australia. If he makes the Wallabies or the French team then he would be the most popular former league player ever.
thats way more than your four.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
mark gasnier is not well known in wales. sorry.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
mark gasnier is more well known in wales than any current nrl players because he’s involved with stade francais and in the heineken cup. don’t you agree jeff ?
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
not right now mate, the heineken cup hasnt started yet and the welsh arent obsessive about union players they havent seen yet. i suppose by default you are right buts thats just a bloody shame that a player like billy slater or israel folau isnt known. people are missing out.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Trevor – the average crowds in the NRL are more than double the Top 14 average.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
top14 has two divisions pro2.
Klestical said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
wayne has been ripped to shreds
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Wales, Scotland, France, England – perhaps a bigger profile in France, marginal in others
Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, New Zealand and Australia – profile is less.
Repeat after me – Rugby is a nieche international sport, no one really cares.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Repeat after me – Its the National Sport of New Zealand, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. Now repeat this words – You Shall Not Lie.
Phil O'Donovan said | October 8th 2009 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Tell that to the millions that watched and went to the last rugby world cup.Paris is slightly more exciting than Parramatta.
Gary said | September 26th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
League is only dominant in Queensland and New South Wales. Elsewhere in Australia it is a very minor part of the sporting callendar.
The Link said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Trevor – best to get out of the basement and get some enlgish lessons or perhaps some professional help. Where have I lied? If you cannot understand some simple sarcasm on Rugby in Jamaica its back to pre-school for you brother.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:27am | Report comment
God – not this again – an article with almost the exact same title seems to pop up about once ever six months.
Everytime it does, it always occurs to me that people simply aren’t thinking it through.
1. There appears to be little incentive for League to change all that much because its product already enjoys massive popularity. The international angle is a red herring – when it comes to club support – League has plenty, and that alone gaurantees success.
2. The merge question only ever arises in Austalia – it arises in no other rugby nation. The reason for that is simple – it is only in Australia where you have the very unique circumstance of League overshadowing Union. That being the case – why on Earth would the IRB give this even one second’s thought? They wouldn’t.
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Pip, while I 100% agree with what you are saying & the 2 sports will never merge.
However, the 2 pts you bring up is exactly why the discussions keep coming up.
1. Union wants the local popularity of League
2. League wants the int’l exposure of Union.
Hence my question, can Jarred Hayne play for both the Wallabies & the Eels?
Mick from Giralang said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
Pippinu, surely this article is a gee up?
Crosscoder said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment
One of the best fun articles around,”league with a downward spiral in popularity”.has to be the quote of the year.
71,000 plus attending a semi final,record crowds,TV ratings for SOO and double figure increases in FTA TV and domination of pay TV ratings.Increase of 6.8% in participation figures this year excluding schools.
Throw in expansion for the NRL being mooted for 2103.Throw in the growth in the popularity of the game in the Pacific islands.
Add the fact the game is now played throughout the UK at either junior,amateur,pro,semi pro,university and armed forces level.Crowds and TV ratings for rl are up in England.The French want another team in the ESL(Toulouse).The RFL has made annual profits 5 years in a row.
The game is now played in more countries ,than any time in its history.Merge with a game full of technicalities?
It would be like mating a greyhound with a poodle.
Anycase one of the big selling points for rl,is its simplicity,as ru players are finding out in countries such as Sth Africa and Jamaica and Wales.
The only time that rl should ever contemplate the dreaded thought of a merger,is when it is drawing its last breath.Judging by the state and growth of the game,it appears to have found the source of eternal life.
To the lazy and ignorant comment that rl is played in parts of 4 countries:PNG national game,Australia pro teams in 3 states and very popular in the NT,NZ 1 team,still played in Auckland/Wellington/Christchurch,Fiji,Tonga,Samoa(the latter 3 countries as I know it),France in the South,England pro teams concentrated in the north/pro team in London amateur teams everywhere,Wales pro team ,amateur teams spread around ,Lebanon national team,university teams and juniors.Just for starters.
Redb said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:18am | Report comment
“One of the best fun articles around,”league with a downward spiral in popularity”.has to be the quote of the year.”
Agree CC.
Rugby League is not in the same boat as rugby union in Australia. There is no reason for RL to get into bed with RU.
Redb
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Seriously though if you can’t pull 70K+ crowd for 2 Sydney clubs with probably the largest fanbase in Sydney in a Rugby League town for the 2nd biggest match in the RL calendar year (outside maybe SOO) with very very strong media attention, something is wrong.
I know this is a record but, lets put it into perspective, this is the major sport in this town, you would expect such a large crowd.
But I can see this comment comes from ,”league with a downward spiral in popularity’. In Melbourne, most people follow an AFL team, this is not the case in Sydney, not eveybody follows RL, alot are disenchanted with the game.
You go back 15 years ago, Sydneysiders followed RL like Melbourne followed AFL (maybe not as passionate) but still a huge following, I do not get the same vibe these days, it’s still got a strong following but it’s not as widespread amongst the non diehards.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Your dreams is getting very boring on here. When you do wake up please do talk about the other 100 countries that rugby union is played in.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
I’d hazard a guess and say Rugby is only played seriously in about 10-20 of those countries. Get a grip, its a nieche international sport. At least RL knows its place.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
of course you know your place when its only NSW, QLD, Yorkshire and Lancanstershire. South Africa has more rugby union players than rugby league players all over the world.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Your pipe smoking dream is getting very boring on here. When you wake up please do tell us about rugby league in over 100 countries that rugby is played.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
what is happening to rugby union compare to league in wales, south africa and jamaica crosscoder? i can’t wait for your response.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
dear god Rugby is bigger than League in Jamaica – stop the press!!
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
So why lied or make up buullshi* then ? rugby has 10 times more players than league in Jamaica. Why lie ?
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Remind me why it matters that Union has more players than League in Jamaica? Trevor, why do you hurt so much that you seek to defend Rugby in Jamaica? Watch out for Rugby League, its under your bed and coming to get you in marouding hordes
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
im not defending rugby im just telling the truth. if you keep lying then i’ll just come back and correct you. there’s a different between dreaming and reality.
The Link said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Trevor – where have I lied? Your dillusions have driven you to defend Rugby in Jamaica to prove some sort of point of which is not clear.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Trevor – language please! Could you and Siva stop being so confrontational! This isn’t a forum for code warfare – I love both games. They both have things that the other code cannot match. What we are discussing here is the idea of a merger of the codes – not which one is “better”.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Hehe, if NZ had as many rugby league players as Union does, it would be the most powerful rugby league nation on Earth, same applies to all those other wasted rugby union playing nations, all those players and yet their international game is no better than watching the Currie cup. ?
Union is wasting players that could be absolute stars if they played rugby league, wait on, they are not good enough to play league, Brad Thorn, a retired league player now a star for the All, Blacks, wake up man.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Majority of the kiwi’s playing in the nrl and kiwi’s international side were those who didn’t make into their school 1st XV in NZ.
So all those rugby union players were the best that New Zealand had and thats why the All Blacks are consider the best team and the most famous team in the world ever.
Brad Thorn played for the Crusaders and decided to switch back to league and was told he would never made the Broncos and too slow for the NRL. His first year back in rugby league he made the Queensland State Of Origin team. The pinnacle of rugby league.
The same was said about Wedall Sailor and Matt Rogers. Should I carry on ?
You wouldn’t want me to name more than twenty league players in the last couple of years who switch to rugby union in the northern hemisphere who fail and had to go back to league ?
I wish you wake up from that dream of yours man. Must be hard living in America with all those high schools, colleges and female all playing the popular version of the game.
Justin said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:56am | Report comment
Oh dear, this sort of stuff should be banned from the Roar.
All it does is bring out the peanuts who either bag the crap out of one code or another, say my game is better than yours, my sport is played in so many countries, look at the TV ratings blah blah farking blah!
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Justin, I don’t know what code you follow, but I’m certian my “blah blah farking blah” is better than you “blah blah farking blah”
MarkH said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:26am | Report comment
Mate, thats going to happen like a god botherer hanging around for the second coming. It would be fun, but its not going to happen anytime soon or there after.
The IRB with all its coin, makes in a week what RL makes in 10yrs. So in the end its a pipe dream. League is League and Union is Union.
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Australia and PNG are the only countries where RU would really benefit from merging with Rugby League. Do you think rugby players in Georgia, Argentina, Kenya, Japan, Madagascar, India are all going to change the game they play so the ARU can perhaps field a more competitive international side?
AndyRoo said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
There would be zero benefit to either code.
The only possible thing that I could think of was they could get together to market touch football in new markets, but they could be doing that anyway.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
have you seen how many different touch and many players from both codes now just preferred touch rugby ? we started touch for an off season for the players and now touch are in total competition with both codes and have their own governing body..
AndyRoo said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Touch is the best way to win over new markets where the egg ball is seen as foreign.
Requires less gear and no goal posts and women can play too. Get them used to the apssing and catching and constant running and then you can wean them on to the real stuff if their built for it.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Yeah Rugby in Australia is so interested in touch that they ban it from GPS schools – yes ban it.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Get a life bro. More lies wont help. How about all those talk about league players who cross codes should be ban from playing in the SOO or internationals ?
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
“The Link” is your middle name “Missing”
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
For schools to ban a sport takes a pretty blinkered view of the world, but such is the distain for anything linked to Rugby League in GPS Sydney schools. So what happened pre 95 if you went from Union to League Siva – wree you welcomed back with open arms?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
you must have been miss inform again. doesn’t help when you have many paranoia league fans who hate rugby union than vise versa.
many former rugby union and rugby league players came back to rugby pre 95 and got involve in rugby union again. don’t let the truth get in the way of your paranoia missing link.
Harry Callahan said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
NEVER !!!
MarkH said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
At the end of the day. I like both codes and merging would stuff my tipping. These questions not only silly but just gets everyone pumped for what?
Leave the codes alone. Go pick on NFL. Now that is a code in need of some help.
Manly Matt said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Wayne of Windale,
This is without doubt the worst article, the least well thought out, and the stupidest sports idea I have ever heard. I think all of the other comments thus far will tell you why, so there is no need for me to go in to it here.
But, whoever the administrators of The Roar are, need to take a good look at the articles that are put up on this site. The Roar has gained a lot of respect of late for it’s hard hitting, no nonsense articles that draws thoughful opinion and insight from real sports fans. This sort of rubbish will do nothing to enhance your reputation.
Rickety Knees said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Australia has a unique situation that applies to no other country, in that it not only has to compete with Futbol but also AFL and NRL. Rugby is the 4th most popular winter sport in Australia. Given the small pool of Rugby players available we actually do quite well. I often speculate just how good we would be if we were all to harness just the NRL talent but alas that will never be. There is no way that the IRB is going to change the rules of Rugby just to suit Australia. The Northern hemisphere scuttled the ELV’s without even trialing them, falsely believing that it was an Australian plot.
Rugby League will survive because of its tribalism and Rugby will survive inspite itself.
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Look at New Zealand Rugby League, which is in a hell of a lot more strife than Australian Rugby Union, and yet they are able to wreste the title of world champion from the pride of Australian rugby league.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
wayne of windale, all your article shows is that your knowledge of league and rugby is poor. On a lighter note, listening to radio national online last night, I heard an interview with wallaby Adam Freier who said the team no longer call league mungo, its new name for league in the wallaby camp is “mygameisbetta”
Rodney McDonell said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
I’m not going to read all that, but i did most of it. A few points.
1. Your premise that the codes need to merge because of falling popularity and player depth in rugby league and rugby union is flawed. I only see the “downward spiral of falling popularity” inherent in RU in Australia. Also from the News Articles i’ve read and the responces from those articles, it seems RU is not on the down in NZ but it certainly is amasing a credible number of critiques.
2. I agree the two codes combined in Australia would have a massive player depth + money to easily be able to combat a very strong AFL. Still, i think RL could do this without the money RU could bring it. I have no doubt that with the emergence of an independant body for the NRL the game will prosper.
3. You site the off field problems of rugby league as if they’ve had a negative impact on the sustainability of the NRL – when in fact all the statistics point the in the opposite directions. This has been the NRLs highest crowd pulling season and highest TV viewing season (the only code to increase crowds and tv figures this eyar).
Rugby Union needs some help. I don’t think an extra S14->S15 team will make a difference in Australia. If they want to brign more people to the game, starting playing more interesting opposition. I.e play England more, Wales, Ireland, Scottland, Argenina etc. There are many countries out there that would make great opposition for Australia and I’m sure people would watch it. Australia v NZ v SA is getting boring.
Ryan said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:19am | Report comment
As a fan of both codes i think the impact of what has happened off the field in league this year will not be felt for another 10 years. If i had had to choose today what i wanted my son to play i would have to say Union because of values that the most of the players seem to have. You only need to compare any player in the Wallabies to a comparable player in the Kangaroos to see my point. Unfortunately the exception to the rule in League is the minority and vice versa in Union
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Nice one Capt, well to tell you the truth, league followers are not that insecure, we dont even talk about the game called Union, you dug your own grave by being elitist. :_
Just to give everyone a point of example, take league in America, starting from now, if the yanks watch rugby league and then get shown some rugby union comp, they will be thinking that the union being shown must be the lower grade of the league players. Look its a sad tale, but its a very true tale. America is getting the Eels Bulldogs game tonite. May Union finally rest in peace.
No really, the top class union is All-blacks,wallabies. Put your hand up if you want more of this every year. Queenslander.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
a paranoid australian league fan dreaming again. why use america when you can use new zealand who has been bored to death with watching rugby league for over 100 years that there are only 15,000 league players left and rugby is even more popular than it was when it first started. American rugby is very strong with college rugby set to have their own competition and 7’s rugby going professional all they are waiting for is next week when rugby gets into the olympics game.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Siva, mate, They will never show American Rugby prime time over there, The NRL is the strongest comp in the world, i hate to dissapoint you there big fella, but Australia nearly has as big a Kiwi immigrant population as NZ, and they are all playing rugby league mate. Your Rugby comp is on a hiding to nowhere, the only guys that watch your Air NZ cup are Union diehards over hear. And man, they are dieing hard. The super 15 is nothing more than a watered down version of what drivel you just showed us with the tri nations.
Your All-black Wallaby game was belted for a 6 last week, nobody was watching, only a few diehards on FOX man. America is buying the rights for the NRL. You really need to turn off the lights when you move over to oz, have i mentioned to you that the Broncos are a powerhouse, the biggest rugby club in the world.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
last time i heard they show american vs canada rugby world cup game live on espn on primetime.
how many people in america have espn compared to spike lee tv ? how many rugby union players, college, high schools, woman, clubs are there in american compared to a couple of pub teams in league ? please to tell us. i’ll wait for your response.
Don’t worry about NZ. Rugby will always be the national sport. Its a religion and part of New Zealand culture.
Rugby league national competition the Bartercard Cup was watched by a man and his dog has been chop of the face of this earth. There are 18 professional rugby teams in rugby union in NZ. There is only one professional league team in NZ and most of that team are made up of Australians .
Rugby has over 145,0000 players. rugby league has 15,000. You do the maths when you wake up from your dream.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Siva, you really have no idea do you? Rugby league NRL is huge, your tiny supper 14/15 whatever, is a small little 3 country comp with what, ? 5 teams from each country, rugby league has 16 teams from oz and 1 nz, it will be 2 from nz soon with wellington to be included.
Now those 16 teams which could be 20 if league wanted to go this path have untold opportunities for rugby league players, from the age of 14, (which pay jumiors around 50 to 150 thousand dollars, even before they play NRL, your whole competition rely’s on a few players making the All-black squad to make a quid. You do the math,
rugby league in oz is huge man, it has opened the door for islanders and nearly has a 50% player ratio of youth players of Island decent making big money. Rugby league is going to gobble up anything that union can offer in this country, take a look at the island nations, PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, even the french Polynesion nations are starting to look into league. League is going to be the big money maker for Polly players, they will take this wealth and encourage others as they are doing,
Jarryd Hayne has done more for Fiji than any other union player has done for their nation. He has made the whole nation proud. Their are 10 Jarryd Haynes coming through the Toyota cup, open your eyes man.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
you have no idea ikee but dreams. thanks for answering my question on American rugby/league playing numbers.
anyway go on about an australian competition because thats all it is an australian competition.
Why should we kiwi’s give a hood about the nrl ? new zealand would never get another team because it was the warriors that ruin rugby league in this country. Why should nz get another team when the whole of australia hasn’t got an nrl team ? keep dreaming.
new zealand – 1 professional rugby league team full of australian players. National competition Bartercard cup canned and no where for players to play rep except the major cities. Rugby League only played in two province in the South Island. Only 15,000 players left from 40,000 five years again
145,000 rugby union player.18 professional rugby union teams, All Blacks the most famous rugby team of the two codes on this planet.
Biggest games on tv and biggest TV ratings every year.
NZ – Rugby Union wins hands down
Australia – 16 professional teams, very popular on tv not so popular in other states. kangaroo’s can’t sellout any games.
rugby union has over 80,000 players. four professional teams soon to be five. more popular than league in western australia and has more playing numbers in victoria and south australia.
Australia – Rugby League wins in NSW, QLD,
South Africa – Over 500,000 rugby union players. 20 professional rugby union teams. world champions and very popular on tv.
a couple of pub league teams played by rugby union players in the off-season to get fit.
South Africa – Rugby Union wins hands down.
Pacific Islands – Over 20,000 rugby union players playing professional and semi professional in France, Ireland, Wales, England, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Portugal, Spain, USA, Scotland, Italy, Australia, Russia, Japan and Northern Ireland.
Samoa – Ten professional rugby union teams . 49 Rugby Union province with their own club competition..
Fiji – 15 professional rugby union teams – 105 Provincial union with their own club competition.
Tonga – 4 profeassional teams. 79 provincial rugby union with their own club competition.
Rugby league pub teams is played by union players in the off season .
Pacific Islands – Rugby Union wins hands down.
Working Class Rugger said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Oikee
You’re right. Rugby League is huge. But only within NSW and Queensland. It’s following outside those two states is actually smaller than Rugby’s.
Umm… could you name the 10 new ‘Jaryd Hayne’s’ in the Toyota Cup, Because from what I have seen this season there really isn’t much to get excited about.
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
oikee
if you knew anything about New Zealand Rugby and the Air NZ Cup you might be aware that ratings are up considerably this season and so are crowds.
The issue facing New Zealand rugby league is somewhat similar to that in Australian rugby in that the focus is mainly on one team…however thats where the similaroity ends, NZ is far smaller than Australia and Australian rugby has the Super 14 sides as well. In NZ, the Warriors play, but thats about it. Nothing for league fans in Wellington or Christchurch to really get excited about.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
I just answered this question, but to put ANZ cup anywhere near the powerhouse of the NRL is just daft, Sparc are controlling rugby league in NZ now, rugby union is NZ sport, i will never say anything less, but for NZ not to be part of the NRL would be political suicide. Wellington wants a team, they even tried to get a team in super league.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
The anz is the powerhouse rugby competition in New zealand . The NRL is the power house league competition in Australia.
The Bartercard Cup was the number one rugby league competition in NZ but it got canned.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
There is a difference between a local comp game like the ANZ cup and a powerhouse club that the NRL can produce, Storm will be the next powerhouse in Rugby League, the Warriors also could be, if they pulled their finger out.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Warriors winning the NRL would be huge news in South Auckland.
Onceinawhile said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
U Mean the strongest RL comp in the world surely? and that’s pretty much because it is the only RL comp in the world.
I’m a league fan, but you sound even more delusional than me!
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Oikee, Oikee, Oikee you are a dreamer. For the first NRL finals game screened into the States via Spike TV only drew 250,000 people. That’s pitiful for a population of over 300 million. Having actually seen footage of both the USNRL and the Rugby Superleague the difference of quality is huge and heavily in favour of Rugby in the States. All I have to say to you this. USRugby will have over 100,000 player’s by Jan 2010 and 130,000 + kids regularly participating in its development program “Rookie Rugby’ as of the beginning of the school year as part of their PE cirriculum.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:34pm | Report comment
250,000 is pretty good. It’s far mnore than watch the Guinness Premiership in the UK on Sky (as a comparison)
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
For the US it absolutely nothing. Something like 0.15% of the population. Not even worth recording.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
It was the first game shown on Spike wasn’t it? These things build over time. However somebody decided to record it because the figures were given after the game. Perhaps the IRB should follow suit instead of announcing the TV ratings for the union world cup 2 years before it takes place.
Regardless, that 250,000 is 250,000 more than have previously watched the NRL on Spike. And that can only be great news.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:48pm | Report comment
the english rugby international team gets 7 or 8 million for six nations matches and 10 to 12 million for rugby world cup games. how many does the great britain and one irishman get in rugby league international ?
Steffy said | September 28th 2009 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
Only some of those games and only a tiny percentage show any interest in union outside those handful of games. Still, pretty good figures.
Knives Out said | September 28th 2009 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
I hope some of those people turn up for the four nations this autumn, Steffy. or that figure might prove embarrassingly irrelevant.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Just to finish off, i will leave you with some comments, Yanks,;- Man this league is badass,!…. These guys are killing each other!….. they should be showing the whole season, not just the play-off’s!….. I am watching a rugby league game, and i cant take my eyes off it.!…. Thank you spike for bringing the greatest game to america. !…. One of my personal favarites :_
If you want some hardcore comments, (thats another one, These guys are hardcore!) go to league freak, and heres some more comments , “one’s which i like”, League merge with Union, over my dead body, league will just swallow union and spit out its dead carcuss.!!!! Another one which tickled my fancy, league is a super tanker, just lumbering along crushing everything in its path.
Now before you rip into me, these are other peoples comments, not mine.
cheers.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:57am | Report comment
oikee, you are starting to sound like MC and the gang??
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Actually, MC makes a lot more sense than Oikee.
AndyRoo said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:38am | Report comment
MC probably makes more sense to you in the same way I think KB makes a lot of sense because he is spruiking my preferred beverage
MC does a pretty good impression of rational until you mention something like the “G” or a handball and then he gets all giddy … the same effect a bit of biff seems to have on rugby league fans.
Robbos said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
We all have our own poision.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Some are made using fresh, clean, local water, and locally grown hops – others use unknown materials from foreign lands.
AndyRoo said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
I smiled…..and letting it go through too keeper
Mick from Giralang said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Mmmmm…KB…
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:35am | Report comment
get some help oikee. rugby will never merge with league because once the olympics excepted rugby back its the death of rugby league in most countries except qld, nsw and northern england.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Siva
Funny you say that. There are rumblings out of Russia that if/when the IOC gives Rugby the tick for the 2016 games there could be a mass exodus from Russian Rugby League to Rugby Union. Evidently both Locokmotive and Dynamo are both going to the Rugby 7’s comp next season.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
just to finish off. i heard the propose nrlus rugby league professional competition is not going to happen. tell us why all the rugby league fans on all forums are upset at this. why would league start a professional rugby league competition when there are only 12 pub teams with no juniors, high schools, colleges ?
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Like i said once before Siva, i will never watch Olmypic rugby unless they allow league players to play the game, because if they dont then its a farce, we wont see the best rugby players in the world, just another watered down version of Union world-wide. You had better hope that this happens, even at the moment i dont watch the Olmypics, to much drug taking involved.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
good for you. i don’t think the world cares if league players played in the olmpics or not. i don’t think not having you watch the olympics is going to matter. in the end the yanks would give $50 million dollars to USA rugby union for been part of the olympics and most countries in europe, north america, africa, south america, asia would make rugby a participants sport and part of the primary and high schools curriculum.
MarkH said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Okiee, Nobody knows league in the US. .yep not even on the west coast. Maybe a few expats try and see it but they get sucked into the whole American Sports thing… Its a pipe dream. Hate to rain on your parade. I lived San Diego for a while..about 6yrs. Back 6mths. Just around San Diego alone there about 30 odd Clubs.
I dunno,,, leagues had a long time to be the sport of sports…out side the east coast of Aust it just isnt around.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Get over yourself Mark, league had a grand final held in New York 2 weeks ago. Like i said, league is going places where Union will not, public schools in america as it has done all round the world, while you are waiting and watching your private sector trying to get off the ground, league is going public, and at a fast rate, faster than you might even imagine. League is for the people, union is for the pillicks wanting to excite the people, as we have seen here in oz, it aint working man.
Your line of thinking is that union is the only rugby sport growing, yes it is, but league is growing also, and we have the best comp in the world in oz. Not Europe, or saffa. OZ man.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
oikee, i enjoy a good game of league as much as the next bloke and would probably attend 3 or 4 NRL games every year, but mate, get off the grass.yes, league is doing well in the USA considering it had a basis of zero existance, but to make comments that league is going places rugby isn’t, is stupid. we all realise that rugby is small fry in the USA however it has a million % greater exposure amongst young americans compared to league and whether you like it or not thats the way it is. rugby knows its place in the USA as way down the list of popular sports and probably couldn’t be called a popular sport yet, but US rugby is trying to get the game moving and there are some positive indications so time will tell. take a BEX Oikee and go and have a lie down.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Thank you Capt, yes league has had no exposure, next year it will have exposure, and it has now with only 4 finals games shown. Given that rugby league has had no exposure, i will wait and see which game takes off 1st, we are as you put it, way behind in america compared to Union, Union along with AFL in America has had a dream run and done nothing really, time to give rugby league a shot at the big time, the Rabbits are a growing force in america.
The Storm are getting their small band of followers also.
The Link said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
no-one knows Rugby or League in the US. you guys are fighting over scraps.
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Oikee, league on tv in the States isnt this new thing that happened this year and will suddenly take off. I watched the State of Origin in 2005 live on the Fox Soccer Channel in the US in a hostel in LA. So yes it has had exposure, just like last year when Russell Crowe was on Letterman, Leno, etc spruiking the game in Jacksonville. Where is the massive groundswell of support for them?
You just have to look at the numbers to know that union has a reasonable presence in the states and they are quite proud of being the defending Olympic champions (1924 i know, but watch the resources the USOC puts into defending that gold medal in Chicago 2016). Lastly, there is a Clint Eastwood directed film about the 1995 RWC starring Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon (Invictus, check it out). Do you not think that this is more exposure than showing the NRL finals on a minor US tv station?
Also Stade Francais get crowds of 80,000 on a regular basis. Do you still want to claim that the Broncos are the largest RUGBY club in the world?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
oikee, there you go lying again. do you not remember the state of origin game in the 80’s, the kangaroo’s, english superleague clubs tour to usa ? the nrl games shown on usa pay tv before ?
so don’t say there’s never been exposure before. we have had american football shove down our throats in australia and nz for over twenty years on pay and fta tv. i don’t see their sport going professional or growing here.
Onceinawhile said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Are you David Gallop?
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Oikee
rugby union is beginning to make some inroads and getting young African-American men playing the game, the USARFU is targetting 100,000 players by the next world cup. Im sure if these guys are any good at rugby, they will also be good at American Football, and I can begrudge them choosing a sport that will give them an education, if not a professional career.
To give you some perspective there are more Australian Football clubs in the US than rugby league.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
what was the crowd in new york for the rugby league final ? i heard between 300 to 700 .what schools in america has played rugby league. i didn’t know most high schools in america playing rugby union were private schools. i heard a lot of rugby union works are done with under previledge kids and gang related kids. that can only be good.
now i ask you again. how many rugby union players, high schools, colleges and females play rugby union in the USA? how many play league ?
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
“Like i said, league is going places where Union will not” .. like public toilets, courthouses and jail…
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Oikee
Think before you shoot off your mouth about Rugby development in the US. “Rookie Rugby” is targetted at all schools. And the vast majority of the kids participating are in the Public School sector. Look up Hyde High in Washington DC. Know what you’re talking about.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Oikee has now gone where not even MC has gone.
MarkH said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
hahaha. You are the goose of the year mate. If a game of backyard footy beteween expats in the US, as I said nobody knows or cares there, is going places your as silly as you sound. GF in NYC two weeks ago…where and when? Who was there and who were the teams then?
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Oh well then, we won’t have you watching. Who care’s. Lots of other’s will be. Don’t kid yourself mate. If Rugby gets back into the Olympics Rugby in Aus and definitely Worldwide is not just going to disappear, it will grow.
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Whilst well worded with nice buzz words the concept of this is so ill thought through that I wonder if the author even knows what union and league are.
The “benefits” to league are laughable:
- Lack of international appeal: Well pray tell how does creating a new game not played anywhere else in the world solve this? You’ve actually just exacerbated the problem now as the kiwi’s and English don’t play the hybrid game.
- risk in expansion: so to combat the risk of expansion you introduce a completely new product to your existing market risking alienation of your existing customers. This is perhaps the absolute single dumbest thing a business can do, you have a natural market that is currently enjoying your product and you decide to change that product for no discernable benefit. This is “new coke” without actually any taste tests suggesting change may be beneficial.
If risk of expansion is too severe wouldn’t the obvious suggestion be simply don’t expand? Blowing up your existing market to avoid expansion is sabotage not strategy.
- More Professional Media Presentation: What are these positive changes that can be made via an amalgamated game but could not possibly be implemented on a stand alone basis? Does rugby union have some golden scroll of professional media presentation (that they seem to be unaware of given their own scandals and troubles?)
- A more revitalise entertaining style of play: Why will both games, simply by mashing them together, be more entertaining? Just one of your many motherhood statements with absolutely zero basis in reality.
This article is nonsense
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Exactly – it would kill everything great about union and destroy everything great about league.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
league and rugby to merge. never. more chance of AFL and rugby merging and that’s a snow flakes chance in hell. what I can see happening in the next decade or so is that maybe a rugby league team has the same owner as a Super15/16/21 rugby franchise or maybe a HAL owner also owns an NRL league team. Maybe there might be some cooperation with expenses involved in operating a stadium etc, or maybe even sharing a player, but merging, not in our life times. Or for example, if the AFL push hard into the gold coast (which they will), you might see joint marketing of say the Gold Coast HAL franchise with the Titans. ie, joint season membership. Who knows!!!!
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Clive might decide to purchase the Titans to add to his portfolio of hobbies.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Let’s hope not!
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Clive is a rugby league man deep down, he is also a bussiness man 1st, when rugby league is shown in America to a national audeince week-in week-out he will certainly want to be part of that. As will all big companies, like i mentioned, you would be a fool to pull your support from rugby league, its a game going places and very fast, behind the scenes , big things are happening, the super tanker is picking up steam, get on or get left behind.
Ben C said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
RU would get a bunch of players who main talent seems to be (rightly or wrongly) getting in the news for negative reasons.
RL would get a bunch of players who (apparently) can’t or don’t want to play if it involves too much effort.
I am not sure who would get the worse end of the deal.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
This is a real ‘rationalists’ approach to be sure.
I agree in some respects however this surely can only be applied to Union in Oz and ironically, NZ as far as benefits are concerned.
Union has absolutely no need to entertain the idea of going hybrid in order to survive outside of Oz, especially when considering the status of the code in Saffa and the Northern Hemisphere.
League is domestically strong in Oz however does lack appeal and talent in those few countries that play the game internationally. I believe that League is slowly gaining on Union in NZ as well which will if accurate, prove to be a bit of a coup for the code downunder in years to come.
I cant see this happening without Oz and NZ having to allienate themselves from the international Union community in order the forge a stronger domestic product; they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, despite the fact that the market here is saturated and Union will probably always struggle domestically speaking, in Australia.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:30am | Report comment
Republican ” I believe that League is slowly gaining on Union in NZ as well which will if accurate, prove to be a bit of a coup for the code downunder in years to come.”
League is solid in NZ mate but what you have stated is absolute crap. Question, when was the last time you spent any significant time in NZ to make such a comment? or are you a pro googler???? You seem to know a bit about whats going on in the private schooling in canberra champ regarding rugby but republican, we all know how to google.
Mark Young said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
What a top article Wayne!
You have put your thoughts very well and made a number of good points.
I agree whole heartedly that there is no sense in having Union and league as two different sports. They should merged together as Rugby and be the greatest oval balled sport in the world.
If anything, this article’s most interesting point is the comments where dopey barnacles who can’t see past their noses point out how strong either of the codes are and how they don’t need the other.
MOVE ON LADS!!! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!!!!!!
EMBRACE THE FUTURE!!!!
INTERNATIONAL WITH MEANING FOR OLD LEAGUE FANS!!!!
STATE OF ORIGIN FOR UNION FANS!!!!!
LETS SEE THE POMS OR BOKS BEAT US KNOW!!!!!
We will still get towelled by the kiwis though
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Origin was built by a 100 year spanking Queensland got from NSW , you dont just manufest that passion. The state of Origin will be sold to the yanks next year hopefully. Its already shown to over 30 countries around the world with a reveered following.
You cant just grow passion, you have to earn it.
And the NRL is fast becoming as feice as origin. Watch the claret flow tonite. Real claret, not that fake stuff the union clubs use.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
Please do tell us about the 30 countries has an Origin reveered following . can’t wait for your reply on that one either.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Common Oikee. im waiting on that 30 countries that have a huge State of Origin following. Common don’t go sleeping on me.
LT80 said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Although I have to agree this article is pie-in-the-sky with some fairly sweeping unsubstantiated claims (sorry Wayne), there is something in the sentiment behind it. I’m sure almost everyone who is a fan of both codes has a one time or another thought about what it would be like to see the best players from each side go up against each other, or how a hybrid game might work. And let’s be honest, the open running play that most people love to see when they watch either code is a common element to both games.
But how could a hybrid rugby ever come about? I could imagine two ways:
(1) A superleague-style media-rights driven creation. Although this would be likely to be a catastrophic failure, and simply end up angering and alienating the supporters of both codes, when such enormous sums of money are potentially at stake, you can never say never.
(2) A gradual evolution toward a common set of rules. This might start with a single hybrid game, perhaps a Wallabies V Kangaroos or NSW V Queensland match, which if proved to be a success might grow to become an annual game or series. Over time if this hybrid game was a entertaining spectacle which somehow managed to capture the best elements of each code (and that’s a big IF!) maybe public opinion might swing towards being receptive to a permanent merger. Anyway, that’s just some wild speculation for a quiet Friday.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
A gradual evolution is a possibility (albeit a remote one).
But the perspective that an Australian brings to such a concept (often with a League slant), is very different to the perspective pretty much any rugby fan would bring – and that’s where the problem starts.
If there is to be a gradual evolution – it can only happen from League moving closer to Rugby for the simple fact that it’s much easier to make changes in League than it is in Rugby (where it’s almost impossible, and we see this in soccer as well).
But – there appears to be very little incentive for League to even contemplate such a gradual evolution – it has the numbers at club level, and those numbers aren’t going anywhere in a hurry – so why would it need to change.
To conclude, the ducks simply do not line up for anything of any substance to happen.
LT80 said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Yes Pip I agree the evolution is a remote possibility only, and you’re right the only place it could start from is here in Australia.
But to put things in a slightly different perspective:
- there are only 7 professional rubgy competitions around the globe (2 league and 5 union). The NRL is arguably the biggest of these.
- there are only a few places where rugby of either code is the most popular form of football: NSW/Qld; New Zealand; possibly South of France.
So a combined rugby game in Australia would almost certainly be the biggest rugby competition in the world, which would be hard to ignore.
But as you say, it’s certainly at long odds. Personally I would love to see a game between the Wallabies and Kangaroos under some kind of hybrid rules. The game might be great or it might be terrible, who could know? One thing is certain – we will never know unless it happens.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:49am | Report comment
LT
There are actually more professional RU comps than you state. They are:
Guiness Premeirship.
Magner’s League
Top14
Super 10 (Italian)
Super 14/15
Top League (Japan)
Supa Iberica de Rugby (Spain in 09 . Both Spain and Portugal in 10′)
Russian Rugby Championship.
Pro D2 ( French second division) and
The Championship ( English second division formerly the National One division and this season is fully professional)
Plus the second level of Italian Rugby (Series A) has many Professional clubs if not all.
And there are a number of semi- pro comps too.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:02am | Report comment
The “championship” is not fully professional. I doubt if the comps in spain, portugal, russia and 2nd division italy are fully pro too.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:16am | Report comment
Are you sure about all those wcr? My team the mighty Plymouth Albion are in the new second tier comp and would manage professionalism but some of the others are getting crowds in the hundreds. I had heard that it was due to become a closed comp with only the teams potentially able to make the leap into the premiership being included. Do you have a link? Im genuinely interested.
As for some of the others im less then convinced. Maybe you are using professional in the old fashion sense. You sure their not just getting broken time payments?
Cant see the italians being full time (although italian teams are joining the magners league next season – not sure if thats exisiting teams or franchises), crows are pretty low, even more so for the spanish although they are being televised i think but cant see much cash from that, im sure i would have heard of some lower grade welshies going out there if that was true.
As for russsia sheehs who knows. I think you mentioned that the russia rl might jump ship because of the olympic sevens – to be honest you might be doing us a favour! Dodgy is hardly the word. You could hold a dodgy dictatorship tournament with all the lovely regimes ready to pump millions in.
Anyway not calling you liar or anything wcr, just wonder where your info is comeing from and whether your definitions might be getting stretched.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
Jeff
I’ll try to find the link. It has been about six months since I have read it. But your right some will struggle and have said so. A couple had been trying to develop property they open in order to comfartably make the upgrade. The first year will be diificult for the lower clubs. There was mention of an extended TV deal that would include Championship games but any revenue won’t be seen this season. I think it has to do with the British and Irish Cup.
In terms of Russia. From what I can gather the guy who effectively funded Russian RL has thrown it into a bit of a whole. There has been a split from within. Evidently it has a lot to do with both Lokomotive and Dynamo. Who knows. All I do know is the Russian Rugby Championship has 14 teams and is fully professional. On top of that there are half a dozen development teams two of which are in St Petersburg. Each year the 6 Nations viewership is growing, the RRC is now broadcast on TV and is recieving greater media interest and coverage.
The SIR crowds where not too bad. I actually know a few Spaniard Rugger’s. The formation of the SIR was greeted with caution as the Federation Espana Rugby (FER) did not sanction it and even tried to counter it with the failed Iberian Cup. But the TV ratings were solid and picked up near the end of the Championship. It was its establishemt year. Next season with the likely inclusion of at least two Portugese teams will give an indication if it has been successful.
Where do I get my information from. Quite often reports. And often the source. I posted a article here about the formation of a elite College Rugby Championship in the States next year. Got the info from USARugby itself. Four weeks later it was stated in an official document realised by that organisation. I have found that most International Unions are more than happy to respond to questions.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
don’t forget the anz cup and the currie cup
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Siva
Yeah sorry about that. I did mean to include at least the Currie Cup. The ANZC I’m not to sure about. From my understanding teams tend to run the spectrum from full timer’s to part -timer’s. I can’t call it a Professional comp or a semi-pro one. It seems somewhere in between. Thoug you might have a better understanding.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
The Championship as it is now called is part of a RFU restructure to create two level of professional Rugby in England. The idea behind this is to spread professional to more areas of the country along with making the transition from Championship to GP easier for team in terms of competiveness. It will take time.
The Russian Rugby Championship is Professional as is the SIR ( its only new but player’s are payed to play as full timers.)
I said most if not all of Serie A team were professional.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 5:42pm | Report comment
the anz cup has a salary cap of $2 million dollars for each team to spent on playerss but that was five years ago. its might have gone up.
LT80 said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
WCR, what I am talking about is top-line preofessional comps. If you are professional rugby player with experience or potential in both codes, where are your options for employment? They would be:
- Super 14
- NRL
- Top14
- English Superleague
- Guiness Premiership
- Magners League
- Top League
I think it’s fair to say all of these comps are competing for the same elite players. The other comps you listed are pretty clearly second tier. If you want to take the technical defintion of whether the clubs pay their players something, then the list would be a lot longer.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
You may have meant elite competitions. In that case your most likely correct. However, you said there were only seven. I was just detailing the other Competitions that are out there.
True Tah said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
LT
rugby league would be the most popular form of football in Papua New Guinea.
Rugby union is the most popular form of football in Tonga, Wales, Fiji, Madagascar, Tonga, Samoa. Plus Im also pretty sure it may well be the most popular football code in some parts of South Africa (esp. Western Cape, Northern Cape, Eastern Cape), England (e.g Cornwall, Cumbria-RL)
Steffy said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
So, to sum up, it’s a cripple fight
macavity said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
The problem with that line of thinking is that RU has the better worldwide reach, but RL has the better game, for spectators at least. From a quality POV it needs to be RU adopting RL’s rules…..
At the moment 99.9% of americans dont even realise there are two types of rugby. they see a fantastic game of RL and then a typical game of RU and get confused.
RL has a great opportunity in the states – what it really needs is knowledgable US commentators to explain the game in terms the seppos understand (i.e. down, quarterback, touchdown, etc).
As the great Jack Gibson said about RL and NFL – “same game, different rules”
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
it looks like you already made your choice of which game is better. but i can also suggest to you that there are hundreds of millions and millions of people of out there who have seen rugby league, rugby union, soccer, afl and american football and think that rugby league was boring out of the lot.
how do you explain not having 21 million australian and 4 million kiwis supporting rugby league when you said its a better game ? If only 15% of australian and 00.1% of kiwis support rugby league and are expose to it every year. what makes you think over 100 yanks are going to supported. i think your better game mentality has gone out the window if its only a minority sport and compare to union its small in most countries that is played in.
True Tah said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
macavity
therein lies the problem with getting RL in the US, why would Yanks watch the same sort of game with differant rules.
By emphasising the similarities with NFL, I think RL is barking up the wrong tree.
RU has started making an effort to really get in high schools, previously it has been a game played by predominantly white college boys and immigrants from the Pacific and South Africa. Within 10 years, I predict the majority of the Eagles will be either African-American Hispanic or Polynesian.
Working Class Rugger said | September 27th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
It’s already beginning now. Several of the current Eagles are either African-American or of Polynesian decent. In Calfornia especially at the junior ranks their are a huge influx of Black and Polynesian player’s.
Rugby in the US are focusing alot of their development efforts toward both junior Rugby and High Schools. And regardless to what one particular poster claims they aren’t discriminating in terms of school system. They have a very solid starter program in “Rookie Rugby”. Which this year will have 130,000 participants. There are alos many school districts looking at how this program is intiated with interest. So the number of children from Elementary to High School playing “Rookie Rugby” could jump rather significantly in the next couple of years.
There is also an organisation called “Play Rugby USA” who’s sole purpose is to go into underprivileged areas and work with community organsiations to establish after schools programs based around Rugby. It has been working wonders in New York and thanks to its new partnership with USARugby it will be expanding Nationwide as of next year.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:04am | Report comment
There is no chance of rugby league devolving to become more like union. There is every chance that union will evolve to become more like rugby league.
Knives Out said | September 26th 2009 @ 3:08am | Report comment
Oh really? That’s interesting. Would you care to expand or define your suggestion, Steffy?
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
when you left rugby union 98% of your sport is rugby union. the only different is play the ball which was a league thing.
millions and millions of rugby union fans and players love rugby union because of the speed of the game and the contest for the ball.
those are the two things that puts rugby union over rugby league.
JayRizz said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
Speed of the game? What speed?
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
LT80, i love your sentiment, but having moved on from ever having a hybrid game, Rugby league has already had a trail game in America between the NFL rules and league rules, in which the rugby league players duelly won.
I will take you back to my previous comment, if league never exsisted, union would be league today, they would have changed the rules and dropped 2 players so the game was better, i heard the other day a comment about making the feild wider for union?
Union wont ever get any better, they cant change into a game they call rugby league.
League is the future, you just cant see this.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
ha ha.. Have you heard that song All I have to do is dream by the Everly Brothers? League isn’t the future. You just can’t except that rugby union is more popular even in America where you live.
Siva Samoa said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
a friendly game between a rugby league side all are ex american football players and a american football team with noone with any rugby league background.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Captain Nemo.
Well thanks for the back hander – maaate? Yes my knowledge of the ACT Union scene is in fact first hand.
As far as League in NZ goes, my opinion in this respect has been gleaned from the Kiwis I know and have spoken to in Oz as well as gauging the media attention it derives in NZ these days not to mention the number of Kiwis taking up the game in this country and across the ditch.
Perhaps you are a Kiwi or at least an avid Union supporter, so I appreciate your angst that this may well be a potential reality however, I still maintain that League as with other codes are gaining on Union in NZ which has been well documented within that country.
captain nemo said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
republican- sorry to dissapoint you mate but i was born in the Gong. So you maintain that league plus other codes are gaining on rugby in NZ because you have spoken to some kiwis in OZ plus reading stuff on the net!!! Brilliant
remind never to hire you as a lawyer. No angst or backhanders here champ. I find it funny how many people on here are so adamant about sport in countries they have never even visited. Bizarre. So republican, next time Air NZ or Jetstar or PAC Blue have a special on to NZ, buy a ticket and go and have a look around . You never know mate, you might actually learn something.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
What an awesome rugby world cup to see all the top rugby players from the top nations. The Wallabies up against the French and the All Blacks. The Boks up against the Samoan and Ireland u against Fiji with players playing in the Top 14.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
The NRL playoffs continue this Friday night on SPIKE TV and this week’s game is a real crackerjack.
It’s a semifinal between the Parramatta Eels and Canterbury Bulldogs.
The winner advances to the Grand Final, while for the loser it’s the end of the road in 2009.
Talk about a rivalry, this one is an age-old storied competition between two Sydney-based teams that between them have a ton of Finals experience.
The winner of the other semi between the Brisbane Broncos and Melbourne Storm in Melbourne will also punch their ticket to the NRL’s showcase event.
The televising of the playoff series from Australia has proven to be a real shot in the arm for the profile of rugby league in America and kudos to SPIKE for taking the initiative.
They’ve tailored the Australian coverage to suit the American market and have been very clever about it.
For example – there are pullthroughs at the bottom of the screen that explain rugby league’s rules and tactics as things happen such as the six tackle and 40/20 rules.
Another smart trick is having the lead Australian commentator Ray ‘Rabbit’ Warren record drop-ins referring to the ‘Australian National Rugby League Championship’.
Why is that smart? Because in Australia we don’t call it a championship per se, it has always been ‘The Grand Final’.
Originally it was known as the Sydney Grand Final, nowadays it’s the NRL Grand Final, but Americans get the term ‘national championship’.
Warren also has recorded a separate drop-in that specifically welcomes SPIKE’s viewers to the coverage and another that provides a link to the American National Rugby League and both drop-ins are sprinkled throughout the telecast.
It’s all about helping American viewers understand the game and making them feel welcome in the process.
SPIKE, via Australia’s Nine Network, is providing a very slick television product.
And on top of everything else, there have been few stoppages in the games to date with non-stop, end to end action.
If you haven’t yet checked it out, you can watch the NRL Finals Series Friday, September 25 at 11p Eastern/8p Pacific. You can find out more at Spike t/v.
Onceinawhile said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
I can also watch, cheerleading, Lacrosse, chess, hot dog eating and scissors paper rock on pay tv
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
This article was taken from the American Rugby union news site. What happened to all those union lovers, Union this, Union, that, Union is world-wide, Stade Francis is the biggest club ,blah blah blah, Stade Francis play 1 game out of a large stadium and give away free tickets to one and all. Mate the broncos will never get 80 thousand, we have the best league stadium ever built, the company that built that stadium also built the New Wembley, they are also building the new Asian Games stadium, why, because as everyone knows, except you maybe, the best rectangle feild is best played in front of around 50 thousand, so all can enjoy and see the game.
Thats annoy’s people, knowing that the broncos are the most powerful rugby team in the world, well its true. We have the best ground for the game.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
it has actually annoyed you in a way. after all your the one coming on here saying this club and this team are better than the other.
Skull said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Rugby Union should just apply all this huuuuge corporate support they get and just buy up all the best RL players & clubs and just take over. Problem solved. And before anyone says yeah but RL always replcae them, perhaps this huuuge corporate support can take over all of RL juniors as well.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Auckland remains the stronghold of league in this country, accounting for about 9000 of the 15,000 registered players nationally. This number has remained steady since the turn of the century but the Auckland association still face a number of problems .
There are only 6000 rugby league players outside of Auckland. Wow its that gaining?
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Yes and their is around 100 thousand Kiwi league players in OZ, why do you think they won the world cup.?
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
all you have is false numbers and more lies. there are only 389,467 kiwis living in australia you liar. show us your source or are you talking out of your paranoia head again. 90% of those kiwis living in australia played and support rugby union. stop lying.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Mate Kiwis have been living in oz for over 2 genarations, their off-spring is over 1 million. Go do some reseach.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 6:17pm | Report comment
you really are funny. first it was the kiwi’s that came now its the great great grand childrens.
who’s next ? the convicts that came over in 1897 ? Russel Crowe anybody ? ha ha.
sheek said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Both union & league were spawned by rugby. Furthermore, league has as much right to rugby’s history as does union, since both codes exhibit elements of early rugby in their current make-up.
The big early difference was between rugby & football, when one side preferred Handling (rugby) & the other side preferred only foot dribbling/kicking (football).
interesting to note that apart from union & league, Australian, American & Canadian football all borrowed elements of rugby for their own games.
For Aussie rules fans, if you find this hard to believe, the kick-to-kick (or ‘forcings back’ as we played in our youth) was the basis for Australian football borrowed from rugby as it was often played in the 1850s.
At one time the ‘down’ call was used in rugby. This was adopted by American & Canadian football, & renamed ‘play-the-ball’ by league.
Only wishful thinkers will consider a merge. The rugby codes are philosophically different, appealing to different fan bases. It’s like some people preferring blue, while others prefer red. We don’t have only one colour, so why have only one rugby code???
Rugby union’s problem is to get off its backside & develop the game here in Australia, instead of sponging off NZRU, SARU & Australian rugby league.
Redb said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Its fine to credit some form of rugby roots in Australian Rules but the game has also some roots in association football in that the game play tacticially is man on man all over the ground – contested ball rather than controlled possession – American football and the rugby codes have remained in groups opposing each other.
Redb
Sean Fagan said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Except that those same roots you speak of ["man on man all over the ground"] did not emerge in Victorian rules or soccer until the 1870s. The dominant scene was still a great mass of players centred around and over the ball.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Sheek
In the Roar, I have always acknowledged that rugby played an important role in the early development of Australian Football – but I’ve always added that it’s a bit unclear how much weight we put on rugby’s influence in comparison to three or four other types of school boy football played at the time.
But rugby and football share some terminology that are not found in the other codes, and that points a common heritage (but of course, all the modern football codes have a relatively common heritage, some terms are to be found in all the codes, such as “wing”).
For those interested, here is the wikipedia article on the origins of Australian Football, and it quite rightly covers some of the conflicting theories.
But this bit sums it up nicely for me:
English School Football
It is often speculated that the primary origins of Australian Football is English public school football games and university football codes.
Geoffrey Blainey, Leonie Sandercock, Ian Turner and Sean Fagan have all written in support for the theory that the primary influence was rugby football and other games emanating from English public schools [23].
Gillian Hibbins in her official account for the AFL also supports this theory.
Their arguments follow the premise that:
a) all members of the Melbourne Football Club committee had experience of English games
b) Tom Wills, himself an exceptional rugby football player, originally wanted to introduce Rugby School rules
c) English school rules were debated extensively by the committee. The club is documented to have looked at the Rugby School Rules but also those of Eton (Eton field game), Winchester (Winchester College football) and Harrow (Harrow football)
d) there are pronounced similarities to the Sheffield rules (which were being formed at a similar time). The most noticeable similarity was the absence of an offside rule and the prevalence of the fair catch (or mark). One theory claims that may have been due to the influence of Henry Creswick (possibly a relative of Nathaniel Creswick) who was born in Sheffield but emigrated to Australia with his brother in 1840 (the town of Creswick is named after them). He moved to Melbourne in 1854 and became involved in the local cricket scene. He played first class cricket for Victoria during the 57/58 season alongside 3 of the founders of Melbourne Football Club including Tom Wills.[24] The reports of the popularity of the Australian game on the goldfields in the 1850s came from the Creswick area[citation needed]. However such a link has not been proven and likely to be circumstantial.
However against this theory is that:
a) the fact that other than Tom Wills, the members felt Rugby School’s rough play and offside rules would not suit players older than schoolboys or the drier Australian conditions.[25]
b) Wills made the now famous declaration “No, we shall have a game of our own”.[26]
c) No games of rugby football had previously been recorded in Victoria
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Yes, they threw out the rule book and decided to have no rules.
Sean Fagan said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
In regard to b), Tom Wills never declared: “We shall have a game of our own”.
The quote attributed to Wills has its origins in “The Story of an Athlete”, a book written in 1923 by fellow founder of Australian rules, Henry Colden Harrison.
Reflecting back more than 60 years after the founding of the code, Harrison provides a broad overview via a single paragraph, attempting to encapsulate the first years.
Harrison writes that Wills “very sensibly advised us not to take up rugby….but to work out a game of our own.” These are Harrison’s words summarising events of the past, not a direct quote of words said by Wills in 1858 or 1859 at the birth of the code.
In providing his summary, Harrison speaks of the ultimate position and conclusion that Wills reached, but it does not in itself contradict the reflections of the other men at those events of 1858-59 discussed in the article http://www.RL1908.com/articles/tom-wills.htm i.e. that Wills began with the proposition that rugby’s laws should be adopted, then realising the views of others were against him, then agreed that some modification and compromise was needed, and that he continued in the ensuing years to push for some aspects of rugby football.
Wills may very well have quickly reached an acceptance that rugby’s laws would not be adopted and then enthusiastically contributed to new rules, but it is clear he didn’t begin with a proposition that “We shall have a game of our own”.
In regard to a) off-side in rugby in the 1850s was not the strict understanding that we have of “off-side/on-side” today.
In regard to c) there are certainly earlier references to rugby in Victoria, including in Greg de Moore’s book on Tom Wills and others summarised here: http://www.colonialrugby.com.au/victoria.htm
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Sean
do you have some sort of sixth sense???
Any time the history of footy arises – you are on the spot within the hour!!
Yes – it’s very clear that the famous Wills quote has been ascribed to him with a touch of dramatic flourish about it.
Sean Fagan said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Truth, justice, and the rugby way!
sheek said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
Gidday Sean,
Glad to hear from you. These Aussie rules types get super-sensitive if you make even a remotely connected reference between rugby & Australian football!!!
Redb said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
nice to have a fantasy writer on board. Did George Lucas use you on his last movie?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
not the rugby you support but rugby union .
Redb said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Pip,
These rugby blokes have trouble understanding the flux of football codes that some of Aussie Rules draws from.
I suggest they take a trip to the MCG – Olympic Stand – go up the escalators and read the 10 original rules of Australian football set down in 1859. Its beeeewdiful.
Redb
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
You mean the Tinpot, brocken rusted down old cricket ground, i surgest you stop at Suncorp, Built by leading world class artitects that also designed the NEW Wembley ground with a feild that slides in and out of the stadium, Now this ground we call Suncorp, was Built right on top of the Brisbane graveyard, still has graves under the ground, when you walk into the ground, its like sleepy hollow, a stadium which has been declared the best League ground in the world, holding 50 thousand so everyone gets a veiw, not like old tinpot, where if they kick a ball on the other side of the feild you can enjoy a good book.
When i say league ground, not a grand final ground that has 80 thousand, no a everyday of the week ground that caters for the largest rugby club in the world, The Broncos.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Oikee
all I can say is that the weight of history is on our side.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
your right redb. but you might realise that the only rugby blokes that are questioning the history of afl and soccer are also questioning the history of rugby union.
soccer knows its history, afl knows their and rugby union know where they started. its only the rugby league fans who wants to change their history and take rugby union and afl with it.
in reality their code started in a meeting at a pub in northern england or they can decide adknowledge the day they change from rugby union rules to the current league rules.
rugby union fans never question where the other codes came from because we already know where we came from.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
The first rules of Australian Football, drawn up in 1859, only had 10 rules, so yes, it was meager, and there was massive room for ad libbing.
But interestingly, the path that ultimately led to the modern game we know was laid out in that foundation document, a good four or five of the rules being pivotal to what we end up with.
Other games that had been codified at this time, namely Sheffield rules and Cambridge rules, didn’t really have a set of rules that was too much longer.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
I should add that all footballing history fascinates me – it’s all interesting and it’s all inter-connected – history basically belongs to everyone.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Most of NZ’s population is in Auckland is it not, so it stands to reason that this is where any real growth will initially take place.
Perhaps the fact that it remains steady while Union is in decline is a positive for the code there. The NZ media i.e. the NZ Herald certainly seem to be very supportive of the game but that could be because the paper is run by Ozzies?
Despite the fact that League seems dormant in the deep and sparsley populated south, I would not be too dissmissive of Unions shrinking status in NZ.
Oh and I am not of League persuasion so there is no intended bias on my part.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
No worries, they even have their own league channel over their now, the smart people realise that league is going places, last year Fiji declared that league is now the number 1 code, after rugby union Fiji lost 2 million dollars,. Union is for greedy pensioers and brainwashed Kiwis. The All-blacks are as stale as a rusty old cake, 2 many games being played has turned off the Aussie public, and all we see is kicking now, well all we ever saw was kicking.
Imagine trying to explain these rules, (rucks, Mauls, Lineouts, repeated scrums.etc) to the yanks. They cant even explain them now, go to the Union site on here, everyday its the break-downs no good, they not allowing our hands in the ruck, Blah,blah , blah, took the yanks 100 years to understand their game, how the hell will they ever understand rugby union, aussies gave up 100 years ago. They might like the fact that union has long stoppages, so they can argue the toss, i watched a NFL game the other day, went to the toilet, made a coffee, took the kids to school, and come home just in time for them to tell me they had originally made a error on the 1st ruling, Union anyone.?
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
oikee
there is absolutely no way rugby league would be no.1 in Fiji.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
Well it is, true tah, dont forget that they sold more t/v antenee than they ever did watching union, and Jarryd Hayne is the New Mal Meninga to the Fijians. Mate league blew them off the planet, and Lebanon and the arab republics will get to see the worlds greatest ever point scorer soon, the one, the only, Hazem, the El-Magic. cheers.
JK said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
Ummm no, do you do any fact finding? League is not the number 1 sport in Fiji, in fact Volleyball, Netball
and football are all bigger.
Are you serious?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:14pm | Report comment
talk out of his paranoid head again. rugby league is a minor sport in fiji played by only a handful of pub teams yes teams not clubs.
there are 22,605 rugby union players in fiji. there are only about 100 rugby league players and all rugby union players anyway. rugby league fans were looking to buy antenna because the rugby league world cup wasn’t shown on free to air tv. free to air tv show rugby union internationals, super 14s, top 14, international 7’s all local competitions from rugby nunion.
oikee is a big liar and very paranoid. rugby union is the national sport and soccer, netball, volleyball, hockey, basketball are the major sports. league is daylight behind softball and afl.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
talk out of his paranoid head again. rugby league is a minor sport in fiji played by only a handful of pub teams yes teams not clubs.
there are 22,605 rugby union players in fiji. there are only about 100 rugby league players and all rugby union players anyway. rugby league fans were looking to buy antenna because the rugby league world cup wasn’t shown on free to air tv. free to air tv show rugby union internationals, super 14s, top 14, international 7’s all local competitions from rugby nunion.
oikee is a big liar and very paranoid. rugby union is the national sport and soccer, netball, volleyball, hockey, basketball are the major sports. league is daylight behind softball and afl. fijian rugby league sponsor vodafone and well known fijian water offered to sponsor all rugby union in fiji for $27 million dollars for three years.
http://www.fijisun.com.fj/main_page/view.asp?id=26671
Vodafone clears rugby $8m bid
9/22/2009
Vodafone Fiji Limited yesterday clarified that they did offer Fiji Rugby Union sponsorship worth more than $8 million in cash and kind per year for three years.
The telecommunications company said this support including backing for provincial and island zone rugby development as well as the national teams.
However, Fiji Rugby Union acting chief executive Keni Dakuidreketi said the union was contractually bound to other sponsors, including Vodafone’s competitor Digicel.
Vodafone Manager Corporate Affairs Shailendra Prasad revealed they approached Rugby House in March about their intention to offer sponsorship of Fiji rugby. However, he said they were advised that the current sponsors do not allow Fiji Rugby Union to engage in any discussion with another party.
“We were advised to hold out offer till the end of August/September period by when the current sponsorship agreement would expire and new bids will be called in,” he said.
He added when they approached FRU
because of their intention to bid, they were given the green light to submit the offer, which they did.
However, when questioned yesterday on whom from FRU asked them to give in their offer, Prasad said they were not in a position to disclose the name. But he confirmed it was a senior person in the FRU.
He said: “A very senior official from FRU gave us the go ahead to put in our bid for the sponsorship. We have documentary evidence and correspondence to that effect on email. However, we are not in a position to disclose that information at this time.”
Prasad said Vodafone understood FRU discussed their offer. But Vodafone only knew from the news media that they stuck with their current sponsor Digicel.
In Vodafone’s offer they had breakdowns to various levels of rugby ensuring that everyone would benefit, he said.
Their offer included $1.2 million each a year for the national sevens and Flying Fijians, $200,000 for Provincial competitions, $50,000 for the Island Zone, and $25,000 each for the U18, U19 and U21.
In addition all the 14 provincial unions would get $25,000 a year each for preparation and $125,000 to be used for coaching clinics and development of rugby in rural and outlying Islands.
They also would give the opportunity for unions to partner with them for texting promotions to raise funds for each union, he said.
Dakuidreketi responded he had no idea who in FRU had talks with Vodafone.
“There was never a discussion and they need to come out clean on whom from FRU spoke with them.”
Dakuidreketi confirmed he received a letter the week after they had re-signed with Digicel.
Dakuidreketi said: “It should be realized that FRU properties are held under various sponsorship contracts with a number of companies. These contracts have specific terms with regard to contract renewals.
“In essence the FRU was already contractually bound not only to Digicel, but other companies as well in various sponsorship agreements from which it was gradually rebuilding its strength.
:”This process of rebuilding is well under way, hence the decision not to accept the new offer which by all accounts appear to be an attempt to hijack Digicel’s marketing rights.”
http://www.fijisun.com.fj/main_page/view.asp?id=26968
i think you should give up oikee.
Midfielder said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Sheek
I was watching a programme a couple of months back … it was made by FIFA about the development of football…
Theree was a fair bit in the show about the spilt between rugby and football …. how each group wrote different rules… and how from a common set of agree rules … each side wrote new rules … they also re enacted how the games of the time where played… (it was on SBS)
One thing I found amazing was that rubgy made a rule that you could no longer punch the ball … it had to be passed … the show also showed (remember this was made by FIFA in 2006) how the various games where played … it clearly shows the punch the ball was a rubgy thing … I am sure many AFL folk would swear that the punch was a Aussie thing…
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
Mid
it sounds interesting – I’m sorry I missed it – please see my bigger post to Sheek above.
sheek said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
For God’s sake, don’t tell the footy fanatics, they’ll have a fit of apoplexy!
Yeah, funny that, one of Australian football’s founding fathers was Tom Wills, who was educated in England & played rugby union.
It would make sense if he found a couple of ‘old’ rugby habits, like kick-to-kick, & punching the ball, to introduce to their new game.
Sean Fagan might also throw light on the subject that at different times in its evolution, off-side was also allowable in rugby union.
So there……….!
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:42pm | Report comment
Wills certainly introduced things from his rugby background, but the other three or four on the Committee came from different schools and knew different forms of football – this is all well documented, there is no confusion or ambiguity about this point.
So, could Wills have introduced the concept of the punch? I’ve got no idea. Here are the original 10 rules:
1. The distance between the Goals and the Goal Posts shall be decided upon by the Captains of the sides playing.
2. The Captains on each side shall toss for choice of Goal; the side losing the toss has the kick off from the centre point between the Goals
3. A Goal must be kicked fairly between the posts, without touching either of them, or a portion of the person of any player on either side.
4. The game shall be played within a space of not more than 200 yards wide, the same to be measured equally on each side of a line drawn through the centres of the two Goals; and two posts to be called the “kick off posts” shall be erected at a distance of 20 yards on each side of the Goal posts at both ends, and in a straight line with them.
5. In case the ball is kicked “behind” Goal, any one of the side behind whose Goal it is kicked may bring it 20 yards in front of any portion of the space between the “kick off” posts, and shall kick it as nearly as possible in line with the opposite Goal.
6. Any player catching the ball “directly” from the foot may call “mark”. He then has a free kick; no player from the opposite side being allowed to come “inside” the spot marked.
7. Tripping and pushing are both allowed (but no hacking) when any player is in rapid motion or in possession of the ball, except in the case provided for in Rule 6.
8. The ball may be taken in hand “only” when caught from the foot, or on the hop. In “no case” shall it be “lifted” from the ground.
9. When a ball goes out of bounds (the same being indicated by a row of posts) it shall be brought back to the point where it crossed the boundary-line, and thrown in at right angles with that line.
10. The ball, while in play, may under no circumstances be thrown.
The most crucial rule is no. 10 – that the ball cannot be thrown. There is no other info provided as to what you can do with the ball. Obviously you could kick it (and goals could only be scored by kicking, as today), but could you punch the ball? Who knows.
Otherwise, I think the description of force ‘em backs of the early games of aussie rules is pretty close to the mark (with regular scrimmages).
I actually agree with Sean that the game would have looked like a bunch of shool kids chasing the ball around the paddock, in big clumps, with the odd big kick out of the congestion (but stacks of congestion in between the kicks).
In fact, we can go as far as to say that in 1860, if you were viewing any game of football, of whatever rules, from a distance, they all would have looked almost identical to each other.
Many of us make the mistake of viewing this period with modern eyes – we have to view it with 1860 eyes – where it’s all relatively knew, nothing too scientific about it, skills are rudimentary at best, and it’s one, big huge scrimmage.
By the way – in the early rules of Association Football, you could actually take a mark, i.e. handle the ball – the goal keeper is the last vestige of this rule in the modern game.
Sean Fagan said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:11pm | Report comment
“Knocking” the ball was a fist punch, not simply having the ball touch your hand.
Law 12 of 1845: “A player being off his side having a fair catch is entitled to a fair knock on, and in no other case.”
In Law 12 we can see that off-side play was not completely outlawed, and nor was deliberately knocking (punching) the ball forward.
For a discussion on rugby’s off-side evolution and also punching the ball have a look at:
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/22633/20081119-0019/www.rl1908.com/blog/australian-football.html
From the same article: In football at Westminster School “the Rugby fashions” of running with the ball “and ‘fist-punting’ when you had the ball in hand” were strongly featured in the 1840s until “this running and ‘fist-punting’ was stopped in 1851 or 1852.”
While Rule 10 of the Melb FC states throwing is unlawful, that doesn’t mean it was lawful in rugby. The first written laws of rugby were not exhaustive – they didn’t express every rule/custom, just the ones that needed clarification. Throwing/passing the ball did not come into rugby until the 1870s, and backlines not for a decade later.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
Sean
good link and article.
But two doubts remain:
1. I’m still unclear whether the fist-punch method was being used from 1859-60, I’ve looked for evidence but can’t find it, the rules don’t discount it, but as we can see, they’re pretty meagre rules that have continued to change to the present day.
2. In the article you’ve linked above, you mention that the original 1859 rules didn’t mention how a goal could be scored, but that’s incorrect, that’s actualy one of the rules, and it’s quite specific, such that it remains the situation to the present day.
Sean Fagan said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:22am | Report comment
Pippinu. In regard to:
1. Punching the ball – agree it is not found in match decriptions – but we know that “throwing” was unlawful, and that punching the ball would obviate rule 10 of 1859, that punching the ball existed at Rugby and Winchester and elsewhere in the preceding decades, and no single origin point can be found for when it started in Aust rules. You could argue I’m joining dots with this one, but that’s the picture it tells.
2. Kicking of a goal – I was referring to the absence of any reference in the 1859 rules to the kicking method i.e. punt, drop, place. The early rules of rugby are the same – the punt goal was initially not illegal by the law book, but it was frowned upon as taking the easy option. It’s an example of the rugby laws being an incomplete documentation of the game – other rules/traditions existed, but were so unqestionable/accepted that they weren’t written down.
Mate _ I think we could be boring everyone here & getting off-topic. Happy for you to email me if you want to discuss.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Here’s one example of looking at football history through modern eyes.
People often jump to conclusions about the shape of the respective balls and fields.
Forget about all that – in 1859/1860 these things were nowhere near standardised.
With aussie rules, and I daresay with early forms of rugby, you played wherever you found a bit of space, and you played with whatever ball was lying around.
I’ve read about games played on fields that had a tree or two in the middle of it.
The game started attracting spectator interest almost immediately, and since here was nothing marked out, the spectators would be regularly found standing well inside the field of play.
As for the shape of the ball, this started to become a bit more standardised soon after the rugby ball was, and it was chosen as the preferred ball for aussie rules.
It was sometime in the 1880s when Sherrin developed the truer oval shape that is used to this day.
Clearly, by that point, aussie rules was sufficiently different from rugby to demand a shape of ball that suited the primary purpose of the game, and that was kicking.
Westy said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Wayne of Windale I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Your first statement is just false. I can think of no other reason thanit is intentional. whether you or I like it or not rugby league’s popularity has increased this year.It took one google to verify that rugby league crowds are up an average of 2.12 % per game over last year ( the only code to achieve this).
In defence of Republican and his Kiwi mates the Warriors had a 35.7% increase in crowds over 2008 , with the largest inrease in licensing and merchandising income to asingle club being the Warriors who now sit in 6th place in terms of merchandising sales in 2009. Remember the Warriors had aterrible year this year. Viewer interest in the NRL competition rose to 47% of NZ viewers in 2009 up from 43 % in 2008.
Ratings on FTA in Sydney up 3. 6% on Friday night and a wopping 16.1% in Brisbane and on Sunday afternoon Sydney is the bolter up 16.2% and in Brisbane 6%.
Rugby league holds 60 of the top 100 program audiences on PayTV with havind over 300000 compared to 10 last year.
Rugby league club memberships are up 27% albeit from a low base( especially relative to AFL) to over 108000 with Souths up 120% and the Bulldogs 60%.
The first SOO was the most watched SOO in history with a 6,3 million across 5 capital cities and a further 3.3 million in regional Australiaand acrowd of 50966 at Etihad in Melbourne.
There junior club registrations of actual players excluding schools( god love them they do not talk about participants or double count school players) ) is up by 4000 to 124319 a new record. Club registrations are up 6.8%to 162095 with a resurgence in parts of the bush.
I attended a game at SFS between parramatta EEls and Wests Tigers with aclub crowd of 34 272 and I have to tell you it was the best game of rugby – league or union I have seen this year. brutal defence but dare i say it sublime skill.
Rugby League has got problems but popularity is not onw of them.
Every second bloke at the rugby union test has an NRL team. Not to understand the domestic positions of rugby league relative to rugby union is the height of ignorance. Your next article will be AFL crowds down by 1% game in trouble. Oh please give me some of that trouble!
I am forced to act like some type of rugby league propagandist because so much inaccurate bullshit is written about the game and the people who support it. Secondly so few rugby league followers bother with our site. I will be little self righteous and up myself. How many of you rugby boys am i going to see at the SFS on Saturday . Go Randwick. Some might not like what i say and my affection for rugby league but at least I go to our rugby games.
One thing about Michael C is that we may disagree about conclusions but he has never started an article out with blatant falsehood.
It is OK in Australian rugby union to acknowlegge the truth otherwise we live in a fool’s world. I am envious of AFL powerhouse and also closer to home rugby league. To ignore the underlying strength of these game is ludicrous.
At the moment why on god’s earth would rugby league want to come anywhere near Australian rugby union. We get O’ Connor wet behind the ears for $600000 a season they get Hayne for $500000.
I know who is getting better value.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
good to see the rugby union guy from paramatta back to rave up his favourite code and pretending to be a rugby union fan on the rugby union threads. how you going russ 13 ?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
good numbers there westy but i think he wasn’t talking about the nrl and aru merging. he was talking rugby and league so put away your nsw and qld rugby league statistics for leagueunlimited.com. bring on the international rugby board and international rugby league statistics of how many countries, players nd money each have.
how many rugby is shown on tv and how much profits each world cup makes. the last rugby league world cup made $5 million australian dollars. the last seven-a-side rugby world cup in dubai in the same year made $36 million us dollars.
i won’t even mention the woman world cups and the rugby world cup which gave the irb $120 million us dollars and the french rugby union $24 million us dollars.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Hold on their Siva, i posted above and it must have annoyed the hell out of you , that spike post was written by Rugby Union news USA, yes your dormant lifeless code you call rugby in America, your hardcore millions of union lovers around the world, now having no chioce but to watch the greatest rugby league comp on Earth, the NRL.
France is nothing but a retirement home for your pathetic union has-beens, Super league anyone? Even super league is cutting back foreigners so they can produce their own talent, league stars from oz will get paid millions within 5 years to move to super league, the growth has started, all you can see is red, thats the colour of your glasses. Cheers, my best mates a Tongon, straight from the heart of Union, even he loves league.
Like i said, turn out the lights in NZ when you move to OZ.
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
Siva so lets get this straight he isn’t talking about Australia yet he refers to national expansion, a domestic competition and the NRL as a the base for juniors.
So in your mind he must be referring to south Sydney being the new breeding round for Scottish rugby union, the entire rugby union playing world forming a single sovereign entity and munster playing Penrith as the season opener next year?
Who’s your supplier and how much does it cost to get so high you believe that?
The Link said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
Westy, thanks again for some sanity inside the storm.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Sheek.
The only thing the Australian Game ‘borrowed’ from Rugby was Wills attendance at that College as a young fella. The rest has simply been a grossly overstated misappropriation of the true historical essence and heritage of our national game, which I have alluded to on previous threads ad nauseaum.
I dont wish to elaborate further in this respect but such a freudian slip should not go unchallenged.
I agree with the rest of your sentiments wholeheartedly.
Cheers.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
Thats because you are more of a religous fanatic then a sports follower. If you can’t see the elements of the original rugby in aFL then you are deliberately blind more worried about the purity of your code then an open minded sports fan.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
and which original rugby are you talking about jeff ?
Dogs Of War said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
I just wish Rugby League would change it’s name. Something like Super League would do. Never refer to the word Rugby again. Most people who are not familiar with the sports, think they are the same thing.
It could also end these discussions. You don’t see people asking for AFL and Gaelic Football to merge. What’s the point?
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Dogs, they call rugby in USa super league,
And why should we change our rugby name, man, we have the NRL, yes the greatest rugby Comp in the world, bar none, 
And the Broncos are the biggest rugby club in the world. Bar none, Brisbane has the greatest rugby league ground, even the All-blacks and wannabies love playing their, with our very own rugby League crowd to support the atmosphere, wait until they see origin at eden park, 10 thousand queenslanders showing them the way. Arrrrggghhh.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
the broncos pay money to play in suncorp stadium. its the stadium for all codes and concerts. the nrl is world famous in canterbury bankstown and lakemba. Toulouse is the biggest club with a cheque book of $20 million euros.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Good, they can use some of that money when Toulouse gets into the Super league,
cheers.
20 million euro, whoppee do, like i said, all union thinks about is money, too greedy to worry about the state of the game, its a dogs breakfast.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
i’ll show you whats wrong with your post……(money when Toulouse gets into the Super league)….
Do ou ever talk about now or yesterday instead of dreaming of something that aint going to happen ?
Toulouse is a rugby union city and so is wales and where the catalans dragon plays.
get some help brutus.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:18pm | Report comment
This seems to have got a bit confused. The applicants to the super league will be toulouse olympique, a rugby league team founded in 1937 and unrelated to Stade Toulousian the rugby union team.
The catalans dragons play in perpignan and despite USAP, the rugby union team there winning the french title, the codes are more or less on a even keel. The Dragons have established themselves very well, clearly using thier status as the only pro league team to garner support from all over french catalonia. The area has had a strong league presence since 1934.
Wales, where i iive, is indeed a strong union area (although soccer is much more popular then people imagine and if cardiff city get into the premiership the balance of power could easily shift) but people here are also ‘rugby’ fans and appreciate the super league. My team, the Celtic Crusaders, have certainly struggled in their first year in the superleague, but after getting through that are in a position to establish themselves. If they do Wales will be a force again.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:20pm | Report comment
Not sure they are the biggest clun anymore if you are going to measure it by money. Toulon and Stade Francais are challenging that at least. Mind you i think their average attendance is probably starting to challenge the brisbane broncos.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
jeff, im not sure what made you think that catalans dragons and perpignan USAP more or less on a even keel. its like comparing the Brisbane Brocos to Norths Devil or Liverpool FC to St Helens rugby league.
I know Wales love their soccer and rugby but for a long time rugby had their own local competition which was strong and the strong Welsh soccer clubs were playing in the English comp along with cricket.
Six Nations and Welsh rugby internationals are the pride of the Welsh that soccer can only match if they get into the world cup.
Dogs Of War said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Rugby League needs it’s own identify. More often that not, outsiders (not familiar with either version of Rugby), assume they are the same game. If Rugby League is serious about expanding etc, they will have to change the name of the game, sooner rather than later.
You only have to look at this site to know that most just assume Rugby = Rugby Union. The Union section is titled Rugby, while the Rugby League section has League as it’s heading.
Rin said | October 8th 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Broncos biggest rugby club in the world ha ha, never heard so much rubbish, at least half of the South African and European teams are far bigger then them, SA and English teams get 40,000 a game no matter who they play, and have millions at their disposal, and the Broncos dont own Suncorp you dumb dumb they jsut happen to play there the most. ha ha
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Sheek.
I also meant to say that the kick to kick influence is quite accurate, I will give you that.
Ta
sheek said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
Republican,
You’re breaking me up….. truly!
Dean Pantio said | September 25th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
I’m going to be blunt here: Article rehashing a tired argument which makes no sense unless you’re hell bent on making yet another AFL – a sport played seriously by (parts of) one country.
The rest of the rugby playing world would just shrug their shoulders, shake their heads and walk away.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
The population of Auckland is 1,294,000 and has 9000 rugby league players and the rest is of new zealand is now more than 3,000,000 and only have 6000 rugby league players. You do the maths.
The province of Southland in the deep south has more than 5000 rugby union players.
Robbo said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Can I just nominate Siva Samoa, Trevor Allan and Oikee as the three biggest idiots to ever grace the Roar’s forums. You guys have successfully turned a good conversation about the merits (or otherwise) of merging the codes into another stupid Code War argument. Well done!
Zac Zavos said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Guys – please simply use the Report Comment function to alert moderators of any threads being pulled off topic. We are focused on ensuring debate focused on the topic of the article.
JimC said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
This is so tedious –
To recap:
Rugby league in Australia has absolutely nothing to gain from union
Rugby union elsewhere has nothing much to gain from league that it hasn’t already stolen.
I like both – what’s wrong with that
As someone said earlier – sporting monoculture is dead boring.
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
this guy has no other articles, or comments, yet kicks off with a rehash article that generates traffic. Does that not raise some questions???
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Mushi
interesting observation.
I also note that his favourite Youtube clip is a punch up between two surbuban aussie rules teams in Melbourne.
Interestingly, with about 20 blokes involved in the dust up, the game appears to continue on the other side of the field, and someone eventually scores a goal.
I note that Windale is in NSW – does anyone know where exactly?
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
I am a rugby league fan, lets hunt this guy down rape his wife and eat his children, Arggh, yummy. Fancy starting a beat-up article like this, hey
i am loving it.
Snake said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
Spoken like a true Leaguie!
macavity said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Windale is a suburb in eastern Lake Macquarie, just south of Newcastle. It is widely acknowledged as the worst suburb in the lower hunter – it is full of commission houses and has very high crime/violencedrug//teen mummy rates. think of it as the macquarie fields of Newcastle and you have the right idea.
“wayne from windale” is a character on a local radio station, played by one of the (unfunny) breakfast hosts. He is your typical bogan who rings in to talk about winnie blues, nicking cars his mrs, “shazza”, etc etc
this joker is having a lend of us all.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
Yes, you’re probably right about the last bit.
Funnily enough, it turned into not too bad a thread – I’ve come across a lot worse!!
Westy said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Trevor Allan as one of the great dual internarionals in rugby union and rugby league you epitomise the point. In Australia it is quite common to be a rugby league supporter on a domestic basis and rugby union as your provincial or internatinal code.
Trevor have you honestly seen some premier club rugby in Sydney. It ain’t very good.the NRL is amuch better competitive spectacle except say for the final series taking place now.
You are right i do gild the lily but with the intent of making sure we know where we stand.I gave honest figures on here based t on the NRL annual report. I go to ARU annual report and i get goobledegook about participation rates that mean nothing.I look at the NZRU annual reports and they are much more like the NRL document.
I accept what you say that rugby league is stuck in Auck;land but the reality is as an NRL team the warriors is a viable organisation withreasonable crowds and merchandise sales.
this is primarily a rugby site you know that and so do i. however it becomes a joke when we discuss the future of rugbyunion in AUSTRALIA in a vacuum. We do not exist in a vacuum here . We are not dominant. To lie to ourselves about our real position has and stilldoes lead us to make substantial management errors.
I believe there are many rugby league supporters in Australia who would act as reservoir of support for rugbyunion. the key is how do we get them . At a community and club level they kill us hands down.
I note you did not dispute one fact i put forward.To ignore or lie about them in Australia would be mindboggling.
I will go to the Wicks v Uni game and i earnestly hope
We have the ludicrous situation of premier club rugby playing under adifferent
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
westy don’t talk about rugby union in new zealand and compare it to the warriors. you want to compare reasonable crowds and merchandise sales then why don’t you compare the sales between the wallabies and kangaroo’s, the all blacks and the kiwi’s the warriors and all the super 15 teams in new zealand. the anz cup and the bartercard cup in nz.
the tv ratings between the anz cup which this year are far bigger than super 14 and even far bigger than the warriors or any nrl games.
compare the western force to the western reds ? the thing is that you and most rugby league fan don’t realise that the aru and rugby union as a whole in australia is 100 times better off finance, crowds, tv ratings and popularity wise than it did twenty years ago.
They didn’t even have money and couldn’t pay their power bills. now thats improvement.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Pure bullshit, The Kangaroo sales left the Wallabies for dead last year, next year when the real 4 nations hits town this will not only be acheived again, but will make the Wallaby brand look like a pair of socks at Xmas. You really have no idea Siva, do you, ? The Kangaroos are the most recognised brand in the world of Rugby, they are just that Damm good.
True Tah said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
oikee
when people think of NZ, the All Black jersey is one of the things which comes to mind. The All Blacks have long been the primary sporting ambassadors of NZ.
In Australia, traditionally it was the cricket side that held a similar sort of mantle, not the rugby league side.
You talk about Kangaroos, but if you mention Kangaroos to anyone south of the Murrumbigee they think you are talking about a team which Wayne Carey used to play for.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
the wallabies sales are into tens of millions since they started selling Merchandise and only last year the kangaroo’s celebrated their 6000 jerseys sales since the 1995 rlwc.
yes the north melbourne kangaroos are more famous than the rugby league version. the most popular rugby teams are all the international rugby union teams and clubs. even the japanese rugby union team is more popular than the kangaroo’s.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Yeah right, come back in 2 years and talk turkey, Japanese rugby, dont make me laugh,
you are kidding me right, the Kangaroo the most recognised brand in the world, Hahahahaha, yeah right, well the 4 nations will put paid to that, plenty of folk will watch and know who the kangaroos are, ask the all-blacks mate.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:47pm | Report comment
Oikee
At that comment just proves how delusional you really are. You must be shit stirring surely. Go to France with the Wallaby and Kangaroo jersey see which one they recognise. It won’t be the Kangaroo’s. Same could be said for all the major Rugby and RL playing nations.
Anyone with any thread of honesty would concede the ‘real’ 4 Nations is just another competition for to the Kangaroo’s dominate year in, year out. Yes, the Wallabies are struggling but least not forget that international Rugby is far more competitive than international RL. We can’t always dominate.
In terms of the Top14. The French are cutting back there foriegn player quota. And don’t kid yourself the French RL would kill to have the level of talent running around in their comp that regularly play in the Top14 and for France.
Back to the States. Dormant. Yep 15% annual growth sounds like a stagnant sport to me. It’s largest growth area being high schools. You know grassroots something RL in the USA hasn’t got.
Mate, you must live in a very insular world where everything comes up RL. But open up your eyes. Rugby may not be having a great time here but internationally League doesn’t compare. There will not be a mass conversion any time soon.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
Nobody is denying that union has a bigger footprint than its more evolved cousin. As you head higher up the food chain the numbers get lower.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
Steffy/Gort
Hey, I can’t believe I’m actually responding to your tripe once again after I vowed not to ever again. But hey I’ll make an exception.
‘As you head higher up the food chain the numbers get lower.’ Have you ever heard of Soccer mate. Being English surely you have. The number one sport on this planet with far and away the most participants. In sport as you rise up the food chain more oftern than not especially in team sports the number’s often follow and expand.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:11pm | Report comment
WCR, I don’t consider soccer to be all that evolved although I can understand how you would believe it to be so from your union perspective.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
what day is the olympics announcement wcr ?
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
A sad day for 15s union
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Siva
The announcement is October 9th. So a little over two weeks from now. It has been recommended for inclusion which is different from last time round when it was only put forth for consideration. Having listened to an interview with a journalist from within the IOC I am feeling rather good about this. He stated the regardless of everything else the IOC is a commercial organisation and takes the opinion of broadcaster’s seriously in its considerations. And the feedback on Sevens has been very good. He actually stated that Rugby was considered a shoe in last Christmas. And that it recommendation was assured.
It only needs 54 votes to be approved. After the Sevens WC the delegates that attended have been actively campaiging for it.
Now to Steffy’s comment below. It won’t be a ’sad’ day for Rugby. Quite the opposite actually. I thought you would have got enough of this on PlanetRugby, Gort.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
wcr, if union gets into the Olympics it will be union 7s. Union 7s might do alright out of it but it will be at the expense of 15s in most places.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
good try steffy/gort. i bet you won’t say the same thing if it was rugby league that is going to the olympics…ha ha.
Sth Auckland 1st XV said | February 4th 2010 @ 7:12pm | Report comment
What a clown. The Kangaroos are only known in Australia, NZ and parts of Coronation Street, England. Outside of that, no one’s heard of them, or rugby league for that matter.
Westy said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
trevor just to finish of i do believe we will get agood crowd to the randwick v uni game but it will be far from the 65000 for the Eels v bulldogs game. we have the situation where premier club rugby has different rules to internatinal game and paradoxically ratings for premier club rugby have gone up as well as crowds whilst ratings for provincial sides and wallabies went down.
I realise things are different in NZ but you have as equally passionate rugby supporters on this side of the tasman who ignore facts of where we are at. i would love for Parramatta rugby union club to pull acrowd of 64000 but they do not and I have a genuine affection for the local team who does and that is a rugby league team. That is what i grew up with. my father always took me to see the wallabies. Imprint has been left.
In 2003 we had rugby administrators who basically believed rugby league was dead and made spending and management decisions on that basis. they were flawed and we pay the price.
All is not bad but I will not tolerate a repeat of the past. the decisions made now determine the future. Platitude yes but at least base them on fact not what some like to think.
Do not equate NZ rugby position with that of Australia.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
good on parammata for finally playing the eels in a major semi-finals . you know it and everyone knows it that if it was a eels vs titans semi we will probably see a crowd of just over 20,000.
i remember a lot of australian rugby league players, board members and journalists and fans saying that rugby union was dead all over the world including a warriors ceo and graham lowe also saying rugby would be nz national sports when the warriors enter the nrl.
after watching the warriors made the grandfinal one year i realise even if they won the nrl two years in the row they would be just another kiwi team in an australian competition. we do jump up when our yachtmen, basketballers, cricketers, netballers, footballers and olympians are doing well internationally. that goes for the anz netball teams, wellington pheonixs, breakers and the warriors in an australian competitions.
but nz would always and always a rugby union nation like afl are in victoria and soccer in brazil and italy.
gee man we just won the rugby league world cup last year. the so call pinnacle of rugby league but in nz it was just like another warriors win that hadly made front page news. we didn’t even have parade for them.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Good post westy, why you are still wasting your time with club rugby is beyond me, but anyhow, Siva, why dont you go and have alook at that rugby league world cup, its over in NZ for all to see, its history goes back over 50 years way longer than any rugby union cup, and its history is the most fascinating in any sport, besides that, it might be the only silverware you ever see.
Mate at least the Warriors and Aucland know a good thing when they see it, the NRL, and Wellington also wants some of our World Class action. Cheers dude.
You keep flogging your has-beens over to france, along with the ole has been wannabee, Eddie (that league player could make millions in france) Jones.
Jerry said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
What’s so fascinating about the League World Cup, Oikee?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
the four nations world cup played by new zealand, australia, france and great britain that took four years to complete. but it was really a south auckland, nsw & qld, yorkshire and south west of france.
how many profits did all the rlwc made?
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
five million aus dollars. so what? i havent read all the comments on this thread so if someone is claming that league is more popular round the world then union then your points would make sense. If not then you are willy waving and just repeating what we already know albeit with the usual union calculator.
Chris said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:03am | Report comment
“you know it and everyone knows it that if it was a eels vs titans semi we will probably see a crowd of just over 20,000.”
Actually: They played last week in the second round of the finals and got 28,000 (which incidentally the Tah’s only beat once all season). While you are at it try naming the last time that a non-International Union game got 75,000 in Australia.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Come on Chris,
Stade Francis pull that number every week according to Sila, what he did not tell you is that their real stadium only holds 20 thousand.
When a rugby union club anywhere gets more numbers than the Broncos, we will all know the world is brain-dead.
The Kangaroos with the most recognisable logo in world sport, the green with the gold V. I will go to France with a jersey and do a study. Just to shut these dudes up.
Jerry said | September 27th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
I can’t even think what the Kangaroos logo actually looks like (but then I’d struggle to draw the Wallaby logo either).
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
tell us when was the last time a regular season nrl game got 75,000 or a rugby league international got 75,000 ?
JayRizz said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
Yeah we didn’t have a parade for them…Cause all the unionites had the shits over the kiwis actually winning A world cup. Would’ve had something for cricket or netball if they had won A world cup, but league? Far too jealous for that sort of carry on.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
I’m going to say something crazy here. I agree to a certain extent with this article. Rugby and League could actually merge. But not in Aus or England. Worldwide its a definite possibility. If the IOC ratifies Rugby early next month then League in many countries would have no choice in the face of overwhelming odds. The IRB has been inundated with requests in assisting the re-structure or establishment of Rugby in countries worldwide. Many have enquired about either regaining an IRB Sevens tournament or getting one. A country like China has already stated that if the decision goes through Rugby will go from being a small game run on the fumes of an oily rag to having access to facilities and athlete development programs. Along with Govt sponsored expansion into every single province in the country.
A merger could happen but it would be more of an envelopement. And no rules changes.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Couldnt care less. Union could be forced down peoples throats by a totalitarian regime and corrupt governments desperate for part of the pie from the equally corrupt IOC. The IRB are more then welcome to jon that pack of parasites, old fascists and hanger ons. I still will prefer league no matter what and would prefer to to be the much smaller sport for now and forever rather then join that gang of old bastards.
macavity said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
Union already has been forced down peoples throats by a totalitarian, corrupt government, jeff. it was called the french vichy government, and marks the time when RU and the nazis were comfortable bedfellows. the history is despicable and french RL, at the time by far the most popular rugby code in france, still hasn’t recovered from having its assets given to RU and the game banned.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
Rugby league wasn’t by far the most popular of the 2 codes in France at the time although it was clearly the code in the ascendant while union was struggling to maintain its position.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
don’t believe what you read or heard from the rugby league forums. rugby union was always the number one game. it was only because france got kicked out of the five nations that their league international side was the only one playing. once the ban was lifted rugby union fans went back to the code they love the most.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
Do you enjoy making up history?
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:02pm | Report comment
The ban of france from the five nations was definitely a factor but your simplistic fantasy is a nonsense. Sports fans of any code who think the popularity of any sport is simply a matter of preference are only scratching the surface of tha matter. Thast ok for your willy waving level of debate though.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Do you enjoy making up history?
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
Not this old chestnut again. I’ve got news for you. WW2 finished in 1945. Its 2009. The Vichy Govt is long gone. The French RL has had 64 years to recover. If they haven’t it’s not Rugby fault its theirs. The crowds didn’t return and Rugby prospered after the war. If it meant that much to the French they would have turned their backs on Rugby. They didn’t.
Here’s a bit of history for you. Everyone familar with the story of Troy. Well there were actually nine different Troy’s. The one from the Illiad was the 7th. It was sacked and raised to the ground on 6 previous occasions. Each time until the destruction of the 9th they rebuilt from nothing often to greater or at least equal status than the previous.
Basically, stop arking back to a regrettable time in history and dwelling on it. Move on. RL in France has had ample time to rebuild but hasn’t.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
In many ways what you say is true although rugby league still had obstacles put in its path by the less than honourable union authorities in France following the end of the war however it is also true that the french rugby league authorities haven’t made the best of the opportunities available to them but that appears to be changing.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
the french rugby league has their better years in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s. way after the war. it was their own fault because once france international rugby union team was excepted back to the five nations championship after been ban for a while rugby union never looked back.
why didn’t rugby league promote itself in coutries that didn’t played any of the codes ?
its because it was a club game and the arl and rfl didn’t want to promoted.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
Its amazing how people are so keen to celebrate thier traditions and triumphs from the past but when its somethign negative suddenly thats in the past let it go. Regrettable? Jeez, nice understatement.
I think rugby union in france has been pretty decent in the recent pass, laporte for example when he was sports minister seems to have very positive towards to league. Toulouse have been also very supportive of TO’s attempt to get the superleague, although obviously frictions abound seeming a lot of thiss was tied up with issues of colloboration and resistance to the boche. Not something easily forgotten in france im sure you’ll apreciate.
However as soon as the FRU return the money and property they stole then all will be well with the world. At least they are kind enough to let us use our name at last. Only took 40 odd years, which was regretttable.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
Jeff
The “regrettable” was the War. My point was that the Vichy Govt seems to be brought up as a historical attack on RU on a regular basis. Yes, it was underhanded but it was 64 years ago. In the past some have accreditted this occurance to why League never expanded further than it has. Which is complete BS.
RL in France have had many years to re-establish itself on a much larger scale. But it hasn’t. Rugby cannot be blamed for this. I’m not saying forget the past instead accept it happened and look forward to the future and how ti once again reach the levels it once was. The people who run Rugby in France today aren’t the same as those of the past.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
The people who run union in France now should do the decent thing then.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
Mate it was a lot more then underhand. You cant seperate sport from the issue of colloboration under vichy overall, the issues are part of a broad problem french society had with coming to terms with that. In fact lets call a spade a spade. The basis of vichy was french fascism and the rugby union was up to its eyeballs in that.
I definitely think that french rugby league has to take responsibility for its failings. The great post war teams were products of a pre-war system, that system including the name, resources (including an actual stadium in toulouse), access to schools was as much to blam which was the legacy of vichy. Its no good just trying to limit vichy and its effects to the war time period as if eveything was re-set as soon as paris was liberated, the damage was long term and deep.
I suggest as an experiment we take away australian rugby union assets, names, players, monies for four years and see how well they recover.
Pete said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
Here we go again. How do you know that RL in France would be thriving? There wasn’t any ‘apparent oppression’ of RL is any other countres… and apart from OZ and Northern England RL has ever got a foot hold. Even if RL did get off the ground in France. Your ‘4 nations’ tournamant will still only be a 4 nations tournment.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
How do you know it wouldn’t be? There has been plenty of oppression of rugby league in other countries although clearly not on the scale of the French situation.
if the union authorities in France apologise and reparations for the money and assets they stole during WWII we can put all that behind us.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Its a bit like trying to get the government to say sorry, Dont forget, league could not expand world -wide until just recently, their was bans on the game right up until 1995, and the kiwis had bans in schoools over their, take about being a scared insecure comp.
Bring it on Siva, league is griowing now at a nice rate,
once you get the 7’s into the olmypics, do you really think players will want to go from running attack , back to the bogfest you call union 15 man game, no, they will go straight to the running game league, as they are doing in Fiji.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
Really? Are you sure?
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
Jeff
Considering the often intsense hatred the French had toward Germany throughout its history surely at the end of the War they would have turned there back on the game. But they didn’t. With the exception of Australia every country League has gone head to head with Union its has been Union coming out on top. There is no reason that it wouldn’t have happened in France. Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t France hold and at least play in the first Rugby League World Cup final. My Grandfather has told me stories of the French playing League here in Australia. In the 50’s. So they did recover to an extent. They simply didn’t go on with it. Rugby did.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
Germany didn’t ban rugby league in France. The Vichy government did with some prompting from collaborationist elements from union.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
Look up Action Francaise. The nature of these things in europe were a lot more compex then simply hating the germans. For a lot of french people the nazis were preferable to bolshevism. We over look the political element at this at our peril. Not just from the union side as well – one final of rugby league had the players singing the internationale. As ever we are looking at this through our modern eyss, inter-war europe is a compex and dark place. Sport does not and could not escape that.
I make the point elsewhere. It was the damage to the infrastructure of french rugby league that was the problem. The 1950’s team were great but they were not replaced. We all know the importance of juniors, training resources etc. Maybe im overtstating this, i dont claim to be an expert, and its a interesting topic of research to know the exact relationship between the various factors. For what its worth i do think there was a latent level of support for union, and thier banning from the five nations helped league, buts it not the only factor.
Really enjoyable debate guys, despite the code warrior nonsense.
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
Steffy
I know Germany didn’t ban Rugby in France. However, the Nazi’s helped to install the Vichy Govt. And believe me even today the French remenber that. For many the Vichy Govt were seen as Nazi puppets. Bascially the French front for the Nazi’s.
My point is that throughout both Nations history there had been a dead seed hatred toward each other and anything to do with one another. It lead to the outbreak of both World Wars.The Vichy Govt included. With the fall of Nazism and the Vichy Govt. the french populus had the opportunity to turn away from Rugby but they didn’t.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
After the war rugby league had to start again pretty much from scratch. All the money and infrastructure was with union. De Gaulle also saw fit to pump huge sums of money into union.
Siva Samoa said | September 27th 2009 @ 1:06am | Report comment
another rugby league historians. heaps of them now days.
Westy said | September 25th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Siva i can only say this one more time. i do not and never have compared position of New Zealand rugby league to NZRU. All I did was to point out Warriors crowds in 2009 went up by an average of 35.7% in 2009 and they had the largest growth in NRL merchandising sales puting them in sixth position. One would have to be insane to compare them to NZRU etc. i accept Trevor allan point their support is restricted to Auckland.
What i am talking about is a premise in an article that is false. rugby League in australia is not in decline. if this makes you unhappy fair enough.What makes me unhappy is when some in australian rugby union mistakenly believe it is and make management and financial decisions as if it is.
All I have tried to do is put some factual material forward to establish that rugby league in australia is still a potent force.
I lose patience with this argument that rugby union is the real international game . Of course it is. its international perspective will always see rugby survive in Australia. The question is about Australian rugby union nothing else. It is not and never has been a NZ problem. there are different cultures and histories both equally valid.
The critical question Siva is where to from here.You are right rugby union is better off then it was in the 70’s and 80’s.
However i genuinely believe we have gone backwards in australia over the last 6 years.
Part of this demise has been the unfortunate habit of some in Australian rugby to assume internatinal presence is enough to take on a powerful and underrated domestic competitior. We have done this on more than one occassion. The ARU seems to pursue a policy of taking them on every World Cup year. The problem in Australia is the other 3 years.
It is the height of foolishness not to recognise the reality of rugby league’s presence.It is not hypocritical to also have some respect and genuine affection for an excellent domestic competition that displays skills commom to rugby union.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
no one is arguing with rugby league in australia and don’t think im unhappy to make you and your code look good. league has had a good year in nsw and queensland. and i don’t read anyone from the aru insisting that league is going to die. many nrl clubs didn’t made a profit last year and cronulla sharks are lucky they are still in the competition.
just give time for the fans of rugby union in australia to get use to this franchise teams they have now. you must remember it took a lot of the nrl teams that were force to merge a while to get the crowds and fans to supported. give it time the rugby union fans will get behind their teams. if the reds started win they would get the fans back. its always like that with rugby union in australia. everyone supports a winner and the wallabies aint winning. how can you say rugby union in trouble in australia with over 80,000 players and millions in the bank while league in nz is ok with only 15,000 players and no money in the bank ? double standards i think.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Go away, why do you think rugby league has jumped into bed with America, once America sees rugby league do you really think they are going to pump millions into a sport as complicated and spasmatic rules as union. League will always have a place, hopefully america can take to the game and produce some talent.
The Olmypic rugby comp is nothing more than a skills test for rugby league. And a poor one at that. Just ask westy, NRL skills are light-years ahead of union skills, why do you think they introduced league coaches to Union, now its come back to bite them on the Noddle, the defence has out=played attack, which takes me back to a previous blog, Drop 2 players.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
In Australia, rather ridiculously and inaccurately, the codes are often called rugby and league – so lets merge them and call it rugby league.
oikee said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
Love your work Steffy, . Cheers.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
yeah rugby league with 15 players in each team and a huge world cup. wow. cant wait.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Or rugby league with 13 players and tries in the world cup final. Sound good eh?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
or a rugby world cup final watched by 80,000 in the stadium and 18 million rugby fans on free to air tv in the in the host country and more than 50 million all over the world.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
When will that be?
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
wasnt the last world cup final between the two most populous rugby playing countries (england and south africa) watched by 33 million? I think rugby union has done an amazing job since turning professional in sometimes very difficult circumstances but this constant overtstating of its popularity is getting silly.
Norm said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:29pm | Report comment
Couldn’t agree more Jeff.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Siva, their will be 100 million rugby league fans in america alone soon, their is already250 thousand according to someone’s post. And that was for only 2 games played. Your on a hiding to no-where my bogged down union loving friend, who has no friwends left in OZ. They all watching league mate.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
No only 250,000 viwer’s watched the first game. In terms of the total TV audience of the US that doesn’t even record a blip on the radar. It has nothing to do with fans. In the grand scheme of things in doesn’t even rate. Hell even the Churchill Cup which is a second tier Rugby tournament show on cable easily outrated it.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 1:17am | Report comment
already250 thousand according to someone’s post….ha ha….the first time he provinded a source and what a classic…ha ha.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Trevor Allen
That’s more than the city of Canberra!
I have read that thousands of Kiwis head across the ditch on a weekly basis looking to better their lot. I must say I have experienced an increasing number in this part of the country and indeed throughout Oz; Kiwis are a ubiquitous mob to be sure.
I also scan the NZ Herald from time to time which seems to be regularly bemoaning the NZ brain drain to Oz and the rest of the world for that matter. This rag has endless comment threads to do with the subject, so I guess it must be a substantial number of Kiwis heading to our fatal shores to warrant this sort of attention.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Sheek.
Yeah, I thought that might humour you a little.
Did the indigenous game of Marngrook not also borrow from Union in the kick to kick department professor?
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:49pm | Report comment
Who knows – one day some of these Kiwis might take a love of leather back to NZ.
Freud of Football said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
It’s amazing that 27 references to the AFL (not including my own) were made in an article that was about the two rugby codes and a potential merger.
At least it should be amazing, it was more-or-less expected by anyone who has seen who the league and union fans react when their codes are attacked.
To all you League/Union fans, get your own houses in order and ignore the AFL, there is nothing you can learn from them, their administration isn’t great, their setup is ordinary and their expansion plans are brutish and yes the AFL still has SOME problems with the off-field conduct of their players but League & Union would be far better served just looking at themselves and figuring out what they need to do, the AFL should play absolutely zero part in it.
mushi said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Why is amazing that when talking about various football codes the AFL is mentioned, especially after you purposely baited for a response very early in the peace.
It would be very surface analysis if when the article raises concerns around national growth and sporting relevance that it discussion didn’t include some mention of the AFL, I would have thought someone using the name of a famous analyst would understand this.
I find it strange you feel the need to continue with this passive aggressive defence of the AFL when it isn’t even under attack?
Freud of Football said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
I didn’t bait anything, I merely noted what was going to happen and inevitably it did, everyone started banging on about the AFL in a piece about two rugby codes.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:46am | Report comment
jeez you sat down and counted the amount of references to afl? ok.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
that would be good news for rugby union in australia with all this kiwis and south africans coming here in large numbers. it has benefit rugby union in perth big time with majority of their players from the two countries i mention. i got my source from the new zealand herald as well.
Trevor Allan said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
just for oikee. afl has bigger numbers of players in samoa, fiji, tonga and south africa than rugby league and soon with the rates its going it will have more players in nz too in the near future.
Mick from Giralang said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
Where’s your evidence for this?
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
afl is played in schools in all three islands. rugby league is only played with a couple of pub teams made up of rugby union players.
Chris said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:10am | Report comment
Yeah – and It’s really showing. There are way more Islanders in the AFL than NRL…
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
tell me how many of those islanders in the nrl players came from the local rugby league competition in samoa, tonga and fiji ? its showing alright.
Mick from Giralang said | September 27th 2009 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Auskick strikes again…
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Go play somewhere else, you know as well as i do that the NRL has all the Tonga Samoa and Fijian players wrapped up, go watch the Toyota cup you idiot, every secong players is from one of the island nations, ,, You guys have no idea, this is a rugby league brainchild which has been happening for over 20 years now, along with a cable deal in America, you really must think this happens over nite, It takes years fool.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
I ask you again Oikee. How many NRL players (and under 20) came from the local rugby league competition in Samoa, Tonga, and Fiji ? None.
JayRizz said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
How many S14 players came from the local rugby comp in the islands?
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
here’s your fiji rugby league development work all playing club rugby . thanks for help out rugby league. read this paragraph from an article from the fiji times.
in what turned out to be an exciting rugby match between two renowned Nad-roga clubs laced with union and league national reps
http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=130402
sheek said | September 25th 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
I’m don’t necessarily subscribe to the view (anymore, anyway) that a merger between union & league, or takeover (take your pick), would actually help Australian rugby.
There was an article recently about trying to lure Hayne (no longer relevant) across. But I thought to myself, they guy would be wasted in union. Whatever their faults, neither Sailor nor Rogers nor Tuqiri nor Tahu were utilised properly by union, so forget Hayne, he would be wasted.
Also, it was obvious even before rugby league broke away from union in 1908, that we already had a historical weakness in our forwards, especially the frontrow. In both the series against the ABs in 1907, & the Wallabies tour of Engalnd & Wales 1908/09, it was apparent we didn’t have the same firepower up front as the All Blacks of 1905/06 & Springboks 1906/07.
Some of the union guys (forwards) – McCabe, Craig, Barnett, Graves, Burge – went onto play for the Kangaroos. So while some of the current leagueies would give the union game some ginger, they might still be found wanting technically.
So while a merger or whatever sounds fine in theory, it’s really debatable as to whether it would be worth it.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Which gets back to my Super star status, their is no running superstars in Union, never will be, league is a game that produces superstars, every club wants a superstar, another reason Hayne decided to stay with rugby league, he was sat down with David Gallop and he showed Jarryd Hayne the 10 year rugby league plan, He put the pen to paper this week.
Working Class Rugger said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Mate their are many Rugby Superstars. You can’t name any because you live in your insular deluded world.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 1:15am | Report comment
10 year rugby league plan….nrl – four nations, nrl – rest you from playing four nations, nrl – four nations, nrl – rest you from playing four nations, nrl – four nations.
Jay said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
I fail to see why this is developing into an argument about league v union.
I enjoy watching both codes – admittley I prefer the NRL to S14 and I prefer Intl RU over Intl RL.
It should be noted that there are many players currently playing in both codes who have grown up on both RU and RL. Players like O’Conner, Elsom, Barnes, Giteau, Gasnier, Cross, Hunt etc played both codes as schoolkids. It just shows that we both produce great athletes and it a credit to our grass roots work domestically.
These codes will not merge and this article is absolutley rubbish. We have co-existed for 100 year. Players have gone back and forth but at the end of the day our codes are complments (not substiutes). The real enemy that both codes need to keep out is that aerial ping pong known as AFL!
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
So League and Union are like kissin’ cousins?
Actually modern day League is starting to resemble aerial ping pong in many respects.
As an example, who was that Bronco who leapt across to take the ball high over the try line last weekend?
His movement was a classic floating-across-the-pack move – very, very different to what you normallys see. Many you guys may not be able to see it – but take it from me – that floating action just doesn’t arise out of the blue.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
no. league wants to connect their history to rugby union history . league started when they change their rules and break away from rugby union. rugby union started when william webb ellis pick up the ball and run with it.
its a way rugby league fans can feel secure that they also belong in the big picture when the truth is they been professional for over 100 years and it still only played in nsw, qld , yorkshire and lancastershire.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Rugby league and union have a shared history, to suggest otherwise is a nonsense.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
Check the Australian rugby league website. Its all there.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:39pm | Report comment
Mate i’ll repeat it again so you can undestand – no significant rule change were made for 11 years by the northern union. A quick potted summary that traduces the chronology doesnt alter that. Its a matter of recorded fact. Exactly how ould you change your rules before breaking away? Sheesh. More so rugby league was not professional for over a hunded years, it was semi-profesional.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
jeff, the day the northern union change its rules and cut two players is the day rugby league was born or they can always said it all started in a pub in huddersfield.
the australian rugby league website represent league in australia and if their history says they broke away from rugby union then thats the history that all rugby union fans knows too.
if you can’t take the truth start a new sport and write or your history like most league fans.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
Do you even care that the web ellis thing has been shown to be a myth again and again and is accepted as such by every rugby union historian of any standing? League also has professional teams in france, wales and london.
Personally i love union, welsh union more then any other (looking forward to cardiff v scarlets tomorrow night – free ticket woot) but the arrogance and pomposity of some union fans is getting sickening.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Siva is your tipical Kiwi die-hard, he thinks the world revolves aroung the All-blacks. And he loves money.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
your world revolve around the nrl competition without it you have nothing. rugby union is bigger than that but i don’t want to tell you. we don’t have all day.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
many rugby union playing nations (including wales, ireland) all have their own version of how rugby union started and if i was irish or welsh i won’t support the english version as original. i know how you guys hate everything english.
over 100 years of professional rugby league and they only have one welsh, one french and one london team. why is it that rugby league in england is very similar to league in australia ?
very strong in some parts of the whole country but instead of having professional teams nationally they rather put professional clubs in other countries.
i love rugby union and wales is my favourite team after manu samoa. i use to get up early in the morning watching the six nations and my listern to the welsh sing land of our fathers. six former all blacks legends had the welsh national anthem played at their funerals.
i can understand you getting upset but don’t think this is one way traffic because you are
claiming to love union but not defending it against the leaguies. if you think the union boys here makes you sick then try and go to a rugby league forum. you won’;t last in there even if you had a little love for union.
my apology if i offened you but many of my post was towards oikee. i’ll try and explain it probably towards you next time.
Steffy said | September 27th 2009 @ 1:50am | Report comment
How many pro union teams in north wales? We keep hearing union is popular in Wales yet really it is only a few small places in south wales.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
like nz and australian rugby league then where there’s hardly any league played in other parts of the country.
Republican said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
Sean Fagan
Apparently Wills also stated on his return from Mother Albion that the grounds in Australia were far too hard to ever entertain playing the game of rugby and that an alternative game would therefore have to be created.
With such a fine Irish name as yours, you would only be all too aware of the very understated Gaelic influence on our national game. It is also noted by some historians that during the games foundation years, most of those playing under the tutelage of the Wills school of rules, blatantly refused to adhere to these, insisting that theywould only play the Irish way and so our games grand evolution took flight.
Marngrook in my opinion also played a significant role but it’s influences were not particulary P.C and were supressed along with any Irish links, due to the biggoted status quo of early Melbourne town.
Sean Fagan said | September 25th 2009 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
That’s all after the events of 1858-59 – all I’ve been pointing to is where Wills and Australian football began i.e. up to the moment where Wills attempted to have rugby adopted and failed (the first rules meeting of the Melb FC).
My understanding from UK football/sports historians is that Gaelic football is an entirely separate evolution of folk football.
While Aust rules and gaelic football look similar, there is no evidence of Aust rules evolving in any way from Gaelic football. There is no Aust rules historian who accepts the Gaelic football influence theory. There simply is no evidence for it, other than the games look similar, reinforced by cross-code games. Refer to Geoffrey Blainey’s “A Game of Our Own” which provides an extensive look at the theory and the position of Aust rules historians/researchers.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
Republican
I once responded to a post of yours in the identical manner that Sean has above – apart from the similarity of the two games – there is no evidence of a link – absolutely none. There is cetainly far more evidence of a link to rugby than there is to a link to Gaelic football.
As at 1859, we know that rugby along with Sheffield/Cambridge rules and others exist – and the original rules of aussie rules bear quite a close similarity to all these games combined – and that makes a lot of sense because that’s the very best explanation we have of the origins of aussie rules.
We also know that from the outset, there was a clear tension between the running/carrying formats of early football and the kicking formats of early football, which owes much to the modern games of rugby and soccer we see today.
I say that because it’s not out of the question that other games would occupy positions between these two relative extremes (although early forms of both games were a lot closer back then than they are now).
Aussie rules is one such example, and one way or the other, Gaelic football has found a similar position between these two points.
Whether it happened independently, or whether one influenced the other – we do not know (nor should we assume that if there is an influence, it is necessarily going one way).
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
It always struck me as strange that AFL guys get so worried about the evolution from a common ancestor, or at least the nebulous swamp that all sports emerged from. What does it matter if aussie rules had a strong influence from this sporting milieu. Its still a great and distinct game as is Gridiron which went through the same process. This need for ‘genetic’ purity comes across as weird although im sure most aussie rules fans couldnt care less.
Pippinu said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:10pm | Report comment
Jeff
how are any of these discussions any different to what your blog is all about?
Having an interest in history should not be confused with being worried about it.
We question, explore, prod, put to the test, look for anomalies – and get nowhere fast – but I’m not sure that you can jump from that to accusing people of seeking genetic purity.
Some think there’s an Irish influence on the game; I agree with Sean that there isn’t; Sean views rugby as the main ingredient of Australian Football circa 1859; I see it as an important part of a mix of a few related schoolboy games from that period; I honestly don’t think there’s anything more in it than people being genuinely interested.
At the end of the day, you’re right, all the footballs derive from something approximating a single source.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Yeah the discussions are great. Im fascinated by the different rule changes and the context in which they were created – especially the different answers to the same questions union and league came up with i.e. restarting platy after a tackle. Why anyone would want to be dislocated from that intertwined process is what i fail to understand. The irony is that even afl was created to not to be rugby then that would be an influence in it self, albeit a negative one.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
just to add to this conversation im an afl fan and always support the dockers. i always thought that afl roots might have come from an irish person living here in australia because there are similarity between the two games (afl & gaelic football).
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
History Of Rugby League by Australian Rugby League
Rugby league began in 1895, as the ‘Northern Union’, when clubs in the North of England broke away from the RFU. The clubs wanted to compensate their working-class players for time away from work for rugby tours and injuries.
The RFU refused, saying “if men couldn’t afford to play, then they shouldn’t play at all”. In the decade that followed, rugby league made changes setting itself apart from rugby union.
Teams were reduced from 15 to 13 players (two forwards were eliminated), and the play-the-ball was introduced to lessen the need for scrums and to replace rugby union’s scrappy rucks and mauls (where the ball often disappeared from view for minutes on end).
Meanwhile in Australia (NSW & Qld) and New Zealand, rugby was controlled by the rugby union bodies affiliated to the English RFU. They all enforced the rules of amateurism upon their footballers.
The predominantly working-class rugby footballers and supporters in Sydney and Brisbane were disheartened by the attitude of the rugby union authorities – and seemed likely to turn to Australian rules.
http://www.australianrugbyleague.com.au/about/history.php
This is the from the official Australian Rugby League website and thats the history I trust. Not some paranoia rugby league fans version because they can’t take it that they left and turn professional and thought they change their rules to make the game attractive. It turn out that their game was boring and it still stuck in the same suburbs for over 100 years and that rugby union is by far the biggest code out of the two.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
“This is the from the official Australian Rugby League website and thats the history I trust”
Shame it’s incorrect
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:16am | Report comment
sorry gort. but i’ll trust the australian rugby league over any fans ,
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:36am | Report comment
It won’t be the first mistake you have made
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
what mistake ? read it gort.
http://www.australianrugbyleague.com.au/about/history.php
Steffy said | September 27th 2009 @ 1:52am | Report comment
I have read it. It is inaccurate
macavity said | September 25th 2009 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
“It turn out that their game was boring”
thats right – it used to be RU.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 9:53pm | Report comment
Dude you should learn to read these things a bit more closely. That is clearly a potted history, and a not a very good one. Broken time payments were never professionalism but recompense for missed work. The reality was a lot more complex then that. The first major rule changes were in 1906, eleven years after the split.But hey whatever floats your boat brave little code warrior that you are.
Sean Fagan said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:45am | Report comment
I wrote that article, and I’d be happy for you to email to me your views on what makes it “not a very good one” – or post them here if you prefer, but we’ll probably bore everybody else. You’re correct that it is a potted history, and by neccessity it has to encapsulate much into a little. Anyone interested in what the article covers will naturally seek out further reading to gain a fuller understanding.
Rule changes were made in the first decade, amongst the many were abolition of line-outs, all goals reduced to 2 points, unlawful to kick out on the full, halfbacks to retire behind the scrum, and having a scrum after every tackle – going from 1895/96 to August 1906 (13 a-side and play-the-ball) is near enough to a decade in the context of an article traversing more than a century.
By our standards today, RL players weren’t professional, but as far as the general consensus of the public of the late 1800s and early 1900s was concerned, they were professionals. Perhaps the more correct term was non-amateur, but using that as a descriptive term would just confuse.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:51am | Report comment
The union writers and the union authorities of the day considered them to be professional rugby players despite the amount of money they received often being dwarfed by the money union players of the day received in expenses.
I doubt the general public cared either way.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 2:26am | Report comment
Hi Sean
Email winging its way to you.
Siva Samoa said | September 25th 2009 @ 10:28pm | Report comment
oikee from sydnet australia dreams and lies
1. money when Toulouse gets into the Super league
2. i hate to dissapoint you there big fella, but Australia nearly has as big a Kiwi immigrant population as NZ,
3. America is buying the rights for the NRL
4. rugby league has 16 teams from oz and 1 nz, it will be 2 from nz soon with wellington to be included.
5. from the age of 14, (which pay jumiors around 50 to 150 thousand dollars
6. Rugby league is going to gobble up anything that union can offer in this country, take a look at the island nations, PNG, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, even the french Polynesion nations are starting to look into league
7. League is going to be the big money maker for Polly players, they will take this wealth and encourage others as they are doing,
8. Jarryd Hayne has done more for Fiji than any other union player has done for their nation. He has made the whole nation proud
9. Sparc are controlling rugby league in NZ now
10. Like i said, league is going places where Union will not, public schools in america as it has done all round the world, while you are waiting and watching your private sector
11. Thank you Capt, yes league has had no exposure, next year it will have exposure, and it has now with only 4 finals games shown. Given that rugby league has had no exposure
12. the Rabbits are a growing force in america.
13. Clive is a rugby league man deep down, he is also a bussiness man 1st, when rugby league is shown in America to a national audeince week-in week-out he will certainly want to be part of that.
14. As will all big companies, like i mentioned, you would be a fool to pull your support from rugby league, its a game going places and very fast, behind the scenes , big things are happening, the super tanker is picking up steam, get on or get left behind.
15. The state of Origin will be sold to the yanks next year hopefully. Its already shown to over 30 countries around the world with a reveered following.
16.I will take you back to my previous comment, if league never exsisted, union would be league today, they would have changed the rules and dropped 2 players so the game was better, i heard the other day a comment about making the feild wider for union?
17. Union wont ever get any better, they cant change into a game they call rugby league.
League is the future, you just cant see this.
18. Warren also has recorded a separate drop-in that specifically welcomes SPIKE’s viewers to the coverage and another that provides a link to the American National Rugby League and both drop-ins are sprinkled throughout the telecast.
19. This article was taken from the American Rugby union news site. What happened to all those union lovers, Union this, Union, that, Union is world-wide, Stade Francis is the biggest club ,blah blah blah, Stade Francis play 1 game out of a large stadium and give away free tickets to one and all.
20. Thats annoy’s people, knowing that the broncos are the most powerful rugby team in the world, well its true. We have the best ground for the game.
21. Thats annoy’s people, knowing that the broncos are the most powerful rugby team in the world, well its true. We have the best ground for the game.
22. No worries, they even have their own league channel over their now, the smart people realise that league is going places,
23. last year Fiji declared that league is now the number 1 code, after rugby union Fiji lost 2 million dollars
24. last year Fiji declared that league is now the number 1 code, after rugby union Fiji lost 2 million dollars
25. Union is for greedy pensioers and brainwashed Kiwis.
26. i watched a NFL game the other day, went to the toilet, made a coffee, took the kids to school, and come home just in time for them to tell me they had originally made a error on the 1st ruling, Union anyone.?
27. Well it is, true tah, dont forget that they sold more t/v antenee than they ever did watching union, and Jarryd Hayne is the New Mal Meninga to the Fijians.
28. Mate league blew them off the planet, and Lebanon and the arab republics will get to see the worlds greatest ever point scorer soon, the one, the only, Hazem, the El-Magic. cheers.
29. that spike post was written by Rugby Union news USA, yes your dormant lifeless code you call rugby in America, your hardcore millions of union lovers around the world, now having no chioce but to watch the greatest rugby league comp on Earth, the NRL.
30. France is nothing but a retirement home for your pathetic union has-beens, Super league anyone?
31. France is nothing but a retirement home for your pathetic union has-beens, Super league anyone?
32. Cheers, my best mates a Tongon, straight from the heart of Union, even he loves league.
33. wait until they see origin at eden park, 10 thousand queenslanders showing them the way. Arrrrggghhh.
34. Good, they can use some of that money when Toulouse gets into the Super league,
35. 20 million euro, whoppee do, like i said, all union thinks about is money, too greedy to worry about the state of the game, its a dogs breakfast.
36. The Kangaroo sales left the Wallabies for dead last year, next year when the real 4 nations hits town this will not only be acheived again, but will make the Wallaby brand look like a pair of socks at Xmas.
37. The Kangaroos are the most recognised brand in the world of Rugby, they are just that Damm good.
38. the Kangaroo the most recognised brand in the world, Hahahahaha, yeah right, well the 4 nations will put paid to that, plenty of folk will watch and know who the kangaroos are, ask the all-blacks mate.
39. Go away, why do you think rugby league has jumped into bed with America, once America sees rugby league do you really think they are going to pump millions into a sport as complicated and spasmatic rules as union. League will always have a place, hopefully america can take to the game and produce some talent.
40.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
thank you 40 true statements, i will write them down and use them for future reference. Every time one is true i will remind you. Thanks Siva, now isn’t their some rugby on somewhere you can watch, all those profossional comps you where telling me about, ? Where are they. Tucked away nicely on Channel 3 foxsports, the channel that pubs in OZ dont receive.
circus said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
McCavity, Jeff
The French Rugby League side was the best national RL side in the world in 1954 so it seems spurious to suggest that the Vichy (Nazi) government in France in WWII is the reason they are the laughing stock of international rugby league today.
It’s the same argument that Steffy uses that rugby league has been discriminated against in Georgia, Romania, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Switzerland, Kenya, Uganda, Morocco, Tunisia, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil. It’s a conspiracy of the private schools, the media, the politicians, the establishment to prevent that wholesome working class game of RL develop in all these countries.
Steffy, along with the UK Parliamentary Committee on Rugby League, expected that when Rugby went “open” in 1996, 101 years after the Northern Union was created, that automatically Rugby League would be the dominant professional code. It didn’t happen.
It was mentioned above (maybe by Oikee) that the NRL’s average attendance was twice as big as the Top 14 in France. That is not true. Last year’s NRL average was 15,000 – the Top 14 averaged 13,000 up from 3,000 in 2001. Of course this has been a bumper year for the NRL and there might be tilt towards the NRL. However, Toulon vs Toulouse last week attracted 60,000 spectators in Marseille and despite your protestations at the number of free tickets that must have given out to get anyone to a rugby game it couldn’t match those given out for a Roosters or Raiders fixture. The average crowd for a French football game is a little over 20,000 so rugby is gradually getting closer to being number one. If France misses out in getting to World Cup in South Africa……
By the way, the average crowd for this year’s Super 14 was 30,000. I know you don’t like counting numbers in NZ and SA but they are part of the competition.
Jeff Baxter said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:38pm | Report comment
Again i lay down my challenge – let me take away everything australian rugby union has for four years, only returning the senior players after thet period and see how well they recover. No doubt they would put out an intially good team – but after while with no resources, no name, no juniors? Like i said elsewhere the actual measurable impact of that compared to the incompetence of league, the latent popularity of union, re-joining the five nations is difficult to assess but to say it has none is daft.
I have no knowledge of the other issues you mention but are you saying at no point in no other place did union attempt to stymie league by backhanded ways?
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
I certainly didn’t expect rugby league to be the dominant code after union went openly professional and I am unaware of a parliamentary committee on rugby league.
oikee said | September 27th 2009 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Sorry, i have not mentioned top 14 on this post, all i have said is that the NRL is the biggest rugby comp in the world, and the Broncos the biggest club. Someone else mentioned that one, i dont make false statements.
Working Class Rugger said | September 27th 2009 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
“i dont make false statements.” …….Bullshit!!
Midfielder said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
As an outsider to both codes in a way … may I offer a little advice I have often been told as a Football person…
If ever I dare to mention Football size world wide I am told … listen mate we live in Australia .. look at the AFL crowds and ratings … In fact many a nose in the air rugby official in the past would boost to me … Australia mate … football down the bottom of the heap where it orta be…
Well to the RU folk … can you south of the Murry … see any RU in any … I mean in any significance way .. If not for RL in NSW & QLD … RU would not be the force it is today…. please be fair…
Now my good RL folk … without RU … you would not have counter to the international game of football that is RU gives you … you should also be fair… bury the hatchet it is in both your interest…
Both RU & RL should both thank the heavens for the third group of rugby players you have left out and the third biggest group of organised sport in the country … Touch ….. please this is where the skill is the footwork is learnt…
Just for the record … Football, Netball, Touch, AFL , ……………………………RL……………….RU…
Remember there is a Brotherhood or should be .. anyway maybe consider.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYw1aNSfZls
On another issue … poor old Westy comes in for a bit of stick … I work out in the WS … not much RU talk out that way … me thinks it is a bit like … shoot the messenger …
Working Class Rugger said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
Jeff
I am well aware of the history and political tensions that lead to both World Wars. Having studied them extensively throughout my schooling. I could write you a 20 page essay on both.
What I am saying is it is obvious that French Rugby League has allowed itself to be held back by this. There is alot of bitterness still there. And it hasn’t done anyone any good.
I don’t usually get to involved in these cross code slug fests. I much prefer Rugby and tend to aviod talking about or watching League. I try to stick to my code. However, when Oikee comes on with his brash statements with absolutely no facts to back it up I can’t help myself.
I have actually enjoyed the historical element of this debate. It’s been a long time since I have had such a conversation. You may be able to tell I’m a little rusty.
Steffy said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:51pm | Report comment
I don’t believe french rugby league has allowed itself to be held back by it all. It wasn’t much looked into until Mike Rylance started digging around for his book, The Forbidden Game. The french government also looked into it a few years back and agreed with Rylance’s finding but the french rugby league governing body didn’t pursue the matter.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
nice story there steffy. maybe you can get mike rylance to write another myth like he did with the forbidden game.
south sydney could have wrote their own book about how the arl and everyone in australia are against them except their fans. should be an interesting read like the forbidden game.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
which bits specifically of mike rylance work is inaccurate? i assume you have the facts to back up an accusation that an author is lying.
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:16am | Report comment
the book had a anti rugby union mind written all over it. its like asking steffy to write a book on rugby union and afl.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
dude thats not good enough. you can’t accuse a published author of lying without some solid examples. just saying he is anti-union means nothing unless you can show some concrete examples with the proof that he was lying.
i’ll make your day worse: try reading some tony collins, an authority on union and he has to be as its his academic, professional job. your won’t like what you read but if you think he is lying then you have just entered the land of the deluded. step out of the code warrior mode and see some reality. doesnt have to make a single iota of a difference to your love of union but some unpalatable truths have to be faced. my motto always is that if you want to celebrate the past of your sport then you have to face the ugly side too. and yes that goes for both sports.
Steffy said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
The Forbidden Game is an excellently researched book with interviews with some of the key people at the time including Jean Borotra.
Still, facts are anathema to unionites so I can understand your distress.
Jeff Baxter said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:35am | Report comment
I don’t wish to be-labour the point but i think you are missing my answer to why the french didnt just turn their back on union. Its not about the tensions that led to the war but that significant portions of the french, including the elite, were symnpatheric to the nazis for a variety of reasons. We assume country versus country was the dominant dynamic involved but in reality the political divisions were just as important.
)
Vichy was not just a puppet regime, Marsall Petain didnt just appear from nowhere, nor was he lacking in support for various reasons. Dont be fooled by pictures of women having their heads shaved after the war, collaboration was not dealt with. When you remember people like Mitterand was involved in it, it becomes clear that things were not faced head on but conveniently forgotten. The situation with league tied into that.
Sad to hear you don’t watch league you are missing out on some cracking games and some great players. Im a died in the wool leaguie really but i wouldnt miss out on union (i’ll be easily spotted at the blues v scarlets game tomorrow night cuz i’ll be shouting at the players to “bloody get on with it as they re-set the fifth scrum or dawdle to a line out
Anyway i’ll finish my contribution to this monster thread with my historical fact of the week to help with the perspective thing. According to robert gate in his illustrated history of rugby league, a survey was done of three seasons in yorkshire between 1870 and 1873 and found 71 deaths whilst playing. Sheesh. Toughen up wallabies!
Also robert gate, who was the official historian of the game in 1989, says that the most significant rule changes were introduced in 1906. For your convenience ive written an article about it. We’ll get Siva to admit it at some point!
http://rugby-league.suite101.com/article.cfm/1906_when_rugby_league_became_the_13_man_game
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
lots of people die playing rugby in france that was one of the reasons they got kicked out of the five nations.
the war was a sad period for all in france and there were many more rugby union players that died fighting nazi germany than rugby league players.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT THESE RUGBY UNION GUYS ALL CALL ME A LIAR BUT HAVE NEVER EVEN TRIED TO DISMISS MY STATEMENTS ABOUT RUGBY LEAGUE BANS BY RUGBY UNION COMMUNISTS. NOT ONCE.
Does this mean i am telling the truth on that point, ? of course it does, look it up fella’s, its on the web under rugby league banned from countries, the UK millitary, and their is even a story about our wicked neibours, the kiwis banning league from schools. Pathetic, just like union lovers.
Siva Samoa said | September 27th 2009 @ 12:14am | Report comment
ha ha ha. is that why you rugby league fans are so angry all the time ? well i can understand you fellas getting upset espeacially knowing that rugby union is way bigger than your sport. you guys wonder why many countries chose rugby union instead of rugby league while telling the world its the best game ever…ha ha. someone has to be blame for that and i can see you paranoid league fans have drawn up a list. don’t forget to add bill clinton, george bush, Che” Guevara, prince harry and the current president of the olympics organisation to that list. get some help guys life is too short to be so angry about a myth.
oikee said | September 27th 2009 @ 8:02am | Report comment
I forgot to mention Sth Africa, that ban was lifted 1998. Look it up, i am not paranoid, and i never mentioned league being bigger than Union, All i have ever siad is that the NRL is the largest rugby Comp in the world,
which it is, 
And the bronc’s are a powerhouse, your the one whinging Siva.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 1:06am | Report comment
south africa’s was ban from fishing ? did you get that from that rugby league bible “the forbidden game” ?
Top 14 is the largest rugby Comp in the world. NRL is the largest league Comp in the world.
Oikee, what does the letter “N” in the NRL stand for ?
Midfielder said | September 25th 2009 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
Sean Fagan
Based on your knowledge would you agree with the FIFA doco from the 2006 WC build up … that punching the ball was a outlawed in rugby … and was more than likely part of rugby until it was made outside the rules…
BTW Sean… welcome to the Roar … I have seen your work often referenced too… so I fell in very good company…
Sean Fagan said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:57am | Report comment
cheers. I haven’t seen that doco (I don’t think), but generally, yes, I would agree that punching the ball forward was once allowed in rugby. I’ve made some comments earlier in this debate (good luck finding them!) – in both rugby codes today “knocking” (on) has come to include “deflection” or “drop” or “rebound”, but it’s intention was to simply outlaw what we would call “punching” of the ball forward.
See also:
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/22633/20081119-0019/www.rl1908.com/blog/australian-football.html
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
what made you to write that sean ? i read your website a couple of years ago and still do now and then . you obviously not the same guy now than the one back then.
but after reading your your website a couple of years ago i came to the conclusion that you were a very upset man towards rugby union and the website was really 90% anti union rants. something that i found in every rugby league forums and those hardcore rugby league fans spread your messages and your findings.
im not having a go at you but i find that your a different and a very understanding person now. i even seen your work you done on the history of australian rugby union and waratah history on one site which gave me that impression. i just want to ask you this question. would you have written a different history of rugby union and rugby league now that your understanding person and would you try and do a website for union history or become a rugby union historian as well ?
cheers.
Sean Fagan said | September 26th 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
I have this website too:
http://www.colonialrugby.com.au/
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
cheers sean. that was the website i was talking about. great site.
Midfielder said | September 26th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Sean
Thanks for your reply …. and the link….
The doco was shown when SBS where showing the cricket earlier this year I think it was a Test match … it was a FIFA made and was about the history of Football… I think FIFA made in for the 2006 WC … but don’t hold me to you ….
I am sure if you wrote to Les Murry or his producer they could direct you.
Midfielder
Westy said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:00am | Report comment
Anyway Wayne rugby league as you stated in your article is in serious decline in Australia I just got back from ANZ in front of 75000 screaming fans and the Eels let the dogs out of the semis in a very entertaining game of rugby league skills.
The crowd left in high spirits and was very well behaved. The tribalism is understood by our AFL friends but is lost on Australian rugby. Parramatta the aboriginal meeting place of the Eels were two slippery for a brave bulldogs outfit.
Domestically it is rugby league that has much to offer to Australian rugby not the other way around.
The problem is blokes like Siva and Trevor Allan are very genuine rugby blokes but they do not live in Australia and have little idea of our identity. Unlike NZ rugby union as a sport does not define who Australians are or attract the tribalism of the ordinary punter. I am just telling you the way it is . . All of sydney flocks to support Sydney Uni and all of Western and Southern Sydney (which is 2/3 of sydney ) rejoice whenever the waratahs play singing in unison
” That’s my team”
Siva Samoa said | September 26th 2009 @ 12:37am | Report comment
next time just remember to say that you are a true one eye rugby league fan russ 13. because your days are numbered pretending to be a rugby union fan and then go over to leagueunlimited.com forum and used your rugby league bias post from here to argue against rugby union.
you haven’t lived in nz russs and see that passsion and tribalism is also part of new zealand rugby union. when province against province and country teams come up against big city teams. just remember russ. when you mention australia you mean sydney becasue australia is a big country and i don’t see any tribalism in rugby league in south australia or western australia. melbourne or tasmania or up north. rugby league is not popular all over australia. in new zealand rugby union is popular in every 32 province of new zealand from northland to southland in the deep south island.
rugby union has more to offered because there is more money, more professional clubs and competitions all over the world and a very successful world cup that cater for females, youths, 7’s and the elite players.
oikee said | September 26th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Go home siva, your days are numbered as a union fan, your trapped in New Zealand because you know if you move to OZ you wont be abke to watch union, nobody else does over here. Pump your little 50 thousand crowd fists, that league lovers make up your numbers when the ole all-blacks plod into town. Listen my friend, Union in OZ is on death’s doorstep, next stop is the cemetary. Rugby league has its own 4 nations to follow now, and the world cup in England to look forward to, America will get that world cup live again on spike.
Is that now 41 or 42, lies, like i said, i will write them all down and tick them off as they happen.
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 1:00am | Report comment
if rugby in australia is on death’s doorstep then rugby league in new zealand is talking to god right now. rugby league has only been playing in four nations for over 100 years and the same international teams now plays in the four nations. surprise suprise. whats the next name change? IV Nations cup. The Fourth Trophy. New Four Nations. The Dirty Four. Its been Four In 100 years Cup.
Steffy said | September 28th 2009 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
You are getting desperate now
Siva Samoa said | September 28th 2009 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
desperate. tell me which four countries has been playing rugby league with each others for almost 100 years and still do ?
Steffy said | September 28th 2009 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
Poly, I don’t know, please tell me.
Is it a bad thing for nations to play the same nations repeatedly? Union seems to do alright out of it.