O’Neill needs to open chequebook, raid NRL
By kingplaymaker, 1 Oct 2009 kingplaymaker is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Greg Inglis, John ONeill, NRL, robbie deans, Rugby League, Rugby Union, wallabies
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Wallabies coach Robbie Deans talks to the team during the Wallabies Captain's run in Sydney on Friday, July 25, 2008. AAP Image/Jenny Evans
Many explanations have been given for the terrible failure of the Australian team to be competitive this year: lack of pride, lack of mental toughness, bad organisation from the coaching team.
However, the true reason is blindingly simple: Australian rugby only produces two-thirds of a Tri-Nations team in quality players, that is, 10 players out of 15, while New Zealand and South Africa produce more or less 15.
All three sides have roughly equally excellent coaching teams, and so when two teams have largely better players, they will most of the time beat the team with weaker players, except for occasional moments when the weaker team perform above themselves.
The ARU’s current strategy for combating this is supposedly to put money into the grass-roots level of the game, and in addition, to try and buy young league players before they become famous.
Basically, to grow the game and hence playing numbers.
Whether this is working in the long term or not, the fact remains that at the moment, and for the next few years, Robbie Deans simply does not have enough good players to beat his regular opposition.
And a corresponding loss of interest in rugby, and hence a decline in playing numbers – exactly what is to be avoided – will eventuate.
The solution is the following: John O’Neill needs to go on a massive spending spree.
This would have the twin advantages of increasing the strength of the national team and, as some of the players brought would come from rugby league, bringing more glamour to the code and weakening its rival.
If the game in Australia is not currently producing enough players, there is nothing wrong with supplementing it from league.
The moderate possibility: buy Dan Vickerman and Mark Gasnier. This would naturally strengthen the team in two fundamental positions.
The bold possibility:
Australia’s real problems lie in the outside backs. Drew Mitchell, Lachie Turner, James O’Connor and Adam Ashley-Cooper produced little or nothing in attack this year and only got away with it because in their positions, as opposed to the forwards, so long as a player does little wrong, it goes unnoticed that he hasn’t done anything spectacular.
Any league players who might be brought in to improve the team have to be acquired this season, as by next year, they would not have long enough to adapt before the World Cup.
This means buying out contracts and spending a lot of money.
However, what’s the point in spending a fortune on 28 year-old Gasnier when for a little more, the better Greg Inglis, who is 22, could be had?
O’Neill could buy Greg Inglis, Israel Folau, and Jarryd Hayne.
This would cost a lot, and involve buying out contracts, but it would have huge advantages:
1) Vastly strengthening the Australian team in its weakest areas.
2) League is surging in popularity at union’s expense. As any growth of a similar code is bound to damage the other, a move such as this would be a hammer blow to its momentum and bring back interest and glamour to union.
It would also create the impression that union is more attractive, as along with Mark Gasnier and Sonny Bill Williams, so many of league’s top stars would have moved over recently.
It could initiate a flood of conversions.
In addition, imagine the increased interest in the Super teams where these players would be based?
I wouldn’t overestimate how difficult it is to lure players like Inglis. They must be aware that playing a sport where nine of the teams are in the same city hardly constitutes the grandest stage for a great sportsman.
If O’Neill were to buy these three players and create a national competition, he would have guaranteed the game’s short-term and long-term future.
Sure, that would cost a lot. But what’s the alternative?
A huge decline in rugby’s popularity in Australia, a period of absolute disaster for the national team and the legacy of O’Neill as a catastrophe.
The money must be found, from more Bledisloe matches, from anywhere, even if it’s risky.
The decision now looms for the Wallabies and rugby in Australia: spend big, or be reduced to rags.
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October 1st 2009 @ 8:19am
Ian Whitchurch said | October 1st 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Got it. How about Matt Rogers, Lote Tuquiri and Wendell Sailor ?
October 1st 2009 @ 8:46am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
These guys were not good converts. They were selected to put bums on seats. They were rarely good enough to be selected for the Wallabies. Staniforth and Gerard were the poor buggers who missed out on great Wallaby careers due to the unfair selections of these guys.
The trend has continued with Tahu. He did not even perform well at Super 14, how was he ever selected in the Wallabies? Bums on seats.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:12am
The Link said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Ah yes the old Wallaby clause in the contract for Tiquiri, Sailor and Rogers.
Doesn’t say much for the integrity of Australian Rugby.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:08am
Shahsan said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:08am | Report comment
everyone does it. no sport is immune. Top drawcards always get preferential treatment.
in tennis, they even put pretty faces on centre court over top seeds.
Man utd bought Park Ji Sung to sell t-shirts. LA Galaxy bought beckham to boost crowds and sales, etc etc.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:07am
Brian said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
How many tests did they play???? If they were selected just to bring the crowds then that says enough about the integrity of the ARU to be rather worried about the future of the sport in this country.
October 1st 2009 @ 8:42am
cookie said | October 1st 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Bottom line is NOTHING is going to lead to an IMMEDIATE increase in strength….
Best bet is a BOOT UP THE BUM TO THE CURRENT MOB!
Belting the forwards with a cricket bat during ruck and maul training may toughen them up a bit…
Basic training in ruck and mauls….. Explain very very slowly to them which way is forward in a ruck? Explain that if they can’t go forward in a ruck they should at least hold the fort?
Bringing Phil Waugh back will go a long way to an IMMEDIATE increase in strength….at least he gives it his all, which is more than i can say about the players currently rated above him.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:13am
The Link said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Re Waugh – any co-incidence that when he was shunted from the squad the Wallabies went downhill?
He should be the first picked for the UK tour.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:25am
Justin said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Have a laugh, Waugh best years are behind him and he was never as good as Smith anyway.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:31am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Cookie, exactly, being tough on the current team and bringing back Phil Waugh will really not solve things. Maybe the team lost its confidence and motivation because they inwardly grasped that as a whole they are not good enough?
October 1st 2009 @ 11:10am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Maybe they are just getting beaten by a really good SA team and and always strong NZ team. After we play the Northern Hemisphere teams and perform well, I shall look to see how many of you are amazed at the strength of Aussie Rugby.
Few have ever looked good against the ABs and even they look slack against SA.
Perspective gents
October 1st 2009 @ 11:15am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
anopinion of course they are playing good teams, but I haven’t seen an Australian team look this bad for years, and New Zealand are much worse than in the recent past.
They were terrible this year!
October 1st 2009 @ 11:43am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Are you sure the ABs were terrible? SA awesome making everyone look bad beat them 3 times and France beat them in their first outing of the year. 9 games 5 wins.
I bet every team in history would look bad against this SA team.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:48am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
I don’t want to get into this, but I think SA benefitted from weak opposition, clumsy refereeing and rules, and are nothing special.
A good New Zealand team of old would have destroyed them, as would a good Australian side, even the Lions got close and they were a team of awful players.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:34pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
‘I bet every team in history would look bad against this SA team.’
Apart from the Lions? Nothing like misplaced confidence/arrogance, anopinion.
October 1st 2009 @ 8:49am
Brett McKay said | October 1st 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
The only thing I’ll pinch from RL for this debate is no, no, no no no….
I can’t think of any current NRL player that strikes me as being capable of making an easy transtition to Rugby. Hayne, Inglis, Folau are all brilliant players, but they’re brilliant becuase they’re instinctive and unstructured. Thurston would be exactly the same. Worse probably. Maybe if Craig Wing or Darren Lockyer were closer to 20 than 30, they might be worth a shot but no-one pops up at the moment.
Anyway, I’m with Sheek on this, I’d much rather the ARU – or Rugby Australia
– spent $50K on ten 18yo rugby players, or $25K on 20 15yo rugby players than half a Million on one NRL star.
And two other things:
- Rocky Elsom can hardly be called a league convert, he had one or two seasons in the Bulldogs lower grades after he left Nudgee College in Brisbane, and
- As Knives suggested, you’ve been very harsh on Adam Ashley-Cooper, who’s one of the leading contenders for the John Eales Medal as Wallabies PotY. In fact, if Ashley-Cooper hadn’t played so well in so many positions this year before demanding a shot in his preferred No.13, we might finally be seeing the international graduation of one Timana Tahu, rugby player. Now, the Tahu experiment (despite him being more talented than Tuqiri, Sailor and Rogers, imho) just gets added to the list of failed converts…
October 1st 2009 @ 11:13am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Brett,
Funny and accurate, well written.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:20am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
I’m not sure what A A-C does that merits such praise: reliability in defense, good kicking game, safe under the high ball, but in attack? A virtual nonentity. Think of Mortlock on-form and you see the difference.
I think Inglis, Folau and Hayne are exactly the type of players who would convert well because they are playing in the positions where structure is least important, they can do exactly what Mitchell and Turner cannot: break the line and create tries.
As I said elsewhere, there aren’t enough good youth players in Australia and so plouging money into them would be casting pearls at swine. The talent just isn’t there.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:49am
Brett McKay said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
KPM, I can only surmise that you’ve been watching different games this year if you haven’t seen Ashley-Cooper do anything. Don’t forget, he kept Mortlock on the wing for the Brumbies for a couple of games too.
Anyway, the reasons you give for Inglis, Folau and Hayne making the trasition easily were exactly the reasons Tahu was expected to do well in Rugby too, and how would you say that turned out??
And taking my point on youth further, if only half of the 18 and/or 15yo’s that I’d throw “star money” at come through, then rugby would be that many players better off then one failed League convert. And for the same price. The talent is there, it just has to be nutured better. You make it sound like there are no young rugby players at all..
Anopinion, it actually wasn’t supposed to be funny – but thanks anyway!!
October 1st 2009 @ 1:21pm
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
How would you know which 18 year-olds to throw star money at? It’s not clear at that age.
I don’t see what you base the assertion ‘The talent is there’ on.
I think Tahu did well when the foolish NSW coach finally selected him..
Regarding AAC, see my remark just below.
October 1st 2009 @ 12:27pm
Paradox said | October 1st 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
With regard to AAC…have you not been watching any games? He seems to be the only player who can break tackles.
October 1st 2009 @ 12:42pm
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Well, compared to Mitchell and Turner he breaks 100% more tackles certainly. However, he is an average player, solid, a good stand-in.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:28pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
AAC made the most metres of any back in the recent 33-6 loss to NZ (nearly 1/3 of the entire metres gained by the entire Australian 22), which is interesting when you consider the NZ forward dominance. Yyou might want to reconsider or actually bother to define your argument, KPM.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:46pm
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:46pm | Report comment
Yes, more than Turner or Mitchell or O’Connor! It’s not saying much to be better than those incompetents! Obviously in his position where there is more space he’s bound to make more metres than the inside backs whatever he does.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:57pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:57pm | Report comment
You miss the point which is, of course, that he made more metres than any player on the pitch, All Blacks included, which is significant given the forward dominance that NZ had exerted. Further, you are now shifting your argument. Having stated that the Australian outside backs were all useless ‘in attack’ you claim that AAC should make so many metres because he has so much space to work with. If he was that ineffective with ball in hand then he wouldn’t be the leading carrier.
October 2nd 2009 @ 12:03am
kingplaymaker said | October 2nd 2009 @ 12:03am | Report comment
There’s a lot of space in front of a 13 before gets tackled, even if he just runs straight into one, that’s all! So he’s bound to make a lot of metres.
AAC’s a decent stand-in nothing more.
October 2nd 2009 @ 1:46am
Colin N said | October 2nd 2009 @ 1:46am | Report comment
“There’s a lot of space in front of a 13 before gets tackled, even if he just runs straight into one, that’s all! So he’s bound to make a lot of metres.”
Absolute rubbish. If we’re going on that fact that a player who has the most space, then the full-back should always gain the most metres. You always see in metres gained chart, wingers and full-backs near the top, so it’s pretty impressive that Ashley-Cooper made more metres than anyone in the Australia-New Zealand match.
October 1st 2009 @ 1:54pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 1st 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Brett
Rugby Australia. Have you joined the movement.
October 4th 2009 @ 6:52pm
Brett McKay said | October 4th 2009 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
WCR, not yet, I’m yet to get in contact with Pablo and Invictus, which I need to do – I’m a Facebook decliner…
October 1st 2009 @ 8:51am
Bay35Pablo said | October 1st 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
If JON is going to open that chequebook, he should use to to pay for more development officers & resources in western Sydney, Brisbane, and regional Australia. Signing league players is a short term solution to a long term malaise. We need to be churning out juniors, not giving them up to AFL and soccer (and league), so that there are simply so many talented kids playing the game we have too many to pick from. without that, rugby is stuffed in the long term.
Step 1 is changing the deal with RUPA for the % that goes to the players. That is clearly limiting the ARU’s ability to put money into the rest of the game. How much good could they do for development with that $11,000 a game per player we wasted on the players this year? Real value for money there ….. refund please?
October 1st 2009 @ 9:45am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Bay see my answer below.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:16am
Rodney McDonell said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
I’m not going to read that. I assume the title says it all.
I would have thought the lessons of the past taught RU follower that their future does not lie within Rugby League. It lies within them selves. They will have to work hard no doubt. It may even take 10 years to get them back to where they belong.
Buying rugby league players will buy some short term exposure but it wont fix a mirard of their problems.
If your suggestign they buy Jarrad Hayne, then i suggest you remember another winnger of Fijian decent who was apparantly supposed to be the next best thing since sliced bread. Lote did some good things in Union, but he was no where near leathal as he was in RL and my point is, no one will be.
Union doesn’t give the space for outside backs to run. Buying top quality athletes who perfected their skill in other games are not going to turn things around for Union. Why not think outside the box? Recruit juniors at a younger age, get them into the top competitions, get them from Argentina, South Africa, PNG. There are underdeveloped and would not doubt be thriving with young players.
The main point is, don’t buy players conditioned to playing a different game. Get them younger and train them, give them guidence and they’ll reward you.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:32am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Well Rodney if you’re not going to read it, then I won’t reply to you.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:16am
Hammer said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
to open the chequebook – first there needs to be money and the ARU haven’t got it … your solution go into debt and increase Bledisloe Cup matches .. are you serious – the last thing the ARU can afford is to be debt ridden and what – Bledisloe 5, 6, 7 ?? … don’t you want the thing back or something .. plus the kiwis won’t sign up for it – the NZRFU have already said they’re shelving plans for the 4th next year … currently NZ is re-connecting with the NPC – the last thing the NZ public want is never ending test matches against Australia
League players don’t work – and all the backs in the world won’t matter if the poor forward pack remains … youth development and a long term approach is what is needed – however unfortunately all the resources are being poured into what will be the new albatross – the 5th franchise
October 1st 2009 @ 9:36am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Hammer you largely repeat what others say but you do draw attention to one point: the weakness of the Australian pack.
Now Australia has never had the strongest pack in the world, but have managed to make up for it elsewhere on the field.
The problem now is that the OUTSIDE BACKS are not making up for the weakness of the pack.
A pack can be thoroughly outplayed but the team can still win if the outside backs take their opportunities and score a lot of tries.
At the moment though, the Wallaby outside backs are doing zero.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:54am
Nick (KIA) said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
KPM,
Er, doing the same thing which has failed the ARU (buying league players) harder and faster isn’t going to do anything to help the Wallers or RU’s popularity in Aus.
And why is it the outside backs that are the problem? In the 3N game this year when the Aus forwards went well the Wallers beat the World Champs convincingly. Don’t you think maybe a few better forwards would be the way forward? And Brad Thorn is the exception that proves the rule – there’s no league players that would be any good as union forwards.
There’s no quick fix. Wallers will be good again when some good juniors come through.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:03am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Nick the outside backs were a joke: did they even score between them? Maybe a couple of times. All the attacking breakthroughs came from the superior inside backs, Giteau and Barnes.
Sure the forwards aren’t great, but it would take too long to adapt league forwards like Thorn and Elsom in time for the next World Cup, otherwise great idea.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:39pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:39pm | Report comment
‘All the attacking breakthroughs came from the superior inside backs, Giteau and Barnes.’
Unless you can prove that with statistic I’m pretty sure that’s totally inaccurate. AAC made countless metres.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:17am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
The aussie pack is a result of aussie schools and clubs playing the conditions available to them. Fast dry fields promote a lightweight, fast and skillful pack. Not giants or great scrummagers.
If I am right then development becomes even more important
October 1st 2009 @ 11:21am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
anopinion that has more to do with where they direct their talented players, not how many of them they have.
Same problem in England, all the talent goes into the forwards. It doesn’t mean there’s more of it.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:40pm
Knives Out said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
‘Same problem in England, all the talent goes into the forwards. It doesn’t mean there’s more of it.’
That’s incorrect. The English backs were superior to the English forwards last season.
October 2nd 2009 @ 1:17am
Knives Out said | October 2nd 2009 @ 1:17am | Report comment
‘A pack can be thoroughly outplayed but the team can still win if the outside backs take their opportunities and score a lot of tries.’
When was the last time that happened in test rugby?
October 2nd 2009 @ 1:20am
kingplaymaker said | October 2nd 2009 @ 1:20am | Report comment
Most of Australia’s history actually!
At times the New Zealand pack have been outplayed by the South African pack too but won through the backs.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:19am
JB said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
sorry but i have to agree with earlier comments – it’s been tried and failed.
Check out the club ranks – there are plenty of players who would improve with more regular training (but get the wallabies out of resorts and back into club ranks regularly to bolster the standard….)
October 1st 2009 @ 11:18am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
here here
October 1st 2009 @ 9:21am
MarkH said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
No No No. No more League players….as much as they are good at running the ball etc. Their defence is not the best and it takes so long to teach them how to. Its not a viable solution to player issues.
Money better spent on the junior ranks and the grade sides.
Cookies right, a good boot up the clacker never hurt anyone. The current mob included.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:45am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Ok, now in general I should say how absurd this idea that investment in youth development programmes will save the day:
THERE NEED TO BE YOUNG PLAYERS TO DEVELOP
At the moment, there are not.
This is why growth of the game needs to take place from the top down, making it more glamourously enticing, which means a strong international game the likes of which league doesn’t have, and NRL stars.
Then youths will want to play union, and there will be SOME TALENT to develop.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:20am
Invictus said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Youth development starts with U6′s. When I say effort needs to be expended at the bottom of the pyramid this is the starting point.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:22am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Fine but if the U6s aren’t playing rugby but league and AFL then it doesn’t matter how they’re developed afterwards.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:25am
Invictus said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Which is the entire point – get them into the game early and keep them there. It is far more efficient to do this than what you propose.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:23am
anopinion said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
When I drive around Brisbane on a Saturday I pass thousands of kids playing rugby. They watch the Broncos, Reds, Wallabies and Lions on tv. They play rugby despite the abundance of Broncos on free to air.
October 1st 2009 @ 11:33am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Invictus the problem is they don’t want to play because they think league’s more glamourous.
Of course, ideally both top-down and bottom-up approaches would be put in place.
However, the quality of the top product is more important: if that doesn’t exist, why would anyone play rugby?
Make it a handsome product first, and then work on the grass roots who will all want to play it as a result.
But if they don’t all want to play it, then it doesn’t matter how much you try to develop them.
October 1st 2009 @ 9:54am
Pippinu said | October 1st 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
DOW makes a good point about targetting young blokes who have been raised on both games – it seems pretty obvious really.
That’s not something that need an open cheque book – it just needs good organisation.
As I said on another thread – the last few days in Canberra the AFL has run its annual draft camp for about 70 17-18 year olds, most of whom will be drafted by the 16 AFL teams.
Now I understand that there is no draft system in the ARU, but the principle is pretty much the same, how often does it get together 70 of the best teenagers in the land together for a a week long training camp? (allowing the scouts from the 4 Australian super clubs to have a bit of a look)
If never, why not??
October 1st 2009 @ 10:08am
captain nemo said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:08am | Report comment
thats a good question pip and even if the ARU started with say 30 would be a step in the right direction. The thing is that if you had the 70 best schoolboy rugby players in one location showing off their goods to the 4 super teams, you would have 16 NRL teams spotters sitting in the trees over the fence seeing who had the X factor to sign up. On another note. There is no question that Brad Thorn has been the most successful player to play both codes at the highest level playing for Australia in rugby league and holding down a regular position in both the Crusaders and All Blacks. In fact he changed from league to rugby, made it to the highest level, came back to the broncos and won a grand final, went back to the crusaders and is still pulling on a black jumper.Thorn, being a forward to me makes this even greater an achievment. Until Thorn did this, I never thought a league forward could do it to that level but hey. Question, who is the next Brad Thorn that could keep changing back and forward at the highest level.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:12am
kingplaymaker said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Captain nemo converts to the scrum are not possible in the front row, rarely as a line-out jumping second row, never as an openside flanker.
However, as skilled powerful, blindside flankers, No 8s and non-jumping second rows there are vast numbers in league who could be converted well: and being less glamourous than backs, they come cheaper too.
October 1st 2009 @ 10:28am
Justin said | October 1st 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Guys dont they do this already with the Aus School Champs? Ie the best 100 or so kids in the country playing against each other over a week?
October 1st 2009 @ 2:46pm
Dogs Of War said | October 1st 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Over a week is just not long enough. To see them develop it needs at least a 12 week comp. Though something that runs parallel to the Super 14′s would be better, as the Super 14 teams can use these players to step up a level if required. No different to what Rugby League teams do.