By Adrian Musolino
September 29th 2009 @ 8:00am
Related coverage
Accepting some home truths about A-League crowds
Only 7,677 fans attended the Brisbane-Sydney clash at Suncorp Stadium on Sunday. The average for that fixture is almost 25,000. It’s a huge drop off, one that can be attributed to the controversy over the price of tickets, but also highlighting several important lessons about A-League crowds.
What the disappointing drop in crowd numbers highlights is the huge fluctuations that we should accept as a given with the A-League.
Obviously there are some self-inflicted reasons why the crowds are down, especially in the case of Brisbane which has damaged the reputation of the franchise.
Even if the Roar dramatically slashes ticket prices the perception is out there that the cost of attending a game is too expensive. With the lack of significant mainstream media attention such perceptions tend to stick, just as the notion of crowd violence has stuck despite so few cases in the league.
Combined with some poor scheduling, the lack of significant promotion at the start of the season and inconsistent performances from most of the teams, especially at home, these self-inflicted wounds have compounded the dip in crowds.
However, there are fundamental reasons why A-League crowds fluctuate to such an extent.
Firstly, the further intrusion into the AFL and NRL season was always going to have a negative impact on crowds, compounding the lack of media coverage the league receives.
With further expansion on the horizon there is no way to avoid this. But the FFA needs to be braver in its marketing and not rely on the expectation that crowds will return en masse when the AFL and NRL seasons are done and dusted.
Secondly, perhaps this is where football in Australia is at and the fluctuating crowds reflect the ambivalence the casual sporting fans has toward the game.
When you factor in the low opinion the ‘Euro snobs’ have of the A-League and the obvious inconsistencies in the quality of the product, then even ambivalence among football fans is to be expected.
Certainly there is still a way to go in terms of quality, as witnessed by the lacklustre triple-header of matches on Sunday.
Perhaps the novelty of the league has worn off and what remains is its core supporter base.
Thirdly and most importantly, the clubs and league itself are still in their infancy. This point tends to be overlooked yet it should be accepted as reality.
Take for example St. Kilda fans who have stuck with their club despite forty plus barren years without a premiership.
Fans have grown up with these clubs, they no nothing else aside from supporting their team through thick and then. It’s in their blood.
That sort of bond with a club is only built with decades of shared experience.
It’s that bond which results in fans rearranging their lives around the club’s fixtures no matter where they are on the ladder.
The A-League franchises, upstart creations with little to zero connection with the old NSL teams, not to mention hidden away on pay television, have been unable, in their short life spans, to build this connection with fans and that was to be expected.
That will take time, perhaps generations, to build.
It is why in the likes of Melbourne and Adelaide, where there is a stronger bond between supporters and their clubs typified by the AFL example, crowds are less susceptible to other variables.
Without this bond to teams crowds will always dramatically fluctuate depending on current form, interest, other code competition, ticket prices, scheduling etc.
There is no magic formula to drawing a big crowd to each fixture. In this sporting landscape it is a multifaceted dilemma with so many variables.
Therefore the FFA and the clubs must ensure they get the ingredients they can control right so the rest will hopefully take care of itself – perhaps longer than we all expected it to.
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Mr cheese said | September 29th 2009 @ 3:56am | Report comment
Isn’t this a sort of proof that, for all the success of the ‘Socceroos’ since 2005, the national league will never really catch on.
Look at Rugby League over here ( England ). The RFL is doing everything in its power to promote the game. The Quarter Finals of the play-offs at the weekend had attendances of 4,000 ish.
Rugby League cannot compete with football over here. Perhaps, in your country, football will never compete with Rugby League or AFL.
tifosi said | September 29th 2009 @ 5:31am | Report comment
Well the socceroos can compete but not the A-league.
There are also many fans of the sport that dont see it worth their while to watch an a-league game for whatever reason
But in qld, the ticket prices are the reason. The roar and united are selling season tixs at the same price or even dearer than the broncos or titans. Go over to the 442 forums and you will hear it.
Its crazy, im a big football fan but i would chose the Rugby league over the A-league at the same price point. Its not value for money.
I guess the real proof will be in 2 months time, we should compare the average crowds of the first two months compared to the next two months and then we will have a clearer picture
OzeToon said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:19am | Report comment
Tifosi I an with you I LOVE football but the constant ticket price increases are too much I attended a-league game one qld roar v nz knights and remember paying around $20 for that ticket – I was seriously excited about the prospect of the a-league even if the quality of the football is a little questionable. I had been a regular attendee of the roar until 2009 when to sit anywhere on the sideline Is a ridiculous $40 – as much as it pains me i’m making a stand, i will not let the club gouge me like that. Worse I have written to the club and received not even so much as a thanks for your letter. It takes time for loyal support to build why cut it off at the kneesas it grows? The orange kit will stay in the wardrobe for now.
Mr cheese said | September 29th 2009 @ 7:03am | Report comment
Tifosi,
that was my point: the ‘Socceroos’ are about to participate in the World Cup which, even anti-football must admit, is a colossus of sport.
However, I still don’t see a domestic league taking off over there. I’ve never been to Australia, but I do see you as an AFL / NRL country which will enjoy the World Cup in football and then return to egg-chasing.
For example, I watch the Rugby Union world cup and enoy it. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t dream of watching Leicester, Bath or Saracens. International Rugby Union is good for me. Then I return to football.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 8:02am | Report comment
I think one thing we can do without is another article on A-League crowds!!
Anyway, I mentioned the churn factor on another thread (and repeat it here).
In the football industry there is a great churn factor. 10 to 15% of your membership drops off every year, without fail – it just does.
Now if you’re a club with 500,000 supporters across the land, you going to cover the numbers that drop off quite easily.
But if you’re a newish club in a newish comp – where do you go to cover that 10-15% churn factor?
Do you see what I mean? There’s no settled fan base to turn to, it’s far too early – clubs will have to exist for decades before they have the settled, broad fan base to cover off the basic 10-15% churn factor.
Also, that 10-15% churn factor exists always, regardless (you’ll note that even teams experiencing success will get that).
So when you have other factors in play, such as the economy or poor on-field performance or poor adminstration – you can effectively double that churn factor in any given year.
Let us bear in mind that a football membership is a luxury item. On top of that, as far as consumer spending goes, it’s a fairly irrational decision.
Given that, it’s very, very hard for new clubs in a new comp to get lots of people to part with their money at the same time.
What compels someone to pour their hard earned into a football club?
There’s rarely any logic to the decision – it’s about emotion, sentiment, attachment, etc.
But you won’t find masses of people feeling that way about a new club. This is why it’s very difficult and prone to many ups and downs (far more than is to be found in a settled, older competition).
The NRL is an interesting case study – traditionally it has not had big attendances – but they are probably double today than what they were 15 years ago.
One big advanatge the NRL has is masses of people who already identify themselves with a club – it’s far, far easier to get these sorts of people to a game than it is to encourage people generally to come to a game.
In the NRL case, we know there are masses of people interested, becuase it’s clearly visible form TV ratings (both FTA and Pay).
The Link said | September 29th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Pip NRL crowds are only really now returning to what they were in 1994, after which the game basically canabalised itself for a sustained period. For ave crowds in the 80’s in the NSWRL you may have more of a point
da640 said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
I disagree, i think the more discuss that is made about crowds in the a-league the better. Through more discussion new ideas are regularly brought up on the roar. I do agree that the topic “roar ticket prices” is getting slightly annoying though.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
da
Don’t disagree – it’s just that over half of the artilces on the Roar in relation to the A-League have been about crowds, and it’s starting to wear a bit thin.
Link
I was sort of talking off the cuff – didn’t have any numbers in front of me – but the essential point is that regardless of where the crowds may have been in the past, there were large numbers of people who already identified with an NRL club – it’s much easier to get people like that watching your club than to go and look for new people.
The general marketing principle is that it’s far easier (and cheaper) to hold onto existing customers than to create new ones.
chook said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Adrian,
I think that the point you made is spot on about crowd connection with the clubs
It a brand new league, new clubs, new administration. I think that the A-League need to maintain its presents in the mainstream media. TV, Radio. paper. The dumping of the NSL and the new present A- League is an excellent system, but it will also take time. Its very hard to support a team that you never know weather it will fold or not, the crowd numbers have been reasonable for most teams the non capital cities and Wellington should be looking for an average of 8,000. Capital cities should be shooting for 15000. We are well below this figure but give it time.
The optimum time is the everning games as they get the better numbers . the 7.30pm time slot average 11664 this year.
atm the current crowd av.
AU – 12532
BR – 9729
CCM 8185
GCU – 6643
MV 17575
NJ 5955
PG 7323
SFC – 13425
WP – 8507
megatron said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Fair points. I can’t see a dramatic change now. Percpetions stick as you say.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Unfortunately GCU and the Roar have done themselves serious long term damage with their ticket prices. The people who make the decisions in any normal business would have been fired by now. They should be fired. The Roar was worse because of the fact that their prices were increases, not first time posts. To recover anything like their starting point, they would need to slash prices by at least 30-50% and back it up with an advertising campaign. Indeed, the only thing that may salvage the A League in Brisbane is a new franchise. I really believe that the situation is that serious. What a shame – in the first 2 seasons the team was not performing but still drew an average close to 15,000 – which shows how seriously the inept Roar administrations have alienated their supporter base. Hopefullly GCU and Brisbane have realised their error and are looking at lower ticket prices next season, but that will be too late. Both clubs need to act now with initiatives like 2 for 1 deals, that kind of thing. Low crowds quickly become a self fulfilling prophecy and the Roar and GCU need to get bums on seats so that there is atmosphere not just for the live fans, but for the television audience too.
Rellum said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
It might help if we stop calling people snobs if we want them to come along and watch a game.
whiskeymac said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Adrain good points. Mr Cheese I can’t agree with the idea that the national league will “never” catch on. It has already IMO caught on but on a modest scale. which is fine so long as people dont have unrealistic expectations that a 5 year old comp will sweep all before it ina continent of 20 odd million with established teams and seasons. given time it will grow and the clubs will forge an identity past the FFA formula of family friendly sanitisation and corporatisation.
With boost of the WC and the Asain Cup and a few months without AFL,NRL competition it’s a bit early to predict the death of the HAL.
Mr cheese said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:38am | Report comment
whiskeymac,
you know Australia ( presumably ) and I’ve never even been there, so I will defer to you on this…
But I am not totally convinced. A country’s sporting culture tends to be pretty deeply entrenched. In England, we have football, cricket and rugby union with rugby league trailing somewhere behind. This is our culture, and presumably yours is just as strong.
I am glad the Socceroos have qualified again but surely most NRL fans will just go back to rugby league after South Africa 2010.
And am I not right in thinking that televised football from here damages football over there ? Who will pay to see A League when you’ve just seen Real Madrid v Barcelona or Liverpool v Manchester United on the TV ??????
cab711 said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
Perhaps you could look to other countries for examples on how soccer has grown beyond a minor sport interms of participation and interest to become the national sport. Countries in asia are a good example like Japan and Sth Korea and have very strong soccer codes domestically Also MLS in America to a lesser extent is seeing decent interest. Its hard to judge if soccer will be No.1 in Australia. Alot of factors have to be right, hosting the WC would be the winning formula for the HAL in my view.
Rusty0256 said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
BR have definitely made a rod for their back; if they now run around offering significantly discounted ticketing to increase the crowds, those who have coughed up the full quid for theirs are not going to be happy. Whatever they do, they cannot appear to be desperate, even though they no doubt are.
I like Realfootball’s idea of 2 for 1 (perhaps a 2 for 1 ‘remainder of season’ membership deal) but an incentive should also be there to those who aleady have bought full-price tickets / memberships; that is, encouraging members to bring a friend or friends at say 30% discount. Hey, they don’t even have to use the ‘D-Word’, maybe call it a Membership ‘consideration’ or ‘incentive’. At the end of the day, they need to resucitate the club before it financially falls over and with the currentlack of numbers, it may well.
Apart from the financial backing side of things, all of the above can also apply to Gold Coast.
nath said | September 29th 2009 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
The roar have offered the ’summer six pack’. Which is 6 games for $120 (approx).
I’m a massive roar fan and i go week in week out.
In the first four seasons there was a core group of 10 guys who used to go to every game.
One Sydney game the was 24 of us! Now we are lucky to have three in the group.
Their main arguments are that they are not paying $32 a ticket plus Suncorp Stadiums neo nazi way of policing the supporters is another massive factor. We have been escorted out by riot police on more than one occasion for singing and cheering in the bar after the game!
Even with the ’summer six pack offer’ i think the roar have stuffed it up this season!
Next year no matter what they offer i have this awful feeling that the roar have done their dash and alienated alot of their fans!
Kurt said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Could it be that all those articles, comments, speeches etc. telling AFL and NRL fans that they support rubbish sports and need to see the light are maybe, just maybe coming home to roost? Now before you say it I know that soccer cops its fair whack from supporters of those sports too but remember one thing – AFL and League are the market leaders, soccer is the challenger. This means that in order to maintain their positions as dominant players in their respective markets, these sports really only need to hang on to their existing supporter bases with a bit of organic growth for good measure (Collingwood & Parramatta supporters in particular are good at this with their ignorance of family planning methods). The A-league however needs to capture new fans in order to grow significantly and the Craig Foster approach of crowing about impending dominance when the competition is struggling to attract five-figure crowds may not be the best approach.
Try a big dose of humility, accept that you have no automatic entitlement to dominate the Australian sporting landscape and maybe you can recapture some lost ground.
AndyRoo said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
(Collingwood & Parramatta supporters in particular are good at this with their ignorance of family planning methods)
I support the Eels and well this remark hit to close to the bone
But sort of agree with the rest, I think the attitude that “it’s popular overseas” is used to much and doesn’t mean squat in to how we are going to grow the A league. But I also think the ravings of forum goer’s probably don’t resonate or upset most people.
I for instance wouldn’t stop watching the AFL becaue of some remarks from Caroline Wilson.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Kurt
Agree that some very stupid assertions were made – mainly I think by Sydney people who see NRL as the opposition. Having grown up in an AFL town, I know how unassailable the code is in Southern Aus. Over a century of social tradition. My perspective is that the codes can co-exist just fine, and the Victory have shown that.
But I really don’t think that falling crowds have anything to do with Craig Foster suggesting that pigs will one day be F18s.
cab711 said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:26pm | Report comment
Yes, the AFL promotional TV add of bowling over every other sport is leading by example in the subject of humility?
Kurt said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
No not really. Re-read what I said about market leaders and challengers.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
(Collingwood & Parramatta supporters in particular are good at this with their ignorance of family planning methods).
heh, heh – that was quite funny.
You remind me that a couple of Collingwood greats were shown on grand final day, at least one of them, it may have been Mannassa, gave a typical Colllingwood toothless grin.
Where’s Damien Monkhurst when you need him most.
Brendan said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
The generational aspect to the membership/crowd numbers is a interesting topic.
Their was a lot of press about the J-league when the A-league kicked off but we all seem to have forgotten the lessons that league taught us. Their as here after 4 years a dramatic downturn in crowd numbers occurred. As the novelty of the new league wore off numbers dropped and the clubs were left with their core support (just as we see happening here)
The easy times are over now and the clubs and FFA need to work their butts off to win the new supporters. All clubs are/should be targeting the 7 – 16 age group to egage those fans that will be cecome their long term members. I am talking free tickets to primary school aged kids and very low Junior memberships. Lots and lots of school clinics.
But the biggest thing that can be done to secure the long term future is in the hands of the FFA. The A-league will only be secure for the long term with a solid FTA network deal. When your matches are only available on 25% of TV sets across Australia you are in a no win situation. All Clubs need to get more media savvy if they are going to grow, forget the newspapers, kids don’t read newspapers, its TV that rules and the internet. Get that right and we will see steady growth
True Tah said | September 29th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Japan is not a good analogy.
Population of over 100m, in a relatively small geographic area. Only sport with any other presence is baseball. It is an economic superpower.
megatron said | September 29th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
The key point there is that Football has a lot less competition in Japan and there is no overwhelmingly popular home grown football code, unlike here.
whiskeymac said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Mr Cheese fair points, and having lived in both countries i think i know where you are coming from. However when you compare football here (played nationally) to Rugby League in the UK in your initial post i dont think, to be fair, that it’s a great example. My impression was that League in the UK is regional. it seemes to be popular only in a band of counties in the North West and Pennines. Outside of this it never really caught on, especiallyin the populous and wealthy South East (i left the UK in 95 and it might have changed but the London Broncos at the time struggled in a city of many millions). Is this right still or am i way off? when you posted that it’s “trailing someway behind” i think i might still be right.
As an aside the fourth team sport in the UK is still in a better position than the fourth one here… the UK has a much bigger (and concentrated) population than Oz. The importance of this being that even the merseyside, lancs, yorkshire populations (and their relative history and wealth) can sustain a healthy rugby league competiton. Over here questions are always being asked if there are enough supporters and dollars to maintain lots of teams in lots of sports or other entertainment distractions for tadays yoof (playstation, cinema, online porn).
But in saying that Football here is played all over at least, i dont see it as a regional game in that respect, nor one followed predominately by any particualr socio econimc grouping. of course this is only my own opinion. Further there is a culture of football here, it was badly organised but at a grass roots level does remarkably well still. in and around western sydney for example (the burbs) there are thousands of kids and adults playing in their respective comps every weekend. there are several relatively old (ethnic based) teams that point to a football culture. the challenge for a new 5 year old comp is to harness areas like this. So even though a Melbourne Vicory and Brisbane Roar (yes awful corporate names) are very young the game itself isnt here.
As for TV. well… televised euro games tend to be on between 10pm to 6am… the HAL at least is televised at a more civilised time… and altho some will only watch Euro games there are plenty who watch, or follow, both. Am curious but do you think the MLS in the States is also destined to fail? i think there are some strong similarities here between the comps. in any event the majority of football games for europe and HAl are on the same channel (Fox, wwhich is our Sky equivalent)
Republican said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Mr Cheese.
An anomaly exists here with Soccer and that is it boasts the highest grassroots participation of all the footy codes and yet at the 2nd tier, that is the national domestic elite comp it can at times struggle. As with Union, Ozzie punters turn out in healthy numbers to support the National Team, many of whom are their purlely for the jingo factor rather than being devotees of the respective codes. Union and Soccer share some parallels in this respect albeit soccer is overall, much healthier than Union is in Australia.
I agree with you about the historic code cultures of a country which are slow to change. Certainly Aust Footy and League are the dominant footy codes here in that respect with Soccer making good ground over rercent decades however, Union is at the bottom of the Aust footy pecking order and destined to remain thus, despite all efforts to remedy it’s status which is very much about that historic culture you refer to.
Cheers
zach said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:58am | Report comment
The same thing happened with basketball – remember when Michael Jordan was the most popular sportsman with Australian kids. After the novelty wore off no-one could be bothered with it. Everybody said the same thing wouldn’t happen with soccer but the parallels are obvious: at the beginning the crowds looked promising, mum’s loved it, TV coverage etc., but it couldn’t escape the fact that it was not a first rate competition and that the best players were whisked off overseas until they were past it. 150 years ago we made a decision to have a game of our own, and we are used to seeing the best. Football loyalty is tribal and local and people here are not going to give up the best game in the world to be a feeder comp for mother England’s league.
People will get behind the socceroos like they did in the America’s Cup, but winning that cup didn’t result in a boost for sailing. On the contrary we lost all interest after that. Soccer has been riding the crest of spin, but the recent signs are that when reality hits it will struggle.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
The basketball analogy is worrying but doesn’t stand up to close examination. There are several strengths football has in its favour that basketball didn’t. 1. More than 40% of Australians are migrants or first geners who come from countries where football is the game (nothing like that for basketball) 2. football has a massive participant base 3. Football is the global game and it is harder every year to sustain insular parochialism in this country in a climate of ever increasing global integration. Basketball was an American game with insignificant particpant base and no cultural tradition with anyone.
zach said | September 29th 2009 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
Basketball has a huge participation rate but it doesn’t translate into support for the NBL
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Not compared to football/soccer, Zach, which has now outstripped cricket as Australia’s number 1 participant sport.
Alex said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
Yes, 40% of Australians are migrants with many coming from nations where football is played but hasn’t that vitually been the case since the game was popularised in the UK? So the argument that the game will grow purely on the basis of migration doesn’t stand up to testing either. IT is brought further into question when you consider the number of migrants from China and India where football is relatively tiny. You mention that football has overtaken cricket. I thought this had happened decades ago but in any case I think it is wrong to discount basketballl participation rates. In Sydney (where I am from) you would be hard pressed to show me a school with more cricketers than basketball players sadly. Besides participation rates dont translate into crowds or broadcasting agreements. Look at rugby union. If you looked at participation rates nobody ought to turn up to Super 14 or international matches. There are fewer players than can fit inside the main stadium. Football needs to get over these rather poor arguments as to why it will grow. Global game means nothing here. In fact, you only have to travel a bit to see how paper thin that belief is. Dont get me wrong it is certainly the biggest sport. I think basketball does indicate a possible and unfortunate future for the A-League. Its not that long ago that every kid I knew was collecting the cards, playing and wanting to have a birthday party at a Kings game.
Jay said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
I think one of the single biggest reasons is the so called “Euro snobs.” Football in this country is followed by hundreds of thousands of people but it suffers from the narrow minded people who will only supported Melbourne Knights, south Melbourne, Marconi, Sydney United etc etc. They will not entertain the idea of actually going along to an a-league game and watch a standard that is much higher than the NSL. Imagine the crowds both Melbourne Victory and Sydney FC could have if the supporters of each of these “ethnic” clubs threw their support behind the a-league clubs.
Dom said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Yeah i agree, it must be said that these supporters need not abandon their traditional clubs but also go to both a-league and state league games because these clubs will never be readmitted to the national league.
Keir Anderson said | September 29th 2009 @ 9:55pm | Report comment
I’d classify myself as a Euro snob, but more from the perspective that the standard of the A-League is rather rubbish why would I want to watch guys who would struggle in the Championship when we have Premier League, La Liga and Budesliga?
Midfielder said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
Then you you will never watch a game in Australia … we will never get close to it … BTW it also means that about 198 countries you will not watch as they are also not at the required standard…
Dom said | September 30th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Keir,
mabye if you go along and support the league and football in australia in general, the standard will improve. Just like it has for the last five seasons. Also mabye because you cant go the the la liga, EPL, or budesliga live how about going to an a league game and then you cant watch those games when ever u want on TV. I would personally much rather be at a live game than tv.
whiskeymac said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
zach – as you know michael jordan is american, whereas cahill and kewell etc “are one of us” – am hoping that this simple distinction will prevent the NBL being a suitable predciton to the HALs future here but there’s the distinction of major (and not flash inthe pan jordan stye) grass root involvement, major internationals played regularly (and competitons), rivalries etc which can distinguish it further. The NBL was a soberig reminder not to ake anything for granted but i dont think football is in the same stuation. If it fails, and i dont think it will, it wont be because its an amercian inspired off shoot.
zach said | September 29th 2009 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
They have lived in the UK most of their lives. Kewell’s kids are English – he is never coming back. For an Australian to reach the top in soccer he will always have to emigrate.
Robbos said | September 29th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
In anything with an int’l flavour this will be the case, not just football, look at golf, tennis (from a sporting view), business (see Murdoch), the arts, music, entertainment, actors. Those at the top have to move OS. It’s just that you follow a sport that has no int’l flavour that it doesn’t happen in your sport.
zach said | September 30th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
But that is a plus for our game (and also for Rugby League to a lesser extent) which soccer and basketball don’t have. As long as the AFL and NRL are elite competitions and the ALeague is not, soccer will not be able to compete here. Unless you think the ALeague will one day overtake the EPL, that will always be the case, and support for the ALeague will fizzle out, regardless of the number of juniors playing the game. The problem is that soccer started to believe its own publicity.
DiCanio said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
All this comes down to quality on the pitch
Forced my Dad to watch some Aleague games on the weekend and he remarked ‘it has improved’
As long as there is improvement in the quality of the competition each year then things will build.
Look to the EPL, though the players are not neccessarily as technically gifted, the speed at which it is played highlights the drama and excitment given to viewers. More opportunites, more movement, more things to get excited about
and aleague game, over 90 minutes, needs more things to get excited about.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
That plays a part, sure, but in the case of GCU and Brisbane Roar, being a local I can assure you that the determining factor is ticket prices.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
By the way everyone – should we have heard about the 12th team by now?
Robbos said | September 29th 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Talk it may not happen. The News ltd papers says that the FFA has decided against the 12th team. But nothing official.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Robbos
I just saw the news story on Fox Sports, backing up the 442 article and the earlier Terror article.
I don’t think it’s a big deal waiting till 2011 – the main problem is that they were probably a bit too quick off the mark to grand Hearts the 11th license – in hindsight, it might have been better to wait for two viable bids – that’s what happened the year before with GCU and FNQ.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Here’s the latest on the 12th team – I think the news has just come through:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/113724,ffa-name-western-sydney-club-for-2011.aspx
oikee said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Talk about inviting crowd trouble? Western Sydney would be the last place i would expand. Anyhow, its your code, who am i to intrude.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Oikee
sorry mate – but that comment makes no sense at all.
Art Sapphire said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Oh Oikee – you are such a cheeky chap. You must have got bored bickering with the Union chappies.
md said | September 29th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
12th team just announced – it is West Sydney – Ian Rowden’s group, which was clearly the least dodgy option!
I think the crowd issues are local:
Qld and GCU – ticket prices, plus probably a fatigue factor at the Roar -> nothing ever changes there and there’s a real sense that you’ve seen this episode before, every time they walk onto the pitch.
Sydney FC – NQF match showed that Sydney really wants a marquee. W Syd will probably add to SFC crowds paradoxically, because Sydney is a rather tribal place.
MV – tracking OK, but Heart might splinter their crowds.
AU – tracking OK, but probably suffering from FFA ownership
PG – look to be getting better now they are finally on track
WP, NUJ, CCM, NQF – these are small population centres and provided the clubs stay viable, good crowds are a bonus really.
Cheers
md
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
md
spot on on the Roar and the feeling of same old same old – I was losing interest for that reason even before GCU opened shop closer to home. They’ve just never progressed. In fact, under Farina they are going backwards. His best young players were signed by Bleiberg. What kind of coach signs the lumbering human slomo Bob Malcom?
but ticket prices are what has killed the club – even if the team was sparkling the crowds would not come
the Roar are a ripoff orchestrated by people who should hang their heads in shame
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
md
I thought SFC already had their million dollar marquee!!
Jim Bom said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Maybe some of the more historically enlightened posters here can help, but picking up on comment in one of the previous posts concerning the history of the codes in AUS, I have a question.
Association football has been historically the most popular football in the UK. I believe clubs were formed 120+ years ago. In that same period, AUS has had a constant stream of migrants from the UK. I might even hazard a guess that the majority were working class families looking for a better life. I would then also conclude that these migrants were, to some extent (large I think), fans of Association Football.
Why then did that (presupposed) support not translate into the formation and development of the game in AUS over the past, say 120+ years? We all know of the migrants from the continent post WW II bringing their love for the round ball game to AUS, but why was A.F. not already well entrenched?
Any ideas?
True Tah said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Jim Bom
you are correct in that some of the migrants pre-1900 were futbol fans, and this explains why you have clubs in the Newcastle/Hunter Region which date back to this period.
However, assuming that manyl UK immigrants were futbol followers, whereas the reality was you had a lot of British immigrants to Australia,NZ, South Africa from areas where rugby was strong, Cornwall, the Scottish Borders, the West Country, although in those days I understand rugby had a much higher profile before 1895 than it does today.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Jim
fantastic question.
This is my take on it from a Victorian perspective (although, the same would largely apply in Sth Aust, West Aust and Tassie).
The first thing to point out is that Australian Football was actually developed by Brits, or at least children of Brits who had been educated in the mother country.
But this was in 1858-59, before any football code had been well established in Britain, so that is the first part of the answer for you: Australian Football was well established in Melbourne (and soon after, in Adelaide), well before anything else was established anywhere else in the world.
By the mid 1860s, games of Australian Football were already drawing crowds of 10,000 – pretty much unprecedented for that time period.
So, as more and more Brits start coming to Melbourne for the remainder of that century, what do they find? A game that is already very well entrenched, very well organised, and the main game in town (and most probably, for the time period, as well organised as anything they may have left behind).
My own club, Footscray (the Bulldogs), established in 1883, had strong working class British origins (it’s a working class area).
If you were part of the establishment, you’d join the MCC – but what football club do they support during the Winter, the Melbourne Football Cub, established 1859.
And even in the modern era, to this day, of all the millions of people born overseas, Australian Football attracts the largest percentage of them in terms of attendances.
It’s a surprising, little known fact, but when you sit and think it through, it makes a bit of sense. Just as you learn the local language, and you learn to eat the local food, you are going to be drawn to the local sport if it’s in your face all the time (the second most asked question in the Southern states is: who do you barrack for?)
If you look at the American experience, it’s almost identical.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:37pm | Report comment
Pip
you haven’t mentioned the fact that in this period a huge percentage of the immigrants in the early to late C19 were Irish and brought Gaelic football with them (just look at the nationalities of the Eureka ringleaders) and that most of them of course went to the gold fields in Victoria
huge Irish presence in Tassie too because of the convicts
given that rugby was here too with the English, its not hard to see how the oval and round ball codes merged into Aussie Rules
Jim Bom said | September 29th 2009 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
Fair points. Many thanks. For sure you are correct in the nascent years of Austn Rules, Assn Football didn’t yet exist. I mentioned the UK, because I have no idea of the establishment of A.F. in Scotland, Wales or Ireland (part of the UK in the 19th century), meaning I don’t know if they were concurrent with the establishment of clubs in England, or followed.
But the migration continued unabated (populate or perish) into the 20th century but probably slowed or stopped post 1918 for a while, given there were no young men left, let alone families, to emigrate. And so it went on.
Anyway, historically assn football didn’t take off on a large scale anywhere or at any time until the continental immigrants arrived, and who I guess in hindsight, shunned the oval ball and established the round ball. In Sydney, Marconi, Sydney Olympic etc etc.
I guess a modern example is Austn expatriates establishing Ausn Rules clubs all over the world. You may know of the annual gala between teams from Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philipines, Singapore and Vietnam. And my mate in Texas runs out for the Dallas Magpies. They eschew the local football codes and stick with their own. Of course they are expatriates, not migrants, so don’t have the numbers to have any impact on the local sporting scene.
As for the American experience, well that one has me stumped. A British colony that changed cricket into baseball and rugby into gridiron. Go figure!
Westcoast929406 said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
Just another modern angle on this topic.
In the past 4/5 years Western Australia has seen a flood of immigrants from the UK, South Africa, NZ, Interstate and all places in.between.
This flood is increasing with 200 billion worth of projects in WA to occur in the next ten/20 or so years.
A lot of them have children – So the kids go to school -What happens then what football sport do they play. What are the sport influences on them – Parents and peers and the media.
Well Soccer football gets a lot – Rugby gets some- and the rest play our game – Why
Huge efforts from the WAFL in schools have resulted in approx so far 900 Aussie Rules football teacher/ ambassadors (one for each school) who can influence what football code will be played. One in Twelve people in the population are involved in our game.
Junior Soccer football and AR Juniors are about equal – About the only state where this occurs.
WAFL attendances are back to to pre AFL Eagles and Dockers in 1995. After a huge drop off from 1995 to 2007.
Another point is -listen to footy talkback and the accents of the listeners – They reflect the immigration origins above.
As was said previosly we do not get them all on board to our sport but we get our more than our fair share.
It is not a given the immigrants kids will play their home country football sport. By the way the sport itself is not too shabby to play and watch.
bever fever said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
WC, i agree the amount of UK and Saffa people involved in footy through their kids or hearing them on talkback radio or even hearing them at WAFL games is very promising and bodes well for the future.
Up in the far northern suburbs some areas can be up to 50 to 60% UK and Saffa dominated so aussie rules needs to keep up the hard work and being involved at the junior level i must say there is some really dedictaed young guys who really have a passion and drive for the game.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Jim
I should add – I’m not saying the other codes didn’t exist during this period (1880 to 1918), they did, but I am saying that by about 1870, Australian Football was well established, well organised and extremely popular.
For example, I’ve already mentioned Footscray a working class club with much British influence.
In the early part of the 1900s, one of the most successful soccer clubs in Victoria was a team called Footscray Imperial – won a stack of Vic titles and clearly its name too harks back to a British connection.
By the start of the post-war immigration boom, this club had pretty much disappeared off the scene – much later, another club called Footscray JUST had emerged that was predominantly Serbian.
I suspect that same pattern is repeated all over Australia.
The game and clubs have always existed to varying degrees, but in no part of Australia has soccer ever managed to become the dominant code.
In relation to your confusion about America. It’s clearly no coincidence that countries like the US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and to a lesser extent, South Africa, didn’t take completely to Association Football.
The reason? I don’t know – greater prosperity, greater independence, just timing – I’m not sure – but there must be something that explains why the Anglo countries – those closest to the mother country in terms of language and culture, were precisely the ones that shunned the game that England would give to the rest of the world.
It’s quite amazing when you think of it that way.
whiskeymac said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
delayed till 2011? let’s hope that gives them time to get it right… it appears the management group includes some ex football players and people with decent marketing, legal and sports backgrounds. hopefully they do the area well. looking forward to seeing how this one unfolds.
Tifosi said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
Charlie Yankos is involved. Dead Set Legend of the game
Who could ever forget this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EaqVfIlE9U&feature=PlayList&p=C3EE6369123669AD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5
AndyRoo said | September 30th 2009 @ 7:32am | Report comment
That goal is why I support the socceroos.
Midfielder said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Good to see a decision has been made and that a Canberra team will get in as well..
Tifosi said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Rubbish, that was an attempt to make the people in Canberra think it will happen. It wont. the FFA were never interested in Canberra and used us.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Well – it might end up happening – but it’s true that the FFA were never interested in Canberra in this round.
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
Canberra didn’t have the money in the end either.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
realf
dunno – the Territory Govt was willing to put in a shitload of money.
Realfootball said | September 30th 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Pip
2.5 million, to be precise. The consortium still didn’t have the required cash, according to media reports.
Art Sapphire said | September 29th 2009 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Here is a number 6969 – No, its not 2 couples in bed doing something naughty.
It was the average attendance to NRL games in 1983.Last time, I noticed the NRL is still around.
So, never fear. Considering the incompetence of the FFA and participating clubs for trying to stop people from going to the games, we are still going to average above 10k by seasons end.
Billo said | September 29th 2009 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
That’s a good point, Art, but the difference is that the rugby league competition in those days was a purely Sydney suburban one, and the players were part-time and paid peanuts, whereas the A-League clubs have to finance trips all over the country, and they have to pay full-time wages.
It’s a much tougher business model than rugby league from 26 years ago.
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Only problem…
1983..it was the NSWRL..only Sydney clubs, not a national competition with every game on tv (yeh pay tv for aleague)
Big difference
Republican said | September 29th 2009 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
Pippinu.
My ancestors were predominately Irish and not Brittish and made up 50% of the population of Melbourne. They played a large part in shaping the game as we know it along with the Brits no doubt.
Cheers
Realfootball said | September 29th 2009 @ 6:07pm | Report comment
Personally I much prefer Gaelic football to Aussie Rules. Shame they didn’t stick with it. Maybe they could only buy oval balls. Or couldn’t make ones that stayed round. Maybe making eggs is easier.
waterboy said | September 29th 2009 @ 7:17pm | Report comment
Do these bozos at the FFA have any idea?
Two new clubs, after just admitting two other new clubs!
The governing body are already running three of the established clubs aren’t they because the owners have handed back the licences and no other owner can be found?
The crowd figures mean a vast majority of the clubs would be losing money each game, correct?
All of this during the biggest economic downturn since WWII, which despite what we are being told is far from over.
Can any of you soccer fans see the forest for the trees?
The FFA either have unlimited funds, have a white knight riding to the rescue or this house of cards that they have just stacked two more stories on, will coming crashing down some time in the future.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
I think that’s a harsh call.
Before the start of this season, with GCU and FNQ all locked in, for the FFA, 2nd teams in Melbourne and Sydney would have looked like the obvious path, and it all would have looked pretty straightforward aiming for the next season.
Also – there were bids coming out of their ears – everything looked pretty rosey.
Hearts would have been given the nod on the presumption that getting a 2nd team in Sydney was in the bag.
So the real problem here is that Hearts was given the nod prematurely, and now that the 2nd Sydney team hit a snag, for whatever reason, it’s the earlier decision to let in Hearts that looks a bit off – they could easily have come in the following season together without a problem.
The biggest problem with 11 teams is not just the bye – it’s having an extra mouth to feed without too much of a rise in revenues, because there are still only five games on per round.
Billo said | September 29th 2009 @ 8:03pm | Report comment
“That sort of bond with a club is only built with decades of shared experience.
“It’s that bond which results in fans rearranging their lives around the club’s fixtures no matter where they are on the ladder.
“The A-League franchises, upstart creations with little to zero connection with the old NSL teams, not to mention hidden away on pay television, have been unable, in their short life spans, to build this connection with fans and that was to be expected.”
That is the crucial point, Adrian.
In England the sport is truly tribal, and supporters will follow their clubs through thick and thin. Results, ticket prices, the weather, player misbehaviour away from the pitch, the level of skill, whether the games are exciting or tedious – none of it seems to matter when you have developed that tribal loyalty. People turn up to games because it is part of their culture to do so.
In Australia we see that in the AFL and, to a growing extent, in the NRL.
But it’s very hard for other sports to develop the same degree of intense support.
The only other key factor that determines attendance at sports events is fashion.
Formula One has this, for example, as do matches involving the Wallabies and Socceroos. In this case people will turn up because they want to experience the “event”, rather than the sport itself.
The HAL had that for the first couple of years – it was something new, and it was well sold. Top line soccer was a new kid on the block that attracted the young and the trendy.
That feeling has now faded, particularly in NSW and Queensland, and it now looks like a long slog by the A-League in those states to try to win over spectators from rugby league, which, to judge by most posters on The Roar, is still the most under-estimated sport in Australia.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
The FFA also has the World Cup – and that’s definitely something that can be used to redirect interest to the local product.
That’s the good news.
The bad news is that it’s very tough making it every four years, I’m sure we’ll make it most times – but don’t be surprised if we fail about once in every three attempts – also, no one can guarantee what the progress of other countries in our confederation will be.
Realfootball said | September 30th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
If the current crop of youngsters and their international performances are any guide, there is a very real chance we will fail to qualify for 2014.
The last Olyroos were dreadful, and if you saw the Young Socceroos game against the Czechs, you filled with premonitions of doom.
megatron said | September 29th 2009 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
I hope W Sydney works for the sake of the game so I think this delay is the right move. Get their house in order and don’t rush it.
agga78 said | September 29th 2009 @ 10:29pm | Report comment
People in Australia who say they love football but don’t like the A league because of the so called poorer standard are Euro snobs or they hate the A League because their old inclusive NSL club has been left out of the A league. Get over it, you people don’t love football at all, if you truly loved football and it was your game you would try everything you can within your means to support the sport here. I love the game, I buy tickets for other people to come to games, even memberships for people to attend games all the for the love of the game. Not because the standard is EPL standard but because Football is the best game, with the best supporters but these Euro snobs and especially the old NSL team supporters don’t support the game, they support clubs or nations and it saddens me to see the football community still can’t fully come together to make this great game the number 1 in Australia. People who do attend games to the A league need to do as I do and encourage or even purchase tickets for people to attend games it’s one of the ways to increase the numbers at games until the league is fully established.
Robbos said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
While I agree with your sentiments & these are exact reasons why I also follow the A-League, season holder since season 1,have taken hundreds to their first games. But I don’t agree that all the ‘Euro snobs’ or ex NSL fans should also support the A-league, they are allowed to have their choice. The EPL is of a higher standard & they choose not to follow the A-League, they followed a NSL club for years & suddenly the A-League took this away from them.
To me they are still football fans, that is why I say football in this country is more than the A-League, much more.
I know Pip himself says he is now a bigger socceroos fan than he is of the Italian team & I know many like him, as time goes on & the Socceroos play more competitive matches the passion will also grow & you will find they will support their ‘home’ nations less & less.
This too will happen in the A-League, a 14 year old in ten years time will have had the A-League in his life for 14 years more than 1/2 his lifetime, whereas a 24 year old, the A-league is a novelty, not something he grew up with. Again like the Socceroos over time people’s attitude to the A-League will change, it will never be the EPL. But you will be able to support your team in your own country in the greatest sport of all & be able to watch the best in the world on TV in Europe or the WC.. Nothing just nothing & I’ve been to many sporting ‘events’ can compare to the WC06 & people talk about tribalism, it was strong for the green & gold, like nothing I have ever experience. This is something the other codes apart from Rugby will never experience.
Mr cheese said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:14pm | Report comment
Isn’t part of the problem that Australia doesn’t have a culture to go with the sport ? It seems from afar that Aussies in football are trying to create a Euro / UK type atmosphere with flags and songs etc.
I think I’m right in saying that that stuff is less common at NRL or AFL. Doesn’t this show that Aus football is caught somewhere between two cultures ?
If people really are trying to recreate European football, it’s no wonder that people are disiillusioned: the A League will never be anything close to AC Milan v Inter at the San Siro. That’s not an insult to Australian football. It’s just a fact.
In English rugby league, they tried to do something called “County of Origin” which was obviously a State of Origin rip-off. It wasn’t a success. If you seek to copy something, it will probably fail in the end.
Pippinu said | September 29th 2009 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
Mr cheese
It’s a fair observation, that Australian soccer crowds, or youngish segments of them, try and replicate the overseas viewing experience.
I have mixed feelings about it – some of it’s not too bad – but there is a part of me that views it as a bit of me-tooism – especially the whole ultra bull shit that you occasionally come across.
If some of these kids were dropped off in some of the back blocks around the world where ultras really do rule – they’d absolutely shit their pants.
Mr cheese said | September 30th 2009 @ 1:54am | Report comment
Of course they would but then the proper Ultra experience is really an Italian phenomenon and Italy is in a different world anyway.
If Australian sporting culture is generally more sedate, perhaps football fans in Aus should try to follow that. Maybe people are put off because they can see that it’s an obvious and weird attempt to import something alien.
Over here, sports fan occasionally get upset when they see those big foam hands. Where did the big foam hands come from ?
NO FOAM HANDS AT ENGLISH SPORT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Daryl said | September 30th 2009 @ 3:29am | Report comment
I’m based in the US, and so not familiar with how the A-League is broadcast in Australia. Am I right in thinking it’s on Fox Sports, which is a subscription channel?
One weird but smart thing that MLS did in the US was to actually pay ESPN to broadcast the games in the early days. which at least ensured that the games were widely seen. The relationship has evolved and now ESPN pays MLS for the broadcast rights.
Tifosi said | September 30th 2009 @ 5:54am | Report comment
Yes foxsports is offered on FOXTEL which is a pay tv network. ( It is like Direc TV)
The difference between MLS and the A-league is that every game of the A-league is Nationally broadcast if you have Foxsports. That means the games are all played at different times throughout friday night to sunday afternoon