Do other countries cheat more than us, or just differently?
Roar Guru
By dasilva, 18 Oct 2009 dasilva is a Roar Guru
Australia’s entry to Asia has been a godsend in terms of its positive impact on Australian football. However, one of the problems is that we are facing gamesmanship from oppositions of different culture that we do not regularly see in Australia.
The recent match between Oman and Australia brought up a major diplomatic incidence. We have Australian team manager Gary Moretti accusing the Omani team of cheating due to time wasting by feigning injuries.
This wasn’t the first time Australia has managed to get into a diplomatic incidence due to perception of unsporting behaviour.
We have Graham Arnold saying “Welcome to Asia” after responding to question about the opposition wasting time during the Asia Cup after they played Oman that manage to upset AFC President Mohammed Bin Hamman, as it implied that the entire Asian region were divers.
There was also numerous times during the AFC Champions League where the crowd has ended up booing the opposition team due to time wasting such as the Central Coast defeat to Tianjin Teda where Mariner’s coach Lawrie McKinna accused the opposition side of diving as well as Sydney FC matches against Shanghai Shenhua.
However it is noticeable that the Asian region does not consider Australians to be a paragon of virtue either.
We had the Oman coach Claude Le Roy accused Harry Kewell and Tim Cahill of cheating by continually harassing the referee. The Young Matildas manage to start a fight against the Chinese team during the AFC Under-19 Women’s Championship.
We have a reputation in Asia for being arrogant especially in light of some of the comments from Vince Grella after the Asian Cup debacle where he accused the opposition for not showing Australia enough respect.
There’s also the perennial worldwide perception (not just from Asia) that Australia are over-physical and sometimes thuggish.
The Japanese media do sometimes present Australia team to play thuggish football, the Netherlands complained about our physical style of play during the warm up to the 2006 World Cup after one of the players were injured as well as the French team during a Friendly match at 2001. Even in England, one of the most physical leagues in the world, Australian players have a reputation to be tough and dirty tacklers no doubt help by the reputations of Kevin Muscat, Danny Tiatto and even Lucas Neill.
All of this shows that there is a huge cultural impact that affects people’s perception of what is sportsmanship. Australia tends to celebrate physical prowess and therefore we are very much lenient on physical challenges and dirty tackles.
It says a lot about our culture that when people think of unsporting incidence during our time in Asia, the first things that came to mind was the diving and time wasting and not the X-rated challenge by Sun Jihai that could have potentially ended Luke Wilkshire career during the World Cup qualifiers.
Although starting a brawl is no doubt considered unacceptable in Australia. However there are people who considered the Young Matildas were just protecting a “mate’ who was unfairly kicked on by the Chinese team that prompted the brawl.
After all starting a fight to protect your team mate although not considered acceptable here, it’s certainly considered a mitigating circumstance that makes the action more understandable.
Although there is a clampdown on referee abuse in Australia, there are just as many people who believe that referees are overprotected species.
I believe that in more conservative cultures where respecting authority and the elders are considered much stronger values, abuse of referees a far less tolerated then in countries like Australia. After all, see how much the Omani players accepted the referees’ decision to not award the penalty during that match.
In other countries, time wasting and diving may not be considered sporting but is more tolerated as it shows intelligence, cunning and street smartness whilst they take a dimmer view on x-rated challenges.
So the next time we cry foul of unsporting conduct. Don’t try to get into the moral high ground. Just realise that they are no bigger cheaters than us, they just cheat differently.
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Eamonn said | October 18th 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
It’s not just Asian footballers that cheat..add in Aussie AFL, League, Union, Cricket, Cyclists as well.
Commentators don’t cheat but they are unbelievably bias, be it Channel 7, 9 or 10 or Fox Sports Robbie Slater this week expeosing himself. “No penalty,” he announced to what football fans knew was clearly a strong possibilty and on second playing a definite.
Where were the complaints from the Omani players? Where was the analysis of such a response to this outrageous injustice. Greg Baum in the Age spelt his whole article deriding staging I mean diving in football by the Omani’s and others, no mention of them playing the decision.
When do you see Wayne Rooney and his merrymen graciously accept a decision not to mention his pathetic coach Alex Ferguson. Does he cheat?
On another point the Matildas started a brawl. well this is very acceptable and very Australian. Starting a brawl is very Australian in sport. We love it. Don’t you watch Rugby League or AFL.
In fact State of Origin almost depends on it, and didn’t AFL invent the term second man in!
And has an AFL player ever played so hard, so unfair that his opponent leaves the ground…and the AFL player gets punished….next week. Even the game ain’t fair never mind the players!
And while Aussies seem quick to highlight so-called Asian football tactics ad-nauseum, does the Aussie cricket team play fair across the World or is it just the Indians who “cheat,” and has there been any Aussie cyclist caught drug cheating and of course the AFL boys love to “stage” and there are more than a few who feign injury in the toughest game of all aren’t there.
It’s sport, professional sport, and like life many will try and get away with what they can to succeed.
Even the redoubtable English have serious “blood” problems in Rugby Union as professionalism in the English game catches up with football.
It’s not a football problem or an Asian problem. Ask Ricky (Ponting) Steve (Waugh) Nicky (Riewaldt) Barry (Hall) and Harlequins tomato sauce purchasers if there teams/coach/player have ever cheated!
The world and their sports are full of cheats…but never in Australia? Give me a break!
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Well I was trying to be diplomatic Eamonn maybe too much so. People don’t go around criticising the moral fabric of Australian culture very often.
I think throughout the world there is a consensus of what is considered unsporting. I think where we differ is to the moral weighting we give to unsporting activity is considered cheating.
I’m quite sure those south american believes that diving is cheating as well, it’s just not considered a serious crime and at most a misdemenour.
Although brawls and fights are much more common in Australian sports, I don’t think we think it’s acceptable. We just have a higher threshold of tolerance for it then with other countries.
Fly on the Wall said | October 20th 2009 @ 7:10pm | Report comment
you’re kidding dasilva – Australians may not all be angles but we play hard – how about Ranatunga demanding a runner because he was too fat to handle top level cricket? And all the chuckers Sri Lanka has produced and not corrected their bowling actions? And all the subcontinentals who claim catches when they are clearly not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfLKLgSn3JA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME5jLxEHNt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mk74srFVb4
Just a few to start with.
Pippinu said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Eamonn
I’m not sure why you are mentioning AFL.
In the AFL, the game continues if you’re injured, in fact, it can continue for a number of minutes while a player is in the hands of trainers – so the point is that there is no advantage to feigning injury in AFL. Also, the stretcher only comes on if you can’t physically walk off, i.e. it only comes on for very serious matters, usually where there is concussion, and/or concern for neck injuries.
Interestingly, there is a growing trend not to stop soccer games for injury – a trend I applaud – because it immediatley gets rid of the incentive to feign injury.
This is just one aspect where the AFL has been way ahead of the world game for decades.
AndyRoo said | October 18th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
“Interestingly, there is a growing trend not to stop soccer games for injury – a trend I applaud – because it immediatley gets rid of the incentive to feign injury”
I am a big fan of this trend.
as far as ia m concerned unless it is ahead clash players know when they are hurt enough to require being substitued and can make the signal. unless that is the case play on until a free kick or corner kick is given.
constantine said | October 18th 2009 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
fifa should prevent the stoppage of games due to injury or they should introduce video technology to get rid of this. sad thing is, in australia people use it to derive the sport, in every other country its part of their culture. football got so many supporters (billions) with the current rules that fifa will not be willing to change just to get some afl and nrl players on board. in fact fifa probably has never heard of afl or rugby league anyway
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
I think there is a simple way to solve this issue
Simply stop the clock in any stoppages in play.
When its 90 minutes, the game finish irrespective in where the play is.
Therefore we are guaranteed 90 minutes of football
We don’t need these injury time nonsense
AndyRoo said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
I think it’s a growing trend that the player who lost possession goes down injured to try and disrupt the counter attack.
If people just play on and the ref doesn’t allow them on for 2 or 3 minutes, pretty much what happened against Oman (but it has to happen every game) then players will soon learn.
Interestingly Foz on TWG last night made some good points. Pretty much ever since we have got into Asia we have been whinging about something, refs, fakers, divers, conditions…. Grella and the “lack of respect”.
I htink his conclusion was we should just eat some concrete and harden up and then win some football games.
dasilva said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Agree with Fozzy there.
What other countries do is their own business and an issue for their own country to deal with.
We can’t change their behaviour but we can certainly change our own.
Lead by example I say and don’t whinge about the historionics of the oppositions.
Pippinu said | October 18th 2009 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Das
this is basically the way the AFL does it – 20 minutes per quarter plus time on , meaning that a quarter will generally run for about 28 to 32 minutes.
But this is an altogether different issue – the AFL employs an independent time keeper – which is not the case in soccer.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
That is one thing about AFL I think we should adopt. It shouldn’t be that hard to get a time keeper.
It certainly be a huge disincentive for people to waste time knowing that all the time they are rolling around is not going to make the match any shorter.
Michael C said | October 19th 2009 @ 5:07am | Report comment
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – based on the 2006 FIFA WC, the average ‘actual’ time of 90 min games was a similar ratio to the AFL 2:1 ratio that stretches 80 mins of ‘actual’ time over 120 minutes of elapsed time.
If time keeping were brought in to soccer – the first point might be to decide whether a 90 minutes elapsed time is what is wanted – such that the game effectively be constituted as two 30 minute halves of ‘actual’ time.
Thus, examples such as match 48 of the 2006 FIFA WC in which only 47 mins of ‘actual game time’ was played, would see such a game perhaps stretch to 110-120 mins of ‘elapsed’ time. Without interchange – those players would be totally spent.
dasilva said | October 19th 2009 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Fair enough MC
I wouldn’t mind the time keeper rule with the half reduced down to 30 – 35 minutes
Michael C said | October 19th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
In the first 48 games, the average ‘actual playing time’ as FIFA stats described it was:
1st half : 28.44 minutes. Min : 22, Max : 38.
2nd half : 26.65 minutes, Min : 15, Max : 38.
Total match : 55.08 minutes. Min : 47, Max : 69.
I’m still curious why and how FIFA were conducting this exercise (what ‘time keeping methods/rules’) and why they published the information at the time.
It’s very interesting though.
The worst 2 games were 47 mins.
Match 38 – Ivory Coast vs Serbia/Mont.
and
Match 48 – Ukraine vs Tunisia.
For 3 pool games – the worst were Ghana and Paraguay (51 mins avg), Iran and Serbia/Mont at 51.7 mins and Korea and Tunisia at 52 mins. Australia came in at 30 (out of 32), at 60 mins average. Only Brazil and Japan had ‘better’ figures (61 and 61.3 respectively).
This suggests that on the time wasting stakes – that Australia are far, far, from ‘cheats’. And it certainly suggests that some teams make an art-form out of it.
From my sporting background – I can’t fathom people NOT wanting to do something to rectify it. By not doing anything, the law makers are complicit in the ‘cheating’ – - what is not ‘banned’ is effectively encouraged.
AndyRoo said | October 19th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Food for thought Michael C, very interesting post.
Elbusto said | October 18th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Who gives a stuff about culture? When a bloke dives on the ground and demands a stretcher only to run on the field again (a feature of Football I have witnessed on far too many occasions) then its clear the guy is a cheat.
I dont care whether he is from Tinderbox or Timbuctoo. Its pathetic and its cheating whatever culture you are from.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Of course it’s cheating and of course its disappointing to see other countries do that. I do believe that there should be a stamp down to remove diving and time wasting.
However I think you find that if we put a spot light on our behaviour, we are just as much cheaters as those other countries. I just wish that we put just as much spot light on our behaviour as we do on other country.
Seriously I think the Oman played the game with far more grace and sportsmanship then Australia did during that Asia Cup qualifier.
Pippinu said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:35am | Report comment
I agree – I said elsewhere, that even though I didn’t mind Baum’ article per se (as a well written piece), I didn’t think that the Omani game was an example of any big problem – we’ve seen far worse instances.
Also – it’s human nature that we will hate this sort of thing the very most when we’re the ones chasing the result!!
constantine said | October 19th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
elbusto: again i must reiterate, in your opinion it is cheating. unfortunately you have to convince the remaining 200+ fifa confederations to adopt your view which they wont. although thats what ppl here might think, if we went to fifa and said we think its cheating and they should introduce new rules, fifa will tell us that were basicly nobodies in football that have never won anything significant and point out brazil, argentina, france, italy, germany, england (succesful nations) etc which are from 3 to 10 times our population and say why is it they dont complain. be happy australians dont do it and you will probably never see a socceroo do this.
Pippinu said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
It is about culture – and in fairness to Greg Baum – his article was precisely about that – culture.
We all agree that all sportsmen push the rules, push the boundaries, always with an eye for gaining an advantage (this was discussed at length on another thread).
Baum’s point is that the general Austalian population has a low threshold for players who exaggerate injury to the extent that the game is stopped (and the farce of bringing out a stretcher only makes matters worse).
Baum didn’t refer to other football codes at all in his article.
He did say that Australian audiences, by and large, will applaud the batsman who has to face the next ball having just been hit by one.
He made the point the Australians make a virtue of those who stand up in difficult circumstances, withstand the physical pressure.
He also gave examples of Omani players who were able to do precisely that, and he applauded it.
But his point is that culturally, Australians have a very low threshold for players who feign injury to the extent that the game is stopped, and appreciate sports people who continue playing under duress.
That’s cultural – that’s the way it is.
Is there a racist element? Yes, I believe there is. The Australian population will be far more forgiving of the rugby player that uses a joke shop blood capsule to feign injury than the Arab being stretchered off for no good reason.
clayton said | October 18th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
the short version is –
we complain cos they dive
they complain cos we are thugs
and both are forms of cheating
yeah, its more complex than that, but i figure that is the guts of it.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
heh
That would have been the better article
I guess writing article is 1% idea, 99 % padding huh.
In any case you are pretty much right. That is what the article is about, however I think you need to justify your views using examples which increases the length of this essay.
constantine said | October 19th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
that is true, countries complain equally as much about us
Bay35Pablo said | October 18th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Don’t underestimate the importance of “face” in Asia. Australians tend to call a spade a spade, and be blunt. Where in Asia they can expect you not to say this in public because it will shame the offender, and say it privately later to more effect.
westy said | October 18th 2009 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
Bay35Pablo or not at all. As everywhere it depends who you are. Some Asian countries have such a fine cultural record of being able to freely express dissent like China/Malaysia/Burma/Singapore/North korea/Vietnam/ Cambodia /Thailand. Gee see a bit of a problem there don’t you.
As Gilchrist once said the bloke is shouting at you directly in Urdu and you know it is not niice we are looked down upon for telling him to f**k off.
I tire of this relativism. you dive you feign injury you butcher in a tackle it is all the same. You cheat and should be punished accordingly.
So full of crap. ” brawls and fighting are much more common in Australian sports” Where is your evidence? Do you watch south american football. I suppose the wanton violence / moats around the grounds / Barb wire fences/ onfield brawls/ murder of players does not quite rate. have you actually seen lower french club rugby . it ain’t pretty one village pitted against another. what you think does not necessarily correspond to reality.
personally i think Australians sporting teams have won less well since the 80′s . They were I think better losers and as such better winners. i for one miss that cultural trait. We have lost it somewhat although it still appears individually rather than collectively.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
When have I argued in relativism and that we shouldn’t criticise diving.
I was pretty much saying that australia has no right to have a moral high ground and think we are superior to other nations in terms of sportmanship. I’m not arguing that diving and time wasting isn’t unsporting. Just that we aren’t squaky clean in the sportmanship department. Just like we perceive some of the asian side to be unsporting, they also perceived us as unsporting as well.
Your statement about Brawl and fighting?
Ok you have a point
Well it’s never that simple and I didn’t want to write an extensive essay on the comparison of violence of culture around the world. I do admit that not accurate to say that asian sides as a whole aren’t physical as you can’t generalise many different cultures in one asian bracket.
I do recognise that the chinese national team is notorious for its physicality and dissent in referee decision as well. In fact one of the chinese team pulled out of the national league because they were not happy with the suspension of their players by the referee. Hell that tackle by Sun Jihai was the worst sporting behaviour I’ve seen during our involvement in Asia. The chinese team also have been involved in brawls as well including the famous one of one of the youth teams in England.
SO I don’t believe Australia or western nations has a monopoly over thuggish behaviour. We see brawls overseas in many different countries.
However saying that, I do believe Australia is one of many countries in the world that has a high tolerance over brawls and confrontation on the field. We are also one of the more physical sides in the world in football.
Saying Australia has a higher tolerance of brawl or violence on pitch in comparison to countries like Japan, I don’t believe that to be an inaccurate statement. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t countries that are worst or about the same to Australia as this is a big planet.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 7:05pm | Report comment
The gilchrist issue is a different issue
Generally sport people are asked to live in a higher moral ground then the general community.
It’s like how Adebayor was insulted by the crowds but then got discipline for retaliating.
Generally sportsman in general are expected to take it and not retaliate back.
I don’t think it’s really an issue of cultural clashes there.
Les Murray wrote about that sort of thing here. http://www.theworldgame.com.au/blogs/lesmurray/the-mindlessness-of-adebayor-237712
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
I guess to take the other route
Australian aren’t immune from diving either. I have seen Cahill and Kewell do dive in the premiership. I do believe that Cahill exageratted contact during the World Cup match against Brazil where he falled to the floor holding his face like he had acid poured to his face.
SO it’s not really black and white in terms of one culture practice one form of unsporting conduct and other cultures take another form.
However as a general rule I will say that Australian dive and time waste less then other countries. Do I need evidence for that?
Glen said | October 18th 2009 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
Whether it’s a cultural thing or sportsmanship, all your posts have vindicated what I have been saying about the game for yonks now and consequently been called everything from a racist troglodyte to a moron who “doesn’t know nuthin”.
Feigning { –verb (used with object) to represent fictitiously; put on an appearance of} is exactly that… representing fictitiously ie: CHEATING!
So, from your posts, feigning injury (cheating) exists and my prior posts have actually been accurate. Further, my assertion that the reason football hasn’t taken off here is because Aussies just don’t cop the diving shit is completely warranted!
Anyone????
constantine said | October 19th 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
not really, diving is uncommon and you might see it once out of around 20 games to be honest. if a player is on the ground it is because getting hit by a bad tackle is like being stabbed. the feet and ankles are sensitive thats why football injuries hurt the most. by you saying that it hasnt taken off because an odd game out of 30 or so has a guy diving is like me saying rugby league has never taken off anywhere else because of sexual assault. my point is its not a mainstay of the game, its a one off incident done by an unsavoury individual. to be honest ive seen around 400 games and only seen it happen about 4 – 5 times. when i read comments like the one above i tend to assume you dont know much about, or have not watched alot of football
Art Sapphire said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
This is Dan Silkstone’s response to the rubbish that Greg Baum wrote on Friday.
(I posted Greg’s piece in Fink’s latest thread, if you want to read it.)
The Age published this in the sports section in Saturday’s paper. It looks like he was not happy with Greg’s piece and wanted a right of reply.
All I can say is well done Dan. He is well on his way to becoming a first grade football writer. Unlike Greg Baum, who is not a football writer, he understands the nature of the game and is not handicapped tons of petty parochial baggage.
Here is the article in full.
“The tackled can dive if they want to”
Dan Silkstone
October 17, 2009
COMMENT
SO FOOTBALLERS – sorry soccer players – dive too much, writhe in agony and act in ways that are generally and despicably un-Australian?
Was I the only one who watched on Wednesday night and saw a relatively well-officiated, physical contest in which there were few fouls, little play-acting and some lovely flashes of skill?
Why are we even talking about this?
Surely the days of football – sorry soccer – having to apologise for itself are over in this country. Like any game the world one has flaws and weaknesses, good characters and bad.
Cricketers appeal when they know they should not and claim catches when the same applies. They say things about each others mothers that are most ungentlemanly. For shame.
In soccer, men get hurt, fall over and take their time to rise. The reasons for this are many and complex. It is, traditionally, a game with fewer stoppages – a game played at higher tempo, a game played for only two halves but requiring its players to run for 45 minutes and not 30.
Some of these factors still apply, some do not – that is not the point. The traditions of football – sorry soccer – have developed within the history of that game and make sense within that history.
An injured man is usually injured in the act of tackling, an act that may look less spectacular than the hip and shoulder but which can be far more painful.
A man so tackled has every right to take his time, take a short period to recover, to slow the game and allow everyone to catch breath.
He is one of just 11, in his sport the absence or incapacity of one man will be felt more keenly than in 18-a-side Australian rules.
The game stops when this happens. Why? Because that is the game. In other sports trainers dash on and treat the injured while play continues. In other sports unlimited interchange is allowed.
In other sports men wear skis or punch each other for points or roll wheels of cheese down a mountain. So what?
Those who would look at another game – be it Australian rules or any other – and transpose across the rituals of that sport miss the mark. These rituals are habits, developed over time. They do not relate to courage, or honour or honesty nor anything else of the sort.
If round-ball fans are sensitive it is with good reason. The suggestion underlying the coded assertions is that the soccer player is somehow more devious, less manly, certainly less tough. And therefore, thanks to all of these, less Australian.
Anyone making it might also like to make a dark alley appointment with the likes of Kevin Muscat or Danny Tiatto.
Soccer lovers are right to be suspicious of those who press such claims. They have seen them before, too many times.
So soccer players can be tough, but they can also be downright sissies when it comes to taking a knock and taking it like a man. Can’t they? What about that flashy blonde guy who limps around and bawls like a baby every time he cops a bump. No, wait, that’s Nick Riewoldt.
Football does not need outsiders to correct it; football is bigger than that, impossibly big. For every writhing actor there is a Muscat or Tiatto – inclined to stand over a prostrate player and tell them in no uncertain terms why they should get up. For every cynical coach who milks such situations there are four who would not.
The world of the world game encompasses hundreds of traditions, of styles, of cultures. It is sprawling, organic and relatively uncontrollable. Thank god.
Australian football, again, is something else: it is phenomenally successful within a small market, it is tightly controlled by the frequent edicts of its governing body. Just different, that’s all.
Whose task will it be to explain to the young men of the Middle East, or South America or wherever that they should not play the game as they always have because it offends a small group of Australians?
And is staying down when injured any more dishonest, say, than booting the ball into the post and claiming a goal, as Tom Hawkins did in the grand final? Than a coach lying about team selection and springing a surprise injury replacement during the warm-up? Than locking the ball under your opponent, sticking an arm in the air like a rodeo rider and begging the ump for holding the ball?
These falsehoods make sense in one game but not in others. Different games have different quirks, that is just how it is. Those who would look at football and wish it were something else might just as well ring up Coca Cola and ask why Sprite does not taste more like my nana’s homemade lemonade.
It doesn’t because it isn’t, it is something else.
Soccer does not need nor want to be Australian rules football. Why would it?
And if you follow trends — map the tactical development, the use of zonal marking, the importance of space and possession and, yes, even the dreaded simulation – soccer won’t be becoming more like Australian rules as the years pile on. The truth will be quite the opposite.
Redb said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
Always suspected Silkstone was a round ball urger.
For the record I’ was surprised that Baum’s article deteriorated into poor form cliche’, but to an extent his comments reflect what many non soccer folk think at times at some of the antics on the field by Asian and Sth Amercian nations.
Baum could have been more understanding but then again faced with a soccer friendly sports editor at the AGE, the code war is getting hotter again.
Art Sapphire said | October 18th 2009 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
As I said redb, good on on The Age for publishing Dan’s piece.
Dan would have read Greg’s piece and thought it needed some redress.
Non-soccer folks also need to read the thoughts of a football writer.
Anyway, Greg set himself up and it was certainly returned in spades.
Redb said | October 19th 2009 @ 6:55am | Report comment
Dont know about returning in spades, Silkstone’s piece whilst a fair enough alternative view came accross as a little too sarcastic than needed almost child like. Qu. Does he write with one hand perched by the thumb on his nose, (fingers fluttering) ?
Redb
Pippinu said | October 19th 2009 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Dan’s is a good article, but:
1. Greg Baum never mentioned Australian Football once.
2. Dan does not appear to be accepting of Baum’s general proposition that Australian audiences applaud sports people carrying on under duress, and are not enamoured of sportspeople feigning injury in order to stop the game – to the extent that they are unnecessarily carried off on a stretcher.
3. The fact remains that Australians are free to reject that cultural aspect of the game if they so desire.
Vicentin said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Pip, you know that Baum never had to mention Victorian (AFL) football – in Victoria it is the herd of elephants in the room, and clearly from where Baum is (most) coming from. It is being too precious on your part to point out Silkstone’s reference to it – or did I get it wrong and he’s really a Badminton kind of guy?
Good article by Silkstone – hope to read more from him.
Pippinu said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Vicentin
this was my very first reaction to reading Baum’s article, which I put up on Jesse’s last thread:
“The only problem I have with Greg Baum’s article is, as Art says, I don’t think the Omanis laid it on at all – I reckon they were fantastic in that first half – and made us look silly. But I also agree with Michael Lynch’s blog – it’s actually a very well written article, and raises legitimate questions about Australians, our association with sport, our culture – these are legitimate questions – people would be silly to dismiss these sorts of observations.”
There is a legitimate discussion to be had here about the general Australian attitude to sport, and Dan does not appear to address this at all.
Once again, I don’t think the Omani game was really a great example to base an article like Baum’s on – and I’ve also written elsewhere that I suspect he was waiting for the right moment to to unleash his chalk and cheese analogy, and he thought the Omani game might be it..
But that aside, we can’t ignore a general Australian dislike to players feigning injury and stopping the game.
Of course, we can’t expect the rest of the world to change – Dan is correct – the game is far too big for a hope like that – but we can legitmately question whether Australians will ever be accepting of that sort of culture in the game.
Art Sapphire said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Some accuracy please Pip!
What Lynch wrote had nothing to do with the article.
He wrote that on the day before on his blog the before it was published.
We really don’t know what Lynchy thinks of the article
He was just responding to the question below from a reader.
I will print the post in full.
Posted by: Raul Rekow on October 15, 2009 1:26 PM
Just wondering who is Greg Baum and why does he have to always write negative rubbish about FOOTBALL…It is the international game, we are part of it, we are doing well and we need more positive approaches all round. Thanks for your great contribution and support of the game.
All the best,
Raul
Lynchy – Greg Baum is a Walkley Award winning sports writer and rated by his peers (including me) as one of the top sports columnists in this country.
Greg is a huge football fan. But he writes it as he sees it. We as journalists are not here to provide pump up positivity. We are not part of the marketing or promotional arm of the FFA or anyone else for that matter. If increased coverage of the game helps it grow, that’s fantastic. But our first responsibility is to our craft and professionalism, and if that means criticising an aspect of the game, so be it. Greg is one of the best in the business.
Michael Lynch
Vicentin said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:38am | Report comment
But Pip, that may all well be true but as Das (and other) points out in his opener why do Australian’s think they can take the high moral ( and macho) ground on this when there are so many facets of other sports we participate in that are just as ugly – simulation happens in your code too and other forms of cheating etc. It is high hypocrisy! So why do AFL and League (and Union – I’m looking at you Fitzsimmons) writers have to go out of their way to bag aspects of my code? If Baum had included examples of poor form in other Australia sports then I’d consider it a “well considered” piece about ….something else rather than a sly dig at football, and christ I’ve lived through enough decades of that. I shouldn’t get drawn in to this – I’ve got other and better things to do .
Redb said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Silkstone writes a quite few articles about Australian football (AFL) as well and is showing his preference – even Michael Lynch credits Greg Baum as journalist not a fan. My read of Lynch’s reply would suggest that unlike Baum, Silkstone has written this as a fan and it shows.
Redb
Pippinu said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Vicentin
I’ve already agreed with Art on another thread that there’s no shortage of hypocrisy going around.
In fact I closed one of my posts with a comment along the lines that when it comes to gaining and advantage, Australians are far less forgiving of wogs doing it on the football pitch.
But all that aside – is Baum having a go at your preferred sport – or is he actually paintng a sociological picture of general Australian attitudes.
I honestly think there’s a big difference.
Also, it’s not uncommon for someone like Simon Hill to get stuck into wogs writhing around the grass in pain and stopping games unnecessarily.
Art Sapphire said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
How many time do I have to tell everybody. What Lynch wrote had nothing to do with Baum’s piece on Friday. He wrote it on Thursday in response to a readers general question.
We don’t know what he thinks.
Please note that Silkstone’s piece was headlined as a COMMENT. It was an clearly opinion piece.
Redb said | October 19th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Art,
So what is Greg Baum’s article if not opinion? – fact, perception, anecdotal, imperial survey results?
Redb
Art Sapphire said | October 19th 2009 @ 10:13am | Report comment
redb – Baum got his opinion piece printed as the lead story. Silkstone’s was tucked away
under the Adelaide v Sydney match report. Anyway, its heartening to see that The Age has more than one writer who can write about the game. That’s what you call progress
Robbos said | October 19th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
I totally agree with you Vicentin, for years, no decades football has copped it from AFL & RL writers & recently yes RU writer (Fitzsimmons). During these decades, you heard a lone voice far in the distance complaining about these attacks on our game, but noone cared.
Now football has become more prominent & this lone voice is no longer alone nor are they in the distance especially after WC06. However, we are now being told we are all so over sensitive, these writers also criticise our sport (ala Rebecca Wilson).
As Football becomes a little brasher & a few of our writers are brave enough to question the current strong football codes in this country, these same bloggers who told us that we were being far too sensitive to a little criticism, are now all up in arms by a few negative comments about their sport from the likes of Foster & Simon Hill.
Michael Lynch is a good football writer, but he is smart enough to know he writes for a Melbourne paper that has AFL on the front, back & middle, he is not going to cause a code war.
westy said | October 18th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
Da Silva i agree cheating is cheating. i actually thought Oman came to play and did so. They played some positive football.i just get lost with all this cultural mumbo jumbo in sport. You and I are aware of the diverse range of football in asia .
Football is not soft. China is a physical team as the Koreas can be . japanese midfielders tug on the jerseys with great skill. Uruguay can play a very physical game at the back and those magicians of the round ball Brasil have a physicality about them that can be intimidating. The Omani central defender was not greatly skilled but was as physical as anyone on the park.
FIFA outlawed diving and feigning injury not because it is a cultural practice of any one football nation but simply because it was cheating.
You see it is up to referees to consistently enforce the international rules .
Dan Silkstone also does himself a disservice when he asks who will explain to young middle eastern men that the way they play offends a minority of Australians. It is not offensive but it may be abreach of FIFA rules.
I watch some south american club football and i think out right feigned diving has declined in South American football. I also view some Dubai club football and to be blunt the referees let them get away with a little too much. It does become a problem for some middle Eastern teams on the international stage. There have been complaints by European and African teams .
The problem stems not from culture but the leeway or interpretations of local referees in their local club leagues.
It is a matter of consistent refereeing. FIFA go to great trouble in world Cups to have the most consistent referees. prolific diving is a dangerous pastime on such occassions.
By the way the Australian manager should have kept his mouth shut.
dasilva said | October 18th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Fifa has outlawed it as it is cheating
But only as a yellow card offence
To FIFA it is cheating, however it is considered less cheating then, let say handball to deny a goal scoring opportunity or a foul with the last man etc
I think you are underestimating the influence of culture. I will argue that diving inside the box should be a red card but objectively (with the laws of the game), diving is pretty much is considered a misdemenour. Until it becomes a red card offence, it will continue on be considered a misdemenour in some countries instead of blatent cheating.
However culturally for Australia, diving and time wasting is considered blatent cheating that is far worse then some of the red card offence I mention before.
I do think that culture has a part in how much a country consider how bad diving is perceived by the population.
_______
About physicality. Yeah the Uruguayan certainly are notoriously physical side. Just ask Ray Baartz.
BigAl said | October 19th 2009 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Is ‘sledging’ considered cheating ?
If it is, ( and I think it should be ) then I’m afraid us Aussies are the possible creators and certainly masters of one of the nastiest forms of cheating in any sport !