To fully understand that result from 15 years ago, we should have to take a look at both teams’ line-up.
Rugby in Belgium back than was at such a low level that playing for your national team wasn’t really considered a huge honour. Basically if you wanted to play, you could. So the quality of the team was really inconsistent. It could even have been a match where Belgium barely had 15 players. That kind of situation was no exception back than. Luckily things have changed alot over the years. There is a much stronger league, there are more Belgians playing in tougher competitions abroad and there is a much better organised home union (more media attention, more money, more fans, etc…). These things combined have made playing for the National team an honour again. So there is more internal competition, which causes the level to rise.

I actually believe that both countries’ levels have risen in terms of national teams. The Spanish are a bit further at club level though. Last year they created an all professional league together with Portugal. At the moment, this is a step too far for Belgium.

Also the Bulls two titles in three years has been bettered by both the Crusaders who had three in a row and Auckland two in a row.

Whilst i agree with you Scotland would struggle against a full strength Bulls outfit I do think you are getting carried away with how good you think this Bulls team really is. The won a final over a team that had a 6 day turn around and then had to play on the high veldt, The Bulls were lucky to even get a home final after the debacle that was Goddard in Wellington. Had the Bulls had to play their final away from home I very much doubt the score would have been so great and I’d go as far as saying they wouldn’t have won. But they did and its history and pure specualtion much the same as the Scotland, Bulls debate

I agree with everything you wrote above. To suggest that Scotland would beat the Bulls by virtue of being an International team is like saying Great Britain would beat Queensland in Rugby League, Australia would beat Manchester United in soccer or that the West Indies would beat NSW in cricket. It just ain’t gonna happen!

But come on – do you honestly think Scotland would beat the Bulls?

I wouldn’t even rate my own nations (Australia) chances of defeating them.

We seem to be hearing a lot about Scotland apparently outplaying South Africa last time they met. The reality is… Scotland lost, at home.

So if you don’t have a profound knowledge of Scottish and South African rugby, why are you making such statements as, ‘the Scottish front row is only slightly better than the Bulls front row.’ Where’s this knowledge come from?

The Scottish front row smashed their South African counterparts last Autumn. This time their only up against a provincial (a very good one at that), but I would epxect the Scottish front row to be even more dominant.

“the Bulls have probably the best lineout in the history of Rugby Union.”

Lets talk about the second row as a whole when Scotland last faced Botha and Matfield, they were outplayed and outmuscled by their Scottish opposition. It’s not definitive logic, but it’s a better way of forging a conclusion through, ‘he’s better than that guy’ etc.

Again, I rate the Scottish back-row and I think it’s better on paper than what the Bulls can offer.

“The Bulls – by virtue of Habana – have a much, much, much better back three than Scotland.”

So because Habana is in their side, it means they have a better back three?

Again, the Scottish back three are very talented. Rory Lamont (when fit) could be one of the best full backs in the world, and has played excellently for Toulon since joining them. Thom Evans is rapidly becoming a very good winger and then you have the two ‘big guys’ in Simon Danielli and Nikki Walker, both who have shown excellent form for their club/regions this season. However, I must admit, their form for Scotland has been below what they are capable of. Then you have Sean Lamont, who’s a fine winger, that lost a bit of form in the last couple of years.

In the centres, I don’t rate Morrison, and they need to find someone else quickly, but they have a luxury a OC, with Max Evans and Ben Cairns both coming up quicklly on the radar.

As far as Scotland being a test nation, obviously they are one (although so are Israel and Zimbabwe!) Being a Test team in Rugby carries none of the kudos that it does in cricket. KO’s logic seems to be that Scotland is a test team and therefore better than the Bulls by default – this is of course deeply flawed.

Scotland have a decent lineout – the Bulls have probably the best lineout in the history of Rugby Union.

The Bulls have a marginally better backrow than Scotland.

The Bulls have World 22 players in both the 9 and 10 positions. Scotland does not – allthough they are both solid players.

The Bulls have a marginally better center combination than Scotland.

The Bulls – by virtue of Habana – have a much, much, much better back three than Scotland.

The Bulls would win – by a lot.

Chris – seems to me that that you didn’t watch that much of the 6 Nations or much of the Magners League last season to make that assertion. Here’s who I’d take out of the Scotland squad for the Ireland squad…..

Evans Bros, Blair, Hines, Ross Ford and lastly Euan Murray who Victor Matfield said would have fixed the Lions scrum, if he’d been available for the tour. He and Hines were originally picked for the tour, and two other Scottish players travelled subsequently – Blair and Ford. So get your facts straight.

Scotland may be ranked lower, but to say they are not a test team says more about your knowledge, than it does about them. And there’s a few Scottish players I’d pick ahead of the some of the current Wallabies too, never mind Wales, France or England.

I think that alone says enough…

“It is contradictory logic to suggest that it is illogical to presume that a test side would beat a provincial side whilst a test side packed with world class players (in your opinion) would beat a test side without world class players” – I had to read that about four times to get a handle on it. Upon reading it fifth time I ask – Come again?

And I am not saying that a Bulls side from any given year would beat a Scottish side from that year – I am saying today Bulls side would beat today’s Scottish side… by a lot!

The logic is simple: the Bulls have a pack which is a terrible scrummaging unit. Scotland has an excellent scrummaging pack. Therefore, that is a weakness that could be exploited. Scotland has an excellent maul and a very good lineout. As does the Bulls. The Bulls has an excellent kicker. Scotland has an excellent kicker. I think Scotland has superior backs to the Bulls. Scotland would beat the Bulls. Further, I don’t keep harping on about the test. I refer to the recent test as the only valid template for what could theoretically occur. I can’t imagine what else you could possibly infer.

‘You do release that losing by four was their best result against SA in 7 games don’t you?’

What does this have to do with anything?

I’m going the use the World XV test for a minute here (not particularly scientific but better than nothing!).

Right now any objective rugby supporter would put Zero Scot’s in a World team.

Right now any objective rugby supporter would put Matfield, du Preez and Habana in the starting team without question. They are pretty much automatic selections. Most – including myself – would put Botha in as well. Some biased South Africans would put Morne Steyn on the XV right now but most rugby supporters (Including myself – an Australian who has no particular predisposition to South Africans) would put him on the bench. Thats 4 Bulls in a World XV and one on the bench to ZERO Scots.

P.S. I’m not sure how many NZ fans would legitimize the 07 Super tournament.

“But sir – Scotland only lost by four!”

You do release that losing by four was their best result against SA in 7 games don’t you?

As for your other argument: “I am offering a logical argument that an organised test team would beat a provincial side which has obvious weaknesses.” – Sure, but that would suggest that Scotland is an organised test team. I think its results recently would suggest that it is far from Organised. It would also suggest the Bulls have obvious weaknesses – you don’t win a S14 with obvious weaknesses.