By Angus Boyle -
October 10th 2009 @ 6:20am
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Can Olympic 7s bring union and league players together?
106 IOC members voted yesterday to include rugby 7s into the Olympic programme for Rio 2016. With the lure of an Olympic gold medal and the desire to see Australia succeed in the spotlight of the Summer Games, the ARU and Australia’s governing league body should make the best players from both sports available.
Imagine the excitement generated from a 7s tournament in the weeks leading up to the cut-off date to finalise Australia’s Olympic team.
Only one weekend every four years would have to be set aside from the NRL and rugby union calendar in Australia.
24 teams could easily be fielded, playing out of a packed SFS, Homebush or Lang Park.
Teams could be entered from the five Australian Super 15 provinces, the 16 (or more by 2016) Australian NRL clubs, an Aboriginal select, and two more from the Australian club rugby scene or other special select teams.
Players from the already established 7s squad playing in the IRB’s World 7s Series could bolster the squads of the Super 15 teams.
The tournament would be a smash-hit with the public.
The ARU may not play ball over a Kangaroos-Wallabies exhibition, but the added playing strength of a combined union/league 7s squad for the Olympics would be a great incentive for the ARU and NRL equivalent to make this happen.
There’s no reason why league players cannot make an immediate successful transition to union 7s.
Three man scrums and two man lineouts would not be a problem for the league boys.
Concerns over rucks and mauls would not be a serious impediment as history has shown that English rugby league sides such as Bradford and Wigan have triumphed in the Middlesex Sevens since union went professional.
Cast a thought to the power, speed and skill of such a side if picked from players today.
Inglis and Folau; Hayne, Giteau and Slater; George Smith and David Pocock against Nathan Hindmarsh and Anthony Watmough; and steppers like the ageless Preston Campbell, Quade Cooper and Kurtley Beale.
But let’s not get picky. Each team would have star power.
The match-ups would provide countless talking points for fans of both codes as their heroes matched each other one-on-one.
Furthermore, a tournament showcasing the pace, skill and action of 7s would bring to the fore skillful players from outside present representative teams.
In the quest for an elusive and iconic Olympic gold medal, the tournament would provide selectors a magnificent platform from which to choose a truly unified Australian 7s squad.
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(151)
Firestarter Bob said | October 10th 2009 @ 6:57am | Report comment
Yes, great. Why not let the soccer and AFL boys in too? How about Karmichael Hunt? How about our Aussie cricketers? I see them playing touch footy in their training warm-ups all the time. Andrew Symonds anyone?
sheek said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:41am | Report comment
The world doesn’t work like this.
As if rugby union would invite rugby league players to participate in their team/sport. Also, Australia is the only place where this might be an issue.
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Having just read the article, I was full of unbridled optimism, thiniking to myself: yes, why not?
Until I read the first two responses!!! (with more to come).
oikee said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Sorry mate, not interested, i just found out richie macaw won a commonweath medal for rugby, i had no idea they played rugby at the games. So as far as i am concerned, i could not care less about rugby at the olmypics. League has other mountains to climb. As far as i am concerned, playing sport at the olmypics is a backward step for league. Its to intense for a gimmac type sport.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Angus, it’s a good idea if it could ever come to fruition.
As for the players you suggested, I don’t think Hindmarsh and Wartnough could play sevens. Ideally you need to find very skiilful, mobile forwards (such as George Smith) or backs who could play as forwards.
If a composite Australian team were to be picked today, players such as Inglis and Mortlock might be the props, with George Smith as hooker, and the backs would consist of two playmaker types and two outright speedsters, so maybe Giteau and O’Connor/Thurston, and two fast men, of which Australia has many: Slater, Turner, Hayne etc etc.
All must be good tacklers, although Campo managed to be the best sevens players for years without this particualr skill.
Ps Oikee. Mccaw has never won gold at the Commonwealth Games; you’re thinking of Mils Muliaina.
Dale said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
The idea had occured to me as well.
Australia needs to pick the top 15 Rugby players to win Gold.
Choosing from 33 percent of tthe rugby gene pool means we are always behind NZ, England, and South Africa.
Dogs Of War said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
The NRL wouldn’t want to participate just because it draws attention to the talent they may have and they could see some players being lured away with a big paycheck. Doesn’t mean they will go well in the other code, just that money is hard to resist.
Chris said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I love the idea. If the ARU is serious about winning gold then bringing in a couple of gun league players is essential.
As a person who loves both codes I think this would be great (allthough I can see the NSWRU Old Boys getting their knickers in a knot over it).
Imagine a Hayne/Inglis/Slater on a Sevens field. With that kind of space they would tear any other team to threads. Ideally I guess the ARU should look at picking all Union forwards and all League backs.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
No, most union forwards would be lousy at sevens. the exceptions would be good handlers such as George Smith. The trick is to pick 1-2 loosies and 1-2 backs who can play as forwards eg Inglis and Mortlock, who are good in the air and big enough for forward play. Jonah Lomu, remember, played as a forward in sevens, as did Eric Rush, who was a winger in 15s..
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
As did Tana Umaga (at club level, he never played for NZ in 7s), and flormer All Blacks centre Alama Ieremia, when Samoa won in HK in 1993.
therealalekid said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment
No, simple as that.
It was the IRB that has spent millions forming a world series, it was the IRB that tendered the bid for entry in the olympics at the cost of thousands, it is the IRB that is recognised by the IOC, like FIFA runs the football comp, FIBA runs the Basketball comp etc….And this was all done for the benefit of the game of Rugby Union.
It will be up the the ARU who they want to select, although I’m not sure whether NRL clubs would want to release players mid season or whether the IRB will be keen on Rugby League players being used.
If Rugby League folk want to expand their game they have to look towars their own tournaments, this has squat to do with them.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Very good point too.
therealalekid said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
“Concerns over rucks and mauls would not be a serious impediment as history has shown that English rugby league sides such as Bradford and Wigan have triumphed in the Middlesex Sevens since union went professional.”
this has a tendancy to sometimes come up. The Middlesex sevens is a preseason tournament with squads that largely consist of academy players and reserves, it does not consist of the best sevens players that would play on the IRB tournament. As an example the year before Bradford contested it the tournament was won by the British Army and the year before that the ‘Penguins’ representative side. Therefore no Gollings, Ryder, Serevi were involved.
Even then though the Bradford side that won consisted of three Wakefield RUFC players, one of which was an ex Englands Sevens captain.
Invictus said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Won’t happen. League is a different sport. If it wants to get into the olympics tehn it can spend the time, effort and money to do so on its own behalf.
Pete said | October 10th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
League is a different sport but many of the athletes have the perfect attributes for sevens. Their strength and speed is tailored made for sevens. An Olympic gold medal trumps any trophy on offer in RL. As a young player RL, do you want the riches of Rugby, a choice of country to play in and now a possible Olympic birth? It places the NRL in a difficult position.
They didn’t let Benji Marshall go to Japan for a “sebatical”, its unlikely they will let them play Rugby sevens. On the other hand I’ll be pretty miffed as an Astralian RU player to miss going to the Olympics because a “johnny come lately” RL player took my place.
If I was a young RL player I’d make sure I started playing RU instead of (or as well as) RL to ensure I have the relevent skills and keep my options open.
..but anyway this is all speculation. The great thing is Rugby is the Olympics. It’ll be great to get some government funding into the sport!
Invictus said | October 10th 2009 @ 11:57am | Report comment
I think you miss my point. If RL players want in then they have to play union – full time. They cannot play in the NRL and then suddenly play Rugby 7’s just to go to the olympics.
Pete said | October 10th 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Sorry, I was just disagreeing with your first few words… and then agreeing with you. And then my response was a general point.
macavity said | October 10th 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
A different perspective.
The premier rugby organisation in each country should be charged with assembling the olympic squad.
Rugby League and Rugby Union are simply versions of the same game, afterall. But for the historical prejudices of the RU establishment, we would be playing the same game now.
The premier rugby organisation in Australia (in the world even), is the NRL.
Therefore the NRL should be charged with assembling the Australian rugby 7s squad.
I would expect us to win gold.
San Jorge said | October 10th 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Or perhaps seeing that the IRB were the ones that successfully had rugby (union) 7’s added to the Olympic program perhaps the relevant IRB affiliated organisation should organise. You know the one that actually competes in the international sevens circuit. By all means hold open olympic trials if necessary but why would the NRL have anything to do with it?
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Nonsense. One of the first tournaments Lote Tuqiri played for Australia was at the Adelaide Sevens and he was pretty dire, esp for a Fijian who had played the game before.
League and union are different and the instincts of the players are different. This silly view that all the league stars can just turn up and be great at union has been proved wrong again and again and yet is still persisted with.
Justin said | October 11th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
The NRL is the premier rugby organisation in the world! Couldnt make it up…
This thread is a joke of the largest kind. Thanks for the giggle Angus.
kingplaymaker said | October 10th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
It would seem just a little unlikely that union would let league come in and profit from their big advance in global profile: not in a million years.
anopinion said | October 10th 2009 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Think of the potential for 3 Rugby codes in Australia. RU, RL and Sevens. Their is potential for a Sevens League being established, funded and marketed to the point of being a threat to other footy codes in Australia.
Gary said | October 10th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
It is going to take more than a few widely seperated tournaments to win Olympic Gold. IMHO we should be be thinking about a 7’s season, possibly played at night in the summer so as to not clash with 15s /NRL / AFL. Maybe state based to allow all comers to give it a go with the winners or a representative side (male and female) from each state playing a finals season. Rotate it around the states to develop a true national interest.
Nam Turk said | October 10th 2009 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
Olympic sevens needs to be separate from the IRB, who created the new game. If the Aussie Olympic committee is the one in charge of selections, that changes the whole landscape. If the ARU is running things, partisan attitudes will persist.
Justin said | October 11th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Sorry but how many sports are governed by the AOC? I think you will find most if not all sports are governed by the the ruling sports body and make selections on behalf of the AOC. The AOC dont say no sorry we disagree with you we want such and such to be in the squad.
Nam Turk said | October 11th 2009 @ 6:18pm | Report comment
That’s pretty much my point. The national body is not in charge so the overall best interest is not paramount. It’s the same reason Aussie goalkeepers are not picked for international rules tests versus Ireland. The AFL wants AFL players and ARU will want ARU players.
TommyM said | October 10th 2009 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
I think that this is a very good thing for Rugby Union. It will see masses of funding directed into funding rugby 7s at school level around the country and expose people to a wonderful form of the game that will allow them a doorway into enjoying the admittedly very complicated and therefore possibly somewhat unaccessible game that is 15-man RU. Whether League players are allowed to vie for spots or not, the long-term effect will definitely be of great benefit to RU IMO.
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
It does raise the question: on what basis is a team selected?
Are the best “sevens” type players invited from the 4 (or 5) super teams?
Do they run a special comp a few months out?
When one looks at this question from that perspective, then surely anything is possible.
If the selectors go into it with only one single thought, and that is to win a gold medal – they you go into it trying to put together the very best possible team you can muster.
But if it’s all just a marketing exercise, then you may not go into it with the sole thought of winning a gold medal.
dan said | October 10th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
If that was to happen –
Pretty sure Australia would smash the other teams, winning the gold medal. Rugby League would also swamp the teams – who from the Wallabies line up would edge out a Kangaroo? Seriously? Maybe Matt Giteau just for evenness, but Thurston is a better player and would deserve to be picked. Hayne Slater Inglis Hodges Morris (x2) [and even Tuqiri!].
This is like the league versus union Australia games that are always planned but always rejected by the ARU. The reason they are rejected is that it would show how poor the union players are, and further damage unions reputation.
The only thing holding league back from complete Australian domination is the stupidity of a small minority of its players, as well as white collar business dollars.
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Mate, I don’t know you, but it’s pretty obvious you havn’t watched many sevens tournaments. Tuquiri played for Australia the last time it was in the Olympics and he didn’t do well at all. In fact, Australia overall didn’t perform well. And it’s not because it had Wallabies instead of Kangaroos, it was because it had players inexperienced at 7’s.
I don’t mind telling you, that you are pretty ignorant of league vs union as well. They used to have this game every year in the UK. The two best teams from both tournaments (league and union) would play each other in 2 games, one league and one union. The league team always won the league game, and the union team always won the union game. They, despite their obvious similarities are two completely different games.The reason they don’t have a Kangaroo’s VS Wallabies game is because as seen in the UK, it is just not the spectacle you think it is. You just end up with two poorly contested matches and everyone is disappointed.
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
Sorry, Commonwealth games, not olympics.
Chris said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:53pm | Report comment
Although as I recall the League team always had a superior for and against over the two games (despite the Union game having more points available).
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Which means absolutely nothing.
Chris said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Well actually it means the League team scored more points and conceded less. Which means a lot!
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Dan, since you obvsiously missed it, I repeat my earlier post:
Nonsense. One of the first tournaments Lote Tuqiri played for Australia after he switched from league was at the Adelaide Sevens and he was pretty dire, esp for a Fijian who had played the game before.
League and union are different and the instincts of the players are different. This silly view that all the league stars can just turn up and be great at union has been proved wrong again and again and yet is still persisted with.
Gary said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
“The only thing holding league back from complete Australian domination is the stupidity of a small minority of its players, as well as white collar business dollars.”
and the fact that League is a non event outside Queensland and NSW.
Stop dreaming. If you want to go to the Olympics you are going to have to get involved in the international game.
Pippinu said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Yes – and Sevens might be just the ticket.
Dogs Of War said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
I think you are kidding yourself if you think it’s going to cause a major take up of the sport just because it’s in the Olympics now.
The only thing it does help is that the Government will provide some extra dollars to the sport, but really how much will they provide on top of the funds they are already providing the sport?
Shahsan said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
The govt will pour as much into it as any other medal prospect, and that is what 7s is for Australia: a definite gold medal prospect. And I’d be willing to bet that every rugby player worth his salt will try to get a ticket on that team for 2016.
Dogs Of War said | October 11th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Yeah, that’s my point. 2 Gold Medals up for offer, not sure how much funding they provide per medal, but lets say $500K each (as their is a good chance they will win them, they will at least qualify). It’s only $1mil, which isn’t a lot. Though it would probably underwrite the team travelling around the globe for the 7’s each year. Though that all depends if it’s per year, or per every 4 years.
Nam Turk said | October 11th 2009 @ 6:24pm | Report comment
Maybe RL can invent a whole new game and just call it rugby league, kinda like the IRB did.
allblackfan said | October 10th 2009 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Physical prowess is only half the equation.
Fitness, speed (more so than size) and support play can easily negate physical prowess hence the recent, and continuing, rise of Kenya as a Sevens force.
In Sevens, EVERYONE has to carry their weight. Unlike 15s, you can’t afford to carry dead weight. And that’s what the RL players would be; their instincts would get the team intro trouble.
cookie said | October 10th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Can’t believe I read this…
Nothing personal mate but you can’t be serious? What are you smoking?
Why don’t we invite anyone from anywhere then? Although an open tournament isn’t a bad idea.
The good thing about it is that it will raise Rugby’s profile but i can assure you the ARU are to thick to take advantage of it.
Leauguies wouldn’t understand that the ball must stay in play….they just couldn’t play a game where they can’t hold onto it no matter what….
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Absolutely correct. The league players would have to completely rethink the way they play and this would not be an easy task for them at all. Even normal 15 a-side players have trouble adapting to the speed and style of 7’s. I also think they would become increasingly frustrated at having the ball taken away from them every time they were tackled, or having to release it.
It’s a romantic idea, but not a particularly feasible one unfortunately.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Correct.
And before anyone counters your argument with Wigan winning the Middlesex sevens in the 90s, the argument against that is that Wigan were a professional team playing against teams of amateurs or semi-pros. Their fitness, ruthlessness, defence etc were in a different league, so to speak.
But iif they were to try it again now I doubt if they would have a chance.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
if the Olympic 7s tournament were to be held next week, who would be in your team?
I suspect South Africa would pick a team based on their 15s team and not their IRB circuit-winning team (there would be no contest). I imagine they would picka team like this:
Props: Spies, Kankowski plus maybe Juan Smith
Hooker: Brusouw
Scrumhalf: Fourie Du Preez
Backs: Ruaan Pienaar, Jacque Fourie, Bryan Habana
Australia’s might be:
Props: Elsom, Mortlock
Hooker: Smith
Scrumhalf: Richard Kingi or Will Genia
Backs: Giteau/O’Connor, Ashley Cooper, Ioane
What would Great Britian look like? Or New Zealand? I suspect very few of the IRB 7s circuit guys would be involved.
allblackfan said | October 10th 2009 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
The likes of Elsom, Mortlock, Smith, Genia, Brusow are just TOO slow to play 7s.
A 7s forward pack basically comprises big backs; the rest of the team are the fast BACKS
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:31pm | Report comment
You mean forwards such as Victor Vito and DJ Forbes? Or Naevo? I bet Mortlock would beat all of them for speed.
While speed is important in 7s, you cannot select on sheer speed alone, especially at forward.
In the forwards you have to balance the need to have lineout and kickoff winners, to have ballast in the breakdowns and scrums, and yet to have speed of hand and of thought. Sheer speed and nippiness is useless.
I reckon Elsom and Mortlock would make great sevens forwards, with Smith as forager, gap maker, defensive organiser, and director of operations.
And then you have two nippy linkmen, such as the likes of Genia, Kingi or Giteau and one fast centre-like creator (O’Connor or Ashely Cooper or Staniforth, for example) and one out and out speedster, such as Ioane or Lachie Turner or Drew Mitchell.
allblackfan said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Shahsan, I come from Fiji.
I think I know a thing or two about sevens.
Speed is the MOST important aspect of a Sevens game. You can mix speed with size but it only takes one `plodder’ in the team to create an Achilles heel.
The fact that you talk about Smith foraging shows how little u know about the game. Have you actually sat down and watched it? Sevens is about possession, speed, fitness and support.
Ditto for Elsom. Has he even played Sevens?
Players like Vito, DJ Forbes (and Messam) started their senior careers in Sevens. They’re playing XVs now but they still show plenty of speed (not necessarily a good thing for a XVs forward).
As for Naevo, all I can say is that Fijians inherently combine size and speed. LIke all Islanders.
You want to win Olympic sevens? Start with speed and work from there.
The ABs and the Islanders are more serious about Sevens. Will this decision see the ARU get serious too?
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
What has your being Fijian got anything to do with anything? So all Brazilians knows more about football than anyone else? All American knows more about swimming than anyone else? Let’s debate like intelligent adults, ok?
I have watched and played a lot of sevens so I feel my views can be valid.
In the first place, a lot of this is sheer conjecture. I am merely suggesting that Elsom, Mortlock and Smith would make very 7s forwards based on teh way they play. There must be others out there who could be better but we won’t know until we trial them properly. As it is, none of the current Wallabies 7s forwards impress me. Few of the Kiwi forwards either.
And how do you know Elsom and Smith cannot play 7s? I reckon they have all the ingredients. The way it is set up in Australia, very few actually play 7s. Vito, Forbes and Messam are inferior players to Elsom and Mortlock, in any respect. That is why they won’t amount to much in 15s.
As for thsi statement of yours: “As for Naevo, all I can say is that Fijians inherently combine size and speed. LIke all Islanders.” What kind of argument is this? I can name you a hundred islander players who wouldn’t be good 7s players.
Will the ARU get serious? For sure. Australians love nothing more than winning medals at Olympics. They will pull out all the stops, esp in a sport they are good at.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:35pm | Report comment
Besides, I did not say speed is not important. Go read my reply again.
In the early 90s, Fiji had the wood on NZ despite the Kiwis packing in all the fast men such as Gallagher, Wright, Rush, Seymour, etc. And why? because Fiji had a dominant big man in Rasari who, although fast, would lose a foot race against all the Kiwis mentioned.
Then Samoa showed how to beat Fiji when they had Alefaio Vaisuai, Sila Vaifale and Ieremia to counter him and they won HK in 1993.
The Kiwis then regained the ascendancy when they got their own big man in Lomu.
As in 15s, it all starts with forwards and having men who can win the ball. Without possession, speed is useless.
allblackfan said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:44pm | Report comment
Goes to show how much you know.
Rasari was faster than MOST of those Kiwi players and he was not all that effective.
Fiji dominated because in the 90s their Sevens team was well-balanced in all areas. But most of all, they were quick around the field — quick to attack, to support, get back in line to defend.
If size is the key then how do u explain Serevi domination of Sevens?
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
I’m afraid I’m with allblackfan on this one. I was at the Adelaide 7’s tournament this year and very rarely did the ball ever go to ground, I think having players like Smith and Rocky would be a waste. What you want is speed and ball handling skills. You want the team to be running constantly and throwing the ball around fast and wide, keeping it moving.
Shahsan said | October 11th 2009 @ 12:19am | Report comment
IronAwe
I know exactly how 7s should be played. Please don’t use the Adelaide 7s, or indeed any of the current circuit events, as a guide. They are all played by second-ranked players, none of the best players in rugby. I would back the South African 7s team I named above against the SA 7 that won in Adelaide. Any time and easily.
I have watched EVERY HK 7s and World Cup 7s since 1984 and have already elucidated the ingredients you need in good 7s teams.
In any case, Smith would not be playing 7s as a 15s flanker but as a 7s hooker. he often plays inside centre at club level so knows how to distribute the ball, to play like a back. And he has mobility and fantastic skills, superior to many fast backs.
Like I have said before, it’s all about balance. You cannot pick 7 George Smiths/heindrich Brussous or Rocky Elsoms/Pierre Spieses.
Go read my posts again before you, like Allblackfan, embarass yourself as well.
JimC said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Shahsan – Henry Paul turned up at the HK7s in 2002 and outclassed Serevi and everyone else, a trick he repeated for 4 more years. RL players are perfect for 7s. RL is much closer to 7s than 15s is.
Shahsan said | October 11th 2009 @ 12:33am | Report comment
Henry Paul didnt outclass Serevi — he just had a better team ie Ben Gollings, Simon Amor etc. And Serevi was way past his peak. And Fiji were going through a historical low, 7s wise.
That was a good England team that won HK 3-4 years in a row but never quite won anything else. NZ still won the overall title each year.
One outstanding 7s player from RL doesn’t mean RL players are perfect for 7s.
In what way is RL closer to 7s than 15s is? The only way i can think of is that if you break teh first line of defence, chances are you’re in the clear.
And also, 7 is numerically closer to 13 than to 15.
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Leage and union – two different games – tick.
But once we enter the realm of sevens – surely they’re a lot closer together?
In fact, Sevens is such a different game that it seems pointless talking about the differences between League and Union.
It’s silly to argue that a top line League player with the relevant attributes for Sevens wouldn’t be an asset in any team.
This discussion should be steered more in the direction: what are the attributes required of a Sevens player?
Hansie said | October 10th 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Why would the ARU give up such a competitve advantage in the player recruitment stakes by giving leaguies free access to the Olympics?
Firestarter Bob said | October 10th 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Because it is paid for by the Federal Govt and Australian taxpayers. It is a restraint of trade to deny non ARU contracted individuals to seek entry into the selection process.
Justin said | October 11th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
I am sure there would be qualifying criteria FB that would prevent them from being looked at…
Firestarter Bob said | October 11th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
And I’m sure that the courts will find that to be an illegal restraint of trade.
Chris said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Perhaps if the ARU was serious about getting people to watch Sevens it would want to tap into the Australian League market by recruiting a few big names. After all – League is far, far bigger than Union here.
Bay35Pablo said | October 10th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Australia have been dire in Sevens because we have never taken it seriously. We tend to use it as a training squad. Kingi is from the Sevens side. If we did take it seriously (which we almost certainly will for the Olympics), and put our best rugby players in, then we might do better. However, even if we put the O’Connors and Smiths in, they would need some practice given the differences with the XV a side game.
Having said that, the publicity for rugby will be great. If we fielded a side with our top players, it would get a lot of attention. An Olympic Gold game against the ABs would be awesome. A mini Bledisloe. Assuming we got there … Plus a number of rugby minnows do well in Sevens. E.g. Kenya. The attraction of sevens is more teams are competitive.
Accordingly, why would the ARU let the leaguies rock in. Do we need them to win. If we did, would we admit it? Never.
Further, how many other countires will have this problem? Will England or NZ be thinking whether they should be looking to their league ranks? Apart from them ….. well, no.
Because union is a truly international game, and league is not. League being bigger than union is only the case in Australia.
It is like whenever asks whether league and union should merge, and the discussions about the rules. 99% of the union world would go, why would we?
League is a great game, and it has a lot of players I’d love to see in union. But it is a different sport. And a competing sport.
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
But for me a basic question remains: how do we put together the very best Sevens side?
Must they the whole team have spent the last 5 seasons in the Super 14/15s?
Is there scope to look beyond that in putting together the very best team possible?
Grimmace said | October 10th 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
Its already been mentioned but, the IRB spent all the money and did all the work to get rugby in. Why give another sport an opportunity to benefit fram the IRB’s work?
Work needs to be done to get 7’s taken more seriously in Australia. I’m a rugby nut, but I couldn’t name 3 players in the curent Australian squad. We’ve embraced new forms of cricket as a country, why hasn’t it happened for 7’s.
Working Class Rugger said | October 11th 2009 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Because the ARU hasn’t ever tried to make it anymore than what it currently is in Australia. By the way 3 current 7’s Reps. Richard Kingi, Henry Venderglas, Ben Coridas. Just to name 3.
Rickety Knees said | October 10th 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Instinctively Union and League are two very different games. In Union the ball is contested in every tackle so all are competing for it. League is the opposite – they have ball security for six tackles – hence players at the tackle run back rather than forward. I am not arguing about the quality of league players however they would need a full season of Rugby to get the hang of it. Until they play a season of Rugby – I would not consider them for the Olympics.
The world smart Rugby players will quickly exploit any technical or tacticak weaknesses.
Firestarter Bob said | October 10th 2009 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
“In Union the ball is contested in every tackle” was true over a decade ago! You’re kidding if you think that is still true now!
Why do you think they keep stats for counting consecutive “phases”? If it was really a contest then “phases” would never have entered the rah-rah world!
Justin said | October 11th 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
FB – the contest at the tackle is more crucial now than ever before. 10 years ago was when Union looked more like league with MaQueen coaching a recycle game that the laws allowed.
Firestarter Bob said | October 11th 2009 @ 9:13am | Report comment
You’re looking via blinkers! It might look like a contest, but the end result is 85%-95% go with the team that already had the ball!
Funny you should cite MacQueen. Try this from earlier in 2009: http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/cricket/the-changing-face-of-rugby-is-proving-a-tough-subject-to-tackle/2009/03/27/1237657146818.html “In 95% of breakdowns today the attacking side retains possession, suggesting that breakdowns have largely ceased to be real contests for the ball. But when players on their feet are allowed to use their hands in the ruck – as they can under the ELVs – the retention rate drops to 85%.”
You can’t deny the facts.
Bay35Pablo said | October 11th 2009 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
From memory in the Wellington test where Eales kicked the penality to win the Bledisloe, the Wallabies had 32 consecutive phases. When was the last time you saw that? If the ball isn’t being or can’t be contested in the ruck, why can’t we get 32 now?
Firestarter Bob said | October 10th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
The USA’s ESPN network today on the “Around the Horn” panel show just made the big announcement about the Party 7s getting a run at the Olympics! only problem is, the footage that they showed was all action from the NRL! Guess they looked at rah-rah and couldn’t find enough action!
therealalekid said | October 10th 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
“Olympic sevens needs to be separate from the IRB, who created the new game. If the Aussie Olympic committee is the one in charge of selections, that changes the whole landscape. If the ARU is running things, partisan attitudes will persist”
It’s not difficult to understand the IRB is the body that is recognised by the IRB and who run the tournament and all the facets of the events such as disciplinary. Just like how FIFA organise the Football competition, you cannot separate the IRB from the tournament. it is the case that only one international body can run an olympic event 9hence why Karate finds it difficult to become an olympic sport).
Selection will be decided by the host unions who are members of the IRB, just like in any other sport.
Pete said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
An interesting aside – I may be wrong, but I don’t think competitors at the Olympics get paid… but the IOC makes a huge amount of money. Based on the Possibles vs Probables farce, do you think the Australian players will demand a cut of the profits
The IOC will say no, so the sevens tournamant will end up being held at a high school ground some where in Rio.
I wonder how RUPA will handle it….
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:25pm | Report comment
“Selection will be decided by the host unions who are members of the IRB, just like in any other sport.”
Well – yes – but the scenario isn’t identical to many other sports – that’s why the question is quite open.
In soccer – you have leagues, other cup comps, internationals, pretty much all year round.
What exists in Sevens?
If I”m not mistaken – pretty much close to bugger all.
This is why I struggle to understand why anyone can actually be dismissed as being a potential Sevens player.
Who can actually say for sure who the very best Sevens players are in Australia right now? How on Earth could anyone know for sure?? Where is the comp where they are being tested day in day out?
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
I think the inclusion of 7s will change the rugby calender for everyone, esp in Olympic year. The year might be structured in such a way that there will be clear 7s windows for teams to prepare and play a couple of tournaments on the trot.
The best players will want to play and in that year they will be given the chance to do so but they cannot just turn up and play — they need to have proper preparation through the right fitness training and by playing.
At the Commonwealth Games in melbourne it was significant that the Aussie team improved markedly when Giteau, Latham and Tuqiri had all gone out injured. Suddenly the combinations of teh regular squad memebers, while they were inferior players individually, came to the fore.
But while many of teh top players will want to play, not all good 15s players are good 7s players.
IronAwe said | October 10th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
PIPPINU – Mate, there is the Hong Kong 7’s, the Dubai 7’s, the rugby world cup 7’s the commonwealth 7’s the wellington 7’s Adelaide 7’s Edinburgh 7’s, london 7’s, south african 7’s and probably more that I don’t know about. The majority of which make up the World series, and Australia features a team in almost all of them to my knowledge. So pretty far from ‘bugger all’. It’s pretty safe to say that the guys who play in those tournaments each year would be our best 7’s players and taking a gamble on using Wallbies could backfire for both the Wallabies and the 7’s.
Pippinu said | October 11th 2009 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Sorry – I’m aware of those sorts of tournaments – but I don’t actually see how it changes the point I’m making.
Do players dedicate their playing careers to playing in Sevens tournaments?
Or is it more a case of whoever is available squeezing in a game in between more pressing engagements?
The basic question remains: by what means will we select a team capable of winning gold?
ohtani's jacket said | October 11th 2009 @ 9:08am | Report comment
There’s an IRB Sevens World Series that runs for six months of the year from December through to May. Generally speaking, the players are chosen from the 15 a side game and are usually young players who have yet to reach higher representative honours. NZ coach Gordon Tietjens often has to deal with player unavailability, largely because the sevens circuit clashes with the Super 14. Former sevens stars often go onto higher honours and are only recalled for major tournaments such as the Commonwealth Games. I’m sure the Olympics will fit that bill. Nevertheless, sevens is a specialist game. I’d be wary of trying to pack a side with star power, especially overrated league players.
Pippinu said | October 11th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
ohtani
this is the point – you say it yourself – Sevens is a specialist game – and at the moment it is treated more like a side activity for players earning a living via rugby à XV.
Do we continue down that path of picking teams in a hit and miss manner – or do we start picking Sevens specialists – in which case – does that necessarily mean you are sourcing them all directly from rugby à XV?
Shahsan said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
I think you would still pick your best rugby players per se, but only those who can play sevens. And you would have trials/competitions to find who can play and who cannot.
I dont believe in this idea of specialists, aside from rare individuals such as Serevi or Ryder or Gollings who were all better at 7s than they were at 15s.
The only reason for the emergence of what is thought of as “specialists” in recent years is that the players left to play 7s in the circuit are those too young or just not good enough to pick up 15s contracts anywhere else.
We have not seen — or seen only rarely — the best rugby players play 7s in the past 15 years. The last time was probably the 1997 7s World Cup, when South Africa picked a brilliant team — Van der Westhuizen, Andre Venter, Skinstad, Snyman et al with one so-called “speciialist” in Stephen Brink — that was beaten by a great Fiji team, led by Serevi.
I would pick a team of great rugby players to pick a team of specialists any time. For example, a 7 such as Spies, Brussou, Kanskowski, Du Preez, Pienaar, Fourie, Habana — as long as they are allowed to gel through training and some match play — would beat any team on the 7s circuit, 9 times out of 10.
Pippinu said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Well, it’s an intriguing question – there remains plenty of scope for Sevens to develop into a separate game, quite different to rugby à XV (I mean moreso that it already is), where there is a premium on athleticism, pace, and most importantly, stamina (following on from ohtani’s point).
And I firmly believe that your elite League player fits the mould perfectly (if they wanted to pursue that option).
It still remains a side activity to the main game – and that is pretty much my point – that may well change.
therealalekid said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
Erm, you missed the point, i was stating that the ARU are the ones who will be selecting the players as with the case with Basketball, Handball and all other teamsports.
Most players historically have played on sevens tours and from rugby union comps. Most of the south african side comes from the currie cup. It will be be up to host unions how they will select players some like USA are looking at central copntracts for players in Britain we will likely to pick a mixture of the guys from the tour with some big names from the full game.
Pete said | October 10th 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
I knew that we won an Olympic medal in Rugby in 1908, but didn’t realise we (or one player in particular) had been so successful http://corporate.olympics.com.au/athlete/1021/Daniel+Carroll
MarkH said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Yeah let Leaguies play..but they have to be IRB registered player first. So who does league wanna cough up? wont be back until contract expires either.
Pippinu said | October 10th 2009 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
Yes – that would be the case – but it’s not an entirely insurmountable hurdle – of course, there’s a lot of ducks that would need to line up.
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 9:57pm | Report comment
Allblackfan:
Are you serious? Rasari faster than most of those guys? And not effective?
You really don’t know what youre talking about. You’ve just disgraced all Fijians everywhere with your lack of intelligence and perception of the game of 7s.
And please go read my replies again. Did i say it was all about size? That balance is not important? Did i not say speed is a basic prerequisite? And who is the ‘plodder’ in the teams I have named?
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
Allblackfan
To help you out, here is an interview with the great Waisale Serevi, in which he names Rasari as one of his all-time 7s players. And read his requirements for 7s forwards ie ability to win the ball.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/rugby/Saturday-interview-Sevens-master-Serevi.5163166.jp
Shahsan said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Allblackfan
here is Gordon Tietjens (you know who he is, dont you?) on the “not all that effective” Rasari (in your own words), whom he also named in his all-time 7s team:
“Tietjens said Rasari, who was part of the Fiji team which won the Hong Kong title in 1990, 1991 and 1992, was one of the best in the abbreviated code.
“I always remember him as a youngster. He was big, athletic, such a wide range of skills as a Fijian,” Tietjens described Rasari. “Ball in one hand, very quick, a big loping stride. One of the most outstanding Fiji sevens rugby players I’ve ever seen.”
http://www.eventpolynesia.com/news&info/fiji/FJ2_page_newsroom.htm
And Rasari was a 6ft 4in, 104kg lock forward so i would be very surprised if he could beat 1987 World Cup winning fullback John Gallagher, or AB wingers Terry Wright or Eric Rush, or flanker Dallas Seymour in a footrace, as you claimed.
Gary said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
I’d be looking at David Pockock as a contender for a spot.
There is also a youngster in the University of Western Australia Premier Grade side, Winston Cameron-Dowe who can play both forwards and backs who would be ideal for a 7s spot. He was the top points scorer for 2009 and linked well with Pocock when they played together.
Firestarter Bob said | October 11th 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
IOC & AIS money given to the ARU must be spent on 7s development, not 15s.
Rugby union supporters thinking this is going to be a pot of gold for the 15s game are deluding themselves.
At best money the ARU currently spends on 7s can now be spent on 15s instead. But if the ARU do that the Feds won’t be pleased, and the 7s development won’t be better than it is right now.
This 7s dream will eventually become a heavy weight around the neck of RU bodies.
7s is not a spectator sport. It is a party event for the well heeled and corporates.
Shahsan said | October 11th 2009 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
Not a spectator sport? You mst be joking.
Nam Turk said | October 12th 2009 @ 7:40am | Report comment
It’s a spectator sport for those with ADD.
Shahsan said | October 12th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
No, that’s rugby league and Aussie rules. Simple, uncluttered sports with high, regular scores.
Chris said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
and high, regular crowds!
Working Class Rugger said | October 11th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
I haven’t been able to keep up to date with the news of late but first things first. YOU BLOODY BEAUTY. Rugby now has the means to become a truly global football code. The finances and resources this will provide will further accelerate Rugby growth internationally. The next 10-15 years should be very exciting for Rugby as a whole.
As for RL player’s playing 7’s in the Olympic’s. No. Absolutely not. If they would like to then they can covert to Rugby. But don’t expect the huge pay packets. Why should Rugby give spots away to others outside of the game in place of its own athlete’s. The IRB has done a tremendous job to make this decision inevitable. Whilst listening to Total Rugby radio a journalist imbedded in the IOC mentioned that amongst delegates it was felt that Rugby’s presence at the 2016 games was inevitable. So well done to the IRB.
Hopefully now the ARU can seize the moment and create real momentum in terms of the junior development areas in Australia. An area that many have believed to be neglected for far too long.
Tifosi said | October 11th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
WCR. Well done for rugby
I notice at the 2010 Commonwealth games Rugby 7’s will be over in 2 days. Is that the sort of time span it takes to host a
tournament?
If so, will it be a case of blink and you will miss it? To maximize exposure one would think you need the games to be played over as many days as possible.
Also did the IRB have a preference for a host city? I would have thought Chicago would have been their preferred choice to try and boost the game in the USA.
It appears it will be 12 teams in the men and women. Will teams be invited to it ie the traditional rugby countries plus brazil or will they have a proper qualifying tournament so that minnow teams at least have a chance of playing.
Lastly, I can only hope that countries will use proper 7’s players. I would hate to see Wallabies or All blacks who don’t play 7’s make a claim for a squad place just so they can go to an Olympic games. Would be unfair on the guys who play it day in/day out.
Working Class Rugger said | October 11th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Tifosi
The current IRB Sevens World Tour runs for 2 days. But it can be run over 3 days as the 7’s WC currently does. In terms of South America and Brazil particularly. Well its just so happens Brazil is on the IRB’s development hitlist. So in terms of exposure of the game in South America it works out rather well. It will also be in a pretty good time zone for the States aswell.
The 12 teams is the current format the IOC wants. There will be qualifying tournaments run out of the current regional seven’s tournaments that exist.
Angus Boyle said | October 11th 2009 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Tifosi
As Working Class Rugger has just stated the Olympic 7s tournament would be played over two or three days.
As for the details of qualification, I think Mike Miller stated in Copenhagen that they were still to be finalised, as seems reasonable for a tournament seven years away.
In regards to whether Wallabies or All Blacks play I am sure the selectors will simply pick who they think is best for the tournament, whether they are a regular on the IRB World 7s Series or not. This is why I highlight the potential for league players to be included.
Cheers
therealalekid said | October 11th 2009 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
For a further explanation for those who are interested, this is what will happen and the affects it will have on the sport.
To be an olympic sport you have to be a member of an IOC constituent organisation, the IRB is the rugby member of the IOC. The IRB will overhead the running, scheduling, qualifying for the Rugby Sevens that take part.
Any government money will have to go through the local unions under the guidance of the IRB. An example of this is in the USA who sent their application to USOC hours after the final decision was made and will now be members of USOC and be expected to run everything around Rugby. Therefore people previously statinf that the Australian Olympic commitee will be able to dictate to the ARU are wrong as the ARU will be part of the process.
The profound nature of this on are sport is that alot of our home unions who had previously been run on a pittance will now become a lot more wealthy. Most notably China whos Union has been run out of a small college now they will have new Rugby specific pitches, Gym and training facilities and IRB approved coaches. Greg Davey the co-ordinator for for India stated the biggest problem fro development is the lack of Rugby pitches and new pitches will be of the benefit of the whole of Rugby Union.
circus said | October 11th 2009 @ 10:20pm | Report comment
My comment on another thread might be of interest.
“Tifosi
The tournament in Rio de Janiero for men’s and women’s 7s (12 teams each) will take place over 3 days. By contrast 16 men’s teams will compete over 2 days at the Commonwealth Games in New Delhi next year. The compactness of 7s was the strength of its bid. It means that at any Olympics – the main stadium, which is free in the first week of the Games before the athletics takes place – can be totally utilised and to full capacity.
I understand that Brasil has already agreed that Rugby 7s will take place at the 90,000 Maracana stadium, between the opening ceremony and the final of the football competition (and before the closing ceremony). That means with two sessions per day a total of 540,000 are likely to attend. With television exposure that will be a very good result for rugby. The 70,000 Joao Havelange stadium, however, will be used exclusively for athletics.
Over 80 countries participated in each of the men’s and women’s qualifying rounds for the 24 team men’s and 16 team women’s IRB 7s World Cup in Dubai in 2009. The finalists for 2016 will be selected from regional championships – Europe, Asia, Oceania, the Americas and Africa. Brasil, of course will be an automatic qualifier – in any event its womens team is in the top 4 in the world. It’s highly unlikely that Australia’s mens team will qualify as only 2 countries from a region can participate. Fiji, New Zealand and Samoa (not forgetting Tonga) are well ahead of Australia’s rugby 7s team.
Even if Wallabies of the likes of Matt Giteau, Digby Ioane and James O’Connor were to take part in an Australian team, they couldn’t match the breathtaking skills of the Fijians – the ‘dream team’ of rugby 7s. Hopefully Australia’s women’s team which took out the IRB World Cup will continue the good work in Rio.
As to the host city I think rugby is quietly happy that Brasil got the nod. The hardest places for rugby to make an impact are Australia, the United States, Canada and Ireland where they already have confrontational team sports. A country the size of Brasil (190 million) might throw up a few athletes who like to run with the ball.”
By the way I think it is the difference in perceiving space that RL players would not make any substantial difference to an Australian 7s side against a Fijian or Samoan team although a Greg Inglis playing on the wing would be a mighty presence.
Shahsan said | October 12th 2009 @ 6:18am | Report comment
I doubt there will be only two from Oceania.
JimC said | October 12th 2009 @ 3:31am | Report comment
Greg Inglis would be the first name on any team sheet. This isn’t about the IRB. The coach would pick the best Australian players – many of whom would be from the NRL. The sevens specialist comments are all very well. It’s true that players like Ryder, Gollings, Amor, Vito have dedicated themselves to 7s in the absence of opportunities in 15s. As someone pointed out though, a 7s team made up of current Boks including Fourie, Habana, Steyn etc would smash any current IRB 7s team.
Josh Blackie played for a season for NZ and he was outstanding. Then 15s contracts came along and he was gone. He was never a specialist, just a damn good rugby player.
A team of NRL players – say Hindmarsh, Luke Lewis as forwards – Inglis, Slater, Thurston, Stewart, Jennings as backs would beat any current IRB 7s team. Simple as that.
Justin said | October 12th 2009 @ 5:32am | Report comment
Well we will never know so who cares.
Shahsan said | October 12th 2009 @ 6:00am | Report comment
Yes, they probably would — if they were playing RL sevens. Not so sure if they were playing RU 7s.
therealalekid said | October 12th 2009 @ 3:48am | Report comment
“This isn’t about the IRB”
It’s their tournament so it is.
This is a Rugby Union comp for Rugby Union players and it will be an excellent chance for the ARU to show their players in front of a global audience.
Rugby League folk should concentrate on their own tournaments.
Angus Boyle said | October 12th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
It’s a shame that after over thirteen years of professionalism in rugby that some supporters of either code still hold on to their animosity of the other.
The question should not be about whether the relevant selectors pick league players over 7s specialists or Wallabies, and all about the best team for the tournament.
Angus Boyle said | October 12th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
And providing some fun for fans along the way with a 7s tournament between union and league sides which would also be a great selection platform.
Shahsan said | October 12th 2009 @ 9:08am | Report comment
It’s not animosity, it’s fairness.
But I think it will be interesting to see what dual international Michael O’Connor, who coaches the Australian 7s team, has to say on the matter.
Bay35Pablo said | October 12th 2009 @ 10:57am | Report comment
has anyone seen Wayne Smith and Angus Boyle in the same room?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26195486-5015651,00.html
Clearly Wayne isn’t a Roarer ….
Angus Boyle said | October 12th 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Great rugby minds thinking alike again, hey Bay35Pablo!
Working Class Rugger said | October 12th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Angus
I have said this before. Only Rugby player’s should be eligible for the Olympics. If a RL wants to compete then they are free to convert to Rugby. Its that simple. It wasn’t the RLIF that petitioned the IOC or successfully got a member’s seat. It was the IRB, the governing body of Rugby Union internationally. There seems to be alot of ‘piggyback’ suggestions going on. If RL wants more exposure for its game then get out there and do the hard yards. Rugby has and is now beginning to really benfit from it. Sorry to all RL fans out there but I’m not interested to taking you along for the ride. And I think you’ll find the IRB probably has a simialr sentiment.
Angus Boyle said | October 12th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
My guess is that the IRB would have little to no interest in this issue. But you’re right that some people in both codes would prefer league and union players to never meet on the field whlst they remain contracted to separate bodies.
Nevertheless, it would be very popular with fans, and I can think of no reason why the players would not like the idea.
And maybe, just maybe, enough forward thinking administrators, as well as sponsors and television executives, would come together to make it happpen.
Shahsan said | October 12th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Yes, Angus, that could well be the clincher ie TV money. They could insist on an open field of union and league teams, as you sggested at the start, all playing union rules.
Then someone like O’Connor would pick a side, mindful of the needs of the team, while also making sure it wasnt chockful of league players only. Then that team might be sent to a few of the circuit events to hone their game and cohesion, in time for the Olympics. Could be a winner.
Pippinu said | October 12th 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
I think that is true enough – as others have said, players would need to be registered with the ARU to be eligible – that’s fair enough.
But I would hope a situation might arise where a League player who is out of contract (and who has the qualities to excel at the Sevens format), might take a year off to become an RU player in an Olympic year and be eligible for the team.
It might be unrealistic, or fairly difficult to time, but I would hope that an option like that remains open for players who could truly excel in this format (and let us be honest, there’d be NRL players who would have the athleticism to do well in Sevens).
The reality is that it might mean some form of financial sacrifice to take the chance – so we aren’t going to see large numbers trying every four years – but I hope a few can give it a go each time.
sheek said | October 13th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Having read Wayne Smith’s article in The Australian (thanks Bay), I have done a 180 degrees turnaround.
Yes, yes, yes – invite rugby league players to participate in selection for Olympics Rugby Sevens.
As the old saying goes, “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer”. What a brilliant move it would be the ARU. It would neutralise the NRL who would hardly stand in the way of denying their players an opportunity to perform at the Olympics.
It would be an introduction to league players in the basics of union, & as mentioned in the article, help attract fans who might otherwise not bother with union.
Let’s face it, as a recent survey indicates, rugby union sucks big time. We don’t have enough players, we don’t have enough good players, we don’t have enough teams, we don’t have enough product, the game is a s boring as bat shit. In short, rugby sucks.
Quality players can help make an inheritantly boring game look good, like Ella & Campese did in the 80s! So we have to hope talented, athletic league players can jazz up an otherwise boring game!!
So what if the Olympic Sevens team is dominated by league players? The ARU should cop the short-term egg on the face that their game & players can’t cut it, & work towards a long-term solution of excellence.
But hey, I’m only dreaming……..
JT said | October 13th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
While it is an interesting hypothesis – it’s clear that the ARU holds all the cards regarding the selections and there isn’t much chance of them giving the ARL a foot up off of the efforts of the IRB.
That said I think threre will be broarder implications for league players of ‘dual’ nationality who could play for yout Tonga’s and Samoa’s …who knows who is going to turn out to have a Samoan grandma
Yikes said | October 13th 2009 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Forget league, of all the codes rugby should be courting, it’s touch football that should be at the top of the list.
Surely the best touch football players in the country would be perfectly suited to cross over to Rugby 7s. No?
Easier to teach touch players about the minimal contact at the breakdown than to teach rugby and league players speed, guile and lighting handling…
Dogs Of War said | October 13th 2009 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
Not if they can’t tackle. Benji Marshall who came from touch footy had some serious problems when he came into grade with that aspect of the game in League, and really their is even less places to hide on a seven’s field.
Shahsan said | October 13th 2009 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
It’s not a bad idea: Eric Rush, one of the best players to play 7s, played touch footy first for New Zealand. So yes, look for touch footy players with muscle and who can also play rugby. Your average reedy touch footy player wouldn’t last 10 seconds against a, say, Viliame Satala.
therealalekid said | October 13th 2009 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
I’ve read the Australian article in full and it seems to be wishful thinking rather than anything concrete, but it was really a lamentable article. The notion that Austrlia should form a scratch side of Rugby Union, Rugby League and Aussie rules footballers even without them crossing over and learning how to play Rugby would only mean one thing – you wouldn’t even qualify. The notion that a scratch side could beat a well drilled side that has played together and have actually played the game they are involved in is laughable – although I would quite like to see a Tuilagi or Nalaga run full speed into an Aussie Rules player.
It is of course the ARU who hold their cards and and selection is up to them – but as a Brit if they allow other sports to piggyback on their opportunities it just highlights the ARU tendancy to shoot themsleves in the foot. Why should the rest of the worldwide rugby community listen to Australia when they don’t even help themselves.
Working Class Rugger said | October 13th 2009 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
The realalekid
I think outsider’s or at least the unfamilar greatly underestimate the skill and overall abilities of not only Rugby player’s as a whole but especially those who play 7s. Fielding a team full of RL and AFL player’s would be disasterous. You need experience in Rugby and all its aspects to succeed. Not a bunch of mercanaries from other sports. It would be fair to say a SA, Fiji or even the USA would tear them apart.
As for either Tuliagi or Nalaga running head on into an AFL player. Well, not to be cocky but I wouldn’t want to be that particular AFL player.
circus said | October 13th 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
JT
As the Samoan Rugby 7s side is almost exclusively made up of Samoans playing in Samoa, and is currently no 4 in the IRB rankings – behind South Africa, Fiji, and New Zealand (but well ahead of Australia in 8th position) I don’t think they need to be chasing anyone who qualifies with just one Samoan grandparent to make themselves more competitive.
That is the beauty of 7s – it doesn’t require the technical aspects of 15s rugby that take so long to acquire and favour wealthier countries.
Pippinu said | October 13th 2009 @ 10:11pm | Report comment
This is part of what Wayne Smith said:
“Now, if the ARU is smart – which, granted, sounds like the opening line to a Ronnie Corbett joke – it won’t restrict entry to its Olympic sevens team merely to registered rugby players. Throw it open to all comers, to the best and brightest of each code. ”
A few of us have expressed similar thoughts on this thread.
I know rugby fans get defensive about such ideas, but they need to just take a step back.
1. Many view this as predominantly a marketing exercise – rather than what it should be first and foremost: an opportunity to win gold – other benefits will flow directly from that.
2. Many seem to view Sevens as being identical to rugby – and shut their eyes to the possibilities that this format of the game opens up.
3. Following on from point 2, many think that League players are going to have to learn the intricacies of Rugby from scratch to succeed. But this is patently false. Read Wayne Smith’s article very carefully. It points more to the possibility of nabbing talented youngsters (who have dabbled with both codes) and steering them towards a Sevens berth with the lure of Olympic medals.
Now – once viewed that way – then you aren’t just talking about League players – you are also talking about those youngsters who may have been persuaded to going after an AFL career (and there are many now who have that option).
Think about it – you have a bloke who has grown up on both rugbies, then dabbles in aussie rules during his mid teens and shows enough that he could be steered towards an elite program that readies youngsters for the AFL draft – let me tell you folks – you have the perfect Sevens player right there.
Working Class Rugger said | October 13th 2009 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Pip
Please explain how 7s is different from Rugby. I’ve watched quite alot of this particular format and it is Rugby. And frankly I’m getting a little vexed at people trying to differentiate it from ‘traditional’ Rugby. It has rucks, competitve scrum and lineouts. The only thing it doesn’t have is mauls and thats only because it is impractical. It has been around since 1882. It is Rugby, just in a shorter format. I am sorry for this whinge but this is getting very tiresome.
Pippinu said | October 13th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
WCR
It’s fair enough that you seek an explanation – I’ve got no problem with that.
Let’s put it this way – how good would a Sevens team be if I plonked numbers 1 to 7 from the 15-a-side team in it?
I suspect it wouldn’t be much chop. Why?
Because the field is wide open and the game requires great athleticism – certainly greater athleticism than you will normally get from 1 to 7.
Anyway – that’s my uneducated observation.
But let’s see what Wayne Smith says:
“Aside from touch football, sevens rugby is the game most young rugby league players would find easiest to adapt to. The catch, pass and tackle skills are exactly the same, sevens’ three-man scrums an uncomfortably close resemblance to league’s farcical set-pieces and much of the time it’s not height that wins lineouts in sevens but the height of deception. ”
“Indeed, it could even be argued that ball-fetchers like Carlton captain Chris Judd or new St Kilda recruit Andrew Lovett would make the switch to sevens more easily and more successfully than, say, muscular Wallabies captain Rocky Elsom or his predecessor Stirling Mortlock. ”
Now – I’m not going that far – but I am saying it’s not necessarily about “conversions” – it’s about finding people already familiar with rugby who can bring that greater athleticism that Sevens demands.
Working Class Rugger said | October 13th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
Pip
You’re right. If you put the blokes who play from 1-7 they would be rubbish. But 7s isn’t a forward oriented form of the game. A few loosies would be capable but it is more for the guys from 9-15. Sorry but your first point provides very little wieght as I suspect you already knew that. You may be ‘uneducated’ but from your posts you are reasonably familar with the game.
To be successful at Sevens you need experience not only in that format but in the 15 man game aswell. It’s not as easy as it looks. Believe me. I was a rather athletic prop. I could run, kick and step off both feet and pass equally as strong with both sides of my body. Would carve up both in Rugby and League. But put me in a 7s game and I was competent thanks to my experience but never outstanding. And I have seen many League boys try their hands only to realise that it is a very skillful game and Rugby Union experience is a must.
Don’t get me wrong. I welcome young League and AFL player’s into Rugby with the goal of making it to the Olympics. But to think they will be able to do it with first gaining the necessary experience in the 15 man format. And it has to start in their development years. 15-18.
JezNez said | October 13th 2009 @ 11:40pm | Report comment
Pippinu I completely agree that 1-5 plus 8 are unlikely to manage in Sevens but there are plenty of 7’s and the odd 6 who do very well in the seven aside game. Biggest difference once you get to the speed and skill levels required is getting the fitness levels high enough.
I’ve seen others make the comment and I think they are right that most Wallabies would not make it into the best 7’s team due to their different training regime namely fitness requirements. The short halves and open spaces require specialist training – for the same reason most other code’s stars wouldn’t make it either.
Pippinu said | October 14th 2009 @ 7:06am | Report comment
WCR/JezNez
Be assured that I am not saying it’s easy or a walk in the park for anyone – at elite levels – nothing is easy.
But I am saying that there are different emphases in Sevens compared to XV-a-side, and that there might be opportunities to recruit such people at a youngish age who may have an aptitude for the game.
In fact, in both your posts, you are expressly pointing to such differences.
Jameswm said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
What’s the big deal with letting League players try out for the side?
Fact is, assuming the Olympics would be in August, they’d be unlikely to get leave from their club sides.
I think you pick say 4 squads, train them each for a week, then have a tournament. Let the League players in – do you want an Olympic gold medal or do you want to punish League? If they aren’t up to scratch, they don’t make the cut. Ditto for the Wallaby incumbents. That would be only a week off from their club sides, then if they make the team, another week for a training camp and 2 weeks at the Olympics. 1 week, then 3 later. You could possibly have the one week trials in Feb before the NRL and S15 start, which makes it only a 3 week break, about a month before the finals start.
The NRL mightn’t mind, as it would be getting some publicity. And it’d only be a few of their players.
For one, I can’t see how Hayne wouldn’t be good at 7s. Inglis and Slater are two others mentioned. Hayne and Inglis are huge, quick, quick off the mark and light on their feet. Hayne especially would be a phenomenon – beating the first tackle is imperative in 7s. Who are the quickest league players off the mark?
Forwards wise, who are our quickest? Vanderglas, Kimlin and Mumm are 3. Dave Dennis is quick.
Who are the outright speedsters? Turner? Fainifo?
If it was happening I could see a squad like:
FORWARDS
Kimlin
Mumm
Vanderglas
Nick Cummins
Possibly Wycliffe Palu – who would want to see him running at them when they’re tired? He might be too unfit though
One or two more forwards
BACKS
Josh Holmes
James O’Connor
Jarryd Hayne
Digby Ioane
Greg Inglis
Lachlan Turner or Ratu Nasiganyavi
Francis Fainifo
Shahsan said | October 14th 2009 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
We won’t know until we actually see them play sevens. I suspect Kimlin, Mumm and Paul may all be too slow in terms of speed of thought and reaction.
Based on your squad, I would actually use Inglis and Ratu as forwards along with a fast, ball-winning a faster-type of backrower. A good example from the recent past, among Australians, was somone like Cameron Pither or Jim Williams, and further back, Julian Gardner. Even Melon was good but a little slow but you could make up for that with speedsters around him.
jeznez said | October 15th 2009 @ 3:24am | Report comment
someone might have already said it lower down and I am coming in late but – way to many pigs in your side (I was one and forward play is my favourite part of our ‘real’ game. since I cannot play anymore I now coach forward play) in sevens you only want one in six players as maybe a forward coupled with two big backs (A fit Ratu might even let you leave a forward out – certainly Kimlin, Mumm and Cliffy Palu should not be in consideration. Is Cummins the Western Force winger? He could crack it as a sevens forward, definitely!
Chris said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
If I was the Fijian coach the first name on my team sheet would be Jarryd Hayne!
ohtani's jacket said | October 14th 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
God, it speaks volumes about the Aussie mentality that people think a bunch of league players could be thrown together and win gold in Brazil. You’re becoming more and more like Americans every day.
jeznez said | October 15th 2009 @ 3:25am | Report comment
shamefully in agreement
Australia don’t become America! or is it too late?
Jameswm said | October 14th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
A handful given the chance to show if they’re good enough to be part of the team, by participating in trials and training camps.
What’s the problem with that, OJ?
ohtani's jacket said | October 14th 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
I don’t have a problem with it, I just think it’s mindless.
Besides, you fall into the whole trap where you send a Dream Team the first time, maybe the second time and then it gets old and star players start pulling out and skipping the Olympics. Then no-one’s interested because the names aren’t there. And if star players are only there at the Olympics, it doesn’t help the circuit. Personally, I’d rather see regular players go, though I realise NZ has stacked its sevens teams in the past.
The idea ought to be to provide a stage for rugby nations who can’t compete at the top level of the 15 man game while creating stars out of players on the sevens circuit. A gold medal won’t mean much if you send an All-Star team.
Shahsan said | October 14th 2009 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
Well, i would love it if all the big guns sent their All-star teams every time. being only a short event, it’s more likely clubs would release their best players to play for their countires.
ohtani's jacket said | October 15th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Why? It’s a game for vets and emerging stars.
Shahsan said | October 15th 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
I’d love to see the best rugby players, irrespective of age, play 7s at the pinnacle ie at the Olympics. However, I find it unrealistic that those players would play in all the circuit events every year but I think that, come Olympics year, many of the best will put their hands up to join the circuit. Or the circuit calendar could be organised that year with the Olympics in mind.
We have been shortchanged a little at the past two RWC 7s, as most of the big nations haven’t sent the best teams possible. It’s evened out the field a little but I don’t we’ve seen the true champions.
ohtani's jacket said | October 15th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
The beauty of sevens is forging a team from the scraps.
Someone mentioned how Josh Blackie wasn’t a specialist, but Blackie was a guy who was meant to play Test match rugby at the highest level and ended up being an honest toiler in the 15 man game. As a sevens player, he was more than useful. Stack your side with stars, and the Blackies will never get a shot at the Olympics.
Shahsan said | October 15th 2009 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
I agree with that. Many of the best players in 15s will also be oustanding, if not the best, in 7s but there will be a handful who are average in 15s but who are outstanding in 7s (examples include Eric Rush and Dallas Seymour).
And we never know who they are until we seem them play in competitive conditions.
Which is where trials come in. That way, the stars will come through, plus a few no one expected.
Pippinu said | October 14th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
1. It doesn’t mean it’s carte blanche.
2. But there will be the sort of focus on Sevens that has never existed before in terms of a serious national selection policy. We start with a fairly blank sheet.
3. This is not just an opportuntiy to market Rugby. It’s an opportunity to win a gold medal. Win that – and the marketing looks after itself. First and foremost, the objective is to put together a shit hot team – whatever that might entail.
Jameswm said | October 15th 2009 @ 7:47am | Report comment
I don’t really follow OJ.
You’re saying there would be something wrong with Australia sending its strongest possible team to an Olympics? It wouldn’t help the 7s circuit enough?
As I said – not mindlessly picking Wallaby stars, League stars and 7s stars, but having training camps and a tournament to determine who the best are. That’s wrong because maybe in a couple of Olympics not all the stars will want to go?
I can’t agree with that. It’s the Olympics and you pick your best. It’s simple.
ohtani's jacket said | October 15th 2009 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
It’s mindless thinking that a team full of league players will run roughshot over every one.
What I’m saying is that if you send a team full of stars, how is that going to help when the Adelaide Sevens roll around? You’re back to the regular Australian Sevens side and there’s no interest there. I just think it’s typical shortsightedness. Plus it’s cheap and unsportsmanlike.
It basically satisfies the Australian desire to see Aussies win gold on the world stage and see a bunch of stars running around scoring tries. It’s a marketing idea and against the ethos of the what the Olympics are about. From a money standpoint, it makes sense, but it’s like the Dream Team in Barcelona. Great the first time and awful thereafter.
Shahsan said | October 15th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
If the same thing happens in sevens ie we don’t see the best players, then it becomes another pointless sporting excercise, like tennis, soccer and basketball at the olympics.
ohtani's jacket said | October 15th 2009 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
A lot of the top tennis players go to the Olympics. They just have a habit of losing. Olympic soccer has an age limit and rightly so, and basketball has turned into a joke at the Olympics since professional players were allowed.
Shahsan said | October 15th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Yes, the top athletes in those sports treat it as a holiday, a rare chance to have experiences they would never ever have at the majors or NBA finals or World Cups. And to partake of the delights of the Olympic village, of course.
Jameswm said | October 16th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
OJ – I value your comments on here but have you actually read a single thing I’ve written?
Where did I talk about a team of League players “running roughshod” over everyone? where did I even say it would be a team of League players?
For the third time, this is what I said.
Put your top Wallabies, 7s stars and League players together for a one week training camp, ideally early in the season so it doesn’t clash with other responsibilities. Split them into say 4 squads, with 4 separate coaches, but the head coach overseeing all four groups. At the end of the week, play a mini-tournament against each other, and pick the best players to represent Australia. Whoever does the best gets picked, on form alone. Simple. If that’s all the regular 7s players fine, if it’s all the Wallabies fine. Most likely it would be a bit of all 3.
The next point is that you have a philosophical problem with Australia picking its best team, because you aren’t convinced it will help the 7s circuit. What it will do is generate a lot of additional interest in 7s (as a rugby nut I currently have little interest) and show top players what 7s is like. I can’t see any negatives in any of that. The local crowd at the Adelaide 7s might want to watch 3 of the Aussies who won a bronze medal for us at the Olympics, rather than a bunch of kids no one’s ever heard of.
Four years later, you do the training camp again, only inviting those who are fully committed. If only the 7s kids turn up, fine, pick them. If top Leaguies want to be considered, invite them, selectively.
You then go on to criticise Aussies for wanting to win Olympic medals. I didn’t realise that all the other countries went there only to participate.
And you claim it is somehow against the Olympic spirit – sending your best team, I mean. Sending your strongest team is a cheap marketing ploy. Go figure.
Honestly, I think you’ve lost the plot on this issue. I don’t think a single argument you’ve put forward holds water.
If in fact you HAVE read what I’ve said, then it has been your assumption that the League players WOULD make the team, ahead of the 7s regulars and Wallabies.
ohtani's jacket said | October 18th 2009 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
You didn’t mention league players running roughshod over everyone. I was referring to other people’s comments.
For the vast majority of athletes who go to the Olympics, it is a matter of participation. I don’t know the details, but I assume Australia will have to qualify for the Sevens. As far as I can make out, under this proposed scenario the regular Sevens side would do all the dirty work and lose their spots to the glamour boys. Who wants to bust their ass on the Sevens circuit year in year out only to miss out on the Olympics because of some showponies?
Let the Sevens boys have the opportunity to represent their country at the highest level. Try making some new rugby stars in Australia. If Australia can only win a gold medal because they have NRL/AFL talent available to them, it’s not going to look good when the regular Sevens side can’t win and the Wallabies lose. It’ll only fuel the idea that the NRL and AFL have better footballers than rugby.
I don’t see the benefits. Australia wins a gold medal? So what?