Female commentators deserve more respect
Roar Rookie By TheWomensGame, 5 Oct 2009 TheWomensGame is a Roar Rookie
- Tagged:
- ABC, amy taylor, cheryl salisbury, commentators, female commentators, football, Kelli Underwood, Martin Tyler, simon hill, W-League, women
On Saturday the Westfield W-League kicked off on ABC1 with a Grand Final replay between Brisbane Roar and Canberra United. The Roar and Tameka Butt were awesome, and so were the women commentating on the match in former Matildas’ captain Cheryl Salisbury and defender Amy Taylor.
Both ladies were entertaining and informative with a relaxed attitude. But their appointment did raise the question: do you need to play at the highest level to be a good commentator?
In recent times female commentators have found their way into the boys club gracing our television sets and radios. Whilst obviously well respected by their male counterparts for their knowledge and professionalism, the public, and let’s face males, have greeted this change with some hostility.
Most recently BBC commentator Jacqui Oatley and Australian commentator Kelli Underwood have been in the firing line coping some ill-informed and plain sexist comments.
Not surprising a few comments were directed their way by some disgruntled, presumably, males in YouTube comments to videos of their work.
On Jacqui – “Football is a chance for men to block out having to interact with women for just 90 minutes, having a female commentator is just wrong.
“What a joke. She should be in the kitchen preparing John Motson’s tea not commentating herself!”
On Kelli – “Westie ****** speaking through their nose don’t need to be in my lounge room. We don’t need an advertisement to the world that Australian women are trash. Shrieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek. God what an awful voice.”
A major criticism is also the fact that these women have never played at the highest level and, therefore, couldn’t possibly have any idea about the game.
Let’s examine this with through two quick examples: Martin Tyler (Sky Sports) and Simon Hill (Fox Sports).
Along with the aforementioned John Motson, Martin Tyler is the premier voice in English football and like many I grew up listening to Martin commentate every major football final. Voted the FA Premier League Commentator of the Decade, Tyler is a well-credentialed and respected journalist.
However, shock, horror, Tyler has never played any top-flight football. I have had the great pleasure of speaking with Martin on numerous occasions. Only speaking with Cesc Fabregas or Cristano Ronaldo could have left me as speechless, and he would be the first to tell you his playing career was never spectacular.
The Australian football equivalent of Tyler is Fox Sports’ Simon Hill. Despite being a Manchester City tragic (we forgive you Simon), Hill has managed to overcome that disadvantage to become the voice of Australian football. In recent times it is almost impossible to recall a major Australian football moment that Simon has not commentated.
Yet, despite probably dreaming about it, Simon Hill never pulled on the jumper and played on the hallowed turf of the City of Manchester Stadium. I have also had the pleasure of speaking with Hill and considering his two major deficiencies (Man City and the whole playing thing), he manages to carry on a surprisingly intelligent and knowledgeable conversation about football.
Just two examples from the world of football and don’t get me started with AFL. The sport is riddled with them: Bruce McAvaney, Tim Lane, Stephen Quartermaine, Anthony Hudson etc.
So considering the above, is the adage truly relevant? From the research I would say no. If that’s the case, why aren’t female commentators taken as seriously? Personally, I believe that the sporting public is so used to male voices that they are instantly resistant to a females tone, pitch etc. However, like all other things in life, the more exposure we get of these talented, experienced and worthy individuals, the more they will grow on us.
I mean, who ever thought the game of football would take off in this country!
Recommend this story.
October 5th 2009 @ 3:13am
Freud of Football said | October 5th 2009 @ 3:13am | Report comment
No, women commentators aren’t immediately crap, I haven’t heard many but I remember they always tried introducing female boundary-riders in the AFL which is fine and of course one doesn’t have to have played the sport to be informed about it, on the contrary many great thinkers on sport are just that because they didn’t have the phyiscal talent so as long as they are informed then who cares what gender they are.
However basing your piece on the postings of a few pre-pubescent boys on Youtube doesn’t do much for your argument.
October 5th 2009 @ 10:27am
TheWomensGame said | October 5th 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Thanks for the comment. I wish it was just the pre-pubescent boys Freud of Football. I have had and heard many a comment. It’s just that the comments on YouTube best illustrated the attitude I was describing. I didn’t want to misquote anyone.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:35pm
Freud of Football said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
“I wish it was just the pre-pubescent boys Freud of Football. ” – Well how do you know it wasn’t? Because their username was “MiddleAgedMan35″? How do you know who it was writing the comments on Youtube? Could just as easily have been some disgruntled male commentators.
And if you don’t want to misquote then lookup your sources and provide a reference, no-one can accuse you of misquoting someone if you can back it up and if you can’t then your whole piece is unfounded and hence pointless which is a shame because it is a genuine issue.
October 6th 2009 @ 2:36pm
TheWomensGame said | October 6th 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
I take your point. I know it wasn’t pre-pubescent boys because I get the comments every now and then. However, it was an article meant to open up the sensible debate that did not denigrate any particular person. Naming people would do just that and I want to stay away from that.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:41am
Rabbitz said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Having never watched the commentators in question (or womens soccer for that matter) I will not comment about the performance of those individuals. I will however take you to task over the headline and the general direction of your spray.
I find it a little curious that you used the phrase “women commentators deserve respect”, shouldn’t that really be “competant comentators deserve respect”? It may have escaped you but sexism cuts both ways. By saying that they deserve respect because they are women, not because of their competance is as sexist as the comments used to highlight your point.
If they are good enough, the product is good enough they will win over the audience – then they will get respect until then, they do not ‘deserve’ respect.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:59am
dasilva said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
To be fair. The writer didn’t choose the headline but the Roar Editors does.
I think the article was titled “What’s in a voice”. Look at the URL
In any case, it’s just semantics.
The article is about how woman commentator are getting denigrate not due to competence but due to their gender.
Women commentators deserve respect because they are not assessed at the same playing field as other commentators.
____
Freud
Although youtube videos may not be the best source of information. I do remember reading that a female commentator that was experimented by the BBC ended up being abandon due to complaints by audience. I’m not too sure if this is the same commentator as in the articles but I believe the youtube comments are a pretty accurate summation of what a large proportion of audience were saying to the BBC.
I think the Brits have a bit more of an issue with this then in Australia.
October 5th 2009 @ 9:28am
dasilva said | October 5th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
To further my point. Rebecca Wilson. I have nothing but contempt for her as a journalist. I think she is a sensationist hack and not just because of her articles about football but as well as her articles about tennis afl etc.
However when Les Murray started denigrating her position as a journalist due to her bad looks. Well despite the fact that she is an imcompetent journalist, I still think that she deserves more respect then that.
That’s why i believe women commentator/journalist in general just simply deserve more respect.
October 5th 2009 @ 7:18pm
sam.gilbert said | October 5th 2009 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
she doesnt deserve any respect. she has no class, a total joke of a ‘journalist’. not surprising that she works for the telegraph, the biggest joke of a newspaper in the country.
October 5th 2009 @ 4:53pm
Freud of Football said | October 5th 2009 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
dasilva, you can’t fire someone based on some Youtube comments, women are being protected more-and-more from such acts and any woman to lose her job over something like that would be a shoe-in in court, I hardly think the BBC would risk it.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:23pm
dasilva said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
ok having done more research.
No one was fired (it was just people campaigning for her to be sacked, there is a whole facebook account and website dedicated her getting sack. Having read it, it has nothing to do with her commentating and all to do with the fact that she is a women).
Nevertheless there is a controversy over Jacqui Oatley commentating
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article26056.ece
now I admit Sun news isn’t exactly the most credible news source in the world but the fact that the headline say “Should girls be commentating?” (Instead of is Jacqui Oatley good enough to commentate MOTD) shows that women commentating sports seems to be an actual major issue in the UK and not just restricted to a few youtube comment (I admit the writer should have used that as the source rather then youtube comment).
I haven’t seen any headlines like that in any Australian newspapers yet.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:31pm
Freud of Football said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:31pm | Report comment
You haven’t and won’t see anything like that in Aus. The Australian media is a lot more conservative than Australian’s would like to believe and yes the Sun’s headlin is obviously trying to be inflammatory as they always are and no the Sun isn’t a credible news source.
If you want to write opinion pieces, base it on hard facts, quotes from people who know and show how you come to a conclusion. You can’t go around writing this sort of opinion piece on what is a genuine issue and back it up with Youtube comments and Facebook groups.
October 5th 2009 @ 10:31pm
sam.gilbert said | October 5th 2009 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
agree
October 6th 2009 @ 12:44am
dasilva said | October 6th 2009 @ 12:44am | Report comment
Yes she made a mistake about using youtube as a source.
However that doesn’t change the fact that the appointment of Jacqui Oatley was controversial. It is certainly not a non-issue or the writer being precious as Sam Gilbert implied.
Whether Sun is a good newspaper or not doesn’t change the fact that we have an ex-england international striker who was against her appointment solely because she was a women (he even acknowledge that he had no problem with commentator with no playing experiences. Although saying that, she used to play for the women amatuer “Greater London League” before she suffered an injury that left her on crutches for 10 months that ended her playing ambitions).
In any case some quotes that would have been more credibly use.
From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-449195/She-talks-good-game-verdict-split-lady.html (I hope the Daily Mail is more credible source).
“I am from the old school when football press boxes and commentary positions were men-only locations and the thought of a female commenting on football was abhorrent.
The mould was broken by Julie Welch, who wrote match reports for The Observer, since when females on football in the written press have become greater in number. But voice commentary is very different.
It is an insult to the controlled commentaries of John Motson, Mike Ingham and Alan Green that their domain is threatened by a new arrival whose excited voice sounds like a fire siren.” STEVE CURRY – Sportsmail football writer
“I am totally against it and everybody I know in football is totally against it. The problem is that everybody is too scared to admit it. I knew this would happen eventually. The world of football is so politically correct these days.
But commentating is different. You must have an understanding of the game and the tactics and I think in order to do that you need to have played the game.
I’m completely relaxed about women presenting football shows. Women like Clare Tomlinson are very good.
Maybe the BBC are trying to be innovative and ground-breaking but I think it undermines the credibility of the programme and when she commentates at the weekend I will not be watching.
I never really agreed that we should have women officials and I don’t think we should have female commentators. And my wife agrees!”
DAVE BASSETT
Ex-Premiership manager
October 5th 2009 @ 10:29am
TheWomensGame said | October 5th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Thank’s DaSilva you’re right, I didn’t pick the title. My original title was more generic.
October 5th 2009 @ 8:53am
Chris said | October 5th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
If a woman commentator is good then go for it. But that woman they have on the AFL sounds like a walrus being electrocuted.
October 5th 2009 @ 12:22pm
Victer said | October 5th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
hahaha
October 5th 2009 @ 9:31am
Redb said | October 5th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
For commentators their voice is gold, it needs to be crisp, clear and able to escalate into excitement to match the on field action without losing clarity.
Kelli Underwood (ch 10 – AFL) is a perfect example of not being able to carry her voice to the excitement phase without sounding likes shes trying too hard and screeching.
its not sexist, its just not good listening, makes you want to turn the sound down.
As for understanding the game, of course it helps if you’ve played the game at the highest level, but that is more for special comments, a commentator whether it be football, soccer, atlhetics or horse racing just needs to be able to follow the sport’s ebb and flow and then relate it to viewers/listeners.
Emma Quayle of the AGE newspaper is one of the best AFL journos, her pieces on up and coming kids in the draft, or TAC Cup, general acticles are usuallly of a very high standard, always a good read.
Redb
October 5th 2009 @ 9:55am
AndyRoo said | October 5th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
You don’t have to go to U tube to get childish comments bashing women commentators. There was an article about Kelli Underwood on this very site that attracted a lot of trolls.
I didn’t think she was that great but there seemed to be 4 commentators and there was one worse than her. Since she was the new girl and less experienced thats a pretty good result.
The ladies that do the Football (W league and Matildas) are pretty good.
October 5th 2009 @ 2:12pm
Brett McKay said | October 5th 2009 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
quite right Andy, and as plenty of people pointed out in said artcile on The Roar, give Kelli Underwood the same time that Quartermain and Lane and McAvaney enjoyed before making judgement.
Is the real problem that it’s a female commentating, or that it’s a female commentating on a male sport??
October 5th 2009 @ 2:18pm
Redb said | October 5th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Beleive me Brett, IMO it has nothing to do with a female commentating on sport, we’ve had quite a few female boundary riders for years in the AFL, it is purely the voice it is not suitable.
October 6th 2009 @ 10:06pm
dasilva said | October 6th 2009 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
The idea that we shouldn’t have female commentating on a male sport really is ridiculous (I’m not saying that you Brett Mckay are saying that)
I mean, we see male commentators commentating in female sports all the time and no female goes up in arms about it.
October 5th 2009 @ 12:20pm
Simone` said | October 5th 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
I don’t think it was because she was a female, but Kelli Underwood, was quite poor. But there are many many male commentators out there who are just as bad. Nothing against women commentators, im sure there are some very competant commentators out there, just the examples you used aren’t good commentators, irrelevant of sex.
October 5th 2009 @ 1:20pm
Redb said | October 5th 2009 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Most of the better commentators are on radio anyway. They’re able to invoke the image and excitement of the game in your head whereas TV commentators need pictures.
October 5th 2009 @ 1:43pm
Viscount Crouchback said | October 5th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
I am afraid that the female voice lacks sufficient timbre or gravitas to pull off the onerous task of calling a football match. I have no problem with women attending sporting events if they merely sit quietly and refrain from tittering or gossiping, but I have a profound problem with high-pitched voices being imposed on other spectators who simply wish to watch the match in peace.
It is all very well complaining about sexist comments, but it is in fact true that the gentlemen of the Anglosphere have for decades used sport as a means of escaping the strident voices of women and children. It is intolerable that, in the name of political correctness, one of the few remaining bastions of male relaxation should be undermined so carelessly.
Doubtless I shall receive a torrent of abuse for this post, but I am quite certain that 80% of gentlemen think precisely the same way.
October 5th 2009 @ 1:54pm
Redb said | October 5th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Humorous post.
However, my post vehicle is currently in reverse speeding backwards as far as possible from your position or just far enough away to watch the carnage
is it twittering not tittering these days old boy.
October 5th 2009 @ 4:56pm
Freud of Football said | October 5th 2009 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
“I am afraid that the female voice lacks sufficient timbre or gravitas to pull off the onerous task of calling a football match.” – As opposed to someone like Robbie Slater? Listening to his voice is hardly satisfying. Or what about McAverney in the AFL, he sounds like a 12 year old girl but there are no complaints about him?
October 6th 2009 @ 10:44pm
katzilla said | October 6th 2009 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Seriously Viscount, Role Play forums are that way —->
October 5th 2009 @ 4:38pm
ABCDEFG said | October 5th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
I am in no means sexist, I respect women equally. But I will say this, women voices are higher pitched so it doesn’t have …. well a manly voice which works better in a game of sport. Watching the AFL and hearing the female commentator speak was fine for me but I do prefer a man’s voice, it better engrosses you in a game of. It just works better when a male commentates, it’s the lower tone not the quality of the commentating I’m talking about. But whatever those commentators said is sexist and shouldn’t be encouraged.
October 5th 2009 @ 6:48pm
sam.gilbert said | October 5th 2009 @ 6:48pm | Report comment
i think you’re being a bit precious.
pretty sure some of those comments were jokes.
the ones that werent- who cares? i wouldnt say that women commentators have been treated with hostillity, rather a few computer nerds felt like being sexist, hardly newsworthy.
October 6th 2009 @ 12:56am
dasilva said | October 6th 2009 @ 12:56am | Report comment
I think a way to prevent this scenario. Is to simply downplay it and not create such a big deal and depoliticised the event. I believe the media should change the way they cover this issue.
When a women gets into a position of importance. It’s not a victory for womens rights, it’s not making the position more reflective of society, it’s not a message to empower women worldwide (similarly I believe people should depoliticised the importance of race as well. The whole Obama phenomenom had too much importance on his race)
It’s simply a person getting appointed to the job because they are best suited to it. No fan fare no great media coverage. Just a shrugged and move on.
If the media plays this as anything else it would just lead to accusation that it is a marketing gimmick and that the women is only selected only because she is a women and is a token selection etc. It would also put the person on unnecessary pressure as she is not just doing this for herself but for women everywhere which quite frankly is a burden for anyone.