Would your World XV be Aussie-free?
Roar Guru By pothale, 28 Sep 2009 Pot Hale is a Roar Guru
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So as the southern hemisphere season comes to a close, and the northern hemisphere season has kicked off again. Who has put their hand up for inclusion in a current World XV?
Ireland and South Africa have taken most of the cup honours with the Grand Slam, Triple Crown, Heineken Cup, Magners League, S14, and Tri-Nations sitting in their respective cupboards.
But inevitably, certain players shine no mater what. Many people would have put Australian, Rocky Elsom, as a shoo-in for a jersey after his season’s performance with Leinster finished with a Heineken Cup medal in his pocket.
However, the rigours and foibles of his national team-mates in the Tri Nations took the sparkle off what had been a good start to the year.
Sergio Parisse was one of the top players in the 6 Nations and at club level, despite Italy coming nowhere once again including their summer tour down south.
Argentina did well against England during the summer, and their players shone at various levels in the Top 14.
The Super 14 featured South Africa and New Zealand in the business end of the competition, with the South African Bulls walking away with the final, scoring tries for fun in a truly lop-sided game. Half the Bulls side were destined to walk into the national Bok side for the Lions’ tour visit.
The four home nations got a chance to shine on their tour to South Africa. They went home defeated 2-1, but their reputations as a touring team was restored with players like Simon Shaw, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney, Jamie Heaslip, and Mike Phillips discovering new playing heights.
South Africa continued to dominate the headlines winning all of their Tri-Nations home matches, with players like Broussow, Morne Steyn, Fourie as well as Habana, Smith, du Preez making waves. They went on to win two of their away matches too, whitewashing the All Blacks in the process.
Australia and New Zealand fought it out on the last day to see who would get the unwanted wooden spoon, with very few players receiving plaudits from their media and fans for their performances.
Still, form is temporary, and class is permanent, so who would you put into your current World XV?
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September 30th 2009 @ 1:34am
ohtani's jacket said | September 30th 2009 @ 1:34am | Report comment
Ha, Elsom sure returned from Ireland better than ever. Must be the coaching and higher skill level.
September 30th 2009 @ 1:53am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 1:53am | Report comment
Or the non-stop rugby for how many months? Elsom has always had poor handling skills, it seems nobody has been able to rectify that, much like Deans hasn’t been able to rectify a lot of problems. Although, I do suppose the Leinster set up has worked for D’Arcy, O’Driscoll, Fitzgerald, S. Horgan and Kearney. Must be something in the water.
September 30th 2009 @ 2:04am
ohtani's jacket said | September 30th 2009 @ 2:04am | Report comment
Or maybe NH club rugby is no good in judging SH Test form?
September 30th 2009 @ 5:01am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 5:01am | Report comment
I don’t think it’s a reasonable topic for discussion for various reasons: former SH test players are likely to be less fit during their time in the NH because they’re not exposed to test standard fitness and SH players are having to play far more games than they’re used to. I think that some players (specifically forwards) will improve certain facets of their games, but how do you measure this as a fan? Did people expect Elsom to come back and dominate test rugby like he had the Magners League? Logically some players will flourish and develop as players in Europe – Flutey, and some won’t – Jack. Too much is made of this NH V SH debate, and it’s not helped by reactionary knee jerkism. After Jack’s ‘easy’ comments the majority of Roarers were laughing at NH rugby but after France beat NZ Henry was saying that the tough French league had helped them win. The same thing was said about England in 2003. It’s easy copy.
September 30th 2009 @ 5:49am
Jerry said | September 30th 2009 @ 5:49am | Report comment
Elsom had a 3 month break before his test return. He was injured for some of that, but regardless I don’t think he could claim burnout as a factor for his lack of form.
September 30th 2009 @ 5:53am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 5:53am | Report comment
I would argue that. He went from Magners League and HC rugby to nothing and then straight back to test rugby. It’s not an ideal situation, especially having been injured. Anyhow, I don’t see how his form was that bad. He played as he always has – strong running, but lacking guile or direction.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:03am
Jerry said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:03am | Report comment
He didn’t play a match in June, July or August – injury or not, you can’t argue that’s ‘straight back to test rugby’. By that logic, Dan Carter has been playing non-stop rugby since the 2008 Super 14.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:06am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:06am | Report comment
He did go straight back into test rugby, from nothing. That was my point – that he was put straight back into a very intense environment from a period of comparative lethargy. Regardless of when he came back he had played more rugby than any of the other 3N players. Let’s bear in mind as well that he went straight from the 3N into the European season last year.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:12am
Jerry said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:12am | Report comment
Ah – I take your point about going in cold, but I’d still dispute his having played more rugby as being relevant. He hadn’t played more rugby than anyone for 3 months which is a bigger break than most players get in their off seasons these days.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:19am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:19am | Report comment
But his knee-injury was a long-term one and he basically went without a break for a long, long time. All that adds up. I’m sticking by my guns on this one, Jerry – but not because I think his form in the 3N illustrates NH weakness, more that I think he was in a poor position from which to play, and because I don’t think he was any better or worse than usual. I’ve never been a huge fan of Elsom, anyway. Pothale will disagree with me but I think a lot of his plaudits in the HC was basically hype.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:35am
Jerry said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:35am | Report comment
I do take your point, but having seen his play I don’t think it’s lack of fitness or freshness that’s his problem – it’s lack of accuracy. As you say he’s never been a particularly subtle player and I think it was the greater pace of the game that was lead to him not being as effective as he was in 2008. Not in terms of fitness, but not having that extra half second.
September 30th 2009 @ 6:54am
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Fair enough, Jerry. Fair enough.
September 30th 2009 @ 8:52am
pothale said | September 30th 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
I did actually say that Elsom should stay in Leinster and not go back to Wallaby land – it was never going to work out. He suits that style of rugby – he doesn’t suit Wallaby rugby. The expression on his face after some of the tests spoke volumes.
September 30th 2009 @ 9:23pm
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
Agreed. Could you imagine him in a traditional home nations/Bok pack.
September 30th 2009 @ 9:36pm
mcxd said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Im glad you guys raised this point. To be honest, whilst many may shout me down for my comments, i thought Rocky had a pretty poor Tri nations. I admit he was one of the best of the worst in the pack but comparing to the way he played for Leinster he did nothing to stand out. For Leinster I was amazed at how one man could became a human wrecking ball time and time again. At times it seemed it was like one man against a whole forward pack and he came out on top.
Why was that ? was it better opposition ? yeah maybe but the one thing i thought was that like so many other wallabies it seemed that he just didnt have that same heart and drive as he did in the blue shirt. (strange as that may seem).
For those who didnt watch him play for Leinster, try and find footage of it somewhere, he was extraordinary.
September 30th 2009 @ 10:17pm
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 10:17pm | Report comment
Maybe the Leinster front five gave Elsom a platform to play off that the Wallaby front five couldn’t? Also, I would imagine that there’s more space in HC rugby than test rugby. Perhaps Leinster utilised Elsom differently than Deans chose to? He still made the same runs in the 3N that he always did (breaking first tackles and then becoming isolated and confused), and I recall McCaw mentioning how effective he was at the ruck contest, so perhaps in the 3N he did what he has always done but with the added expectancy of his European form. Elsom’s runs in the HC never led to breakthrough tries so personally I don’t think much changed.
September 30th 2009 @ 10:30pm
Knives Out said | September 30th 2009 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
Maybe the Leinster front five gave Elsom a platform to play off that the Wallaby front five couldn’t? Also, I would imagine that there’s more space in HC rugby than test rugby. Perhaps Leinster utilised Elsom differently than Deans chose to? He still made the same runs in the 3N that he always did (breaking first tackles and then becoming isolated and confused), and I recall McCaw mentioning how effective he was at the ruck contest, so perhaps in the 3N he did what he has always done but with the added expectancy of his European form. Elsom’s runs in the HC never led to breakthrough tries so personally I don’t think much changed.
My perception of Elsom is that he is a physical specimen (check out those forearms) but lacks the skill and guile of a lot of ther 6s. At Leinster he won a silly amount of MOM awards in the Magners League but I don’t think that illustrates anything of great note. Irish supremacy in the HC doesn’t necessarily mean that the ML is a truly competitive league (I don’t think it is), especially given the fact that a lot of the HC teams will rest their players during the ML season. One only has to examine the HC form of Cardiff Blues and then parallel that comparative success with their ML form to confirm this. Put simply, most big provinces/franchises in the ML are geared for European rugby. Would Elsom have managed the same output in the more grinding GP league? Perhaps not.
In the HC Elsom was very good, but I don’t at any point think that he was superior to the other 6s playing. For example, in the QF versus Harlequins Stuart Barnes listed Elsom as MOM having noted that he had been matched pound for pound by the young English capped 6 Chris Robshaw. Likewise, Barnes gave Elsom the MOM in the HC final having noted that the success of Leinster was essentially attributable to the Leinster front five. Barnes was Elsom’s biggest fan and would often wax lyrical about him in his column. That’s all well and good but then a myth starts to develop, and indeed it has. All of a sudden a player who nobody would have bracketed close to their world xv is suddenly the saviour of Australian rugby and the best flanker in the game. Even quotes are being taken out of context. Brian O’Driscoll said something along the lines that Elsom’s carrying game was freakish and that he added an edge that Leinster had been missing and thus Leinster could not have won the HC without him, and yet I’ve read quite a few Roar quotes where O’Driscoll had apparently said that Elsom was the greatest player he had ever encountered. The Elsom cult has just snowballed and I wonder where it will stop.
Excuse my rant.
P.S. Sorry Pothale. I know he’s your boy.
October 1st 2009 @ 1:09am
mcxd said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:09am | Report comment
knives, so you dont rate Elsom then ?
September 30th 2009 @ 9:12am
Sanjay Deva said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Not a world XV but here is my side based on theTri-nations for 2009. http://rugby.sanjaydeva.com/blog/2009/09/superboks-dominate-tri-nations-xv-for-2009/
September 30th 2009 @ 3:57pm
brad said | September 30th 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
No Australians
1 Beast
2 Bismark
3 Smit (C)
4 Bakkies
5 Victor
6 Heinrich
7 Mcaw
8 Spies
9 Mike Philips
10 Carter
11 Habana
12 Jamie Roberts
13 Fourie
14 Bowe
15 Kearney
October 1st 2009 @ 9:54am
Justin said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Smit! Possibly the worst TH in world rugby at the moment! He and Baxter would be a toss up…
September 30th 2009 @ 9:45pm
JamesB said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
MCXD – you cannot compare club footy to test footy, its a whole step up in intensity, pressure and speed, not to mention the quality of opposition. Three main factors counted against Elsom – a poor tight 5, lack of quality ball, and he was coming off an injury. Given the circumstances I thought he played okay, remembering he only played 3 matches (I think).
October 1st 2009 @ 1:12am
mcxd said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:12am | Report comment
James, yeah i know I was being a bit harsh in that respect. I suppose i was kind of disappointed and expected a bit more from him thats all.
September 30th 2009 @ 9:47pm
JamesB said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
Carl Hayman is the worlds best prop by a country mile, so I’m surprised no one has included him, or has everyone forgotten his name now he’s not playing for AB’s?
October 1st 2009 @ 12:29am
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 12:29am | Report comment
Oh yeah… I completely forgot. And I see him play reasonably regularly. Anyway, I still think Adam Jones has improved into the best current test tight head although I have no doubt that Hayman would challenge that perception were he to pull on the black jersey again.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:06am
Viscount Crouchback said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Adam Jones is a fair call, but the mere fact that we’re mentioning his name for best 3 in the world is a terrible indictment of contemporary propping. Has he ever beasted an opposition loosehead?
I have to go with Hayman, and then probably some Argentine or Italian, and then Julian White, and only then Adam Jones.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:51pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:51pm | Report comment
I’ve seen Adam Jones dominate quite a few opposition 1s. He taught Mtawarira a lesson, for example. He’s a generally renowned scrummager (who for Wales is perhaps working overtime to support the weak scrummaging of Gethin Jenkins), has excellent handling skills, was one of the fittest Lions (oddly enough), and rarely gets penalised. In short he’s ultra reliable – and thus the complete opposite of White, Tialata, Smit, Hayes, Vickery and Castrogiovanni. Beyond him I am a huge fan of Euan Murray and Martin Castrogiovanni, but on form they can’t be considered. I used to look at Jones and think that he was just a big unit collecting caps because Wales didn’t have any other options but I have changed my mind. He’s good stuff. Marconnet is a very, very good prop too. Oooh.. I’m getting all sweaty just thinking about those big calf muscles. Go props!
September 30th 2009 @ 9:47pm
JamesB said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
And as for wingers – Sivivatu would cut all of those mentioned to threads.
October 1st 2009 @ 12:30am
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 12:30am | Report comment
I think Sivivatu has the ability to do anything he wants to, but problematically he rarely does. In terms of test form Heymans and Habana have been better 11s this season, with Shane Williams providing just as much magic but far fewer errors.
October 1st 2009 @ 1:52am
ohtani's jacket said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:52am | Report comment
Sivivatu’s been out for too long this year to be a contender, but Habana? Yeah, his defence and chasing are an important part of the South African game, but it’s not enough to make him the best 11 in the world. It’s rewarding the Boks system over actual talent.
October 1st 2009 @ 1:59am
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:59am | Report comment
Habana has scored some good tries as well. Overall there hasn’t been a consistently excellent 11. Luke Fitzgerald had a good 6N but was used badly during the Lions tour and so didn’t shine. Shane Williams had a very mediocre (by his standards) 6N but showed glimpses of excellence during the Lions tour. Ugo Monye had a reasonably good season. Heymans had a reasonably good season. Drew Mitchell is an absolute disaster and Sivivatu has been both excellent and appalling. If we were being really pedantic then Heymans or Habana could be replaced by Kearney with Byrne at 15.
October 1st 2009 @ 2:02am
ohtani's jacket said | October 1st 2009 @ 2:02am | Report comment
Well, Kearney and Byrne are two of the best backs in the world from my observation.
October 1st 2009 @ 2:05am
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 2:05am | Report comment
I’d agree but I’m not comfortable putting players into incorrect positions. Kearney isn’t a particularly good winger, for example. I’m a bit surprised that there’s so few good wingers in Australia, NZ and SA. There’s an abundance of talent in some positions but all three nations seem to lack wing options.
October 1st 2009 @ 1:51am
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:51am | Report comment
I think Elsom is a good player, mcxd. He has a real hard physical edge and I enjoyed watching him. I certainly wouldn’t turn down the opportunity to have him in the Guinness Premiership, but my opinion is that he was handed a lot of excessive praise. Undoubtedly he did a lot of excellent work with Leinster but I think some of the UK pundits got a bit carried away by the concept of a 6’6 great blond hulking Australian called Rocky. He’s good at what he’s good at, but very, very bad at what he’s bad at, if you see what I mean? Prior to his European sojourn I wouldn’t have considered him to be world class.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:00am
Viscount Crouchback said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Elsom is just a brainless ball carrier. He plays as if he were in the playground – always following the ball. It looks great against mediocre opposition in the Heineken Cup, but it’s not remotely good enough at Test level.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:43pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
I don’t think his carrying looked that fantastic great at HC level. His carrying in that competition was exactly the same as his carrying during the 3N. Elsom will often break first tackles but little actually comes of any gains made.