By macavity -
October 25th 2009 @ 12:56am
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Loading ...It’s time to be realistic on the ARC
There has been a lot of talk on the Roar about establishing another national Rugby Union competition. I think it is time to be realistic about the strengths of Union in this country.
My favourite game is Rugby League. I will watch pretty much everything involving a ball and grass, but it is the greatest game that is in my heart. Being from Newcastle, it is probably in my DNA too.
That I am a League boy immediately gets me labelled a troll when posting on Union issues, and truth be told after all the dastardly things the upper class game has done to the working class game over the years, it is hard to have sympathy for Union.
The only reason I do have sympathy is that I know there are good honest people out there who just happen to love fat blokes lying about in the mud, and blonde haired boys named Lachlan and Angus kicking from the deep. And I have sympathy for them.
That smidge of sympathy is why I’m here giving you Union fans the brutal truth.
My balanced outsider’s view of Union’s strengths and weaknesses is as follows:
Strengths:
- Strong links to universities and private schools.
- Strong old boys networks – which it leverages to get sponsorships larger than what it can substantiate on viewing numbers and popular interest.
- Clubs steeped in history and culture.
- Appeal to recent arrival Saffas, Kiwis and Poms.
- Influence in the media that far outsizes its popular interest.
- Strong (but fading) international appeal and a strong (but in danger) provincial Rugby comp.
- It has massive snob appeal. A proclaimed interest in Rugby (as opposed to that vulgar working class game) is a big ego/status boost for many snob types.
This snob appeal also helps it in “non-Rugby” states. It is not uncommon for Victorians to proclaim a hatred for League whilst proclaiming that they love Union – all without being able to actually tell you the difference between the games.
Weaknesses:
- Union does not have a tribal appeal to anyone but those in a few postcodes. It has to realise this can not be manufactured (witness the last attempt at an ARC).
- Union does not have a particularly appealing TV product – the beauty in the game is in the playing, not the watching (while I am League boy I really enjoyed playing the odd game of Rugby in my teens, it is a physically far less demanding game and therefore allows much broader participation).
- Union does not have strong grassroots involvement or interest in the areas most people in Australia live, but which it would like to claim (meaning anywhere outside a few wealthy pockets in Sydney, Queensland and the ACT).
- Union does not have a bucket of money anymore – a particularly terrible administrator pissed it up against a wall chasing instant success.
So where does that leave Union?
The Roar Union zealots in here seem to favour going on the attack (with money the ARU does not have) when their game in this country is bordering on irrelevance.
And why is it bordering on irrelevance?
Terrible administration at all levels and a game lacking the appeal (fast movement, big hits, spectacular athleticism) of what are far and away Australia’s favourite codes in the NRL and AFL.
The ELVs were the key to making the game more than a cure for insomnia – and got trampled by northern hemisphere imperialism.
The bucket of money from the 2002 World Cup was the key to a sustainable and growing ARU – and it got pissed away by delusional megalomaniacs who greatly overestimated their worth.
Until Rugby fixes its game and fixes its administration, it will never go anywhere in this country.
Until it has tribal appeal, it will never have a successful ARC type comp.
Due to its upper class origins and the success of the (more spectacular and inherently tribal) working class games in Australia, it probably never will have widespread tribal appeal.
All that doesn’t mean it’s time to give up – far from it. What it is time to do is carve a niche and expand that niche organically.
Union is never going to win a head on battle with the three much larger football codes. Any attempt to do so is only going to drain the ARU further and may well spur the other codes, particularly the NRL, to counter-attack. A properly funded and aggressively administered NRL could well deal out some significant blows to Rugby Union.
It is time to take a more strategic, long term approach to growing Rugby.
If I were an ARU administrator, there are two things I would be doing.
Number one is bound to be controversial and may not be realistic, but I’m throwing it out there. The ARU needs to insist on the ELVs, and the northern hemisphere cartel be damned. Three of the five top Rugby Union nations in the world are in the Super 14/15.
It is time to lean on our Saffa and Kiwi brothers to save the game from the men who smell of rich mahogany. Get the Argies on board, appeal to French flair, and ram them through. If they won’t play nice, think about breaking away from the IRB. The relevance of the game in Australia depends on it.
Number two is simply that I would be focussing on what Rugby does best, and what has served it for over 100 years in this country – private schools, universities and historic clubs.
The very things that certain Rugby administrators have been very good at ignoring.
Kurtley Beale is a great example of my preferred approach. The ARU should be using the lure of a top-flight education to nab as many young top-flight athletes as possible.
Put any money they have into targeted scholarships to GPS schools. You get the kid, you get the family – so you build a grassroots support network.
Get the kids and parents involved in their local Union club, and use those clubs to form an end of season club championship. Say the top three clubs from Sydney, top two from Brisbane and one to be determined by an affiliated states knock out. There is your “third tier”.
It may take 10 years, but it will solidify Union’s strengths, win the one by one battle to get kids playing the game and parents interested in it, and (eventually) lead to a competitive Wallaby team, which, let’s face it, is the only time anyone outside of the eastern suburbs of Sydney cares about them.
People caring means more dollars. More dollars means more investment in the future of the game.
It may well be short term pain for long term gain.
Manufacture another ARC and prepare to be the next Australian Baseball League. Too much way too soon.
Start at the ground up and Rugby Union may actually have a future in this country.
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(71)
Wally James said | October 25th 2009 @ 1:39am | Report comment
macavity
Fabulous analysis.
The only thing with which I disagree is “The ARU needs to insist on the ELVs, and the northern hemisphere cartel be damned.” The ELVs made us a poor man’s League. League and VFL are good games and they attract their own. But Rugby is different to that and should remain so. The ELVs made us an unlimited tackle League clone. If we cntinue on that path our identity is lost.
Cheers
Wally
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Thanks Wally, my first stab at a Roar article seems to have been suitably polarising!
On the ELVs, I can accept what you say RE identity. I guess the question is that you either want to make the game good viewing with all the opportunities that brings, or want to remain very distinct and a game for the players.
A question to ponder – what happens to Oz Rugby if/when SA and NZ want to dissolve the super 14 to concentrate on their onw club comps?
Knives Out said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
But the general consensus was that the ELVs made rugby unwatchable at the highest level.
Billo said | October 25th 2009 @ 3:34am | Report comment
As a rugby man who enjoys watching league, I too find it hard to fault this analysis, which basically means playing to rugby’s current strengths, rather than future imagined ones.
I do agree with Wally, though, that there is little point in making rugby just like league when you have the real thing on your doorstep.
mcxd said | October 25th 2009 @ 4:44am | Report comment
Not a bad article, pity you couldnt leave your Union prejudices out. However, some may argue that is the exact reason why Union is in a bother at the moment in that it has relied solely on those traditional paths of Private schools, universities, club rugby etc..
Times change and over the last decade or two many things have changed. The arrival of Cable TV and even free to air has given us so much more choice on what we can watch including not just a wider variety of sports from Aust but overseas as well. The increase in amount money being thrown about in sports now is frightening. My point is that this has now resulted in alot more competition for spectactors and the players themselves. The ARU can’t afford to rest on its laurels (sit with its thumb up its a….) and rely solely on those traditional paths.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
My point was not that Union should “rest on its laurels” – it was that Union is not maximising its strengths and is instead chasing pie-in-the-sky stuff (like an ARC) which is harming it.
The big codes in Oz do the grassroots very well. AFL and RL are woven into the fabric of cities and towns across the nation. RU needs to focus on doing the same where it can – and where it can is where it has a foot in the door.
JK said | October 25th 2009 @ 5:37am | Report comment
Tempting………..but I’m not goin to bite!
Robbo said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
A really good article. Harsh, but probably fair.
Brumbie fan said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:57am | Report comment
It’s ok let’s just play our own sports like the Americans. Just have afl and nrl. Never have opportunity to win world cups. Sounds wonderful. If you can’t tell I’m being sarcastic! Split from IRB, this is the stupidest thing I’ve heard. Let’s have 3 rugby codes just for the sake of Australian rugby. League supporters are now writing our stories for us. Makes me wonder why they bother, seeing our code is in complete trouble they say.
Well I couldn’t give a crap what anyone says. I saw league go through it’s problems and soccer, still they have their problems. And if union is followed by the educated and league is followed by working class then parts of this story can jump off a cliff.
Robbo said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
If Australian rugby continues down its present path it will never win another world cup anyway.
It does seem that you could “give a crap” what people say, given you took the time to write such a “passionate” rant in response.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
did I just hear a dummy hit the floor?
not giving a crap what anyone says is what got RU into this funk in the first place.
Chris said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
“Brumbie (sic) fan”, as a fellow fan of the mighty Brumbies (Brumby in singular) could you please stop embarrassing your fellow fans in attaching the fine name of the club to your not-so-fine posts.
michaelunt said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:01am | Report comment
This is a very good article and I speak as a Union man who played the game for 30 years.
What destroyed Rugby is the loss of rucking. Once the players lost control of punishing the player deliberately killing the ball the game got tangled up even further in Referee interpretations.
The current rules are poor and the scrums are diabolical (does any referee really have any idea who to penalise) but the real issue for me is that cheats prosper when you cannot remove them with a few skid marks down their back.
Pippinu said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:38am | Report comment
“played the game for 30 years”?
don’t you still play in Tassie?
So your proposed solution is to encourage players to stomp on one another with their studs?
Mark Young said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
“So your proposed solution is to encourage players to stomp on one another with their studs?”
Yup
That would reduce the number of penalties considerably and force the players to play by the rules.
Brumbie fan said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:14am | Report comment
If our game is in so much trouble how come super 14 teams all averaged around 20000 people per game in Australia, and they all were losing teams. Reds have been on bottom of table for years now. When they start winning, watch out league supporters. I myself follow others codes when my team is losing. Welcome to Australia people we follow winning teams not losing. Union is just quiet for now. Stop looking into so much I find it annoying!
michaelunt said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Mate I have followed the game for 45 years and played it for 30 of those.
It is in diabolical trouble.
The game is unwatchable. I went to the Bledisloe in Sydney and the crowd noise got louder as the game went on but it was chatter through boredom.
The Super 14s were unwatchable this year and the television ratings abysmal. And the crowds are declining. Participation rates have dropped and moral in the State Unions is at an all time low.
The game is riddled with problems. I have never seen it in a worse state.
Dogs Of War said | October 25th 2009 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Only one Australian Super 14 team averaged over 20K this year. Given that their are limited opportunities to watch them, and they have the whole state to draw from, it is very disappointing.
NSW Waratahs 23,872
Queensland Reds 18,572
Western Force 17,858
Brumbies 16,625
True Tah said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:22am | Report comment
“Leaning on our Saffa and Kiwi brothers”
Macavity, we already depend on them too much, and already we are testing the friendship.
Comments by certain Australian rugby “journalists” about the “struggling” Air New Zealand Cup have not been well received in New Zealand. This was before Southland won the Ranfurly Shield from Canterbury, qualified for the semis and were met by thousands of people in Invercagill.
MyGeneration said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
The idea of an end-of-year club championship to solve the third tier problem seems particularly sensible (and therefore doomed). Use the infrastructure you have instead of all the elaborate plans to create an infrastructure that doesn’t exist. And you’re giving Brisvegans an instant chip for their shoulders by giving them only two spots to Sydney’s three
Brilliant marketing! Seriously, with all the hand-wringing about a third tier, you’d think this would at least be something that could be implemented in a short time frame, even if it’s not the long term solution.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 9:04am | Report comment
could even involve country champs (or country/group rep sides) in the championship – involve and empower the grassroots.
Bay35Pablo said | October 25th 2009 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Given Brisvegas’ participation numbes are lower than Sydney’s the ratio is about right.
Total NSW participation numbers in 2008 (ARU Annual Report) – 75,374
Total QLD – 46,848
Brumbie fan said | October 25th 2009 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Around 20 I said and we all know it’s majority followers around cities do I have to point out ABC!!!!
Dogs Of War said | October 25th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
You are allowed 10 minutes to edit your post so it makes sense. I suggest you use it.
Mark Young said | October 25th 2009 @ 9:59am | Report comment
You have hit the nail on the head…
Unfortunately, as much as we in Aus can see what a bad place Rugger is at the moment, in Europe it is going gangbusters with massive interest and huge crowds. So maybe forcing the hand of the IRB is the key to this…
Michealunt is on the right track, as soon as the power of punishment for illegal play was taken from the players, we got this farcical kick fest which infects the game.
And I don’t understand what Brumbie Fan meant with the ABC either.
westy said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Macavity thankyou for your thoughtful article. For those who actually consider its message it has a well disclosed bias but is not anti rugby union. On the contrary it does highlight some of our perceived and real shortcomings.
It is no good playing the three monkeys trick speak no evil say no evil hear no evil and it will all go away.
I come from a school of thought that the split in Australia was heavily contributed to very well paid or reimbursed administrators from very narrow backgrounds disconnected from ordinary working players refusing or confusing genuine claims from genuine threats until it was to late. this was then taken advantage of by some. Remember Sydney Uni never one a comp until the 1920’s.
Teams like Glebe and Balmain were regularly complained about.
My problem is Macavity is that when I went to school the existing state schools in western sydney all had a first XV. They mimicked the private schools. This is not an anti private school rant. The exact opposite actually. In the 1960’s /70’s over 65% of High school students attended state secondary comprehensive High schools . The quality of these schools was relative to their private shool counterparts generally higher than the poorer Catholic systematic systems and much closer then now to their elite school counterparts
Many exservicemen schoolteachers in stste high schools ensured the tradition of state high school first XV. It is little appreciated that the graduation of these state high school rugby players in the 60/s/70.s and early 80.s saw the rise of Eastwood and especially parramatta as powerful rugby clubs winning grand finals.
The decline in students attending such state high schools (still 55%) and the increase in private schools and the now marked distinction between the old elite schools and state schools has seen rugby union fall away in stste high schools.
Secondly and of more concern to rugby union is that the increase in numbers at private schools are not from a rugby union playing background or culture. Contrary to all the participation nonsense rugby union has actually declined in private schools.
Unless rugby union begins a concerted campaign in schools to broaden its reach it will become even more elitist not only in perception but reality
Onceinawhile said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
“My balanced outsider’s view of Union’s strengths and weaknesses is as follows:”……… hmmmmmmm
This does’nt sound balanced
“That I am a League boy immediately gets me labelled a troll when posting on Union issues, and truth be told after all the dastardly things the upper class game has done to the working class game over the years, it is hard to have sympathy for Union. ”
Please elaborate?
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
care to elaborate on how I have not been balanced?
Onceinawhile said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
You mention the dastardly things Union has done to league, what are they? you describe it as one way traffic.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
http://www.rl1908.com/index.htm
get the pipe and slippers, put your feet up, and have a read.
Onceinawhile said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
I’ve only got the desktop, too uncomfortable on the lounge, but hey I am of fan of union so I must be a pipe smoking, slipper wearing snob!
That’s where you lose your balance, I am fan of both codes, I played league years before I played Union and I am working class, yet still enjoy being the fat bloke rolling around in the mud, go figure!
I do however agree with much of what you say regarding what should be done, just don’t like being labelled either a) snob(union) or b) knob (league).
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
bit precious, aren’t we mate.
Onceinawhile said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:42am | Report comment
Yeh maybe precious, but I am a union fan, not a big tough hard working leaguie
Suppose I’m giving you the response your looking for,mate.
Nick S said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Fair enough attack on Rugby union, but lets be serious. Why would South Africa and France want to split with the IRB over rules? You use the phraise ‘French Flair’, but that is just some term you have heard over the years. I assure you France have no interest in splitting with their northern cousins and enjoy all the penalties and scrums that occur now. The same thing applies to South Africa. The sport is part of their national psyche and they are quite happy with the way it is played. In summing up, forget creating a third kind of rugby that would isolate Australia further and remove any likelihood of test matches taking place – our only form of serious income. As someone has pointed out, if people enjoyed the ELV’s because it made the sport like Rugby League… well watch Rugby League.
There is no point defending Rugby Union’s present situtation… it is in a horrible state. However accepting defeat and retreating back to the heart land is pointless. Rugby Union needs to follow Soccer’s example and make the transition to a truely grown-up sport. The A-League and the growing ‘tribal’ nature of the teams has transformed it to the point where we now refer to it as football. Let’s go for a similiar reinvention. Let’s drop Super rugby and build some club culture of our own, this talk of multiple tiers is unrealistic, but I for one would perfer if Super rugby ceased.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Yesterday I watched the French XIII lose gallantly to England. They played with a lot of heart and flair and have improved immensely since the admission of Les Catalans to the ESL. Puig Albert would have been proud.
Maybe the lack of French flair just applies to their Union team then
Nick S said | October 25th 2009 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
I also watched the game and was immensely impressed also, considering that the team is based entirely on Les Catalans and four players from second division teams (or worse considering how you rate the Elite Championship in France?). It was not a comment on the undeniably attractive way the French approach rugby when they choose to. More a comment on their dedication and steadfastness to proper scrummaging, shots a goal and all the other traditional rules that the Australian sporting public seems so much to dislike.
On that note it was fantastic to see France has improved to some degree. Unlike many others I personally wish Rugby League all the best at growing its international stature. It can only help both codes for people to become aware of some form of rugby…
Bruce Ross said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Westy said: “Remember Sydney Uni never one a comp until the 1920’s.”
You mean other than in 1865, 1866, 1867, 1868*, 1869, 1871*, 1873*, 1875, 1877, 1881, 1882, 1885, 1887, 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 12893, 1901*, 1904 and 1919?
* Joint Premiers
LT80 said | October 25th 2009 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
The amount of irrational dislike of Sydney Uni that comes through these forums is pretty amazing. Actually the emotion it seems to generate is more than anything you ever witness from the Super14.
slagger knocker said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Have some respect. Unions still your grandaddy macavity!
Jeff Baxter said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
No it aint – union is as unrecognisable from the 19th century game as is league. Personally i think the rest of the union world should be grateful for the split – without it, it would be an australian and english dominated game as much as union was a yorkshire dominated game before 1895.
kingplaymaker said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Macavity my first point of disagreement with this article would be the absolute extent to which you see the two codes as socially polarised: there is considerable overlap in between which can be developed, and many league fans could be attracted to union even if many couldn’t. What’s more in ARL heartlands, there’s no reason why sports fans should have as strong a social dislike of union as NRL fans.
Secondly, you underestimate how powerful the international appeal to young sportsmen could be. A talented NRL player could easily be swayed into playing union on this basis alone, especially now union has joined the Olympics.
So a national competition would succeed a) because there are fans in broader social areas who could be brought over to it.
b) the game has an international appeal to young players which would be visible to them if there was a clear professional route: national competition, Super 15, Wallabies. So players would be attracted to it.
However, I agree with you on the ELVs.
macavity said | October 25th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
how many professional Union players in Oz?
how many professional RL players?
Bay35Pablo said | October 25th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
That’s the fundamental problem the ARC or third tier is meant to deal with, expand the pro base.
Something which has been flogged to death on other threads.
kingplaymaker said | October 25th 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Macavity is that your reply to my points?
Jeff Baxter said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:39pm | Report comment
Coulda woulda shoulda – are they though?
Bay35Pablo said | October 25th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Clearly I am too fussy, and I disagree this was an excellent article. Showing my union bias.
It recycles many of the issues raised in other articles about union, and raises little new. It just has a vicious undercurrent that we union fans usually are thinking but restrain ourselves from.
The suggestion of an end of season top clubs comp has been flagged before, including by me.
As someone has already said, there is nothing to be gained by sticking to the traditional strengths of private schools, etc. These are weakening, and insufficient to survive as a code. The base has to be widened.
However, I do agree the administration is the major weakness in the sport at the moment. But that is nothing new. The fact that there are so many unions is a giveaway, and one RL has been wrestling with as well. NSWRU, NSW Country Union, NSW Juniors, NSW Suburban, NSW Schools, etc, etc. Think about how much duplication there must be in there ….? But no one will give up their little empires.
To comment more specifically, I agre with most of the comments on strengths, but:
* Old boys network doesnt seem to be looking after us too well. When that goes bad it is called “nepotism” and jobs for the boys. Bundy is apparently reviewing its sponsorship, as is Ford and Vodafone. The old boys had nothing to do with that. If the ratings are there, they advertise. If not, they don’t. Don’t assume it wasn’t gotten on merit (i.e. the ability to rate and sell stuff) and lost on it too.
* Media influence? Union gets smashed most times by RL and AFL. Look at the Sun Herald today. There was more off season articles about RL than the “crisis” analysis of union …
* Fading international appeal. Union is going from strength to strength overseas. Again you are mistaking Australians events for world events. If union does fade in Australia, in 20 years time union will still be huge overseas, where they don’t have RL and AFL to compete. Only football is bigger.
On weaknesses:
* Tribal appeal? Where it is supported yes. But people need FTA coverage, and want professional teams to support. Union was just as tribal in the 1970s, but RL has kicked on since then by becoming fully professional and becoming huge on FTA while union stagnated (the 2 are interlinked).
* TV appeal. Correct, but that is no revelation. Every sport wrestles with these issues too. Union has this problem particularly. However, the NH countries seem to have no problem with appreciating and loving what we regard as unattractive. Perhaps because they don’t get RL and AFL …
* No grass roots? Give me break. The grass roots are the only thing keeping the sport hanging on. What they need is greater support. The ARU etc is taking them for granted when they need to be pumping it up.
* No bucket loads of money. Well, it still has $15m in the bank, although this is less than 5 years ago. Money will never buy you success. However, it is a useful tool. My argument has been how to use it, rather than waiting for some rainy day. Arguably the rainy day is now.
Union fans tend to be a dour gloomy lot, and the other codes do love to bash us. We are going through a rough patch, and it does reveal endemic and deep rooted problems in the sport. However, in some ways that is needed. You are never going to fix those problems in the good times are you, because there is no need? When the good times come back, as they always do, things will pick up again. But we still need change. Admin reform and a viable financial next tier are 2 major issues needing dealing with. The rules and styles of play will change like they always do.
And if you behave like a troll, you will be labelled one. But thanks for aother union article to chat on!
Working Class Rugger said | October 25th 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Bay
Exactly right. Well said. By the way how is ‘Rugby Australia’ or whatever it will be called coming along. Is there still life in the concept.
Bay35Pablo said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:32am | Report comment
WCR, Andrew and I are doing some work on it. Check the thread for what’s going on. These things take time ….
Damo said | October 25th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Macavity,
Some interesting and valid points you offer as a solution to rugby’s woes. But I have to disagree with your analysis of the problem.
Firstly,your comment -”after all the dastardly things the upper class game has done to the working class game over the years, it is hard to have sympathy for Union.” – Dastardly things? Like inventing scrums, rucks and picking up and running with an oval ball? For league to “copy”, sort of.
Next – “upper class game”? Well I went to a school that played league officially yet allowed union to be played in the school colours. It was not an upper class school. It is offensive to those who did not have privileged backgrounds and who happen to have played the original form of rugby to be labelled as participants in an “upper” class game.
Calling rugby an upper class game is very myopic. It is not an upper class game in New Zealand. In fact the history of league in New Zealand shows that the success of rugby there came with rugby’s winning of the Maori and working classes. As well as the private schools in New Zealand. (Spiro where’s your post?)
Macavity, don’t get me wrong. I am not having a go at you here. Your solutions have some merit. I am responding to some clumsy “aussie league” assumptions about rugby and who plays it. I was born in Newcastle, grew up in Sydney and played both codes at school. Several of my cousins played league professionally. I am not anti-league.
But I prefer rugby. Why?
because amonst other things it is the game where a working class Aboriginal kid can rise to play and beat England in Twickenham at the game that England invented! (!984 Grand Slam) -with the whole world watching! . I stress this is only one of the many great aspects of rugby. Others include real scrums and fluid phase of play. I refer to the Ella brothers because their example puts lie to the assumption that rugby is an upper class game. You could also argue that cricket is an upper class game. And if it is why do so many working class Aussies watch it?
Rugby union does not have to be based on the upper classes. Was Ray Price upper class? Was Ricky Stewart? Was Wally Lewis? All Wallabies and bloody good ones.
Sorry about the blue language old chap – I went to a league school.
Jeff Baxter said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Can i just ask in what meaningful sense are you playing the original form of rugby? there may be a continuity in governing bodies but the rules? The first international was played at 20 a side – what happened to that?
Working Class Rugger said | October 25th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Damo
So you’re another Working Class Rugger are you. Boy, we seem to have had a very similar schooling to boot. I went to arguably one of the greatest League schools in Australia. Most of my experience’s in Rugby leads me to believe the this whole ‘upper class’ BS is just a fable. How ‘upper class’ is Campbelltown. The only time I encountered the whole Upper Class mindset is when the border’s at my school started dabbling in GPS Rugby (incidently they now play in the 1st Div of the ISA Comp). Apart from that even when I moved to Clovelly to play under the Randwick banner only a few of the guys in my team and most of the other’s attended posh Private Schools. Most of us were from run of the mill working families.
I differ in my opinion of League though. I quite enjoyed the game when I started High School. But you can only take so many comments about how inferior Rugby is before you lose all interest in the game that was so hyped up at the school.
Harry said | October 25th 2009 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
A few observations and random comments:
Haven’t read through all the replies so sorry if I’m repeating whats already been said, but I think Macavity has approached this from a purely Australian perspective. His suggestion that we need to play under ELVs in Australia regardless of what the rest of the world wants or plays is a false dawn – we already have a game like that, its called Rugby League.
See while union is undoutedly going through its tough time in Australia (poor administration, the adoption and then corruption of the Brumbies once world-beating philosophy, and the fact that we just can’t beat NZ teams any more) it is a truly strong international game. That, and a reliable tighthead, is what will carry rugby through this trough. And if it doesn’t? Ah well, I’ve seen Australia win a world cup and the Bleldisloe, and was thrilled forever by the teams of 84, 91-93, 98 and 01; the great Qld teams of the 70’s and 80’s and the 2 time Super champions from the Brumbies.
12,000 to see the league test in London last night.
constantine said | October 25th 2009 @ 6:58pm | Report comment
wont lie, i know pretty much nothing about rugby; however i agree with the part you mentioned regarding victorians. for some strange reason most people i know have no clue what the difference is (all i know is union has cool looking throw ins and is international) but they prefer union over league.
Bay35Pablo said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
league involves being able to retain the ball when you get tackled, for 6 tackles before changing over. no contested scrums or line outs. union you have to release the ball in the tackle (similar to AFL), and the teams can then try to ruck each other off the ball for possession.
essentially in league you get 6 tackles to get down field and try to score (similr to downs in gridiron), but in union the ball is always to be contested with the chance of losing it.
league has 13 players each, union 15. same sized field.
in union we call the ref “sir”, in league “oi, ref”.
Chris said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:14am | Report comment
and in League the refs address the players by their names – and in Union as 19th century schoolboys deserving to be punished.
constantine said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
can someone inform me (im a victorian so i dont know), does union have a league??? i know theres the super 14 but thats only 14 games
Bay35Pablo said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:12pm | Report comment
The Super 14 is the main professional rugby comp in Australia. With 4 Aussie teams, 5 NZ and 5 South African. Below that there is only club rugby, which is based in each city and the 2 biggest ones are Sydney and Brisbane. the other city’s comps are small by comparison. Probably equivalent to VFL in 1975, but only semi pro and with little TV coverage.
Pippinu said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
Canberra teams have had some success playing in both the Sydney and Brisbance comps (until getting turfed out for being too good).
constantine said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
super 14 is only 14 games tho, that means you only see your team play 7 times a year. thats nothing, no wonder union is down on its luck. shame really. can someone tell me why do people find this code ‘boring’ as opposed to league (again i have no clue), its more free flowing and has the international glamour.
Pippinu said | October 25th 2009 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
Actually – it might be 13 games? (everyone plays everyone once)
constantine said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
lol my bad, thats even worse.is the game actually ‘boring’ or is that the daily telegraph trying to ruin this sport as well.
Yikes said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
You’ve hit on the 2 major stumbling blocks for rugby in Australia, constantine!
1) We only play 13 games. That means 6 home games per season (7 every second year). This is simply not enough for a fan base to be satisfied and live through the ups and downs. If you lose the first 3 games, you’re season is gone.
2) The media hate rugby. The VRU President and The Australian have close relations and so Wayne Smith slags off the ARU whenever possible. Greg Growden in the Herald is an apparent misanthrope and slags off the ARU whenever possible. The Daily Tele has a vested interest in League’s dominance (being News Corp) and slags off the ARU whenever possible. Which is not to say that the ARU doesn’t sometimes deserve it. Meanwhile, no FTA TV networks carries rugby so none have the slightest interest in covering it. Why would they?
The whole point of going to a S15, constantine, and hopefully putting a team in Melbourne, is to extend the season much longer, play until the end of August in 2011. Can’t come quick enough.
Bay35Pablo said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Yikes, agreed on the season. So much for O’Neill’s seamless season from 2011. Will still be threadbare after early August.
I always though Smith was a bit more balanced that Growden, but then it is pretty hard not to sink the slipper sometimes!!!!
Dogs Of War said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
Maybe Constantine you should sit down and watch some games.
Both are playing in England, and all it will take is a few early mornings for you to understand the difference.
Next weekend Sunday morning 1:30am England take on the Kangaroos in Rugby League (Channel 9)
While in Rugby Union, the Wallabies take on the All Blacks next Saturday at 7:30pm (Channel 7, though I suspect in Victoria you will get a late night replay, which means you could probably watch both matches back to back, or watch the match live on Foxtel).
Or if you prefer on the 8th Nov the Wallabies play England at 1:30am (Sunday morning – Should be live on Channel 7)
And just so you know. Plenty of us who like Rugby, enjoy BOTH league and union.
westy said | October 25th 2009 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Bruce Ross this is exactly the type of nonsense that has been promulgated . Sydney uni played in one gentlemens rugby union competition prior to the creation of the District based competition which allowed for broadbased community participation. There were another 3 or 4 Sydney competitions going on.. .. It is the height of absolute arrogance to raise the level of the competition Sydney Uni participated in prior to the creation of the district based Metropolitan rugby Union above these.
. Sydney Uni did not play most district based teams. In fact they refused to play certain teams. It is interesting to note that the Hunter teams wiped out a few of these gentlemen based clubs Sydney Uni played in trials. It is my understanding the NSWRU does not recognise the competitions Sydney Uni won prior to WWI as Sydney rugby premierships.
You know well as I upon the creation of district based competition incorporating the working class players and clubs Glebe was the powerhouse . sydney Uni did not see a premiership until 1919. I think i said the 1920’s. 1919 was such a memorable comp to win given the carnage of WW1. The district based clubs were on their knees trying to cope with the loss of life and players to rugby league clubs without a fresh supply of students.
Bruce Ross said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Westy’s intemperate comment accusing me of “nonsense” and “absolute arrogance” was presumably triggered by me challenging his statement that “Remember Sydney Uni never one a comp until the 1920’s.” I listed 21 Premierships or Joint Premierships that Sydney University are credited with prior to 1920.
He now indicates that he is only prepared to recognise Premierships won after the establishment of the Metropolitan District competition which had its first season in 1900. Despite the information I provided of the years in which Uni finished premiers, he slightly shifts position but now insists that “sydney Uni did not see a premiership until 1919.”
In 1901 Sydney Uni and Glebe were joint First Grade Premiers with the other teams being South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Newtown and Balmain.
In 1904 Sydney Uni were outright Premiers with the same clubs competing as in 1901.
Surely he is not disputing these facts.
I do not know what to make of Westys’s statement : “1919 was such a memorable comp to win given the carnage of WW1. The district based clubs were on their knees trying to cope with the loss of life and players to rugby league clubs.” I hope he is not implying that Sydney Uni players were less involved in the Great War than those from the district clubs.
Yikes said | October 25th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Gentlemen! Truce please.
There are enough bad things to say about Sydney Uni that we don’t have to go back to 1900 and 1919!
(Joke, Bruce I promise!!)
Pippinu said | October 25th 2009 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Geez – sometimes I get the impression that rugby has more factions than the Labour Party!!!
Bay35Pablo said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Pip, Labor only has about 3 factions. Rugby has about as many as …. how many people play or are involved?
fox said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:18am | Report comment
By jove what a bore. Rather!
TigerMark said | October 31st 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
I think you got alot of things right there Mac!
Here’s one for alienating the bloggers. The only way to make rugby a more attractive spectacle to watch now would be to cut teams down to 14 players each. Drop a winger off each team. There are hardly any line breaks these days because the players are all much fitter and faster than what they used to be. You would still have the scrum, lineouts, rucks and mauls that distinguish union from league and that contribute to its interest, and hopefully there would be more line breaks.